EP10: Plants, People, and Places: A Herbal Journey with Sophia Avramides

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Ta -da!
All right, ta -da!
We are here.
All right, everyone.
We are with Sofia Avramides, is thatcorrect?
Yeah, Avra - Yeah, Avramides.
Avramides.
Avramides.
Yeah.
All right.
She's definitely from the Atreides in theDune Saga.

(00:21):
Definitely.
Definitely.
But yeah, just we've been wanting to...
hop on for a long time.
Sophia is an awesome herbalist here in theUS.
Me being, I guess I call myself an amateurherbalist.
I should probably go with that.
You know, just reaching out to people thatI think are doing really cool work and

(00:43):
that are cool people and just wanting toreally just connect more and get, you
know, different perspectives of theherbalists roaming around this planet
today.
And to just have a you know,
fun conversation and see what's going on.
So Sophia, why don't you tell you canstart wherever you want, you know, if you

(01:04):
want to tell us where you're from, whatyou're up to, or you can tell us where you
are right now today.
I think you're somewhere a littledifferent than usual.
You could start there, but I'll let youtake it for a bit.
Yeah, yeah.
So I also, although like herbalism isdefinitely been what's colored my life in

(01:25):
the last like,
I don't know, almost 10 years, I feel likeI'm also an amateur herbalist.
Like, I feel like there's so much that Idon't know.
I'm always learning.
I'm always like humbled by what I'm notaware of.

(01:45):
So I feel you on that.
And I mean, I feel like, again, althoughit's something that I often like share
about, learn about, teach about.
I feel like I'm just such a student of it.
So I just want to start there.
I am currently in Los Angeles.
I was going to be in the desert right now,but I decided to actually take this call

(02:08):
here just because I wasn't sure what thevibe was going to be when I landed.
So I decided to do the podcast first andthen I'm going to drive down to...
The desert, probably listening to podcastson the way.
but yeah, I live in Los Angeles, theTongva lands and I'm originally from

(02:35):
Massachusetts.
I'm from the south coast of Massachusetts,which is where a lot of my herbal
curiosity sparked.
And it's been really interesting movinghere.
I moved here.
about two and a half years ago and I'mlike just starting to get my footing when

(02:56):
it comes to my herbal practice in SouthernCalifornia now, because it's just such a
different climate ecosystem.
Like, it's cool, there's a lot.
And also it's vastly different than theNortheast.
So I'm feeling like I'm now like landing.
Yeah, I bet.

(03:16):
I bet.
What's some of the big differences to you?
man, I mean the rain, of course, like,although it's been really rainy here and
there has been like lush, you know, growthbecause of the downpours, just the

(03:36):
climate, like the drier, arid climate andthe general, difference in precipitation
between the Northeast and the Southwest.
If I mean, I guess this isn't really thesouthwest, but it kind of is.
Yeah, I was actually looking, I have afarm.
I have, I bought two farmers, Almanacsrecently to just like peruse around, but

(04:00):
they all class it like in theirclassifications.
They put California at least the southernpart in the southwest.
So yeah, I mean, it like makes sense thatit's in the southwest, but if always
regionally heard it be described as likeSouthern California.
So, but climate wise, like it's.
not too different from like New Mexico oryou know, Arizona.

(04:23):
So yeah, I guess just that part has beeninteresting and like learning desert
plants and seeing what's abundant here.
Like there's a lot of like roadside plantshere that don't grow abundantly in the
northeast.
Like I notice mallow everywhere.
I don't know if you've been noticing it,but it's just like everywhere.

(04:45):
And it's just like common mallow and youknow, in the Northeast, that would be like
mugwort or like mullen.
And here it's like mallow and plantainsometimes.
Yeah.
So like just kind of getting used to thathas taken a while, surprisingly.

(05:06):
I didn't think it would take so long.
But I think it's also because like whenyou move, and I'm sure you found this,
like when you move to a new place.
you're like a plant that's beingtransplanted and like your roots need to
get established.
And like sometimes that takes a long time.
So you can't really look around at what'saround you until like you're established.

(05:27):
And interesting.
Yeah.
Do you did you find that in moving toPeru?
Yeah, definitely.
It feels Yeah, it feels like it takes sometime.
But I don't know.
I can't remember this woman's name.
But there's an herbalist who talks aboutlike the practice of I think she calls it
like,
bio orientation.
And just like, actually, like spending inthe beginning, like, the first thing to

(05:53):
ground is like orienting yourself throughlike, going out and seeing like, what are
the plants around?
Like, who is here?
You know, who's next to me?
Who will my allies be here?
And just kind of like doing that.
And I feel though, like peruse a loteasier, right?
Like my neighborhood is nature.
You know what I mean?
Like I walk out and I walk three minutesand I'm up against the mountain, you know,

(06:17):
walking through the dirt roads outside thehouse, there's all sorts of, you know,
plants along the way.
So I feel like it's a lot easier than likeorienting when you when you come into a
city and like SoCal.
And yeah, it's a lot different for sure.
Yeah, I think of I definitely think ofMullen when I think of the East Coast.

