March 22, 2024 • 64 mins
I am thrilled to welcome Taraneh Erfan to the show. In this episode, Taraneh talks about growing up in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, recognizing our privilege, how to decolonize our practice, and how to show up human with one another. Of course, we talk about our puppies. We discuss whether it is ethical to volunteer abroad, and we talk about patriarchy, lessons learned, white supremacy, colonization and much more.
I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better. ~ Maya Angelou.
Bio:
Taraneh Erfan is a Registered Clinical Counsellor, Certified Expressive Arts Therapist, published author, passionate poet and yoga and meditation teacher.
Her book Conscious Grieving: The Path of Awakening Through Loss helped me immensely to process my grief after my mother died. I recommend her book to friends and clients when they are in the grieving process.
Follow her on Instagram for insightful posts and beautiful poetry.
Learn more about Taraneh's offerings on her Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
that the healthy relational fieldhad to be, it had to be, a field
that was free of all of theseoppressive systems of power.
So I had to get rid of.
(00:25):
Every aspect of my practice that wasbeing influenced by colonial capitalists,
white supremacy, heteropatriarchy.
It was my job as a therapist.
To become aware of those things and tonotice how those teachings had impacted
me, how I had accidentally taken them onhow I had been accidentally embodying them
(00:48):
because that was not going to be a healingspace for clients that I worked with.
if our role is to hold up themirror for our clients, then
we better be doing it with.
Immense kindness with no judgment withlots of holding and care and openness
(01:12):
to staying with them in curiosityand figuring out tell me, how are we
going to make sense of this, becauseI now see things I cannot unsee.
So I keep thinking about, you know,turning my guilt into gratitude and
(01:32):
turning my gratitude into action.
And part of that is.
Action as, , a citizen of the world.
Like , what am I going to speak up for?
What am I going to speak to?
How am I going to make myselfuncomfortable and what privileges
am I willing to shake off in orderto make the world a better place, a
(01:55):
more free place, a more honest place.
Welcome to conversations withyour Chinese auntie podcast, with
Patricia Petersen, as she has.
compelling conversationswith fascinating people.
When I think about my guest today, I amreminded of the quote by Maya Angelou.
(02:19):
I did then what I knew how to do.
Now that I know better, I do better.
I think you will agree too afteryou listen to this episode.
I am thrilled to welcome oneof my favorite people Taraneh.
Erfan.
To the show today.
In this episode, Taranehtalks about growing up in
(02:40):
Iran during the Iran, Iraq war.
Recognizing the privilege we haveand how to decolonize our practice.
And of course, we talk about our puppies.
We discuss whether it isethical to volunteer abroad.
We talk about patriarchy.
Lessons learned, white supremacy,colonization and much more.
(03:03):
Taraneh is a registeredclinical counselor, certified
expressive arts therapist,publish author, passionate poet.
Yoga and meditation teacher.
Her book conscious grieving, thepath of awakening through loss helped
me immensely to process my grief.
After my mother died.
(03:28):
. Hello, Taraneh.
Hello, Patricia.
Welcome.
Thanks.
How are you?
I'm really good today.
I am.
I have had some time outdoors.
I have seen some clients.
I have done some organizing ofthe week and spend time with my
(03:51):
children and my dog in this moment.
I'm really good.
Excited for this conversation.
Please introduce yourself.
, my name is Taraneh Erfan,and my pronouns are she, her.
(04:12):
I am a first generation, , Iranianimmigrant settler, , living on the
unceded lands of the Squamish people.
I am mum to two.
Beautiful beings, twobeautiful humans, , and a dog.
(04:33):
And I work full time as a therapist anda facilitator and part time as a writer.
Working, continuallyworking on new projects.
Ooh, are you working on a second book?
(04:55):
I am working on like acouple of second books.
I don't seem to be able to figureout what is needing my attention.
So, , I'm working on, , a kind ofnovel idea on the one hand, and then
I'm working on a more therapeutic,, guidebook kind of idea on the other
hand, and we'll just see which onedecides to be written fully first.
(05:22):
I'd love for you to share yourjourney on how you became a therapist.
Oh, you know, before, , thisrecording and while I was thinking
about, you know, what is it thatmight be helpful to share around?
My childhood, but also my, I don'tknow, the orientation of my soul
(05:50):
towards like the kind of work that I'minterested in doing, geared towards
doing, and then have intentionallybuilt skills to be able to do.
So I was thinking about this questionof, you know, what, what has kind of
brought me here . So first of all, Iwas born in Iran during the Iran Iraq war.
(06:15):
And, , for contextualpurposes in this very moment.
I also want to land and acknowledgethe fact that the, , Iran Iraq war was
Orchestrated by the United States andIsrael as, , , they provided ammunition
to Iraq to come to, to war with Iranand it was like a political game.
(06:42):
I think in this time in our humanhistory, it might be helpful to like,
just like land, like little bits oflike, there are connections here around.
If we scope out wider as towhat might be going on in a,
in the socio political sphere.
So anyways.
That's as an aside, but I grew upduring the time of the war and some
(07:03):
of my earliest memories are of fighterjets flying overhead and my parents,
, taking care to use duct tape totape X's on all of the windows in the
house so that if we got bombed the,or there was a bomb nearby that the,
(07:27):
uh, windows wouldn't shatter inwards.
, I distinctly have memory of my oldersister who's three years older than me.
She was in grade one whenthe war was at its height.
So I was three and she was six ormaybe I was four and she was seven.
(07:49):
And I remember that she had to, , studygrade one off of the television
because that's how kids went to school.
Cause we, we couldn't go to school.
It was.
It's too dangerous.
So I remember like sitting withher and drawing next to her while,
you know, from like nine to 10am.
It was grade one from 10 to 11am.
(08:10):
It was great to like, it was likethat, you know, , and so I have
these memories of growing up.
Not just to like blanket statementgrowing up with war, but growing up
in complex multidimensional realitiesof socio political combinations of
(08:33):
things and also living in a countrythat was enforcing gender apartheid.
So very strong, heteropatriarchal.
imposed culture there as well.
And then underlaying all of that,that this ancient Persian culture
that was much more heart centered,that was much more relational, that
(08:58):
was really soft in, many ways.
, and particularly, I say that not tosay that it was like the culture was.
To diminish the culture in any way, butto say that there was this, it wasn't
all edges and no heart like the actuallyPersian culture has a great deal of heart.
(09:20):
And with that comes an immense.
Immensely rich culture as far as the artsand music and certainly poetry and part
of my upbringing was, , really deeplyinfluenced by that because my family
and my heritage happened to come from.
(09:42):
Sufism, , and, you know, for listenerswho don't know what Sufism is, I mean,
of course, a little Google will help,but, , just as a very broad statement,
it's a spiritual sect or faith thatSufism , originates in that region.
(10:03):
And if you have ever read Rumi or Hafez,, you have had some exposure to Sufism.
, and so I kind of, yeah, my earliestmemories are of these cacophonies of
experiences of hardship and difficulty.
And,, the depth of the culture and how wemade it through all of that, , and very
(10:29):
much a relational aspect of taking care ofeach other, taking care of your neighbors,
taking care of your extended family.
, and that really, really stayed with me.
. Until we immigrated when I was 12and moved to what's colloquially
(10:49):
known as West Vancouver.
, To begin with, and then I spent the restof my kind of youth , in that region and
in Vancouver, going to university, etc.
, And I forget the original question, butoh yes, how did I become a therapist?
(11:14):
,When I was a child.
My family would say, and there's like,there's like a light and shadow to this.
I'm sure everyone who has had theirparents say, Oh, I can see you
being a so and so when you grow up.
Like there's, there'slight and shadow to that.
But the story about me was alwaysthat I had such a big heart and I was
(11:35):
probably going to work for the UN.
And I think in many ways,I, that resonated with me.
Like it was very much of interest to me.
, at the university level.
I did end up studying sociology andcultural anthropology with a minor
in critical studies and sexuality,which was part of the women's studies
(12:00):
department so I was definitely alreadylike kind of in that trajectory.
, And then I did spend lots of timevolunteering and working for different
kinds of nonprofit organizations andother types of organizations in various
places around the world, hoping tofulfill this good person checklist.
(12:27):
And what I realized wasthat there was a lot of.
Ego centric, theologybehind that kind of work.
There was a lot of white supremacy, , thatwas embedded in working in those kinds of
(12:50):
organizations as well as a lot of, yeah,colonial, basically colonial mindset.
And , particularly, I think when I worked, in Sri Lanka and in Tanzania, it became
(13:11):
radically obvious that, , actually,this might be doing more harm than good
and , who am I being if this is whatI'm doing and, why am I going along with
the kind of quote unquote white saviorcomplex, even as a person of color.
What does that mean for me.
(13:32):
What does that mean for theworld that I interact with.
How am I showing up honestly, andreally actually being of service.
And so once I got my designation as aclinical counsellor, I, it also happened
to coincide with when I was feeling readyto have kids and wanted to be near family
(13:56):
and decided to , stay put at least inthe region where my family was living
And I think since then I've been.
Working on decolonizing my practiceand my approach to my work as a global
(14:17):
citizen and my interests as someone whowants to make a positive impact in the
world and is geared in that direction,but also in a really honest way that
like a lot of these larger organizations.
