18. Why You Need A Doula

Doulas are a vital part of a woman’s care team, yet they are often undervalued or misunderstood outside certain circles. While traditionally associated with natural or holistic-minded mothers, doulas provide essential support for all birthing individuals, ensuring healthier maternal outcomes for both mom and baby. As the healthcare industry shifts toward value-based care, recognizing the role of doulas is crucial. Their presence not only enhances the birthing experience but also aligns with a broader movement toward more natural, patient-centered approaches to pregnancy and delivery. By integrating doulas into mainstream maternal care, we can foster a more supportive and effective system for all.

Episode Transcript

(00:25):
This is healthcare uprising.
We are here to shine a light on the innovators implementing positive change in Americanhealthcare.
In the patient experience stories, good and bad that can help others navigate thesometimes overwhelmingly complex American healthcare system.

(00:46):
Welcome to the Uprising.
We to doctors and we don't play one on TV.
If you need medical advice, consult with your physician or healthcare professional.
Hello, Health Heads.
Welcome and thank you for checking in to this dose of the healthcare uprising.

(01:10):
I'm your producer in the back, Jeremy Carr, here with your host in the front row, HeatherPierce.
So why don't we tell them what's on the agenda for today, Heather?
So today we are getting to meet with a friend of the show, a local birth doula, AnyaAskiu, who is a birth doula through the Donut International.

(01:32):
which is a leader in evidence-based doula training certification and continuing education.
She moved to Flagstaff in 2003 and went to NAU for interior design.
That's Northern Arizona University, for those of you not familiar.
And after that, she found herself drawn to alternative health and worked in thesupplements industry for about 11 years.
She was also starting her family at that time with her husband,

(01:56):
She's now the mom of four fantastic kiddos and had all four of her babies at home withmidwives in a birthing tub.
Her birth experiences actually inspired her to become a doula so that she can help womenhave the same nurturing support they need during pregnancy and labor as she had with all
four of her children.
Anya is really passionate about women's health, alternative medicine, and empowering womenin their health choices.

(02:22):
That sounds like a very circle of life story.
on many different levels.
So without further ado, let's jump into it.
Here's our conversation with Anya the doula.
Hi, and welcome to Healthcare Uprising podcast.
We have Anya ask you a local Flagstaff doula.

(02:44):
Welcome to the show Anya.
Hey Heather, great to be here.
Great.
Thanks for coming on.
We're excited to continue our conversation around doulas and educating the universe andespecially men on what doulas are this guy right here.
So, uh Anya, why don't you give us, just some background, your history, kind of what ledyou to become a doula, maybe your personal journey that led you here.

(03:08):
And we'll definitely want to hear a little bit more about your own personal experiences,um, with doulas as well with your own children.
So.
Yeah, well I was blessed and had four really great birth experiences.
I had all four of my children at home with midwives um and I did have a doula with myfirst um that ended up becoming my midwife for two of the births after that.

(03:34):
And so I had these really great women that supported me and they gave me this amazingexperience.
And I think for the rest of my life that was...
going to be one of the most empowering things that I've ever done.
And so I knew with those experiences that I wanted to pay it forward.
And so I've considered being a midwife, but it is very, very, it's a big commitment.

(03:57):
um And so I don't think at this current time that I'm able to do that because I still havekids in school and trying to manage the mom life with the doula life.
But definitely one day that is the goal is to be a midwife.
And again, just,
paying it forward, passing those experiences along and making sure that women feelempowered.

(04:17):
um And I have a best friend that had a wonderful hospital birth experience.
She would joke with me all the time.
She thought it was just so crazy that I had home births because she showed up to thehospital, got an epidural, slept, had her baby.
So it's not necessarily about one way or the other.
It's about the woman being able to choose what birth experience.

(04:38):
she wants and a big role as a doula is to try to help facilitate that and however it maylook.
um And so, you know, I think a lot of people have a misconception that a doula is for homebirths and that's not the case.
I've been to far more hospital births than home births.
And so it's making sure that the woman feels nurtured and cared for and that continualcare throughout the birth experience.

(05:04):
um Whereas if you go into the hospital, you've got shift change for nurses and the OB isreally only there em periodically to check on you, but then at the very end.
so having somebody there that's by your side from start to finish with the birthexperiences is really what it's all about.
em And so how I became a doula was 2021.

(05:25):
and COVID was still happening and I was looking at a lot of different options.
I just had my little guy two years prior, so he was getting to an age I knew he would begoing to preschool.
And so I was looking into midwifery and different avenues of what I wanted to do.
And so I was trained in April, 2021 as a doula and I've been doing it ever since,absolutely love it.

(05:49):
So Ania, you had, obviously you had home births.
ah Is that how you were first exposed to what a doula was?
Like, did you know what it was?
Did you have this idea in your head even before you had kids that you're like, I'm one,I'm going to use a doula and two, maybe I'll become a doula too.
Like what was that like for you to even come across this whole concept?

(06:11):
Well, I was introduced to the concept of a doula when I was working with a midwife in myfirst pregnancy.
But you have to pay out of pocket to have a home birth.
It's not um it's becoming more, you know, insurance is seeing a need for it and coveringit.
But um everything was out of pocket at this time.
And so I didn't choose to spend the extra money to hire a doula.

(06:35):
But ironically, there was a gal that was training um to become a midwife and she was adoula and they asked me if it was okay if she came to my birth to get, you know, as part
of her certification.
And I said, yeah, that's fine.
And she ended up being my saving grace and such, she was such a blessing and became myfriend and also became my midwife for the two births after my first one.

(06:58):
And so that was really my first experience with a doula and um
I had a very loving husband for the experience, em but even he was like a deer in theheadlights.
And just, there was a certain point when it's an intense or can be an intense experience.
And he really just didn't know how to support me and didn't know what to do.
And at that point, my doula, um she was just everything.

(07:20):
actually kind of arm wrestled to get through the last little part of it.
And so I think that was when I really
realized how amazing these women were that were supporting me and got me through, youknow, the birthing process and made it again such a peaceful and empowering experience.

(07:40):
And so from there it was like, I knew that's where I wanted to go.
I wasn't sure how I was going to get there.
And so, yeah.
Wow, that's cool.
I should add here too, for our listeners, Anya and our friends.
So oh I know that she had her babies at home and not too far away from me so that, andthat you were becoming a Jula.

(08:05):
So that's exciting stuff.
I'm so glad that we can get your perspective on this because you've not only have you hadall your children at home and through the support of
either a midwife and or a doula, but then you became one.
So you kind of have a great perspective, I think, for this conversation.

(08:26):
So, and truthfully, I, in hindsight, I wish I had had a doula for my birth, honestly.
Like I really do.
I like, dang it.
Why didn't I know about this?
Like it really, I don't know.
It wasn't as widespread or common.
And I, and I know we're going to talk about kind of the increase of doulas too.
And I think maybe even midwives as well.