(06:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's one of my favorite plants.
Yeah, I love driving down the highway inVirginia and just seeing like tons of
mullein along the freeway and I'm likecleaning the air.
You know, like mullet.
Yeah, definitely.
Mulleins out there just working.
Literally just working and like lookingbadass while it does it.

(07:00):
And yeah, it's just yeah, mullein is suchan amazing plant and definitely one of my
favorite plants.
And I mean like,
Like on that note, like, you know, I lovewhat you said about the bio orientation
because that tends to be a practice that Ihave whenever I go somewhere new.
So like today going into Palm Springs, Iwill be taking a walk as soon as I land,

(07:25):
which is a practice that I like to have.
And I love that phrase for it of beinglike, okay, like I'm bio orientating, like
I'm going to see what's around me.
I think anytime I land somewhere new, thatis something that I like to do, is just
drop my things and go on a walk, even ifit's like 2 a But yeah, I mean, here, I
just, I love it.

(07:46):
You know, like I really love it here.
I've really landed, I think.
I recently moved, so I was living in this,this really like lovely home for some
time.
and now just upscaled in a lot of ways.
And I have a full lab, like apothecarystudio now.

(08:08):
And I feel like having a space to be ableto like commune with the plants that I'm
growing at home and then also like takethe information that I'm getting from the
outside world and like, integrating itinto my world.
Like there's actually a space to do it.
And...
Like it's wild, like just around heregoing on walks.

(08:29):
Like I keep thinking about olive treesright now.
I don't know why, but they're like poppingin my head.
Yeah, like I feel like it's so cool thatthat's an ornamental plant here.
You know, that people plant them as alandscaping like art form.
And you know, for me, like being Greek andhaving such rich symbology around olives

(08:50):
and like.
like olives, you know, and olive oil and,and like Greek mythology loving like the
olive tree.
I just think it's so cool that that existshere.
And, there's just, I feel like there's alot of like rich, like symbolism found in

(09:11):
this climate because of what can growhere.
There's so much that can grow.
And so I'm kind of like learning to leaninto that a little bit.
but again, like eternal student, there'sso much.
Yeah, it's not in so many lifetimes.
I'm yeah, still relinquishing that on adaily basis.
For sure.
And it's so interesting you bring upolives because I have been on a olive

(09:34):
rabbit hole.
The past two weeks has been like my mainrabbit hole since I've been back home.
And it started with I've been you know,I'm really interested in weather in
general.
And then
particularly, you know, right now with ElNino and all these things.
And I was seeing, you know, I just kind ofkeep track of like where I see news on

(09:55):
like droughts and other things happening.
And it was like, there's, you know, likeheavy droughts and like Spain, you know,
Greece in some places, Turkey, Italy.
So the, and these are all the traditionallike really big producers of olives and
olive oil.
And I was like, I wonder what the price ofolive oil is today.

(10:15):
You know, the, the,
the entrepreneur trading commodity part ofme from back in the day was just like,
what's the price of olive oil?
And then it was like olive oil at all timehighs.
And I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
Okay.
And then I was like, who's growing oliveoil or like who's growing olives back, you
know, in my hometown in Bakersfield.
And I searched and I find like one familyfarm and I just like call the guy I'm

(10:38):
like, hey, I'm doing some research wantedto learn more about olives.
Like, you know, would you be down to meetup and he's like, yeah.
And he's actually this really cool, likenow we've become good friends.
And like that's how I actually went tothis concert with last night.
And he's like a fifth generation farmer,but his grandfather at like, 87 years old
decided that instead of planting likealmonds or pistachios, he was going to

(11:01):
plant olives for anything, anything new.
And obviously for like, you know, droughtreasons and things like that, but he chose
olives.
And so I've been out at these olive farms.
on the outskirts of town here, and thenlike, he gave me a couple of bottles and,
you know, I've just been learning morebecause oils in, in, you know, herbal

(11:23):
practices were, you know, are superimportant to us and me being a very, you
know, Vata Pitta, but having a lot ofVata, you know, Constitution, you know,
oils is like big priority for me and likegetting good quality oils in.
And so he gave me a couple of bottles andI'd just been like pulling off this thing
like.
five times a day as I walk by it in thekitchen.

