May 2, 2025 • 39 mins
Dr. LaNail R. Plummer is not just a mental health powerhouse—she’s a revolution in motion. In this rich and intentional conversation, we dive into how she’s built a life aligned with her values as a veteran, CEO of Onyx Therapy Group, Chair of Counseling at Trinity Washington University, and a proud bisexual Black woman.
Topics we cover:
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The power of intentional communication
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Parenting with purpose and presence
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Her personal and spiritual journey to coming out
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How core beliefs are shaped—and reshaped—in therapy
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The alchemy of feminine energy and why it’s so transformative
Dr. Plummer’s clarity, strength, and compassion are truly unforgettable.
🧠 “You always know how to circle it back,” her father once told her—and in this episode, she does just that.
🔗 Subscribe and listen now for a deeply moving, deeply human conversation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to How I Ally.
I'm Lucinda Koza and I have a very esteemed guest here, and I would like for you to please introduce yourself and give a bit of a backstory.
Absolutely.
Oh, I'm so excited to be here.
So my name is Dr.
LaNail Plummer.
(00:21):
I am the CEO of Onyx Therapy Group, which is a mental health company headquartered in DC Which offices in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Johannesburg, South Africa.
And I am also the department chair.
Of counseling at Trinity Washington University, which is a university that's based in Washington DC and it historically was designed for women.
(00:47):
And it has that we welcome men now as well.
But men have always been welcomed into our graduate programs.
But I get to have two full-time jobs that I absolutely love.
Both centered on mental health.
Yeah.
That's in incre the.
That feels like more than two full-time jobs.
(01:09):
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
But it is, it works perfectly.
And I think on top of that, I'm a partner, I have a wife and I have two big kids, but they're 21 and almost 18.
But this is the life.
This is the life that I've designed and I love it.
And I live it and I love it.
Yeah.
It's it's the dream.
(01:29):
It is.
Yeah, that's, congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being here.
Yeah.
What I really loved and admired about your interview was you, you don't waste words, it seems.
(01:54):
Yes.
You, every word is chosen.
Yes.
Carefully.
Yes.
Yes, it is true.
I, I am very intentional with what I say and how I say it.
You know what's funny though is that I want to get better at pausing between.
(02:16):
My responses, but I am very intentional about the words that I use.
You wanna know something funny? I am currently using an app called Word of the Day because I wanna increase my vocabulary.
And I have a pretty strong vocabulary and and of course a lot of mental health jargon, a lot of academic and counselor educator jargon.
(02:38):
But in my day-to-day, I wanna increase my vocabulary.
So I've been working on that daily, but I am quite intentional with the words that I use and how I use them, because I do believe that words are powerful and I think that words they clearly.
Create a message and we have to be careful with how we use our words.
(02:58):
We have to be careful with the intentions and careful with the tone.
Some people just use words in a very flippant kind of way and then end up spending a lot of time having to.
Correct some of the things that they said or having to fix some of the rifts that they caused because of their words or having to stand 10 toes down on something that they may not actually believe, but they said it, and they don't, their ego is too big to go back and apologize.
(03:26):
And so instead of having to spend time, wait, wasting time in a lot of corrective manner.
I prefer to just be intentional with the time that I use and the wor the words that I use, because as we talked about, I don't have a whole lot of time, so I can't spend hours trying to process something that I accidentally said, and it hurts someone's feelings, right? Let me just be intentional with what I'm saying, how I'm saying it and make sure that it's true to what I think and what I feel.
(03:56):
Yeah.
And I'm writing the book too two books, right? So the first book will be out in just a couple months.
But even in writing, working with my editors have been amazing in semantics and syntax around how words are used, what's being communicated, and making sure that it's accurate and intentional.
That, that.
(04:17):
It seems, oh, that seems very hard.
It's always been who I've been though, I've always been a communicator.
I, my report cards used to say great student, very astute and talks too much because I need to talk to people.
I'm an extrovert.
(04:38):
I wanna know about people's lives.
I wanna know about their experiences.
I wanna know about their strengths and their challenges, and their successes and their mistakes, and.
And to get people to, to feel relatable and comfortable enough to communicate some of those things with me, I have to be intentional.
And so I'm 44 years old, so I probably, as long as I've been talking, I've probably been intentional about my words.
(05:03):
Yeah.
And my dad he said to me just recently.
You always know how to circle it back, right? And so you, he said, you've always done that.
You've always known how to do that.
So I think that's a testament to the fact that I've probably am very skilled in this thing here called intentional communication because I've been doing it for so long and intentionally refining it along the way.
(05:26):
That's such a, an incredible skill.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And yeah, and it's, I feel I feel like I am.
Very intentional with my words, but I take pauses and it drives people crazy.
(05:48):
Oh yeah.
I actually wanna take more pauses.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I wanna take more pauses.
One, I'm introducing new vocabulary words, right? So that takes a little bit of time because.
Just as schematic framework, we tend to use the words that we're most familiar with, and so the introduction of new words can be a challenge.
(06:12):
But, I wanna make sure that I'm constantly communicating the depth of my thought and not just the original thought.
And if I just communicate the original thought and I process out loud, I end up spending more time talking than necessary because I'm processing and getting to the depth as opposed to just taking a beat and starting with depth.
(06:34):
I'm not a shallow person, as you could probably tell from this conversation.
I don't do shallow conversation very well.
I go deep rather quickly, but I want to continue to refine that the way I figured I'm 44, maybe I'm halfway through my life.
So I have, at least another four decades ahead of me to continue to refine.
(06:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so you're in LA I live in DC now and I'm from la I live, right? Oh yeah.
I live I'm from la, my beautiful home state of California.
Yes.
Wow.
So what? So what? Okay.
(07:17):
I'm such an east coaster and I spent a little bit of time in California.
So do you feel like the East Coast is home at all? Let's see how deep we wanna go with this.
Deep.
Deep.
Okay.
Let's go deep.
California is my home.
That's where it all started for me.
(07:39):
That's where I became the person that I am.
The California is.
So me, I just recently purchased a new car and the first song I played when I got in the car, the first set of songs I played were songs from home because they were songs that connect me.
So I'm that Cali girl, right? But I left when I was almost 14 years old to go live with my dad in Korea.
(08:06):
My parents had made a decision that it was time for me to live internationally, to be exposed to other cultures which was phenomenal for me.
It created my love for dance.
I don't dance well, but I love to dance.
It created my my love for art and and humanities and literature.
Living internationally and subsequently continue to travel.
(08:29):
But I made the decision and I, so I lived in Korea and then I graduated high school in Hawaii.
So a very, a another very culturally immersed experience.
For me.
I made the decision to come to the East coast at 17.
Actually I made the decision to aim for the East Coast at 11 and then at 17 is when I actually came here to attend Howard University and I was at Howard University and in the ROTC program at the time of nine 11.
(09:02):
And so I was at that point slated to.
To serve the United States Army.