(08:46):
but tell us about what kind of day in the life, like in day and many lives of a doula,right?
Because I imagine they can be really different depending on what's going on, but can youkind of share some of maybe the nitty gritty details?
Yeah, absolutely.
um So I'll start with more of the uh business side of it, where a client who isconsidering a doula can schedule to have an initial consult.

(09:16):
And so we get together, we talk about when the estimated due date is, does that work forthe doula schedule?
And then moving forward, um we talk about what a doula looks like and what specifically itmight look like in their birth.
um
and our role in that.
And then if they choose to hire a doula moving forward, there are usually two prenatalvisits and those are at 30 weeks and 36, 37 weeks.

(09:42):
And we are available at any point for any questions, um concerns, things that come up.
And, you know, lot of pregnancies can, can really change fast.
And so it can go from wanting a home birth to needing to be a hospital to being aninduction or a C-section.
so
Again, having someone that's there through it all, no matter what happens.
And so we're there for those questions.

(10:03):
But usually we only meet at the 30 week mark and the 36, 37 week mark.
we'll go, a doula will go to their house and just check out where they're at.
So we're not trying to find it at three in the morning, knock on the wrong door.
And then for the birth aspect, it can look a million different ways.
It's really up to the client.

(10:24):
So early labor can be a very intimate time.
for a couple and they can watch TV, play games, go for a little light walk around theirhouse or their neighborhood.
But other clients, they might feel better going ahead and being at the hospital and havingsupport early on.
And so it's really up to them.

(10:45):
And so we really reiterate that with the client.
It's whenever they want us there.
And it has looked a million different ways.
And so we'll go whenever they say, hey, this is labor, it's really happening.
And although we are not medical em and we don't make any decisions for the client as faras medical advice, we have experience enough to know when labor is progressing around a

(11:10):
good guesstimate of around what stage of labor they're in and can say like, hey, you know,your contractions are getting pretty close together.
It might be a good time to let's load up in the car and get to the hospital.
And the idea behind laboring at home ah is that there's less interventions.
So if a doula is at home, the mom feels very comfortable, can get into a healthy laborpattern before going into the hospital, because it can be very jarring.

(11:34):
And I think in our society, we really overestimate what a primal experience this is.
And a mom needs to go inward um and really kind of shut off the outside world and justfocus on her body and how things are unfolding and not have to worry about outside stuff.
so
You know, role of the doula is, hopefully the mom has had birthing classes, but doesn'thave to be fully on point in labor.

(11:58):
She doesn't have to remember all of those things.
We're there to kind of guide her and help her do different movements and, you know, andalso for partners, it can be very intimidating to see someone you love going through
something.
And I think a lot of men really want to fix, you know, situations and birth is nothing tobe fixed.
It's something to just kind of sit back and let it

(12:20):
you know, naturally unfold.
so having a doula is also really reassuring for partners that they don't have to be theone making the decisions or is this normal?
What are those noises?
Those types of things were there for reassurance too.
um And one thing too, we always tell clients is we are not there to replace the partner.
So it is very important that the partner is, you know, present and engaged, um has somedirection.

(12:47):
So like I was mentioning with my
husband at my first birth and he just got to a point where he just didn't know what to sayor do.
And, you know, it was really nice to have a doula step in and so he was still there.
He was still present.
He was very encouraging.
uh But also there wasn't that burden on him alone to be the only encouraging factor.

(13:09):
You know, there was someone else to say, okay, I'm going to step up.
so, uh you know, oftentimes too, labor can be a long process.
And so dad's
they're so focused and in the moment they're not eating, they're not getting a break, youknow, and they need to be able to have the longevity to be there um and for it to be good
experience for the partners too.

(13:31):
They really need to make sure that they, you know, this is something they're gonnaremember for the rest of their lives as well.
And so it's a big part of the doula role is taking off, you know, hopefully some of theanxiety and the burdens that, you know, a partner might feel or a mom, the anxieties a mom
might have in the moment.
And so when a mom calls and says, I'm in labor, this is it.

(13:53):
I'd like for you to come over.
A doula can go to the house or go to the hospital and stay throughout the entire processuntil baby is born.
And then there is usually a golden hour, which is 60 to 90 minutes where the mom and thebaby gets skin to skin and they really get to bond.
If the mom is choosing to breastfeed, she can breastfeed all of these things right.

(14:17):
during that time, our role is still to nurture the mom.
And so, because there's medical folks there to take care of all the rest, but making surethat, okay, this has been exhausting or can be exhausting.
So let's get you a really good nutritious meal.
I like to call it the victory meal.
Let's make sure that, know, you're, hopefully the mom is hydrated throughout the process,but even more so afterwards if she's gonna, you know, try to breastfeed.

(14:41):
And I mean, even if not, it's such a process, just making sure that we're focused on
let's get the mom to a really good place.
Let's get her cleaned up.
And then usually after that, you know, one to two hours after baby's born, everybody'spretty tired and ready to take uh a good nap.
And so that's about the time we will, you know, step out and let them have that time as a,as a new family.

(15:04):
And from there, we'll do one postpartum.
We'll check in.
We try to do it within the first week after baby's born and just make sure thateverything's going smoothly.
If there's more issues, if they need.
you know, uh support outside support, know, like postpartum or if they need a lactationconsultant or whatever that might look like, you know, um so that's kind of an in general

(15:25):
uh idea of a doula's role.
as far as the birth goes, like time requirements, obviously that is very, very, it's allover the place.
you guys don't know how things are gonna go.
I wanted to ask too, can somebody extend their support like with you like into thepostpartum phase?

(15:47):
Yes.
So you would call that postpartum doula support and it's very different than the birth.
m But that would be someone coming in and it can be whatever the mom needs.
If the mom needs nutritious meals, pick up some groceries and cook those meals, do somefreezer meals, meal prep.
If the mom is just needing a shower or a nap, we can take care of baby em and it can bewhenever.

(16:11):
So a lot of times moms have support from family or partners, have time off work in thevery beginning.
And then when they go back to work, that might be an ideal time to get outside help.
so, yeah, but that would be more postpartum doula support versus the uh birthing doulasupport.
But absolutely.
And I think, again, a lot of people underestimate so many of these things.

(16:35):
And it's glorified, you know, Hollywood movies and how they how all this plays out.
But it can be really hard to adjust to a new baby.
And so having somebody there that's experienced, they know what to expect and
Even just to sit there and say, again, this is perfectly normal.
What you're experiencing is normal.
If you need it, here are the resources available to you.

(16:58):
I have a front end question on your process.
uh So you only meet with them twice before the actual birth.
I feel like there's a lot to go through in those meetings.
Can you give us an uh example of the things you actually talk about, like the questionsyou ask them and the topics you discuss for that?

(17:18):
Yeah.
uh
So we really like to get to know the clients.
We do try to do as in depth as possible during those two meetings.
And like I said, we can do an initial client consult, but until they hire us, we try notto go too in depth.
And then once we do, we're asking questions about, you know, their personality.