Um,
(14:39):
they are not, it's like, it'slike once you, once you enter
the world, you realize that like,without the deconstructive work of.
being aware of what are the systems ofpower at play and how those are implicated
and how they are regenerated and howthey are actually trickling down from
(15:02):
the highest levels all the way down tothe people they're supposedly helping.
If you're not doing thatdeconstructive work, then you just
end up getting caught in the cog andjust being like, well, it's, it's
a sacrifice for the bigger good.
And we just do our bestand hope something happens.
And like, that just wasn't.
(15:22):
Right for me.
So, , I stopped doing internationalwork and, , in 2011, I stopped doing
international work and since thenI have been staying put and doing
the best work I can from where I am.
(15:48):
Was there a distinctmoment that you realized?
Oh, a lot of these systems are set inpatriarchal Western way of thinking,
and it's not going to work for me.
Because for my own journey,a few things happen.
And then I was like, Oh, right,I got to look at this a different
way, because I spent so much timetrying to fit in, trying to let go
(16:12):
of my Chinese culture for a while.
That is a really good question.
Well, the first thing that comes tomind is that I think it was in 2013,
I was a guest lecturer at Emily Carr,, they had a course in, , basically
(16:39):
kind of like art for social change.
And because I'm a certifiedexpressive arts therapist.
And it was actually my thesis advisorwas the professor of that course and
she had asked me to come and be aguest lecturer and to talk about my
thesis project, which was a heuristicresearch project and what it was like to
(17:05):
engage in therapeutic writing and art.
, with Children dying of cancer in apediatric cancer care in Tanzania, and
the work was mostly about how to trainthe local staff in carrying on a kind
of therapeutic arts and play program.
Once I left.
, and I presented it I had beeneducated in a international.
(17:36):
, University in Switzerland and hadalways received like high praise
for my master's project and what Ibrought and, you know, the kind of real
attempt at, , offering something goodto a community that was marginalized.
(18:01):
And one of the students who was ablack Canadian student was enraged.
She was absolutely enraged.
, she was enraged thatI was a guest speaker.
She was enraged that,
, who was I to think that Ihad anything to offer there?
(18:26):
Um, and it was a very Itwas a shocking moment.
It was a very shocking moment.
And my thesis advisor, who was the prof,just said nothing, like just stayed
quiet, shut down, , didn't engage.
, and it was a very interesting dialogueto have with the students to hear
(18:53):
what they were saying without gettingdefensive and critically analyzing.
What her particular perspectivewas, while also honoring that I was
collaborating with local staff and yeah,
(19:16):
So it was a, it was an interestingconversation to have an great reality
check for me that even in, even inthe most heuristic way, even in the
most, personally accountable waywhere I had gone in and said, I am
coming in with my awarenesses of myprivileges as, you know, a Canadian
(19:38):
citizen and immigrant from, Iran.
And , I am Western educatedand I'm wealthier than the
people that I'm working with.
And I'm coming in with allof that awareness and I'm
going to do such a good job.
And I'm going to like, You know, empowerthe local staff to be able to take this
(19:59):
these learnings and build from them andjust give them a foundation that I was
still even that even though I had doneeverything that I thought I could possibly
do to be, , self aware and personallyresponsible for my privileges and the
ways that those impacted, , that It didn'tmean that one, I wasn't doing harm or, and
(20:23):
two, , that there weren't other ways tolook at the impact of international work.
So it was a, that was one of the momentsbecause it really got me to think about,
, Who has the right to provide,education and insight.
(20:44):
An international work, , what is that?
Even what is that?
Like, if I haven'tlived in that community.
Yeah, I mean, maybe there was alittle bit of grace because art and
play are so, um, basically humaninstincts, you know, so it's, there,
(21:08):
there wasn't a lot of translation tohappen, but still, I was bringing my,
a certain perspective and ideology in.
That was that should have been morechecked than it was, I think, to some
degree, and I think that made me realizethat, , part of the problem was that,
(21:37):
all of my teachers, basically, , atmy master's program, , were white.
And, well, certainly themost well known ones were.
Like the most famed ones, andit still followed very much the
godfathers of psychology whiteEurocentric male figures.
(22:02):
And, and I hadn't really seen that becauseit made me realize how come nobody called
this out when I was doing my master's.
So no matter how much I could go backand be like, I was really collaborative.
I worked with the people on the ground.
I was as self aware as I possiblycould have been blah, blah, blah,
(22:23):
blah, like all of these things.
But those all felt like excuses.
Cause I could have, I could haveand should have done a better job.
Of reflecting, , on the multitudes ofways that, , me going in as a, even
as a person of color, still goingin as a Western educated Canadian.
(22:50):
Do you think that just wasn't that muchawareness of the harm that westerners,
as in like people from the West goinginto these countries to do good work.
I think, like even 20 years ago,there wasn't as much talk about the
harm that we are doing by steppinginto these countries, by offering.
(23:13):
Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And , looking back, I'm like, okay,so that was 2009 that I was there
and I'm like, okay, well 15 yearsago I've changed, I've learned a
lot in the last 15 years and , I waslike in my mid twenties at the time.
So it's not that I don't haveperspective to think like, well,
(23:36):
I was kind of going with what was.
I don't know, uh, kind ofencouraged at the time or guided
at the time by my mentors and
I was not fully comprehendingthe depth that I had.
(23:58):
I had internalized white supremacy thatI had internalized colonial ideology
that I had internalized this kind ofsystemic, I thought I had, you know, to,
to the degree to which like a 25 year oldcould at the time, but even then I would
(24:21):
say , I had, this is what I had studied.
I'd done my whole degree in this.
You would have, thought that between theanthropology, sociology, like women's
studies, and then the combination ofthen doing my master's in psychology and
expressive arts, like you would havethought that I would have, you know,
but, but I, but I had not analyzed.
(24:43):
the part that was internalized,that was blinding me to the ways
that I was not just participating,but perpetuating , those systems.
But I also think you broughtup really good point that
all your teachers were white.
So what was being taught to you wasalso taught from that lens, right?
(25:04):
Yeah.
I mean, when I went to UBC formy undergrad, I had teachers from
different parts of the world andit's so fascinating to me that I
only really remember the names ofthe ones who were people of color.
Like this does not.
This does not, uh, itdoesn't go over my head.
I'm really aware that there were onlyso few that I remember the faces.
(25:27):
I remember their voices.
I remember that that was, youknow, a prominent thing for me.
, and it's not that they, they weren'tthere, but I still don't think that there
was enough exposure for me, or perhaps Ijust wasn't introspective enough or wasn't
(25:47):
encouraged to be introspective enoughabout the ways that I had internalized it.
Because I think even until I'm jumpingahead a little bit here, but I would
say that it wasn't until I had alreadybeen, in private practice, maybe
for five or six years that I reallystarted to look at the ways that I had
(26:08):
internalized, , heteropatriarchy as well.
So it wasn't just.
The white supremacy colonial aspectsthat yes, like I had to unlearn, but
there was, there were these aspectsand , it wasn't until I was, so I was
working as a therapist and I was workingat a midwifery clinic as a therapist
(26:35):
for couples, , before they had babiesand then after they had babies and,, I
had studied Gottman and I had studies.
Yeah.
I was really interested in thatwork and I had done couples
therapy, um, studies, et cetera.
And I, and I had justhad my own first child.
(26:59):
So I was like a new mother.
I had this like lived experienceof moving through it as well.
And it wasn't until then that I realizedhow problematic the teachings of what
I had learned in couples therapy.
Were how much their perpetuatedpatriarchal stance, how
(27:22):
much they perpetuated.
Oppressive systems and thinking, , alot of blaming of women and, you know,
lots of space holding for men who arehaving a really hard time dealing with
the big change in their lives, so justfascinating, just really fascinating.
(27:49):
So I think even then,, I wasin, still in this process of
learning and unlearning things.
, and yeah, that was maybe 24,20, between 2012 and 2014,
2015, I was doing that work.
So lots of like deepening of learningsand having my own realizations and
(28:11):
noticing the places where therewere misses in how things were done.
And then of course there were like.
All sorts of cultural implications,too, because this was this happened
to be in the greater Vancouver region.
And so lots of cross cultural parents,lots of queer parents, lots of people
(28:35):
coming from all sorts of walks of life.
And so it just was , really greatlearning to realize that so many of
the ways that I had been educated andexposure that I had was problematic
when it came to, , therapeutic process.
And so I think that a lot of theunlearning that I did in those early
(29:01):
years as a therapist, so let's say betweenI started practicing as a therapist,
2008 or 2009, maybe, And then I was,became a registered counselor in 2011.
And so by the time this was happening,let's say 2014, 2015, only then was
(29:23):
I really learning, unlearning rather,unlearning that all of these things that
we've learned in books and practice,like all of these theories, all of these,
, Big thought leaders that, it all meantnothing if I was not creating a healthy
(29:46):
relational field with the client and thatthe healthy relational field had to be,
it had to be, a field that was free ofall of these oppressive systems of power.
So I had to get rid of.
(30:09):
Every aspect of my practice that wasbeing influenced by colonial capitalists,
white supremacy, heteropatriarchy.
It was my job as a therapist.
To become aware of those things and tonotice how those teachings had impacted
me, how I had accidentally taken them onhow I had been accidentally embodying them
(30:32):
because that was not going to be a healingspace for clients that I worked with.