And so that's how I spent my 21st birthday, right? Receiving that information and and preparing my mind and body for what was to come at the time.
The property value on the East Coast was really good.
And so as a young soldier, I had more money than I had expected to have, and I was, had a budding career.
(09:28):
And it just made sense to get into real estate as a young person as opposed to wasting away the money and the resources that were there.
And so I served the United States Army and bought property, bought a property here.
And then shortly after I had my daughter and then I had my son.
So the East Coast will always be a second home for me.
(09:49):
Just like you have people with their primary residence and then they have maybe a vacation home, or they have their family's home and they each home.
Is sentimental and has value to their life, but for different reasons.
So Cali is my heart, and DC is where I became a woman.
DC is where I made my first major decisions for myself.
(10:10):
It's where I made the decision to, attend school to further my education.
I'm the first in my family to get an education and I went all the way up to the doctoral level to be a role model for my children and my cousins.
And most of my cousins that are from California are actually now here on the East Coast attending college in those same footsteps.
So ca the East Coast is a second home.
(10:32):
It is where my children have been birthed.
It is where my family has grown.
It is where I've broken generational cycles.
It is where I've established my business and a professional name for myself.
It is where my community is here also.
So I am both a West coast girl and a East coast girl.
Now my West Coast family, they'll tell me that I'm not from Cali anymore.
(10:55):
They'll tease me about it because of my accent has changed or because I just don't know California the way I used to.
But but it's all in jest because they know Cali is in my heart.
But so is the East coast.
This Maryland, DC area is extremely special to me.
That was such a good answer.
(11:17):
Thank you.
That was beautiful.
And I understand I'm from South Carolina.
So of course there's this, there's this part of me that just aches for it.
Yeah.
But I know that I can't.
(11:39):
I can't.
Oh, I can't.
Yeah.
I just can't.
Yeah.
It's just too problematic.
Yeah.
Of a place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in all fairness, I think that's one of the reasons why I continue to have my love and infatuation for California because.
(12:01):
For me as an individual packaged in this body that I believe the universe created specifically for me the West coast and California in particular, continues to support my own values and my own identity.
So I never feel silenced that was never, as a black woman there.
And just having finished wr writing the book, I did so much research and I had so much of my own identity wrapped up into some of the content as well as the clients that I work with, but oftentimes women and black people, and at the intersection of that black women are forced into silence.
(12:38):
And I think that, my teachers had the best intentions when they I think they.
They consciously had the best intentions where they would say I talk too much, but my talking wasn't actually problematic in the classroom.
They just weren't used to people like me talking as much as I did and having opinions.
And I was a sponge and continue to be a sponge for information.
(12:58):
I am a part of a couple of book clubs and I read, about three to four books a month and I teach and so I'm reading texts and I'm teaching that to my students as well.
But on average, people like me are not designed, are not supported in expression of thoughts, in expression of opinion, in challenging thoughts.
(13:19):
From a psychologically safe place, black women are not always included in spaces or if they are, they're not always allowed to be contributors or challengers in content and context.
And while they're able to learn, they can't always challenge and.
And and such, it so that, but when I'm in California and at different points while I was in California I didn't feel the same level of silence.
(13:46):
And even now when I go home, I feel supported.
Like I don't have the same fears that I may have if I'm in a different country or if I'm in a different region of the United States.
And then identifying as a bisexual woman was also a place where I had to be conscious.
Of what was going on in my world what was going on around me and how I was gonna be strategic and using my voice and my experiences for advocacy, but also for protection for me and my family and the people that are coming behind me.
(14:20):
Oh my gosh, yes.
Yes.
When you were in the military, were you out? I wasn't out.
I didn't go, I didn't come out officially until I was 33, so about 11 years ago.
Last year was my anniversary, if you will.
I.
Of coming out.
(14:40):
Now, here's the thing, I always knew that I had a thing for girls.
I always knew I had a thing for girls, but I was born in the eighties and that just wasn't allowed.
And once my mom was able to gain sobriety in her life she got really deep into church and into religion and, the churches that we were going to.
(15:04):
Their messaging around homosexuality, bisexuality wasn't even a thing that they talked about, but their messages around homosexuality were so drastically negative and severe that it pushed me further back into the closet.
The other thing that's important is that right now a lot of people in my generation.
(15:26):
Are able to have children with with support, right? Like with IVF and and things like that.
But that wasn't the, that wasn't even on my purview when I was younger.
I didn't even know things like that happened, right? And so I.
I knew I wanted to have children.
I knew that I wanted to have a family, and I thought that the only way I could do that was through a heterosexual relationship.
(15:53):
So I fully identify as bisexual, but my my, my love, my preference have always been centered on engagements.
With women.
So being in spaces with women learning with women teaching with women.
My company Onyx is predominantly women.
(16:13):
It's, we're just shy of 40 and we have three men in the company.
So the power and the alchemy that comes from feminine energy has always drawn me in.
So I wasn't out while I was in the military.
And I came out a few years after that.
I wasn't out publicly.
My, my closest friends in my family knew, but, but I wasn't out publicly and I came out publicly on Facebook.
(16:39):
No way.
Way totally.
That's incredible.
Yep.
How did that go? Oh, woo.
My daddy called me and he said.
Sweetheart, why didn't you tell me that you were gonna tell the whole world? Because now everybody is calling me and I don't even know what they're talking about.
(17:01):
He wasn't on Facebook at the time and and I was like, oh dad, I just didn't feel like telling everybody individually and things like that.
Like it just made sense to make it public.
My family was on there, friends are on there.
High school folks, college folks.
And so ultimately it went really well.
Of course I lost people in my life.
People didn't want to continue to engage with me or hang out.
(17:25):
For some reason, I think they thought my character changed because of the, i, because of the announcement of my sexuality.
'cause my sexuality was the same, even when I was in friendship with them.
They just didn't know it.
Yeah.
But ultimately I think it went well.
I don't know if I would necessarily recommend that same approach for anyone, but it worked out well for me.
(17:49):
It's like a fuck it.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's exactly what it was.
That's exactly what it was.
I was like, you all are just gonna have to find out like this because, and manage your feelings.
In doing it on social media, it meant that people had the opportunity to think and process independently.
I don't, my sexuality belongs to me and I don't necessarily need to.
(18:10):
Hold space for your feelings about my sexuality.
I don't hold space.
I don't, you don't hold space for, I don't I.
Because you are saying, because you are because a person is heterosexual.
That's just a given.
But because I'm bisexual, people are, have all these thoughts and these feelings and like I'm supposed to do something about it.
And I'm not changing my, I'm not, I clearly can't change my sexuality.
(18:33):
This is how I was born, but I'm not changing the expression of my sexuality to make somebody else feel comfortable because in that process, I'm gonna be uncomfortable and I have to live in my skin and I have to live in my life and with my body.
And like we started this podcast, I live a life of my dreams and I can't do that if I am suppressing part of who I am.
And that was actually a very spiritual moment for me because I.
(18:57):
While I love and appreciate religion, all religions I definitely find myself to be far more spiritual.
