February 20, 2025 • 55 mins
The Great Migration is the ever-moving circular migration of over a million animals across the Serengeti-Mara ecosystem and one of the most sought-after experiences for wildlife and nature enthusiasts worldwide.
The constant movement of columns of wildebeest, joined by a host of companions, including predators such as lions, cheetahs, leopards, and hyenas, as they follow an age-old route in search of grazing and water.
After calving in the southern part of Tanzania’s Serengeti near the Ngorongoro Conservation Area, the animals journey through the Serengeti up and around in a clockwise direction towards the Masai Mara in Kenya, before returning once again near the end of the year.
Join Professor Goway and James Haigh, a leading figure in the African tourism industry with over 15 years of extensive experience as a guide, lodge manager, overland driver, and marketing manager across multiple East African countries, as they discuss the beautiful intricacies of the Great Migration.
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(00:02):
One of the most sought after experiences for wildlife and nature enthusiasts, the GreatMigration is the ever moving circular migration of over a million animals across the
Serengeti Mara ecosystem.
The constant movement of columns of wildebeest joined by a host of companions follow anage old route in search of grazing and water.
(00:25):
After carving in the southern part of Tanzania's
The animals journey through the Serengeti in a clockwise direction towards the Masai Marain Kenya before returning once again to begin the cycle.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaie and welcome to the Goaie Pro Travel Talepodcast.
(00:52):
Travel far and travel often.
Welcome everyone.
Today I'm speaking to James Hi, who is coming from, actually James, where are you?
Are you in Kenya or Tanzania at the moment?
I've just got home.
So I'm in Tanzania in a little village called Usa River, which is about halfway betweenArusha town, which is the jump off point for most safaris in Northern Tanzania and
(01:18):
Kilimanjaro International Airport.
So I'm on the foothills of an active volcano, Mount Meru.
We've got the most almighty storm hovering overhead.
So a second ago we had a thunder clap that made me think that something was fallingthrough the roof and the dogs all started barking.
So if I get interrupted by some weather, my apologies.
(01:39):
No problems, there we go, very authentic.
James, I'm just going to read from here.
James is a leading figure in the African tourism industry with over 15 years of extensiveexperience across countries like Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa and beyond.
Also Morocco, the Seychelles as well.
(02:00):
And you've just, I just did quick reading.
Now I know James, we've met a few times.
James joins us always at our Africa event that GOA runs in the US and Canada over theyears.
And hopefully he'll be joining us again this year in 2025 in Canada.
More information about that coming up soon.
But I understand, James, you were elected chairperson of the African Travel and TourismAssociation in 24.
(02:22):
Is that true?
Yeah.
So I became chair in October.
It's a two year position.
And in all honesty, Dom, bit of a shock.
I've always looked up to and remind everybody in Atta and I never thought that I thoughtit was too posh to let someone like me in.
thought that I thought they only let you know, clever people in that could do a lot.
(02:43):
But they came to me at in Daba last year and said, you up for it?
I like Yeah, I like a challenge.
And I firmly believe in Atta as an institution.
It does a lot of good work for the travel trade around the world.
And basically it exchanges information.
It's just a useful place, useful thing to be a member of so you can talk to other peopleand learn from them and learn the lessons and not have to reinvent the wheel.
(03:09):
It's good.
It's a nice organization.
Yeah.
well, congratulations from Gowee on that appointment.
Now you're also the head sales and marketing manager of LaMala Camps and also Adrift.
And LaMala is an authentic collection.
(03:30):
I'm going to read from here.
It's an authentic collection of luxurious lodges, intimate villas and classic tented campswith location in Tanzania's Serengeti, Ngorogoro and
Teringiri regions as well as Uganda's River Nile.
So we'll talk a bit more about Lamala camps in partnership with the migration, which isactually what we're here to talk about today.
(03:54):
But can you give us a bit of a quick synopsis of Adrift?
What does Adrift do?
So Adrift is our adventure brand.
So we have one property, have one Lamala camp, sorry, we have one Lamala lodge in themiddle of the river Nile in Uganda.
It's on possibly the last surviving piece of primary forest in the southern part of theriver Nile.
(04:16):
So ecologically, it's really important.
We've got a beautiful property in the middle of the river.
Only way to get there is by canoe.
It's surrounded by white water, as the name suggests.
But in order to conserve that piece of primary forest, we also have a four-star propertyon the mainland and an overland campsite and an activity company.
(04:37):
So for those of you that are aware of Victoria Falls, we run whitewater rafting at five orsix different levels according to how exciting people want it.
We have ATVs, horses to ride, mountain bikes to go along the banks of the river, and thetallest bungee tower in East Africa.
So we have the Adrift brand.
that satisfies people that are spending a little bit less money perhaps, but still want togo to this pristine environment and enjoy it.
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We've covered who you are to some degree, for our listeners, they're probably picking up aBritish accent.
just a quick little pre-Lamala, pre-Adrift.
What's your history with being in Africa, I guess, for one of the better statements?
Yeah, so born and raised in London.
So my accent used to be a lot more goblimey than it is now.
(05:26):
So I a proper company.
Born within the sound of bo bells.
But I moved out to Africa having studied at university, having been a stockbrokeractually, originally studied at university, and I came to Africa to teach at high school.
So I taught a mixture of English language, English literature, and sports, which is a bitof unusual mix.
(05:48):
in Kenya, but I also ran out with them programs.
So I did a lot of work with the Kenya Wildlife Service for young kids, not just from theschool that I was teaching at, which segued into working, running a volunteer organization
that brought young teachers out to work on a volunteer basis in Africa.
And each of those career evolutions brought me closer and closer to tourism.
(06:12):
And I spent when I first lived outside Kenya, I was living for 14 years.
in a house with no electricity and no running water, collecting water and a little bit ofsolar panel.
So I was living very much the dream of being in Africa.
then I'm and I guided I did a lot of things in that period of about a 20 year period.
And then I met my wife.
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And anybody that knows me knows how proud I am of my wife.
Full disclosure, she's my boss.
We used to run a large company that the Marla was part of on a joint CEO basis.
that restructured reorganized, she stayed, I left.
When I came back, I had to acknowledge the reality, which is that when you work with yourwife, then it's not very different from being at home.
(07:00):
She's the CEO and I'm responsible for the revenue side, bringing the money in and forcreating and popularizing the brand.
Okay, is she a fellow Brit or is she a born and bred African?
I see this is where it comes interesting for the Galway tribe.
She's a, she's a detribe tribalized Aussie.
(07:22):
So she's actually a reverse migrant.
So she is a Western Australian Australian that moved to South Africa, which is where wemet.
whereas most South Africans from Cape Town are going to Perth, she went the other way.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, she kind of, she went the other way.
Yeah, she's a reverse migrant and actually with like to Perth on Friday.
(07:45):
Nice.
Yeah.
For those who may not know, there was, I'm not sure if it's still going on, but there wasa large movement of South Africans across to WA a while ago.
So there were lots of South Africans in Australia and obviously a few going, as James justmentioned the other way.
Now you said you're off to Perth on Friday, but again, we will get to the migration.
(08:05):
Don't worry.
But this is quite fascinating.
You've just come back from a trip to the Congo.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
Well, Congo Brazzaville says two Congos.
Okay.
There's the, there's Congo Kinshasa DRC, which lives in the public imagination quite highbecause it's always in the news for bad news.
(08:26):
it's the place where a lot of the fighting is going on in the east over middle rights andwhat have you post the genocide in Rwanda.
A lot of nastiness.
I've been into that area.
the other side from Rwanda and Uganda, but we went to Congo Brazzaville, which is a lotfurther west.
incredibly safe.
(08:47):
We didn't see anybody having to guard anything.
I think you could leave your car open on the streets.
People incredibly nice.
And we went on a bit of a recce trip, see if we ever want to do anything in thatparticular area.
So we went up into the north into the rainforest, tracking gorillas, west, what they callWestern lowland gorillas.
That's the third kind of gorilla we've been to see chimpanzees, mandrels, forestelephants.
(09:12):
But there's no tourist infrastructure.
So we were literally walking through almost waist deep swamp water to get to these openareas where you see all these forest elephants and forest buffalos congregating.
We had the most amazing time, but I've got to say at 58 years old, I was probably morecomfortable doing it when I was 25.
I thought my age by the time we got back.
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we just spent three weeks.
I turned 58 on New Year's Eve.
And Lee's birthday, I won't tell you how old she was, but it was her birthday on thethird.
So this was a bit of a birthday recce explore adventure for a couple of old folks.
Right.
Now, I did a bit of not in person, sadly enough, but I some sort of quick research forGoAid because we were we are looking at that area as well as opening up.
(10:03):
But then we can chat off air and get some inside scoop.
Yeah.
With you having been there on the ground.
That's that's pretty cool.
So as promised to you and to our listeners, we are here to talk about the migration.
Now,
I want still any thunder here.
(10:25):
This is probably one of the, as I mentioned in the intro, this is probably one of thebiggest attractions for East Africa.
And a lot of people don't really know the details about it.
Of course, everyone has probably seen on all the famous documentaries, Nat Geo andeveryone, everyone else in their dog and brother with some video of the famous crossing of
(10:46):
the rivers by the wildebeest, but there's much more to it than that.
So can you talk us through
what the migration actually is in its entirety.
Cool.
So if anybody says to me, what is the migration?
I'm to give you a factual answer.
It's about 1.5 to 1.7 million wildebeest, Thompson gazelle and zebra, massive zebra orplain zebra migrating in a clockwise fashion between the Mara and Serengeti ecosystems,
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straddling the Kenya Tanzania border.
So, and followed by lions and predators that will eat off the factory.
That's right.
If we're talking about the travel trade, my recommendation is that for most prospectiveclients, what the wildebeest migration is, is lots and lots of wildebeest running across
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the bush, getting to a river, looking at it, thinking about it, usually the zebras jump infirst, the wildebeest follow and then certain number of them get eaten by a crocodile.
Now, if that is what a prospective client perceives as
migration.
that's the image it conjures up for them and that's what they want, then as a traveltrade, we have to ask people some very honest questions.
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When can you travel?
because there is only truthfully one river in the entire ecosystem where that happens.
And that's the Mara River that flows through the Masai Mara in Kenya across the border andexit through the Serengeti into Lake and towards Lake Victoria.
(12:26):
And that is only right up in the north of that ecosystem.
And those river crossings happen between maybe as early as July, August and September eachyear.
So if you have a client that says, can only travel in November, but I want to see theriver crossings, they're not going to see it.
So either you have to prepare them for what they will see in November.
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And in November, they will be in the Western Central side of the Serengeti moving downtowards the South, where there are no rivers, where they spread out a lot more.
And at this time of year, just starting to give birth slightly later, you're going to seea different thing.
