Stop Playing for Exposure: Build a Career That Pays With Indie Band Coach

Still playing for free? It might be time for a mindset - and systems - upgrade. I sat down with Leonard Patterson—aka The Indie Band Coach—to talk about what it actually takes to get paid for your music. From building a pitch-ready brand to using QR codes, gig cards, and automations, this is your roadmap to stop working for exposure and start building a sustainable career.

📍Mentioned Resource: Bars to Ballrooms Toolkit: https://mailchi.mp/indiebandcoach/bars-to-ballrooms

Follow Leonard here: https://www.instagram.com/indiebandcoach

Check our Leonard’s band here: https://www.livingproofmusic.com/

👉 Want to make practicing easier? Grab our FREE warm up track here: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/free-warm-up-track

👉 Want to know exactly what your voice needs to improve? Get a vocal evaluation from our professional coaches here: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/vocal-evaluation

👉 Book a 1:1 session with Coach Lara: https://lessons.voxtapestudios.com/trial-lesson

🔔 Subscribe & follow for new episodes every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
cause they're probably looking at other vans too
and if you make it easy for them
yeah yeah
they're gonna be more likely to hire you and not them
yes and the way I look at the
the websites or having a website
first of all this is my type
yep that's yours hahaha please

(00:21):
get a website I know you can get by without one
I know you can you know
there's all kinds of platforms just get a website
it's your world you can control the narrative
you can control all the stuff
your void of distractions and competitors
get a website

(00:45):
hey Vox Star and welcome to from singer to artist
I'm Lara Chapman award winning singer and songwriter
turned viral vocal coach and the host of this show
at VoxTape Studios
we help singers from all over the world
level up their voices
by teaching them the three fundamental skills
all singers need technique
awareness and artistry whether you're looking to go pro

(01:06):
or just develop your voice for fun
my team and I are here to help
check the link in the description
to book your first session
or grab some of our other resources
Alrighty are you ready
let's get started
if you are somebody who is playing gigs
and you would like to figure out how to level up
and maybe also get paid what you're worth
and kind of
get out of that starving musician mentality

(01:29):
today's episode is for you
my friend
because I have a very special guest with me here
welcome Leonard Patterson
thank you Lara
thank Lara
thank you for having me here you go
anytime any anytime
indie band coach yes
I well
well honestly
so we met hold on
when did we meet this was probably 22

(01:51):
in 2022 I think so
I think it was 2022 January
like beginning of the year 2022
but it wasn't at all about how to
you know level up your gigs and
you know
go from playing bars that are not paying you at all to
you know wedding
and corporate events that are actually worth paying

(02:11):
playing and because you get paid for it
yeah um
it was not about that at all
it was actually about helping me build my business
and my awareness my brand
and yes all of that
awesome brand it is yes
it was a great time like we were
I think I was still living in California

(02:32):
Nashville I was in Nashville
I remember you being in Nashville
but I had just moved actually OK
yeah yes
we had moved to Nashville
but yeah we
we had a chance to work together
I was working with the artist collective now
artistpreneur yeah
and yeah we took
you know artists and coaches

(02:52):
and help them you know
just realize what they had in terms of their
their structure their business
their their skills
and help build a program and brand around that
which you already had such a great product going
and it was just a joy to get to work with you

(03:12):
and yeah just to um
really just try to keep up honestly
I remember
I think we were you know
I think I was the first four weeks or second four weeks
I forget but we were working together
and we were working on content
and we you know
you obviously have a great social presence
and we were dialing that in

(03:33):
and I remember talking about like
a couple of automations or something
I'm like but
you know don't worry about that right now
cause what we need to focus on
you're like okay
okay
got to the next call the next week
and you're like well
I built this thing and I'm like
Laura hahaha
he's like what
you know when I get excited about something

(03:53):
I like to just do it you know
there's no time like today
and right now I love it
no it was awesome
I had so much fun working with you
we always were laughing but it was also productive
right it wasn't just like having a good time
it was also like learning and doing things
and that together with having a good time is just nice
it's a great combo yes

(04:13):
well and now with what you're doing now
it's totally different but not totally different
because you were mostly doing the social media
and the branding stuff with me
and the automations in form of like
social media automations and things like that
and uh
now with you know
your indie band coach stuff
you have a heavy focus on social media and brand

(04:36):
because that's what's gonna help you set
apart from the bar gigs
but before we get into all of that
yeah yeah
haha yes
which is great stuff before we get into all of that
uh you are in a band yourself
yes you started that band many years ago
then life went in a different direction
and then you came back to it
so tell us a little bit more about your story

(04:57):
cause you've did so you've done so much in your life
yes thank you
yes it has been
it has been a journey
yes the band that my wife and I started 22+ years ago
wow you're only like 25
what are you talking about
I know which is crazy
how is that toddler on stage singing
but

(05:18):
you know yeah
we started 2001 and when we started off
we were an all original band
uh huh uh
we were doing you know
showcases where there'd be four or five bands
you know 30
45 minute sets and
you know it was great
and then you know
the folks in the band were like hey
you know we'd love to you know maybe get paid and yeah

(05:41):
hahaha like
okay
so kind of like you
you kind of take stuff and you just start doing
and I became a booking agent
like I just started
you know happenstance
just going out looking at things
and the amount of information
that's available online now

(06:01):
is far beyond anything that was available then
uh huh so it was literally like well
I guess I'm gonna go to a club and say
here's our band
here's the kind of music and go from there
uh huh
so a lot of hit and miss with with that but but yeah
we became a you know

(06:23):
a band that had originals that played covers
and we started getting paid
you know okay
I can still
remember the very first gig that we got paid
we all walked out of there with $41
wow a piece and girl you couldn't have told us that
oh yeah

(06:43):
where we go are we going to steak and shake
oh yeah we're going yes yeah
I know I got the fries I got you anyway
so falling on a budget oh yeah
I can't tell nothing so but yeah
flash forward you know
we were playing at this bar we had only been you know
quote unquote playing covers for a little while

(07:04):
I'm gonna say this was like 2000 3
and it just so happened that um
one of the writers from Nuevo
was at this restaurant that we were playing in
mind you we're an eight piece band
stuffed in this little corner of this restaurant
but we didn't care we were like
we're playing music yeah
and but we were still like hey

(07:27):
we're here this is an avenue for us to play originals
and all this kind of stuff
well turns out he wrote an article about us and it was
his name was Barfly Wayne Birch
he used to do the cartoons for Nuevo back in the day
but he did this cartoon about us
and it came out and it said
I just saw the best cover band in indie

(07:48):
wow that's what you would have thought
we thought we were totally still in this
we're only doing these covers
so that we can make money to pay for our CD
kind of thing uh huh
so the very first Needric reaction was
how dare he calls a cover band

(08:09):
oh
okay hurt your ego a little bit it did
and it didn't take long
just kind of looking at the landscape
and all that stuff
it didn't take long before I realized like Leonard
you need to get over yourself
we need to get over ourselves
we're focusing on the wrong word
someone just called us the best

(08:29):
hmm uh huh
totally focused on the wrong word
mm hmm so definitely had to check our ego at the door
and that was such a great like
period of time for us because we were
we were finding ourselves
and because of that article
we started to get a couple more leads
and yeah you know
within the next year

(08:49):
we were playing at another event that is no longer here
but it's called Ribfest and we opened up for Morris Day
wow OK
yeah like Center Stage
it was crazy but really fun times
really
a lot of learning experiences and things like that
and yeah my wife and I were in the band for 12 years

(09:14):
so like until 2,013
and we decided to go do her solo project
which was awesome um
and then after that
after we were out of the band for a few years
we decided to move to California
hmm yeah
people like
you guys going out there for music and doing stuff
and we're like not really

