June 18, 2024 • 29 mins
In this episode of "Inflection Point," we sit down with Tim Wood, a seasoned product leader who has helped bring products like Pandora and Patreon to market. Tim shares his insights on the importance of aligning user experience with business outcomes, and how a strategic rebrand turned Patreon's biggest blocker into their secret to growth. He discusses the challenges they faced in shifting perceptions and how focusing on their mission and North Star metrics helped guide their decision-making process. Tim also shares valuable lessons on prioritization and the importance of staying true to your core problem as you scale. Tune in to learn how brand played a crucial role in Patreon's success story.
Shownotes:
- Check out the Patreon rebrand video with their rethought positioning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwvUjAv6pxg&ab_channel=Patreon
- And the Adam Fleishman blog where he goes over the Patreon positioning process and actual exercises in incredible detail: https://www.fishmanafnewsletter.com/p/when-branding-is-a-growth-strategy-part-1
Episode transcript and more information on the Two Hands Website: 2hb.co/inflectionpoint
Follow Two Hands on Instagram @twohandsbrands
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eva Frye (00:02):
Welcome to Inflection Point
A podcast where we sit down withbrand and product leaders who
helped scale their businesses intomulti billion dollar companies.
We cover the challenges they sawin the early days and how brand
helped them overcome obstaclesin perception and adoption.
I'm Eva Frye, the co-founder of TwoHands, a brand strategy and design studio.
(00:25):
We roll up our sleeves and get ourhands dirty helping early stage startups
and non profits, particularly intechnology, social impact, and climate.
First, we differentiate.
Then, we find a company's NorthStar and share their story.
Today, we sit down for a conversationwith Tim wood, a product leader.
He honed his skill, bringing productslike Pandora and Patreon to market.
(00:48):
Some of Tim's top takeaways.
Great companies get built whenuser experience and business
outcomes are really aligned.
And how shifting their positioningturned their biggest blocker
into their secret to growth.
Tim Wood (01:01):
We had a real blocker behind the perception of our brand.
Eva Frye (01:04):
We'll cover what a rebrand did for them.
And how they knew it was successful.
Tim Wood (01:08):
once we executed the rebrand the growth rate for signups basically
returned to a strong growth curve.
Eva Frye (01:15):
We had a rich conversation about user experience, how a rebrand saved
Patreon, North Star metrics, and Beyonce.
Buckle up as we take a ride onPatreon's rocket ship brand story
but first a soapbox.
The word story is thrown aroundquite a bit, these days so much so
that it starts to lose its meaning.
(01:35):
But let me get real aboutstories for a second.
Stories are humanity's mostinfluential tool created to date.
Our minds have evolved overmillennia to learn through stories.
They're, how we transmit andremember important information.
They're how we build andshare cultures and societies.
(01:58):
Stories build empires.
. It's why Nike paid 3.
85 billion on promotion in 2022.
Stories are the vehicle of brand, andwe're here to get really meta, and
tell the stories of building a brand.
So, let's jump in.
If you liked this episode of inflectionpoint, give us a follow on a, like.
(02:19):
Share this episode with someone buildinga brand, and stay tuned for more.
How do you introduce yourself at parties?
Tim Wood (02:27):
Ooh, that's a good one.
The way I used to introduce myselfat parties is someone who has
lived their life at the intersectionof music and art and tech.
Both in my career and my personal life.
And after being a lifelong musiciandecided to focus my career on building
platforms and tools to help both artistsand consumers of art and then, if
it's more of like a work oriented thingor people are interested, then I'll
(02:50):
get into the specific role that I'vehad, which is in product management.
And basically figuring out like.
What to build and why, and howit should look and feel and work.
And sometimes people are interestedin that and sometimes people are
like, yeah, I know what a PM is.
Off,
. So that's how I'll typically introduce like the career side, but
then if appropriate, it'll be anopportunity to talk about how I still
have an active music practice andthese days, more recently, like I'll
(03:12):
talk about how I'm exploring ideas.
To build exceptional products, physicalproducts in the lighting space, which is
something that I'm exploring right now.
And so then that usuallygets a lot of interest.
Eva Frye (03:23):
How did you get into the work that you do now?
Tim Wood (03:26):
The past 11 years, I've worked in product.
Primarily at consumer tech companies, at the intersection of art and tech
and monetization and subscriptions andmarketplaces and all these buzzwords.
But long story short after having beena lifelong musician and someone who
is always very in tune with like what?
(03:46):
makes a really good experience as aconsumer, I've gradually wanted to get
closer and closer to the role that canactually bring all the relevant folks
together to build great experiences thatsolve real problems and feel really good.
I've always had both a left andright brain approach to things and
and just had the good fortune of.
Starting first I started my career inmanagement consulting, like a very like
(04:09):
cut and dry business role, but I wasable to make the transition when I joined
Pandora which at the time it was like apre IPO company growing really quickly.
And in a lot of like high growthcompanies are often more problems to
solve than there are people to do it.
And so I had the good fortune to beable to get closer to the problems
that I wanted to solve whichare at the time was leading the
(04:30):
subscription side of the business.
And and like building outthe premium experience.
And so that ended up leading toessentially my entire product career
path where like I did focus onsubscription offerings focus more on
subscription premium workflow tools andthen instead of, focusing on more ad
support experiences or infrastructure.
I've always had a great deal ofcare about the user experience.
(04:53):
And feel very grateful that I was ableto steer my career in that direction.
Eva Frye (04:57):
That's awesome and important that you bring up user experience as well.
I'll talk about that more in a second,but yeah, I love that you found
yourself in this position where youwanted to connect all the different
stakeholders that are required tomake a really wonderful product.
Whether it's talking to engineering andwhether it's talking to the business side,
(05:19):
Whether it's talking to the user side.
There are a lot of overlapsbetween product and brand.
Brand is one of those thingsthat can encompass so many
different parts of the business.
The brand, in our opinionis the North Star.
And that's where everybody in the companyshould be aligning and essentially
(05:41):
sailing towards the same place.
It's not just a logo andtypography and colors.
It's business practices.
It's your origin story.
It's where you're going in theworld, your mission, vision values.
It's how you speak about yourselvesinternally and externally, and really
(06:02):
having that shared sense of, Hey,we're all going to the same place
and we're doing it in the same way.
It requires the collaborationof everyone in the organization
to truly live a beautiful brand.