(11:45):
I love that.
It's really interesting of how, because Ialso was like, yeah, like, I mean, olive
leaves are used medicinally.
And then the other day, I was like, whatare the energetics of olive leaves?
And like, what are all of these used for?
And just starting to look at, you know,those uses some, you know, say it's good
with circulation.

(12:06):
There's some viruses that I think it'ssuper potent with.
So it was just, it was just cool.
Like I've just been totally down a oliveoil rabbit hole the past two weeks.
It's been, I love that.
That's fascinating.
I didn't realize that olive oil was at anall time high and I'm not surprised.

(12:29):
yeah, I very, coincidentally yesterday Ihad a friend come over who's been, who's
had kind of like a dry, like brackishcough recently and.
He was asking me if I had anything forhim.
And so I made a little bit of Mollentique.
So like going back to Mullen, just to likehelp kind of soothe that and provide some

(12:54):
like mucilage in a sense, like gave alittle marshmallow, gave the rundown and
doing a cold infusion with that.
And then I have an olive leaf extract thatI made.
in glycerin, like olive leaf glyceratewith leaves from this massive grandmother

(13:16):
olive tree that had been, that is in thecourtyard of my old home here.
Huge, like hundreds of years old.
Maybe the biggest olive, I mean,definitely the biggest olive tree I've
seen in California, like giant.
Yes, big medicine and.
There was a day of landscaping where like,landscapers came through and just took off

(13:43):
so much of this tree, which I was veryupset about because it was providing me a
lot of shade and like comfort in the hotsummer sun here.
But I obviously salvaged as much of it asI deemed necessary and I made a glycerin
with it.
And so I personally haven't worked witholive leaf medicine too much.

(14:07):
I love that you just broke down those,like different uses of it for medicine.
I remember reading that it's helpful forlike sore throat as well.
So I ended up straining out a little bitof the olive leaf extract yesterday and I
tried some and it's so good.

(14:28):
And I had my friend Ember try it.
And they like instantly were like, wow,like, I feel like this is doing exactly
what I need it to.
And the taste is really good.
And yeah, it's just it's really cool thatyou just brought that up because I yeah,

(14:49):
olive leaf is one that I'm now exploring.
And I feel like my ancestral roots areloving it too.
For sure.
So now I feel like I need to pour myself abottle of it and just see what comes
through with it.
Although I don't really feel like I haveany specific needs right now.
It's fun to still explore.

(15:11):
Can you tell us about what would youclassify as a brackish cough?
so I would just say like where...
I don't know if brackish is even the rightword, but it just isn't productive.
So it just feels like it's like dry andlike, like, like strong, a strong cough.

(15:37):
Yeah.
That doesn't have a lot of resolution toit.
You know, that feels like it's.
It's just like creating habit, likewrecking havoc in your system versus like
actually having some sort of productivitywhere your body's like letting out

(15:58):
whatever is creating a cough in the firstplace.
So Mullen has an expectorant quality to itthat helps bring out whatever it is like
looming that extra gunk in there.
Plantain is also actually good for that.
If you could do a plantain combination,that just helps.
pull out gunk.
It does it topically, but it can do it inthe lungs as well.

(16:20):
And same with like, you know, you can useit in combination with red clover.
And like that will help like, create likecreate some sort of, you know, almost like
agitation in the lungs in a positive waythat will help remove that excess mucus or
whatever is in there that's creating that.
And part of it could be like not even likegunky mucus, but air quality in general.

(16:45):
You know, you were saying earlier, likeMullen is such an air purifier.
And so I feel like when it works in thelungs, it works to help clean up the lungs
as well in that way.
Yeah, which is so contrary to what mostpeople if they're not working with herbal
energetics would think, right, you know,you go to the store, you see the

(17:07):
commercials and it's, you know, stop thecough, you know, suppress it.
Excuse me, here we go.
You know, it's, it's, it's typically tryand alleviate the symptom.
Whereas, you know, in the vital traditionsthat we're kind of working in, it's
actually, hey, no, the cough is a goodthing.

(17:29):
And if it's not productive, then let'sactually use a plant that's going to make
it more productive, which is, it justmakes so much sense, right.
But I think we are attention has beenturned to everything is bad, a fever is
bad.
Diarrhea is bad.
All these things are bad.
It's actually like no your body is havingan extremely intelligent response right

(17:51):
now and our job is to actually facilitatethat in order to make it as productive as
possible to then carry you through andsupport that and so yeah, like you're
saying even yeah, like some people theidea of losing my voice now, excuse me one
second For some people some olive leaf.