(09:37):
but
you know we were kind of a footloose and fancy free
so to speak but yeah
we moved out to Southern California
and we were out there for five years
uh huh and a lot of stuff happened out there
um
diagnosed with cancer um
had a son uh

(09:57):
which is great um
but really had a chance to really focus on just our
ourselves as people as a family and all of that
and yeah we ended up yeah
moving back this way
to take care of family and things like that
but I was off stage
out of the band for nine years and when we left

(10:20):
we sold the band and the brand and all the stuff
the logo like all like all the stuff like we sold it
and yeah nine years later
I never would have imagined that it was still going
not like there's no way it's still gonna be going
but like yeah I wasn't thinking like of course yeah
oh this will still be going
nor was I thinking I would ever be back like yeah

(10:44):
yeah we came back in 2020 2022 end of 2022
and it just so happened
that one of the members of the band
was leaving
he was playing percussion and you know
doing some songs or singing some songs and yeah
ended up back home in Indiana and back home on stage

(11:06):
yeah so came home home yeah
and yeah it's been a very
very cool few years just kind of getting back into the
the groove of things
and sing fans and friends and family from
you know years ago
it's been an awesome experience
selling a band
you know like
that is not ever something

(11:27):
that would have crossed my mind
that that's a thing that you can sell your band
but when you have a brand behind your band
you can yes
that that was probably the difference and yes
so Jessica and I were the the lead vocalists yeah

(11:47):
and so just
just from the fact that we were the one singing song
we were the face of the band
and so it was a very difficult transition in terms of
you know at the time speaking of private events
at the time that we left I think we had on the books
like
anywhere from like 12 to 18 months into the future

(12:09):
we had like 32 contracts oh wow
that were signed yeah
most of them with me as the yeah
the lead and the manager and all the stuff
and so it was a very interesting dynamic
and we took some time and talked to our booking agency
Blonde Entertainment shout out to Lisa and Julian

(12:31):
but that and that's who we sold it to actually
but okay we
we talked about it and we took some time
and we basically hired our replacements
uh huh on the DL like we didn't post anything
we didn't let anybody know anything but we hired them
um we brought them over to our house in the basement
we made videos um

(12:52):
and we were speaking directly to the
the 32 contracted folks were like hey
we want you guys to introduce
we want to introduce you guys to somebody
and so we had the singers
we had them like you know
basically
made a little highlight reel to introduce them
and we made these videos
and then we sent out emails to everyone

(13:13):
because what we didn't want to happen
was for someone to say hey
I've already given you $1,000 what's going on here
so we want to make sure everyone heard it from us first
we didn't post anything didn't say anything
until we heard back from every single person
mm hmm
so that they would have the confidence and comfort
and knowing that we've taken care of them yes

(13:35):
the band is not breaking up the yeah
the quality of the band is
you know it's not gonna diminish
it's gonna be different people
uh huh um
but I think the out of 32 contracts
I think we lost one
and that was because they changed their date
and we couldn't oh okay
match it but yeah
so other than that

(13:56):
everyone was on board and I've spoken to many of them
yeah even since then
and they're so thankful for the process and yeah yeah
yeah all of that stuff
so but yeah
it was definitely a brand cause that's a lot of money
yeah on the table
which was one of the reasons that we decided

(14:17):
to at least consider
cause we didn't want to disappoint a bunch of people
or have to find a bunch of different bands and
um yeah
we just wanted to be able to keep the
keep the brand yeah
and you had 12 years of name recognition yeah
that was there so
and that matters the name matters

(14:37):
and um
I don't know if you at all
like during the process of like leaving the band and
you know all these couples and whoever
like these 32 contracts were
they were like oh yeah
no problem
like if your ego was ever like a little hurt was like
you know when I'm being replaced
you should at least be a little bit sad please hahaha

(14:58):
um
what was Will Ferrell say
it was a roller coaster of emotion
um yeah
it was part of it was like so relieved
yes of course that
you know you guys are good
but then it was like he said cool
a little bit too quick what
yeah yeah
exactly hahaha
I want you to be at least a little sad right
like hahaha
just shed one tear and then we can get to business

(15:20):
come on yeah
yeah yeah
no it's a yeah
like I said a lot of the
the people that we worked with and like for a wedding
for example like
a lot of times we're working with people for like
a year mm hmm
cause they're planning that far out
and so yeah
there were a few of those contracts
those events that you know

(15:42):
Jessica went ahead and played and then like
for probably five or six of them over the course of
like you know
the within the six months or so that we were
had made the announcement
like I said and I'm going to be there too
so like the folks were there
but I'm also going to be there
so there was that little time frame that I'm like
you know for you guys I know we are literally

(16:04):
you know 13 months into this and it'd be like yeah
really kind of crappy to like back out now so yeah
for for a few of those I was like
don't worry I'm still gonna be there yeah
that kind of thing so yeah
but it it worked out and yeah
it was definitely something that took a lot of
maintenance but you know
it was something like I said

(16:25):
with so many years of brand recognition
it was just
I think the right thing to the right thing to do
and is it still the same name now
like whatever 20 years later
yes still still living proof yeah
yes living proof music.com um
and yeah our when we when we were leaving

(16:45):
there was some talk in the band about and it
this part was flattering but I was like
please don't do it but they're like
oh man if you guys are leaving
we should change the name of the band cause yeah
it's not leaving proof yeah
I'm like
thank you that that that's flattering
I appreciate that
but please don't change the name for for

(17:06):
for your sake yeah
for the business sake don't don't change the name yeah
like again it's the recognition yeah
right and you know just the fact that you know
just think about SEO on you know
Google and all that stuff you've got all of this
you know seasoned yeah
website
you're starting from scratch again if you change it
yeah and it's like yeah
that's exactly it's like

(17:27):
if you change the name it won't matter
cause then you'll have to have all these posted notes
oh this was living proof
and yeah yeah yeah
don't bother right yeah
honestly yeah
I think it's and
you know now that we've had different people
and subs and stuff like that
and changed members just looking back on it
I definitely think it's easier to change people

(17:50):
than it is to change names hmm
uh huh uh huh
I can see that I can see that not easy
but easier easier yes
fair fair
so now you're back here back in the band
back to performing you're doing vocals on the band
like any anything else
like you're doing MC stuff as well
yes so for events

(18:10):
I do MC and kind of help you know
kind of like be the band's version of like The Day of
uh huh
so I work with whoever the coordinators are if they
if they have one and things like that
but yes there are three vocalist myself
west and Ali and I think it'll be
yes I'll be seeing Ali with Ali haha

(18:32):
um but
but yeah so the three of us do
you know most of the songs
but then our saxophone player um
you know sings a song
our drummer who's been around quite a bit
he's a great musician but he sings a couple of songs
and our keyboard player sings too
so we have six people wow

(18:52):
that can sing you know
like how many other people are
so yeah we actually have an eight piece band yeah
so six of us uh sing but uh yeah
and I we were
I was doing like percussion cause that's what you know
the person I replaced
I had a percussion rig and some stuff
which sounded amazing um
but this being my second time around

(19:13):
I call it the you know the second era of this
I'm like okay
I I'm if there's
I'm only gonna take one trip to load in
if it's nothing I can't fit on one yeah
trip I'm
I'm not doing it so percussion
so yeah percussion
you know I have some hand percussion yeah

(19:34):
I've even kind of widdle that down um
but yeah
I do that and then I keep hitting this microphone
hahaha
but I do that and then I'm kind of also the quarterback
um I have a talk back mic okay
and I call all the songs throughout the night
hmm so
keeping the vibe yeah