And it sounds pretty similar to some ofthe stuff that you're talking about with
product, all of these overlapping circles.
(06:23):
And that's how you get to areally wonderful user experience.
And so I'm curious about theuser experience side of things.
Um, maybe we can talk at a highlevel around how important user
experience is to product andhow you build that into product.
Tim Wood (06:39):
So I Would say that, user experience is also one of those squishy
words that can be misunderstood.
And I would say that the core ofuser experience, at least the way
that I think about it the way itrelates to product is that the role
of product is to align the incentivesof the user and the business, right?
(07:02):
And so you can imagine that if, let's sayyou had a company that was ad supported,
had ads as part of their business modelwith a capitive audience, they could
crank the lever on ads to 100% and makea ton of money and then everyone would
leave because it's a terrible experience.
And in some ways, the art of productis figuring out the right balance
(07:22):
point so that you can ideally evenhave it be a virtuous cycle, right?
Where like the quality of theexperience of the user actually leads
to better business outcomes, right?
The way that I think about thisprincipally is in retention, right?
Because the better an experience is,the more you are solving problems
fully and completely and giving apleasant experience all along the way.
(07:45):
The more likely someone is to stickaround and to refer you to their
friends and family and colleagues.
so I see user experience as being thefundamental problem solving for the user,
but also problem solving for the business.
And all of those things, whenthey're really aligned, that's when
you see great companies get built.
Eva Frye (08:02):
Yeah, it's interesting talking about ads and user experience.
Tim Wood (08:06):
I am a big fan of subscription models because they do make it
more likely that you can align theinterests of the user and the business.
Like when people are paying money forsomething you can deliver them value
for that money, it's value for value.
And I think the moment that you startto introduce too many stakeholders,
If you introduce this like thirdpillar of user, which is like the
(08:29):
advertiser or the advertising ecosystem.
It just becomes a much harder problembecause you're trying to figure out
who to satisfy at whose expense and howmuch, and how does that change over time?
And so my personal preference is to keepbusiness models, very simple and clean.
Make the experience good andbe just clear and direct about
(08:50):
asking for money in return.
Eva Frye (08:52):
On the Patreon side of things, that's a different business model, right?
It's a marketplace.
So maybe we can talk about some of thelearnings there and user experience
on that side of the business.
Tim Wood (09:03):
Patreon is a really interesting example.
Especially in the early days of whatit looks like to have a product that
is really good at solving problems,but a terrible user experience and
how those things can come together.
Patreon was founded to figure out how to.
Actually deliver value backto creators for the value that
(09:24):
they were putting in the world.
Because the advertising ecosystem wasn'tdoing it for them, especially back then.
And you had these people who had likemillions of followers and they were
getting hundreds of millions of views.
And they were getting like verysmall checks for their time.
Eva Frye (09:37):
They found a mismatch between the work of creators and
the untapped potential for theirpassionate fan base to give back.
Tim Wood (09:45):
And so the core insight was related to what I was saying
earlier, which is just make itsimpler to Deliver value for value
.If somebody is truly passionate about something and really a believer
in what you're doing then They'reabsolutely willing to give you money,
but back then, it was like a radicalnotion that people would just give
money to a creator for content.
Eva Frye (10:04):
Okay.
Now we shift the conversation andgo from user experience to brand.
Tim Wood (10:09):
one interesting lesson from that was that solving
problems is a good user experience.
Like user experience is not just having atight design system with like nice pixel
perfect designs and good, photography.
Equally, or maybe even more important as afoundation is truly solving the problems
(10:30):
that you are setting out to solve, ina way that no one else is solving it.
And I see that as being like thefoundation of user experience.
And everything around it canreinforce that story, right?
Like then the way that I see brand is.
is a way of telling the story of theproblem and telling the story about,
like, how we want to solve it anddoing it in a really compelling way
(10:51):
that really speaks to the user on alogical level, on an emotional level.
And then having the productdeliver on that promise.
And first and foremost, I think userexperience is solving problems and
I think, ultimately, to do the bestpossible job of solving problems
you do start to need to think aboutBuilding trust and having clarity
and communicating like the voice andthe brand and having it be holistic.
Eva Frye (11:13):
One of the things we say in brand too is that your
brand is not what you say it is.
Your brand is what your users sayyou are when you're not in the room.
What were some of the challengesthat you ran into and how
did you try to overcome them?
Because Patreon is still around todayand it's still a thriving organization.
Tim Wood (11:33):
So if we pick up the story from those early days, when Patreon was solving
this core problem of artists and creators.
not being fairlycompensated for their work.
Patreon worked really well for thoseartists and creators who didn't
have many other options, right?
Beyoncé wasn't coming to Patreon.
(11:55):
Beyoncé has tons of optionsfor how she and her machine
can generate a huge business.
But we worked really well for the cohortof creators that had a real audience,
but maybe they weren't quite big enoughTo break into the tier of let's say big
brand sponsorships or going on big tours.
And we solve those problems reallywell, but the challenge that we
ran into did relate to brand.
(12:19):
This is even after we.
Cleaned up the UI and updatedthe typography and like made
like a nice ish experience.
We ran into the problem of it's similarto what you said, but I would even add
like one, there's one step further,which is our brand was not just what
our users said we were, but it waswhat our non users said we were.
Eva Frye (12:40):
The upstart DIY perception of their brand limited their growth with
more mid-range creators and tweaking theirtopography and experience wasn't enough.
Tim Wood (12:50):
And unfortunately, like for certain creators, it started to get
a little bit of the reputation thatPatreon was for creators who like,
couldn't make money in the big leagues.
And that wasn't necessarily true,nor was it even productive, right?
Because the idea of a membership wherefans and supporters can join to get closer
(13:12):
to the artists and their work support themon an ongoing basis, be part of the story,
that's relevant for creators of any size.
But we had a real blocker behindthe perception of our brand.
And so there did come a time whenwe realized that we were going to
have to... Reposition ourselvesand tell a different story.
Eva Frye (13:31):
They turned it into more of a membership offering than a
tip jar for struggling creators.
Tim Wood (13:36):
that happened like a few years into my time there and was responsible for
unlocking like the next phase of successfor the company beyond the early adopters.
Eva Frye (13:47):
Super interesting.
And so how did you do that?
That gets into the difference betweenlike brand identity and brand perception.
So brand perception is where youare and where your users see you.
And brand identity iswhere you want to be.
You identify that Delta and that's wherethe work is that needs to get done.