And then I think over then the lastwhatever, nine, 10 years, really bringing
that into my practice and more real ways.
What would you say to people clientwho are now opening their eyes and
(30:56):
realizing that, Oh, there's stuff outthere that I've been taught that are
really not working for me, especiallyin the field of like racism, patriarchy.
Colonization.
(31:18):
Yeah, what a great question.
What would I say to them?
I think, , the first thing that comesto mind, first of all, I'm closing my
eyes, I'm tuning in because I'm tryingto bring myself to a moment like that.
And also to, I think, remind myself thatmaybe it's a little bit less about what
(31:40):
I say to them and more about how I amwith them in that moment on the call.
So if I am providing a differentperspective, or maybe I'm even bringing
a little bit of psychoeducation oreducational component into the session.
(32:05):
. Or maybe I'm just connectingtheir dots with them, , where
they're going, ah, whoa.
Okay.
I don't know about exactly whatI would say, but I know that how
I would be with them would bedeeply, , caring, compassionate,
nonjudgmental, and also curious.
(32:28):
Because I know what it's like from thatexperience I had in that Emily Carr
room where I was not supported by theperson who was my supervisor to diffuse
a situation and like had to like flounderfor myself, how troubling that was.
(32:49):
, and so there is.
This knowing I have that part of our work,, I believe as therapists is to lovingly
hold up a mirror for our clients so thatthey see themselves and their reality in
(33:10):
clearer ways, maybe from directions orangles that they hadn't seen them before.
And so if we are to do that, if ourrole is to hold up the mirror for our
clients, then we better be doing it with.
Immense kindness with no judgment withlots of holding and care and openness
(33:39):
to staying with them in curiosityand figuring out tell me, how are we
going to make sense of this, becauseI now see things I cannot unsee.
And there are some things I don'twant to see anymore but I can't.
How do I make sense of this new reality.
Maybe I don't know, you know, certainlyI don't come from the exact same cultural
(34:01):
upbringing as many of my clients.
Right.
And we all have very unique experiencesand perspectives, but it is my job as the
holder of the space to stay with them in aloving nonjudgmental frame and supporting
them in getting curious about, well,what sense do you make of it right now?
(34:23):
And how helpful is that?
And what else is there?
And are you being honest with yourself?
Are you being honest with me?
What is hard about beinghonest with yourself?
Oh, it's hard to sit with privilege.
Tell me about that.
Oh, you're resisting change.
Let's look at that resistance.
What's that resistance offering you?
(34:45):
What's that resistance costing you?
So it's more about going intothose conversations with them.
I don't know so much as like what mightbe my advice in a moment like that or
maybe it's just not that overarchingto have like one piece of advice, but
I guess overall it would be to lean in,lean into those moments where they're
(35:10):
having an aha moment and say Yeah, thismight be blowing your mind right now and
you might end the call and be like, Idon't want to know that I want to unknow
what we just figured out in therapy.
And you know what, Patricia, I don'tknow if you've had this experience,
but I've had it happen where, , I'mthinking of one client in particular
(35:31):
who stopped coming to sessions.
, and like a year later emailedme saying like, It was too true.
And I would rather just skim thesurface of my life than to make changes
in my family dynamic that had to dowith like abuses of power and yeah, so
(35:56):
much so much patriarchy and power overdynamic like, and I had brought it up.
And although it was true.
She was like, I don't wantto, I don't want to do it.
I'm just not interested.
I would rather not, I would rather not.
And so, , okay, then you'renot, that's not where you're
(36:18):
at right now in your journey.
And maybe she would come back to that.
Learning or that inquiry and another time.
I haven't had that in therapy per se,I've had it when I was a yoga teacher.
There was a guy who came to myclass all the time and about
three months and he looked at me.
(36:40):
He goes, I love and I hate your classes.
I'm like, why?
It's like, because you make me thinkabout things and you make me look at
things with what you say in class.
And I'm like, okay.
And then he, he looked atme, he goes, awareness suck.
(37:00):
And I always remember that moment becauseI say, well, you have a choice, you can
go back and being in denial or you canpay attention to what you're aware of now.
I think that's very relatable becausethe truth is hard to look at and
even harder to sit with it and goes,Okay, now, what do I do with it?
(37:24):
Deconstructing ourselves, our mentalsphere and our trajectory and in life
and noticing the ideologies that wehave swallowed whole is painful work.
It's like when the caterpillarDisintegrates completely inside the
(37:49):
cocoon, you know, like it completelydisintegrates like I used to think that
a caterpillar went inside the cocoon andjust like got like smaller and then grew
wings and was like so cute and came out.
I didn't know.
I until I was an adult, like trulyuntil I was an adult and I was like
(38:10):
reading some book to my kids I was like.
What completely falls apart back together.
And I think that doing thisdepth of healing work personally
and collectively requires us.
Requires us the strength that ittakes to disintegrate and fall
(38:36):
apart and choose intentionally howwe put ourselves back together,
how we move forward in the world.
I had a client, a long,long time ago, she was.
18 or 19.
And sometimes she would feelbad that she would come to
(38:58):
session and not say too much.
And I say to her, just showingup, it takes a lot of courage.
Because like what you said, it's true.
It's like it takes, it takes somuch work to be able to look at
it, to even want to talk about it.
And When you bring in Westernideology too, is that we think
(39:22):
that healing should be fast.
Mm-Hmm.
, you know, it's like you look atyour therapist and you go, fix me.
Just fix me.
Tell me what to do, . Just fix me.
Yeah.
And it doesn't work like that.
What's going on rightnow with the genocide.
(39:47):
Also in Iran right now.
Will you share with us howyou're feeling about it?
Recently I was telling a friend that,some years ago I did this ritual around,
(40:14):
, releasing guilt that I was feeling.
I was feeling.
So much guilt as an immigrantthat it was paralyzing me.
(40:34):
And.
I did this ritual around, , the idea wasto soak my guilt in love and gratitude
and basically to like wring out all the,all the guilt out or as much of it out
(41:00):
as possible and, and then like startnew, And I was telling my friend this
because I think it's a concept that comesup for me, or it has come up for me in
the last couple of years, particularlysince the Iran revolution, the most, the
women like freedom revolution, , thatstarted, , yeah, like there was an
(41:25):
upsurge for me and my experience ofguilt, , for not being there for what my
Family members, , and , my people for whatthey're, for what they're going through
and for the privileges I hold here.
, And then also as an extension of that isthe continuation of my sense of awareness
(41:53):
of how fortunate I am in my life.
here how safe I am in my life here.
How,, yeah, I mean, privilegedis the most basic way to put it.
And how not to allow that tobring so much guilt, overwhelm
(42:15):
me with so much guilt that I justbecome paralyzed to do anything.
Mm-Hmm.
. So I keep thinking about, you know,turning my guilt into gratitude and
turning my gratitude into action.
And part of that is.
Action as, , a citizen of the world.
Like , what am I going to speak up for?
(42:36):
What am I going to speak to?
How am I going to make myselfuncomfortable and what privileges am
I willing to like shake off in orderto make the world a better place, a
more free place, a more honest place.
And, um, so, so that work I thinkhas to be done like personally
(42:58):
and collectively for me.
And yeah, I don't know howelse am I feeling around it.
I am really grateful that I'm atthe place in my life where I am no
longer willing to uphold the comfortof the privileged in, at the expense
(43:26):
of the suffering of the oppressed.
Like.
I am not doing that, you know, ifpeople who follow me on Instagram
feel uncomfortable with truth.
That's okay.
I'm not here to make everybody feelnice about the world, the world is
(43:48):
not all sunshine and butterflies,and those who think that it is.
, are living in an illusion and they arenot living with the truth and honesty
of what a privileged stance they have.
And this also goes for the pseudospiritual community as well.
And the new age spiritual communitythat turns a blind eye to so much of
(44:12):
the atrocities that are going on, notjust in Palestine, not just in Congo
or Sudan so many places, right.
But those just to name, just toname a few, just to name a few,
I'm just not up for that.
Yeah, and you and I have talkedabout this a bit in the sense that my
(44:34):
Aries, fire shows up when I see peoplein the wellness spiritual community,
Especially those who are non BIPOCwith hundreds, thousands of followers
who are not saying, or doing anything.
And it makes me so angry.
(44:54):
. I'm trying not to swear so that I don'thave to list the episode as explicit.
Yeah.
I don't know.
How do you navigate that?
I just stopped following these people,but it makes me so angry and so
disappointed when there are things thatare happening now that they have such
(45:17):
a platform and they're not using it.
Hmm.
I mean, I think they have such aplatform and they're not using it
because Using it to bring awareness toinjustices would mean that they have
to reflect on how they play a part inupholding those systems of injustice.
(45:42):
And this also goes for the uberwealthy, even in the BIPOC community
right like, we're not immune to it.
No.
Right.
So there's also that, like when youthink about so many amazing celebrities
and I'm like, where are you right now?
(46:02):
That is true.
Reach like, you know, forgetlike the health and wellness.
I think that's one thing, but there'slike, And this, that could be a whole
other topic of conversation, but, I dotake your point that in the,, health and
wellness community, there is definitely
(46:24):
, a reluctance or an outright refusalor resistance to the work that
is necessary in the same way.