And as is always the case in tourism,
we have to give people the right expectations rather than ask them to adjust their, sorry,we have to give them the right expectations before they travel, rather than try and adjust
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their expectations when they arrive.
So the Wilderbeest happens year round, because believe it or not, I sometimes get asked,when is the migration?
Well, there's 1.5 million of them, there's always that.
So it's a question of where they are in that cycle.
So to talk you through the cycle.
If we start with those river crossings, which can be as early as July, July, August,September, that's in the north.
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And in the area around we have a property there Lamala Korea Hills Lodge.
have a tent camp up there at the same time Lamala Mara.
Then after those three months, it tails off and starts trekking south.
It'll come through to the central Serengeti on the western side.
By November, it'll be
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heading south into the southern short grass plains right down by Lake Masseck and LakeNdutu.
By January, they're giving birth.
By the time we get through to July, they'll be starting to head north through the easternside in a hurry.
And the whole cycle completes and runs again.
So the wildebeests behave differently in different places.
(14:28):
Now, for those who are listening, you just heard James explain the circuit.
For those who are watching this, we would have put up an overlay of that just to give itcontext in regards to where James is referring to.
so for those listening, I said, you may go and look at the video version so you can get abetter understanding of what James is discussing there.
So as you mentioned, I think most people, again, would probably associate the migrationwith those river crossings and the big crocks, you know, taking advantage of
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unfortunate crosses.
We've discussed when to see that particular time.
Now I have seen video of travelers in their four wheel drives looking at the crossing.
It seems to be at times at least very busy in respect not just to the wildebeest and thezebra but people watching this.
Is it just one spot that you can watch this crossing or do the let me backtrack on that.
(15:24):
Do the animals cross at the same spot every year or do they sort of
different spots on the river based on the air.
So good question.
So the Mara River in the area in the north, is divided by two names, Cockatindy and Lamaiare the two names that people might hear for those geographies.
There are actually historically 11 different areas where they cross.
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So you can imagine you've got a river with steep banks, because when that river flows, itflows hard, so it erodes quickly.
So we've got very steep banks, but the World of Beasts break through those banks andcreate what we call chutes.
So you've got a break in the bank and a steep slope that goes down that allows them to getdown and out on the other side.
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Now, historically, there are zero through 10, so 11 different sites where they mightcongregate to cross.
So it becomes a bottleneck, hence the drama.
That's why it concentrates into these narrow, narrow lanes.
And everybody has to jump in almost literally no more than three or four at a time goingdown through these shoots.
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And you might have 100,000 guys.
That's what creates the drama and the dust.
and alerts the crocodiles because they can hear the disturbance in there and the hooves,the vibrations through the ground.
So what would typically happen is that the herds will arrive in an area three or fourkilometers back from the river crossings and the brave few will go down, they'll look at
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it.
They're quite scaredy cat animals.
So you know, if something breaks a tweak, then they all run away.
And they'll go back to
another comma or so back and they'll match again and they'll have another look place andit'll go backwards and forwards.
Ebs and flows, ebs and flows.
They might go to shoot number three and then half an hour later be at shoot number five.
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So the drivers always trying to anticipate which crossing they'll actually use.
And then finally, usually a zebra because zebra is a little bit braver and they've workedout the first one to usually get ahead.
It's got three.
It's the old thing.
They'll be at the back of the line.
So usually a zebra jumps in first and then thousands of these things will then follow themuntil one gets spooked and turns around and then they'll all turn around and it all starts
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all over again.
And what that means is that there's a lot of anticipation from the guides point of view.
There's a lot of talk in Tanzania in particular about how to manage the numbers ofvehicles there because over tourism is a very common phrase to be found in tourism at the
moment.
there are an awful lot of people wanting, as you say, to see those, the drama of thosewill to be set.
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so Tanzania is not perfect yet, but the, the, the local authority are trying to manageguide behavior.
So as a, not to influence the world of peace behavior, it's very easy to split them andstop the crossing.
but also be give tourists what they want, which is to see the drama.
(18:26):
And each year those those measures are evolving a little bit further.
vehicles are no longer allowed to park on the river banks and wait for the crossing.
They have to park slightly further away from the river to allow the wildebeest to maketheir own choice.
And then they're allowed, once they've started crossing, they're allowed to go to theriver to take photos.
(18:49):
So if I'm sorry, sorry, go on.
No, after you.
And if I'm honest, I used to be a high school teacher.
So I'm all in favor of congratulating the government of Tanzania and the managementauthority for trying and experimenting because there is no established method for managing
this.
So if I'm a traveler coming to you or to a go a destination specialist here and I want tosee the crossing Obviously, it's it's nature.
(19:14):
So, know, the world will be not going to be there on the third of whenever it you know Atnine o'clock and do it.
You know, they will decide when they're ready to cross.
So is there Let me use a completely different example, but a similar situation when youvisit Iceland most hotels have a
Northern Lights advisory or prediction so you can get an idea of when you may see theNorthern Lights.
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When you go and you specifically want to see this crossing, can you narrow it down to bethere at the right time or is there a chance you could be there over those two or three
days and in turn do you need to allow two or three days to hit when they cross?
Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we went up into the Arctic Circle to see to try and seethe Northern Lights and sadly we failed and we logged into a lot of those apps.
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They're a lot more predictable than a Wildebeest.
Because well, the Northern Lights comes down to atmospheric pressure and time of year andclarity of prediction of how many clouds are around.
Wildebeest are a lot more capricious.
In terms of maximizing opportunity of seeing World of Beasts crossing, which I thinkeffectively is what we're talking about.
(20:26):
And if we're talking to the trade, we're talking about minimalizing chances of someonecoming home and saying, dear Don, you did explain to me this is a natural phenomenon, but
I didn't see it.
And I paid all this money and I didn't see it.
And I understand that.
I experienced that in Norway, sorry, in Finland.
I think the way to look at it is that the World of Beasts
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Migration is driven by access to water for drinking.
Access to water for drinking is driven by rainfall.
Rainfall is sorry, anybody that doesn't believe in it, but climate change is a reality.
It used to be much more predictable in East Africa than it is now.
The storm we've got now is out of season.
(21:08):
So if it is vitally important to a client that they see a wild beast crossing, what I sayto people is choose three nights where
the maps and the experts tell you it would normally be in a normal year.
Right.
and then choose two nights in central Serengeti.
(21:30):
If you imagine that the map we were just talking about where you've got an oval shape,this is the rough shape of the path that they follow.
They're in a hurry going down here and up here.
They're more sedentary here and more sedentary here.
If you spend three nights where they should be here in August, if you're in central fortwo nights beforehand, that's where either they will be if they're late or where they'll
(21:53):
be if they're early.
Okay.
And it's never bad time because Serengeti has got wildlife year round.
There's a bit of a delay between James and I, so we apologize for talking over each otherat times.
Sorry.
Come on, James.
apologies.
So the other advantage of structure of structure and itinerary that way is that thewildebeest can dominate your entire experience.
(22:18):
It's almost the wood for the So when you're by the river, then two things, the wildebeest,there's so many of them, thousand of them making such noise and drinking so much water and
eating so much grass and followed by lions.
it actually pushes less numerous species away from them.
(22:40):
So it's very unlikely that you'll see much in the way of bushbuck, dick dick, dikers,other antelopes, when the wildebeest are marching through because there's just so many of
them.
And even if you're there, you've got a vista of 100,000 wildebeest in front of you, whichis 400,000 pairs of legs, the chance of spotting
(23:02):
The reed buck in the corner is very, slim, they get lost.
So if you structure it that way, you maximize and do your three nights where they shouldbe two nights where they might be.
Not only do you maximize your chance of seeing the wildebeest crossings of the river, butyou also will see a wider variety of species.
Okay, so what I was going to say before is that was segueing nicely into the fact that asyou mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, that the migrations and ongoing cycle,
(23:30):
it never stops.
But there are certain points which have been made famous, the river crossing.
But to your point just then, if you can't make it at that particular time of the year foryour own personal travel reasons, that's not to say that you will not witness and
experience the migration in its grandeur at other times of the year.
And probably, as you just mentioned there,
(23:51):
I can't remember the months you mentioned, when the wildebeest and zebra are calving orgiving birth, that what I would assume would be a pretty good time to see the predators in
action, not the crocs, obviously, the lions, cheetahs, et cetera, preying upon thenewborns.
(24:11):
So today's a great example.
We I've just received photographs from the Bush from one of our couple of our guidesactually, where the world of beast mating strategy is all to give birth in a shorter
period of time as possible.
(24:32):
So they all mate at the same time, they all rot at the same time, they all carve at thesame time.
The idea being that if they drop,
quarter of a million individual babies on the ground in about four weeks that there aretoo many for the lions to eat.
Okay.
So number one, they all time, they synchronize their birth.
(24:57):
Number two, they're the most versatile animals you'll ever see.
In addition to being one of the ugliest things you'll ever see, only a mother could love awildebeest.
But they can also, a female wildebeest can midway through birth, cross your legs, stop andrun away.
Yep, they can arrest childbirth with front legs out of the wildebeest already.
(25:21):
and they can run away from a life.
And in that southern part of Serengeti where they literally they spread out.
So you imagine it's not long lines of migrating animals, like a wagon train going acrossthe old west, which is what it's like when they're in the north in the south they spread
out.
So you've got these massive long planes.
Serengeti means the land of the endless plain, just dots and dots and dots and millions ofthem.
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You can't comprehend how many and they're all giving birth around you.
They're not the best mothers in the whole world.
So our guides have to be very, very careful because if a baby pops out and the first thingit sees is the car, it will imprint on the car and follow the car.
Really?
and the mom will walk off.
(26:06):
And that's it.
Wow.
Because the calf will be abandoned to its fate.
Now in the southern part of the Serengeti, which is as I say, these short grass plains, soit's long, flat rolling plains, great country for cheetah.
So our best cheetah sightings are in the southern part of the Serengeti at this time ofyear, because you've got a baby wildebeest vulnerable, just given birth that the cheetahs
(26:32):
can take down.
So you might not have the crocodiles as you have in the north.
Jane, I'm not sure if you can hear me, but you just froze on my screen.
I think we had some lightning.
Sorry.
That's right, problem, no problems.
Imagine cheetah are long, fast animals with a big long tail that can run anything downthere, the fastest land mammal.
(26:55):
What they don't need is broken ground and things to trip them up and trees to run around.
They need straight lines and firm soil.
That's what we've got in the Southern Seven Giddy.
So that's where cheetah love to live.
Imagine this week, all of a sudden there's a couple hundred thousand wildebeest arrive,giving birth to small, very, very tasty animals that not very steady on their legs.
(27:16):
It's like a Sunday buffet in a Hong Kong hotel.
Can imagine.
So we might not have the crocodiles that we have in the North, but we do have the cheetahsin the South.