(14:08):
And we say, when building an identity, youalways want it to be a bit aspirational
so that you have something to work towardsso that the company can always have a
big goal that they're trying to achieve.
But not so out of reachthat it's disingenuous.
That gets into greenwashing andlike fire Fest, dive activities.
So how much of a stretchwas it for you to get there?
(14:29):
And did you already have somecreators who are in that realm
or was it like, Hey, we know thatthis product is useful for people.
We just actually need to change theirminds and have them come to the platform.
Tim Wood (14:41):
Yeah it was more of the latter than the former.
we had a product that was useful forcreators of a lot of different sizes.
Certainly useful beyond the sizeof creator that we had at the time.
And so yeah, like you said, a lotof it was figuring out how to tell
our story so that it would appealto the next cohort of creators.
(15:03):
And like there were some creators whowere in the next cohort who like saw the
opportunity and like they were the earlyadopters, if you will like in any kind of
product category where there are peoplewho see the vision and they see the value.
Before the mass market does.
So we had a few of those
.But this effort was primarily championed by our head of
marketing at the time Adam Fishman.
And we ended up also working with aproduct marketer named Ariel Jackson,
(15:25):
who was the first product marketingmanager at Gmail, I believe, and so
she helped moderate the conversationprimarily around like our brand
positioning including a lot of thelanguage that we used and like how we
spoke about who we're for and what we do
.And it was a really fruitful process and we, it was like a combination of speaking
to our users, but also getting alignmentacross the leadership team in terms of
(15:46):
like how we saw the next chapter of thecompany unfolding and who we are for and
what kinds of products we would build.
Eva Frye (15:52):
Adam wrote a great blog post on exactly how they did their rebrand on
his blog, which is worth checking out.
I will put it in the show notes.
I can see they went back andforth trying to figure out
the specifics of positioning.
Like if they were a crowdfundingplatform or a subscription service,
two things that will get very differentperceptions from the audience.
Tim Wood (16:13):
And we were able to look at that Venn diagram of all these, like different,
but overlapping visions and eventuallycommit To a new positioning statement
that did stretch us maybe one or twoclicks beyond where we were at the time.
Eva Frye (16:24):
And a recap on positioning for everyone.
It covers who your target customer is,what your product is, the key value prop
and how it's different from competition.
Here's the positioning they landed on.
For creators with established followingswho regularly post online Patreon is a
membership platform that helps you makemoney directly from your biggest fans.
(16:48):
Unlike the predictablerevenue you piece together.
Patreon provides consistent,ongoing income simply by giving
your fans more of what they love.
Positioning statements usuallysounds simple and clear like that.
But to get to that level of claritydoes require a ton of refining and
aligning internal stakeholders.
It is very easy to makesomething convoluted and complex.
(17:10):
But challenging to make thingsclear, simple and understandable.
Now that they had their strategy honedin they could move on to identity design
Tim Wood (17:19):
We also worked with an agency called Fuzzco.
We came to them with the positioningstatement and the emerging strategy.
And they helped us come up with a newvisual identity like word mark, logo
mark, typography color palette to tella more polished and professional story.
And it's, we're not justfor DIY upstart artists.
And we have the credibility toback that up because there's
(17:42):
a degree of like polish in ourstorytelling and our visual identity.
Eva Frye (17:45):
Here's a snippet from their marketing video that
launches their new positioning.
I'll link to it in the show notes.
If you'd like to check it out, you cansee how they got from simple, plain
language positioning that I read before.
To revealing their voice and tonealong with key messages in that video.
Voice tone personality, allthat comes after positioning.
I like to say that positioningis the bare bones foundation
(18:08):
of your verbal identity house.
And voice and tone are like the sconcesand fancy wallpaper that come at the end.
(18:29):
how did you know the brand wasresonating with your audience?
Tim Wood (18:32):
We saw our growth curve change.
And in the early days, like when wewere focused on that first like segment
of customers that team was hummingalong our conversion rates were.
Pretty solid.
And as that team went forlarger and larger customers.
And, also when we were seeing the samething like in product signups the signup
(18:52):
rates were getting a little bit stale.
And once we executed the rebrand thegrowth rate for signups basically
returned to a strong growth curve.
And it's hard to say, these things areattributable to a lot of different forces.
Cause you know, I think at the time we hadalso done like a lot of work on the signup
funnel itself and also the core product.
But brand certainly was part ofthat story and part of that success
(19:14):
that like, that kind of kept thegrowth engine humming for sure.
Eva Frye (19:18):
What were some of the most important lessons you learned
during the scaling process Yes
Tim Wood (19:23):
the natural tendency of a scaling organization is to take
on too much and to try to solveproblems that seem really good.
In fact, like you're going tohave to say no to solving problems
that actually are worth solving,that would deliver real value to
your user and to the world, maybe.
But It often would come at the expenseof the core problem that you're
(19:43):
trying to solve, your core mission.
And when that happens, then, it takesa lot of discipline and sometimes pain,
honestly, to say no to solving thesethings that are real opportunities.
Like one example for us at Patreonwas that we were laser focused
on helping creators make money.
And another problem that creatorsface... Building audience, like how
(20:06):
can someone who's making great artfind more people who like that art,
that continues to be a problem.
And so we had we had some folksat the company who were really
passionate about like us tryingto solve that problem, right?
Like the argument was, if we arein service to artists and creators,
then isn't one of the best thingswe could do for them build audience.
(20:27):
And In reality, we were notreally well positioned to do that.
Because logically, like in order tosolve that problem you need a lot
of artists, a lot of content and aton of consumers and users, right?
So that you can draw those linesand Patreon at the time that
we're having these conversations.
Was still like in the hundreds ofthousands of creators, which sounds
(20:49):
like a lot, and it was a lot from abusiness perspective since we were
building a membership subscriptionplatform, but that's not a lot of
users and content when it comes tobeing able to draw connections and make
recommendations and build audience.
That's not what Patreon is for.
even though that would have beenan amazing problem for us to solve.
For artists and creators we were not setup for success to solve it really well.
(21:11):
And any amount of time that wefocused on, this very real and very
worthwhile problem came at a directexpense to the problem that we were
set up to solve really well, whichis like helping artists and creators.
Monetize and build a close relationshipwith the fans they already have, right?
Because that was a huge problem.
That was the one that we were setup for success , to really do well.
(21:32):
that continues to be the focal pointfor the company now 10 years later.