In the same way that like, I had tolook at in my early to mid twenties,
the ways that I was benefiting from thesystems of power that I had internalized
(46:49):
and I had to divest from them.
I think that these wellness people orpseudo spiritual people or whatever,
who have not looked at those things.
They have not honestly taken alook at how they are privileged.
And how they are continually,um, benefiting from the way
(47:12):
that the world is working, evenif it's unintentional, right?
Even if it's like, well, I'm safeover here, like, I'm, there are
so many atrocities in the world.
How could I just pick one to talk about?
It would be unfair, you know?
It's like, oh God, the amountof lack of self awareness that.
(47:35):
That it takes for that.
And that's really unfortunate.
But I think that at these times, more thanfocusing on unfollowing those people, I'm
focusing on, , who am I actually followingand following more, , leaders from the
(47:56):
so called global South, um, following alot more, , BIPOC educators and leaders
and wellness people and, , politicalactivists from all over the world.
I think that that's part ofwhat we're able to do and
then amplifying those voices
(48:22):
and I think parts of the reasonsthat the world is in such a bad state
is that there are still overall.
This mentality that Westernideology is the best ideology
and will ultimately save us.
So there's this kind of like waitingaround still, it's, it's a different
(48:46):
amplification of the white savior complex,if we looked to the wisdom from different
areas of the world, we, if we look toindigenous wisdom, if we looked to wisdom
coming from, you know, the global South.
There's a lot of wisdom thereand it is a completely, uh,
(49:12):
possible towards healing perspective that,, goes up against eons of white supremacy.
And , yeah, all we cando is our part in it.
And, and I don't mean that to say like allwe can do, like it's a little bit, it's
like, all we can do is what we must do.
(49:33):
Everything we get to the, to the maximumof what we can do is what we must do.
And so even if that's a small amount,even if that's reposting thought
leaders that, , you know, give differentperspectives, if it's decolonizing our
practice, if it's being honest with ourclients, if it's being with them and
(49:53):
loving nonjudgmental spaces so that theycan discover for themselves the ways that
they've internalized these things like.
If that's what we can do, andthat's all we can do, we better
do all the things we can do.
Right.
Right.
So you are one of the mostloving and caring humans.
(50:15):
I know.
How do you stay so loving and kind witheverything that is going on in the world?
I don't know.
Were you born with it?, You were sharingjust now that when you were younger,
they said that you would work for the UN.
(50:36):
Yeah, I mean, maybe,
maybe.
Yeah, maybe there's a part of it.
That's just how I am, how I operate.
, I also work very intentionally
(50:56):
to not get bitter and
defeated.
Although, of course, I do feelthose things some of the time.
But I have this commitment, this kindof inner commitment to continuing to
see beauty in the world and beautyin people and look towards kindness
(51:25):
and compassion as, I don't know, asa light source to keep going back to.
, and then I think on avery practical level.
I keep tapping into those thingsthrough my spiritual practice,
through being in nature, throughpraying, through reflecting, through
(51:48):
honest, good community dialoguewith, um with others who are in need.
Because sometimes it's like acandle that gets blown out like I
need to be resourced again.
And sometimes that resourcing thatlight that like flame comes back
from being out in the mountains andsometimes it's, you know, calling a
(52:12):
trusted person saying, God, I feelunable to get up and at it today, and
then get the support and keep going.
Well, you answered my next questionas to how do you look after yourself?
(52:33):
Yeah.
You've done a few podcasts.
I'm curious, is there questionsyou've always wanted to be
asked, but Never have been,
you know, I'm pretty verbose,like someone and I can talk
for like 20 minutes straight.
So I don't know.
(52:55):
, I kind of trust whatever questions come.
Some of the things I've saidin this podcast, I've never
spoken publicly about like ever.
So it's just fascinating.
It's like, okay, whatever that storyreally wanted to come out, I guess.
Um, or it has lessons for me, youknow, I think when we end this
(53:16):
recording and I, Go for a walk.
I'm definitely going to be thinkingback to that, presentation I
had back in 2013 and think abouthow would I do that differently.
How could I have been even more.
Um, I was very personally accountable,but I could have been more gentle and
(53:42):
less like, like, I was so shocked andlike, oh my God, like, you know, I
took responsibility for the hurt thatperson experienced in the presentation.
But I also was like, Ithink I could have been.
(54:04):
more loving.
So yeah, I'm going to walk awayand really think about that.
Every experience that I have is areally great opportunity to self
reflect so that I continue to showup as even better version of myself
moving forward all of the time.
(54:26):
And I think maybe the last thing I willsay is that I don't know that this is
a question that no one's ever askedme, but I think that's something that
I have been generally thinking about inthe context of being a therapist who's
also a human living imperfectly in animperfect world is,, the invitation
(54:50):
for other therapists to divorcethemselves from this idea that they
need to be this all knowing, super wise,always like with the perfect answers.
And of course do no harm, but also showup human, , so sick of Even on Instagram
(55:14):
coming across therapist and I'm like,why you just like swallowed a textbook
and you're just going to blab shit at me.
Oh, shoot.
Did I just ruin your content?
It's alright.
Can you edit it out?
I can, but maybe I'll just leaveit in there for some spiciness.
(55:37):
I think there wassomething about it, right?
Can we also Show up human withone another and be honest about
the things that we are learning.
, and not feel like we have to haveit all perfect before we, , share
(55:58):
what it is that we're learning.
, You know, I, I don't, Idon't find that helpful.
I read somewhere, someone had postedsomething that was like, your business
can't grow if you are too relatable.
(56:19):
You have to, people shouldn't.
Look at you and feel likethey see themselves in you.
They should look at you and wantto emulate you or want to be you.
I was like, I think that is partof the problematic systemic way of
thinking that is I am better than you.
So but the reality is no, I'mnot like, that's very egoic.
(56:41):
That's very, very egoic.
I would rather like be like.
I'm learning some things, you'relearning some things, maybe I'm, I have
different learnings than you do, maybeI have more skills in one area than
you do, but I'm not better than you.
I'm not a better human.
I'm not a, I am more healed than you are.
(57:02):
That's why I'm a therapistand you're just a client.
You know, that is not how this works.
I had a woman came into my inbox andgoes, you should never share stories about
other people's posts because you're thenyou're not promoting your own business.
(57:23):
I'm like, but how isthat building community?
How is that supporting other peoplethat their business, like I just, I, I.
I mean, that just points to that personhas a very individualistic perspective
(57:46):
versus a collective perspective, right?
You're looking at this world and thiswork in a communal, collective, Frame
and this person was looking at it fromlike, how are you as an individual
going to stand out and make it andgain followers and money and, you
know, this very individualistic system.
(58:09):
And, you're clear thatthat's not what you're about.
Last question for you.
Since you and I have the cutest dogs ever.
And our dogs are , a month apart in age,. What is the most surprising thing for you?
(58:32):
Or maybe a few like beingmama to a dog or a puppy?
The most surprising things?
You know, he's my first dogthat I've ever had, who's mine,
and he's very much my baby.
(58:55):
Um, I think the most surprisingthings are just how deeply Ooh.
Yes.
I'm talking about you.
Did you hear him bark?
? . I, I got a little thing.
I started talking.
I was like, yeah.
Uh, just how much I really,really, really, really love him.
(59:15):
Mm-Hmm.
And how much I really, really,really, really feel loved by him.
Hmm.
I mean, I knew that I would love my pet.
I didn't understand the depth.
I also really didn't understandthe depth that I would feel loved
by his presence or his care.
(59:36):
, I have never been a bigger fan ofpeople having pets than I am now.
Like the, the, the biggest,biggest blessing truly.
So healing.
I agree.
(59:59):
Is there any last advice orwisdom you would like to share
,When you feel like
you just, it has all fallen apart.
When you get to the point where you'relike, I just can't, it's, it's too much.
(01:00:26):
Remember that you aren't alone.
And if it's hard for you in thosemoments to remember that you're not
alone, when you're having a goodmoment, make a list of the people who.
Can remind you that you're notalone, so that when you're in
(01:00:47):
it when you're really in it andfeeling like you just can't anymore.
And you're too lonely
that you don't also have to thinkthe unhelpful thought of no one
understands me no one is there for meI'm all by myself it's like no here.
Here is a list of whatmaybe it's just one person.
(01:01:10):
Maybe it's five.
Maybe it's a Maybe it's a loved onein your life, like personal life, but
maybe it's your therapist, you know,
when we're at the bottom,bottom, bottom, it's essential
(01:01:33):
to know that we're not alone.
It's loneliness that is themost painful part I think.
As with a bit of company, eventhe darkest times can be endured.
(01:01:54):
It's like, I would never want to be out inthe woods, completely by myself at night.
But if I had my dog.
Or a friend with me in those darkesttimes, I would be much more able
and willing to wait for the light.
(01:02:15):
And I think it's like that when we'regoing through the deep heart stuff.
Thank you for being on the show today.
Thank you, Patricia.
Hmm, remember that you are not alone.
That is such a great advice.
I know it is hard when youare going through a hot time.
(01:02:39):
And you feel like no one cares,especially if you have no family
around or if you're a new immigrantand haven't made many friends.
Reach out to your coworkers oryour neighbors, if you need to.
You are not alone.
I walk our puppy a few times daily.