(19:54):
so kind of reading the room yeah
and you know I'll have on my mic stand I have just a
a little piece of paper that's got our entire
like working song
list of stuff that we're able to go through
and so just kind of reading
the crowd through the night and
that's a skill too
and I think that makes you very valuable

(20:16):
um like when you are doing these higher paid gigs
you
if I'm hiring you as like a corporate girly or whatever
it's like I want you to entertain my people
so you have to be able to
to read the room so let's talk about uh
where
well first how you got into coaching

(20:37):
because now you're not just doing it yourself anymore
but you're helping other people build a band like that
so how did that come into play
that actually came into play from being a booking agent
hmm and I had only
you know when we first started out
I was a booking agent for just my band

(20:57):
and so that's that's what I was uh
doing
and then a few years into it is when we connected with
uh Blond Entertainment
um
25 years here in the market and
you know just awesome uh
organization Lisa Saw
has been doing
a lot of great stuff for a lot of great musicians
but once we became a part of Blonde Entertainment

(21:22):
then there's an opportunity there for me to help out
cause there's a lot of and again
this is pre covid yeah
so there's a lot of opportunity for
you know someone like me who was doing that role
to then do that for Blind Entertainment
so I got a chance to not only book for me
but then book for dozens of other bands around town

(21:46):
and so over the course of several years
I realized that as I was booking
and as I was helping get bands booked for shows
I was hearing a lot of the same questions hmm
I was getting a lot of the same but why didn't I get
you know booked for this or yeah
why didn't get you know

(22:07):
and so I would reach out to to people and I'd say hey
I've got this opportunity for this event
or even if it's a club or something like that
and my general role was basically
let me give this client two or three options
unless they ask for someone specific yeah
but let me give them two or three options you know

(22:29):
within around you know
the same price range and then kind of see what their
their vibe is and then as I was doing that
I realized that there were a lot of bands
that I would have to message him back and be like hey
I'm probably not gonna submit you for this one
mm hmm

(22:49):
here's a couple things that you need to do
so that I can for the next time okay
because I can't put you on this list
mm hmm
with my name behind it and you wouldn't want me to hmm
with you know because they're gonna look at this band
and their website that's professional and has events

(23:10):
and here's how we here's what we offer yeah
this other band and their
you know video header of them with all these shows
and then your band with your URL to your band
that's great but points to your Facebook page
hmm I
you know with not good photos or not good yeah

(23:31):
branding stuff like that
and so the brand just isn't there
right exactly yeah
and so just time after time realizing that oh
you know this you know
band leader so yeah
this band leader that would come to me and say hey
I've got a question for you
can we have a coffee I take your coffee
I had a lot of coffees and lunches yeah

(23:53):
and things with you know
band friends that you know
I'd love to help and all that stuff
and I realized like oh
maybe the questions that they're asking aren't
just for them maybe
maybe there's more than these seven folks yeah
I'm talking to so I just started

(24:13):
I didn't have a plan I literally just was like huh okay
let me you know
when they say
when you're starting up a business on social
it's like hey
try to find something that fits you
but also that you can get all the handles for
mm hmm so I start looking around like what is
I'm kind of I'm kind of coaching
I was like I'll meet booking agent

(24:33):
I'll meet booking agent but yeah
indie band coach yeah
um was one of the top names
and it was like the first one that had all of the
available stuff yeah
and so yeah I just started posting
tips and things that I was already talking about
and sharing and started getting some good feedback

(24:55):
and I'm like oh
I'll just
I'll just keep sharing stuff that I'm learning
not just from working with bands
but also what I'm doing with my band
yeah so yeah
that's kind of how it started with
with indie band coach and you know
that whole thing LED me to connect with the artist
collective and yeah um

(25:16):
cause we were doing very similar things
my high end product was events and things like that
where there's a coaching programs
but it was such a such a good fit and yeah
I was happy to get a chance to you know
really work with Evan and
and Vinny and Willie and yeah
that just to
get a chance to look at it from a different angle

(25:37):
but yeah yeah
yeah
and now you're back into the indie coach
like on your own
and no more with the Artist Collective
or what are Artist Entrepreneur
they're called now yeah
Artist Entrepreneur
yes and I still you know do clinics for okay
cool sometimes so I'll yeah
just like once a month actually for last year
like I'll hop in and and do a clinic for yeah

(26:01):
for some of the the coaching clients and stuff
like that so I'm still in touch
we still collaborate on things like that

(28:52):
making it your your day job kind of thing is being
I guess open to
what are some different ways that I can make
money and generate income with this
thing that I love to do yeah
and so private events weddings
those kinds of things are those higher end events that

(29:15):
you know allow you to go and you know
do one show for the you know
for the price of three or four club shows at least
but yeah yeah yeah
I was being I was being concerned right yeah
and so if you don't want to play a lot
or if you've got family or you want to spend more time

(29:38):
writing
and doing the other musical things that fill you up
exactly
being ready and willing
and able to do private events in some way
shape or form is you know
should be you know
at least a consideration I would think
yeah because at the end of the day
just because you're doing weddings and corporate events

(29:59):
and all that
doesn't mean you can't also do your own stuff
it's like you're doing this
so that you can then reinvest
that into your own original music
or whatever it is that you're doing
and the time thing as well
I like how you how you set that you know
if you have family or you you know
you just don't wanna play six days a week
but rather you know

(30:20):
one or two a month and
and still make the same amount of money
then that's definitely a great avenue
so okay
I am in an experience band I have played 50 gigs okay
we have a system down cool
but I've only played bars
restaurants clubs that kind of stuff

(30:41):
maybe a festival maybe I played a music festival
but what do I need to be considered
for these higher paying gigs
cause you said you have like as a booking agent
you didn't really let like
you didn't really submit some people
like some bands because they were just not quite there
so what do I need tell me

(31:02):
well one of the things is we talk
we've talked this whole time about band and brand yeah
so you want to be able to present yourself as a brand
as a as a business
mm hmm um
and you wanna be able to have coordinators um

(31:24):
vendors talent buyers agents
you want them to be able to land on
your online presence
whether it's social media or your website
whatever
and have this little conversation in their head of
this is a professional yeah
and whatever that means for you and your

(31:45):
your band like you want that conversation happening
and I like to say sometimes like hey
looking at your socials looking at your website
are you a 5,000 dollar band or 500 dollar band
mm hmm if I've got a budget of $5,000
and I'm gonna be looking for the

(32:05):
the best entertainment to entertain my employees
or my clients for my holiday party
or whatever is in their family
would I land on your site
and have that professional conversation
go off yeah
and a lot of times I'll ask
a lot of people I'm working with
I'll say let's go to your site now

(32:26):
and be just totally objective
put yourself in the shoes of a client
ask yourself this question would you hire you
oh it's so hard for a lot of people
I think to stay objective cause it's like
it's this my baby or whatever right um
but taking yourself out of your own shoes
and putting yourself in the

(32:48):
the shoes of the client is one of the first
and best ways to kind of retool
what you've got going on so yeah
one of the things you know
I would say is
just really looking at the kind of video
and pictures and things that you are sharing online and

(33:10):
you know not and here's the thing
it's not like oh my goodness
don't post that picture or video of you guys in the bar
yeah that's not what I'm saying but it's more about the
quality of it the the aesthetics you know
weddings especially are such a such a visual yes

(33:30):
such a visual business
you think about the
the florists and the photographers and all that stuff
like all that stuff is pristine
like you want your product to be in that same vein
if that's what you're going for yeah um
so yeah just being attentive of your aesthetics

(33:51):
but also your messaging
and one of the really easy layups
that a lot of people miss is just making it crazy
stupid easy for people to connect and contact you hmm
make sure that your contact info is on social media