And I remember there being a moment with me and God in conversation in prayer.
I.
Where God told me, how am I supposed to bless you? We pray for abundance and we pray for, to be aligned and we pray for clarity and all the things.
(19:21):
And God, it, it was like God was telling me.
How am I supposed to give you those things that you won't even appreciate The gift that I gave you, like the gift that gave you was your full identity.
The gift I gave you was being a black bisexual woman.
Like how do you deny part of who you are and then ask for more? And that's like a.
(19:42):
In raising these children.
That's similar in a pathway.
If I gave my children a gift and they never used that gift, but then they asked me for something else, I would be like how and why should I give you something more if what I have given you, you don't even appreciate? And so I, it was in that timeframe that I decided to make the announcement that I was bisexual because.
(20:04):
This is how I'm made.
This is my gift.
This is what God wants for me.
And my life has transformed in amazing, beautiful ways since I came out.
And again, this is my story, right? That may not be the story for everyone.
But when I am doing work around L-G-B-T-Q identity, which I will continue to do no matter how much people are trying to suppress our, suppress us.
(20:32):
As I'm doing that work, I say that people have to be strategic when they come out, how they come out what they say.
But ultimately, to live a life of authenticity for me is a gift from God.
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Thank you.
And so many people need to hear that right now.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I can't, like the, I think the theme that's running through the conversation we're having here is I can't be silenced the world.
We will try to silence me in different ways, and it's up to me to decide if I'm gonna lean into that or not.
And at this moment it is still very safe for me as a person to be outspoken and to be bold.
(21:15):
And again, I recognize that for some people they can't do that.
Not because they lack desire or motivation or will, but just because for them it is a comp.
They are compromising their physical safety.
And so people have to be strategic with when they make those decisions.
And because I have what, we sometimes consider passing privilege within the L-G-B-T-Q community.
(21:39):
I actually come out far more than my wife does.
So people will look at her and likely, question or assume that she is part of the L-G-B-T-Q community.
That is not my case.
So people consistently assume that I have a husband as opposed to a wife.
So I am, I come out very often.
Very frequently.
(22:01):
Wow.
Wow.
I actually, I don't know if I've ever even thought about that before, about having to come out.
Over and over again.
Yeah.
Like on a daily basis to so many different people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
It is who I am.
It is what I do.
(22:21):
And some people are taken aback and surprised because they still have limited and ignorant thoughts around what a bisexual or a lesbian person looks like.
Or what they can do.
I've had, I am currently the department chair at Trinity Washington University, but my academic position prior to that was at Johns Hopkins.
(22:41):
And some of my students would come to me and say, you are one of my best and favorite professors.
Because you are so authentically, you, there were so many students who were struggling with their identity and were hearing messages that a person in the L-G-B-T-Q community couldn't be successful.
That, we were not gonna be able to get the jobs that we wanted to have, or we were not gonna be able to have the careers that we wanted to have, or.
(23:07):
We wouldn't be able to have the families that we dreamt about or we wouldn't be able to travel in the ways that we wanted because of our identity.
And I'm living testimony that is not true.
And so I think beyond teaching them the curriculum and the content of the textbooks, or preparation for exams and working with clients they also learned to be themselves.
And that it, at least, at the very least in my classroom, it was the safest place for them to truly be who they wanted to be, who they knew that they were.
(23:36):
That's just that's such a gift to give.
I remember this whole quote that from RuPaul.
He said I bat my.
Fake eyelashes, and it's a political statement.
Yeah, it just made me think about how just existing, just existing and opening my mouth is already an act of defiance.
(24:03):
Yes.
That's right.
That's right.
Oh, I got chills when you said it.
My, my total being is a revolution.
I revolt daily against systems and socialization standards.
I revolt against certain gender norms.
I revolt against the limits that people place on me.
(24:25):
Yeah and to be honest with you, there are times when I re vote against limits that I put on myself.
In those moments where doubt seeps in and tries to take up the space of what confi, where confidence is designed to be.
So I revo against the natural feeling of doubt as it comes.
(24:48):
Yeah.
It's like that external voice from somewhere, from society from.
So my mom, someone, that never really goes away.
Yeah.
And yeah, it's just always there.
(25:10):
Yeah.
It is true.
It is true.
From a psychological perspective, we think about that as our core beliefs.
And those core beliefs are oftentimes.
Created during our early childhood, and it's oftentimes the voices of.
The adults and the elders that are around us that are helping to shape our original thoughts in therapy.
(25:32):
We get to decide whether we're going to continue with those beliefs or whether we're going to shift those beliefs.
But in shifting and shedding those beliefs, it takes work because where there was once a core belief.
If we remove it without replacing it with something else, it leaves a gap and then an it leaves room for another negative belief to set in.
(25:53):
So therapy is important, and the frequency of engagement in therapy is important because if we're shifting and we're removing aspects of our thinking and our being, then we have to quickly be able to replace it.
It's if there's a wound in the body, if it gets cleaned out but we don't cover it or we don't put gauze in it, then it's then the infection, another infection can come.
(26:16):
And if you clean it out and get it out, you have to cover it up and protect it and heal it or cover it up and protect it so that it could heal with the newness and with the purity of what is now there.
Oof.
It's like the universe doesn't like a vacuum.
Yeah.
Oh, whoa.
(26:39):
Oh yeah.
So how do you help? How do you help people? Fill the hole, the gap.
Yeah.
That's probably a big question.
It's quite, it is quite layered.
(27:00):
I have a post-it here that someone recently told me I was meeting with them or doing some work and they were like, Hey, Dr.
Plummer, you're an enhancer.
So I wrote this, post-it on.
My wrote it on a post-it and I have it here in the office to remind me of who I am in those moments.
(27:22):
So to be honest with you.
Filling those gaps with people is dependent on who that person is and how much time I have with them and what their role is in my life, and I don't always intend to do that.
I don't walk into a conversation intending to, to heal or to cleanse or to purify or to reset and restructure, like I don't, that's not always my intention, right? Of course, in my therapy sessions, 100%, that is what my counselor, my clients are there ready for.
(27:58):
And in supervision with my counselors, they know that there is going to be some education that's involved, and that may mean that we have to dispel certain myths or we have to change certain thoughts and philosophies that we have when it comes to clinical work.
But in a normal day-to-day conversation with a person, I am just me.
I hear what they are saying and I hear what they're, what, how they're expressing themselves through their nonverbals.
(28:23):
I can pick up on people's energy really well.
I'm a therapist, right? So I read people's body language and things like that.
And depending on the circumstance, I'll decide if I'm gonna say something or not.
And what I'm gonna say with the intention of with the focus of intentionality, I.
(28:45):
I decide if it's best for me to say something in that moment or not.
And if I decide that I'm not gonna say something in that moment, then I usually ask the universe or asking God to give another opportunity for me to engage with that person where it may be a better time to say something or that the universe gives them, that gives that person that message that they need, but gives it to them in a gentle way.