And in the afternoon we visit an elderlylady that lives across the street from us.
(01:03:05):
For a while.
I was worried that wewere imposing on her.
But yesterday, she toldus that our daily visits.
were one of the highlights of her day.
So you never know, do you?
Say hi to the next personyou see that might be exactly
what they need for that day.
Have a great week.
(01:03:27):
This is your Chinese auntie, Yi Yi.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
(01:03:48):
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapeterson.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
ca.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
that the healthy relational fieldhad to be, it had to be, a field
that was free of all of theseoppressive systems of power.
So I had to get rid of.
(00:25):
Every aspect of my practice that wasbeing influenced by colonial capitalists,
white supremacy, heteropatriarchy.
It was my job as a therapist.
To become aware of those things and tonotice how those teachings had impacted
me, how I had accidentally taken them onhow I had been accidentally embodying them
(00:48):
because that was not going to be a healingspace for clients that I worked with.
if our role is to hold up themirror for our clients, then
we better be doing it with.
Immense kindness with no judgment withlots of holding and care and openness
(01:12):
to staying with them in curiosityand figuring out tell me, how are we
going to make sense of this, becauseI now see things I cannot unsee.
So I keep thinking about, you know,turning my guilt into gratitude and
(01:32):
turning my gratitude into action.
And part of that is.
Action as, , a citizen of the world.
Like , what am I going to speak up for?
What am I going to speak to?
How am I going to make myselfuncomfortable and what privileges
am I willing to shake off in orderto make the world a better place, a
(01:55):
more free place, a more honest place.
Welcome to conversations withyour Chinese auntie podcast, with
Patricia Petersen, as she has.
compelling conversationswith fascinating people.
When I think about my guest today, I amreminded of the quote by Maya Angelou.
(02:19):
I did then what I knew how to do.
Now that I know better, I do better.
I think you will agree too afteryou listen to this episode.
I am thrilled to welcome oneof my favorite people Taraneh.
Erfan.
To the show today.
In this episode, Taranehtalks about growing up in
(02:40):
Iran during the Iran, Iraq war.
Recognizing the privilege we haveand how to decolonize our practice.
And of course, we talk about our puppies.
We discuss whether it isethical to volunteer abroad.
We talk about patriarchy.
Lessons learned, white supremacy,colonization and much more.
(03:03):
Taraneh is a registeredclinical counselor, certified
expressive arts therapist,publish author, passionate poet.
Yoga and meditation teacher.
Her book conscious grieving, thepath of awakening through loss helped
me immensely to process my grief.
After my mother died.
(03:28):
. Hello, Taraneh.
Hello, Patricia.
Welcome.
Thanks.
How are you?
I'm really good today.
I am.
I have had some time outdoors.
I have seen some clients.
I have done some organizing ofthe week and spend time with my
(03:51):
children and my dog in this moment.
I'm really good.
Excited for this conversation.
Please introduce yourself.
, my name is Taraneh Erfan,and my pronouns are she, her.
(04:12):
I am a first generation, , Iranianimmigrant settler, , living on the
unceded lands of the Squamish people.
I am mum to two.
Beautiful beings, twobeautiful humans, , and a dog.
(04:33):
And I work full time as a therapist anda facilitator and part time as a writer.
Working, continuallyworking on new projects.
Ooh, are you working on a second book?
(04:55):
I am working on like acouple of second books.
I don't seem to be able to figureout what is needing my attention.
So, , I'm working on, , a kind ofnovel idea on the one hand, and then
I'm working on a more therapeutic,, guidebook kind of idea on the other
hand, and we'll just see which onedecides to be written fully first.
(05:22):
I'd love for you to share yourjourney on how you became a therapist.
Oh, you know, before, , thisrecording and while I was thinking
about, you know, what is it thatmight be helpful to share around?
My childhood, but also my, I don'tknow, the orientation of my soul
(05:50):
towards like the kind of work that I'minterested in doing, geared towards
doing, and then have intentionallybuilt skills to be able to do.
So I was thinking about this questionof, you know, what, what has kind of
brought me here . So first of all, Iwas born in Iran during the Iran Iraq war.
(06:15):
And, , for contextualpurposes in this very moment.
I also want to land and acknowledgethe fact that the, , Iran Iraq war was
Orchestrated by the United States andIsrael as, , , they provided ammunition
to Iraq to come to, to war with Iranand it was like a political game.
(06:42):
I think in this time in our humanhistory, it might be helpful to like,
just like land, like little bits oflike, there are connections here around.
If we scope out wider as towhat might be going on in a,
in the socio political sphere.
So anyways.
That's as an aside, but I grew upduring the time of the war and some
(07:03):
of my earliest memories are of fighterjets flying overhead and my parents,
, taking care to use duct tape totape X's on all of the windows in the
house so that if we got bombed the,or there was a bomb nearby that the,
(07:27):
uh, windows wouldn't shatter inwards.
, I distinctly have memory of my oldersister who's three years older than me.
She was in grade one whenthe war was at its height.
So I was three and she was six ormaybe I was four and she was seven.
(07:49):
And I remember that she had to, , studygrade one off of the television
because that's how kids went to school.
Cause we, we couldn't go to school.
It was.
It's too dangerous.
So I remember like sitting withher and drawing next to her while,
you know, from like nine to 10am.
It was grade one from 10 to 11am.
(08:10):
It was great to like, it was likethat, you know, , and so I have
these memories of growing up.
Not just to like blanket statementgrowing up with war, but growing up
in complex multidimensional realitiesof socio political combinations of
(08:33):
things and also living in a countrythat was enforcing gender apartheid.
So very strong, heteropatriarchal.
imposed culture there as well.
And then underlaying all of that,that this ancient Persian culture
that was much more heart centered,that was much more relational, that
(08:58):
was really soft in, many ways.
, and particularly, I say that not tosay that it was like the culture was.
To diminish the culture in any way, butto say that there was this, it wasn't
all edges and no heart like the actuallyPersian culture has a great deal of heart.
(09:20):
And with that comes an immense.
Immensely rich culture as far as the artsand music and certainly poetry and part
of my upbringing was, , really deeplyinfluenced by that because my family
and my heritage happened to come from.
(09:42):
Sufism, , and, you know, for listenerswho don't know what Sufism is, I mean,
of course, a little Google will help,but, , just as a very broad statement,
it's a spiritual sect or faith thatSufism , originates in that region.
(10:03):
And if you have ever read Rumi or Hafez,, you have had some exposure to Sufism.
, and so I kind of, yeah, my earliestmemories are of these cacophonies of
experiences of hardship and difficulty.
And,, the depth of the culture and how wemade it through all of that, , and very
(10:29):
much a relational aspect of taking care ofeach other, taking care of your neighbors,
taking care of your extended family.
, and that really, really stayed with me.
. Until we immigrated when I was 12and moved to what's colloquially
(10:49):
known as West Vancouver.
, To begin with, and then I spent the restof my kind of youth , in that region and
in Vancouver, going to university, etc.
, And I forget the original question, butoh yes, how did I become a therapist?
(11:14):
,When I was a child.
My family would say, and there's like,there's like a light and shadow to this.
I'm sure everyone who has had theirparents say, Oh, I can see you
being a so and so when you grow up.
Like there's, there'slight and shadow to that.
But the story about me was alwaysthat I had such a big heart and I was
(11:35):
probably going to work for the UN.
And I think in many ways,I, that resonated with me.
Like it was very much of interest to me.
, at the university level.
I did end up studying sociology andcultural anthropology with a minor
in critical studies and sexuality,which was part of the women's studies
(12:00):
department so I was definitely alreadylike kind of in that trajectory.
, And then I did spend lots of timevolunteering and working for different
kinds of nonprofit organizations andother types of organizations in various
places around the world, hoping tofulfill this good person checklist.
(12:27):
And what I realized wasthat there was a lot of.
Ego centric, theologybehind that kind of work.
There was a lot of white supremacy, , thatwas embedded in working in those kinds of
(12:50):
organizations as well as a lot of, yeah,colonial, basically colonial mindset.
And , particularly, I think when I worked, in Sri Lanka and in Tanzania, it became
(13:11):
radically obvious that, , actually,this might be doing more harm than good
and , who am I being if this is whatI'm doing and, why am I going along with
the kind of quote unquote white saviorcomplex, even as a person of color.
What does that mean for me.
(13:32):
What does that mean for theworld that I interact with.
How am I showing up honestly, andreally actually being of service.
And so once I got my designation as aclinical counsellor, I, it also happened
to coincide with when I was feeling readyto have kids and wanted to be near family
(13:56):
and decided to , stay put at least inthe region where my family was living
And I think since then I've been.
Working on decolonizing my practiceand my approach to my work as a global
(14:17):
citizen and my interests as someone whowants to make a positive impact in the
world and is geared in that direction,but also in a really honest way that
like a lot of these larger organizations.
Um,
(14:39):
they are not, it's like, it'slike once you, once you enter
the world, you realize that like,without the deconstructive work of.
being aware of what are the systems ofpower at play and how those are implicated
and how they are regenerated and howthey are actually trickling down from
(15:02):
the highest levels all the way down tothe people they're supposedly helping.
If you're not doing thatdeconstructive work, then you just
end up getting caught in the cog andjust being like, well, it's, it's
a sacrifice for the bigger good.