(34:11):
if that's where they find you um
if they land on your website
make sure first of all
that you're talking directly to that person
or at least that there's a tab
or section somewhere on your website that
if I go to Vox Tape Studios
or Vox Tape Band yeah yeah
if I go to Vox Tape Band

(34:32):
and you'd be surprised at how many times I've heard
just talking to someone at a club or at an event
or at a a restaurant or something hey
do you guys play weddings
do you guys play events
those are the kind of questions that they're having
when they land on your site yeah
really simple like have a tab that says events

(34:55):
yeah or weddings or something
so that that question's immediately answered
yeah'cause if you know
you never know how many seconds you have
for that to happen so
cause they're probably looking at other bands too
and if you make it easy for them
uh huh yeah yeah
they're gonna be more likely to hire you and not them

(35:15):
yes and the way I look at the
the websites or having a website first of all
this is my type yep
that's yours hahaha please
get a website
I know you can get by without one I know you can
you know there's all kinds of platforms
just get a website it's your world

(35:37):
you can control the narrative
you can control all the stuff
your void of distractions and competitors
get a website
OK perfect
get a website yes
and it's so easy with like
square space and Wix and whatever's out there
it's so easy to build a website
there's AI tools out there yeah
haha they're like
hey I want a website that's done this

(35:57):
and it's like
yeah but with your website
then have a space on there
that you are specifically talking to them
and think about the other questions they'll ask
you know how long do you play
what type of music or you know
song list that kind of thing
because the way it's worked with our band

(36:20):
and I've seen it work with many others
is that people are gonna find you online first
and then they will
you know end up on your website in some kind of way
and that will either be where they actually contact you
or they will look at what you've got there

(36:42):
and then decide that yes
this checks all my boxes
now I'm going to go see them live hmm
so you want your website to kind of
continue the conversation
in some way shape or form
you don't want it to stop the conversation
so okay yeah
huh okay
so I'm like just thinking like me as the client
I hired like when I got married

(37:04):
I hired um
a duo to
to sing and play husband and a wife just like you
hahaha
but not the full band but like just
you know just a duo and um
they were a recommendation from like
a recommended vendors list from the venue gotcha
and it never even crossed

(37:24):
my mind to go watch them perform live somewhere
before I hired them because I naively
is that a word um
I was trusting the the venue right
I was like oh
well if they're on the recommended vendor list
then you know
they have to be good so I saw a video
I'm like yeah cool
awesome you're hired

(37:45):
yes
and that happens a lot too
and that is you know
one of the it's kind of like
thinking about those
emails that I would send off to clients
that would have some bands listed
and some others that weren't
for them to be on that recommended vendors list
that definitely speaks volumes
because

(38:05):
that vendor wouldn't have had them on their list
if they wouldn't have had videos
or professional website yes
and that kind of stuff so yeah
that that is definitely
one of the other benefits of that is not only just the
you know direct client inquiries
but then you're now looking at other vendors

(38:26):
and other partners and other things like
that were like oh yeah
and you know
if you get the chance to work with people
and obviously you're professional and nice and you're
you know
working as a team and all of that stuff then yeah
you definitely are able to continue those relationships
and you'll get calls
just because you were great to work with

(38:48):
obviously you can deliver yeah
yeah but they're great to work with
you know that you're making other people's lives easier
not harder haha
yes that kind of stuff yeah
and in order to get on these recommended vendors list
you have to
to do that and you have to have the experience
that's not where you start right
like you don't you don't go from playing a club

(39:09):
to knocking on a venue's door
and be like hey
can I be on your recommend vendors list
when they have zero proof of what you do
right yes
the yeah that's that's a few steps down the line yeah
but every step that you take to get there
is really important you're building
you know
just like when you're building your band and you know

(39:30):
you're building your
your brand and building this business
each of those each of those steps is very important
because you want to you know
develop that that reputation that yeah
hey we're we're great to work with
we will you know
do whatever we can to you know
make this event a success
and then I like to also say that

(39:52):
whoever either recommended us
recommended us or hired us
I like to say like our job is to make them the star
mm hmm of the show
and especially like
with corporate events and things like that
cause you'll have a
either someone whose job it is
or a lot of times it's someone whose job it's not

(40:13):
that just got put on them yeah
I need you to you know
put together our holiday party
or I need you to be the one to get the yeah
entertainment you know
it's like okay
and so I've talked to a lot of folks that are like
I yeah
I'm I just looked on the web
sorry guys
are you can you guys do X
y Z like yeah

(40:33):
yeah yeah
and then after the show was like
you guys made me look so good
thank you we got you
we got you yeah
I love that yeah um
but yeah that kind of
you know just being a piece of that bigger puzzle
mm hmm cause it takes a lot of people
and depending on the event

(40:54):
a lot of different vendors to have
if you've ever planned a wedding
whoo hoo hahaha
there's a lot that goes on
and our venue was awesome
they did everything they did the
like they were the venue
the cater the flowers
everything and it like
I had minimal organization to do yeah

(41:14):
or like yeah
whatever planning yeah
but it was still like this is a lot
now at that point I didn't have a green card yet
so I couldn't work so I had the time to do it
you know
but it's still like oh my God
there's a lot that goes that goes into it
and so be a team player like you said before
make people look good
and then they want to work with you again
and again and again and then

(41:36):
your whole book starts growing and growing and growing
and before you know it
you don't have to do a lot of promotion anymore
because they find you
yes it's
it was a very it's a very interesting time frame
this is probably
just to give you a frame of reference for
I mean like I mentioned
we're 22 years old but it was probably year 6 or 7

(42:01):
mm hmm
where the balance started to shift just a little bit
it wasn't like okay immediate
but I started to notice that
I was maybe getting a few more inquiries
than
you know inquiries I had to initiate
hmm uh huh

(42:21):
I was starting to get a few more calls and
you know
forms filled out on our website and started to realize
like oh
this is the third person that's wanted to stay
we're already booked like
that hasn't happened a lot before
yeah but that started to slowly happen
and then you know
the next three or four years after that

(42:43):
it was like
there were several dates during the course of
a year that we had three or four inquiries for
and wow that kind of stuff
so we were at the peak pre covid
at our peak we were doing 125 ish shows
that's like every third day
it's yeah

(43:04):
it's a lot uh
we had several like column to first
we had several weekends where we'd have a
a Friday show and then on Saturday
we'd have something in the afternoon and the evening
yeah yeah yeah
yeah kind of thing or
you know a Friday
Saturday Sunday kind of thing
especially in the summer but yeah
we got to the point where we were busy enough to

(43:25):
where we had to you know
if we had people in the band that had kids
that were doing like
spring break and they were going to be off
mm hmm like oh
we're all taking it off yeah
and we're not doing this yeah thing
so we we had like a couple weekends
like full weekends off and then
a few weekend nights here and there

(43:47):
throughout the year but we were happy
we were yeah
you know just
just going for it and stuff
and even during that time
we released two full length CDs
so okay
we did keep like that focus
and that was my whole kind of foray into music
pre band anyway was like songwriting

(44:07):
mm hmm and so um
I joked about how when you know
the band started to get busy
I'm like oh my gosh
you know
band leader Leonard has killed old songwriter Leonard
like oh no yeah
but band leader Leonard was so fun
he was making money he was cool yeah
he was making money there you go

(44:27):
yeah
songwriter Leonard was like okay
but yeah but yeah
that that period of time was really cool
just to kind of see how the
the fruits of our labor
and just the experience had started to pay off
and we were getting more
inquiries for events and festivals
and things like that
and got a chance to do some really cool

(44:49):
events and things over there
so yeah it's been fun
you know it's a lot when you're
when you're this busy
and you're playing big events where you're playing two
three four hours
I don't know how long those gigs are
but pretty long I would assume yeah
some of them our max is like three hours straight okay
straight no break yeah
now we we