It's really important that asyou're scaling to not be seduced
by these problems that seem reallyimportant, but might be a distraction.
Eva Frye (21:44):
How did you prioritize those problems
Tim Wood (21:47):
part of it came down to North star metrics.
There's this notion of a North starmetric where you have this metric
that represents what success in themission looks like in a window of time.
And so for us, that metric was thenumber of creators who are making
more than a thousand dollars a month.
And that was the single most importantprioritization tool that we used because
(22:12):
there was a lot that was baked intothat by making a statement of 1, 000
a month, like we're already startingto make a statement about what is a
meaningful amount of money and what typesof creators are we attracting, right?
What do we actually value as beinga indicator of our performance, to
say differently, if someone comes toPatreon and they make 5 a month and it's
from their mom or dad God bless them.
(22:34):
We're not going to turn them away.
We wish them the best, but that doesn'trepresent progress on this mission
of helping artists and creators.
Build a business from the love thatthey already have from their fan base,
And so, like, by getting, startingto get specific about what that
benchmark was, all of a sudden, thenyou can start to draw connections
between other metrics and that, right?
Or like, other, customer segments thatare most likely to drive that metric.
(22:58):
so it became a really valuable way tofocus the conversation around what types
of products, what types of initiativeswould move that metric forward.
Versus not, right?
You can imagine that the kinds of projectsand products that we would have built
to drive 1, 000 a month creators wouldbe very different from the kind that
would drive 100, 000 a month creatorsor 10 million a month creators, right?
(23:20):
Like it's just differentfeatures, different focus.
Like the sales team isfocused on different things.
Marketing is focused on different things.
Product is focused on different things.
And so that, that specificity and makingsure that everybody was like aligned
and understood that was the target wasa huge tool that we used to help focus
our conversations and prioritize as well.
Eva Frye (23:41):
And lean startup principles.
They talk about the one keymetric and the one metric that
is valuable for everyone to say.
This is the health and the successof this product and to align on that.
And also what i'm hearing is that keyperformance indicators and metrics are
super important but also what i'm hearingis mission is critical in figuring out
(24:03):
the direction of where you want to go
Tim Wood (24:06):
yeah.
Definitely.
Eva Frye (24:07):
And how did y'all figure out what the mission was
Tim Wood (24:10):
honestly, it came directly from our founder, Jack.
I think I, as I mentioned, I joinedlike a few months into the company's
history, but even before I joined,like he was always quite clear that
the purpose of the company was tofund the emerging creative class.
And he was very particular aboutit being fund, not discover,
(24:31):
not build a fan base for, right?
Because there were other platforms.
There were other tools thatwere focused on pretty much
everything except for funding.
At the time, nobody really caredabout creators making money,
like actually making money.
And so that became the focalpoint for the company's mission.
And I'm pretty sure itendures to this day.
And so I think that likethat you're totally right.
Like mission is also an incredibletool to focus the conversation.
(24:55):
And in a way, like we wouldn't have hadthat north star metric of a thousand
dollars creators if we didn't have theunderlying foundation of the mission
being focused on creators making money.
Eva Frye (25:04):
Which was felt from a true direct need because he was a creator.
I remember listening to his,how I made this with guy Roz.
And being a creator andwitnessing firsthand how profits
were just totally dropping.
And that was a severe problemthat needed to be solved.
Yeah, origin stories, man.
Origin stories are so important.
(25:26):
We work in technology.
And sometimes people have like really cooltech and they're like, Hey, we've got to
figure out the right application for this.
So it's sort of a backwardsway of finding a mission.
And other times when it actually comesfrom a direct user need, like in Jack's
case, And that's just such a beautifulorigin story that can really align people.
(25:48):
It's the true problem, and itcan help to keep that focus when
it's so easy to get distracted.
What do you think are some ofthe most important things a brand
should consider when scaling
Tim Wood (25:59):
I really liked the way that you put it, which is that just validating
what people outside of your organizationthink about you, your brand is not
who you say you are, it's who yourcustomers or who the market says you are.
And I think it's veryeasy to lose sight of that.
And so I think that getting outsidethe building, so to speak, and
having active dialogues with peoplewho are your customers and who are
(26:20):
not yet your customers is critical.
And, I think that part of what comes withthat is like being deliberate about whose
opinions you're willing to listen to.
going back to Patreon, likeit didn't matter what Beyonce
thought of us back then.
I'm sure she probably still doesn't knowwhat Patreon is, but it doesn't matter.
Because like, she is not a customernor is she like in the next one, two
(26:41):
or three or 10 segments of customersthat we're trying to address.
Eva Frye (26:44):
And that can help you get clear at the value add and speaking to people
in the language they want to be spokento in and making it really resonant.
I love the idea of talking topeople adjacent, who might not
be perfect for your product.
And figuring out why.
And getting into more of the sort ofpsychographic parts of it which is all
(27:05):
super important in persona buildingand it sounds like personas are really
important in product work as well
Tim Wood (27:11):
yep.
Totally.
Eva Frye (27:12):
It's just an interesting sort of reframe.
It's like, don't only talk to thepeople who you want to be working with.
Talk to the people who don'tactually want to be working with you.
And see how you can get newinsights and potentially improve
and potentially grow your market.
Just from getting out there andtalking to people like you said
as a talented DJ and musician, I would beremiss to not ask Tim for some updates.
(27:38):
What are you listening to these days
Tim Wood (27:40):
I've been recently inspired by like slower melodic techno in house.
So there's a duo that are based in Berlin.
These two women who go byKhaleesi and Sarah Christ.
And they play like really exceptionalemotive, but still punchy house and techno
that's been like slowed down a little bit.
And it's just amazing.
I absolutely love their stuff.
(28:00):
And so I I've been goingdeeper on them recently.
Eva Frye (28:04):
Wow.
What a talk years of product andbrand work distilled into one 30
minute segment thanks so much toTim wood for sitting down with us.
While I spend a lot of my timetalking about brand theory.
It's so enriching to hear people'sactual business battle stories,
(28:24):
overcoming real life obstaclesto emerge stronger than before.
Pandora and Patreon have market caps of$7.48 billion and $4 billion respectively.
And I, for one, I'm happy that thoughtfulpeople like Tim are using their brains
to bring more art into the world.
Thinking about brand at the earlystages is important for trajectory.
(28:48):
It helps you differentiate from thecompetition, signal to your users
that you're for them and be rememberedthrough the highly evolved tool of story.