And we just do our bestand hope something happens.
And like, that just wasn't.
(15:22):
Right for me.
So, , I stopped doing internationalwork and, , in 2011, I stopped doing
international work and since thenI have been staying put and doing
the best work I can from where I am.
(15:48):
Was there a distinctmoment that you realized?
Oh, a lot of these systems are set inpatriarchal Western way of thinking,
and it's not going to work for me.
Because for my own journey,a few things happen.
And then I was like, Oh, right,I got to look at this a different
way, because I spent so much timetrying to fit in, trying to let go
(16:12):
of my Chinese culture for a while.
That is a really good question.
Well, the first thing that comes tomind is that I think it was in 2013,
I was a guest lecturer at Emily Carr,, they had a course in, , basically
(16:39):
kind of like art for social change.
And because I'm a certifiedexpressive arts therapist.
And it was actually my thesis advisorwas the professor of that course and
she had asked me to come and be aguest lecturer and to talk about my
thesis project, which was a heuristicresearch project and what it was like to
(17:05):
engage in therapeutic writing and art.
, with Children dying of cancer in apediatric cancer care in Tanzania, and
the work was mostly about how to trainthe local staff in carrying on a kind
of therapeutic arts and play program.
Once I left.
, and I presented it I had beeneducated in a international.
(17:36):
, University in Switzerland and hadalways received like high praise
for my master's project and what Ibrought and, you know, the kind of real
attempt at, , offering something goodto a community that was marginalized.
(18:01):
And one of the students who was ablack Canadian student was enraged.
She was absolutely enraged.
, she was enraged thatI was a guest speaker.
She was enraged that,
, who was I to think that Ihad anything to offer there?
(18:26):
Um, and it was a very Itwas a shocking moment.
It was a very shocking moment.
And my thesis advisor, who was the prof,just said nothing, like just stayed
quiet, shut down, , didn't engage.
, and it was a very interesting dialogueto have with the students to hear
(18:53):
what they were saying without gettingdefensive and critically analyzing.
What her particular perspectivewas, while also honoring that I was
collaborating with local staff and yeah,
(19:16):
So it was a, it was an interestingconversation to have an great reality
check for me that even in, even inthe most heuristic way, even in the
most, personally accountable waywhere I had gone in and said, I am
coming in with my awarenesses of myprivileges as, you know, a Canadian
(19:38):
citizen and immigrant from, Iran.
And , I am Western educatedand I'm wealthier than the
people that I'm working with.
And I'm coming in with allof that awareness and I'm
going to do such a good job.
And I'm going to like, You know, empowerthe local staff to be able to take this
(19:59):
these learnings and build from them andjust give them a foundation that I was
still even that even though I had doneeverything that I thought I could possibly
do to be, , self aware and personallyresponsible for my privileges and the
ways that those impacted, , that It didn'tmean that one, I wasn't doing harm or, and
(20:23):
two, , that there weren't other ways tolook at the impact of international work.
So it was a, that was one of the momentsbecause it really got me to think about,
, Who has the right to provide,education and insight.
(20:44):
An international work, , what is that?
Even what is that?
Like, if I haven'tlived in that community.
Yeah, I mean, maybe there was alittle bit of grace because art and
play are so, um, basically humaninstincts, you know, so it's, there,
(21:08):
there wasn't a lot of translation tohappen, but still, I was bringing my,
a certain perspective and ideology in.
That was that should have been morechecked than it was, I think, to some
degree, and I think that made me realizethat, , part of the problem was that,
(21:37):
all of my teachers, basically, , atmy master's program, , were white.
And, well, certainly themost well known ones were.
Like the most famed ones, andit still followed very much the
godfathers of psychology whiteEurocentric male figures.
(22:02):
And, and I hadn't really seen that becauseit made me realize how come nobody called
this out when I was doing my master's.
So no matter how much I could go backand be like, I was really collaborative.
I worked with the people on the ground.
I was as self aware as I possiblycould have been blah, blah, blah,
(22:23):
blah, like all of these things.
But those all felt like excuses.
Cause I could have, I could haveand should have done a better job.
Of reflecting, , on the multitudes ofways that, , me going in as a, even
as a person of color, still goingin as a Western educated Canadian.
(22:50):
Do you think that just wasn't that muchawareness of the harm that westerners,
as in like people from the West goinginto these countries to do good work.
I think, like even 20 years ago,there wasn't as much talk about the
harm that we are doing by steppinginto these countries, by offering.
(23:13):
Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And , looking back, I'm like, okay,so that was 2009 that I was there
and I'm like, okay, well 15 yearsago I've changed, I've learned a
lot in the last 15 years and , I waslike in my mid twenties at the time.
So it's not that I don't haveperspective to think like, well,
(23:36):
I was kind of going with what was.
I don't know, uh, kind ofencouraged at the time or guided
at the time by my mentors and
I was not fully comprehendingthe depth that I had.
(23:58):
I had internalized white supremacy thatI had internalized colonial ideology
that I had internalized this kind ofsystemic, I thought I had, you know, to,
to the degree to which like a 25 year oldcould at the time, but even then I would
(24:21):
say , I had, this is what I had studied.
I'd done my whole degree in this.
You would have, thought that between theanthropology, sociology, like women's
studies, and then the combination ofthen doing my master's in psychology and
expressive arts, like you would havethought that I would have, you know,
but, but I, but I had not analyzed.
(24:43):
the part that was internalized,that was blinding me to the ways
that I was not just participating,but perpetuating , those systems.
But I also think you broughtup really good point that
all your teachers were white.
So what was being taught to you wasalso taught from that lens, right?
(25:04):
Yeah.
I mean, when I went to UBC formy undergrad, I had teachers from
different parts of the world andit's so fascinating to me that I
only really remember the names ofthe ones who were people of color.
Like this does not.
This does not, uh, itdoesn't go over my head.
I'm really aware that there were onlyso few that I remember the faces.
(25:27):
I remember their voices.
I remember that that was, youknow, a prominent thing for me.
, and it's not that they, they weren'tthere, but I still don't think that there
was enough exposure for me, or perhaps Ijust wasn't introspective enough or wasn't
(25:47):
encouraged to be introspective enoughabout the ways that I had internalized it.
Because I think even until I'm jumpingahead a little bit here, but I would
say that it wasn't until I had alreadybeen, in private practice, maybe
for five or six years that I reallystarted to look at the ways that I had
(26:08):
internalized, , heteropatriarchy as well.
So it wasn't just.
The white supremacy colonial aspectsthat yes, like I had to unlearn, but
there was, there were these aspectsand , it wasn't until I was, so I was
working as a therapist and I was workingat a midwifery clinic as a therapist
(26:35):
for couples, , before they had babiesand then after they had babies and,, I
had studied Gottman and I had studies.
Yeah.
I was really interested in thatwork and I had done couples
therapy, um, studies, et cetera.
And I, and I had justhad my own first child.
(26:59):
So I was like a new mother.
I had this like lived experienceof moving through it as well.
And it wasn't until then that I realizedhow problematic the teachings of what
I had learned in couples therapy.
Were how much their perpetuatedpatriarchal stance, how
(27:22):
much they perpetuated.
Oppressive systems and thinking, , alot of blaming of women and, you know,
lots of space holding for men who arehaving a really hard time dealing with
the big change in their lives, so justfascinating, just really fascinating.
(27:49):
So I think even then,, I wasin, still in this process of
learning and unlearning things.
, and yeah, that was maybe 24,20, between 2012 and 2014,
2015, I was doing that work.
So lots of like deepening of learningsand having my own realizations and
(28:11):
noticing the places where therewere misses in how things were done.
And then of course there were like.
All sorts of cultural implications,too, because this was this happened
to be in the greater Vancouver region.
And so lots of cross cultural parents,lots of queer parents, lots of people
(28:35):
coming from all sorts of walks of life.
And so it just was , really greatlearning to realize that so many of
the ways that I had been educated andexposure that I had was problematic
when it came to, , therapeutic process.
And so I think that a lot of theunlearning that I did in those early
(29:01):
years as a therapist, so let's say betweenI started practicing as a therapist,
2008 or 2009, maybe, And then I was,became a registered counselor in 2011.
And so by the time this was happening,let's say 2014, 2015, only then was
(29:23):
I really learning, unlearning rather,unlearning that all of these things that
we've learned in books and practice,like all of these theories, all of these,
, Big thought leaders that, it all meantnothing if I was not creating a healthy
(29:46):
relational field with the client and thatthe healthy relational field had to be,
it had to be, a field that was free ofall of these oppressive systems of power.
So I had to get rid of.
(30:09):
Every aspect of my practice that wasbeing influenced by colonial capitalists,
white supremacy, heteropatriarchy.
It was my job as a therapist.
To become aware of those things and tonotice how those teachings had impacted
me, how I had accidentally taken them onhow I had been accidentally embodying them
(30:32):
because that was not going to be a healingspace for clients that I worked with.
And then I think over then the lastwhatever, nine, 10 years, really bringing
that into my practice and more real ways.
What would you say to people clientwho are now opening their eyes and
(30:56):
realizing that, Oh, there's stuff outthere that I've been taught that are
really not working for me, especiallyin the field of like racism, patriarchy.
Colonization.
(31:18):
Yeah, what a great question.
What would I say to them?