(18:11):
Yes, all of the
You know, for some people it's like, ifyou were to tell them like, yeah, actually
this herb is going to irritate your lungsor your throat or something in order to
get this up, it would be like, why would Iwant to do that?
But it's actually brilliant when we thinkabout it from that perspective of, you
want to get this out sooner than later andnot carry it for another seven to 15 days

(18:35):
that you don't need to.
but yeah, I also haven't experimented toomuch with olive leaf, but I'm.
actually curious about maybe going out tothis farm before I leave and grabbing some
and then making some tincture back inPeru.
Yeah, I feel like I mean, I love theglycerate of it.

(18:55):
It just took on the olive leaf flavor sowell.
And I love using, you know, like highquality like alcohol in general.
I feel like glycerates really nice for
you know, Vata Pitta constitution, likeyou were saying, just because it has that
sweet quality and sweet and Ayurvedabalances both Vata and Pitta.

(19:21):
It's just got this like the coolingqualities that help with Pitta and help
like, you know, just bring Pitta back homeand chill it out a little bit.
And sweet in general is like grounding,you know, it's, it's a grounding taste.
It's earthy, like it's got that.
It just brings you in and then it has thatdownward motion.

(19:43):
That's good for both Vata and Pittabecause Vata can be like all over the
place and Pitta too can like kind of havelike upward moving energy because it's so
like heady and like wants to just likedigest everything.
But yeah, so I would recommend theglycerin.
I'm a huge fan of that if you can.

(20:06):
you can make that happen.
What's really funny is, is, is the otherday I went the other night and I was just
going to take a little bit of this goldenseal, a couple of drops.
I can't remember why I think I just wantedto try this tincture that I bought to take
back with me to Peru.
And I was like, so disappointed when Irealized that I bought a glycerate and not

(20:26):
an alcohol tincture.
I was just like, I was like, what have Idone?
Like, no, I have to go buy another one.
That's so funny.
Yeah, I was like, I was just like sodisappointed and mainly for anyone
listening that would be because you know,typically alcohol is going to extract a
lot more medicinal properties than aglycerate but a glycerate can be used if

(20:48):
it's for kids or someone who doesn't wantalcohol and some different reasons.
I know some people that do preferglycerate though in terms of possibly
extracting some other qualities that maybealcohol isn't.
But as soon as I tasted it, I was like,damn it.
I didn't read the label well enough onthat one.
That's so funny.
Yeah, I tend to, you know, I do most of mylike tincturing and extracting in alcohol

(21:15):
and I rarely use glycerin.
I don't know why I used it for the oliveleaf, which is also interesting because
olive leaf is like kind of a heartier, youknow, it's like kind of thick and hard
almost.
It's not like a super flexible leaf.
And you would think intuitively that onewould use alcohol to really break it up

(21:36):
and extract it.
But I don't know why I went glycerateroute and that's the medicine I have right
now.
So I'm kind of rolling with it.
But yeah, I love an alcohol extraction.
I really like blending the two.
I do a lot of making simples and thencombining them and joining herbal forces

(21:57):
and.
creating like an elixir, if you will,versus just like a simple.
Because I like a little bit of sweet, butI love the pungency of alcohol as well.
I feel like that alone is so medicinal.
And I actually, I had, so I did like dryJanuary this year, which was my first time

(22:19):
ever curbing or cutting out any substancesfor a long period of time.
Not that I necessarily use them thatfrequently.
I'll have a glass of wine or a craftcocktail once a week.
But it was really interesting because itwas an intentional choice.

(22:42):
And I noticed that I really could feelthe...
medicinal quality of the alcohol in mytinctures when I would take them because I
didn't stop taking tinctures.
I didn't take them as often.
Actually, I noticed that my body naturallydecided that I didn't want to take them as

(23:06):
much.
So I was making many more herbal infusionsand teas, doing more avianga, self -oil
massage and taking in my herbs indifferent ways.
But...
It was really interesting to notice howsubtle of an effect that alcohol has on
the system when you take a tincture.

(23:29):
And again, I noticed it pretty stronglyafter taking a month off of consuming
alcohol in general.
So yeah, it's kind of cool.
I feel like it's, of course, sourcingof...
your herbs and your plants is of utmostimportance.

(23:51):
You know, like who grew it, what soil wasit grown in, like what practices, you
know, what love was given to it.
And then also like who distilled thealcohol you're using, like what's the
spirit you're putting it into, like isjust as important.
And...
I feel like distillation is something I'mreally interested in and like something I

(24:13):
want to start learning more about becauseI would love to start distilling my own
spirits at some point and like making myown wine and then infusing that with, you
know, I mean, that's a different process,but like fermenting my wine and then, you
know, distilling whatever I distill,making some gin, you know, yeah.

