May 17, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode, we delve into the often-misunderstood topic of email unsubscribes. We discuss the crucial need to reframe unsubscribes as a positive aspect of email marketing, highlighting how they can significantly enhance the health and engagement of your email list. By implementing strategies like sunset flows, reduced email frequency options, and personalized content based on subscriber preferences, businesses can effectively manage and even reduce their unsubscribe rates.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right, well, today we're going to go over decoding unsubscribes. We want to talk
about the myths surrounding unsubscribes and
why. Maybe we should have a different perspective on
unsubscribes because they can actually be such a good thing
for the health of your list. But before we get all into
that, I just kind of want to hear, Clara, what's going on with you?
(00:25):
What's something you're into? Let's just ease into this,
you know, instead of just tackling the topic. We'll get
there. But I want to hear a little bit about what, what have you been
up to? What's going on? Well, I. I am
good. I am good. I am
reading a book at the moment and I tend to read
(00:46):
a lot at this time of year. Like it's cold and dark
outside and I just, I like reading,
catching up on books. So a book I'm reading
or actually listening to at the moment is called the twelve week year. Have
you heard of it? No. Tell me about it.
So good. It's so good. It's by Brian Moran
(01:08):
and he basically talks about productivity in
how over the twelve week period rather than
a twelve month period. So more like quarterly.
Yeah, exactly. So you know where we set our goals for the year, we tend
to set them across an entire year. So, like, let's say you've got
goals to hit by December. You're in January now you're going to give
(01:30):
yourself an easier time because you've got another eleven months
to go, whereas Brian Moran
says actually we should set them over twelve weeks because we're more
likely to be motivated to do them. So. Yeah,
I really, I found that really fascinating. And he talks about
doing kind of like end of quarter reviews. So you see how
(01:53):
you do over that time and you're more likely to achieve your
overarching goal if you have these like mini, you know,
goals in between. So, yeah, I highly recommend it.
I don't know if you've read any of his other stuff, but
he's a New York Times bestseller, so. Cool. Definitely worth
checking out. Yeah. And I think that that's just the green light for us
(02:15):
to schedule our quarterly meeting.
We did an end of year meeting for goals. We did
another one, too. Like at some point in the year. Was it before the last
quarter? I don't remember when we met and had a goal meeting,
but maybe we should schedule one for like end of
March. Yeah. So Angie and I
(02:39):
organized these meetings one
towards the end of last year. And one at the start of this year. And
really, we're about holding each other account to account, right?
Yes. And I don't know
how we want to play those out, but I find them really
(02:59):
useful for being held to account because it's so
easy to say, yeah, I'll do that. And,
you know, the date comes around and it doesn't happen, so. Yeah,
I think more regular goal setting and accountability
is. Is what I need. Yeah. And I think we
naturally give that to each other, too, like, as we.
(03:21):
You know, one thing with Clara and I is we're usually voice memoing over
instagram. DM's pretty regularly on the daily
sometimes. So we also
are able to help each other through, like, smaller situations and
remembering big picture for one another, like, oh, yeah,
but, you know, you're working through this, so. Yeah, we should
(03:44):
definitely. We should do a quarterly meeting at the
end of March. I'm gonna hold you to that. I'm gonna hold you to that.
Okay. I'll send the invite. How about you? How are things
with you? What have you been up to? They're good. They're good. I
just got home from a parenting coach
session we have. For those of you who don't know, we have two kids under
(04:06):
five. Well, we're gonna have a five year old, and then we have a two
year old. And I don't know. I guess
according to what they say in the world, our five year old is a quote
unquote strong willed child. But
I think so that's why we initially reached out to
the parenting coach. But it's
(04:27):
just been more so for
us. Not really. I mean, of course, having to do with the child,
but also, like, how we're handling and managing our
emotions and our reactions and having plans in place and
redirecting and. Because everything that our
oldest son does is quite typical, quite normal. Yes. He's a little
(04:50):
bit more hard headed and know will, you
know, challenge us maybe more than
our younger son, but it's just. That's also very
normal. So, yeah, just another. Another
parenting coach session where I just feel like I went through therapy, and I'm just
like, yep, this is what I have to work on. This is what I have
(05:10):
to work on, which is good, because
it's really been a journey for me and
my husband in, you know, learning,
um, yeah, I guess, like, how to manage our emotions
or how to manage our kids better. Um, and it's really
paid off, you know, not just in,
(05:33):
you know, the household, and, again, how we're managing it, but
also like ourselves and, you know, not getting so
angry and our bush where we have a lot more patience and
we have a lot more control over situations and we're a lot more confident in
situations. Like, I know what to do. And that
really, like, the kids really
(05:55):
pick up on that. So the more confident that you are, the
more they just, like, respect you. Like our parenting coach always says,
like, kids act like they don't want to
not be controlled, but in a sense, like, kids act like they want to be
free. But really they thrive on routine. They thrive on boundaries like
they need it. And so underneath all the surface, they're craving that from
(06:18):
you. So that's just been a journey to, like,
create more of those boundaries and, like, that controlled atmosphere. But it really does pay
off credit. To you guys for investing in a
coach. I think it's so many parents are now
trying to do so many things, run a business or
in a busy job, run a household,
(06:39):
maintain family life, cook dinner. You know,
it's be in a marriage. Like it's. There's a lot going on. Right.
So it's overwhelming. So kudos to you
to getting a coach. You know, it's great.
Yeah. Yeah. It's really paid off. Highly recommend for anyone thinking about
it because, yeah, it's just really,
(07:02):
it's made our home so much better, you know, for everyone,
so. But are you ready to talk about
unsubscribes? Because I am. I am. I am.
I'm very much ready. Let's do it. Um,
okay, well, let's just introduce, you know.
Well, I don't want to say, like, what is an unsubscribe? But, like,
(07:25):
I guess you have to have an unsubscribe option in all of your
emails. Right. Let's just. Let's just talk about the
foundations, you know, like, of course we've got Google and Yahoo coming up. You. You
have to have it. You have to have a one click unsubscribe. You have to
make it super easy for people to unsubscribe.
So. And unsubscribes are a very natural part
(07:47):
of email marketing. Every time we send an email, we know we're going to get
unsubscribes. Right. So it just is what it is.
It really is. And I'm really looking forward to talking about this
because it's something that comes up a lot. And I think there's a lot of
fear attached to unsubscribes. And actually, you
know, we want to delve into that today and give you guys some
(08:09):
reality around what is actually
happening when someone unsubscribes and what it means for your business. There's so much
we want to share with you. Yeah, yeah. Really excited about that.
The first thing I kind of want to bring up
are the common myths surrounding unsubscribes.
You know, when you hear unsubscribes, it automatically. It's just a
(08:32):
negative connotation. Right. And
what do you find with your clients? Like, how do they feel about
unsubscribes? Like, what? What do they think about it?
Oh, exactly. As you say. Like, people see it as a negative
thing because it's almost like rejection. You know, when
someone unsubscribes, people take it personally.
(08:55):
And it's really interesting,
actually, that we want to be looking at our unsubscribe
rates closely because we want to be
monitoring, particularly with the changes coming up. I think it's now
0.3% that your unsubscribe rate must
be. It used to be under 1% was fine. And
(09:16):
now the rules are tightening up
the myths around people
not liking your content, actually.
Well, you know, is it a bad thing if they don't like your content, if
they're unsubscribing? Like, what are your thoughts, Angie?
I think that it's kind of twofold.
(09:40):
Someone unsubscribing doesn't necessarily mean that they don't like your
content. It could just mean that they're just not interested in your
products or services right now. I have had clients
say I sent an email that was really heartfelt and personal
and, like, it was about, like, my values as a brand or
whatever. And they're like. And then I just got all these
(10:02):
unsubscribes, and so that made them scared
then to be vulnerable and share that stuff. And I have to remind
them. You had three, five people unsubscribe, but how many
people are still on your list? You know, how many people
opened that email? Did you get any clicks? Usually
the engagement far outweighs the
(10:25):
unsubscribes. And I think it's like you said, people take it
personally, especially when they're creating their own
emails. This, I think this is another thing with it. Our clients typically
are writing their own emails. So it is personal to
them, but it doesn't, and I
try to remind them. It doesn't mean that they didn't like
(10:47):
that. To me, that's a great thing, that you're sending emails about your values and
that you're being vulnerable, I think it
probably meant that they just aren't interested in your content. Maybe
their inbox is just full of a bunch of emails and they went on a
whole unsubscribe spree. I do that all the time. Typically when
I unsubscribe, like, I'll, a lot of the stuff that I
(11:08):
sign up to, I'm getting gifts for my family members or my husband or
all of this stuff. So there's certain particular reasons why I get onto
lists and I don't need those
gifts anymore. I'm personally not interested in that stuff, and that's
okay. So I think there's just so many situations or
reasons why people unsubscribe. And I think to
(11:30):
assume that people just don't dislike your content,
that's going to hurt you more than it helps you. It's just going to make
you back away from emails, you know? Yeah,
absolutely. Absolutely. Like, think of it this way.
Imagine you are selling mattresses
and your customer buys a mattress.
(11:53):
Yeah. The next email. Is that going to be so relevant to them
when they have a mattress? No. Now, think of
your services and your products. You know, how are people
going through your customer journey? Are they already
in the process of buying from you? Have they already purchased from you?
Because someone unsubscribes, it means that they're not interested
(12:16):
at that point in time. It doesn't mean that they'll
never be interested in buying from you. It may be that they got what they
need for now. It may be that
this isn't the right time for them. There's a number of reasons, but there
is no point in getting hung up on
reasons why people are unsubscribing.