(29:07):
I don't want people to learn lessons through harshness.
I'd rather them.
Learn lessons through gentle gentle engagement and reminders.
Now, some people need a little harshness.
That's their personalities, right? But that's not necessarily how I would want something to be delivered, and I'm direct, so I'm aware of that as well.
(29:28):
One of my prayers, constant prayers for years has been to be a vessel of of God and of communication.
Okay.
That's another reason that I think I hear and see what needs to be heard and said.
And also I hear what has not been said.
So some people are intentional about refraining from saying certain things, and I pick up on that as well.
(29:52):
And I'm all, I'm curious with what people say, but I'm also curious with what they chose not to say, because that is powerful as well.
That is very powerful.
That is so true.
Thank you.
(30:14):
That is so interesting.
Yeah.
In, in relationships I.
I have 2-year-old twins.
Yay.
How adorable.
Yes.
But so much is coming up, it, I have a boy and a girl and it's just, it's interesting my boys, he has so much energy and he's rowdy and he is like loud and he just doesn't know what to do with himself.
(30:48):
And sometimes he throws something and like it hits his sister.
And of course for me that's like alarms, like oh my God.
I can't allow this to happen in like this home has to be safe.
But then I have this other voice that's he's just two years old.
(31:09):
Don't, you can't, what are you going to do? So it's just, all of that stuff is coming up.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Yeah.
There, there is different there can be different energies between boys and girls, and of course their brains are designed slightly different and we have different hormones in our body that will influence, brain development and physical development.
(31:33):
And so psychosocial development.
But in those situations, you're right.
Like you can't, how far extreme can you go? What he learns best as, as a 2-year-old is through conversation and through physical redirection.
And that's because he's a sponge at this point, like we talked about a few minutes ago.
(31:54):
A lot of our core beliefs are based off of what our parents and our elders told us.
And so you are blessed to be in this space now with him where you are the parent, right? You are the elder, and you get to set his core beliefs.
And I recognize even in raising my own children that the things that we say.
To them matter so much.
My daughter can recall she went through a phase about a year or so ago, two years, between a year to two years ago where she was angry with me and she was angry with me for five things that I said to her at across 19 years of her life.
(32:29):
She's 21 now, but it was five things that I said that she could not, are five things I did that she could not release, but only five out of 19 years because I'm so intentional.
But those are the things that they remember and we can't, there is no perfection.
That is really a fantasy.
That is a movie.
You know what I mean? That's not reality.
(32:51):
So there's no room for perfection, but there is room for intentionality and there's room for, for sitting back and thinking what kind of parent we wanna be in this situation with your son, he throws something.
If he intentionally threw it at his sister, then that's the time for a discipline.
And discipline is nothing but learning lessons, right? It's not supposed to be physical harm, but that's a moment for a opportunity for him to learn a lesson through discipline.
(33:18):
Or if, he didn't intentionally try to hit her with that item, then it's an opportunity to also teach him what to do with his hands and where these items are supposed to be.
And so when the kids are so small, they're so much teaching that's involved at this point.
When they get older, I'm an advisor to my children.
They consult with me, but I am not teaching the same to the same degree.
(33:41):
But when they were small, I was very much.
Present and in their face around which lessons were important for them to learn how they needed to learn them, and how to lean in on each other.
Yeah.
It's like the same thing.
I can't just tell him No, I have to fill that No.
With something.
(34:03):
Yes.
Yes.
When I teach parenting classes, I teach a lot.
I do a lot, right? I know.
Oh my God.
Like girl, you teach parenting classes too? Yes, I do.
But when I teach parents in classes I remind parents that no, and not, we use, we call those the negative words.
Cannot, will not, do not, should not, and know these words.
(34:26):
Are stoppers, but they, but they're not replacers.
So if you tell a child don't run, they are likely then going to skip or they are going to hop, or they're gonna do a handstand, or they're gonna do a cartwheel.
But what we really want to tell them is walk, yes.
If we want to say walk, then we need to be intentional in saying walk.
(34:50):
Because if we say don't run, we assume that they know what the alternative is.
But as little children with limited worldview, they don't know all the possibilities and options that they have.
They just go into what feels good to them.
If they're running, it's likely because they have this pent up energy that needs to be expelled.
So in those situations, it's important for a parent.
(35:12):
If they say, don't run, they also say what the child can do.
Or they just say what the child can do.
Now is the time for walking.
We will run when we go to the park, or now is the time for skipping.
We will do handstands when we are at home and we have pillows around us to keep our bodies safe.
(35:33):
So again, it goes back to the intentional communication.
So that people know what they need.
And the same applies.
Funny enough, the same applies for our partners and our spouses.
Not that they are children at any means.
So some may be emotionally immature, but that is also an opportunity for our us to teach our partners what our boundaries are through positive setting as opposed to negative setting.
(36:01):
When I am tired, I need help in the kitchen.
As opposed to you never could, you never help me in the kitchen.
And that makes me so angry.
Or, when I have rough days like this, I.
I need to be held and I need you to hold my hand and give me words of affirmation as opposed to, you never say nice things to me and we don't even connect the way we used to anymore.
(36:24):
That, that is so out of context.
Right? And we are assuming that the other person knows exactly what that means.
And while we want to have.
Emotional connections to our partners, and we want them to read our minds.
That's really not fair because they have their own mind that they are still trying to read.
And and they have their own beliefs that they are still trying to decide if this is correct for them at this stage of life or if it's not.
(36:49):
And so to put to, to make one person who's still thinking through their thoughts, responsible for knowing our thoughts that we have not even expressed is is unfair.
The same kind of concept, but with a different audience a partner or a spouse versus a child.
And with different understanding, recognizing that because they're different audiences, they have different worldviews.
(37:10):
Wow.
That is so helpful.
Yeah.
They have their own brain that they're just trying to work with.
Oh man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface.
We have talked about what we need to talk about and the audience will hear what they need to hear.
(37:35):
And so that's right.
That's right.
That is the beautiful thing about it.
Sometimes I listen to podcasts and I don't even know what I'm truly thinking I'm listening to, and then I have this aha moment.
Yeah.
And it's a mind blow, right? Oh, I didn't even know I needed to hear that.
Oh, that's what I've been needing.
That's my thought that I've been having.
Oh, that's the correction, or, oh, that's the behavior.
(37:57):
And it, it comes in very unexpected ways.
That's again, what I consider the alchemy of feminine energy.
When feminine energy is in the same space.
Sharing space.
Yes.
Magical.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you so much.
You're incredible.
(38:18):
Thank you and so are you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And yay to your twins.
How beautiful.
Like I said, mine are on the other end.
My daughter just turned 21.
My son will be 18 in a couple of weeks, and and I'm preparing for empty nesting.
Yeah.
(38:38):
Oh, man.
Wow.
I dunno what I'm gonna do.
I know.
I don't know.
I have no, wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's my oldest calling me right now.
You know how the watch will tell you, but she's 21 and still.