(17:38):
What do they do when they're in stressful situations?
um What are their birth expectations and hopes?
What are they hoping that their birth plan looks like?
um
and just going over a lot of those as well for the partner because sometimes partners haveways of coping that will come in handy to be aware of.
And so let's say that there's a dad that has high anxiety and when he feels stressed, heneeds physical exercise or activity.

(18:04):
And so knowing that and being able to say, you know, Hey, this is a really good time tostep outside the room, go for a little walk around the hospital, grab, you know, something
to eat and come back and just being aware and learning our clients.
And so when a doula really learns the clients and their personalities and again, how theycope um and their birth expectations, we can kind of get an idea of how we will support

(18:30):
them specifically.
um the other thing with the birth plan is there's a lot of things at the hospital that area given.
And so this one's a really common big topic is um delayed cord clamping.
So with the umbilical cord, hospitals usually clamp and cut pretty quickly, like 60seconds after birth.

(18:51):
And it's a very fast process.
And based on evidence-based birth information, there is evidence out there supportingdelayed cord clamping.
And so even when you say, hey, I want delayed cord clamping after my birth, sometimes forcertain providers, that can mean
you know, just a few minutes.

(19:12):
And so if you're wanting something like 10 minutes or until it stops pulsating, then youneed a birth plan.
So you need something written up.
What's the benefit of that?
By the way.
I'd have to, I wouldn't feel comfortable quoting it just off the top of my head, but justthat, you know, in general, the evidence-based birth is stating that, um, the baby is

(19:33):
getting more of the hemoglobin, that it's better for the baby.
The flip side is, and it's, it's more positive benefits than negative risks, but thatjaundice could be a factor.
And so that is the controversy in that specific topic.
Um, again, most of the research.
points towards it being very beneficial.
again, I mean, this is a, you know, it's a woman's choice.

(19:54):
It's her baby, it's her body, it's what she wants, but making sure she has the resources.
And we all know that you can, you can look up a million different things and go down arabbit hole.
So making sure finding evidence-based birth information.
So it's not just somebody posted it and it's not credible, but making sure they havecredible information to make decisions.
And so we'll go over the birth plan.

(20:15):
And if there's things that a mom is wanting that is not
standard at FMC then uh or for the midwife if it's a home birth, then we will talk abouthow to word that on the birth plan so that before the birth unfolds, you can pack it in
your hospital bag, hand it to the nurse.
And so it can be little things like the delayed cord clamping or I would like, you know,movement, I would like to avoid an epidural or, uh you know, things like that.

(20:43):
These are pretty common topics that we talk about.
And so we'll go over a lot of those and em
When discussing those, we bring no judgment.
It's not a doula's birth experience.
It's the clients.
And so it's really um whatever the mom wants.
And so we bring no judgment.
We don't take anything personally.

(21:04):
And so when um certain topics come up, we just want to make sure the mom has all theinformation possible for each individual topic so that when she goes into the birth, she
has sort of how she would like it to unfold.
And it doesn't always work out.
There's plenty of moms that
They do everything right and they have this plan and life just happens.
And uh so even what that might mean, mom's really not wanting a C-section.

(21:29):
I know you can probably attest to this one, right?
yeah.
uh But specifically for C-sections, a lot of women are fearful of that and they think, ifI have a cesarean, some women look at it as a failure, some women are very open to
whatever, as long as me and baby are happy, but understanding the client.
and their relation, you know, in these topics and how they're feeling about them.

(21:53):
And so still allowing them to have certain choices, even when it goes a different way thanthey had hoped.
So for example, in a cesarean, if that ended up happening, they do have the option for aclear curtain.
So if a mom wants to be able, you know, to see baby being brought out, they can use aclear curtain.
the mom-
I that goes in front of you that normally, well, in my case.

(22:16):
to be that curtain right?
Right?
environment.
But the mom can have a clear curtain.
And so you do have to request it.
They're not going to automatically do this for you.
It's something that you have to say, if I have a cesarean, I would like the clear curtain,I would like to see my baby, please hold my baby up.
You know, first thing was that
like when I was having my kids because nobody ever offered that to me.

(22:38):
So.
So, I mean, that's the thing and they won't offer it to you.
This isn't something that an OB is gonna discuss with you, especially if it's an emergencytype situation and things are progressing and changing very fast, they're not gonna say,
hey, let's talk about that.
They're gonna say, it's time, let's move forward.
But talking about all of these different possibilities ahead of time is really, again, abig role of a doula.

(23:03):
I don't think, a lot of clients know
the in general birth process, but they haven't gone down each specific topic and differentthings that could happen in the birth process.
so talking about those ahead of time, feeling where the client is at and um what theirthoughts on it, opinions are on it, if that were to happen and how we can help still make

(23:27):
that an empowering experience.
things you had mentioned earlier on, and it was about allowing the, particularly in asituation, I would say, where somebody does want to give birth at home, but even if
somebody who is planning to go to a medical facility, more laboring at home, lessintervention in the end.

(23:49):
When you talk about intervention, so that is like inducing
or Pitocin or moving to C-section quickly, are there other things or can you kind ofexpand on that a little bit about what that means?
Like the importance of being able to labor at home as long as possible to avoidintervention, medical intervention.

(24:11):
uh Absolutely.
So it is very provider specific.
uh And so specifically in our town with Flagstaff Medical Center, right now there is ahuge change going on.
We've normally had two uh different OB providers.

(24:32):
We've had uh Flagstaff OB and then we've had North Country.
And those are your two options as a mom, if you're choosing to have a baby at the hospitalat FMC.
And recently there were two OBs that left flag OB and there's only one left that is stilldoing deliveries.
And that has caused so many problems and a lot of them do it.

(24:56):
There's only one left?
my gosh.
So there's only one doctor left at Flag OB at the current moment and a lot of clients,very, very blindsided got moved to North country.
And then North country is overwhelmed.
so, um and then with North country, there are traveling OBs, there's midwives, there'sjust regular OBs.

(25:17):
So there's lots of different options too.
And you can choose who you see as your provider throughout your pregnancy.
um So sorry about that.
Am I there?
Just a minor glitch, you're fine.
So you can choose your provider throughout the pregnancy, but when you go in to givebirth, you are at the mercy of whoever is there on call.

(25:39):
And uh again, how things unfold can be very provider specific.
so based on our experiences, there are certain providers that might, like let's just usefor example, there are A, B, and C induction methods.
And so, you maybe most OBs will go A, then B, then C, but there are other providers thatwill go straight to C and for whatever reasons that they have.

(26:04):
And so they bring their own personal experiences, their own expertise as well.
And so each provider might do things a little differently.
so making sure that the mom is in a really healthy, solid labor pattern before going intothe hospital, they're going to avoid even talking about A, B, and C.