(12:39):
You know, it's, we can't take this
personally. This is just business. Right. We need to just move forward
and focus, as Angie says, on, look at all the people that have
engaged have clicked through. Look at the value you are
delivering to those that are engaging with your
email. Yeah. I think it's a tendency for us business
(13:01):
owners to focus on the negatives, right. We tend to look at, even if it's
one or two, three people, we focus on the negatives
and let's accept that unsubscribes are part
of business. It's going to happen.
I think another myth then that people believe is
that it's such a big loss for their business, which
(13:23):
I totally get. You work really hard to get people on your email list. Growing
your email list is no easy feat. You have
to throw money at it. Or you have to put in a lot of time
and energy around it. There's no way or. But there's no way around those two
things, in my opinion. And so I think
people are like, oh, I try so hard and I
(13:44):
put money into this and it's. That just means
that's another sale that's lost. What do you think about it?
Unsubscribes and it being a loss for their business.
It's interesting because it's really all about perception. It could
be that someone subscribed to your newsletter or your email list,
(14:05):
and they might be someone who's undecided about working with
you. And then as they've got to know what you're about, they realize
that you're not quite right for them or vice versa. So
an unsubscribe, I personally wouldn't
see it as a loss. It's a loss of someone that
no longer wants to receive your content. The same time,
(14:28):
it could be as simple as if we bring this
scenario into, let's say, for
example, you meet someone networking and you exchange business cards.
That is an exchange. So it's same as your email
subscriber whereby you've exchanged details, but
then you don't hear from that person ever again. It's kind of a similar
(14:51):
scenario. I personally think it's no loss for your business.
It's just these things happen. The one thing that, with all
these myths that we want to make sure you're doing is making sure you're
monitoring that this isn't happening on a large
scale. If you're suddenly getting 10%
unsubscribes, then yeah, there is a problem. We want to make sure
(15:12):
that then as long as the numbers are small
and as of February they are below
0.3%, then you
have a healthy unsubscribe rate. If it's over
that, then that's where we need to be looking at
what's going on. But these myths are linked to
(15:33):
very small numbers as an overall percentage.
Tiny. Not worth thinking about. Yeah. That's why you said
perspective is everything. I really love
your point on everybody that, everybody that you meet,
everybody that you talk to, everybody that you tell, this is what I
do. It's just an opportunity for your business. Most
(15:55):
of the times it's not going to amount to anything, you know? And
that's okay. It's just opening up more opportunities for
yourself. And if we can look at, okay, everybody who comes onto my
list, this is just an opportunity for me to share who I
am, what I offer. And I know that
most people who get on my list probably aren't going to take me up on
(16:16):
this opportunity. And that's okay. I'm doing this for
the one in ten or one in 100, whatever it is, for
me and you. So because it's just a
numbers game, purely, really, getting people on your email list is a
numbers game. And when I was in sales,
we had this thing that I think about all the time. It's like, how many
(16:38):
nos does it take for you to get to a. Yes. So you're
just getting through the nose, you know, so if I need
20 nos to a guest, all right, where's my 20 no's?
You know, so that I can get to that. Yes. And that's what it's
about. And then we don't dwell on the 20 no's. We know that's going to
happen. We know it's going to take a little bit. So
(17:00):
perspective is everything. It really,
really is. And, yeah, absolutely agree with you around
everyone you meet. It's an opportunity. But not all opportunities turn into
something. So that's a great way to describe unsubscribes, I think,
you know, it's fantastic that you're getting people onto your list,
but not everyone. You're not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
(17:22):
Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, it's
okay. Let's move into the positive sides
of unsubscribes now. I mean, I think
we've kind of. It's okay to get unsubscribes. It's normal. But,
like, it actually is good for you, too,
which I think if we had another perspective mind shift
(17:45):
on it and learned about this and started thinking about this
more, this would be even more helpful on how you perceive
unsubscribes. So what are the positives of
unsubscribes, Clara, what do you think? Oh, there are a
few, actually. And it's really good to share these because I think this
doesn't get enough airtime. No.
(18:07):
So think about your email list as a
house. Something that you want to keep clean and tidy.
And you want people who are on your list to be
engaged and interested in what you have to say
by someone unsubscribing from your list. It
actually is a positive action because it means that you're removing
(18:30):
anyone who's no longer interested. Therefore,
if you think about it, would you want someone
in your house that is no longer interested in hearing from
you? We want to be keeping it healthy, keeping it
clean, making sure that we've only got the people on there that want to hear
from us. And what does that mean then for your
(18:52):
performance? Well, actually by removing negative,
removing unsubscribes and those that are no longer interested in
your content, it means that your metrics are going to look a
lot better, a lot better, a lot healthier.
Yeah. I mean, like you said, an engaged
list is what makes sales through email marketing, which
(19:14):
is our overall goal with our emails. Right.
We want to use it to make money for our business and
we get sales in email marketing from people who open our
emails and click through and go purchase
something. So if someone's not doing that,
then what is the point of having them on the list, you know, I
(19:37):
mean, yes, we can take time, we can nurture those people and,
but at the end of the day, if somebody hasn't, is on your list
and hasn't been engaging with your
content for like a year, it's like, okay
that them not doing anything is actually hurting
your open rates, it's hurting your click rates. And when you talk
(20:00):
about deliverability, you know, showing up,
staying out of the spam folders, staying out of the junk
folders, that's what these email
inbox providers are looking at. They're looking at how many
people are actually opening your emails and engaging with
your emails versus how many people who aren't. And
(20:22):
if there's not a lot of people engaging with your emails,
then they're going to see that as a bad thing and they're going to start
saying, or the bots are going to be like, this looks like spam, this might
be spam and then you might have a higher probability of
going into the spam. So not only is it good
for your overall, like, you know, your metrics make you
(20:44):
feel good, but it's also good for inbox
providers. If we're getting rid of people who are unengaging
and we're keeping those click rates high because
then they're going to say, oh, these are, you know, this is a legit email
account. They're sending good content. People like their content. We're going to keep putting
them into the primary inbox or the promotional tab, whatever, whatever
(21:05):
you're using. So, which is so, so important.
Yeah. And you know, what deliverability is going to, you know,
is already a hot topic for the next couple of months that, you know, we
want to make sure that we are abiding by these new
rules and keeping our lists clean and
healthy and making sure that if someone puts their hand up and says,
(21:28):
I no longer want to receive your content. We quickly
move them out. Yes. We no longer want them there. We
want. We want this, right? We want people to tell us they're no longer
interested. You don't want them to mark you as spam.
You know, you don't want them to be ticking those
other boxes because, again, Google, Yahoo, those
(21:50):
inbox providers, what's the spam is? You know, point?
Is it 3% or something like that? Now they've just,
yeah, they've just, you know, tightened that up,
too. So,
yeah, you want to make sure that you have people on your list who actually
want to be there. Um, yeah, because they can hurt you.
(22:11):
Yeah, exactly. And you know what if you do lose
people over the course of a year, you know, like
we say, keep an eye on your rates, on your unsubscribe rates.
But ultimately a smaller, more engaged list
is going to be much more profitable for you in the long
run because they are engaged and they're more likely to buy
(22:34):
2nd, 3rd, 4th time from you rather than a group of people
who no longer care for your content. So, yeah,
there are many positives to unsubscribes
because, you know, ultimately you understand who wants to be on your
list. You understand that
unsubscribes will help your deliverability because
(22:56):
we are, in effect, seeing, you
know, we're seeing the positives of
unsubscribes in the sense that, you know, we're not going into
spam, which is a good thing.
And which can have long term repercussions. Oh,
I honestly, it's. You don't want to be in that
(23:18):
pickle. Yeah. It's really, really difficult to come out of the
spam folders. Like, it's, once you're marked as spam,
you're in big trouble. It's. Yeah, that's not necessarily. No.
Yeah, cash monies. Yeah.
Yeah. You don't know. You won't know. You won't know. All you'll
see is, like, a decline in your performance, but you won't know why.
(23:39):
So trust us when we say there are positives
to unsubscribes because, you know, you're keeping,
you only want to keep a list of engaged people, and the quicker you
can unsubscribe someone, the better. Yeah. And I
kind of want to talk a little bit about the list size
because that's the big thing with people, which, it's true.
(24:03):
The more people you have on your email list. And if you're
constantly growing that list, you have more of an
opportunity to make a sale. But
I have been inside so many email accounts that have
10,000, 30,000 people on their list,
but they aren't getting sales,
(24:26):
those people aren't engaging and they're not buying. Whereas I've
been in lists of 600 or 1000 people
and they get at least one sale or two sales from
every email they sent. So the size of
your list is not indicative and does not guarantee
the sales that you will get from that list. Those people
(24:49):
have to be engaged and they, you know, need to,
you know, I guess you want them to want to be on your
list because those people, they're going to buy if they want to be on your
list. Yeah. It's so funny that people get caught up on how big their
list size is and I actually ask a different question to say, you know,
how engaged is your audience? Because.
(25:10):
Exactly. That's what matters. It matters
more than size. Right. So quality
is important over quantity.