(24:34):
And then making some.
It's true.
The, the alcohol.
Yeah.
That's something that eventually I alsowant to dip into a little bit of, of yeah,
making the actual distilled alcohol thatyou make the medicine with.
Yeah, I have a couple of friends, there'sthere's a guy in the sacred valley where
I'm at who distills his own.

(24:56):
And he he actually also like he's a bigseed seller.
So he sells a lot of like medicinal plantseeds that you can't get around, which is
really cool.
Very cool.
Yeah, it's always interesting of just likelistening to you like, you know, say that
stuff.
It's like, it really is like the smalllocal herbalist who's going to provide

(25:19):
someone with the absolute best because wecare so much usually, you know, like it's
pretty normal for the herbalist to care somuch.
And so like, there's no there's no brandon a shelf typically.
I mean, there might be one or two.
But other than that, you can't beat theherbalist who's like, you know, gone
through a series of madness in order tofind like the exact plant source they want

(25:45):
because of the soil and the environmentand the grower and then found like the
particular alcohol they like.
And then, you know, just each little thingin the process, you know, that we work
with and that, you know,
a lot of times obsessiveness that we putinto it, it just makes great medicine
compared to what a person can get at astore.

(26:06):
And it's kind of this really sweet littlelike distributed network of us, you know,
around 100 % the world.
I love that.
Thank you for saying that actually, thatfeels that makes me feel really seen.
And like, I really I feel like anyone elsethat is listening to this who makes
medicine.
I think one of the biggest things.

(26:29):
and challenges in moving to Los Angeleswas being like completely saturated in
capitalism more so than, you know, in theNortheast where I was surrounded by local
farmers and small businesses.

(26:52):
And I almost think like my soul made thatdecision because I needed to.
integrate into this world of...
like consumerism and like, I guess likejust big, massive corporate companies that

(27:13):
do kind of rule this like subset of theworld and then in turn, like so much of
the world.
And I feel as if, you know, my medicinemaking practice kind of took a backseat
because I was a little bit overwhelmed by.
just how much there is out there.

(27:35):
And I have had, you know, an onlineapothecary for the last, I don't know how
many years, like since 2018, I'd say.
And I was so oversaturated by peopleselling things, like going to...
grocery store and seeing like a wall oftinctures or you know just but not even

(27:59):
just tinctures like everything just allthe things that get sold and I just
decided I didn't want to add to that andso I feel like I just stopped creating
because why I don't know like why createif it's not going to be shared and that's

(28:19):
not necessarily true like I don't actuallyhold that much like
Affirmation or mantra still like I feellike I love to create to create for the
act of creating But at the beginning I wasjust like I don't know if I can keep doing
this like I don't know if I can keepmaking medicine and selling it because
There's just so much stuff out therealready and people are already so you know

(28:45):
stimulated by
being told to buy stuff.
And like, I don't want to be another oneof those people that's telling people to
buy stuff because I've made it, you know.
And so I really appreciate you saying thatbecause now, you know, the value of my
work has like crept back into my psyche.
And in the last like, I'd say six monthsor so my medicine making practice has

(29:12):
taken off again, because I've
I ran out of things that I personallyneed.
And I was like, thinking to myself, howdid I run out of this?
And then I realized it's because I was soconsistently creating for so long and I
had a good back stock and now like my backstock has, you know, dribbled out.

(29:36):
So it was inspiring to start creatingagain based off of my own needs versus
like the needs of other people.
and now, you know, I'm like, I reallyappreciate what you said because I do
agree that, you know, I'm only going tocreate what I think is the best for myself
because I believe I deserve that.

(29:57):
And then if there's extra to be shared,then I get to put that in the hands of my
community.
And that feels really good.
So yeah, I definitely felt my spirit getcrushed a little bit.
I'm not gonna lie by like being here andbeing like, there's just so much stuff and
so many billboards and gas is soexpensive.

(30:18):
And like, why would anyone want to buy atincture for me?
Totally.
But I also think what you said to start,it's like, usually, you don't get put in
that position where it's like, okay, like,let's see how much pressure we can exert
on Sophia now.
will she survive if we put her deeper intoBabylon, you know, and I think that it's

(30:42):
only when actually it knows that strengthis there that it will put us in those
situations.
And it's important.
And I see that happen to, you know,luckily, I have really amazing teachers.
And it was very clear from the beginningof like, look,
If you're approaching this as like runoffinto the woods, I'm going to start my own

(31:05):
thing out here and I don't have to beinvolved with society and culture than
like, that's not really like how you'regoing to help heal anything.
You know, we have to be participatory at adeep level.
And so learning how to participate and towalk these lands and streets in the
current state of things is it can be quitechallenging, but it's also, it's also the

(31:29):
only place where we actually can help.
at the end of the day, you know, and soit's kind of, it's kind of interesting to
see like when we all go through ourevolution, because I was definitely there
at one point, I was just like, why aren'twe just going into the woods and
you know, like, why don't we just do thatversus now I'm like, I actually, you know,
I had some friends back in the sacredvalley who are very much like, like, I'm

(31:52):
not going back into Babylon at all, youknow, like, they go like, they go home,
like once every 10 years.
And I'm just like, I actually am not thatput all like, I just now it's more like, I
see it for what it is.
And it's not for me.
But I don't think condemning it in mostways is going to help.