Extra advantage, if I'm going to be really honest, is a financial one.
everywhere in the world, peak travel season coincides with North American and NorthwestEuropean school holidays, July, August and September.
(27:38):
Fs go through the roof, traveling at the moment.
Traveling this month is probably cheaper than any other times.
There's no other people there.
and you know, we've had a little bit of rain around, now at the moment in our post thegreen season, I'm sure there's lots of, photographers around.
I'll ask you, I'd ask all the questions.
(27:58):
I'd ask all the photographers question, would you rather take a photograph of a brown lionor a leopard or a cheetah against the green background or a brown dusty one?
know which one I am.
And after a little bit of rain, so this time of year.
where it's quite lush and green, which is why the wildebeest are there because they're alltrying to get fat and fed before they start heading north again.
(28:22):
They're trying to get on the calories.
That's why they're there.
You've got these great photographic opportunities.
You've got wonderful cheetah interaction and lions and the hyenas that follow.
But you've also got fewer people and you've got cheaper access.
So I was actually gonna bring this up on the photography front.
(28:43):
So obviously, well, this lead into actually into a few logistical questions from your sideof the world.
So photography or experiencing the migration wherever it may be will be from a vehicle, Iwould believe.
Are there any foot safaris that get you close to the migration or is that sort ofsomething that's too dangerous?
(29:05):
Not so much dangerous, just something that we don't do because it's not, there's too manyvehicles around.
We run our walking safaris from our property in the eastern side of Sahangiri, so in theMalanay Nuki.
And we run from Curia Hills in the north.
But we run it outside that peak season when there are lots of cars running around.
(29:28):
And those things, I mean, we can't discount the possibility of a stampede that runs youover.
It's very unlikely.
But the walking safaris we run are more about seeing animals at a distance, butrecognising the spore on the ground, tracking things and talking about grasses and shrubs
(29:49):
and how the environment comes together as an environment, as a biome, rather than tryingto get close to things.
in all honesty, wildebeest tend to, they have a lot of hangers on, not just the lions andthe hyenas and the leopards.
But know insect life and what have you for anything that gets stirred up when they'rewalking past wouldn't be my choice.
(30:11):
Fair enough.
Okay, so nine times out of ten, at least in the migration experience, it'll be in avehicle.
So can you just give a quick description of what the vehicles are like?
And I would assume by now most of the animals, unless it's in their face, they just theydon't really recognize the vehicles as a threat or as an obstacle.
(30:31):
So firstly, our vehicles are built to cope with the fact that our roads get quite rough.
The reason they get quite rough isn't because they're not maintained.
It's because when we do have rain, we have significant rain here followed by significantdry periods.
So they go from very muddy to very dusty and all the erosion comes with it.
So the vehicles have to be robust to start with.
(30:54):
In the past, lots and lots of Land Rovers, increasingly more and more Toyotas.
so mostly Toyota Land Cruiser, which are converted.
so depending on what style of Safari people book, and I'll talk about that in a second,people will either be in our case in a closed Land Cruiser, which will have six seats.
(31:18):
So, in aircraft terms, they all have windows that they're all window seats.
So there's no middle row.
You don't have to fight with anybody like this.
and what we call a pop-up roof.
So it's a sun roof that lifts up with a piece of shade netting to keep the sun off.
So you stand up to either, so you can either sit or stand up when you're driving and standup or sit down to take photographs out the window.
(31:46):
That's a closed vehicle or we have completely open vehicles which are just a six pointlike a roll cage.
Again, with a tarpaulin over the top.
keep the sun off where you sit down at about I'd say about seven and half feet above theground and you can take your photographs in there but again only six seats and then the
(32:11):
driver and an extra passenger if you're traveling in group of seven.
Right.
So if you're a photographer, be professional, avid, or it's your trip of a lifetime andyou've just got your camera there.
Access to taking photos, as you mentioned, there's no middle seats.
So everyone will be able to use their zoom lens, which I would highly recommend to getthat shot.
(32:33):
And with safety always in mind, people will be in positions to get good photos based onwhat's happening in front of them.
So again, you won't be next door to a wildebeest.
or anything like that, but you will definitely have advantageous positioning to photographand or video.
Yeah, and we train our guides to be very conscious of where they stop the car in relationto the wildlife.
(33:00):
So obviously, you've got three and three, so they'll they'll alternate who gets the bestside as it were, and they'll often move around a site.
It says a group of lines, for example, by a waterhole, then they'll park with the lines onthe right, go for a drive, come in in a different angle and allow the car to be on the
left.
But that doesn't it doesn't mean to see the you can't see
(33:21):
Yeah.
If you're not an expert, that makes sense.
Yeah, so that's number one also to take into account the light.
Because you're never going to get a good photograph without the right being light beingnicely positioned, which is the advantage of working with a let's just call it a more
professional guide rather than somebody that's just driving people around.
is a route guiding it guiding is a profession.
(33:42):
It's not just a question of driving around and go look, there's interpreting that linesbehavior.
is talking about the fact that the elephant balls got
sweat gland behind his ear that's leaking, which means it is likely to be a little bitmore frisky.
And making sure that your client not only knows that but is in the right position torecord it for posterity and create his memory.
(34:04):
What I would say is that for a lot of people, most wildlife photographs are taken fromabout six foot five.
So changing the angle and taking photographs from low and up high actually is what makes aphotograph.
okay.
Interesting.
So again, we can advise if there are any photographers out there, like I'm one of them.
(34:24):
If you have any specific requests to again, it's nature.
nothing can be guaranteed, of course.
But if you have a particular animal, bug, bird, whatever, because obviously Africaanywhere is also fantastic for birding.
Actually, since we are talking migration, is there a following?
(34:45):
flock of birds of all descriptions with the migration or so what's the bird life inrespect to the migration like?
So oxpeckers and egrets and the like, the insects which are stirred up by the wildebeestpassing through are prevalent.
Other than that, most other things tend to go their own way.
(35:08):
Other of course than the eagles and the vultures that clean up the mess left behind by thedead wildebeest.
We've discussed naturally, because it's Africa and it's the migration, wildlife, wildlife,wildlife.
But if someone is focusing their trip to East Africa around the migration, now I knowthere are cultural experiences within East Africa that goes without saying, but as part of
(35:34):
the migration, is there anything cultural that people may see or is that something thatyou would do as a separate experience on top of the migration?
I don't think there's anything culturally directly linked to the border beast migration.
Okay, so the world of this migration occurs in Maasai areas, both in Kenya and Tantan,Kenya and Tantan inside of the border.
(35:57):
And in all honesty, as, as pastoralists as cow herders, the the Maasai tend to avoid tryto avoid the migration because their cows can get lost and they compete for the same
resources cows.
and waterbeasts eat the same grass and they drink the same water.
So I don't think there's huge significance from the from a mass icon of the other than thedegree of inconvenience, maybe.
(36:22):
The other thing which is true, especially in Tanzania is that the Serengeti National Parkdoesn't have Masai living or Wakuria or any other tribes living inside the Serengeti
because it's a area.
So in the town on the Tanzania side of the border, most cultural experiences
by necessity are conducted outside the national park.
(36:45):
So for example, we do a lot of work in Tarrangiri National Park with the youngest Maasaichieftain in northern Tanzania, guy called Chief LeBowler, a great guy, all in for female
education.
And we run a lot of educational projects with him.
But that's on the way into the park, rather than something you do from the property.
(37:05):
What we do have is we have lots of Maasai staff from his community working
for us in the various properties.
So there's no opportunity to go to a Boma, for example, at Nannukia or at Currie Hills,but there are staff there from Masai communities that are very happy to share their
knowledge and enthusiasm for how they live.
(37:27):
Lovely.
Okay.
So on that note, you mentioned before types of safaris you could have.
So could you give us a rundown of the type of safaris in respect to the migration that youoffer?
And by extension, the accommodation choices that someone can look forward to if they workwith, look forward to work with, with Lamala.
(37:50):
Sure.
So I think the first thing to look at is the fact that there are two ways of gettingaround and 10, so two ways of getting around Northern Tanzania and to the migration.
So either you can go on what we call a drive safari, which would mean driving out ofArusha, going to maybe Tarangiri, maybe Maniara, into Ngorongoro and then carrying on into
(38:14):
the Serengeti.
If you were to take that kind of driving Safari, then you would be by necessity by legalrights in a closed vehicle, as I described earlier with the pop roof.
That's because we have to drive, but you can't drive on the open road at 80 90 kilometersan hour.
So that's that's that's variety number one.
(38:35):
Second option actually is to fly between those locations.
So you'd fly in a small aircraft run.
locally here by very, very good, very safe companies, the safest airplane in the world.
Toyota Grand Caravan, sorry, Cessna Grand Caravan.
Toyota haven't started doing that yet.
And you would fly into nearest airstrip and then somebody like the Marla will pick you upin an open vehicle with a guide that will look for you look after you for your the time
(39:03):
that you're in that camp.
There are advantages of both and disadvantages of both.
I way I looked like to look at it is that if you spend
10 days, 12 days with one guide, you know him very, well.
So you have a greater understanding of what it is like to live in Tanzania from a localpoint of view.
(39:23):
You have a different kind of relationship and those relationships can be very strong andlast for years.
They change people's lives.
On the other hand, if you fly in, you'll be guided from a person that's always in thatarea, perhaps knows a little bit deeper, but you won't know them as well.
Right.
And then there's the cost implication.
flying safari will be a more costly solution than a drive solution.
(39:49):
Right.
But a flying solution will also benefit in the fact that you now this has a plus and anegative to it.
You get around a bit quicker.
So if time is an issue, the flying will help in that respect.
But as a ex-overland driver and loving driving, driving around also, I think gives you abetter insight into the country, wherever it may be.
Yeah.
(40:09):
Obviously flying.
think think that again, like
100%.
If you drive everywhere, you see the village and how people live day to day.
If you just fly, you go from one bubble to the next bubble, which is a tourism product toa tourism product.
Yeah.
So, but again, each has its pros and cons.
again, speak to the GoWay destination specialist based on budget and time available.
(40:33):
And you can even do a combination.
can fly some portions, drive others.
Now in respect to when you, sorry, go on James.
So then the other set of choices are that within Lamala, for example, we run two layers ofaccommodation.
So we have two layers to the brand.
So we have Lamala tented camps, which are as the name suggests, a canvas tent, reallynice, large enough for two double beds in it.
(41:00):
And an ensuite bathroom with hot water and internet charging facilities, et cetera, etcetera.
But it's a tent.
It has a wooden floor that might be a little bit creaky.
It is you'll hear the lion outside maybe a little bit clearer.
And you will sit by the fire outside talking to other travelers with a traditionalgenotype before you go and have lunch inside a mess tent.