Values me.
(38:59):
Like I said, she had a difficult time for a couple of years, but we were intentional in working through that.
So it's beautiful to see how the relationship will continue to grow as she, stays in adulthood.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Thank you.
She's lucky to have you.
(39:19):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Every you said that.
Yeah.
I would tell that you said that.
Absolutely.
Good.
Welcome to How I Ally.
I'm Lucinda Koza and I have a very esteemed guest here, and I would like for you to please introduce yourself and give a bit of a backstory.
Absolutely.
Oh, I'm so excited to be here.
So my name is Dr.
LaNail Plummer.
(00:21):
I am the CEO of Onyx Therapy Group, which is a mental health company headquartered in DC Which offices in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Johannesburg, South Africa.
And I am also the department chair.
Of counseling at Trinity Washington University, which is a university that's based in Washington DC and it historically was designed for women.
(00:47):
And it has that we welcome men now as well.
But men have always been welcomed into our graduate programs.
But I get to have two full-time jobs that I absolutely love.
Both centered on mental health.
Yeah.
That's in incre the.
That feels like more than two full-time jobs.
(01:09):
It's a lot.
It's a lot.
But it is, it works perfectly.
And I think on top of that, I'm a partner, I have a wife and I have two big kids, but they're 21 and almost 18.
But this is the life.
This is the life that I've designed and I love it.
And I live it and I love it.
Yeah.
It's it's the dream.
(01:29):
It is.
Yeah, that's, congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being here.
Yeah.
What I really loved and admired about your interview was you, you don't waste words, it seems.
(01:54):
Yes.
You, every word is chosen.
Yes.
Carefully.
Yes.
Yes, it is true.
I, I am very intentional with what I say and how I say it.
You know what's funny though is that I want to get better at pausing between.
(02:16):
My responses, but I am very intentional about the words that I use.
You wanna know something funny? I am currently using an app called Word of the Day because I wanna increase my vocabulary.
And I have a pretty strong vocabulary and and of course a lot of mental health jargon, a lot of academic and counselor educator jargon.
(02:38):
But in my day-to-day, I wanna increase my vocabulary.
So I've been working on that daily, but I am quite intentional with the words that I use and how I use them, because I do believe that words are powerful and I think that words they clearly.
Create a message and we have to be careful with how we use our words.
(02:58):
We have to be careful with the intentions and careful with the tone.
Some people just use words in a very flippant kind of way and then end up spending a lot of time having to.
Correct some of the things that they said or having to fix some of the rifts that they caused because of their words or having to stand 10 toes down on something that they may not actually believe, but they said it, and they don't, their ego is too big to go back and apologize.
(03:26):
And so instead of having to spend time, wait, wasting time in a lot of corrective manner.
I prefer to just be intentional with the time that I use and the wor the words that I use, because as we talked about, I don't have a whole lot of time, so I can't spend hours trying to process something that I accidentally said, and it hurts someone's feelings, right? Let me just be intentional with what I'm saying, how I'm saying it and make sure that it's true to what I think and what I feel.
(03:56):
Yeah.
And I'm writing the book too two books, right? So the first book will be out in just a couple months.
But even in writing, working with my editors have been amazing in semantics and syntax around how words are used, what's being communicated, and making sure that it's accurate and intentional.
That, that.
(04:17):
It seems, oh, that seems very hard.
It's always been who I've been though, I've always been a communicator.
I, my report cards used to say great student, very astute and talks too much because I need to talk to people.
I'm an extrovert.
(04:38):
I wanna know about people's lives.
I wanna know about their experiences.
I wanna know about their strengths and their challenges, and their successes and their mistakes, and.
And to get people to, to feel relatable and comfortable enough to communicate some of those things with me, I have to be intentional.
And so I'm 44 years old, so I probably, as long as I've been talking, I've probably been intentional about my words.
(05:03):
Yeah.
And my dad he said to me just recently.
You always know how to circle it back, right? And so you, he said, you've always done that.
You've always known how to do that.
So I think that's a testament to the fact that I've probably am very skilled in this thing here called intentional communication because I've been doing it for so long and intentionally refining it along the way.
(05:26):
That's such a, an incredible skill.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And yeah, and it's, I feel I feel like I am.
Very intentional with my words, but I take pauses and it drives people crazy.
(05:48):
Oh yeah.
I actually wanna take more pauses.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
I wanna take more pauses.
One, I'm introducing new vocabulary words, right? So that takes a little bit of time because.
Just as schematic framework, we tend to use the words that we're most familiar with, and so the introduction of new words can be a challenge.
(06:12):
But, I wanna make sure that I'm constantly communicating the depth of my thought and not just the original thought.
And if I just communicate the original thought and I process out loud, I end up spending more time talking than necessary because I'm processing and getting to the depth as opposed to just taking a beat and starting with depth.
(06:34):
I'm not a shallow person, as you could probably tell from this conversation.
I don't do shallow conversation very well.
I go deep rather quickly, but I want to continue to refine that the way I figured I'm 44, maybe I'm halfway through my life.
So I have, at least another four decades ahead of me to continue to refine.
(06:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so you're in LA I live in DC now and I'm from la I live, right? Oh yeah.
I live I'm from la, my beautiful home state of California.
Yes.
Wow.
So what? So what? Okay.
(07:17):
I'm such an east coaster and I spent a little bit of time in California.
So do you feel like the East Coast is home at all? Let's see how deep we wanna go with this.
Deep.
Deep.
Okay.
Let's go deep.
California is my home.
That's where it all started for me.
(07:39):
That's where I became the person that I am.
The California is.
So me, I just recently purchased a new car and the first song I played when I got in the car, the first set of songs I played were songs from home because they were songs that connect me.
So I'm that Cali girl, right? But I left when I was almost 14 years old to go live with my dad in Korea.
(08:06):
My parents had made a decision that it was time for me to live internationally, to be exposed to other cultures which was phenomenal for me.
It created my love for dance.
I don't dance well, but I love to dance.
It created my my love for art and and humanities and literature.
Living internationally and subsequently continue to travel.
(08:29):
But I made the decision and I, so I lived in Korea and then I graduated high school in Hawaii.
So a very, a another very culturally immersed experience.
For me.
I made the decision to come to the East coast at 17.
Actually I made the decision to aim for the East Coast at 11 and then at 17 is when I actually came here to attend Howard University and I was at Howard University and in the ROTC program at the time of nine 11.
(09:02):
And so I was at that point slated to.
To serve the United States Army.
And so that's how I spent my 21st birthday, right? Receiving that information and and preparing my mind and body for what was to come at the time.
The property value on the East Coast was really good.
And so as a young soldier, I had more money than I had expected to have, and I was, had a budding career.
(09:28):
And it just made sense to get into real estate as a young person as opposed to wasting away the money and the resources that were there.
And so I served the United States Army and bought property, bought a property here.
And then shortly after I had my daughter and then I had my son.
So the East Coast will always be a second home for me.