Brand translates to moreefficient marketing spend bigger
fundraises, higher perceived value.
And higher product cost and revenue.
Brand quite literally helps youturn your story into capital.
(29:12):
If you liked this episode of InflectionPoint, please give us a follow and a
like, and share this with anyone whomay want to learn about growing brands.
Coming up next, we have some moreincredible conversations with marketing
and product leaders from Notion,Adobe, Practice Fusion, and more.
Until next time.
Tim Wood (29:35):
Duct tape and popsicle sticks.
Welcome to Inflection Point
A podcast where we sit down withbrand and product leaders who
helped scale their businesses intomulti billion dollar companies.
We cover the challenges they sawin the early days and how brand
helped them overcome obstaclesin perception and adoption.
I'm Eva Frye, the co-founder of TwoHands, a brand strategy and design studio.
(00:25):
We roll up our sleeves and get ourhands dirty helping early stage startups
and non profits, particularly intechnology, social impact, and climate.
First, we differentiate.
Then, we find a company's NorthStar and share their story.
Today, we sit down for a conversationwith Tim wood, a product leader.
He honed his skill, bringing productslike Pandora and Patreon to market.
(00:48):
Some of Tim's top takeaways.
Great companies get built whenuser experience and business
outcomes are really aligned.
And how shifting their positioningturned their biggest blocker
into their secret to growth.
Tim Wood (01:01):
We had a real blocker behind the perception of our brand.
Eva Frye (01:04):
We'll cover what a rebrand did for them.
And how they knew it was successful.
Tim Wood (01:08):
once we executed the rebrand the growth rate for signups basically
returned to a strong growth curve.
Eva Frye (01:15):
We had a rich conversation about user experience, how a rebrand saved
Patreon, North Star metrics, and Beyonce.
Buckle up as we take a ride onPatreon's rocket ship brand story
but first a soapbox.
The word story is thrown aroundquite a bit, these days so much so
that it starts to lose its meaning.
(01:35):
But let me get real aboutstories for a second.
Stories are humanity's mostinfluential tool created to date.
Our minds have evolved overmillennia to learn through stories.
They're, how we transmit andremember important information.
They're how we build andshare cultures and societies.
(01:58):
Stories build empires.
. It's why Nike paid 3.
85 billion on promotion in 2022.
Stories are the vehicle of brand, andwe're here to get really meta, and
tell the stories of building a brand.
So, let's jump in.
If you liked this episode of inflectionpoint, give us a follow on a, like.
(02:19):
Share this episode with someone buildinga brand, and stay tuned for more.
How do you introduce yourself at parties?
Tim Wood (02:27):
Ooh, that's a good one.
The way I used to introduce myselfat parties is someone who has
lived their life at the intersectionof music and art and tech.
Both in my career and my personal life.
And after being a lifelong musiciandecided to focus my career on building
platforms and tools to help both artistsand consumers of art and then, if
it's more of like a work oriented thingor people are interested, then I'll
(02:50):
get into the specific role that I'vehad, which is in product management.
And basically figuring out like.
What to build and why, and howit should look and feel and work.
And sometimes people are interestedin that and sometimes people are
like, yeah, I know what a PM is.
Off,
. So that's how I'll typically introduce like the career side, but
then if appropriate, it'll be anopportunity to talk about how I still
have an active music practice andthese days, more recently, like I'll
(03:12):
talk about how I'm exploring ideas.
To build exceptional products, physicalproducts in the lighting space, which is
something that I'm exploring right now.
And so then that usuallygets a lot of interest.
Eva Frye (03:23):
How did you get into the work that you do now?
Tim Wood (03:26):
The past 11 years, I've worked in product.
Primarily at consumer tech companies, at the intersection of art and tech
and monetization and subscriptions andmarketplaces and all these buzzwords.
But long story short after having beena lifelong musician and someone who
is always very in tune with like what?
(03:46):
makes a really good experience as aconsumer, I've gradually wanted to get
closer and closer to the role that canactually bring all the relevant folks
together to build great experiences thatsolve real problems and feel really good.
I've always had both a left andright brain approach to things and
and just had the good fortune of.
Starting first I started my career inmanagement consulting, like a very like
(04:09):
cut and dry business role, but I wasable to make the transition when I joined
Pandora which at the time it was like apre IPO company growing really quickly.
And in a lot of like high growthcompanies are often more problems to
solve than there are people to do it.
And so I had the good fortune to beable to get closer to the problems
that I wanted to solve whichare at the time was leading the
(04:30):
subscription side of the business.
And and like building outthe premium experience.
And so that ended up leading toessentially my entire product career
path where like I did focus onsubscription offerings focus more on
subscription premium workflow tools andthen instead of, focusing on more ad
support experiences or infrastructure.
I've always had a great deal ofcare about the user experience.
(04:53):
And feel very grateful that I was ableto steer my career in that direction.
Eva Frye (04:57):
That's awesome and important that you bring up user experience as well.
I'll talk about that more in a second,but yeah, I love that you found
yourself in this position where youwanted to connect all the different
stakeholders that are required tomake a really wonderful product.
Whether it's talking to engineering andwhether it's talking to the business side,
(05:19):
Whether it's talking to the user side.
There are a lot of overlapsbetween product and brand.
Brand is one of those thingsthat can encompass so many
different parts of the business.
The brand, in our opinionis the North Star.
And that's where everybody in the companyshould be aligning and essentially
(05:41):
sailing towards the same place.
It's not just a logo andtypography and colors.
It's business practices.
It's your origin story.
It's where you're going in theworld, your mission, vision values.
It's how you speak about yourselvesinternally and externally, and really
(06:02):
having that shared sense of, Hey,we're all going to the same place
and we're doing it in the same way.
It requires the collaborationof everyone in the organization
to truly live a beautiful brand.
And it sounds pretty similar to some ofthe stuff that you're talking about with
product, all of these overlapping circles.
(06:23):
And that's how you get to areally wonderful user experience.
And so I'm curious about theuser experience side of things.
Um, maybe we can talk at a highlevel around how important user
experience is to product andhow you build that into product.
Tim Wood (06:39):
So I Would say that, user experience is also one of those squishy
words that can be misunderstood.
And I would say that the core ofuser experience, at least the way
that I think about it the way itrelates to product is that the role
of product is to align the incentivesof the user and the business, right?