(32:12):
the people who are at the edge of wakingup, I don't think me coming in with
condemnation for their life and theirlifestyle based on their culture, which
we're all born into a fishbowl and youdon't know that you're in a fishbowl when
you're in a fishbowl.
And so it's kind of just like, I thinkmoving toward a deep acceptance of, you

(32:34):
know, the world as is and then makingthose small.
movements in our local communities when wecan.
But I mean, don't get me wrong.
I mean, it's been a struggle the pastthree weeks at certain points, we're just
like, God, you know, like, this dark magicis intense, you know, like just watching,
like being around when people have TVs onand I'm like looking at the state of like,

(32:57):
how heavy this dark magic is, and like howmuch control it has.
And for most people to even hear medescribe it as like dark magic, they would
be like,
You know, it'd be like, what is this guytalking about?
But it's like straight up dark magictrying to control a human being.
Anyways, I sidetracked us on that one.

(33:19):
No, I love hearing it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, but I do think it's.
I also too, I think a lot of times becauseI came from a very entrepreneurial
background before I came into herbalism.
So I was always a little bit differentthan a lot of people who kind of.
founded in different ways or were raisedwith plants and all these different

(33:40):
things.
But I think it's easy to forget that like,yes, we live in a very fucked up world of
capitalism today.
But that doesn't mean that like, we didn'ttrade and produce things and sell things
for all of our, you know, evolutionaryhistory for the most part.

(34:02):
you know, as soon as there was more thanone tribe, we were trading stuff and
exchanging and doing all these things.
And I think sometimes it's easy to getcaught up on, you know, not wanting to
sell something because that wouldinherently mean capitalism versus actually
that's a very natural part of being ahuman being.
And it's more of, can we just lookourselves in the mirror and I'd be like,

(34:25):
yeah, I actually put a lot of intentionand prayer into this medicine.
And it's really beautiful medicine.
And I think there's so many herbaliststhat are doing that and it's really
awesome.
You know, and I like to think somedaywe'll have like some like way to like see
like a whole network map of like all thedifferent herbalists, you know, around.

(34:47):
I think that'd be epic.
I would love to see that and I would loveto trade medicine with them.
And I love what you're saying about thatbarter system.
I think in my ideal world.
We were actually, I was on a callyesterday for a school that I am going to

(35:07):
be sharing knowledge with called AncestralArts.
It's a really cool herbalism school basedin the Bay Area.
And we ended our call last night with theinstructors all sharing a world that they
dream of, you know, because we've enteredPisces season for following Western

(35:29):
astrology and,
It's like this dreamy sort of seasonbecause spices is this watery sign that
really like is kind of uncontained in manyways.
And so the question was, what do you dreamof?
And my answer was, I dream of being in aworld where we get to skillshare and

(35:57):
really fortify the strengths and theskills that we have.
And.
we really get to like lean or dive into, Ishould say, like what lights us up and
makes us feel alive and grow that and thenbe able to barter and trade.

(36:17):
And, you know, I love the barter system somuch.
And, you know, I mentioned yesterday, myfriend came over and I gave them some tea
and some tincture and they were like,well, what do I owe you?
Like, you gave me all these things and...
I was like, you don't owe me anything.
I have plenty of herbs, you know, likeyou're fine.
And they were like, all right, well, I'llbuy you a sandwich from that Italian

(36:42):
sandwich shop.
We're really excited to go to.
And like that is what I prefer more thananything is like, yes, that is a good, I
actually really want, I want that Italiansandwich.
And you know, like, you know, or liketrading a health consultation for a photo
shoot or.
whatever it might be is like, I so preferthat though I love money.