(45:11):
we do take breaks okay
we do we will take like a 15 minute break yeah
typically here um
if we do a three hour show
but yeah any
you know two hours
two and a half hours we'll
we'll do that straight yeah
um just for the most part just to kind of keep the
the vibe going and yeah yeah
like that
but once again there's

(45:32):
you know there's three of us splitting vocals
that's what I was just gonna say
right like cause singer brain over here right
I'm like that is a that is a lot of singing
but if you can split it
that's that's definitely helpful
as far as like vocal stamina and vocal health
and all of that stuff goes
you were just sharing a crazy story with me

(45:52):
where you recently played in a bar
how was how was that experience well
if it was just a bar it would have been fine
so had someone reach out to me and say hey
can you play at this club and I'm like yeah
that's great
we didn't have a lot of shows that particular month

(46:13):
and I blame myself I even apologize to the band guys
I'm so sorry like I did not do my due diligence
this was like
we booked it like three months in advance
and like cool
we did the promo and that kind of stuff
and I did like a cursory level

(46:33):
I mean look at the website that kind of thing
it was not a big deal well
the week before the event is went of the gig
I was like cool let me like
dive in and just see if I can get some pictures
of the venue was gonna put some stuff in our event
and just kind of spice it up
and that's when I discovered that it was a smoking bar

(46:53):
uh huh
I looked at that I'm like
I wouldn't have even known to
ask that question anymore
yeah I had no idea that they were still around
I guess there's a few
and so like I said this
we had been on the books for months
we didn't have very many gigs

(47:13):
you know in this particular month at all
and so yeah
I went to practice literally that
that next day we had practice
and I apologized to the band like guys
I'm so sorry uh huh
but this is actually smoking venue
um this is a one off
like we have not I've not booked a bunch of stuff out
and all this kind of stuff

(47:34):
and hindsight like I probably should have been like
do we even want to do it like in my head
yeah it wasn't in my head the
the overarching you know
business part of me or
or even booking part of me is like
you don't cancel gigs yeah
yeah yeah
yeah that was the overarching thing

(47:55):
but at the same time I knew like
you know this is not something that I wanted to do
uh huh not something I would want to subject others to
but I I apologized and we did the gig and
you know it was
for those who haven't played in smoking bars before

(48:15):
it was bad uh huh
for those of us that started playing
yeah and there were smoking bars
yeah it wasn't terrible
mm hmm but just the presence of it was like yeah
yeah bad
and then talk about the effect of smoke on your voice
come on
yeah I don't know if I would have made it

(48:35):
I am so sensitive to that stuff
it makes you so dry it makes me cough
cause I'm just very sensitive in my lungs apparently
so kudos to you to making it through that hahaha
yeah
and the the people there were super nice
like they were great to work with and all of that

(48:56):
and they're like oh
we'd love to have you guys back
and I'm like yeah
I just had to say well
if you become a non smoking place
let's talk yeah
you told them oh yeah
oh yeah
and yeah yeah
I just I didn't want to
you know be
you know fall under false pretense
yeah yeah
yeah and like make up a bunch of stuff
I'm like I just gotta let you know
and they're like actually yeah

(49:17):
we're we're definitely thinking about it
and that really kind of thing
so yeah it's
it had been something that was on their mind
and yeah
poor staff like yeah
oh my God like
but yeah it was anyways yeah
it was definitely a
a lesson Learned for me after booking

(49:37):
how many ever yeah
you still learn right
and you still make mistakes
if you wanna call it that right
but there's still always stuff to learn
and so uh
talk to me about your props
cause I wanna I wanna talk about that stuff
uh list building right as a band um

(49:58):
first of all what is list building
and second of all how does one build a list
and why should you have a list
yes list
list building is basically building traffic
or building a list of names that you own
or addresses that you own
so social media

(50:18):
we don't own that content
we don't own the people that follow us like if Facebook
Instagram whoever decides to shut down
TikTok just about shut down for like 3 minutes right
seriously
oh no oh
we spent more time talking about it than it was down
yeah
but it's happened before
and it may not sure if you run into this

(50:40):
but like you might be running an ad
or you might be doing something
and you've got an event that you're promoting
and for whatever reason during that time
like Facebook is down mm hmm
it's like oh man now
now nobody's gonna message but regardless
you don't own those platforms
or the contacts that have even said that

(51:02):
they'll follow you so email and uh
SMS or text messaging and yeah
I was gonna say like
maybe messaging if you use a third party platform
like mini chat or something like that
like that might be kind of close to owning

(51:22):
but that's still a platform still yeah
it's still many chat yeah
yeah it's still not your
like a phone number or an email that
you have in your address book
yeah yeah right
um but yeah
a list is important so that you can
have an additional way to talk to someone
one on one so that you can be in their inbox

(51:47):
and so that you can have a conversation with them and
and let them know what's going on one on one
as opposed to relying on them
seeing your post or your event
and I think a lot of times
we get kind of nervous or hesitant like oh
I'm posting too much
or I don't want to bombard them or get on their nerves

(52:10):
and probably just when you think
you're just starting to get on someone's nerves
you should probably turn it up a little bit'cause
you're probably just now scratching the surface yeah
yeah yeah'cause
you know you never know who sees what yeah
absolutely yeah
so one of the things that we have done

(52:31):
and that I recommend doing is taking advantage of
not just your online presence
but like your live shows
and trying to find ways to build your list
at your shows
whether or not they actually came to see you
or they just happened to be there yeah
and they stayed and they loved you and it was great

(52:54):
have a way that they can
basically ascend up your value ladder
that they can yeah
get on your list and so yeah
that's one of the things that we have
that we do
yours is so much more professional than what I did
oh my gosh when I was gigging
I just had an iPad with me
would tell people
put your email address in here and I'll email you

(53:16):
but I never did anything with it
but I at least pretended like I would right
but that's so cool with the QR code
yes um
this is actually yeah
I realized now this is actually our Venmo
but we do have a QR code for our Instagram and yeah
also for our email list okay
and so one of the things that we

(53:37):
you know I try to do
don't do nearly as as well as I should
is to let people know hey
you know we've
you know come up on stage
if you're on the dance floor or whatever
these are obviously public gigs too
or actually I should say
this is a way that we build leads and build a list
at public and private gigs

(53:59):
because private gigs get you more
private gigs
you're at a wedding and you've got
you know this
you know 200 people there
and just so happens that
there's three engaged couples there
that are looking like oh my gosh
this is great yes
you've literally just auditioned
got paid

(54:20):
well yes
to audition yes for another
wedding which has happened a lot
so obviously business cards are a great way to like
get people to contact you and things like that
but for folks that want to just hear more about you
or just to be aware of you especially
especially public gigs um

(54:42):
we have what we call gig cards
and these are cards that have our website
but I just let you know
where will be playing next
the time the date
and then that's awesome so you keep updating these yes
yes and so I've had many conversation after

(55:05):
after a show of someone looking at this and be like
oh hey
we should do the thing isn't your birthday
like people are making plans right there
in the excitement of just getting done
listening to the show yeah
and this is also a very good conversation starter

(55:26):
mm hmm
I like to thank people for coming and things like that
and just kind of have these with me
yeah love for you to come see us again
you know unlike a business card
it's like I don't want you to like hey
go to my house like
here's literally this thing
yeah that you can use
and when we first started using these

(55:47):
we had a lot of people that was like
oh my gosh I love these
you know
I put these on my refrigerator just so I can know
and it kind of takes away the burden of again
of them having to see you on social
mm hmm having to like see all of your posts
um but yeah
that that has helped quite a bit