(07:02):
And so you can imagine that if, let's sayyou had a company that was ad supported,
had ads as part of their business modelwith a capitive audience, they could
crank the lever on ads to 100% and makea ton of money and then everyone would
leave because it's a terrible experience.
And in some ways, the art of productis figuring out the right balance
(07:22):
point so that you can ideally evenhave it be a virtuous cycle, right?
Where like the quality of theexperience of the user actually leads
to better business outcomes, right?
The way that I think about thisprincipally is in retention, right?
Because the better an experience is,the more you are solving problems
fully and completely and giving apleasant experience all along the way.
(07:45):
The more likely someone is to stickaround and to refer you to their
friends and family and colleagues.
so I see user experience as being thefundamental problem solving for the user,
but also problem solving for the business.
And all of those things, whenthey're really aligned, that's when
you see great companies get built.
Eva Frye (08:02):
Yeah, it's interesting talking about ads and user experience.
Tim Wood (08:06):
I am a big fan of subscription models because they do make it
more likely that you can align theinterests of the user and the business.
Like when people are paying money forsomething you can deliver them value
for that money, it's value for value.
And I think the moment that you startto introduce too many stakeholders,
If you introduce this like thirdpillar of user, which is like the
(08:29):
advertiser or the advertising ecosystem.
It just becomes a much harder problembecause you're trying to figure out
who to satisfy at whose expense and howmuch, and how does that change over time?
And so my personal preference is to keepbusiness models, very simple and clean.
Make the experience good andbe just clear and direct about
(08:50):
asking for money in return.
Eva Frye (08:52):
On the Patreon side of things, that's a different business model, right?
It's a marketplace.
So maybe we can talk about some of thelearnings there and user experience
on that side of the business.
Tim Wood (09:03):
Patreon is a really interesting example.
Especially in the early days of whatit looks like to have a product that
is really good at solving problems,but a terrible user experience and
how those things can come together.
Patreon was founded to figure out how to.
Actually deliver value backto creators for the value that
(09:24):
they were putting in the world.
Because the advertising ecosystem wasn'tdoing it for them, especially back then.
And you had these people who had likemillions of followers and they were
getting hundreds of millions of views.
And they were getting like verysmall checks for their time.
Eva Frye (09:37):
They found a mismatch between the work of creators and
the untapped potential for theirpassionate fan base to give back.
Tim Wood (09:45):
And so the core insight was related to what I was saying
earlier, which is just make itsimpler to Deliver value for value
.If somebody is truly passionate about something and really a believer
in what you're doing then They'reabsolutely willing to give you money,
but back then, it was like a radicalnotion that people would just give
money to a creator for content.
Eva Frye (10:04):
Okay.
Now we shift the conversation andgo from user experience to brand.
Tim Wood (10:09):
one interesting lesson from that was that solving
problems is a good user experience.
Like user experience is not just having atight design system with like nice pixel
perfect designs and good, photography.
Equally, or maybe even more important as afoundation is truly solving the problems
(10:30):
that you are setting out to solve, ina way that no one else is solving it.
And I see that as being like thefoundation of user experience.
And everything around it canreinforce that story, right?
Like then the way that I see brand is.
is a way of telling the story of theproblem and telling the story about,
like, how we want to solve it anddoing it in a really compelling way
(10:51):
that really speaks to the user on alogical level, on an emotional level.
And then having the productdeliver on that promise.
And first and foremost, I think userexperience is solving problems and
I think, ultimately, to do the bestpossible job of solving problems
you do start to need to think aboutBuilding trust and having clarity
and communicating like the voice andthe brand and having it be holistic.
Eva Frye (11:13):
One of the things we say in brand too is that your
brand is not what you say it is.
Your brand is what your users sayyou are when you're not in the room.
What were some of the challengesthat you ran into and how
did you try to overcome them?
Because Patreon is still around todayand it's still a thriving organization.
Tim Wood (11:33):
So if we pick up the story from those early days, when Patreon was solving
this core problem of artists and creators.
not being fairlycompensated for their work.
Patreon worked really well for thoseartists and creators who didn't
have many other options, right?
Beyoncé wasn't coming to Patreon.
(11:55):
Beyoncé has tons of optionsfor how she and her machine
can generate a huge business.
But we worked really well for the cohortof creators that had a real audience,
but maybe they weren't quite big enoughTo break into the tier of let's say big
brand sponsorships or going on big tours.
And we solve those problems reallywell, but the challenge that we
ran into did relate to brand.
(12:19):
This is even after we.
Cleaned up the UI and updatedthe typography and like made
like a nice ish experience.
We ran into the problem of it's similarto what you said, but I would even add
like one, there's one step further,which is our brand was not just what
our users said we were, but it waswhat our non users said we were.
Eva Frye (12:40):
The upstart DIY perception of their brand limited their growth with
more mid-range creators and tweaking theirtopography and experience wasn't enough.
Tim Wood (12:50):
And unfortunately, like for certain creators, it started to get
a little bit of the reputation thatPatreon was for creators who like,
couldn't make money in the big leagues.
And that wasn't necessarily true,nor was it even productive, right?
Because the idea of a membership wherefans and supporters can join to get closer
(13:12):
to the artists and their work support themon an ongoing basis, be part of the story,
that's relevant for creators of any size.
But we had a real blocker behindthe perception of our brand.
And so there did come a time whenwe realized that we were going to
have to... Reposition ourselvesand tell a different story.
Eva Frye (13:31):
They turned it into more of a membership offering than a
tip jar for struggling creators.
Tim Wood (13:36):
that happened like a few years into my time there and was responsible for
unlocking like the next phase of successfor the company beyond the early adopters.
Eva Frye (13:47):
Super interesting.
And so how did you do that?
That gets into the difference betweenlike brand identity and brand perception.
So brand perception is where youare and where your users see you.
And brand identity iswhere you want to be.
You identify that Delta and that's wherethe work is that needs to get done.
(14:08):
And we say, when building an identity, youalways want it to be a bit aspirational
so that you have something to work towardsso that the company can always have a
big goal that they're trying to achieve.
But not so out of reachthat it's disingenuous.
That gets into greenwashing andlike fire Fest, dive activities.
So how much of a stretchwas it for you to get there?
(14:29):
And did you already have somecreators who are in that realm
or was it like, Hey, we know thatthis product is useful for people.
We just actually need to change theirminds and have them come to the platform.