(41:26):
Now, we also have Lamala lodges, are sometimes maybe a bit of canvas, but a little bitmore permanent, they've got more facilities.
Our lodges all have
either an outdoor bathtub or a plunge pool outside.
They will have outdoor showers as well as indoor showers.
They've got a mini bar, you've got a kettle so you can make a tea or your coffee in aFrench press.
(41:49):
They've just got more facilities.
Now, they also come at different price points a bit like the drive and the fly safari,which means that they appeal to people with different price points.
Or as you say, with the drive fly, you can actually mix it so you could go for example,
Tented camp, tent camp, lodge to spoil yourself rotten for the last three days.
(42:15):
Or you could do it the other way around and say, what I really want to do is I want tohave lodges, but I want to see what a tent camp is like because I saw the movies.
I, when I was a kid, I read Willard Price and safari adventure.
And I want to know what it is to sleep in a tent with a lion 30, 30 meters away roaringand making the tent vibrate.
(42:35):
yeah, I,
I like to look at it, the tenty camps are little bit more authentically adventure.
Yeah.
And the lodges are just a little bit more luxury.
I don't like that word luxury, but a little bit more comfortable and cosy.
You get a bit more spoiled.
More choice for dinner.
For sure.
So a key point there would be that like the ways of getting around drive, fly combination,you can also combine choices of a combination.
(43:03):
So like everything else here at GoWay, we can customize it to budget and what your clientis looking for.
Now, I would assume that all your camps, lodges are prime locations, nearby water holes,if not on top of water holes.
So just as you mentioned, they're having a lion.
outside the door, in in the vicinity, you know, roaring at night is all part of thelocation experience with Lamala.
(43:31):
Yeah, so just just to list what we have as assets.
So we have a house here about 500 meters away from where I am now for people that want toor need an overnight when they fly in from overseas.
Typically, most flights arrive late in the evening.
So we have a lot of people arrive in the evening, they have an overnight then fly out ordrive out the following morning.
(43:55):
So that's Lamala Hammock house.
Then we have of the tentative camps, we have a tentative camp in Gorgo Crater.
So that's Lamala and Gorgo tentative camp.
Then we have a tentative camp on the western side of the Serengeti, which is there allyear.
Then we have a tented camp which moves according to where the migration is from the Marain the north to the South.
(44:22):
So those are the tented camps.
The lodges are Pingo Ridge in Tangier national park.
We're just about to open on the 15th of July, Lamala Osenjoy Lodge also in Gorogor crater.
That'll be really exciting.
And then we have Lamala Nanyuki Lodge on the eastern side of Serengeti where incidentally
(44:43):
Most people appreciate that in Africa, you get walked back to your tent at nighttime witha guard at Lamal and Nanyuki and at Currier Hills.
We mandate that people go back during the daytime because we have so many lions andleopards around.
So we usually have four or five times a week, we have lion visits us in camp.
(45:04):
that's pretty cool.
And then we, as I say, we have Currier Hills up on the north by the river.
It's about a 30 minute drive away from the river.
which is nice because it's not very far, but it's far enough away to be a wave in thecrowds when there are people there.
And then as I mentioned at the beginning, also in Uganda as well.
Of course, yes, have properties in Uganda.
Okay, so we're just gonna start wrapping things up here.
(45:26):
From a practical point of view, if someone's coming out to experience the migration, froman equipment point of view, outside of photography, because again, that's quite a personal
choice, but I think in general, we could say that having a zoom lens as some descriptionwould be beneficial.
Beyond that, now you mentioned most of your camps, if not all of them have chargingopportunities, which makes sense, like there's power there, it's not that.
(45:50):
It's not that remote.
obviously, you know, being bringing lots of batteries for your technical stuff, be itiPhones, cameras, whatever.
But what other sort of practical gear for a trip to Africa or in particular the migrationwould you suggest to a traveler?
I think most people would say a sense of humor.
(46:11):
I would say a little bit of patience, a little bit of realism and listen to what yourtravel advisor tells you.
Yeah.
I've spent a lot of time over the years, you know, don't talking to go away traveladvisors.
They know an awful lot.
It's always a bit more difficult for me when I come in to find something new that I canadd to their world of knowledge.
But listen to what you're told so that you get the right expectations.
(46:33):
So the traveler arrives with
the right approach to what's going on.
Clothing wise, neutral clothing, we do laundry, we tend to do it unless the weather'sreally bad overnight.
So you don't need to overpack, leave the high heels at home, bring a hat, bring yoursunscreen.
Binos are always a good idea.
(46:55):
Yeah, having a set of binoculars just gives you a little bit of extra detail.
And for the photographers, I know we said we wouldn't talk about camera equipment, butalso
zoom out as well as in a lot of startup photographers making make the mistake of justalways having the lens at its maximum.
You know, if you've got a fisheye lens with the the wilderness going through, you'll get amuch better photograph.
(47:18):
And that's a better idea of how many thousands there are.
If you've got a wide angle lens, so know, Right?
Yeah.
So hat, comfortable shoes, neutral colors, sunscreen.
Don't forget to talk about malaria medication.
I don't take we don't take
on a regular, on a full time basis out here.
There's very little around, but always talk to your doctor and always listen to yourphysician.
(47:42):
Sorry.
Is that the right anyway?
You're your medical practitioner and listen, listen, and read the notes that you get fromyour travel advisor more than once and not just when you get on the plane.
Exactly.
Now on that note, James's advice is from a local who lives there, but as he did clarifythere, we cannot officially give you any medical advice.
(48:03):
Please speak to your to your travel doctor or your local or your personal physician forthe latest information on what you should and should not take.
From a water point of view, drinking water, we always recommend you bring or buy whenyou're there a reusable like
Yeti equivalent type of bottle, I would assume that drinking water is easily available forguests when they're in your lodges, tent or otherwise.
(48:31):
Yeah, so what we do we okay, so just to give you a little bit of context, this, we havethe most sophisticated solar setup in Tanzania.
So it's phenomenal.
People told us that we will weigh over spec, it turns out that we're actually the winnersbecause we're so much money.
At the same time as that we actually have water filtration.
So all three of our lodges, will be four by July, have borehole water, which is more than150, 150 feet down.
(48:58):
But we triple filter, excuse me.
triple filter that water and then put it through reverse osmosis.
So the water in the taps is triple filtered.
It's safe, but it has a little bit of a taste to it.
So we then put it through the reverse osmosis.
We have drink stations in all of the lodges and all the tenty camps.
So big refillable bottles and we issue Lamala bottles to every guest.
(49:21):
Okay then, so if they don't have a bottle they can expect to get one on arrival at one ofyour properties.
Yep.
Yep, yep.
We would encourage them if they stay in three camps not to take three home because thatkind of does away with the idea of saving the planet by not having plastic water bottles.
Just so that you know, we still have people arriving with plastic water bottles.
(49:42):
So we collect them, bring them back into Russia and we turn them into I'm not saying howold you are, but I'm old enough to remember those old fashioned school desks where you sat
two people on it with a bench seat and a bench back and a bench seat and then just a
platform, we turn we return X other people's x plastic bottles into those and gives theminto local community schools.
(50:08):
So yeah, it's a large part of what we do.
But our water is, as I say, it's put through all those processes, and we tested everymonth in a in a certified lab.
it's it's good.
It's clean.
Okay, so last question before we have to sign off here is a cost question.
(50:29):
So when someone comes to visit your camps, obviously, which is what we're highlightingtoday, but just in general, if they choose another property or whatever, and we're talking
migration here, other than their accommodation costs, are there additional fees to see themigration, i.e.
enter the park?
So you pay X dollars for your accommodation, and then there's a park fee when associatedwith the migration experience?
(50:52):
So all the national parks, so whether it's the conservation area and Gorogoro, Tarangiri,Manjara, Serengeti charge in two ways.
They charge a bed night fee, a park entrance and a concession fee, some kind of concessionfee.
But that will all be included in the invoice that you receive from your supplier locally,but it's passed on to consumers.
(51:13):
So you don't have to pay on site.
Right.
So again, when someone books here for a migration experience with the model of the costthat they will receive will be inclusive of taxes, etc.
So from our point of view, we include the accommodation, if it's a fly-in, sorry, the gamepackage, so the game drives, laundry, I think in North America you still call them well
(51:41):
drinks, house drinks.
health strengths.
Yeah.
So local local beers, acceptable spirits.
But if you want Grey Goose, then it might come with a premium price.
So premium level drinks, spa treatments you pay on site, although they can be pre bookedif you wish, and any tipping.
Other than that, if you pay your money in 2025 for holiday in 2026, when you arrive,technically you almost never needs, well, you don't need to put your hand in your pocket.
(52:11):
Right, what I was gonna say is for the most part, excluding things like spa and tippingand top shelf drinks, the price you pay is an all-inclusive rate.
Yep, 100%.
And if we're talking to the travel, if we're talking to the travel trade here, one of thethings I've been talking to people about for a long, long time is one of the reasons why
(52:33):
safaris are attractive to the travel trade is A, they're a bit complicated.
B, Africa is a little bit scary.
But also, the travel trade realizes more, larger percent out of every dollar spent onsafari than just about anywhere on the planet.
So if I come, if it's done, you and I were meeting in New York next week.
(52:53):
We wouldn't book a transfer.
We just jump in a yellow cap.
We wouldn't book the hotels to anybody.
We just book it direct.
And if we did book it through a travel agent, have you, they wouldn't make any money if wewanted to go and see Hamilton or go up the empire States building.
We're on Safari because it's an all-inclusive package.
There is commission were available for travel advisors the whole way.
(53:15):
Okay, so James, I'd like to thank you very much for your time today.
Even under the even under the storm and the lightning strikes you experienced why we'rechatting away here.
Very African or Africa, they say, Africa, to say the least.
Again, it's a naturally it's a fascinating destination, East Africa in general.
(53:38):
But obviously the migration is one of those world famous
events happenings that draws people to East Africa that in Goro Goro, the Maasai itself,Mount Kili, of course.
So I hope everyone today has understood how it works, how the Malo can be your base forit.
(54:01):
And in some instances, it can be a mobile base with the mobile tent at camp that James hasmentioned as well.
Some inside tips and tricks on photography.
it was all here really.
So the next thing to do is give one of GoWay's destination specialists a call.
As James mentioned, they're very, very experienced.
James is off out here in person at our shows, but also he's training our staff often.
(54:28):
and as he mentioned, that's, know, he finds it difficult at times to come up with newinformation cause our guys and girls and people know so much about it.
you
We've got the perfect resource here with GoAge destination specialists and of coursebacked up by the on-ground expertise as you can hopefully ascertain by James' comments and
(54:49):
information today.
So James, is there anything else you'd like to say to our listening audience before we saygoodbye?
I'm good, I want to say thank you to you, Don.
It's always a pleasure chatting.