(56:07):
um just building our building our base
but the email list is definitely one of the things
I wanted to make sure that
made it really easy for people to
get signed get signed up on
which has also been a great tool for us
which and here's the thing too
you don't need a lot of people on your list

(56:31):
it's not about the amount of people
that you get on your list
it's about the fact that for whatever reason
wherever they were and they saw you they were like
I wanna see them again or
I'm gonna raise my hand and say
I like what you guys are doing
it's like cool
now you've given me permission

(56:52):
now I'm going to let you know what's going on
and it's like
I think we may have I don't know
just a couple hundred folks on our list now
like it's not many
uh huh but we just did a show I think it was last fall
um there's a a really cool place up in um Lake Freeman

(57:13):
uh huh and
I wanna say Monaco Indiana
but it's a the Madame Carol OK
it's a literally a a cruise
it's a party cruise
and it goes out for like three hours
and you can eat and stuff
but like you're on a boat
and it's literally people are there to party
mm hmm it's like 90 minutes away ish or so OK

(57:34):
we were at our last show there really
really fun time and
I saw a couple of familiar faces saying hi to people
and yeah I was talking to her and she's like yeah
you know I've heard about this
but never really knew what it was or I come but like
I'm so glad that you sent that email

(57:55):
so me and these three other friends
we came up from Indy to come to your show
and literally just
I just happened to talk to them
I guarantee that there's more instances of yeah
people that have come and show that I you know
you would never really know um
but just because of being able to get into their
their inbox

(58:16):
so yeah yeah
and when you show up in different areas of their lives
right like on social media
but also in their inbox
and then in a live setting somewhere
they are going to think about you more frequently
and more like oh
I'm putting on a vent
I should reach out to Leonard from living proof
because you're front and center in their mind right yes

(58:37):
that's awesome yes and
this the email part kind of reminds me of this
I don't know I made up this thing
it's called the I'm gonna call it the gig
I'm gonna make this name up right now gig matrix
gig gig marketing matrix okay
or the TikTok

(58:59):
to promo anyway I love it yeah
so this was so when I told you
about that period of time
where we started getting more calls
than we had to make yeah
I tried to find out like
what we were doing or what I was doing
and I realized that there was actually a system
mm hmm and I tried to like simplify it and be like

(59:22):
okay what
it just felt like it was all random
but when I boiled it down
I'm like oh
mm hmm there's actually a system
I didn't realize that I had one
but there was one yeah
yeah yeah
and so I I charted it out and it was basically
it looked like a tic tac toe board
and across the top was before

(59:45):
during after
and then down the side was
um online
offline inbox
hmm and so online
obviously social media and all that kind of stuff
and I realized like we would promote the show
and then I would promote the socials at the show during

(01:00:06):
and then
you know
whether it's video or pictures of the crowd or whatever
you know I try to make it a goal to like
post a thank you and like
capture the environment like after the show
but then the offline
back when we used to have those Nuevo newspapers
like physical papers
which are very few and far between now
yeah but they would have them

(01:00:29):
stacked at a lot of the venues that we play
and like people would pick them up cause they're music
centric yeah papers and things
so sometimes I would take out an ad
so if you're old school nouveau
I just want you to know
we did spend money on advertising
but not all the time I was going gorilla um

(01:00:50):
I would go to some of the venues that we were playing
and I would stuff these in the new bows
I love it he he so sneaky
I'm like come on
and I would literally like flip to like the music page
like boom boom yeah
yeah yeah so yeah
that's kind of like some of the offline
things that we did and if we're playing a Broad Ripple

(01:01:11):
or some place where there are actually posters
and things like that
and we do posters and posters at the venues
that's offline kind of stuff
but then yeah
the inbox was all about email and getting a chance to
to message people so just looking at that
I realized we were
we had some avenue in each of those three locations

(01:01:33):
and then the time frame before
during and after was like
oh yeah we
we don't just do the before
like we're very conscious of like
highlighting pictures
and we started taking more pictures of fans
hmm then you know it's just natural tendency
like we started off
there would be a lot of pictures of us and the band

(01:01:55):
and poses and stuff like that
especially if it was a venue that had like
cool lighting and stuff like that
but back when the
algorithm was a little bit more friendly
we found that the more pictures that we posted
of people
the quicker our fan base grew
because people would see themselves

(01:02:15):
and they would tag themselves
and if we got to a point where we knew people
we would tag them and they would tag their friends
and stuff was being shared more
because it wasn't just
of us on stage and stuff like that
but yeah but yeah
that boiled down to kind of creating
like a little system out of what seemed like chaos

(01:02:38):
but I'm like oh okay
you have a system
I know it yeah
I didn't know it but yeah
no that happened to me all the time
when I started
like with vocal coaching and things like that
and like only when I like when somebody else asked me
how did you do that I'm like
oh I have a system
I didn't know hahaha
I was just doing
but I'm always doing it the same way and it works

(01:02:59):
so yeah yeah
sometimes it takes you to like
needing it to explain it to somebody else
to realize that that's actually what you
what you have you have something
and it's not just random and it's not just luck right
it's like yeah
you found a way that worked yeah
got a good result felt good
next time that comes up let me let me start yeah

(01:03:22):
last time I start I'll start here again
uh huh and do this
and yeah that's definitely
well and it took you a long time to like
figure out the system right
I'm sure there were a lot of tweaks that you made to it
to you know
get it to what it is now and that's
that takes a lot of time a lot of effort
a lot of energy
and thankfully you created a little guide called

(01:03:48):
I did called bars to ballroom right
bars to ballrooms or something like that yes
yes okay
the bars to ballrooms toolkit toolkit yes
oh I missed the toolkit part
okay
and so it's kind of like a getting started guide for
for bands out there that wanna
level up and get more high paying gigs
can you tell us a little bit more about that toolkit
yes I can

(01:04:09):
let's just say toolkit a couple more times
no I said yeah
but no
yes the
the tool kit it's a
it's a PDF and it's one of those things where
very similar to like that gig marketing matrix
mm hmm that obviously has had a name for a long time
yeah um

(01:04:30):
where I realized there were things that we've done and
you know
clients that I've worked with and things like that
like there was
you know a system
or there were common denominators of
things that would help them get
you know private events and that have helped
us get private events
and so that's kind of what the toolkit is is like okay

(01:04:54):
before you go and just look you know hey
let me look at wedding planners
let me look at Corp before you go
looking and reaching out and asking for gigs
or offering to help like let's
let's get your let's get your house set up first
let's get your foundation set up first
so that when they see you

(01:05:15):
when they get there professional yes
the conversation's already there
so the the toolkit is like here
take these few steps let's focus on these few things
let's look at the next few gigs that you're playing
just put your content hat on real quick

(01:05:35):
and get a couple of clips
get some video of this um
if you have you know
specific songs that you're playing
that would also be on popular wedding list
that kind of thing
like get clips of those kinds of songs so that you can
you know use that kind of thing
knowing that

(01:05:56):
these are the kinds of things that are played at
weddings or
corporate events or holiday parties
that kind of thing
so the toolkit kind of helps you get from
we're a working band
we're doing gigs and things like that to
we're ready to take this next step
we're ready to
present ourselves for vendors and events

(01:06:19):
and things like that so that you're ready to
you're ready to take those calls
you're ready to have you know
your website
listed on the list of things that we send out to other
yeah folks and things like that so um
and it's important you know
it's not going to go into a lot of detail about
networking and all of that kind of stuff

(01:06:40):
like I have you know
a course and I have a you know
basically a a
a call
a coaching call
a strategy call that we can do together to like
kind of help accelerate that
but this is really to help
you take those first few steps
or those next few steps yeah
to get ready before all of that happens yeah