(09:49):
Just like you have people with their primary residence and then they have maybe a vacation home, or they have their family's home and they each home.
Is sentimental and has value to their life, but for different reasons.
So Cali is my heart, and DC is where I became a woman.
DC is where I made my first major decisions for myself.
(10:10):
It's where I made the decision to, attend school to further my education.
I'm the first in my family to get an education and I went all the way up to the doctoral level to be a role model for my children and my cousins.
And most of my cousins that are from California are actually now here on the East Coast attending college in those same footsteps.
So ca the East Coast is a second home.
(10:32):
It is where my children have been birthed.
It is where my family has grown.
It is where I've broken generational cycles.
It is where I've established my business and a professional name for myself.
It is where my community is here also.
So I am both a West coast girl and a East coast girl.
Now my West Coast family, they'll tell me that I'm not from Cali anymore.
(10:55):
They'll tease me about it because of my accent has changed or because I just don't know California the way I used to.
But but it's all in jest because they know Cali is in my heart.
But so is the East coast.
This Maryland, DC area is extremely special to me.
That was such a good answer.
(11:17):
Thank you.
That was beautiful.
And I understand I'm from South Carolina.
So of course there's this, there's this part of me that just aches for it.
Yeah.
But I know that I can't.
(11:39):
I can't.
Oh, I can't.
Yeah.
I just can't.
Yeah.
It's just too problematic.
Yeah.
Of a place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in all fairness, I think that's one of the reasons why I continue to have my love and infatuation for California because.
(12:01):
For me as an individual packaged in this body that I believe the universe created specifically for me the West coast and California in particular, continues to support my own values and my own identity.
So I never feel silenced that was never, as a black woman there.
And just having finished wr writing the book, I did so much research and I had so much of my own identity wrapped up into some of the content as well as the clients that I work with, but oftentimes women and black people, and at the intersection of that black women are forced into silence.
(12:38):
And I think that, my teachers had the best intentions when they I think they.
They consciously had the best intentions where they would say I talk too much, but my talking wasn't actually problematic in the classroom.
They just weren't used to people like me talking as much as I did and having opinions.
And I was a sponge and continue to be a sponge for information.
(12:58):
I am a part of a couple of book clubs and I read, about three to four books a month and I teach and so I'm reading texts and I'm teaching that to my students as well.
But on average, people like me are not designed, are not supported in expression of thoughts, in expression of opinion, in challenging thoughts.
(13:19):
From a psychologically safe place, black women are not always included in spaces or if they are, they're not always allowed to be contributors or challengers in content and context.
And while they're able to learn, they can't always challenge and.
And and such, it so that, but when I'm in California and at different points while I was in California I didn't feel the same level of silence.
(13:46):
And even now when I go home, I feel supported.
Like I don't have the same fears that I may have if I'm in a different country or if I'm in a different region of the United States.
And then identifying as a bisexual woman was also a place where I had to be conscious.
Of what was going on in my world what was going on around me and how I was gonna be strategic and using my voice and my experiences for advocacy, but also for protection for me and my family and the people that are coming behind me.
(14:20):
Oh my gosh, yes.
Yes.
When you were in the military, were you out? I wasn't out.
I didn't go, I didn't come out officially until I was 33, so about 11 years ago.
Last year was my anniversary, if you will.
I.
Of coming out.
(14:40):
Now, here's the thing, I always knew that I had a thing for girls.
I always knew I had a thing for girls, but I was born in the eighties and that just wasn't allowed.
And once my mom was able to gain sobriety in her life she got really deep into church and into religion and, the churches that we were going to.
(15:04):
Their messaging around homosexuality, bisexuality wasn't even a thing that they talked about, but their messages around homosexuality were so drastically negative and severe that it pushed me further back into the closet.
The other thing that's important is that right now a lot of people in my generation.
(15:26):
Are able to have children with with support, right? Like with IVF and and things like that.
But that wasn't the, that wasn't even on my purview when I was younger.
I didn't even know things like that happened, right? And so I.
I knew I wanted to have children.
I knew that I wanted to have a family, and I thought that the only way I could do that was through a heterosexual relationship.
(15:53):
So I fully identify as bisexual, but my my, my love, my preference have always been centered on engagements.
With women.
So being in spaces with women learning with women teaching with women.
My company Onyx is predominantly women.
(16:13):
It's, we're just shy of 40 and we have three men in the company.
So the power and the alchemy that comes from feminine energy has always drawn me in.
So I wasn't out while I was in the military.
And I came out a few years after that.
I wasn't out publicly.
My, my closest friends in my family knew, but, but I wasn't out publicly and I came out publicly on Facebook.
(16:39):
No way.
Way totally.
That's incredible.
Yep.
How did that go? Oh, woo.
My daddy called me and he said.
Sweetheart, why didn't you tell me that you were gonna tell the whole world? Because now everybody is calling me and I don't even know what they're talking about.
(17:01):
He wasn't on Facebook at the time and and I was like, oh dad, I just didn't feel like telling everybody individually and things like that.
Like it just made sense to make it public.
My family was on there, friends are on there.
High school folks, college folks.
And so ultimately it went really well.
Of course I lost people in my life.
People didn't want to continue to engage with me or hang out.
(17:25):
For some reason, I think they thought my character changed because of the, i, because of the announcement of my sexuality.
'cause my sexuality was the same, even when I was in friendship with them.
They just didn't know it.
Yeah.
But ultimately I think it went well.
I don't know if I would necessarily recommend that same approach for anyone, but it worked out well for me.
(17:49):
It's like a fuck it.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's exactly what it was.
That's exactly what it was.
I was like, you all are just gonna have to find out like this because, and manage your feelings.
In doing it on social media, it meant that people had the opportunity to think and process independently.
I don't, my sexuality belongs to me and I don't necessarily need to.
(18:10):
Hold space for your feelings about my sexuality.
I don't hold space.
I don't, you don't hold space for, I don't I.
Because you are saying, because you are because a person is heterosexual.
That's just a given.
But because I'm bisexual, people are, have all these thoughts and these feelings and like I'm supposed to do something about it.
And I'm not changing my, I'm not, I clearly can't change my sexuality.
(18:33):
This is how I was born, but I'm not changing the expression of my sexuality to make somebody else feel comfortable because in that process, I'm gonna be uncomfortable and I have to live in my skin and I have to live in my life and with my body.
And like we started this podcast, I live a life of my dreams and I can't do that if I am suppressing part of who I am.
And that was actually a very spiritual moment for me because I.
(18:57):
While I love and appreciate religion, all religions I definitely find myself to be far more spiritual.
And I remember there being a moment with me and God in conversation in prayer.
I.
Where God told me, how am I supposed to bless you? We pray for abundance and we pray for, to be aligned and we pray for clarity and all the things.
(19:21):
And God, it, it was like God was telling me.
How am I supposed to give you those things that you won't even appreciate The gift that I gave you, like the gift that gave you was your full identity.
The gift I gave you was being a black bisexual woman.