Yeah. Well, let's go into
your subscribers preferences because there are so
(25:30):
many, if you like. I mean, of course we want to keep people
engaged and how do we maybe stop them
from getting to a point where they feel like they need to
unsubscribe? Because there's also things that we can do. You know,
say someone unsubscribes because they don't want to get an email from
you every week, you know, but if it works for you to
(25:52):
send an email every week, then there are
things that you can do to, you know, not send them an email every week
and cater to their preferences and then maybe keep them on and
they might buy from you in three months. Let's talk about those
things that we could be doing. Yeah, it's a great subject,
actually, just around understanding subscriber
(26:14):
preferences. So one thing you can do. So say, for
example, you're used to sending a weekly email and you
might find that you're in a situation where you're seeing slightly higher
unsubscribe rates. What you could do is set up an
option for your subscribers to opt out of the
weekly and instead receive a more reduced
(26:36):
frequency from you. So say it's weekly. You can
offer them the chance to hear from you fortnightly or monthly.
And why is this an option for you? Well,
it means you don't lose a subscriber completely, but you give them
choice. And people love choice and people love to
have the opportunity to take ownership
(26:59):
of their preferences. So I've seen a lot of
companies do this where they give people the option
to receive much more reduced
frequency, or they say, would you like to take a break for three
months? Either our option depends on your business
and the kind of services and products you offer, but I think both are
(27:22):
great options to explore. Yeah,
it's fairly easy to set up a manage preferences page.
The only thing that you have to do is, I think
the challenge with that is getting people to actually fill it out and them
knowing that they have that option. So we've kind of talked
about how you could ask people, like,
(27:45):
through your onboarding, through your welcome series. Let me know your
preferences. Let me know how you want to hear from. I mean, you could create
an email that is for tell us your preferences
right now when they're super hot and super engaged, as
people tend to be when they first get onto your list.
But I do find that, you know, there are a lot of businesses out there
(28:07):
that they haven't made a manage preferences page. They may have, you
know, thousands of people on their list already.
In that case, I would send an, I would make the manage preference page
and I would send an email to everyone
asking them to fill it out. You're not going to get everyone to fill
it out, but you will get,
(28:29):
you know, a good amount, enough to possibly save you some
unsubscribes in the future. So. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's a great shout. Yeah, it's a great shout. And
actually, angie, there are people we know that I don't want to call them out
here, but there are some really simple things that people are
doing that are potentially costing them
(28:51):
subscribers. So it could be that they've got multiple
lead magnets running and people have signed up
to many of their lead magnets and they might be receiving
multiple emails on the same day. What could happen is
I unsubscribe from one email and that unsubscribes me from
all emails. So having this set up in
(29:14):
a way that says to me, right, if you want to
unsubscribe, you only will unsubscribe from this type of email going
forwards, or you can unsubscribe from all, but
making it more, a more considered
set of options for subscribers so that they don't
accidentally unsubscribe from everything. The thing that's
(29:37):
happening here is that many coaches, consultants, service providers,
ecommerce business owners don't realize that they can
set this up quite easily themselves. And so therefore
they're losing subscribers by people essentially
unsubscribing from all, because that's the only option they're giving
people. So giving people choice and
(29:59):
managing the subscribe process, the unsubscribe process,
rather, is a great way to try and
maintain healthy subscribe rates, but also
giving people what they want rather than unsubscribing for more than losing them
forever. Yeah. And so in that
sense, you know, instead of losing them, they
(30:21):
self segment themselves. They say, you know, or I
want to. It could be a frequency thing or like you said, it could be
a content thing. Right. You know, if we have a lot of lead magnets or
we have a lot of ways people have come onto our list
and these people do have specific
problems that might not be the same problem as
another person that's on your list. And I think one
(30:44):
thing that we haven't really discussed is segmenting.
But in
that managed preference phrase, if you give them an option to be like, I want
to hear content about X, you
know, they're obviously having problems with that or they need help with
that, whereas another person's like, well, I want to hear content about why. So
(31:06):
when you give them the option, oh, let's, I'm going to go into the y
bracket or I'm going to go into the X bracket, they're actually giving you
this incredible opportunity to really
personalize the next email you send them to speak
directly to their problems and speak
directly to their needs. That's the kind of email marketing that
(31:27):
personalized, segmented email marketing
that really gets good engagement and
sees great numbers. So that's a
really good thing. If you can, if they self segment
themselves and they tell you what they actually want to hear about, you could really
capitalize on that. Yeah, absolutely. And actually,
(31:48):
the flip side of reducing unsubscribes is by
doing this, giving people the content that they're interested
in. And so segmentation allows for that because you're
only giving people the content that they're most likely to want to
hear about. So therefore you're reducing the chances
of an unsubscribe. So, yeah, segmentation
(32:11):
is a wonderful opportunity for you to really
speak to your subscribers specific
problems without having to kind of spray and pray and
send the same content to everyone. Yeah,
absolutely. Because another thing about
unsubscribes to manage them
(32:32):
better is making sure you have good content. I mean,
we talk about this so much that so much of email marketing
is the content that you're sending. Is it relevant?
Why should they care? Does it help them in some
way? If it's not, then, yeah, they're gonna
(32:53):
they're gonna say goodbye, you know, and that's,
um. But we could really take more control of
our own subscribes or even the revenue that we're seeing from emails, if
we really invest in compelling content,
and especially compelling content to different segments of
people, depending on where they are on the buyer's journey, um, and
(33:15):
what they're running into and how you can help them.
Yeah. And the great thing about email marketing is there's no guesswork.
You can see from your previous campaigns or
previous workflows, like, how is your
content performing? You know, what is it that's resonating with your
audience? Yeah. Because we, you know,
(33:37):
we suggest that with any content you're looking at performance,
you know, what kind of results are you getting from your
previous email? Like, what were the click rates? Were people
opening? You know, there are so many indicators as to,
like, how people are engaging with your content.
So when people say to me, I don't know what to write,
(33:59):
you know, I'm not sure what's working, what isn't working. Well, I always say,
show me your last five emails, tell me how they're
performing, because that's such a great indicator of
what's working, what they'll tell you. Your audience will tell you
what's working. Yeah. People vote. It's called a click.
Exactly, exactly. And there's, like I said, there's no
(34:22):
guesswork. You don't have to. I say with other marketing disciplines,
like pr or advertising or maybe like, you
know, billboard type advertising, it's hard to know what's working.
With email. We can see the interaction, we can see the
click. So your content is so, so
important. Yeah. And it's very easy to
(34:44):
take more control of that content just by looking at the numbers.
What got me the highest click rate? What's the product that, like,
I send out to people and people go gaga over, you know?
Yeah. And then just like, what content? What more content
can I make around that, you know? Yeah.
So what about reengagement? How do
(35:06):
you engage people? What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah. Win back campaigns. Right. I think
I always set up for my clients not just a win back campaign,
but then also off of the win back campaign, a sunset flow.
We'll talk about that. Taking unsubscribes into your own hands.
(35:27):
But first, we always try, like one last ditch
effort to get them back on board or to just see that if they're
interested, maybe send
them an offer or just
straight up ask them they're interested in hearing from us.
I do find, you know, people engage with those and then once they
(35:50):
start engaging with the win back campaigns, maybe they buy something, maybe
not. You could possibly get them
to, you know, you're in front of them again and, you know,
you can. Yeah, engage. I actually,
I'm working on one at the moment for a client. Yeah. It's,
it's a reengagement strategy. Then it flows into a
(36:13):
sunset flow. And it's interesting because it's
trying to work out what, like, the definition of
what disengaged is for this particular
business because it varies. Right. For each. Yeah, that's the hardest
part. So we need
to do some look at some insights as to
(36:35):
what disengaged means for this business. But there's some really cool things you can do.
Like, you know, the typical we miss you campaign, which can work really
well, but you've also introduced a time lapsed
offer, which I can't wait for us to test.
That typically, typically works really well when you have some urgency.
So you're giving a small segment of people that are
(36:58):
lapsing an offer and if they don't
respond, then they go into a sunset flow. And we
essentially, you're essentially managing people out of your
list, but giving them so many chances to stay.
So many chances to stay. So there are so many
different tactics you can use, but sunset flows are a really good
(37:20):
way to kind of manage people out, but give them that final chance to say
hello, to say stay. Yeah. And in that
sunset flow, I will. I always have an
email or an option for them to manage their preferences too. Yeah.
Like, I use the managed preferences.
Typically. Typically the sunset flow. I only make like two
(37:42):
emails. I don't, I don't know, two or three I would cap it
at because it's going to get low engagement because you are
sending it to people who are not engaging
intentionally. And I always put, like,
you, you know, what do you want to hear about one last ditch
effort? You could also add, like, either in those
(38:04):
windback or sunset flows. What's new?
Like, what things have you added to your business? What updates do you have?
How are you making their lives easier? If
they've implemented any other ways that people
can work with you or take advantage of your products or
just like make shopping on their site easier. That's other
(38:26):
stuff that I will also try. Um, inside those
flows. Yeah, that's a great shout. That's something that
a lot of people don't do is actually communicate. Because when people
sign up to hear from you, then maybe it was some time
ago. And now they, you know, maybe they've stopped reading. Well, they have
certainly stopped engaging with you. So now's the time to tell them,
(38:48):
you know, here's, you know, what's new with us, but also
it's a good chance to get some feedback, I think, from the
subscriber, you know, like, what's changed for them, why?
You know, we ultimately want to know
what's happening to have changed. You know, what's the
driving reason behind the change in behavior, particularly if they
(39:10):
were highly engaged before. So any
kind of feedback can really help because it could be that there's something going
wrong with the customer journey. It could be that they had a bad experience and
no one knows about it. It could be that they just simply
no longer need your service or product. But
it's dangerous to make assumptions. So feedback at this point is so
(39:33):
useful. That's a very good point. Yeah. But the
thing to be aware of is that, as you said earlier, Angie, is that you
may get low responses at this point because people have already maybe
checked out. But it can be really interesting to see what
people say when they completely surveyed.