(01:07:03):
it's it's hard that
you have to crawl before you walk and run right
but you you kind of
you kind of do you kind of do
otherwise you're gonna fall in your face
a lot more than you have to
had to just follow the steps
so this is like step one I mean
step one
after you already have a little bit of experience right
yeah and then yeah

(01:07:23):
yeah and it's
you know falling on your face
and it's also about just having the confidence
hmm of
you know that you've got your online presence together
yeah because that's really
you know that's really one of the things that um

(01:07:44):
as a booking agent that I really started to notice
when I was pitching bands for events
and again these most of the folks that I booked
these are my friends like these like I yeah
we've done shows together
we sat in with each other
we've done events together
so like I personally like invested like how can I help
but

(01:08:06):
a lot of times it was
they're fantastic on stage
mm hmm they're fun
they're energetic like
I know that they would have a good time
if you hired them kind of thing yeah
but the online presence didn't match yeah
the on stage presence and you know

(01:08:29):
unfortunately unless you just
you know I did have a few folks I was able like
just go see him live hmm
you know we're like
I did have some instances where I was able like
skip over that like yeah
post a note yeah
this just go see him live
trust me don't worry about that
but a lot of times if you know
we don't have a gatekeeper or whatever
people are just looking online yeah

(01:08:51):
they're gonna look online first
or they're gonna see you online first
so you want that online presence
whether it's social or website
to want them to take the next step
honestly
it's something that's really important to me personally
as like a client or something uh
in any any field out there where it's like

(01:09:13):
if you have a great online presence
you seem less scammy
and you know in today's world
there's a lot of scams out there
yeah and so yeah
do yourself a favor and build that presence
so you don't look like you're a scam yeah
you'll get you'll get a lot more business that way

(01:09:34):
obviously yeah
and yet just you know
even with that the website part of it too is you know
having that presence will
you know even if people aren't looking on social
or things like that like you're you know
one of the things that we work on with our website is
like I'll go in and tweak the
you know the names of the

(01:09:54):
or the titles of the pages and like
work on the behind the scenes
like SEO stuff
so that I wanna be confident that when people search
indie
wedding band or wedding entertainment in Indianapolis
or whatever version of that
I want us to be on the first page somewhere yeah
yeah and um

(01:10:16):
for a lot of those we are you know
some of those come from being on sites like
you know
wedding wire or the bash cause those mmm hmm sites
their business is helping people book things so yeah
it's another thing too
if you have a chance to be on there
if you can create if you can create a free profile
see how it works for you like

(01:10:37):
don't necessarily just go throwing money at those sites
but um
though they have their own juice
so if you will for SEO
so sometimes we will appear on the first page
but it'll be our
our bash profile or our wedding wire profile
which is fine
like we just want Wanna be on there somewhere
we just yeah

(01:10:57):
just wanna be in the conversation somewhere
yes yes
yes yes yes
I love that um
can I add a link in the show notes to your
bar bars to ballroom no ball bars to ballrooms toolkit
you have to add the s yes
bars to ballrooms toolkit
can I add a a link to that so people can check it out

(01:11:20):
you certainly can yes
talking about list building right
yes exactly
yes definitely yeah
it's a free it's a free download
um awesome that I wanted just to
make available
and then obviously if you wanna wanna talk
if you want some take it to the next step
and accelerate the whole process
cause my friend Ty
time is money it is time is money

(01:11:40):
it is and we're coming into a busy time for booking
and people yeah
doing summer weddings and getting yeah
and that's the thing too obviously
probably not look looking at weddings for this summer
but we are already next summer
inquiries for next summer
wow even for um

(01:12:00):
holiday party and things like that
yup yup
so yeah now's the time get it even for grant my
my husband he has a uh
engineering business
he already got the restaurant for the
the holiday dinner like don't
they don't throw a big party
cause there's only 20 people yeah
um but they already booked the restaurant in February

(01:12:22):
for December next year so people are planning ahead
so if you really wanna get into it
start now because
it's gonna take a little bit to
get those bookings rolling in
and then actually fulfill the bookings yes right yeah
a lot of times there you know
we do get a few

(01:12:42):
excuse me
we do get a few events or weddings that are maybe
three to six months yeah
like in advance like something happened and it's like
oh gosh we gotta do this or we yeah
just decided to have this
but a lot of times yeah
it's eight 12
18 months yeah
yeah into the future of like we picked a date

(01:13:04):
we picked it for this reason and we've
you know when it comes to weddings
a lot of times it's like they'll start with the venue
yep that's what we do wedding planner
if there's if there's one and then several other things
like usually I think band is like
five or six maybe six or seven down the list

(01:13:24):
unless you get some folks that are like
the music is the most important part
like this wedding we're playing this weekend
they're like yeah
we aren't even doing speeches like the uh
bride and groom we're not even doing speeches
we're doing that at the rehearsal dinner
hmm and we're not doing them at the wedding
because I don't want

(01:13:46):
I want you guys to be on soon as possible
like so I don't even want speeches at the wedding
and they're like
a lot of people there aren't gonna
care about the speeches like
so that's rehearsal dinner stuff yeah
like so if you get folks like that
which are few and far in between but are amazing
they're like we just want to I'm the party
I'm like yeah
that's what we want too yes

(01:14:08):
hahaha and you're bringing the party so yes
everybody's ready to have a good time
let's do what's funny is
I was trying to get you in the band a couple years ago
cause I know I know
but that was before you rejoined yeah
I wasn't I think yeah
it was I was trying to get you to come with me okay
cause it yeah cause it was basically
basically I moved back and then yeah

(01:14:30):
I think it was
sometime during the time we were working together
I realized you were also
we realized we were both in Indianapolis
like what yes
but it was for it was months like it's like what
that's crazy and yeah then I was like coming back in
and then our
lead singer at the time was leaving a few months
and I'm like oh

(01:14:51):
well we need somebody alright
what's up you what's up and you're like
let me look at your schedule yes
I remember that and no yeah
I was like I can do like two to three gigs a month
but it was like two to three gigs a week
and I was like yeah
I just I don't have the capacity
I would love to it sounds like so much fun

(01:15:12):
but I also need to have a life
haha
but catch me at a another time in my life
where I'm not so busy
teaching everybody else how to sing
understand completely
yeah and oh
I do have a question for you
yes so speaking of venues and bars and things like that

(01:15:34):
and we were um
talking about this but the last time that we had lunch
yeah you were about to embark upon a tour
that's right
we've talked a little bit about it
obviously I've seen some things like that
but how did that process go for you
being back on stage and just being in that environment

(01:15:56):
and things like that yeah
how'd that go well
I was on tour with the band Alice and funny enough
they're actually going to be here at my house on Sunday
because they're on tour again
and they needed a place to
to sleep and it was like
I'm on the road come with
come hang with me so they'll be here on Sunday
and I'm so excited to see them

(01:16:16):
um but
uh honestly
it was it was a really great experience obviously
and for me I was the background singer
not the lead singer
so it was really low pressure for me
because I was just there to support
not to be the star of the show
yeah and that was actually really quite nice
I really enjoyed that I maybe should have

(01:16:38):
like when I was younger you know
um I should have gone into background vocals
because it is just it is nice to not
like for me personally
it was nice to not be center stage
and just be there to support and still do what I love
but not have all that pressure
yeah um
I was super sick the first three days
yeah I uh

(01:16:58):
didn't know but I
when I left when I flew out to LA
um to rehearse
we had like two days of rehearsals
and then we went on the road
and um
when I flew there I was still fine
but then the next day I started coughing and like
it was just bad bad bad
bad bad
I had walking pneumonia and I never get sick