And everybody else that's out there, thanks for signing up and thanks for expressing aninterest in Lamala Viagraway.
They're good partners to us.
(55:11):
Yeah, you are too.
Okay, guys.
Thank you very much for your time today.
We appreciate it and we will talk to you soon.
See ya.
Goodbye.
One of the most sought after experiences for wildlife and nature enthusiasts, the GreatMigration is the ever moving circular migration of over a million animals across the
Serengeti Mara ecosystem.
The constant movement of columns of wildebeest joined by a host of companions follow anage old route in search of grazing and water.
(00:25):
After carving in the southern part of Tanzania's
The animals journey through the Serengeti in a clockwise direction towards the Masai Marain Kenya before returning once again to begin the cycle.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaie and welcome to the Goaie Pro Travel Talepodcast.
(00:52):
Travel far and travel often.
Welcome everyone.
Today I'm speaking to James Hi, who is coming from, actually James, where are you?
Are you in Kenya or Tanzania at the moment?
I've just got home.
So I'm in Tanzania in a little village called Usa River, which is about halfway betweenArusha town, which is the jump off point for most safaris in Northern Tanzania and
(01:18):
Kilimanjaro International Airport.
So I'm on the foothills of an active volcano, Mount Meru.
We've got the most almighty storm hovering overhead.
So a second ago we had a thunder clap that made me think that something was fallingthrough the roof and the dogs all started barking.
So if I get interrupted by some weather, my apologies.
(01:39):
No problems, there we go, very authentic.
James, I'm just going to read from here.
James is a leading figure in the African tourism industry with over 15 years of extensiveexperience across countries like Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa and beyond.
Also Morocco, the Seychelles as well.
(02:00):
And you've just, I just did quick reading.
Now I know James, we've met a few times.
James joins us always at our Africa event that GOA runs in the US and Canada over theyears.
And hopefully he'll be joining us again this year in 2025 in Canada.
More information about that coming up soon.
But I understand, James, you were elected chairperson of the African Travel and TourismAssociation in 24.
(02:22):
Is that true?
Yeah.
So I became chair in October.
It's a two year position.
And in all honesty, Dom, bit of a shock.
I've always looked up to and remind everybody in Atta and I never thought that I thoughtit was too posh to let someone like me in.
thought that I thought they only let you know, clever people in that could do a lot.
(02:43):
But they came to me at in Daba last year and said, you up for it?
I like Yeah, I like a challenge.
And I firmly believe in Atta as an institution.
It does a lot of good work for the travel trade around the world.
And basically it exchanges information.
It's just a useful place, useful thing to be a member of so you can talk to other peopleand learn from them and learn the lessons and not have to reinvent the wheel.
(03:09):
It's good.
It's a nice organization.
Yeah.
well, congratulations from Gowee on that appointment.
Now you're also the head sales and marketing manager of LaMala Camps and also Adrift.
And LaMala is an authentic collection.
(03:30):
I'm going to read from here.
It's an authentic collection of luxurious lodges, intimate villas and classic tented campswith location in Tanzania's Serengeti, Ngorogoro and
Teringiri regions as well as Uganda's River Nile.
So we'll talk a bit more about Lamala camps in partnership with the migration, which isactually what we're here to talk about today.
(03:54):
But can you give us a bit of a quick synopsis of Adrift?
What does Adrift do?
So Adrift is our adventure brand.
So we have one property, have one Lamala camp, sorry, we have one Lamala lodge in themiddle of the river Nile in Uganda.
It's on possibly the last surviving piece of primary forest in the southern part of theriver Nile.
(04:16):
So ecologically, it's really important.
We've got a beautiful property in the middle of the river.
Only way to get there is by canoe.
It's surrounded by white water, as the name suggests.
But in order to conserve that piece of primary forest, we also have a four-star propertyon the mainland and an overland campsite and an activity company.
(04:37):
So for those of you that are aware of Victoria Falls, we run whitewater rafting at five orsix different levels according to how exciting people want it.
We have ATVs, horses to ride, mountain bikes to go along the banks of the river, and thetallest bungee tower in East Africa.
So we have the Adrift brand.
that satisfies people that are spending a little bit less money perhaps, but still want togo to this pristine environment and enjoy it.
(05:04):
We've covered who you are to some degree, for our listeners, they're probably picking up aBritish accent.
just a quick little pre-Lamala, pre-Adrift.
What's your history with being in Africa, I guess, for one of the better statements?
Yeah, so born and raised in London.
So my accent used to be a lot more goblimey than it is now.
(05:26):
So I a proper company.
Born within the sound of bo bells.
But I moved out to Africa having studied at university, having been a stockbrokeractually, originally studied at university, and I came to Africa to teach at high school.
So I taught a mixture of English language, English literature, and sports, which is a bitof unusual mix.
(05:48):
in Kenya, but I also ran out with them programs.
So I did a lot of work with the Kenya Wildlife Service for young kids, not just from theschool that I was teaching at, which segued into working, running a volunteer organization
that brought young teachers out to work on a volunteer basis in Africa.
And each of those career evolutions brought me closer and closer to tourism.
(06:12):
And I spent when I first lived outside Kenya, I was living for 14 years.
in a house with no electricity and no running water, collecting water and a little bit ofsolar panel.
So I was living very much the dream of being in Africa.
then I'm and I guided I did a lot of things in that period of about a 20 year period.
And then I met my wife.
(06:33):
And anybody that knows me knows how proud I am of my wife.
Full disclosure, she's my boss.
We used to run a large company that the Marla was part of on a joint CEO basis.
that restructured reorganized, she stayed, I left.
When I came back, I had to acknowledge the reality, which is that when you work with yourwife, then it's not very different from being at home.
(07:00):
She's the CEO and I'm responsible for the revenue side, bringing the money in and forcreating and popularizing the brand.
Okay, is she a fellow Brit or is she a born and bred African?
I see this is where it comes interesting for the Galway tribe.
She's a, she's a detribe tribalized Aussie.
(07:22):
So she's actually a reverse migrant.
So she is a Western Australian Australian that moved to South Africa, which is where wemet.
whereas most South Africans from Cape Town are going to Perth, she went the other way.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, she kind of, she went the other way.
Yeah, she's a reverse migrant and actually with like to Perth on Friday.
(07:45):
Nice.
Yeah.
For those who may not know, there was, I'm not sure if it's still going on, but there wasa large movement of South Africans across to WA a while ago.
So there were lots of South Africans in Australia and obviously a few going, as James justmentioned the other way.
Now you said you're off to Perth on Friday, but again, we will get to the migration.
(08:05):
Don't worry.
But this is quite fascinating.
You've just come back from a trip to the Congo.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
Well, Congo Brazzaville says two Congos.
Okay.
There's the, there's Congo Kinshasa DRC, which lives in the public imagination quite highbecause it's always in the news for bad news.
(08:26):
it's the place where a lot of the fighting is going on in the east over middle rights andwhat have you post the genocide in Rwanda.
A lot of nastiness.
I've been into that area.
the other side from Rwanda and Uganda, but we went to Congo Brazzaville, which is a lotfurther west.
incredibly safe.
(08:47):
We didn't see anybody having to guard anything.
I think you could leave your car open on the streets.
People incredibly nice.
And we went on a bit of a recce trip, see if we ever want to do anything in thatparticular area.
So we went up into the north into the rainforest, tracking gorillas, west, what they callWestern lowland gorillas.
That's the third kind of gorilla we've been to see chimpanzees, mandrels, forestelephants.
(09:12):
But there's no tourist infrastructure.
So we were literally walking through almost waist deep swamp water to get to these openareas where you see all these forest elephants and forest buffalos congregating.
We had the most amazing time, but I've got to say at 58 years old, I was probably morecomfortable doing it when I was 25.
I thought my age by the time we got back.
(09:35):
we just spent three weeks.
I turned 58 on New Year's Eve.
And Lee's birthday, I won't tell you how old she was, but it was her birthday on thethird.
So this was a bit of a birthday recce explore adventure for a couple of old folks.
Right.
Now, I did a bit of not in person, sadly enough, but I some sort of quick research forGoAid because we were we are looking at that area as well as opening up.
(10:03):
But then we can chat off air and get some inside scoop.
Yeah.
With you having been there on the ground.
That's that's pretty cool.
So as promised to you and to our listeners, we are here to talk about the migration.
Now,
I want still any thunder here.
(10:25):
This is probably one of the, as I mentioned in the intro, this is probably one of thebiggest attractions for East Africa.
And a lot of people don't really know the details about it.
Of course, everyone has probably seen on all the famous documentaries, Nat Geo andeveryone, everyone else in their dog and brother with some video of the famous crossing of
(10:46):
the rivers by the wildebeest, but there's much more to it than that.
So can you talk us through
what the migration actually is in its entirety.
Cool.
So if anybody says to me, what is the migration?
I'm to give you a factual answer.
It's about 1.5 to 1.7 million wildebeest, Thompson gazelle and zebra, massive zebra orplain zebra migrating in a clockwise fashion between the Mara and Serengeti ecosystems,
(11:15):
straddling the Kenya Tanzania border.
So, and followed by lions and predators that will eat off the factory.
That's right.
If we're talking about the travel trade, my recommendation is that for most prospectiveclients, what the wildebeest migration is, is lots and lots of wildebeest running across
(11:39):
the bush, getting to a river, looking at it, thinking about it, usually the zebras jump infirst, the wildebeest follow and then certain number of them get eaten by a crocodile.
Now, if that is what a prospective client perceives as
migration.
that's the image it conjures up for them and that's what they want, then as a traveltrade, we have to ask people some very honest questions.
(12:05):
When can you travel?
because there is only truthfully one river in the entire ecosystem where that happens.
And that's the Mara River that flows through the Masai Mara in Kenya across the border andexit through the Serengeti into Lake and towards Lake Victoria.
(12:26):
And that is only right up in the north of that ecosystem.
And those river crossings happen between maybe as early as July, August and September eachyear.
So if you have a client that says, can only travel in November, but I want to see theriver crossings, they're not going to see it.
So either you have to prepare them for what they will see in November.
(12:49):
And in November, they will be in the Western Central side of the Serengeti moving downtowards the South, where there are no rivers, where they spread out a lot more.
And at this time of year, just starting to give birth slightly later, you're going to seea different thing.
And as is always the case in tourism,
we have to give people the right expectations rather than ask them to adjust their, sorry,we have to give them the right expectations before they travel, rather than try and adjust
(13:17):
their expectations when they arrive.
So the Wilderbeest happens year round, because believe it or not, I sometimes get asked,when is the migration?
Well, there's 1.5 million of them, there's always that.
So it's a question of where they are in that cycle.
So to talk you through the cycle.
If we start with those river crossings, which can be as early as July, July, August,September, that's in the north.