(26:25):
She's already doing great, she's progressing, things are going well.
Let's just, normally they'll take the stance of like, let's just see what happens, you'redoing great.
um And you know, blood pressure's good, all these things are looking good, mom and babyare healthy.
Then they're gonna let things unfold and baby's gonna happen and they're really not gonnahave very much involvement.
They're gonna monitor but they're not gonna necessarily direct or anything, they're gonnalet the mom have that experience.

(26:52):
But when things start happening, that's when
You know, interventions are necessary and needed, but early on, I think there is this sortof anxiousness to get things going into that labor pattern.
And so, you know, once you're at the hospital, it's like all eyes are on the mom and, youknow, questions are being asked, whereas if she's still at home and letting them unfold,

(27:14):
it's just, you know, so that's the idea behind that is making sure that she's already in agood labor pattern before she goes in and then they will take that step back and let
things unfold.
from there.
really can and does decrease the opportunity for a c-section?

(27:36):
we, I mean is that a pretty fair statement?
Yeah, there's some plenty of statistics out there, especially the evidence-based birth.
I keep referring to that, but that's what, know, doulas use to send clients to show, okay,this is like the accurate research that shows that hiring a doula, you know, percentage
wise, and I probably should know that number off the top of my head, but that we decreasethe risk of those things.

(27:59):
Yes.
to remember Latham Thomas from episodes 10 and 11 talked about that.
think she said, I want to say it was 28 % reduction in surgical births.
It was a pretty big number.
Yeah, that sounds about accurate, yeah.
fine too like in your experience and it sounded like I think you said earlier on that youprobably end up working with more clients that actually deliver in a medical facility so

(28:29):
in our case Flagstaff Medical we don't have any we don't have any other birthingfacilities here do we?
I think that's the only one right?
I can touch on that too.
So we have two midwives and they do not work together.
They have separate businesses.
is Jana.
She has Aspen McWifery and the Flagstaff Birth Collective.
um And then there is Margie with Women Care.

(28:51):
And Women Care is actually opening up a birthing center in June, late June, I believe.
And very, very excited about that because we have not had a birthing center in years.
It sounds like we need it now that there's only one OB at FMC.
You know, I was going to say, and this again, and this comes up a lot on our show is thatwe have some real big issues in rural America.

(29:13):
And Flagstaff is not even like as rural as rural can get, but even still when you'reserving all of Northern Arizona, it's a regional medical center and you've got only a
couple of OBs like just in this town.
Like that's a huge problem.
I mean, at least we still have a hospital that you can deliver at because that's...
you know, another thing that you see in kind of this rule America issue is that you've gothospitals that are just completely shutting down their, their delivery, um, maternity

(29:40):
wards.
So.
So the birthing center is very exciting.
And I think, you know, birthing center is a great solution for any woman that is on thefence where she's like, you know, I like the idea of having a more intimate experience and
having a little bit more of a peaceful birth because even just the basics of a hospital,the fluorescent lights and, you know, constant people in and out of the room and different

(30:02):
things for some women can, can be, you know, something they're trying to avoid, but yet ahosp, mean, a home birth is very intimidating.
because there are things that can happen.
And so having that reassurance that, you know, uh a birthing center is sort of in betweenthose two options and it feels a little bit more comfortable for some folks.
So yeah, super excited about that.

(30:23):
And it's fairly close.
mean, we're talking, it's going to be minutes from the hospital.
So, oh say that a mom is laboring and things, you know, turn a corner for the worst.
The hospital's right there.
so it's not, you know, flight staff is a pretty, we're pretty spoiled.
It's, you know, what eight miles
Five minutes to get anywhere.
Yeah.
Everywhere's close in this town.
For like, I have to go to the other side of town.

(30:44):
It's going to take me 15 minutes.
know.
So yeah, birthing center is going to be really close to the hospital.
And so yeah, that's going to open up and hopefully right in the nick of time because thisthe whole fiasco that's happening right now.
Yeah, North Country is very overwhelmed.
I've uh
I had no idea any of this was cool, but you know, my kids are older.
So like, don't really know too many people that are having babies anymore.

(31:09):
It's like my cousin's kids, you know, like all of our kids that are, it's like, that'swhen you know, you're old is, is when your cousin's kids are all having babies.
But I'm like, I go to more 50th birthday parties at this point in my life.
But yeah, so I'm a little out of touch with that.
It's good to know we're getting that.

(31:30):
that the birthing center.
You know, the other thing too, again, because I've kind of been like out of this and thisbaby stuff for a while, but and Flagstaff in general, I mean, like we're kind of a special
place in terms of being a little bit more open to doulas and midwives and kind of morenatural kind of ways of living and, you know, and so that makes us pretty unique.

(31:53):
But even still, like, have you seen, are you seeing a change in
like even a more broader and bigger group of people becoming more open or even desiringsomething other than just delivering in hospital?
Has that changed?
Yes.
So I wouldn't say that it's been, you know, a straight upward, it's kind of done this.

(32:17):
So I feel like there was actually a fairly high demand when I was using Womancare.
Womancare was owned by another midwife, Mary Ann in town, and she retired and sold herbusiness.
And there were a lot of home births.
So it was actually very, I don't want to use the term popular, but it was, it was verywidely accepted and sought after to have a home birth.

(32:39):
And then I felt like that kind of went away more so because there wasn't the availabilityfor a little while.
There wasn't there just weren't the options.
so woman care used to have uh several midwives.
I think there were five.
I maybe more.
So they really had a well-oiled machine with their business.

(33:00):
And so when there was that transition timeframe, I feel like there were a lot less homebirths.
then
Again, I'm not great with statistics and remembering, but after COVID, a lot more peoplewere choosing to have home births because of COVID.
Nobody wanted to go have a baby with COVID floating around.
So there was.

(33:22):
hospitals were scary for a while there.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I was lucky.
had my, I had him at home anyways, but I had my youngest um in September of 2019, rightbefore the world, you know, shut down and everything.
But yeah, I can only imagine how scary that would be.
So there was the uptick and um home births then, and then there was more availability.

(33:44):
And then again, we had another transition specifically in Flagstaff when we had thebirthing center with several different midwives.
And then, you know, that closed down as well.
And so then there was kind of another shift.
And yeah, we're definitely seeing it.
had one of the midwives, I had a conversation with her the other day and she had a clientcall her and tell her that she was told this client, essentially this is all third-hand

(34:11):
information, but this client told the midwife that she had been referred to Margie to havea home birth because there was such a crazy demand going on at North Country.
They're overwhelmed.
And that's really the first time I've certainly, I've been in Flagstaff 21 years this May,I've certainly never heard a conventional OB em be that supportive and then go the step

(34:35):
further to encourage or suggest a home birth because they're that, em you know,oversaturated right now with clients and kind of trying to figure out how to make that
work.
So yeah, definitely seeing an uptick in it for sure.
Could this be a real shift in the whole healthcare scene and that birthing at home kind ofbecomes actually the way to do it and you only go to the hospital if you need to?