I think, , the first thing that comesto mind, first of all, I'm closing my
eyes, I'm tuning in because I'm tryingto bring myself to a moment like that.
And also to, I think, remind myself thatmaybe it's a little bit less about what
(31:40):
I say to them and more about how I amwith them in that moment on the call.
So if I am providing a differentperspective, or maybe I'm even bringing
a little bit of psychoeducation oreducational component into the session.
(32:05):
. Or maybe I'm just connectingtheir dots with them, , where
they're going, ah, whoa.
Okay.
I don't know about exactly whatI would say, but I know that how
I would be with them would bedeeply, , caring, compassionate,
nonjudgmental, and also curious.
(32:28):
Because I know what it's like from thatexperience I had in that Emily Carr
room where I was not supported by theperson who was my supervisor to diffuse
a situation and like had to like flounderfor myself, how troubling that was.
(32:49):
, and so there is.
This knowing I have that part of our work,, I believe as therapists is to lovingly
hold up a mirror for our clients so thatthey see themselves and their reality in
(33:10):
clearer ways, maybe from directions orangles that they hadn't seen them before.
And so if we are to do that, if ourrole is to hold up the mirror for our
clients, then we better be doing it with.
Immense kindness with no judgment withlots of holding and care and openness
(33:39):
to staying with them in curiosityand figuring out tell me, how are we
going to make sense of this, becauseI now see things I cannot unsee.
And there are some things I don'twant to see anymore but I can't.
How do I make sense of this new reality.
Maybe I don't know, you know, certainlyI don't come from the exact same cultural
(34:01):
upbringing as many of my clients.
Right.
And we all have very unique experiencesand perspectives, but it is my job as the
holder of the space to stay with them in aloving nonjudgmental frame and supporting
them in getting curious about, well,what sense do you make of it right now?
(34:23):
And how helpful is that?
And what else is there?
And are you being honest with yourself?
Are you being honest with me?
What is hard about beinghonest with yourself?
Oh, it's hard to sit with privilege.
Tell me about that.
Oh, you're resisting change.
Let's look at that resistance.
What's that resistance offering you?
(34:45):
What's that resistance costing you?
So it's more about going intothose conversations with them.
I don't know so much as like what mightbe my advice in a moment like that or
maybe it's just not that overarchingto have like one piece of advice, but
I guess overall it would be to lean in,lean into those moments where they're
(35:10):
having an aha moment and say Yeah, thismight be blowing your mind right now and
you might end the call and be like, Idon't want to know that I want to unknow
what we just figured out in therapy.
And you know what, Patricia, I don'tknow if you've had this experience,
but I've had it happen where, , I'mthinking of one client in particular
(35:31):
who stopped coming to sessions.
, and like a year later emailedme saying like, It was too true.
And I would rather just skim thesurface of my life than to make changes
in my family dynamic that had to dowith like abuses of power and yeah, so
(35:56):
much so much patriarchy and power overdynamic like, and I had brought it up.
And although it was true.
She was like, I don't wantto, I don't want to do it.
I'm just not interested.
I would rather not, I would rather not.
And so, , okay, then you'renot, that's not where you're
(36:18):
at right now in your journey.
And maybe she would come back to that.
Learning or that inquiry and another time.
I haven't had that in therapy per se,I've had it when I was a yoga teacher.
There was a guy who came to myclass all the time and about
three months and he looked at me.
(36:40):
He goes, I love and I hate your classes.
I'm like, why?
It's like, because you make me thinkabout things and you make me look at
things with what you say in class.
And I'm like, okay.
And then he, he looked atme, he goes, awareness suck.
(37:00):
And I always remember that moment becauseI say, well, you have a choice, you can
go back and being in denial or you canpay attention to what you're aware of now.
I think that's very relatable becausethe truth is hard to look at and
even harder to sit with it and goes,Okay, now, what do I do with it?
(37:24):
Deconstructing ourselves, our mentalsphere and our trajectory and in life
and noticing the ideologies that wehave swallowed whole is painful work.
It's like when the caterpillarDisintegrates completely inside the
(37:49):
cocoon, you know, like it completelydisintegrates like I used to think that
a caterpillar went inside the cocoon andjust like got like smaller and then grew
wings and was like so cute and came out.
I didn't know.
I until I was an adult, like trulyuntil I was an adult and I was like
(38:10):
reading some book to my kids I was like.
What completely falls apart back together.
And I think that doing thisdepth of healing work personally
and collectively requires us.
Requires us the strength that ittakes to disintegrate and fall
(38:36):
apart and choose intentionally howwe put ourselves back together,
how we move forward in the world.
I had a client, a long,long time ago, she was.
18 or 19.
And sometimes she would feelbad that she would come to
(38:58):
session and not say too much.
And I say to her, just showingup, it takes a lot of courage.
Because like what you said, it's true.
It's like it takes, it takes somuch work to be able to look at
it, to even want to talk about it.
And When you bring in Westernideology too, is that we think
(39:22):
that healing should be fast.
Mm-Hmm.
, you know, it's like you look atyour therapist and you go, fix me.
Just fix me.
Tell me what to do, . Just fix me.
Yeah.
And it doesn't work like that.
What's going on rightnow with the genocide.
(39:47):
Also in Iran right now.
Will you share with us howyou're feeling about it?
Recently I was telling a friend that,some years ago I did this ritual around,
(40:14):
, releasing guilt that I was feeling.
I was feeling.
So much guilt as an immigrantthat it was paralyzing me.
(40:34):
And.
I did this ritual around, , the idea wasto soak my guilt in love and gratitude
and basically to like wring out all the,all the guilt out or as much of it out
(41:00):
as possible and, and then like startnew, And I was telling my friend this
because I think it's a concept that comesup for me, or it has come up for me in
the last couple of years, particularlysince the Iran revolution, the most, the
women like freedom revolution, , thatstarted, , yeah, like there was an
(41:25):
upsurge for me and my experience ofguilt, , for not being there for what my
Family members, , and , my people for whatthey're, for what they're going through
and for the privileges I hold here.
, And then also as an extension of that isthe continuation of my sense of awareness
(41:53):
of how fortunate I am in my life.
here how safe I am in my life here.
How,, yeah, I mean, privilegedis the most basic way to put it.
And how not to allow that tobring so much guilt, overwhelm
(42:15):
me with so much guilt that I justbecome paralyzed to do anything.
Mm-Hmm.
. So I keep thinking about, you know,turning my guilt into gratitude and
turning my gratitude into action.
And part of that is.
Action as, , a citizen of the world.
Like , what am I going to speak up for?
(42:36):
What am I going to speak to?
How am I going to make myselfuncomfortable and what privileges am
I willing to like shake off in orderto make the world a better place, a
more free place, a more honest place.
And, um, so, so that work I thinkhas to be done like personally
(42:58):
and collectively for me.
And yeah, I don't know howelse am I feeling around it.
I am really grateful that I'm atthe place in my life where I am no
longer willing to uphold the comfortof the privileged in, at the expense
(43:26):
of the suffering of the oppressed.
Like.
I am not doing that, you know, ifpeople who follow me on Instagram
feel uncomfortable with truth.
That's okay.
I'm not here to make everybody feelnice about the world, the world is
(43:48):
not all sunshine and butterflies,and those who think that it is.
, are living in an illusion and they arenot living with the truth and honesty
of what a privileged stance they have.
And this also goes for the pseudospiritual community as well.
And the new age spiritual communitythat turns a blind eye to so much of
(44:12):
the atrocities that are going on, notjust in Palestine, not just in Congo
or Sudan so many places, right.
But those just to name, just toname a few, just to name a few,
I'm just not up for that.
Yeah, and you and I have talkedabout this a bit in the sense that my
(44:34):
Aries, fire shows up when I see peoplein the wellness spiritual community,
Especially those who are non BIPOCwith hundreds, thousands of followers
who are not saying, or doing anything.
And it makes me so angry.
(44:54):
. I'm trying not to swear so that I don'thave to list the episode as explicit.
Yeah.
I don't know.
How do you navigate that?
I just stopped following these people,but it makes me so angry and so
disappointed when there are things thatare happening now that they have such
(45:17):
a platform and they're not using it.
Hmm.
I mean, I think they have such aplatform and they're not using it
because Using it to bring awareness toinjustices would mean that they have
to reflect on how they play a part inupholding those systems of injustice.
(45:42):
And this also goes for the uberwealthy, even in the BIPOC community
right like, we're not immune to it.
No.
Right.
So there's also that, like when youthink about so many amazing celebrities
and I'm like, where are you right now?
(46:02):
That is true.
Reach like, you know, forgetlike the health and wellness.
I think that's one thing, but there'slike, And this, that could be a whole
other topic of conversation, but, I dotake your point that in the,, health and
wellness community, there is definitely
(46:24):
, a reluctance or an outright refusalor resistance to the work that
is necessary in the same way.
In the same way that like, I had tolook at in my early to mid twenties,
the ways that I was benefiting from thesystems of power that I had internalized
(46:49):
and I had to divest from them.
I think that these wellness people orpseudo spiritual people or whatever,
who have not looked at those things.
They have not honestly taken alook at how they are privileged.
And how they are continually,um, benefiting from the way
(47:12):
that the world is working, evenif it's unintentional, right?