(13:44):
And in the area around we have a property there Lamala Korea Hills Lodge.
have a tent camp up there at the same time Lamala Mara.
Then after those three months, it tails off and starts trekking south.
It'll come through to the central Serengeti on the western side.
By November, it'll be
(14:04):
heading south into the southern short grass plains right down by Lake Masseck and LakeNdutu.
By January, they're giving birth.
By the time we get through to July, they'll be starting to head north through the easternside in a hurry.
And the whole cycle completes and runs again.
So the wildebeests behave differently in different places.
(14:28):
Now, for those who are listening, you just heard James explain the circuit.
For those who are watching this, we would have put up an overlay of that just to give itcontext in regards to where James is referring to.
so for those listening, I said, you may go and look at the video version so you can get abetter understanding of what James is discussing there.
So as you mentioned, I think most people, again, would probably associate the migrationwith those river crossings and the big crocks, you know, taking advantage of
(14:58):
unfortunate crosses.
We've discussed when to see that particular time.
Now I have seen video of travelers in their four wheel drives looking at the crossing.
It seems to be at times at least very busy in respect not just to the wildebeest and thezebra but people watching this.
Is it just one spot that you can watch this crossing or do the let me backtrack on that.
(15:24):
Do the animals cross at the same spot every year or do they sort of
different spots on the river based on the air.
So good question.
So the Mara River in the area in the north, is divided by two names, Cockatindy and Lamaiare the two names that people might hear for those geographies.
There are actually historically 11 different areas where they cross.
(15:46):
So you can imagine you've got a river with steep banks, because when that river flows, itflows hard, so it erodes quickly.
So we've got very steep banks, but the World of Beasts break through those banks andcreate what we call chutes.
So you've got a break in the bank and a steep slope that goes down that allows them to getdown and out on the other side.
(16:06):
Now, historically, there are zero through 10, so 11 different sites where they mightcongregate to cross.
So it becomes a bottleneck, hence the drama.
That's why it concentrates into these narrow, narrow lanes.
And everybody has to jump in almost literally no more than three or four at a time goingdown through these shoots.
(16:26):
And you might have 100,000 guys.
That's what creates the drama and the dust.
and alerts the crocodiles because they can hear the disturbance in there and the hooves,the vibrations through the ground.
So what would typically happen is that the herds will arrive in an area three or fourkilometers back from the river crossings and the brave few will go down, they'll look at
(16:51):
it.
They're quite scaredy cat animals.
So you know, if something breaks a tweak, then they all run away.
And they'll go back to
another comma or so back and they'll match again and they'll have another look place andit'll go backwards and forwards.
Ebs and flows, ebs and flows.
They might go to shoot number three and then half an hour later be at shoot number five.
(17:12):
So the drivers always trying to anticipate which crossing they'll actually use.
And then finally, usually a zebra because zebra is a little bit braver and they've workedout the first one to usually get ahead.
It's got three.
It's the old thing.
They'll be at the back of the line.
So usually a zebra jumps in first and then thousands of these things will then follow themuntil one gets spooked and turns around and then they'll all turn around and it all starts
(17:41):
all over again.
And what that means is that there's a lot of anticipation from the guides point of view.
There's a lot of talk in Tanzania in particular about how to manage the numbers ofvehicles there because over tourism is a very common phrase to be found in tourism at the
moment.
there are an awful lot of people wanting, as you say, to see those, the drama of thosewill to be set.
(18:05):
so Tanzania is not perfect yet, but the, the, the local authority are trying to manageguide behavior.
So as a, not to influence the world of peace behavior, it's very easy to split them andstop the crossing.
but also be give tourists what they want, which is to see the drama.
(18:26):
And each year those those measures are evolving a little bit further.
vehicles are no longer allowed to park on the river banks and wait for the crossing.
They have to park slightly further away from the river to allow the wildebeest to maketheir own choice.
And then they're allowed, once they've started crossing, they're allowed to go to theriver to take photos.
(18:49):
So if I'm sorry, sorry, go on.
No, after you.
And if I'm honest, I used to be a high school teacher.
So I'm all in favor of congratulating the government of Tanzania and the managementauthority for trying and experimenting because there is no established method for managing
this.
So if I'm a traveler coming to you or to a go a destination specialist here and I want tosee the crossing Obviously, it's it's nature.
(19:14):
So, know, the world will be not going to be there on the third of whenever it you know Atnine o'clock and do it.
You know, they will decide when they're ready to cross.
So is there Let me use a completely different example, but a similar situation when youvisit Iceland most hotels have a
Northern Lights advisory or prediction so you can get an idea of when you may see theNorthern Lights.
(19:38):
When you go and you specifically want to see this crossing, can you narrow it down to bethere at the right time or is there a chance you could be there over those two or three
days and in turn do you need to allow two or three days to hit when they cross?
Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we went up into the Arctic Circle to see to try and seethe Northern Lights and sadly we failed and we logged into a lot of those apps.
(20:03):
They're a lot more predictable than a Wildebeest.
Because well, the Northern Lights comes down to atmospheric pressure and time of year andclarity of prediction of how many clouds are around.
Wildebeest are a lot more capricious.
In terms of maximizing opportunity of seeing World of Beasts crossing, which I thinkeffectively is what we're talking about.
(20:26):
And if we're talking to the trade, we're talking about minimalizing chances of someonecoming home and saying, dear Don, you did explain to me this is a natural phenomenon, but
I didn't see it.
And I paid all this money and I didn't see it.
And I understand that.
I experienced that in Norway, sorry, in Finland.
I think the way to look at it is that the World of Beasts
(20:48):
Migration is driven by access to water for drinking.
Access to water for drinking is driven by rainfall.
Rainfall is sorry, anybody that doesn't believe in it, but climate change is a reality.
It used to be much more predictable in East Africa than it is now.
The storm we've got now is out of season.
(21:08):
So if it is vitally important to a client that they see a wild beast crossing, what I sayto people is choose three nights where
the maps and the experts tell you it would normally be in a normal year.
Right.
and then choose two nights in central Serengeti.
(21:30):
If you imagine that the map we were just talking about where you've got an oval shape,this is the rough shape of the path that they follow.
They're in a hurry going down here and up here.
They're more sedentary here and more sedentary here.
If you spend three nights where they should be here in August, if you're in central fortwo nights beforehand, that's where either they will be if they're late or where they'll
(21:53):
be if they're early.
Okay.
And it's never bad time because Serengeti has got wildlife year round.
There's a bit of a delay between James and I, so we apologize for talking over each otherat times.
Sorry.
Come on, James.
apologies.
So the other advantage of structure of structure and itinerary that way is that thewildebeest can dominate your entire experience.
(22:18):
It's almost the wood for the So when you're by the river, then two things, the wildebeest,there's so many of them, thousand of them making such noise and drinking so much water and
eating so much grass and followed by lions.
it actually pushes less numerous species away from them.
(22:40):
So it's very unlikely that you'll see much in the way of bushbuck, dick dick, dikers,other antelopes, when the wildebeest are marching through because there's just so many of
them.
And even if you're there, you've got a vista of 100,000 wildebeest in front of you, whichis 400,000 pairs of legs, the chance of spotting
(23:02):
The reed buck in the corner is very, slim, they get lost.
So if you structure it that way, you maximize and do your three nights where they shouldbe two nights where they might be.
Not only do you maximize your chance of seeing the wildebeest crossings of the river, butyou also will see a wider variety of species.
Okay, so what I was going to say before is that was segueing nicely into the fact that asyou mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, that the migrations and ongoing cycle,
(23:30):
it never stops.
But there are certain points which have been made famous, the river crossing.
But to your point just then, if you can't make it at that particular time of the year foryour own personal travel reasons, that's not to say that you will not witness and
experience the migration in its grandeur at other times of the year.
And probably, as you just mentioned there,
(23:51):
I can't remember the months you mentioned, when the wildebeest and zebra are calving orgiving birth, that what I would assume would be a pretty good time to see the predators in
action, not the crocs, obviously, the lions, cheetahs, et cetera, preying upon thenewborns.
(24:11):
So today's a great example.
We I've just received photographs from the Bush from one of our couple of our guidesactually, where the world of beast mating strategy is all to give birth in a shorter
period of time as possible.
(24:32):
So they all mate at the same time, they all rot at the same time, they all carve at thesame time.
The idea being that if they drop,
quarter of a million individual babies on the ground in about four weeks that there aretoo many for the lions to eat.
Okay.
So number one, they all time, they synchronize their birth.
(24:57):
Number two, they're the most versatile animals you'll ever see.
In addition to being one of the ugliest things you'll ever see, only a mother could love awildebeest.
But they can also, a female wildebeest can midway through birth, cross your legs, stop andrun away.
Yep, they can arrest childbirth with front legs out of the wildebeest already.
(25:21):
and they can run away from a life.
And in that southern part of Serengeti where they literally they spread out.
So you imagine it's not long lines of migrating animals, like a wagon train going acrossthe old west, which is what it's like when they're in the north in the south they spread
out.
So you've got these massive long planes.
Serengeti means the land of the endless plain, just dots and dots and dots and millions ofthem.
(25:46):
You can't comprehend how many and they're all giving birth around you.
They're not the best mothers in the whole world.
So our guides have to be very, very careful because if a baby pops out and the first thingit sees is the car, it will imprint on the car and follow the car.
Really?
and the mom will walk off.
(26:06):
And that's it.
Wow.
Because the calf will be abandoned to its fate.
Now in the southern part of the Serengeti, which is as I say, these short grass plains, soit's long, flat rolling plains, great country for cheetah.
So our best cheetah sightings are in the southern part of the Serengeti at this time ofyear, because you've got a baby wildebeest vulnerable, just given birth that the cheetahs
(26:32):
can take down.
So you might not have the crocodiles as you have in the north.
Jane, I'm not sure if you can hear me, but you just froze on my screen.
I think we had some lightning.
Sorry.
That's right, problem, no problems.
Imagine cheetah are long, fast animals with a big long tail that can run anything downthere, the fastest land mammal.
(26:55):
What they don't need is broken ground and things to trip them up and trees to run around.
They need straight lines and firm soil.
That's what we've got in the Southern Seven Giddy.
So that's where cheetah love to live.
Imagine this week, all of a sudden there's a couple hundred thousand wildebeest arrive,giving birth to small, very, very tasty animals that not very steady on their legs.
(27:16):
It's like a Sunday buffet in a Hong Kong hotel.
Can imagine.
So we might not have the crocodiles that we have in the North, but we do have the cheetahsin the South.
Extra advantage, if I'm going to be really honest, is a financial one.
everywhere in the world, peak travel season coincides with North American and NorthwestEuropean school holidays, July, August and September.
(27:38):
Fs go through the roof, traveling at the moment.
Traveling this month is probably cheaper than any other times.