(37:06):
And like, I'm working on owning thatfrequency of money and owning like, money
is great money allows us to reallycultivate the life that we want is a great
resource.
And you know, reprogramming like, wheredid it come in that like money is evil or
money is bad, because it's not it's justbeen used in dark ways, like you're

(37:28):
saying.
by people who have a lot of it and want tokeep having more of it and like preventing
or by systems that have, you know, wantmore and like the way that those systems
are in place prevent so many others fromnot having it and staying like in a space

(37:49):
of like being enslaved to it in a sense.
And so, yeah, I...
like it's been interesting that herbalismhas been not only a teacher for me for
like how to like heal my body, but alsolike how to like exist in the world really
and like how to like be with the systemsthat are currently in place and how to

(38:13):
like maybe transmute them and how do Iwant to transform them?
Like how do we want to transform them as acollective?
You know, like you said, like what's thismap of all the, you know, small community
herbalists?
or medicine makers or healers or, youknow, just wisdom keepers of, you know,
plant whispers, like all these people,like, you know, if we can like, just

(38:37):
continue to like empower each other fromwhere we're at, like, I think there's like
work that happens.
And to what you were saying earlier about,you know, moving to Peru and living in the
sacred valley and, you know, havingfriends who...
are like, I'm not going back, you know,and that's a fine choice.
Like that's, if that's the choice you wantto make, you'll be vibrating at your own

(39:03):
frequency and like that will, you know,ripple out to the world in whatever way
it's supposed to.
And I also really value like those who canleave and come back and then maybe go
again and just like integrate those seedsof knowledge in like a more nomadic way
and like,
kind of like plant vibration into anyplace and kind of create a little bit of a

(39:29):
disruption there of like what thefrequency already is or vibration already
is.
Like you said that plant vibration, that'san interesting concept to think about.
Yeah, right?
Because like you're literally like movingfrom, you know, being in the frequency of
the sacred valley, which is so potent andbeautiful.
just epic, like it's like so wise andloving and nurturing and the Andes are

(39:53):
like amazing and there's such practicesthere that are just, you know, they
haven't, they've been happening forcenturies, you know, and of course there's
things that aren't great about, you know,they're.
systems in place there that we love toit's not all sunshine and rainbows.

(40:16):
It's not you know, and like that's thecase in you know, in like South America,
like all over the world, you know.
And that being said, like, it's not evenit's not necessarily the people in the
human civilization.
Although that's magical there.
It's really like the land, you know, theland is so powerful.

(40:37):
And so
the fact that you can be there, let yourcellular makeup really feel all of that,
and then come back a new person.
How frequently do we completely change orshed all of ourselves and then become

(41:01):
literally a new person?
Is it every seven years or something?
I think for all of yourselves.
But yeah, we frequently are like, ofcourse, shedding and regrowing in all of
her.
But I don't know the exact number.
I just read it the other day, and I waslike, wow, that's so cool.
I think it might be seven.
You might be right about that.

(41:22):
I can't remember personally.
But it's not as long as you would think.
Seven years is still not a long time,really, when you think about every single
cell.
Yeah, a completely new person, right?
Like, regenerating every cell in yourbody.
Right.
And that is cool because it's like you getto bring all that regeneration to these

(41:45):
other places and again, implant thatfrequency.
And I think again, going back to like,kind of the story I was telling earlier,
just like the the witnessing of myself, Ireally was like, kind of nervous because I
always like to think of myself as being adisruptor, someone who's going to bring

(42:06):
some.
different vibration to a space that mightneed some sort of resurrection, if you
will.
Not always, I'm definitely not a perfectperson.
I definitely have low frequency days.
I definitely get caught in negative loopsand thinking patterns.
We're gonna have to make that into a meme,be like, today's a low frequency day.

(42:30):
It's a low frequency day.
It's a low frequency day.
I've never heard that before.
It's perfect.
Yeah.
like if you're gonna need me to like helplike up the mood today, like it's not
gonna be me, you know, like I can bringyou some like calendula or some St.
John's war, like I can offer these thingsand like maybe that is my, you know,

(42:53):
ability to help, but it's not gonna be,it's not gonna be me, you know, but a lot
of the time it is and I do work to like,
uplift, you know, I feel like that'ssomething that I really would call in if I
was thinking about what my life's work is,is definitely to help uplift or inspire

(43:21):
others to be more uplifted, you know.
But that takes a lot of work.
And again, like I think in coming here,and I don't know how long this chapter is
going to be, but...
just in the thick of it, I almost likereally lost that.
And I was like, Whoa, I see how people'slike souls get sucked out coming to this

(43:46):
place.
Like I don't know.
And again, like finding community, I thinkis really important finding people who
are, you know, interested in the samethings you're interested in, or at least
like maybe not the same things, but havethe same level of like passion and.
excitement for like evolving andbettering.