Even if it's like, well, I'm safeover here, like, I'm, there are
so many atrocities in the world.
How could I just pick one to talk about?
It would be unfair, you know?
It's like, oh God, the amountof lack of self awareness that.
(47:35):
That it takes for that.
And that's really unfortunate.
But I think that at these times, more thanfocusing on unfollowing those people, I'm
focusing on, , who am I actually followingand following more, , leaders from the
(47:56):
so called global South, um, following alot more, , BIPOC educators and leaders
and wellness people and, , politicalactivists from all over the world.
I think that that's part ofwhat we're able to do and
then amplifying those voices
(48:22):
and I think parts of the reasonsthat the world is in such a bad state
is that there are still overall.
This mentality that Westernideology is the best ideology
and will ultimately save us.
So there's this kind of like waitingaround still, it's, it's a different
(48:46):
amplification of the white savior complex,if we looked to the wisdom from different
areas of the world, we, if we look toindigenous wisdom, if we looked to wisdom
coming from, you know, the global South.
There's a lot of wisdom thereand it is a completely, uh,
(49:12):
possible towards healing perspective that,, goes up against eons of white supremacy.
And , yeah, all we cando is our part in it.
And, and I don't mean that to say like allwe can do, like it's a little bit, it's
like, all we can do is what we must do.
(49:33):
Everything we get to the, to the maximumof what we can do is what we must do.
And so even if that's a small amount,even if that's reposting thought
leaders that, , you know, give differentperspectives, if it's decolonizing our
practice, if it's being honest with ourclients, if it's being with them and
(49:53):
loving nonjudgmental spaces so that theycan discover for themselves the ways that
they've internalized these things like.
If that's what we can do, andthat's all we can do, we better
do all the things we can do.
Right.
Right.
So you are one of the mostloving and caring humans.
(50:15):
I know.
How do you stay so loving and kind witheverything that is going on in the world?
I don't know.
Were you born with it?, You were sharingjust now that when you were younger,
they said that you would work for the UN.
(50:36):
Yeah, I mean, maybe,
maybe.
Yeah, maybe there's a part of it.
That's just how I am, how I operate.
, I also work very intentionally
(50:56):
to not get bitter and
defeated.
Although, of course, I do feelthose things some of the time.
But I have this commitment, this kindof inner commitment to continuing to
see beauty in the world and beautyin people and look towards kindness
(51:25):
and compassion as, I don't know, asa light source to keep going back to.
, and then I think on avery practical level.
I keep tapping into those thingsthrough my spiritual practice,
through being in nature, throughpraying, through reflecting, through
(51:48):
honest, good community dialoguewith, um with others who are in need.
Because sometimes it's like acandle that gets blown out like I
need to be resourced again.
And sometimes that resourcing thatlight that like flame comes back
from being out in the mountains andsometimes it's, you know, calling a
(52:12):
trusted person saying, God, I feelunable to get up and at it today, and
then get the support and keep going.
Well, you answered my next questionas to how do you look after yourself?
(52:33):
Yeah.
You've done a few podcasts.
I'm curious, is there questionsyou've always wanted to be
asked, but Never have been,
you know, I'm pretty verbose,like someone and I can talk
for like 20 minutes straight.
So I don't know.
(52:55):
, I kind of trust whatever questions come.
Some of the things I've saidin this podcast, I've never
spoken publicly about like ever.
So it's just fascinating.
It's like, okay, whatever that storyreally wanted to come out, I guess.
Um, or it has lessons for me, youknow, I think when we end this
(53:16):
recording and I, Go for a walk.
I'm definitely going to be thinkingback to that, presentation I
had back in 2013 and think abouthow would I do that differently.
How could I have been even more.
Um, I was very personally accountable,but I could have been more gentle and
(53:42):
less like, like, I was so shocked andlike, oh my God, like, you know, I
took responsibility for the hurt thatperson experienced in the presentation.
But I also was like, Ithink I could have been.
(54:04):
more loving.
So yeah, I'm going to walk awayand really think about that.
Every experience that I have is areally great opportunity to self
reflect so that I continue to showup as even better version of myself
moving forward all of the time.
(54:26):
And I think maybe the last thing I willsay is that I don't know that this is
a question that no one's ever askedme, but I think that's something that
I have been generally thinking about inthe context of being a therapist who's
also a human living imperfectly in animperfect world is,, the invitation
(54:50):
for other therapists to divorcethemselves from this idea that they
need to be this all knowing, super wise,always like with the perfect answers.
And of course do no harm, but also showup human, , so sick of Even on Instagram
(55:14):
coming across therapist and I'm like,why you just like swallowed a textbook
and you're just going to blab shit at me.
Oh, shoot.
Did I just ruin your content?
It's alright.
Can you edit it out?
I can, but maybe I'll just leaveit in there for some spiciness.
(55:37):
I think there wassomething about it, right?
Can we also Show up human withone another and be honest about
the things that we are learning.
, and not feel like we have to haveit all perfect before we, , share
(55:58):
what it is that we're learning.
, You know, I, I don't, Idon't find that helpful.
I read somewhere, someone had postedsomething that was like, your business
can't grow if you are too relatable.
(56:19):
You have to, people shouldn't.
Look at you and feel likethey see themselves in you.
They should look at you and wantto emulate you or want to be you.
I was like, I think that is partof the problematic systemic way of
thinking that is I am better than you.
So but the reality is no, I'mnot like, that's very egoic.
(56:41):
That's very, very egoic.
I would rather like be like.
I'm learning some things, you'relearning some things, maybe I'm, I have
different learnings than you do, maybeI have more skills in one area than
you do, but I'm not better than you.
I'm not a better human.
I'm not a, I am more healed than you are.
(57:02):
That's why I'm a therapistand you're just a client.
You know, that is not how this works.
I had a woman came into my inbox andgoes, you should never share stories about
other people's posts because you're thenyou're not promoting your own business.
(57:23):
I'm like, but how isthat building community?
How is that supporting other peoplethat their business, like I just, I, I.
I mean, that just points to that personhas a very individualistic perspective
(57:46):
versus a collective perspective, right?
You're looking at this world and thiswork in a communal, collective, Frame
and this person was looking at it fromlike, how are you as an individual
going to stand out and make it andgain followers and money and, you
know, this very individualistic system.
(58:09):
And, you're clear thatthat's not what you're about.
Last question for you.
Since you and I have the cutest dogs ever.
And our dogs are , a month apart in age,. What is the most surprising thing for you?
(58:32):
Or maybe a few like beingmama to a dog or a puppy?
The most surprising things?
You know, he's my first dogthat I've ever had, who's mine,
and he's very much my baby.
(58:55):
Um, I think the most surprisingthings are just how deeply Ooh.
Yes.
I'm talking about you.
Did you hear him bark?
? . I, I got a little thing.
I started talking.
I was like, yeah.
Uh, just how much I really,really, really, really love him.
(59:15):
Mm-Hmm.
And how much I really, really,really, really feel loved by him.
Hmm.
I mean, I knew that I would love my pet.
I didn't understand the depth.
I also really didn't understandthe depth that I would feel loved
by his presence or his care.
(59:36):
, I have never been a bigger fan ofpeople having pets than I am now.
Like the, the, the biggest,biggest blessing truly.
So healing.
I agree.
(59:59):
Is there any last advice orwisdom you would like to share
,When you feel like
you just, it has all fallen apart.
When you get to the point where you'relike, I just can't, it's, it's too much.
(01:00:26):
Remember that you aren't alone.
And if it's hard for you in thosemoments to remember that you're not
alone, when you're having a goodmoment, make a list of the people who.
Can remind you that you're notalone, so that when you're in
(01:00:47):
it when you're really in it andfeeling like you just can't anymore.
And you're too lonely
that you don't also have to thinkthe unhelpful thought of no one
understands me no one is there for meI'm all by myself it's like no here.
Here is a list of whatmaybe it's just one person.
(01:01:10):
Maybe it's five.
Maybe it's a Maybe it's a loved onein your life, like personal life, but
maybe it's your therapist, you know,
when we're at the bottom,bottom, bottom, it's essential
(01:01:33):
to know that we're not alone.
It's loneliness that is themost painful part I think.
As with a bit of company, eventhe darkest times can be endured.
(01:01:54):
It's like, I would never want to be out inthe woods, completely by myself at night.
But if I had my dog.
Or a friend with me in those darkesttimes, I would be much more able
and willing to wait for the light.
(01:02:15):
And I think it's like that when we'regoing through the deep heart stuff.
Thank you for being on the show today.
Thank you, Patricia.
Hmm, remember that you are not alone.
That is such a great advice.
I know it is hard when youare going through a hot time.
(01:02:39):
And you feel like no one cares,especially if you have no family
around or if you're a new immigrantand haven't made many friends.
Reach out to your coworkers oryour neighbors, if you need to.
You are not alone.
I walk our puppy a few times daily.
And in the afternoon we visit an elderlylady that lives across the street from us.
(01:03:05):
For a while.
I was worried that wewere imposing on her.
But yesterday, she toldus that our daily visits.
were one of the highlights of her day.
So you never know, do you?
Say hi to the next personyou see that might be exactly
what they need for that day.
Have a great week.
(01:03:27):
This is your Chinese auntie, Yi Yi.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
(01:03:48):
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapeterson.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
ca.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
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