There's no other people there.
and you know, we've had a little bit of rain around, now at the moment in our post thegreen season, I'm sure there's lots of, photographers around.
I'll ask you, I'd ask all the questions.
(27:58):
I'd ask all the photographers question, would you rather take a photograph of a brown lionor a leopard or a cheetah against the green background or a brown dusty one?
know which one I am.
And after a little bit of rain, so this time of year.
where it's quite lush and green, which is why the wildebeest are there because they're alltrying to get fat and fed before they start heading north again.
(28:22):
They're trying to get on the calories.
That's why they're there.
You've got these great photographic opportunities.
You've got wonderful cheetah interaction and lions and the hyenas that follow.
But you've also got fewer people and you've got cheaper access.
So I was actually gonna bring this up on the photography front.
(28:43):
So obviously, well, this lead into actually into a few logistical questions from your sideof the world.
So photography or experiencing the migration wherever it may be will be from a vehicle, Iwould believe.
Are there any foot safaris that get you close to the migration or is that sort ofsomething that's too dangerous?
(29:05):
Not so much dangerous, just something that we don't do because it's not, there's too manyvehicles around.
We run our walking safaris from our property in the eastern side of Sahangiri, so in theMalanay Nuki.
And we run from Curia Hills in the north.
But we run it outside that peak season when there are lots of cars running around.
(29:28):
And those things, I mean, we can't discount the possibility of a stampede that runs youover.
It's very unlikely.
But the walking safaris we run are more about seeing animals at a distance, butrecognising the spore on the ground, tracking things and talking about grasses and shrubs
(29:49):
and how the environment comes together as an environment, as a biome, rather than tryingto get close to things.
in all honesty, wildebeest tend to, they have a lot of hangers on, not just the lions andthe hyenas and the leopards.
But know insect life and what have you for anything that gets stirred up when they'rewalking past wouldn't be my choice.
(30:11):
Fair enough.
Okay, so nine times out of ten, at least in the migration experience, it'll be in avehicle.
So can you just give a quick description of what the vehicles are like?
And I would assume by now most of the animals, unless it's in their face, they just theydon't really recognize the vehicles as a threat or as an obstacle.
(30:31):
So firstly, our vehicles are built to cope with the fact that our roads get quite rough.
The reason they get quite rough isn't because they're not maintained.
It's because when we do have rain, we have significant rain here followed by significantdry periods.
So they go from very muddy to very dusty and all the erosion comes with it.
So the vehicles have to be robust to start with.
(30:54):
In the past, lots and lots of Land Rovers, increasingly more and more Toyotas.
so mostly Toyota Land Cruiser, which are converted.
so depending on what style of Safari people book, and I'll talk about that in a second,people will either be in our case in a closed Land Cruiser, which will have six seats.
(31:18):
So, in aircraft terms, they all have windows that they're all window seats.
So there's no middle row.
You don't have to fight with anybody like this.
and what we call a pop-up roof.
So it's a sun roof that lifts up with a piece of shade netting to keep the sun off.
So you stand up to either, so you can either sit or stand up when you're driving and standup or sit down to take photographs out the window.
(31:46):
That's a closed vehicle or we have completely open vehicles which are just a six pointlike a roll cage.
Again, with a tarpaulin over the top.
keep the sun off where you sit down at about I'd say about seven and half feet above theground and you can take your photographs in there but again only six seats and then the
(32:11):
driver and an extra passenger if you're traveling in group of seven.
Right.
So if you're a photographer, be professional, avid, or it's your trip of a lifetime andyou've just got your camera there.
Access to taking photos, as you mentioned, there's no middle seats.
So everyone will be able to use their zoom lens, which I would highly recommend to getthat shot.
(32:33):
And with safety always in mind, people will be in positions to get good photos based onwhat's happening in front of them.
So again, you won't be next door to a wildebeest.
or anything like that, but you will definitely have advantageous positioning to photographand or video.
Yeah, and we train our guides to be very conscious of where they stop the car in relationto the wildlife.
(33:00):
So obviously, you've got three and three, so they'll they'll alternate who gets the bestside as it were, and they'll often move around a site.
It says a group of lines, for example, by a waterhole, then they'll park with the lines onthe right, go for a drive, come in in a different angle and allow the car to be on the
left.
But that doesn't it doesn't mean to see the you can't see
(33:21):
Yeah.
If you're not an expert, that makes sense.
Yeah, so that's number one also to take into account the light.
Because you're never going to get a good photograph without the right being light beingnicely positioned, which is the advantage of working with a let's just call it a more
professional guide rather than somebody that's just driving people around.
is a route guiding it guiding is a profession.
(33:42):
It's not just a question of driving around and go look, there's interpreting that linesbehavior.
is talking about the fact that the elephant balls got
sweat gland behind his ear that's leaking, which means it is likely to be a little bitmore frisky.
And making sure that your client not only knows that but is in the right position torecord it for posterity and create his memory.
(34:04):
What I would say is that for a lot of people, most wildlife photographs are taken fromabout six foot five.
So changing the angle and taking photographs from low and up high actually is what makes aphotograph.
okay.
Interesting.
So again, we can advise if there are any photographers out there, like I'm one of them.
(34:24):
If you have any specific requests to again, it's nature.
nothing can be guaranteed, of course.
But if you have a particular animal, bug, bird, whatever, because obviously Africaanywhere is also fantastic for birding.
Actually, since we are talking migration, is there a following?
(34:45):
flock of birds of all descriptions with the migration or so what's the bird life inrespect to the migration like?
So oxpeckers and egrets and the like, the insects which are stirred up by the wildebeestpassing through are prevalent.
Other than that, most other things tend to go their own way.
(35:08):
Other of course than the eagles and the vultures that clean up the mess left behind by thedead wildebeest.
We've discussed naturally, because it's Africa and it's the migration, wildlife, wildlife,wildlife.
But if someone is focusing their trip to East Africa around the migration, now I knowthere are cultural experiences within East Africa that goes without saying, but as part of
(35:34):
the migration, is there anything cultural that people may see or is that something thatyou would do as a separate experience on top of the migration?
I don't think there's anything culturally directly linked to the border beast migration.
Okay, so the world of this migration occurs in Maasai areas, both in Kenya and Tantan,Kenya and Tantan inside of the border.
(35:57):
And in all honesty, as, as pastoralists as cow herders, the the Maasai tend to avoid tryto avoid the migration because their cows can get lost and they compete for the same
resources cows.
and waterbeasts eat the same grass and they drink the same water.
So I don't think there's huge significance from the from a mass icon of the other than thedegree of inconvenience, maybe.
(36:22):
The other thing which is true, especially in Tanzania is that the Serengeti National Parkdoesn't have Masai living or Wakuria or any other tribes living inside the Serengeti
because it's a area.
So in the town on the Tanzania side of the border, most cultural experiences
by necessity are conducted outside the national park.
(36:45):
So for example, we do a lot of work in Tarrangiri National Park with the youngest Maasaichieftain in northern Tanzania, guy called Chief LeBowler, a great guy, all in for female
education.
And we run a lot of educational projects with him.
But that's on the way into the park, rather than something you do from the property.
(37:05):
What we do have is we have lots of Maasai staff from his community working
for us in the various properties.
So there's no opportunity to go to a Boma, for example, at Nannukia or at Currie Hills,but there are staff there from Masai communities that are very happy to share their
knowledge and enthusiasm for how they live.
(37:27):
Lovely.
Okay.
So on that note, you mentioned before types of safaris you could have.
So could you give us a rundown of the type of safaris in respect to the migration that youoffer?
And by extension, the accommodation choices that someone can look forward to if they workwith, look forward to work with, with Lamala.
(37:50):
Sure.
So I think the first thing to look at is the fact that there are two ways of gettingaround and 10, so two ways of getting around Northern Tanzania and to the migration.
So either you can go on what we call a drive safari, which would mean driving out ofArusha, going to maybe Tarangiri, maybe Maniara, into Ngorongoro and then carrying on into
(38:14):
the Serengeti.
If you were to take that kind of driving Safari, then you would be by necessity by legalrights in a closed vehicle, as I described earlier with the pop roof.
That's because we have to drive, but you can't drive on the open road at 80 90 kilometersan hour.
So that's that's that's variety number one.
(38:35):
Second option actually is to fly between those locations.
So you'd fly in a small aircraft run.
locally here by very, very good, very safe companies, the safest airplane in the world.
Toyota Grand Caravan, sorry, Cessna Grand Caravan.
Toyota haven't started doing that yet.
And you would fly into nearest airstrip and then somebody like the Marla will pick you upin an open vehicle with a guide that will look for you look after you for your the time
(39:03):
that you're in that camp.
There are advantages of both and disadvantages of both.
I way I looked like to look at it is that if you spend
10 days, 12 days with one guide, you know him very, well.
So you have a greater understanding of what it is like to live in Tanzania from a localpoint of view.
(39:23):
You have a different kind of relationship and those relationships can be very strong andlast for years.
They change people's lives.
On the other hand, if you fly in, you'll be guided from a person that's always in thatarea, perhaps knows a little bit deeper, but you won't know them as well.
Right.
And then there's the cost implication.
flying safari will be a more costly solution than a drive solution.
(39:49):
Right.
But a flying solution will also benefit in the fact that you now this has a plus and anegative to it.
You get around a bit quicker.
So if time is an issue, the flying will help in that respect.
But as a ex-overland driver and loving driving, driving around also, I think gives you abetter insight into the country, wherever it may be.
Yeah.
(40:09):
Obviously flying.
think think that again, like
100%.
If you drive everywhere, you see the village and how people live day to day.
If you just fly, you go from one bubble to the next bubble, which is a tourism product toa tourism product.
Yeah.
So, but again, each has its pros and cons.
again, speak to the GoWay destination specialist based on budget and time available.
(40:33):
And you can even do a combination.
can fly some portions, drive others.
Now in respect to when you, sorry, go on James.
So then the other set of choices are that within Lamala, for example, we run two layers ofaccommodation.
So we have two layers to the brand.
So we have Lamala tented camps, which are as the name suggests, a canvas tent, reallynice, large enough for two double beds in it.
(41:00):
And an ensuite bathroom with hot water and internet charging facilities, et cetera, etcetera.
But it's a tent.
It has a wooden floor that might be a little bit creaky.
It is you'll hear the lion outside maybe a little bit clearer.
And you will sit by the fire outside talking to other travelers with a traditionalgenotype before you go and have lunch inside a mess tent.
(41:26):
Now, we also have Lamala lodges, are sometimes maybe a bit of canvas, but a little bitmore permanent, they've got more facilities.
Our lodges all have
either an outdoor bathtub or a plunge pool outside.
They will have outdoor showers as well as indoor showers.
They've got a mini bar, you've got a kettle so you can make a tea or your coffee in aFrench press.