Tim Wood (14:41):
Yeah it was more of the latter than the former.
we had a product that was useful forcreators of a lot of different sizes.
Certainly useful beyond the sizeof creator that we had at the time.
And so yeah, like you said, a lotof it was figuring out how to tell
our story so that it would appealto the next cohort of creators.
(15:03):
And like there were some creators whowere in the next cohort who like saw the
opportunity and like they were the earlyadopters, if you will like in any kind of
product category where there are peoplewho see the vision and they see the value.
Before the mass market does.
So we had a few of those
.But this effort was primarily championed by our head of
marketing at the time Adam Fishman.
And we ended up also working with aproduct marketer named Ariel Jackson,
(15:25):
who was the first product marketingmanager at Gmail, I believe, and so
she helped moderate the conversationprimarily around like our brand
positioning including a lot of thelanguage that we used and like how we
spoke about who we're for and what we do
.And it was a really fruitful process and we, it was like a combination of speaking
to our users, but also getting alignmentacross the leadership team in terms of
(15:46):
like how we saw the next chapter of thecompany unfolding and who we are for and
what kinds of products we would build.
Eva Frye (15:52):
Adam wrote a great blog post on exactly how they did their rebrand on
his blog, which is worth checking out.
I will put it in the show notes.
I can see they went back andforth trying to figure out
the specifics of positioning.
Like if they were a crowdfundingplatform or a subscription service,
two things that will get very differentperceptions from the audience.
Tim Wood (16:13):
And we were able to look at that Venn diagram of all these, like different,
but overlapping visions and eventuallycommit To a new positioning statement
that did stretch us maybe one or twoclicks beyond where we were at the time.
Eva Frye (16:24):
And a recap on positioning for everyone.
It covers who your target customer is,what your product is, the key value prop
and how it's different from competition.
Here's the positioning they landed on.
For creators with established followingswho regularly post online Patreon is a
membership platform that helps you makemoney directly from your biggest fans.
(16:48):
Unlike the predictablerevenue you piece together.
Patreon provides consistent,ongoing income simply by giving
your fans more of what they love.
Positioning statements usuallysounds simple and clear like that.
But to get to that level of claritydoes require a ton of refining and
aligning internal stakeholders.
It is very easy to makesomething convoluted and complex.
(17:10):
But challenging to make thingsclear, simple and understandable.
Now that they had their strategy honedin they could move on to identity design
Tim Wood (17:19):
We also worked with an agency called Fuzzco.
We came to them with the positioningstatement and the emerging strategy.
And they helped us come up with a newvisual identity like word mark, logo
mark, typography color palette to tella more polished and professional story.
And it's, we're not justfor DIY upstart artists.
And we have the credibility toback that up because there's
(17:42):
a degree of like polish in ourstorytelling and our visual identity.
Eva Frye (17:45):
Here's a snippet from their marketing video that
launches their new positioning.
I'll link to it in the show notes.
If you'd like to check it out, you cansee how they got from simple, plain
language positioning that I read before.
To revealing their voice and tonealong with key messages in that video.
Voice tone personality, allthat comes after positioning.
I like to say that positioningis the bare bones foundation
(18:08):
of your verbal identity house.
And voice and tone are like the sconcesand fancy wallpaper that come at the end.
(18:29):
how did you know the brand wasresonating with your audience?
Tim Wood (18:32):
We saw our growth curve change.
And in the early days, like when wewere focused on that first like segment
of customers that team was hummingalong our conversion rates were.
Pretty solid.
And as that team went forlarger and larger customers.
And, also when we were seeing the samething like in product signups the signup
(18:52):
rates were getting a little bit stale.
And once we executed the rebrand thegrowth rate for signups basically
returned to a strong growth curve.
And it's hard to say, these things areattributable to a lot of different forces.
Cause you know, I think at the time we hadalso done like a lot of work on the signup
funnel itself and also the core product.
But brand certainly was part ofthat story and part of that success
(19:14):
that like, that kind of kept thegrowth engine humming for sure.
Eva Frye (19:18):
What were some of the most important lessons you learned
during the scaling process Yes
Tim Wood (19:23):
the natural tendency of a scaling organization is to take
on too much and to try to solveproblems that seem really good.
In fact, like you're going tohave to say no to solving problems
that actually are worth solving,that would deliver real value to
your user and to the world, maybe.
But It often would come at the expenseof the core problem that you're
(19:43):
trying to solve, your core mission.
And when that happens, then, it takesa lot of discipline and sometimes pain,
honestly, to say no to solving thesethings that are real opportunities.
Like one example for us at Patreonwas that we were laser focused
on helping creators make money.
And another problem that creatorsface... Building audience, like how
(20:06):
can someone who's making great artfind more people who like that art,
that continues to be a problem.
And so we had we had some folksat the company who were really
passionate about like us tryingto solve that problem, right?
Like the argument was, if we arein service to artists and creators,
then isn't one of the best thingswe could do for them build audience.
(20:27):
And In reality, we were notreally well positioned to do that.
Because logically, like in order tosolve that problem you need a lot
of artists, a lot of content and aton of consumers and users, right?
So that you can draw those linesand Patreon at the time that
we're having these conversations.
Was still like in the hundreds ofthousands of creators, which sounds
(20:49):
like a lot, and it was a lot from abusiness perspective since we were
building a membership subscriptionplatform, but that's not a lot of
users and content when it comes tobeing able to draw connections and make
recommendations and build audience.
That's not what Patreon is for.
even though that would have beenan amazing problem for us to solve.
For artists and creators we were not setup for success to solve it really well.
(21:11):
And any amount of time that wefocused on, this very real and very
worthwhile problem came at a directexpense to the problem that we were
set up to solve really well, whichis like helping artists and creators.
Monetize and build a close relationshipwith the fans they already have, right?
Because that was a huge problem.
That was the one that we were setup for success , to really do well.
(21:32):
that continues to be the focal pointfor the company now 10 years later.
It's really important that asyou're scaling to not be seduced
by these problems that seem reallyimportant, but might be a distraction.
Eva Frye (21:44):
How did you prioritize those problems
Tim Wood (21:47):
part of it came down to North star metrics.
There's this notion of a North starmetric where you have this metric
that represents what success in themission looks like in a window of time.
And so for us, that metric was thenumber of creators who are making
more than a thousand dollars a month.
And that was the single most importantprioritization tool that we used because
(22:12):
there was a lot that was baked intothat by making a statement of 1, 000
a month, like we're already startingto make a statement about what is a
meaningful amount of money and what typesof creators are we attracting, right?