(34:59):
Absolutely.
em And I think too, it's just about availability.
So right now we really only have two midwives, but I know that there are several intraining with woman care.
And so when they are able, when there's several different midwives in one practice, thatreally opens up the availability too, because the midwives have to cap it off.
They're trying to juggle a personal life and family life with being a midwife.

(35:22):
And so they have to say, I can only take, let's say two births a month.
And so if there is that third client and they just can't, they can't do it, you know,that's problematic.
So making sure that there is the availability.
And I do see that happening, especially with the birthing center and knowing that thereare some midwives in training with woman care and different things.
um And I think the other thing is there's just been this stigma behind it until COVID.

(35:48):
And then it gave that reason of like, no, there's an extra more in depth reason to why youwouldn't go to a hospital.
You this is a place you go when you're sick.
There's just so many illnesses in a hospital and this, you know, a birth and a pregnancy,that's not an illness.
And so being able to have a safe space to do that with a professional who is trainedmedically, uh you know, then became uh a more widely accepted option.

(36:12):
So for sure, I hope, you know, that this is the direction we're taking.
You know, I don't have any personal opinion to what a woman wants for her.
birth, but I know how wonderful it was for me and just hoping that other women who alsoseek that type of experience, that they're able to have that.
I like this idea and I'm thinking in Jeremy, I don't know if you've this has popped inyour head, but thinking back to our interview with Latham Thomas with mama glow, she

(36:38):
talked about how there was like this kind of this perception or not even more thanperception.
this approach in the industrial age that kind of shifted over many decades that like thewoman's body is like a machine, right?
Like we just do these things.
And so
the, we were talking specifically about the increase of C-sections, right?

(36:59):
And so then kind of this medical intervention and whatnot.
And so that just like the way that we approach delivery of babies changed so drasticallythat made those C-sections increase.
And instead like we're not, yeah, you know, yeah, our body's like a car, right?
Like all these things, sure.
But it's not, it's a woman's body.

(37:20):
It's very different.
None are the same.
And I mean,
Truthfully, mean, I'd like to see this shift.
I think it makes sense.
It's natural.
We're not sick, you know, like to your point.
We shouldn't be going to a hospital.
You go to a hospital when you're unwell or you have an acute condition that needs, youknow, taken care of.

(37:41):
Now, if you're a high risk pregnancy or anything like that, absolutely 100%.
Like that should probably be your focus, right?
of people, they just feel more comfortable in general.
And I think that's when a doula comes into play is there are, you know, folks that arejust kind of stepping into this whole world of becoming a parent and there's a lot to
learn in a very short amount of time and it can be very overwhelming and pregnancy andbirth are just one part of it.

(38:06):
You know, you're a parent for a lifetime after that.
And so I think the people that are wanting to, you know, have a hospital birth, that's whythey hire a doula.
And that's why
doulas are in more of a demand for hospital births, ironically, because if someone'shiring a midwife, they feel like they're already gonna get that level of care with the
midwife.
And so for an example too, a midwife after birth will come and check on the mama the dayafter, two days after, four days after.

(38:34):
I don't know their exact schedule, but they will come nearly every day that first week.
It's a very more intimate relationship with a client that a midwife has versus an OB.
so, em so I think, you know, a doula is more so hired to still try to facilitate that,that whole experience with the client that they feel like they're more cared for and

(38:55):
nurtured when going to a hospital.
And so, like I said, yeah, it's, it's funny, the demand of, you know, for doula is more soat a hospital, but as long as the mom has that choice and, know, like I'd mentioned
previously, one of my best friends, had.
a lovely experience.
went in, she had an epidural, took a nap, they woke her up and told her to push andeverything was great.

(39:16):
And so it's really about, you know, it doesn't matter what the mom chooses.
It's that the mom feels that she has a choice.
Yeah, the biggest thing in all of this.
And that is a big part of the doula, the doula role.
And I think too, a lot of times, women are very intimidated to go against the norm.
let's say they're going in and

(39:36):
You know, they don't want to necessarily offend the doctor or go against what the doctor'ssaying, but having a doula there to remind them and send that evidence of whatever it is
decision that they're trying to make to give them that confidence to say, no, really feelstrongly, you know, again, going back to delayed cord clamping, I always use that as a
pretty easy example, but you know, saying there might be a provider that's like, well, Ireally don't recommend that.

(40:01):
guess what, it's still the client's choice.
so clients can feel, I don't wanna use the term bullied, but sort of pressured into makingdecisions.
so having a doula, again, we have no opinions, but giving them that evidence so that theyfeel confident in whatever decision they're trying to make is another part of it.
I think that plays a bigger role in a hospital versus a home birth setting.

(40:24):
They feel empowered to dictate their birth, right?
Or the birth of their child.
their decision, yeah.
And even things as simple that a lot of folks don't know.
You go to a hospital and they'll hand you a gown and say, go ahead and get dressed, youknow?
And they're not gonna preface it to you at any point and say, you can bring whatever youwant.

(40:45):
You don't have to wear anything, you know?
mean, women in labor, sometimes they just, do their own thing and they're all natural.
But the fact that you have that option, and I think a lot of people, when they just go inand have a baby,
at a hospital, they don't know any of this stuff.
And so even some of the very seemingly basic decisions, they are decisions.
They're not, you have to wear this gown.

(41:07):
And so really breaking all of that down for the client so that again, it can be this likeexperience that they will talk about and remember positively for a lifetime.
That's great.
Yeah, like having an advocate throughout the process basically is, you know, always goingto help.
You keep referencing the shift from doula to midwife.

(41:30):
Is that a common thing for, for, you know, doulas to move up, I guess, or transition intomidwifery?
And what is that transition like?
How much of a process is that?
Well, um very, very different processes.
A midwife is, I mean, it's gonna take a long time, lots of commitment, lots of educationand steps that you have to take to become a midwife because you are essentially, I mean,

(41:55):
you're medically trained in every aspect for the mama, the baby, all of it.
And with a doula, again, we're not medical.
And so the training to become a doula is uh much more simple.
And so, although we are well educated on...
what the labor process looks like and we've experienced it a million different ways.
You know, for me over the years, I've, I, I don't want to say that I've seen it allbecause as soon as I say that, say, I mean, you really do learn something new with each

(42:20):
birth and, even which each, each client is different.
And so just because they've had a baby, you know, and you've been the doula for a previousbirth, the next one's going to be completely different.
And so, um, you know, to become a doula is, is a much more simple process than becoming amidwife.
But the commitment is a lot less, although I am on call and I am there sometimes, youknow, 24 plus hours for a birth is pretty common for it to be 24 hours.

(42:47):
m A midwife is much more in depth, like I talked about before, they um not only thepostpartum and how frequent they are checking on the mom after the baby's born, but the
level of responsibility that they have, um you know, for the client.
And really there is no responsibility on my part.
I'm not

(43:07):
I'm not gonna tell them when to go to the hospital again.
I can say, hey, based on the timing of your contractions and your mannerisms, you're in areally good labor pattern.
I think it's time to do this.
Let's make our way to the car if we're at home.
And so the responsibility and the expectations are a lot less.
And so therefore, yeah, the training for a midwife is pretty intense.