It's such useful insight that can feed back into the business.
(39:56):
Yeah. I always see those surveys, at least for
myself, when I go to unsubscribe from a list, you'll
see they ask you, why are you unsubscribing?
I've never actually implemented that on the
unsubscribe, on the back end of an unsubscribe,
but I would implement it into a sunset flow for sure.
(40:19):
Yeah, I think it could be really interesting because
you could personalize that
survey beyond. I'm receiving too many
emails. If we can really understand what's going on, we might be able to go
back and improve our unsubscribe rates
overall. There are feedback loops
(40:41):
to allow you to understand what's going on, particularly for those of you that
are receiving high unsubscribe rates. And
for those that are receiving high unsubscribe rates,
we suggest that you take. That's something you have to prioritize
looking at. Oh, yeah. If there's a problem,
(41:01):
you need to look at that straight away because that will cause you harm.
So, yeah, don't leave that. That's something that must be looked at right
away. Yeah. And then if they go through your
sunset flow and they don't engage with that, they don't click
it, at least in Klaviyo, then
it tags the profile as
(41:24):
unengaged. I mean, you can have it tag whatever you want. And
then I usually take that segment and I just
unsubscribe them myself every
few months or so just to keep the
list clean and healthy because that is the most important
thing. Above all, it can be really hard to do.
(41:47):
I think it's a lot easier for me to do as the email marketer, you
know, not the person who is the business owner.
I see how that could be just like a punch in the,
but again, the less the list, health is so important,
and it is important to clean your list on a
regular basis because a lot of people, they're not going to unsubscribe
(42:09):
themselves. They're just going to, you know, not open your emails and keep
hurting your open rates and click rates and possibly your
deliverability. And so in that, in those
cases, you know, we need to, we need to look out for ourselves. We need
to look out for our list. Yeah, 100%. I think with
the rules tightening, I think every three months is a
(42:31):
good time to check in and look at your
unsubscribes. A lot of the email service providers
give you. You know, they actually help you identify who the
kind of inactives are or those that are lapsing.
And you can choose what to do. You know, we suggested doing a
reengagement flow, a sunset flow, but you
(42:53):
might choose to just unsubscribe them if you, you know, it's your
list. The one thing actually, that I wanted to say
when it comes to losing people, the other side of
it is to ensure you have people coming onto your list. You're always
growing your list because the reality is, yeah, you're going to lose
people through the unsubscribe process, as we mentioned, for the reasons
(43:16):
we've talked about today. But there always
should be people coming onto your list so that it's
continually growing. So as much attention
as you are giving to your unsubscribe process, you should be also looking at
your list growth and bringing new people,
fresh, fresh new people onto your list. I actually read a
(43:39):
stat earlier or last week that said that
every year, which, I mean, this is from, I don't
know who they polled or whatever, but every year, 22% of your list
becomes unengaged, which is such a
big chunk. I believe it because I do
see my clients who aren't really
(44:01):
focusing on list growth.
Yeah, their email marketing is
not doing horribly, but it's definitely not progressing
and growing. So
I believe that for sure that you will always,
just as we will always have people unsubscribing we're going to have a big chunk
(44:23):
of people who are becoming unengaged, and we need
to replenish that list knowing that that is the natural
cycle of an email marketing list. We have to keep feeding the
wheel because people are going to leave.
Yeah. It's just the way of the world. It's just one of those things
that happens in email marketing. We have to accept it. But at the same time,
(44:45):
remember, if someone has, I think, of a clothing
brand that I have recently unsubscribed from, I
know probably later on in the year when I'm looking for a new
dress, I will resubscribe. Yes. So
don't think it's forever. I don't think it's like a breakup that's
permanent. It could be actually that that person just needs a break for
(45:07):
now and they'll come back to you. If they really like
your stuff and they
enjoyed working with you or purchasing your products
or services, they'll be back. It's not just because they
unsubscribe. Yeah. It doesn't mean they hate you. It doesn't mean
they never want to see you again. It just means not right now. Yeah.
(45:29):
That's really. That's all it means. Not right now.
Yeah. You're absolutely right. I do that all the time. I will unsubscribe. Like I
said, I buy a lot of gifts, you know, at Christmas time, after Christmas, you
see a lot of unsubscribes because that's exactly what people are doing. They're like,
well, I know I'm probably not going to buy this again, at least maybe until
November or October, whatever.
(45:51):
And they will unsubscribe scribe themselves just to clean up their
inboxes. And kudos to them, you know, because if they're not going to for
us throughout the year, then okay, that's fine. Yeah. It's a two
way thing. They no longer want to receive content that is not
useful. And you, you
are left with a clean and healthy list of people that only want to hear
(46:14):
from you and read your content. So it's a win
win. It is a win win. I
think we about covered everything with unsubscribes. Is
there, do you have any last thoughts about
unsubscribes or what I hope people take
away from this? Yeah, I think the takeaway that I'd like
(46:35):
to make sure that people are left with is
just the mindset around unsubscribes. And hopefully we've
shared some tips and advice today
on actually it's not a bad thing. It's just not
right now. And, you know, there are positives
to unsubscribes. As long as you're
(46:58):
monitoring your numbers and making sure you're doing the things we talked about
today, I think you'll be in a good position. So, yeah,
we don't want you to feel like
unsubscribes are a bad thing. You know, as we
said, there are many positives. It's just about, you know, it's kind of
reclaiming the power over your list, isn't it? Yeah, it's owning
(47:21):
your list. It is. And, like,
what happens because of that is a healthier
list of engaged people. So better inbox placement
or just making sure you're not put into spam and hopefully
attracting more people who are engaged and want to be, you
know, receiving your content. So honestly, at the end
(47:43):
of the day, like, unsubscribes are a very good thing.
It's a very positive thing for your list. So hopefully
we can kind of flip that switch on the perspective for
you and you can welcome unsubscribes with open arms
because, you know, it's. It's actually a good thing for you. Yeah.
Yeah. So I guess we'll round
(48:07):
it out. I always like to round it out with
client wins or maybe weird stuff we're seeing in the
inbox or what we're working on this week.
What have you got for us this week, Clara? Yeah, I'm
actually working on a really cool customer journey, building out
some flows for a client and
(48:29):
it's really exciting because. And working through
the onboarding experience and, yeah, there's some
really interesting things we want to try. We want to actually do
a summary email where we bring in multiple
updates into one weekly email. So
(48:50):
a little bit technical, but something really exciting for the client.
So, yeah, I'm looking forward to trying that one. How about you?
You'll have to tell us how it goes, what type of engagement you see from
it, so we can possibly implement that.
I've honestly, I have a client who is
launching. She does two launches a year for
(49:12):
a program and we're
launching on Saturday. We have all of the emails set up for it,
everything set up in the back end. But I'm really, really
excited for this client because they, like six months
ago started a podcast. This podcast has
just been going bananas for this client and
(49:35):
because of that, their list is growing literally
by the hundreds each week. So we want to talk about
growing a list and the importance of growing the list. Well,
because of this new growth in the
list, you know, this person would, would
regularly see maybe 30 sign ups per cycle
(49:57):
and she has a waitlist of
like 900 right now. And
we can only cap the program to like, I think 80.
And now we're just kind of really nervous that we're
thinking about the emails that we're good. The emails that we're going to send that
are like, it's sold out. Sorry. Like, how do you, how do
(50:19):
you work with us? So I think, like, just the
opportunity that, you know, getting people
getting into your sphere and signing up onto your email list and
it has really paid off for this client.
So keep that in mind. You know,
it's amazing for your client. Yeah. It shows the power of an email list and
(50:41):
actually launching to an email list and being
essentially over subscribed is amazing. Yeah. So
congrats to your client. Oh, yeah, she did. I didn't do
anything, but. Sure you did.
Yes. I've been helping, obviously with all of the launch and everything with
that, but I just think, yeah, I just,
(51:02):
I know everybody wants to grow their list, but like
you said, it's hard and you got to put yourself out there. You got to
be doing something to get more eyes on you and your brand
and people becoming aware of you. But if you can put that energy and
effort or even money towards it, man, the repercussions of that,
the opportunities, the growth you can see from that is
(51:25):
just beyond. I'm witnessing it with my own eyes.
It's very inspiring. It's huge email list.
Growth is so important, even for the biggest companies that
think they have enough people on their lists. There's always
attrition, there's always people unsubscribing. As we've talked about today,
you need to make sure you've always got new people coming in. So, yeah,
(51:48):
the power of an email list is huge. It is huge.
Huge. And an engaged list. I will say that I think one
thing that's very important about this growth that this client has
seen, it's coming from a podcast that is
attracting their ideal customer, attracting their ideal
audience. So I think that's also very important
(52:09):
is these people are also, you know, just a good
match. For what? For their services. Because we've talked about, you
could have a huge list, but if they're not
ideal customers or if they're not engaging, you
know, so it is important when you're growing your list. We don't. We could do
a whole episode on this to just make sure you are attracting people who
(52:31):
are the right fit for your products and services? Oh,
absolutely. It's so important. And I think we should do a podcast
on this topic because it's so big. Yeah, maybe we'll. It's so big.
Maybe that'll be our next one. I don't know. You can always let us know.
Email us. Let us know. Yeah. Drop us a note and let us know the
subjects you want to hear about from us. We'd be happy to dedicate a
(52:54):
podcast to it. We're not short on ideas, but we would rather
give you what you want to hear and what's going to help you with your
business right now, so. Exactly. All
right, thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Make sure you leave us a review.