(41:49):
They've just got more facilities.
Now, they also come at different price points a bit like the drive and the fly safari,which means that they appeal to people with different price points.
Or as you say, with the drive fly, you can actually mix it so you could go for example,
Tented camp, tent camp, lodge to spoil yourself rotten for the last three days.
(42:15):
Or you could do it the other way around and say, what I really want to do is I want tohave lodges, but I want to see what a tent camp is like because I saw the movies.
I, when I was a kid, I read Willard Price and safari adventure.
And I want to know what it is to sleep in a tent with a lion 30, 30 meters away roaringand making the tent vibrate.
(42:35):
yeah, I,
I like to look at it, the tenty camps are little bit more authentically adventure.
Yeah.
And the lodges are just a little bit more luxury.
I don't like that word luxury, but a little bit more comfortable and cosy.
You get a bit more spoiled.
More choice for dinner.
For sure.
So a key point there would be that like the ways of getting around drive, fly combination,you can also combine choices of a combination.
(43:03):
So like everything else here at GoWay, we can customize it to budget and what your clientis looking for.
Now, I would assume that all your camps, lodges are prime locations, nearby water holes,if not on top of water holes.
So just as you mentioned, they're having a lion.
outside the door, in in the vicinity, you know, roaring at night is all part of thelocation experience with Lamala.
(43:31):
Yeah, so just just to list what we have as assets.
So we have a house here about 500 meters away from where I am now for people that want toor need an overnight when they fly in from overseas.
Typically, most flights arrive late in the evening.
So we have a lot of people arrive in the evening, they have an overnight then fly out ordrive out the following morning.
(43:55):
So that's Lamala Hammock house.
Then we have of the tentative camps, we have a tentative camp in Gorgo Crater.
So that's Lamala and Gorgo tentative camp.
Then we have a tentative camp on the western side of the Serengeti, which is there allyear.
Then we have a tented camp which moves according to where the migration is from the Marain the north to the South.
(44:22):
So those are the tented camps.
The lodges are Pingo Ridge in Tangier national park.
We're just about to open on the 15th of July, Lamala Osenjoy Lodge also in Gorogor crater.
That'll be really exciting.
And then we have Lamala Nanyuki Lodge on the eastern side of Serengeti where incidentally
(44:43):
Most people appreciate that in Africa, you get walked back to your tent at nighttime witha guard at Lamal and Nanyuki and at Currier Hills.
We mandate that people go back during the daytime because we have so many lions andleopards around.
So we usually have four or five times a week, we have lion visits us in camp.
(45:04):
that's pretty cool.
And then we, as I say, we have Currier Hills up on the north by the river.
It's about a 30 minute drive away from the river.
which is nice because it's not very far, but it's far enough away to be a wave in thecrowds when there are people there.
And then as I mentioned at the beginning, also in Uganda as well.
Of course, yes, have properties in Uganda.
Okay, so we're just gonna start wrapping things up here.
(45:26):
From a practical point of view, if someone's coming out to experience the migration, froman equipment point of view, outside of photography, because again, that's quite a personal
choice, but I think in general, we could say that having a zoom lens as some descriptionwould be beneficial.
Beyond that, now you mentioned most of your camps, if not all of them have chargingopportunities, which makes sense, like there's power there, it's not that.
(45:50):
It's not that remote.
obviously, you know, being bringing lots of batteries for your technical stuff, be itiPhones, cameras, whatever.
But what other sort of practical gear for a trip to Africa or in particular the migrationwould you suggest to a traveler?
I think most people would say a sense of humor.
(46:11):
I would say a little bit of patience, a little bit of realism and listen to what yourtravel advisor tells you.
Yeah.
I've spent a lot of time over the years, you know, don't talking to go away traveladvisors.
They know an awful lot.
It's always a bit more difficult for me when I come in to find something new that I canadd to their world of knowledge.
But listen to what you're told so that you get the right expectations.
(46:33):
So the traveler arrives with
the right approach to what's going on.
Clothing wise, neutral clothing, we do laundry, we tend to do it unless the weather'sreally bad overnight.
So you don't need to overpack, leave the high heels at home, bring a hat, bring yoursunscreen.
Binos are always a good idea.
(46:55):
Yeah, having a set of binoculars just gives you a little bit of extra detail.
And for the photographers, I know we said we wouldn't talk about camera equipment, butalso
zoom out as well as in a lot of startup photographers making make the mistake of justalways having the lens at its maximum.
You know, if you've got a fisheye lens with the the wilderness going through, you'll get amuch better photograph.
(47:18):
And that's a better idea of how many thousands there are.
If you've got a wide angle lens, so know, Right?
Yeah.
So hat, comfortable shoes, neutral colors, sunscreen.
Don't forget to talk about malaria medication.
I don't take we don't take
on a regular, on a full time basis out here.
There's very little around, but always talk to your doctor and always listen to yourphysician.
(47:42):
Sorry.
Is that the right anyway?
You're your medical practitioner and listen, listen, and read the notes that you get fromyour travel advisor more than once and not just when you get on the plane.
Exactly.
Now on that note, James's advice is from a local who lives there, but as he did clarifythere, we cannot officially give you any medical advice.
(48:03):
Please speak to your to your travel doctor or your local or your personal physician forthe latest information on what you should and should not take.
From a water point of view, drinking water, we always recommend you bring or buy whenyou're there a reusable like
Yeti equivalent type of bottle, I would assume that drinking water is easily available forguests when they're in your lodges, tent or otherwise.
(48:31):
Yeah, so what we do we okay, so just to give you a little bit of context, this, we havethe most sophisticated solar setup in Tanzania.
So it's phenomenal.
People told us that we will weigh over spec, it turns out that we're actually the winnersbecause we're so much money.
At the same time as that we actually have water filtration.
So all three of our lodges, will be four by July, have borehole water, which is more than150, 150 feet down.
(48:58):
But we triple filter, excuse me.
triple filter that water and then put it through reverse osmosis.
So the water in the taps is triple filtered.
It's safe, but it has a little bit of a taste to it.
So we then put it through the reverse osmosis.
We have drink stations in all of the lodges and all the tenty camps.
So big refillable bottles and we issue Lamala bottles to every guest.
(49:21):
Okay then, so if they don't have a bottle they can expect to get one on arrival at one ofyour properties.
Yep.
Yep, yep.
We would encourage them if they stay in three camps not to take three home because thatkind of does away with the idea of saving the planet by not having plastic water bottles.
Just so that you know, we still have people arriving with plastic water bottles.
(49:42):
So we collect them, bring them back into Russia and we turn them into I'm not saying howold you are, but I'm old enough to remember those old fashioned school desks where you sat
two people on it with a bench seat and a bench back and a bench seat and then just a
platform, we turn we return X other people's x plastic bottles into those and gives theminto local community schools.
(50:08):
So yeah, it's a large part of what we do.
But our water is, as I say, it's put through all those processes, and we tested everymonth in a in a certified lab.
it's it's good.
It's clean.
Okay, so last question before we have to sign off here is a cost question.
(50:29):
So when someone comes to visit your camps, obviously, which is what we're highlightingtoday, but just in general, if they choose another property or whatever, and we're talking
migration here, other than their accommodation costs, are there additional fees to see themigration, i.e.
enter the park?
So you pay X dollars for your accommodation, and then there's a park fee when associatedwith the migration experience?
(50:52):
So all the national parks, so whether it's the conservation area and Gorogoro, Tarangiri,Manjara, Serengeti charge in two ways.
They charge a bed night fee, a park entrance and a concession fee, some kind of concessionfee.
But that will all be included in the invoice that you receive from your supplier locally,but it's passed on to consumers.
(51:13):
So you don't have to pay on site.
Right.
So again, when someone books here for a migration experience with the model of the costthat they will receive will be inclusive of taxes, etc.
So from our point of view, we include the accommodation, if it's a fly-in, sorry, the gamepackage, so the game drives, laundry, I think in North America you still call them well
(51:41):
drinks, house drinks.
health strengths.
Yeah.
So local local beers, acceptable spirits.
But if you want Grey Goose, then it might come with a premium price.
So premium level drinks, spa treatments you pay on site, although they can be pre bookedif you wish, and any tipping.
Other than that, if you pay your money in 2025 for holiday in 2026, when you arrive,technically you almost never needs, well, you don't need to put your hand in your pocket.
(52:11):
Right, what I was gonna say is for the most part, excluding things like spa and tippingand top shelf drinks, the price you pay is an all-inclusive rate.
Yep, 100%.
And if we're talking to the travel, if we're talking to the travel trade here, one of thethings I've been talking to people about for a long, long time is one of the reasons why
(52:33):
safaris are attractive to the travel trade is A, they're a bit complicated.
B, Africa is a little bit scary.
But also, the travel trade realizes more, larger percent out of every dollar spent onsafari than just about anywhere on the planet.
So if I come, if it's done, you and I were meeting in New York next week.
(52:53):
We wouldn't book a transfer.
We just jump in a yellow cap.
We wouldn't book the hotels to anybody.
We just book it direct.
And if we did book it through a travel agent, have you, they wouldn't make any money if wewanted to go and see Hamilton or go up the empire States building.
We're on Safari because it's an all-inclusive package.
There is commission were available for travel advisors the whole way.
(53:15):
Okay, so James, I'd like to thank you very much for your time today.
Even under the even under the storm and the lightning strikes you experienced why we'rechatting away here.
Very African or Africa, they say, Africa, to say the least.
Again, it's a naturally it's a fascinating destination, East Africa in general.
(53:38):
But obviously the migration is one of those world famous
events happenings that draws people to East Africa that in Goro Goro, the Maasai itself,Mount Kili, of course.
So I hope everyone today has understood how it works, how the Malo can be your base forit.
(54:01):
And in some instances, it can be a mobile base with the mobile tent at camp that James hasmentioned as well.
Some inside tips and tricks on photography.
it was all here really.
So the next thing to do is give one of GoWay's destination specialists a call.
As James mentioned, they're very, very experienced.
James is off out here in person at our shows, but also he's training our staff often.
(54:28):
and as he mentioned, that's, know, he finds it difficult at times to come up with newinformation cause our guys and girls and people know so much about it.
you
We've got the perfect resource here with GoAge destination specialists and of coursebacked up by the on-ground expertise as you can hopefully ascertain by James' comments and
(54:49):
information today.
So James, is there anything else you'd like to say to our listening audience before we saygoodbye?
I'm good, I want to say thank you to you, Don.
It's always a pleasure chatting.
And everybody else that's out there, thanks for signing up and thanks for expressing aninterest in Lamala Viagraway.
They're good partners to us.
(55:11):
Yeah, you are too.
Okay, guys.
Thank you very much for your time today.
We appreciate it and we will talk to you soon.
See ya.
Goodbye.
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