(43:30):
I have looked at it before, but to be able to reiterate that specifically, I don't knowthat I could be able to, but.
um It's really amazing what they do because it is such a commitment and the women thatbecome midwives are clearly dedicated to the cause, the purpose and the women that they're
taking care of.
mean, it's definitely a calling for sure.

(43:50):
Are they covered by insurance, do know?
So insurance is becoming more widely acceptable for doulas as well.
eh
we've heard a little bit about that too, which is cool.
through, or like employers offering it as part of like benefits, um, benefits packages fortheir employees or maybe even Medicaid, think is what Laecom had talked about too.
She said there was a federal program.

(44:10):
you asked for the right paperwork and filled it out, you could get a free doula.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like not even insurance, it's just a federal program.
Yeah, it is becoming more widely accepted and understood that having a doula producespositive outcomes for pretty much everybody involved.
so, you know, we can talk about that relationship with, you know, the, the OBs and nurses,if you have any questions regarding that, but how that works.

(44:37):
because we really, for everybody that's involved in the birth process, a doula really doesmake everything go smoothly is the idea behind it.
Just OBs appreciate you being there.
Do you have a pretty good relationship or you feel pretty comfortable and welcome at thebedside?

(45:00):
Absolutely, specifically with FMC, great relationship with the labor and delivery nurses,which you really interact with more so than the OBs, but the OBs as well and getting to
know them and being able to um sort of give your clients what to expect.
Again, while you're not giving medical advice, you can say, I know this OB does not likedelayed cord clamping.

(45:21):
So if that is important to you, you might have to really advocate for that because this OBdoes not like to do that or
You know different things like that.
And so, know as a doula we get to know the OB's and sort of What they tend to do and theirexpectations are in the birth process too for the client and different things and we can
relay that But yeah, they we make everyone's You know lives essentially the labor deliverynurses, you know lives easier in that process because they have a lot of You know roles

(45:52):
that they're doing they're charting.
They're doing the medical side.
They're doing cervical checks.
They're doing blood pressure
and all of these things and talking to the doctor and they might, know, on a busy day,they might have so many different rooms full that they're going back and forth.
Whereas the doula is there.
And then if something changes, they can go out and say, Hey, listen, this is going on andkind of a mediator between that without speaking up for the client.

(46:15):
saying like, um, there was a, example is there was a mom that had, had been at it forawhile and she really needed some sleep.
And so
you know, kind of communicating that with a nurse kind of outside of the room of like, youknow, what do you guys have a game plan?
Let's talk to the OB and then kind of being there to make sure that all of that goessmoothly so that we can figure out options to help the mom get some rest.

(46:38):
And she was able to get rest and have a very successful birth experience.
so yeah, they, I, I, my understanding is they really look forward to it when we're at abirth and we've even had them say,
please tell me you're going to this room and we're like, no, we're going over here andthey're like, oh man, she really needs a doula.
So I think we are appreciated in the hospital as well at those births.

(46:59):
That's good to hear.
um
I really have to set up boundaries though, so that we don't offend an OB.
It's not our place to have a medical decision or to say, ooh, I think you should do thisor, you know, it has nothing to do with us as a doula.
This is about the mom and her decision and her partner and the OB and, know, whatever'sgoing on medically.

(47:20):
So we have to really set firm, strong boundaries.
And even if we know on the birth plan that there was something the client was wanting ornot wanting, and we see that unfold,
we don't say, hey, my client doesn't want that.
We'll go, oh, it looks like, again, I keep going back to the leg cord clamping just to notget into, there's so many different topics we could get into, if we see that it's

(47:41):
happening, we can say, oh, I see that they're about to do cord clamping.
I know that you had mentioned that you wanted to wait until it stops pulsating.
Are you comfortable with this moving forward?
Or do you want to talk about that?
And so sort of pausing the situation.
So we can have eyes and ears on the room and we can be very aware of what the client iswanting, but we'll never speak on their behalf, making sure that we keep those firm

(48:03):
boundaries so that we don't offend a midwife or we don't get a bad reputation with an OBwhere we're not welcome.
So we really have to be um very firm in our boundaries with what we do as a doula.
I know your politics and all, you know, do you have as a doula, there like a, it's a very,you know, maybe a misplaced term, but a toolkit, a standard, know, like the doctor's black

(48:30):
bag or the contractor's toolkit.
I want to know what's in there.
What is in that bag?
What is a standard tool?
m
of different tools.
So I always have a heat pack, tins unit.
um I always have different types of massage lotions.
I have some tools uh for massage, one in particular that it's a massage gun and becauseeverybody is different and then something that might feel great at one moment, you know,

(49:00):
as labor progresses and intensifies might not be great for another.
So for example, with that is some women really love hip squeezes.
And so it's just as it sounds where a doula is squeezing their hips together during thecontractions.
Personally, if somebody had tried to squeeze my hips, well, we won't go there.
I would not have been very nice about that.
I personally did not want anybody touching me.

(49:22):
You're last thing you ever do, buddy.
I cannot squeeze their hips hard enough.
And so everybody's just different.
And so having a variety of coping mechanisms.
We also have a ruboso, which is a traditional Mexican scarf.
Let's see if I can find that.
Robozo, is that what you said?
A robozo, yeah.
And so there's lots of different tools.

(49:45):
Yeah, it is in here.
Show you what that looks like.
I'm like, I this word and now I'm seeing it.
Yep.
Yeah.
What do do with that?
We can do with that.
um And I've used it a million million different ways.
um But so that's another tool that we have in the bag.
I always have lots of snacks because if you know, if the cafeteria is closed and there's along labor spans overnight or even going into the second night, I want to make sure that I

(50:14):
have nutritious food.
And so when I know that I'm on call for birth, I will sort of keep this stocked andrestocked.
I'll have, you know,
I have my basics like deodorant and a toothbrush as well, just make sure you pleasant.

(50:38):
That's important.
You actually think about yourself.
man.
That's great.
What is your favorite thing?
Like what is your absolute favorite thing about being a doula?
I love how empowered women feel.

(50:59):
I know I keep saying that one to you, a lot of these things, I'm really reiterating thesame things over and over, but it is a big part of it.
the uh clients, they are so grateful.
I've had some clients that, and you you form a bond with certain people, certain clients.
And so there's some that still text me, they will text me baby pictures and just.

(51:21):
We were talking about you today and we just want to thank you again.
And it's been, you know, nine months since their baby was born.
And they, and so I put the ladies that helped me through my birth on a pedestal.
I'm very grateful for them.
I know what they sort of sacrificed in their own personal lives to be there because mybirths were all 24 hours.
And then they say that it gets shorter with each birth.

(51:43):
Well, I call bull on that because my last birth was 17 hours.
Wow.
for my fourth one.
so, but you know, these women were with me for a significant amount of time and they'regiving up whatever and they're seeing me, you know, in my most raw, it could be taken as
humiliating form as a woman.
I mean, you're, you know, you're, you're in the thick of it and they are just so loving.