Like how do you deny part of who you are and then ask for more? And that's like a.
(19:42):
In raising these children.
That's similar in a pathway.
If I gave my children a gift and they never used that gift, but then they asked me for something else, I would be like how and why should I give you something more if what I have given you, you don't even appreciate? And so I, it was in that timeframe that I decided to make the announcement that I was bisexual because.
(20:04):
This is how I'm made.
This is my gift.
This is what God wants for me.
And my life has transformed in amazing, beautiful ways since I came out.
And again, this is my story, right? That may not be the story for everyone.
But when I am doing work around L-G-B-T-Q identity, which I will continue to do no matter how much people are trying to suppress our, suppress us.
(20:32):
As I'm doing that work, I say that people have to be strategic when they come out, how they come out what they say.
But ultimately, to live a life of authenticity for me is a gift from God.
Yeah.
That's so beautiful.
Thank you.
And so many people need to hear that right now.
(20:54):
Yeah.
I can't, like the, I think the theme that's running through the conversation we're having here is I can't be silenced the world.
We will try to silence me in different ways, and it's up to me to decide if I'm gonna lean into that or not.
And at this moment it is still very safe for me as a person to be outspoken and to be bold.
(21:15):
And again, I recognize that for some people they can't do that.
Not because they lack desire or motivation or will, but just because for them it is a comp.
They are compromising their physical safety.
And so people have to be strategic with when they make those decisions.
And because I have what, we sometimes consider passing privilege within the L-G-B-T-Q community.
(21:39):
I actually come out far more than my wife does.
So people will look at her and likely, question or assume that she is part of the L-G-B-T-Q community.
That is not my case.
So people consistently assume that I have a husband as opposed to a wife.
So I am, I come out very often.
Very frequently.
(22:01):
Wow.
Wow.
I actually, I don't know if I've ever even thought about that before, about having to come out.
Over and over again.
Yeah.
Like on a daily basis to so many different people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
It is who I am.
It is what I do.
(22:21):
And some people are taken aback and surprised because they still have limited and ignorant thoughts around what a bisexual or a lesbian person looks like.
Or what they can do.
I've had, I am currently the department chair at Trinity Washington University, but my academic position prior to that was at Johns Hopkins.
(22:41):
And some of my students would come to me and say, you are one of my best and favorite professors.
Because you are so authentically, you, there were so many students who were struggling with their identity and were hearing messages that a person in the L-G-B-T-Q community couldn't be successful.
That, we were not gonna be able to get the jobs that we wanted to have, or we were not gonna be able to have the careers that we wanted to have, or.
(23:07):
We wouldn't be able to have the families that we dreamt about or we wouldn't be able to travel in the ways that we wanted because of our identity.
And I'm living testimony that is not true.
And so I think beyond teaching them the curriculum and the content of the textbooks, or preparation for exams and working with clients they also learned to be themselves.
And that it, at least, at the very least in my classroom, it was the safest place for them to truly be who they wanted to be, who they knew that they were.
(23:36):
That's just that's such a gift to give.
I remember this whole quote that from RuPaul.
He said I bat my.
Fake eyelashes, and it's a political statement.
Yeah, it just made me think about how just existing, just existing and opening my mouth is already an act of defiance.
(24:03):
Yes.
That's right.
That's right.
Oh, I got chills when you said it.
My, my total being is a revolution.
I revolt daily against systems and socialization standards.
I revolt against certain gender norms.
I revolt against the limits that people place on me.
(24:25):
Yeah and to be honest with you, there are times when I re vote against limits that I put on myself.
In those moments where doubt seeps in and tries to take up the space of what confi, where confidence is designed to be.
So I revo against the natural feeling of doubt as it comes.
(24:48):
Yeah.
It's like that external voice from somewhere, from society from.
So my mom, someone, that never really goes away.
Yeah.
And yeah, it's just always there.
(25:10):
Yeah.
It is true.
It is true.
From a psychological perspective, we think about that as our core beliefs.
And those core beliefs are oftentimes.
Created during our early childhood, and it's oftentimes the voices of.
The adults and the elders that are around us that are helping to shape our original thoughts in therapy.
(25:32):
We get to decide whether we're going to continue with those beliefs or whether we're going to shift those beliefs.
But in shifting and shedding those beliefs, it takes work because where there was once a core belief.
If we remove it without replacing it with something else, it leaves a gap and then an it leaves room for another negative belief to set in.
(25:53):
So therapy is important, and the frequency of engagement in therapy is important because if we're shifting and we're removing aspects of our thinking and our being, then we have to quickly be able to replace it.
It's if there's a wound in the body, if it gets cleaned out but we don't cover it or we don't put gauze in it, then it's then the infection, another infection can come.
(26:16):
And if you clean it out and get it out, you have to cover it up and protect it and heal it or cover it up and protect it so that it could heal with the newness and with the purity of what is now there.
Oof.
It's like the universe doesn't like a vacuum.
Yeah.
Oh, whoa.
(26:39):
Oh yeah.
So how do you help? How do you help people? Fill the hole, the gap.
Yeah.
That's probably a big question.
It's quite, it is quite layered.
(27:00):
I have a post-it here that someone recently told me I was meeting with them or doing some work and they were like, Hey, Dr.
Plummer, you're an enhancer.
So I wrote this, post-it on.
My wrote it on a post-it and I have it here in the office to remind me of who I am in those moments.
(27:22):
So to be honest with you.
Filling those gaps with people is dependent on who that person is and how much time I have with them and what their role is in my life, and I don't always intend to do that.
I don't walk into a conversation intending to, to heal or to cleanse or to purify or to reset and restructure, like I don't, that's not always my intention, right? Of course, in my therapy sessions, 100%, that is what my counselor, my clients are there ready for.
(27:58):
And in supervision with my counselors, they know that there is going to be some education that's involved, and that may mean that we have to dispel certain myths or we have to change certain thoughts and philosophies that we have when it comes to clinical work.
But in a normal day-to-day conversation with a person, I am just me.
I hear what they are saying and I hear what they're, what, how they're expressing themselves through their nonverbals.
(28:23):
I can pick up on people's energy really well.
I'm a therapist, right? So I read people's body language and things like that.
And depending on the circumstance, I'll decide if I'm gonna say something or not.
And what I'm gonna say with the intention of with the focus of intentionality, I.
(28:45):
I decide if it's best for me to say something in that moment or not.
And if I decide that I'm not gonna say something in that moment, then I usually ask the universe or asking God to give another opportunity for me to engage with that person where it may be a better time to say something or that the universe gives them, that gives that person that message that they need, but gives it to them in a gentle way.
(29:07):
I don't want people to learn lessons through harshness.
I'd rather them.
Learn lessons through gentle gentle engagement and reminders.
Now, some people need a little harshness.
That's their personalities, right? But that's not necessarily how I would want something to be delivered, and I'm direct, so I'm aware of that as well.
(29:28):
One of my prayers, constant prayers for years has been to be a vessel of of God and of communication.