What do we actually value as beinga indicator of our performance, to
say differently, if someone comes toPatreon and they make 5 a month and it's
from their mom or dad God bless them.
(22:34):
We're not going to turn them away.
We wish them the best, but that doesn'trepresent progress on this mission
of helping artists and creators.
Build a business from the love thatthey already have from their fan base,
And so, like, by getting, startingto get specific about what that
benchmark was, all of a sudden, thenyou can start to draw connections
between other metrics and that, right?
Or like, other, customer segments thatare most likely to drive that metric.
(22:58):
so it became a really valuable way tofocus the conversation around what types
of products, what types of initiativeswould move that metric forward.
Versus not, right?
You can imagine that the kinds of projectsand products that we would have built
to drive 1, 000 a month creators wouldbe very different from the kind that
would drive 100, 000 a month creatorsor 10 million a month creators, right?
(23:20):
Like it's just differentfeatures, different focus.
Like the sales team isfocused on different things.
Marketing is focused on different things.
Product is focused on different things.
And so that, that specificity and makingsure that everybody was like aligned
and understood that was the target wasa huge tool that we used to help focus
our conversations and prioritize as well.
Eva Frye (23:41):
And lean startup principles.
They talk about the one keymetric and the one metric that
is valuable for everyone to say.
This is the health and the successof this product and to align on that.
And also what i'm hearing is that keyperformance indicators and metrics are
super important but also what i'm hearingis mission is critical in figuring out
(24:03):
the direction of where you want to go
Tim Wood (24:06):
yeah.
Definitely.
Eva Frye (24:07):
And how did y'all figure out what the mission was
Tim Wood (24:10):
honestly, it came directly from our founder, Jack.
I think I, as I mentioned, I joinedlike a few months into the company's
history, but even before I joined,like he was always quite clear that
the purpose of the company was tofund the emerging creative class.
And he was very particular aboutit being fund, not discover,
(24:31):
not build a fan base for, right?
Because there were other platforms.
There were other tools thatwere focused on pretty much
everything except for funding.
At the time, nobody really caredabout creators making money,
like actually making money.
And so that became the focalpoint for the company's mission.
And I'm pretty sure itendures to this day.
And so I think that likethat you're totally right.
Like mission is also an incredibletool to focus the conversation.
(24:55):
And in a way, like we wouldn't have hadthat north star metric of a thousand
dollars creators if we didn't have theunderlying foundation of the mission
being focused on creators making money.
Eva Frye (25:04):
Which was felt from a true direct need because he was a creator.
I remember listening to his,how I made this with guy Roz.
And being a creator andwitnessing firsthand how profits
were just totally dropping.
And that was a severe problemthat needed to be solved.
Yeah, origin stories, man.
Origin stories are so important.
(25:26):
We work in technology.
And sometimes people have like really cooltech and they're like, Hey, we've got to
figure out the right application for this.
So it's sort of a backwardsway of finding a mission.
And other times when it actually comesfrom a direct user need, like in Jack's
case, And that's just such a beautifulorigin story that can really align people.
(25:48):
It's the true problem, and itcan help to keep that focus when
it's so easy to get distracted.
What do you think are some ofthe most important things a brand
should consider when scaling
Tim Wood (25:59):
I really liked the way that you put it, which is that just validating
what people outside of your organizationthink about you, your brand is not
who you say you are, it's who yourcustomers or who the market says you are.
And I think it's veryeasy to lose sight of that.
And so I think that getting outsidethe building, so to speak, and
having active dialogues with peoplewho are your customers and who are
(26:20):
not yet your customers is critical.
And, I think that part of what comes withthat is like being deliberate about whose
opinions you're willing to listen to.
going back to Patreon, likeit didn't matter what Beyonce
thought of us back then.
I'm sure she probably still doesn't knowwhat Patreon is, but it doesn't matter.
Because like, she is not a customernor is she like in the next one, two
(26:41):
or three or 10 segments of customersthat we're trying to address.
Eva Frye (26:44):
And that can help you get clear at the value add and speaking to people
in the language they want to be spokento in and making it really resonant.
I love the idea of talking topeople adjacent, who might not
be perfect for your product.
And figuring out why.
And getting into more of the sort ofpsychographic parts of it which is all
(27:05):
super important in persona buildingand it sounds like personas are really
important in product work as well
Tim Wood (27:11):
yep.
Totally.
Eva Frye (27:12):
It's just an interesting sort of reframe.
It's like, don't only talk to thepeople who you want to be working with.
Talk to the people who don'tactually want to be working with you.
And see how you can get newinsights and potentially improve
and potentially grow your market.
Just from getting out there andtalking to people like you said
as a talented DJ and musician, I would beremiss to not ask Tim for some updates.
(27:38):
What are you listening to these days
Tim Wood (27:40):
I've been recently inspired by like slower melodic techno in house.
So there's a duo that are based in Berlin.
These two women who go byKhaleesi and Sarah Christ.
And they play like really exceptionalemotive, but still punchy house and techno
that's been like slowed down a little bit.
And it's just amazing.
I absolutely love their stuff.
(28:00):
And so I I've been goingdeeper on them recently.
Eva Frye (28:04):
Wow.
What a talk years of product andbrand work distilled into one 30
minute segment thanks so much toTim wood for sitting down with us.
While I spend a lot of my timetalking about brand theory.
It's so enriching to hear people'sactual business battle stories,
(28:24):
overcoming real life obstaclesto emerge stronger than before.
Pandora and Patreon have market caps of$7.48 billion and $4 billion respectively.
And I, for one, I'm happy that thoughtfulpeople like Tim are using their brains
to bring more art into the world.
Thinking about brand at the earlystages is important for trajectory.
(28:48):
It helps you differentiate from thecompetition, signal to your users
that you're for them and be rememberedthrough the highly evolved tool of story.
Brand translates to moreefficient marketing spend bigger
fundraises, higher perceived value.
And higher product cost and revenue.
Brand quite literally helps youturn your story into capital.
(29:12):
If you liked this episode of InflectionPoint, please give us a follow and a
like, and share this with anyone whomay want to learn about growing brands.
Coming up next, we have some moreincredible conversations with marketing
and product leaders from Notion,Adobe, Practice Fusion, and more.
Until next time.
Tim Wood (29:35):
Duct tape and popsicle sticks.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com