(52:07):
Usually, you know, women that are in this industry, they're just so empathetic and loving.
And so then they in turn have such gratitude.
Um, and so I love, I love that I get the gratitude from these clients for being there, butalso I think they underestimate their own, you know, their own ability, their own
strength.
I mean, they're the ones who did it, no matter how the birth unfolded.

(52:28):
You know, it takes so much as a woman to be able to bring life into this world.
And even when it is a Caesarian, you're giving up so much of yourself, you know, in thatprocess to become a mother.
And, um, so I just, I love that whole experience and I've seen women, you know, just.
just really own it and they can just be the most amazing goddesses in that moment in time,really getting in tune with themselves.

(52:53):
And it's a beautiful thing to get to support that and experience it.
That's awesome.
Well, and it takes a really special person to do what you do too.
So I bet it's never boring.
Definitely never boring, never boring and no day is the same.
Right.
And all that.

(53:13):
So where do you see your journey going with being a dual ed?
How do see it changing?
Like, I mean, you've been doing this for what?
Three, four years now.
Yeah.
So yeah, certified April, 2021.
And so I plan on continuing some outside certifications, working towards a moreencompassing women's health for me.

(53:38):
So currently I'm working on my naturopathy practitioner certification.
And so I really, I have a passion for herbal remedies.
I don't want garlic if I break my arm.
There is a time and a place.
know, for conventional medicine, absolutely.
But I personally have seen things on both sides of it.
um And so I think that if you can try to take an herbal remedy when guided and educatedand taken the right way, can can really help and specifically with women's health, you

(54:09):
know, there's a lot of women dealing with infertility and, and postpartum, or, you know,those types of different things.
so being able to offer
I like mentioning that one.
oh You can use those herbal supplements.
For the right issues, that's a better way to go.
absolutely.
Yeah, so bringing that to the table so that women uh know those options.

(54:34):
One good example I like to use too for that is FiniGreek is great for um breast milkproduction for a mom that's choosing to nurse.
And so I've had clients reach out to me afterwards, know, months afterwards even.
you even though my role as a doula has ended, you know, maybe on a more personal woman towoman level, like, do you know what I can do?

(54:54):
um And so FiniGreek is a really great one, but having
a certification behind that to give it credibility to some of the knowledge that I'vegained over the years.
Because if you remember, I was the manager for New Frontier Supplements.
I do remember that.
Yeah.
She has all sorts of stuff.
Yeah, so I went down that rabbit hole and I experienced firsthand, you know, of what, youknow, the right supplements can do.

(55:19):
um And so the brands and all that.
So currently I'm getting my naturopathy practitioner um looking to get certified to teachbirthing classes.
There are several different options in our town, but there's, you know, the hospital Ithink is like a one Saturday, you know, kind of a birthing course and it's a crash course
and it doesn't offer any.
hoping mechanisms.

(55:39):
It's very like what to expect.
These are the interventions, you know, send you one.
So then there are other classes that are like 10 weeks long.
And that can be very daunting for some people to be able to do a 10 week class, you know,doing it every Monday night or Wednesday night or whatever.
And so, you know, I'm hoping to offer something sort of in between that, that is notnecessarily a crash course, but it is a little bit more conducive to the average working

(56:06):
family who
You know, you've got two parents that are about to, you know, go into this new journey andthey need to know this information, but yet they don't have the time commitment of let's
say 10 weeks or something like that.
So, um, and then also on the horizon is I am getting certified to, to help with pelvicfloor recovery.
Um, and so that is something that I found over and over again, that women need help withpelvic floor.

(56:31):
A lot of them go see a pelvic floor specialist and we do have some really great ones intown and that is more of a, um,
specific, like you have to have your nursing degree or something to go in that direction.
And so they are very well trained and certified in what they do, but there's women sort ofin between that don't necessarily need to go see a specialist, but they do need just a
little bit of help after the baby's born to fine tune the pelvic floor.

(56:53):
so again, trying to encompass all of women's health when, you know, in regards to thepregnancy and birth process and fertility process and postpartum.
Wow.
That's cool.
What is the pelvic floor?
Jeremy learns so many things on this show.
Is that just getting everything back in the right place after you have a baby, basicallythe pelvic floor thing.

(57:17):
That's all I needed.
Okay.
you ever heard of Kegels?
It's a lot on
organs are shifting and rearranging.
so, yeah, I think it's, uh and I've even had friends that have had conversations with me,you know, just about their personal experiences.
And, you know, they had a pretty decent pregnancy and birth, but then it was afterwardsthat was really hard.

(57:41):
again, making sure the whole experience into motherhood, the transition into motherhood isas smooth and peaceful and as empowering as possible.
And so,
You know, on the flip side is it is like, okay, they've had their baby.
Yes, we're to do one postpartum visit afterwards as a doula, but I personally feel drawnto continue to support women and encompass more things into, you know, what I do, what the

(58:05):
things that I bring to the table and how I care for my clients.
So, um, yeah.
Well, I'm excited for you.
Sounds like you got some good things in the hopper.
Expanding your services and clearly we need them here in Flagstaff anyway.
had no idea we were so lacking on the birthing front in this town, right?

(58:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a good thing we got those midwives around.
Well, um as we kind of begin to wrap up here, you've shared so much great information.
I feel like this has been such a uh
Wonderful compliment to the conversation that we had with Latham Thomas with mama glow andthen bringing you in on you to talk about your actual like hands-on experience about

(58:49):
becoming a doula being a doula um If anyone has any questions about anything about a dualthey just need to listen to these three episodes now And then you know, let's let's help
let's help bring those numbers up.
So more and more people um
bring that, you know, get on the doula wagon.
Yeah.
And apparently there's going to be more and more demand for them as time goes on fordoulas and midwives.

(59:12):
If this whole OB, you know, lack of obstetricians keeps up.
And that might be a flag sat problem, but.
And maybe it's the wave of the future.
There's definitely a level of uh sort of a wise older woman that I'm bringing to thetable.
know, because I have had the experience personally, but um I think that there's alwaysgoing to be young mamas that are starting families and they're going to need that support.

(59:39):
And it can be whether it's planned or not planned, but they're going into this journeyjust having someone that has been through it and has the experience to really hold their
hand and say,
you know not only is is it gonna be okay but it can actually very beautiful experience itdoesn't have to be fearful it doesn't have to be negative um so it can be something that

(01:00:01):
you know we turn around and more of a positive light so that's it another part is thatthat wise woman that i'm bringing to the table being a little bit older so
You are wise in your years.
mean, who better than someone who's been through it to get you through it.
You can that for just about any situation.
This is true.
Wisdom is always a good thing.
Experience matters, man.