Yeah. And we'll see you the next time. We'll
see you on the next pod. Thank you.
(53:18):
Bye.
All right, well, today we're going to go over decoding unsubscribes. We want to talk
about the myths surrounding unsubscribes and
why. Maybe we should have a different perspective on
unsubscribes because they can actually be such a good thing
for the health of your list. But before we get all into
that, I just kind of want to hear, Clara, what's going on with you?
(00:25):
What's something you're into? Let's just ease into this,
you know, instead of just tackling the topic. We'll get
there. But I want to hear a little bit about what, what have you been
up to? What's going on? Well, I. I am
good. I am good. I am
reading a book at the moment and I tend to read
(00:46):
a lot at this time of year. Like it's cold and dark
outside and I just, I like reading,
catching up on books. So a book I'm reading
or actually listening to at the moment is called the twelve week year. Have
you heard of it? No. Tell me about it.
So good. It's so good. It's by Brian Moran
(01:08):
and he basically talks about productivity in
how over the twelve week period rather than
a twelve month period. So more like quarterly.
Yeah, exactly. So you know where we set our goals for the year, we tend
to set them across an entire year. So, like, let's say you've got
goals to hit by December. You're in January now you're going to give
(01:30):
yourself an easier time because you've got another eleven months
to go, whereas Brian Moran
says actually we should set them over twelve weeks because we're more
likely to be motivated to do them. So. Yeah,
I really, I found that really fascinating. And he talks about
doing kind of like end of quarter reviews. So you see how
(01:53):
you do over that time and you're more likely to achieve your
overarching goal if you have these like mini, you know,
goals in between. So, yeah, I highly recommend it.
I don't know if you've read any of his other stuff, but
he's a New York Times bestseller, so. Cool. Definitely worth
checking out. Yeah. And I think that that's just the green light for us
(02:15):
to schedule our quarterly meeting.
We did an end of year meeting for goals. We did
another one, too. Like at some point in the year. Was it before the last
quarter? I don't remember when we met and had a goal meeting,
but maybe we should schedule one for like end of
March. Yeah. So Angie and I
(02:39):
organized these meetings one
towards the end of last year. And one at the start of this year. And
really, we're about holding each other account to account, right?
Yes. And I don't know
how we want to play those out, but I find them really
(02:59):
useful for being held to account because it's so
easy to say, yeah, I'll do that. And,
you know, the date comes around and it doesn't happen, so. Yeah,
I think more regular goal setting and accountability
is. Is what I need. Yeah. And I think we
naturally give that to each other, too, like, as we.
(03:21):
You know, one thing with Clara and I is we're usually voice memoing over
instagram. DM's pretty regularly on the daily
sometimes. So we also
are able to help each other through, like, smaller situations and
remembering big picture for one another, like, oh, yeah,
but, you know, you're working through this, so. Yeah, we should
(03:44):
definitely. We should do a quarterly meeting at the
end of March. I'm gonna hold you to that. I'm gonna hold you to that.
Okay. I'll send the invite. How about you? How are things
with you? What have you been up to? They're good. They're good. I
just got home from a parenting coach
session we have. For those of you who don't know, we have two kids under
(04:06):
five. Well, we're gonna have a five year old, and then we have a two
year old. And I don't know. I guess
according to what they say in the world, our five year old is a quote
unquote strong willed child. But
I think so that's why we initially reached out to
the parenting coach. But it's
(04:27):
just been more so for
us. Not really. I mean, of course, having to do with the child,
but also, like, how we're handling and managing our
emotions and our reactions and having plans in place and
redirecting and. Because everything that our
oldest son does is quite typical, quite normal. Yes. He's a little
(04:50):
bit more hard headed and know will, you
know, challenge us maybe more than
our younger son, but it's just. That's also very
normal. So, yeah, just another. Another
parenting coach session where I just feel like I went through therapy, and I'm just
like, yep, this is what I have to work on. This is what I have
(05:10):
to work on, which is good, because
it's really been a journey for me and
my husband in, you know, learning,
um, yeah, I guess, like, how to manage our emotions
or how to manage our kids better. Um, and it's really
paid off, you know, not just in,
(05:33):
you know, the household, and, again, how we're managing it, but
also like ourselves and, you know, not getting so
angry and our bush where we have a lot more patience and
we have a lot more control over situations and we're a lot more confident in
situations. Like, I know what to do. And that
really, like, the kids really
(05:55):
pick up on that. So the more confident that you are, the
more they just, like, respect you. Like our parenting coach always says,
like, kids act like they don't want to
not be controlled, but in a sense, like, kids act like they want to be
free. But really they thrive on routine. They thrive on boundaries like
they need it. And so underneath all the surface, they're craving that from
(06:18):
you. So that's just been a journey to, like,
create more of those boundaries and, like, that controlled atmosphere. But it really does pay
off credit. To you guys for investing in a
coach. I think it's so many parents are now
trying to do so many things, run a business or
in a busy job, run a household,
(06:39):
maintain family life, cook dinner. You know,
it's be in a marriage. Like it's. There's a lot going on. Right.
So it's overwhelming. So kudos to you
to getting a coach. You know, it's great.
Yeah. Yeah. It's really paid off. Highly recommend for anyone thinking about
it because, yeah, it's just really,
(07:02):
it's made our home so much better, you know, for everyone,
so. But are you ready to talk about
unsubscribes? Because I am. I am. I am.
I'm very much ready. Let's do it. Um,
okay, well, let's just introduce, you know.
Well, I don't want to say, like, what is an unsubscribe? But, like,
(07:25):
I guess you have to have an unsubscribe option in all of your
emails. Right. Let's just. Let's just talk about the
foundations, you know, like, of course we've got Google and Yahoo coming up. You. You
have to have it. You have to have a one click unsubscribe. You have to
make it super easy for people to unsubscribe.
So. And unsubscribes are a very natural part
(07:47):
of email marketing. Every time we send an email, we know we're going to get
unsubscribes. Right. So it just is what it is.
It really is. And I'm really looking forward to talking about this
because it's something that comes up a lot. And I think there's a lot of
fear attached to unsubscribes. And actually, you
know, we want to delve into that today and give you guys some
(08:09):
reality around what is actually
happening when someone unsubscribes and what it means for your business. There's so much
we want to share with you. Yeah, yeah. Really excited about that.
The first thing I kind of want to bring up
are the common myths surrounding unsubscribes.
You know, when you hear unsubscribes, it automatically. It's just a
(08:32):
negative connotation. Right. And
what do you find with your clients? Like, how do they feel about
unsubscribes? Like, what? What do they think about it?
Oh, exactly. As you say. Like, people see it as a negative
thing because it's almost like rejection. You know, when
someone unsubscribes, people take it personally.
(08:55):
And it's really interesting,
actually, that we want to be looking at our unsubscribe
rates closely because we want to be
monitoring, particularly with the changes coming up. I think it's now
0.3% that your unsubscribe rate must
be. It used to be under 1% was fine. And
(09:16):
now the rules are tightening up
the myths around people
not liking your content, actually.
Well, you know, is it a bad thing if they don't like your content, if
they're unsubscribing? Like, what are your thoughts, Angie?
I think that it's kind of twofold.
(09:40):
Someone unsubscribing doesn't necessarily mean that they don't like your
content. It could just mean that they're just not interested in your
products or services right now. I have had clients
say I sent an email that was really heartfelt and personal
and, like, it was about, like, my values as a brand or
whatever. And they're like. And then I just got all these
(10:02):
unsubscribes, and so that made them scared
then to be vulnerable and share that stuff. And I have to remind
them. You had three, five people unsubscribe, but how many
people are still on your list? You know, how many people
opened that email? Did you get any clicks? Usually
the engagement far outweighs the
(10:25):
unsubscribes. And I think it's like you said, people take it
personally, especially when they're creating their own
emails. This, I think this is another thing with it. Our clients typically
are writing their own emails. So it is personal to
them, but it doesn't, and I
try to remind them. It doesn't mean that they didn't like
(10:47):
that. To me, that's a great thing, that you're sending emails about your values and
that you're being vulnerable, I think it
probably meant that they just aren't interested in your content. Maybe
their inbox is just full of a bunch of emails and they went on a
whole unsubscribe spree. I do that all the time. Typically when
I unsubscribe, like, I'll, a lot of the stuff that I
(11:08):
sign up to, I'm getting gifts for my family members or my husband or
all of this stuff. So there's certain particular reasons why I get onto
lists and I don't need those
gifts anymore. I'm personally not interested in that stuff, and that's
okay. So I think there's just so many situations or
reasons why people unsubscribe. And I think to
(11:30):
assume that people just don't dislike your content,
that's going to hurt you more than it helps you. It's just going to make
you back away from emails, you know? Yeah,
absolutely. Absolutely. Like, think of it this way.
Imagine you are selling mattresses
and your customer buys a mattress.
(11:53):
Yeah. The next email. Is that going to be so relevant to them
when they have a mattress? No. Now, think of
your services and your products. You know, how are people
going through your customer journey? Are they already
in the process of buying from you? Have they already purchased from you?
Because someone unsubscribes, it means that they're not interested
(12:16):
at that point in time. It doesn't mean that they'll
never be interested in buying from you. It may be that they got what they
need for now. It may be that
this isn't the right time for them. There's a number of reasons, but there
is no point in getting hung up on
reasons why people are unsubscribing.