(01:17:20):
like the last time I was sick before then
was more than 2 years prior to that
and I haven't been sick since hahaha
but I was like oh my God
you've got to be kidding me
and so I uh
was backstage laying on the sofa
super sick had a fever
everything
and they gave me like ibuprofen so I could like
make it through the show yeah
so the first three shows were rough

(01:17:42):
but again luckily I was a background singer
not the lead singer
don't know if I would have made it through
the show as a lead singer right
that's tough yeah
but um
but then after that
I was back on my feet and feeling good
feeling great and
and then I really actually got to enjoy it
but it was it was definitely a really
really cool experience

(01:18:02):
yeah you encouraged me to do it
cause we were talking like
should I do it should I not
because you know
I'm this like blonde bubbly girl and they're like
you know all black and dark makeup and everything
I was like it's not really like
I don't really fit in like image wise
and you were like no
go for it like do it
this is such a great thing to try

(01:18:23):
and I'm grateful for your advice
oh you sure
and your friendship
you know that I was able to talk to you about it
and you had a great breakfast there too
or lunch yeah haha
yeah just with your
your you know
just your vibe and um
just being able to step into a role
yeah and then you know

(01:18:44):
not only was it that but I was just like
girl this is what like
you're like
gonna do the thing that you're coaching folks to do
and like it's yeah yeah
so I'm glad I'm glad that you had a good opportunity
or a good experience with that other than being sick
that's a part of the experience too
right and you have to learn how do you deal with it

(01:19:04):
so there was content from that too
that's true like okay
if you're on the road
or even you just have a gig and you're sick
what can you do right
and you can't cancel the gig right right right
sometimes you have to cancel the gig
but if that's not an option
what do you do so lot of learning experiences for sure
and speaking of which
did you play any of those shows in smoking bars
yes uh

(01:19:25):
Denver that was the last one I was sick at and I
I don't think it technically was a smoking bar
but you know
sometimes with like these underground kind of bars
it's like you know
people have been partying for a while
and it's like midnight or whatever
so they start smoking inside
because they had a couple too many drinks

(01:19:45):
and they don't really care anymore
and then there's the smoke machines and all that
the fog machines or whatever
yeah and I was like
oh my God my throat is so dry
what is happening
and so it took a little bit of adjustment
it took a little bit of adjustment
but made it yeah
still alive professional professional yeah

(01:20:08):
you have to adjust to what the situation is
you don't always have full control over
what's gonna happen so
you make the best
out of the situation that you've been dealt with yeah
yes that is
that is for sure uh huh
especially when you're yeah
on stage at events oh
so and so said that we've got to do the thing here

(01:20:29):
we got to do it there
ready okay
yeah that's fine hahaha yes
yes absolutely
absolutely and then you can complain after the fact
yeah but hahaha
just get through it years later and be like okay
let me tell you what happened
yeah hahaha
it was so scarring I will never be the same
so traumatic hahaha

(01:20:50):
no I love it
thank you so much Leonard
for coming on and for sharing with us
how can we get into better paying gigs
cause I remember the summer of 2019
where I was gigging 4 to 5 times a week
three to four hour gigs
and losing my voice because I was singing so much
and it was by myself
and I was barely getting paid that entire summer

(01:21:11):
over those four months or whatever
I made just enough money to pay off my PA system really
yep
okay that seems a little out of whack okay yeah
I mean like all of the like the
the new keyboard and the
like all of the equipment that I needed to
you know actually do those kinds of gigs yeah

(01:21:33):
I made just enough money to cover that and you know
it was a couple thousand dollars like I don't know
three four thousand dollars or something like that
and I was like I am working myself to the bone here
and I make no money
why am I doing this this is not bringing me joy
cause a lot of times you know
these like gurus in the music industry say like

(01:21:54):
you have to play the crappy gigs
like that's just a part of it
that's how you you know
become a real artist and what not
and I'm like
none of these people cared about me playing there
it wasn't like I was building a fan base or anything
like that was it experience
yeah sure
but like yeah
I have paid my dues I don't need to continue doing this

(01:22:15):
there wasn't a music industry like dues checker
exactly hmm okay
she paid a she played 100 of those yeah
just 84 more deuces you know yeah
exactly exactly yeah
so yeah I
I do wish that I had known you back in 2019
now is that what's
you know obviously we're going long here people

(01:22:37):
but listen now
is that part of what initiated Vox Tape or was it yes
very much so I was like
my husband's working 9 to 5
I mean not really
but let's pretend he's working 9 to 5
I'm working nights and weekends and he's my roadie
so you know
like
he helps me like set stuff up and come with me to gigs
cause I don't wanna go alone and whatever

(01:22:58):
and you know
we just have opposite schedules
we never really had time to hang out
and do things together and it was just not a good time
and I was like I
I don't wanna work nights and weekends
because I wanna spend time with my husband and uh
do other things as well it just didn't fit my lifestyle
and at the same time I also made no money

(01:23:20):
and I'm like I would like to eat pretty please
like yes
I could do that
because I had a husband who was paying my bills
right but most people don't have that
um and so it's like
oh my how do
how do people live like I
I don't understand it and so I was like nope
I don't I

(01:23:41):
I don't enjoy it and it is a lot of work for no money
why am I doing this
and went through a whole identity crisis
because I was like
performing is all I ever thought I wanted to do
and now I'm doing it and I hate it
what's happening so for a good year and a half there

(01:24:01):
I was like should I quit
should I keep going should I quit
should I keep going
and I was so ashamed to admit to other people
that I don't wanna do it anymore
because I thought that they would see me as like
a failure you know
like well
she didn't make it so she quit
and it's hard to get to that point and realize
oh my goodness

(01:24:22):
all I know and I'm speaking from experience like yeah
college but yeah
my dad sent me to Purdue yeah
to be an industrial engineer didn't take yeah
but you get to a certain point yeah
in whatever your situation might be and you're like
okay
all I know for sure right now is what I don't wanna do

(01:24:42):
uh huh
I
the possibilities are endless out there
of what I could do
but I can't even focus on what that is
because all I know right now is I do not want to be
yeah industrial engineer
I do not want to perform yeah
all this kind of stuff yeah
that's a tough that's a tough spot
I'm sure well
and then I I picked up voice lessons on the side
because I was like

(01:25:03):
I need to make money like this this ain't it
this ain't paying the bills
grant is but I also wanna be able to pay the bills
right
and so I started teaching voice lessons on the side
and I was like oh
I actually really enjoy this
like one on one with somebody
I feel like
I can actually make a difference in your life
and people care
and I'm now playing some music while you're eating

(01:25:25):
and you don't even notice I'm there right
like I'm not enriching your life
could you turn yeah
exactly and I like it's like I want I wanna help you
I wanna do like you know
and so vocal coaching really gave me that that feeling
and when Covid hit and I had to cancel my tour

(01:25:45):
I was like okay
this is a sign I am allowed to go
put all of my energy into vocal coaching
and back then I was called Laura Chapman Music
and now it is not that anymore
then that turned into Vox Tape Studios
and much happier with this situation

(01:26:05):
and when I get to sing for somebody
that's fun but it's because I want to do it
not because I have to do it
and yeah I love it
that's awesome yes
yes that's very cool
so glad yeah
I didn't know the the origin of the yeah
the story like when it started
but I'm like oh
she's saying this is what I don't like oh

(01:26:26):
that sounds like an origin story
let me just ask is this when it started a branding baby
what what hahaha
I love it well
thank you so much Leonard for joining me
um we have the link in the
in the show notes in the description everywhere
exactly wherever the button is
where the link is go check it out
so you can download that free toolkit

(01:26:48):
yes not guide
but tool kit um
so that you can start getting paid for your gigs
and not play for free like what I did so don't bother