Okay.
That's another reason that I think I hear and see what needs to be heard and said.
And also I hear what has not been said.
So some people are intentional about refraining from saying certain things, and I pick up on that as well.
(29:52):
And I'm all, I'm curious with what people say, but I'm also curious with what they chose not to say, because that is powerful as well.
That is very powerful.
That is so true.
Thank you.
(30:14):
That is so interesting.
Yeah.
In, in relationships I.
I have 2-year-old twins.
Yay.
How adorable.
Yes.
But so much is coming up, it, I have a boy and a girl and it's just, it's interesting my boys, he has so much energy and he's rowdy and he is like loud and he just doesn't know what to do with himself.
(30:48):
And sometimes he throws something and like it hits his sister.
And of course for me that's like alarms, like oh my God.
I can't allow this to happen in like this home has to be safe.
But then I have this other voice that's he's just two years old.
(31:09):
Don't, you can't, what are you going to do? So it's just, all of that stuff is coming up.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Yeah.
There, there is different there can be different energies between boys and girls, and of course their brains are designed slightly different and we have different hormones in our body that will influence, brain development and physical development.
(31:33):
And so psychosocial development.
But in those situations, you're right.
Like you can't, how far extreme can you go? What he learns best as, as a 2-year-old is through conversation and through physical redirection.
And that's because he's a sponge at this point, like we talked about a few minutes ago.
(31:54):
A lot of our core beliefs are based off of what our parents and our elders told us.
And so you are blessed to be in this space now with him where you are the parent, right? You are the elder, and you get to set his core beliefs.
And I recognize even in raising my own children that the things that we say.
To them matter so much.
My daughter can recall she went through a phase about a year or so ago, two years, between a year to two years ago where she was angry with me and she was angry with me for five things that I said to her at across 19 years of her life.
(32:29):
She's 21 now, but it was five things that I said that she could not, are five things I did that she could not release, but only five out of 19 years because I'm so intentional.
But those are the things that they remember and we can't, there is no perfection.
That is really a fantasy.
That is a movie.
You know what I mean? That's not reality.
(32:51):
So there's no room for perfection, but there is room for intentionality and there's room for, for sitting back and thinking what kind of parent we wanna be in this situation with your son, he throws something.
If he intentionally threw it at his sister, then that's the time for a discipline.
And discipline is nothing but learning lessons, right? It's not supposed to be physical harm, but that's a moment for a opportunity for him to learn a lesson through discipline.
(33:18):
Or if, he didn't intentionally try to hit her with that item, then it's an opportunity to also teach him what to do with his hands and where these items are supposed to be.
And so when the kids are so small, they're so much teaching that's involved at this point.
When they get older, I'm an advisor to my children.
They consult with me, but I am not teaching the same to the same degree.
(33:41):
But when they were small, I was very much.
Present and in their face around which lessons were important for them to learn how they needed to learn them, and how to lean in on each other.
Yeah.
It's like the same thing.
I can't just tell him No, I have to fill that No.
With something.
(34:03):
Yes.
Yes.
When I teach parenting classes, I teach a lot.
I do a lot, right? I know.
Oh my God.
Like girl, you teach parenting classes too? Yes, I do.
But when I teach parents in classes I remind parents that no, and not, we use, we call those the negative words.
Cannot, will not, do not, should not, and know these words.
(34:26):
Are stoppers, but they, but they're not replacers.
So if you tell a child don't run, they are likely then going to skip or they are going to hop, or they're gonna do a handstand, or they're gonna do a cartwheel.
But what we really want to tell them is walk, yes.
If we want to say walk, then we need to be intentional in saying walk.
(34:50):
Because if we say don't run, we assume that they know what the alternative is.
But as little children with limited worldview, they don't know all the possibilities and options that they have.
They just go into what feels good to them.
If they're running, it's likely because they have this pent up energy that needs to be expelled.
So in those situations, it's important for a parent.
(35:12):
If they say, don't run, they also say what the child can do.
Or they just say what the child can do.
Now is the time for walking.
We will run when we go to the park, or now is the time for skipping.
We will do handstands when we are at home and we have pillows around us to keep our bodies safe.
(35:33):
So again, it goes back to the intentional communication.
So that people know what they need.
And the same applies.
Funny enough, the same applies for our partners and our spouses.
Not that they are children at any means.
So some may be emotionally immature, but that is also an opportunity for our us to teach our partners what our boundaries are through positive setting as opposed to negative setting.
(36:01):
When I am tired, I need help in the kitchen.
As opposed to you never could, you never help me in the kitchen.
And that makes me so angry.
Or, when I have rough days like this, I.
I need to be held and I need you to hold my hand and give me words of affirmation as opposed to, you never say nice things to me and we don't even connect the way we used to anymore.
(36:24):
That, that is so out of context.
Right? And we are assuming that the other person knows exactly what that means.
And while we want to have.
Emotional connections to our partners, and we want them to read our minds.
That's really not fair because they have their own mind that they are still trying to read.
And and they have their own beliefs that they are still trying to decide if this is correct for them at this stage of life or if it's not.
(36:49):
And so to put to, to make one person who's still thinking through their thoughts, responsible for knowing our thoughts that we have not even expressed is is unfair.
The same kind of concept, but with a different audience a partner or a spouse versus a child.
And with different understanding, recognizing that because they're different audiences, they have different worldviews.
(37:10):
Wow.
That is so helpful.
Yeah.
They have their own brain that they're just trying to work with.
Oh man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface.
We have talked about what we need to talk about and the audience will hear what they need to hear.
(37:35):
And so that's right.
That's right.
That is the beautiful thing about it.
Sometimes I listen to podcasts and I don't even know what I'm truly thinking I'm listening to, and then I have this aha moment.
Yeah.
And it's a mind blow, right? Oh, I didn't even know I needed to hear that.
Oh, that's what I've been needing.
That's my thought that I've been having.
Oh, that's the correction, or, oh, that's the behavior.
(37:57):
And it, it comes in very unexpected ways.
That's again, what I consider the alchemy of feminine energy.
When feminine energy is in the same space.
Sharing space.
Yes.
Magical.
Yes.
Yes.
I love that.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you so much.
You're incredible.
(38:18):
Thank you and so are you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And yay to your twins.
How beautiful.
Like I said, mine are on the other end.
My daughter just turned 21.
My son will be 18 in a couple of weeks, and and I'm preparing for empty nesting.
Yeah.
(38:38):
Oh, man.
Wow.
I dunno what I'm gonna do.
I know.
I don't know.
I have no, wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's my oldest calling me right now.
You know how the watch will tell you, but she's 21 and still.
Values me.
(38:59):
Like I said, she had a difficult time for a couple of years, but we were intentional in working through that.
So it's beautiful to see how the relationship will continue to grow as she, stays in adulthood.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Thank you.
She's lucky to have you.
(39:19):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Every you said that.
Yeah.
I would tell that you said that.
Absolutely.
Good.
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