(12:39):
You know, it's, we can't take this
personally. This is just business. Right. We need to just move forward
and focus, as Angie says, on, look at all the people that have
engaged have clicked through. Look at the value you are
delivering to those that are engaging with your
email. Yeah. I think it's a tendency for us business
(13:01):
owners to focus on the negatives, right. We tend to look at, even if it's
one or two, three people, we focus on the negatives
and let's accept that unsubscribes are part
of business. It's going to happen.
I think another myth then that people believe is
that it's such a big loss for their business, which
(13:23):
I totally get. You work really hard to get people on your email list. Growing
your email list is no easy feat. You have
to throw money at it. Or you have to put in a lot of time
and energy around it. There's no way or. But there's no way around those two
things, in my opinion. And so I think
people are like, oh, I try so hard and I
(13:44):
put money into this and it's. That just means
that's another sale that's lost. What do you think about it?
Unsubscribes and it being a loss for their business.
It's interesting because it's really all about perception. It could
be that someone subscribed to your newsletter or your email list,
(14:05):
and they might be someone who's undecided about working with
you. And then as they've got to know what you're about, they realize
that you're not quite right for them or vice versa. So
an unsubscribe, I personally wouldn't
see it as a loss. It's a loss of someone that
no longer wants to receive your content. The same time,
(14:28):
it could be as simple as if we bring this
scenario into, let's say, for
example, you meet someone networking and you exchange business cards.
That is an exchange. So it's same as your email
subscriber whereby you've exchanged details, but
then you don't hear from that person ever again. It's kind of a similar
(14:51):
scenario. I personally think it's no loss for your business.
It's just these things happen. The one thing that, with all
these myths that we want to make sure you're doing is making sure you're
monitoring that this isn't happening on a large
scale. If you're suddenly getting 10%
unsubscribes, then yeah, there is a problem. We want to make sure
(15:12):
that then as long as the numbers are small
and as of February they are below
0.3%, then you
have a healthy unsubscribe rate. If it's over
that, then that's where we need to be looking at
what's going on. But these myths are linked to
(15:33):
very small numbers as an overall percentage.
Tiny. Not worth thinking about. Yeah. That's why you said
perspective is everything. I really love
your point on everybody that, everybody that you meet,
everybody that you talk to, everybody that you tell, this is what I
do. It's just an opportunity for your business. Most
(15:55):
of the times it's not going to amount to anything, you know? And
that's okay. It's just opening up more opportunities for
yourself. And if we can look at, okay, everybody who comes onto my
list, this is just an opportunity for me to share who I
am, what I offer. And I know that
most people who get on my list probably aren't going to take me up on
(16:16):
this opportunity. And that's okay. I'm doing this for
the one in ten or one in 100, whatever it is, for
me and you. So because it's just a
numbers game, purely, really, getting people on your email list is a
numbers game. And when I was in sales,
we had this thing that I think about all the time. It's like, how many
(16:38):
nos does it take for you to get to a. Yes. So you're
just getting through the nose, you know, so if I need
20 nos to a guest, all right, where's my 20 no's?
You know, so that I can get to that. Yes. And that's what it's
about. And then we don't dwell on the 20 no's. We know that's going to
happen. We know it's going to take a little bit. So
(17:00):
perspective is everything. It really,
really is. And, yeah, absolutely agree with you around
everyone you meet. It's an opportunity. But not all opportunities turn into
something. So that's a great way to describe unsubscribes, I think,
you know, it's fantastic that you're getting people onto your list,
but not everyone. You're not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
(17:22):
Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, it's
okay. Let's move into the positive sides
of unsubscribes now. I mean, I think
we've kind of. It's okay to get unsubscribes. It's normal. But,
like, it actually is good for you, too,
which I think if we had another perspective mind shift
(17:45):
on it and learned about this and started thinking about this
more, this would be even more helpful on how you perceive
unsubscribes. So what are the positives of
unsubscribes, Clara, what do you think? Oh, there are a
few, actually. And it's really good to share these because I think this
doesn't get enough airtime. No.
(18:07):
So think about your email list as a
house. Something that you want to keep clean and tidy.
And you want people who are on your list to be
engaged and interested in what you have to say
by someone unsubscribing from your list. It
actually is a positive action because it means that you're removing
(18:30):
anyone who's no longer interested. Therefore,
if you think about it, would you want someone
in your house that is no longer interested in hearing from
you? We want to be keeping it healthy, keeping it
clean, making sure that we've only got the people on there that want to hear
from us. And what does that mean then for your
(18:52):
performance? Well, actually by removing negative,
removing unsubscribes and those that are no longer interested in
your content, it means that your metrics are going to look a
lot better, a lot better, a lot healthier.
Yeah. I mean, like you said, an engaged
list is what makes sales through email marketing, which
(19:14):
is our overall goal with our emails. Right.
We want to use it to make money for our business and
we get sales in email marketing from people who open our
emails and click through and go purchase
something. So if someone's not doing that,
then what is the point of having them on the list, you know, I
(19:37):
mean, yes, we can take time, we can nurture those people and,
but at the end of the day, if somebody hasn't, is on your list
and hasn't been engaging with your
content for like a year, it's like, okay
that them not doing anything is actually hurting
your open rates, it's hurting your click rates. And when you talk
(20:00):
about deliverability, you know, showing up,
staying out of the spam folders, staying out of the junk
folders, that's what these email
inbox providers are looking at. They're looking at how many
people are actually opening your emails and engaging with
your emails versus how many people who aren't. And
(20:22):
if there's not a lot of people engaging with your emails,
then they're going to see that as a bad thing and they're going to start
saying, or the bots are going to be like, this looks like spam, this might
be spam and then you might have a higher probability of
going into the spam. So not only is it good
for your overall, like, you know, your metrics make you
(20:44):
feel good, but it's also good for inbox
providers. If we're getting rid of people who are unengaging
and we're keeping those click rates high because
then they're going to say, oh, these are, you know, this is a legit email
account. They're sending good content. People like their content. We're going to keep putting
them into the primary inbox or the promotional tab, whatever, whatever
(21:05):
you're using. So, which is so, so important.
Yeah. And you know, what deliverability is going to, you know,
is already a hot topic for the next couple of months that, you know, we
want to make sure that we are abiding by these new
rules and keeping our lists clean and
healthy and making sure that if someone puts their hand up and says,
(21:28):
I no longer want to receive your content. We quickly
move them out. Yes. We no longer want them there. We
want. We want this, right? We want people to tell us they're no longer
interested. You don't want them to mark you as spam.
You know, you don't want them to be ticking those
other boxes because, again, Google, Yahoo, those
(21:50):
inbox providers, what's the spam is? You know, point?
Is it 3% or something like that? Now they've just,
yeah, they've just, you know, tightened that up,
too. So,
yeah, you want to make sure that you have people on your list who actually
want to be there. Um, yeah, because they can hurt you.
(22:11):
Yeah, exactly. And you know what if you do lose
people over the course of a year, you know, like
we say, keep an eye on your rates, on your unsubscribe rates.
But ultimately a smaller, more engaged list
is going to be much more profitable for you in the long
run because they are engaged and they're more likely to buy
(22:34):
2nd, 3rd, 4th time from you rather than a group of people
who no longer care for your content. So, yeah,
there are many positives to unsubscribes
because, you know, ultimately you understand who wants to be on your
list. You understand that
unsubscribes will help your deliverability because
(22:56):
we are, in effect, seeing, you
know, we're seeing the positives of
unsubscribes in the sense that, you know, we're not going into
spam, which is a good thing.
And which can have long term repercussions. Oh,
I honestly, it's. You don't want to be in that
(23:18):
pickle. Yeah. It's really, really difficult to come out of the
spam folders. Like, it's, once you're marked as spam,
you're in big trouble. It's. Yeah, that's not necessarily. No.
Yeah, cash monies. Yeah.
Yeah. You don't know. You won't know. You won't know. All you'll
see is, like, a decline in your performance, but you won't know why.
(23:39):
So trust us when we say there are positives
to unsubscribes because, you know, you're keeping,
you only want to keep a list of engaged people, and the quicker you
can unsubscribe someone, the better. Yeah. And I
kind of want to talk a little bit about the list size
because that's the big thing with people, which, it's true.
(24:03):
The more people you have on your email list. And if you're
constantly growing that list, you have more of an
opportunity to make a sale. But
I have been inside so many email accounts that have
10,000, 30,000 people on their list,
but they aren't getting sales,
(24:26):
those people aren't engaging and they're not buying. Whereas I've
been in lists of 600 or 1000 people
and they get at least one sale or two sales from
every email they sent. So the size of
your list is not indicative and does not guarantee
the sales that you will get from that list. Those people
(24:49):
have to be engaged and they, you know, need to,
you know, I guess you want them to want to be on your
list because those people, they're going to buy if they want to be on your
list. Yeah. It's so funny that people get caught up on how big their
list size is and I actually ask a different question to say, you know,
how engaged is your audience? Because.
(25:10):
Exactly. That's what matters. It matters
more than size. Right. So quality
is important over quantity.
Yeah. Well, let's go into
your subscribers preferences because there are so
(25:30):
many, if you like. I mean, of course we want to keep people
engaged and how do we maybe stop them
from getting to a point where they feel like they need to
unsubscribe? Because there's also things that we can do. You know,
say someone unsubscribes because they don't want to get an email from
you every week, you know, but if it works for you to
(25:52):
send an email every week, then there are
things that you can do to, you know, not send them an email every week
and cater to their preferences and then maybe keep them on and
they might buy from you in three months. Let's talk about those
things that we could be doing. Yeah, it's a great subject,
actually, just around understanding subscriber
(26:14):
preferences. So one thing you can do. So say, for
example, you're used to sending a weekly email and you
might find that you're in a situation where you're seeing slightly higher
unsubscribe rates. What you could do is set up an
option for your subscribers to opt out of the
weekly and instead receive a more reduced
(26:36):
frequency from you. So say it's weekly. You can
offer them the chance to hear from you fortnightly or monthly.