(01:00:22):
It counts for more, like you can read all the books you want and that can be very helpful,but until you experience something, you don't really understand it.
Right.
There you go.
Well, awesome.
Well, Anya, thank you so much.
This has been a really, really great conversation.
know I've learned even more.
I thought I knew quite a bit about doulas and I've definitely we always walk away fromthese conversations with people just being more educated and aware of all the good things

(01:00:48):
that are happening out there in the world of health care, especially women's health,because we we lean very heavily into that lane here.
So.
uh
Anyhow, thanks so much for coming on.
This has been a great conversation and digging into the world of a doula.
So appreciate it.
Thanks for having me, Heather.
Nice to meet you, Jeremy.
It was really great.
you too.

(01:01:08):
Thanks for coming.
Awesome.
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
And there you go.
conversation with Anya, the doula that that was, uh, it was pretty cool.
I liked getting down into the nitty gritty and the details of it.
And I think my favorite part was that she had her doula toolkit literally sitting rightnext to her.

(01:01:31):
When I asked her the question about what was in it, that was cool.
But, and we didn't prep her for that either.
No, she had no idea that was coming.
It was sitting right next to her.
That was so funny.
But, that was my favorite part, but what are our main takeaways from that?
Heather?
I think, um,
It, it, what it comes down to is, you know, get a doula, right?
Like if you're having a baby, uh, they're really a, an important part of a woman's careteam.

(01:01:56):
they shouldn't be undervalued.
And it does seem that in most cases, um, that obese who are delivering in hospitalsettings or, um, you know, or birthing facilities, um, it really do appreciate them, which
is great, but they, definitely play a big role in, uh, delivering.
healthier babies, um creating just generally, you know, better outcomes for moms too, Ithink, you know, like supporting them in that postpartum period as well.

(01:02:27):
So, and you know, I mentioned that, and I think we talked about this in the interview withLatham Thomas too, where I said, you know, there's been this shift in healthcare around
value-based care, value-based care being like, take care of things before they get worse,right?
Like,
it's really preventative care so that you start lowering the cost of care, you deliverbetter care, more quality care.

(01:02:51):
And I think a doula is a really big part of that in the maternal space.
And I don't know that it's been recognized like that, but I think it should be.
Well, I think most people are unaware of doulas at this point, to be honest with you, butyou know, the more they're putting themselves out there and people like us help them put
themselves out there, the more people will know about it.
And the fact that there's a federal program that if you fill out the right paperwork, youcan get free doula services.

(01:03:15):
Oh yeah, that's right.
That's pretty cool.
Like we talked about that pretty in depth with Latham back in episodes 10 and 11.
I think I mentioned it in passing here, but it's worth saying again, like if you're apregnant woman, you want a doula, ask for that paperwork because apparently you can get
free doula services.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, another point too, outside of certain circles and I'd say you'rekind of.

(01:03:38):
You know, doulas are like such a hippie thing, right?
Which is why I think it's kind of normal here in Flagstaff and probably other areas like,you know, you'd think like a Boulder, Colorado or, know, places like that.
Um, but doulas are for everybody.
they aren't just for hippies.
And especially now, and especially in places like this, we're down to one OB for theentire town of Flagstaff.

(01:04:03):
Right.
You count the college, there's almost a hundred thousand people.
in residence, relying on that hospital.
And it's the only hospital in Northern Arizona, which means Navajo Nation, all thetourists at the Grand Canyon and all the other parks around here.
If you're north of Phoenix in Arizona and something goes wrong, you're going to FlagstaffMedical Center.

(01:04:24):
And if you're a pregnant woman in that area, that's the only real hospital you have.
And there is one doctor there to deliver babies.
Yeah.
It is a very good thing.
have these midwives and, and doulas and all these people in Flagstaff existing becausethey're going to have to take the brunt of this now.
Like they're going to be the ones that everybody's going to now.

(01:04:44):
Yeah.
And the fact that it is more accessible for women to become that, to become these thingsthan it is to become an actual full on medical doctor.
And at the same time, they seem to get better results.
in the birthing process than the full on medical doctors.
Which is one of the biggest things, right?
Like when it, when we talk about healthcare, why, why are healthcare costs rising so much?

(01:05:09):
And a lot of it comes down to the way that people access care, right?
Like they wait until things get really bad or they don't take advantage, preventativecare.
They go to the ER because they don't have a PCP.
mean, if we can lower the chances of somebody having a C-section or medical interventionsthrough
the relatively low cost of a dual or free, then you're saving money in the long run.

(01:05:32):
Imagine that happening in like volume.
Yeah.
Imagine if that was the way that it's no longer just a weird hippie thing, but it becomesthe mainstream.
Cause if we made it the mainstream, then everybody would do it and nobody would think itwas weird because everybody's doing it.
Like that's just how culture works.
We just, the culture needs to change around all the whole process of birthing in thiscountry.

(01:05:55):
Normalized doulas.
You know, question that came to mind afterwards that I didn't get to ask is, wonder ifthere are any male doulas.
I mean, probably, but I gotta imagine that number's pretty low.
And like how many women would even be comfortable with that?
True.
But there's gotta be guys out there who would have an interest.

(01:06:19):
I mean, there's male obese, doctor who delivered my second.
son was a male and I loved him.
He was, oh my God, everybody loved him.
So, but Dula is a little bit different.
That's like more emotional.
intimate in a way.
Yeah.
And not all, sorry, but like.
And just personal relationships.
Men just aren't generally like geared towards that, there's a lot, there's, there's a lotof dudes I've met that are.

(01:06:44):
But again, if they actually want to get into it for the right reasons.
Yeah.
And they have, especially if they have some sort of, you know, beginning medicalbackground or something, that's the way they want to go with it.
Do we want to limit that?
No, I mean, they might have a harder time finding clients, but you know, if they're theonly choice, it's better than nothing.
Right.

(01:07:05):
And some people might want it.
Yeah.
You know, if it's the right guy or like if they have friends who are having babies andthey know this process and they can go in and advocate with the doctor for them and stuff.
Maybe with some, if they want to go to the hospital and have their baby with a male doctorin the hospital, maybe they want to male do a little, in with them to talk to that guy.
Cause maybe he'll be
you know, show him a better respect, not that that's the way it should be, but maybethat's the way it is sometimes.

(01:07:30):
We're creating new career pathways here on the uprising.
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I'm all for it.
Let's go.
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What are we talking about?
We're off the rails.
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(01:07:52):
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Heather.
can find us online at healthcare uprising.com and also on all the social platforms likeInstagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, and blue sky, just search healthcare uprising podcasts and

(01:08:23):
you'll find us.
Also, we would love to have you on our show.
If you're a founder or somehow associated with a new up and coming healthcare, innovativetype of company, and you've got a, you've got a great story and you've got a great product
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um Love to bring you on the show and bring that education awareness to the people.

(01:08:47):
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We'd love to have you on to our human stories are a really important part of the show.
um Shoot us an email at healthcare, uprising at gmail.com.
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(01:09:15):
So keep looking for the good in the world.
Sometimes it's where you least expect it.

(01:10:17):
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