And why is this an option for you? Well,
it means you don't lose a subscriber completely, but you give them
choice. And people love choice and people love to
have the opportunity to take ownership
(26:59):
of their preferences. So I've seen a lot of
companies do this where they give people the option
to receive much more reduced
frequency, or they say, would you like to take a break for three
months? Either our option depends on your business
and the kind of services and products you offer, but I think both are
(27:22):
great options to explore. Yeah,
it's fairly easy to set up a manage preferences page.
The only thing that you have to do is, I think
the challenge with that is getting people to actually fill it out and them
knowing that they have that option. So we've kind of talked
about how you could ask people, like,
(27:45):
through your onboarding, through your welcome series. Let me know your
preferences. Let me know how you want to hear from. I mean, you could create
an email that is for tell us your preferences
right now when they're super hot and super engaged, as
people tend to be when they first get onto your list.
But I do find that, you know, there are a lot of businesses out there
(28:07):
that they haven't made a manage preferences page. They may have, you
know, thousands of people on their list already.
In that case, I would send an, I would make the manage preference page
and I would send an email to everyone
asking them to fill it out. You're not going to get everyone to fill
it out, but you will get,
(28:29):
you know, a good amount, enough to possibly save you some
unsubscribes in the future. So. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's a great shout. Yeah, it's a great shout. And
actually, angie, there are people we know that I don't want to call them out
here, but there are some really simple things that people are
doing that are potentially costing them
(28:51):
subscribers. So it could be that they've got multiple
lead magnets running and people have signed up
to many of their lead magnets and they might be receiving
multiple emails on the same day. What could happen is
I unsubscribe from one email and that unsubscribes me from
all emails. So having this set up in
(29:14):
a way that says to me, right, if you want to
unsubscribe, you only will unsubscribe from this type of email going
forwards, or you can unsubscribe from all, but
making it more, a more considered
set of options for subscribers so that they don't
accidentally unsubscribe from everything. The thing that's
(29:37):
happening here is that many coaches, consultants, service providers,
ecommerce business owners don't realize that they can
set this up quite easily themselves. And so therefore
they're losing subscribers by people essentially
unsubscribing from all, because that's the only option they're giving
people. So giving people choice and
(29:59):
managing the subscribe process, the unsubscribe process,
rather, is a great way to try and
maintain healthy subscribe rates, but also
giving people what they want rather than unsubscribing for more than losing them
forever. Yeah. And so in that
sense, you know, instead of losing them, they
(30:21):
self segment themselves. They say, you know, or I
want to. It could be a frequency thing or like you said, it could be
a content thing. Right. You know, if we have a lot of lead magnets or
we have a lot of ways people have come onto our list
and these people do have specific
problems that might not be the same problem as
another person that's on your list. And I think one
(30:44):
thing that we haven't really discussed is segmenting.
But in
that managed preference phrase, if you give them an option to be like, I want
to hear content about X, you
know, they're obviously having problems with that or they need help with
that, whereas another person's like, well, I want to hear content about why. So
(31:06):
when you give them the option, oh, let's, I'm going to go into the y
bracket or I'm going to go into the X bracket, they're actually giving you
this incredible opportunity to really
personalize the next email you send them to speak
directly to their problems and speak
directly to their needs. That's the kind of email marketing that
(31:27):
personalized, segmented email marketing
that really gets good engagement and
sees great numbers. So that's a
really good thing. If you can, if they self segment
themselves and they tell you what they actually want to hear about, you could really
capitalize on that. Yeah, absolutely. And actually,
(31:48):
the flip side of reducing unsubscribes is by
doing this, giving people the content that they're interested
in. And so segmentation allows for that because you're
only giving people the content that they're most likely to want to
hear about. So therefore you're reducing the chances
of an unsubscribe. So, yeah, segmentation
(32:11):
is a wonderful opportunity for you to really
speak to your subscribers specific
problems without having to kind of spray and pray and
send the same content to everyone. Yeah,
absolutely. Because another thing about
unsubscribes to manage them
(32:32):
better is making sure you have good content. I mean,
we talk about this so much that so much of email marketing
is the content that you're sending. Is it relevant?
Why should they care? Does it help them in some
way? If it's not, then, yeah, they're gonna
(32:53):
they're gonna say goodbye, you know, and that's,
um. But we could really take more control of
our own subscribes or even the revenue that we're seeing from emails, if
we really invest in compelling content,
and especially compelling content to different segments of
people, depending on where they are on the buyer's journey, um, and
(33:15):
what they're running into and how you can help them.
Yeah. And the great thing about email marketing is there's no guesswork.
You can see from your previous campaigns or
previous workflows, like, how is your
content performing? You know, what is it that's resonating with your
audience? Yeah. Because we, you know,
(33:37):
we suggest that with any content you're looking at performance,
you know, what kind of results are you getting from your
previous email? Like, what were the click rates? Were people
opening? You know, there are so many indicators as to,
like, how people are engaging with your content.
So when people say to me, I don't know what to write,
(33:59):
you know, I'm not sure what's working, what isn't working. Well, I always say,
show me your last five emails, tell me how they're
performing, because that's such a great indicator of
what's working, what they'll tell you. Your audience will tell you
what's working. Yeah. People vote. It's called a click.
Exactly, exactly. And there's, like I said, there's no
(34:22):
guesswork. You don't have to. I say with other marketing disciplines,
like pr or advertising or maybe like, you
know, billboard type advertising, it's hard to know what's working.
With email. We can see the interaction, we can see the
click. So your content is so, so
important. Yeah. And it's very easy to
(34:44):
take more control of that content just by looking at the numbers.
What got me the highest click rate? What's the product that, like,
I send out to people and people go gaga over, you know?
Yeah. And then just like, what content? What more content
can I make around that, you know? Yeah.
So what about reengagement? How do
(35:06):
you engage people? What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah. Win back campaigns. Right. I think
I always set up for my clients not just a win back campaign,
but then also off of the win back campaign, a sunset flow.
We'll talk about that. Taking unsubscribes into your own hands.
(35:27):
But first, we always try, like one last ditch
effort to get them back on board or to just see that if they're
interested, maybe send
them an offer or just
straight up ask them they're interested in hearing from us.
I do find, you know, people engage with those and then once they
(35:50):
start engaging with the win back campaigns, maybe they buy something, maybe
not. You could possibly get them
to, you know, you're in front of them again and, you know,
you can. Yeah, engage. I actually,
I'm working on one at the moment for a client. Yeah. It's,
it's a reengagement strategy. Then it flows into a
(36:13):
sunset flow. And it's interesting because it's
trying to work out what, like, the definition of
what disengaged is for this particular
business because it varies. Right. For each. Yeah, that's the hardest
part. So we need
to do some look at some insights as to
(36:35):
what disengaged means for this business. But there's some really cool things you can do.
Like, you know, the typical we miss you campaign, which can work really
well, but you've also introduced a time lapsed
offer, which I can't wait for us to test.
That typically, typically works really well when you have some urgency.
So you're giving a small segment of people that are
(36:58):
lapsing an offer and if they don't
respond, then they go into a sunset flow. And we
essentially, you're essentially managing people out of your
list, but giving them so many chances to stay.
So many chances to stay. So there are so many
different tactics you can use, but sunset flows are a really good
(37:20):
way to kind of manage people out, but give them that final chance to say
hello, to say stay. Yeah. And in that
sunset flow, I will. I always have an
email or an option for them to manage their preferences too. Yeah.
Like, I use the managed preferences.
Typically. Typically the sunset flow. I only make like two
(37:42):
emails. I don't, I don't know, two or three I would cap it
at because it's going to get low engagement because you are
sending it to people who are not engaging
intentionally. And I always put, like,
you, you know, what do you want to hear about one last ditch
effort? You could also add, like, either in those
(38:04):
windback or sunset flows. What's new?
Like, what things have you added to your business? What updates do you have?
How are you making their lives easier? If
they've implemented any other ways that people
can work with you or take advantage of your products or
just like make shopping on their site easier. That's other
(38:26):
stuff that I will also try. Um, inside those
flows. Yeah, that's a great shout. That's something that
a lot of people don't do is actually communicate. Because when people
sign up to hear from you, then maybe it was some time
ago. And now they, you know, maybe they've stopped reading. Well, they have
certainly stopped engaging with you. So now's the time to tell them,
(38:48):
you know, here's, you know, what's new with us, but also
it's a good chance to get some feedback, I think, from the
subscriber, you know, like, what's changed for them, why?
You know, we ultimately want to know
what's happening to have changed. You know, what's the
driving reason behind the change in behavior, particularly if they
(39:10):
were highly engaged before. So any
kind of feedback can really help because it could be that there's something going
wrong with the customer journey. It could be that they had a bad experience and
no one knows about it. It could be that they just simply
no longer need your service or product. But
it's dangerous to make assumptions. So feedback at this point is so
(39:33):
useful. That's a very good point. Yeah. But the
thing to be aware of is that, as you said earlier, Angie, is that you
may get low responses at this point because people have already maybe
checked out. But it can be really interesting to see what
people say when they completely surveyed.
It's such useful insight that can feed back into the business.
(39:56):
Yeah. I always see those surveys, at least for
myself, when I go to unsubscribe from a list, you'll
see they ask you, why are you unsubscribing?
I've never actually implemented that on the
unsubscribe, on the back end of an unsubscribe,
but I would implement it into a sunset flow for sure.
(40:19):
Yeah, I think it could be really interesting because
you could personalize that
survey beyond. I'm receiving too many
emails. If we can really understand what's going on, we might be able to go
back and improve our unsubscribe rates
overall. There are feedback loops
(40:41):
to allow you to understand what's going on, particularly for those of you that
are receiving high unsubscribe rates. And
for those that are receiving high unsubscribe rates,
we suggest that you take. That's something you have to prioritize
looking at. Oh, yeah. If there's a problem,
(41:01):
you need to look at that straight away because that will cause you harm.
So, yeah, don't leave that. That's something that must be looked at right
away. Yeah. And then if they go through your
sunset flow and they don't engage with that, they don't click
it, at least in Klaviyo, then
it tags the profile as
(41:24):
unengaged. I mean, you can have it tag whatever you want. And
then I usually take that segment and I just
unsubscribe them myself every
few months or so just to keep the
list clean and healthy because that is the most important
thing. Above all, it can be really hard to do.
(41:47):
I think it's a lot easier for me to do as the email marketer, you
know, not the person who is the business owner.
I see how that could be just like a punch in the,
but again, the less the list, health is so important,
and it is important to clean your list on a
regular basis because a lot of people, they're not going to unsubscribe
(42:09):
themselves. They're just going to, you know, not open your emails and keep
hurting your open rates and click rates and possibly your
deliverability. And so in that, in those
cases, you know, we need to, we need to look out for ourselves. We need
to look out for our list. Yeah, 100%. I think with
the rules tightening, I think every three months is a
(42:31):
good time to check in and look at your
unsubscribes. A lot of the email service providers
give you. You know, they actually help you identify who the
kind of inactives are or those that are lapsing.
And you can choose what to do. You know, we suggested doing a
reengagement flow, a sunset flow, but you
(42:53):
might choose to just unsubscribe them if you, you know, it's your
list. The one thing actually, that I wanted to say
when it comes to losing people, the other side of
it is to ensure you have people coming onto your list. You're always
growing your list because the reality is, yeah, you're going to lose
people through the unsubscribe process, as we mentioned, for the reasons
(43:16):
we've talked about today. But there always
should be people coming onto your list so that it's
continually growing. So as much attention
as you are giving to your unsubscribe process, you should be also looking at
your list growth and bringing new people,
fresh, fresh new people onto your list. I actually read a
(43:39):
stat earlier or last week that said that
every year, which, I mean, this is from, I don't
know who they polled or whatever, but every year, 22% of your list
becomes unengaged, which is such a
big chunk. I believe it because I do
see my clients who aren't really
(44:01):
focusing on list growth.
Yeah, their email marketing is
not doing horribly, but it's definitely not progressing
and growing. So
I believe that for sure that you will always,
just as we will always have people unsubscribing we're going to have a big chunk
(44:23):
of people who are becoming unengaged, and we need
to replenish that list knowing that that is the natural
cycle of an email marketing list. We have to keep feeding the
wheel because people are going to leave.
Yeah. It's just the way of the world. It's just one of those things
that happens in email marketing. We have to accept it. But at the same time,
(44:45):
remember, if someone has, I think, of a clothing
brand that I have recently unsubscribed from, I
know probably later on in the year when I'm looking for a new
dress, I will resubscribe. Yes. So
don't think it's forever. I don't think it's like a breakup that's
permanent. It could be actually that that person just needs a break for
(45:07):
now and they'll come back to you. If they really like
your stuff and they
enjoyed working with you or purchasing your products
or services, they'll be back. It's not just because they
unsubscribe. Yeah. It doesn't mean they hate you. It doesn't mean
they never want to see you again. It just means not right now. Yeah.
(45:29):
That's really. That's all it means. Not right now.
Yeah. You're absolutely right. I do that all the time. I will unsubscribe. Like I
said, I buy a lot of gifts, you know, at Christmas time, after Christmas, you
see a lot of unsubscribes because that's exactly what people are doing. They're like,
well, I know I'm probably not going to buy this again, at least maybe until
November or October, whatever.
(45:51):
And they will unsubscribe scribe themselves just to clean up their
inboxes. And kudos to them, you know, because if they're not going to for
us throughout the year, then okay, that's fine. Yeah. It's a two
way thing. They no longer want to receive content that is not
useful. And you, you
are left with a clean and healthy list of people that only want to hear
(46:14):
from you and read your content. So it's a win
win. It is a win win. I
think we about covered everything with unsubscribes. Is
there, do you have any last thoughts about
unsubscribes or what I hope people take
away from this? Yeah, I think the takeaway that I'd like
(46:35):
to make sure that people are left with is
just the mindset around unsubscribes. And hopefully we've
shared some tips and advice today
on actually it's not a bad thing. It's just not
right now. And, you know, there are positives
to unsubscribes. As long as you're
(46:58):
monitoring your numbers and making sure you're doing the things we talked about
today, I think you'll be in a good position. So, yeah,
we don't want you to feel like
unsubscribes are a bad thing. You know, as we
said, there are many positives. It's just about, you know, it's kind of
reclaiming the power over your list, isn't it? Yeah, it's owning
(47:21):
your list. It is. And, like,
what happens because of that is a healthier
list of engaged people. So better inbox placement
or just making sure you're not put into spam and hopefully
attracting more people who are engaged and want to be, you
know, receiving your content. So honestly, at the end
(47:43):
of the day, like, unsubscribes are a very good thing.
It's a very positive thing for your list. So hopefully
we can kind of flip that switch on the perspective for
you and you can welcome unsubscribes with open arms
because, you know, it's. It's actually a good thing for you. Yeah.
Yeah. So I guess we'll round
(48:07):
it out. I always like to round it out with
client wins or maybe weird stuff we're seeing in the
inbox or what we're working on this week.
What have you got for us this week, Clara? Yeah, I'm
actually working on a really cool customer journey, building out
some flows for a client and
(48:29):
it's really exciting because. And working through
the onboarding experience and, yeah, there's some
really interesting things we want to try. We want to actually do
a summary email where we bring in multiple
updates into one weekly email. So
(48:50):
a little bit technical, but something really exciting for the client.
So, yeah, I'm looking forward to trying that one. How about you?
You'll have to tell us how it goes, what type of engagement you see from
it, so we can possibly implement that.
I've honestly, I have a client who is
launching. She does two launches a year for
(49:12):
a program and we're
launching on Saturday. We have all of the emails set up for it,
everything set up in the back end. But I'm really, really
excited for this client because they, like six months
ago started a podcast. This podcast has
just been going bananas for this client and
(49:35):
because of that, their list is growing literally
by the hundreds each week. So we want to talk about
growing a list and the importance of growing the list. Well,
because of this new growth in the
list, you know, this person would, would
regularly see maybe 30 sign ups per cycle
(49:57):
and she has a waitlist of
like 900 right now. And
we can only cap the program to like, I think 80.
And now we're just kind of really nervous that we're
thinking about the emails that we're good. The emails that we're going to send that
are like, it's sold out. Sorry. Like, how do you, how do
(50:19):
you work with us? So I think, like, just the
opportunity that, you know, getting people
getting into your sphere and signing up onto your email list and
it has really paid off for this client.
So keep that in mind. You know,
it's amazing for your client. Yeah. It shows the power of an email list and
(50:41):
actually launching to an email list and being
essentially over subscribed is amazing. Yeah. So
congrats to your client. Oh, yeah, she did. I didn't do
anything, but. Sure you did.
Yes. I've been helping, obviously with all of the launch and everything with
that, but I just think, yeah, I just,
(51:02):
I know everybody wants to grow their list, but like
you said, it's hard and you got to put yourself out there. You got to
be doing something to get more eyes on you and your brand
and people becoming aware of you. But if you can put that energy and
effort or even money towards it, man, the repercussions of that,
the opportunities, the growth you can see from that is
(51:25):
just beyond. I'm witnessing it with my own eyes.
It's very inspiring. It's huge email list.
Growth is so important, even for the biggest companies that
think they have enough people on their lists. There's always
attrition, there's always people unsubscribing. As we've talked about today,
you need to make sure you've always got new people coming in. So, yeah,
(51:48):
the power of an email list is huge. It is huge.
Huge. And an engaged list. I will say that I think one
thing that's very important about this growth that this client has
seen, it's coming from a podcast that is
attracting their ideal customer, attracting their ideal
audience. So I think that's also very important
(52:09):
is these people are also, you know, just a good
match. For what? For their services. Because we've talked about, you
could have a huge list, but if they're not
ideal customers or if they're not engaging, you
know, so it is important when you're growing your list. We don't. We could do
a whole episode on this to just make sure you are attracting people who
(52:31):
are the right fit for your products and services? Oh,
absolutely. It's so important. And I think we should do a podcast
on this topic because it's so big. Yeah, maybe we'll. It's so big.
Maybe that'll be our next one. I don't know. You can always let us know.
Email us. Let us know. Yeah. Drop us a note and let us know the
subjects you want to hear about from us. We'd be happy to dedicate a
(52:54):
podcast to it. We're not short on ideas, but we would rather
give you what you want to hear and what's going to help you with your
business right now, so. Exactly. All
right, thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Make sure you leave us a review.
Yeah. And we'll see you the next time. We'll
see you on the next pod. Thank you.
(53:18):
Bye.
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