(44:09):
Yeah, it really comes down to the peoplelike even in the Sacred Valley, like it's
a really gorgeous place.
But without having great community around.
I still think it's it's challenging.
You know, to just be anywhere.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
When I got back to the States, it waslike,
one time walking into Starbucks and thenlike the next day you're like, I could go

(44:32):
get a coffee again.
You're like, they got me already.
Fuck.
Yeah.
I remember, I think I might've told youthis story, but I remember when I got back
from, like I had spent three months inPeru in 2017 and it was incredibly
transformative in many ways.

(44:53):
It was my first solo trip and I wasbackpacking and.
I also had had a really severe case ofpsoriasis that I like, it basically came
on like three weeks before I left forPeru.

(45:13):
And I had psoriasis since I was sevenyears old.
However, I'd never had a case like thissevere.
And it was basically, you know, a stressresponse where.
You know, I had just gone through a reallybad breakup.
I had quit my job.
That was like my beloved community job of,you know, being in a space.

(45:40):
It was this really cute little likeorganic grocery store.
And, we were just like a space wherepeople came who were all sorts of, you
know, yoga instructors and meditationteachers and local farmers and.
just such a community hub and it really,that place had really opened my eyes to
the community that was around me.

(46:01):
So I'm so forever grateful for that place.
But I had quit my job there because itcame under new management and the new
management was like not at all inalignment with like the prior previous
management who were like my mentors inmany ways.
So break up, like broke up with my job,moved back to my parents' house.

(46:24):
big stuff.
And then I was asked to get the yellowfever vaccine from the people who I was
going to be staying with off grid in Peru,up in someplace in the sacred valley,
deep, deep in the mountains.

(46:46):
And in hindsight, I think that they askedus to get that vaccine out of a liability.
thing versus like versus like, you know,us actually really needing to get it.
But at the time I, you know, was travelingsolo and was nervous and I was like, am I

(47:12):
going to get yellow fever?
Because they were like, we highlyrecommend you get this.
I remember that was the wording, which wasinteresting because this was like a
permaculture like plant program.
I don't know, whatever, regardless of -Seemed contrary to what we would normally
make an assumption about.
Yes, yeah, exactly.
So regardless of whether or not it was aliability issue for them or they really

(47:38):
wanted us to get this yellow fevervaccine, I went and got this yellow fever
vaccine, which is a live vaccine.
And so, you know, on top of all of thislike heart,
aching stress my body was going through.
I went and got this live vaccine injectedinto me.
And within 12 hours, I had a full bodyreaction that started with what looked

(48:04):
like hives, like all over my arms, verylike rashy, very itchy, very red, very
inflamed.
And I was like slathering on, you know,like, like plantain oil and like
calendula.
and cannabis oil.
I had a lot of different cannabis saws andall this stuff and nothing was working or

(48:27):
was working very short term.
And then I ended up going to the hospitalbecause you know, my parents started
freaking out and they're like, you have togo to the hospital.
And I was like, I don't want to go to thehospital.
And then that just made it that muchworse.
It was a very stressful experience.
And then what ended up happening was itended up

(48:49):
being an incredibly severe psoriasis, likejust a outbreak on my body.
I had this crazy out like all over mybody.
So my immune system just freaked out.
I think like, again, my nervous system wasalready super depleted and my immune

(49:10):
system was probably depleted too.
And then I got this vaccine and suddenlylike huge reaction in my body.
And...
I had it like all over my arms and like myneck, which was really uncomfortable when
I would try to sleep.
Like my whole neck was covered inpsoriasis, like under my chin.
It would get like, like just like flakyand then like, like has this like, like

(49:35):
liquid quality to it.
Just like really atrocious.
And it was on my face and.
I literally felt like a monster.
Like I didn't, like physically I felt souncomfortable because like my, you know,
my whole abdomen.
And so that was, I mean, definitely one ofthe most challenging experiences of my

(49:58):
life for sure.
You know, like covered in this, in scalesand like not really knowing what to do
because the things that I knew, you know,at this point I had done my like Ayurvedic
counselor training and I was like,
constantly continuing education and I likehad all of this information of like how to

(50:19):
help heal myself but I didn't see any ofit working and I was like I don't know
what to do and so I you know almost didn'tgo to Peru I almost canceled my trip
because I was in such pain like physicallymentally spiritually.
But I remember I was with one of myfriends who came and bought the last of

(50:44):
the herbal preparations I had.
I had basically sold everything that I hadbecause I was going on this trip.
And she came by and picked up a fewbottles of tincture and a salve.
And she was like, are you still going togo to Peru?
And I was like, I don't know.
And she was like, if you don't go now, youwill never go.

(51:05):
If it's not yes, it will never happen.
And I remember her saying that and I wasjust like, I'm gonna go to Peru.
Like there's no, I have to go, you know,like there's no not going.
And so it was really challenging.
I like really like applaud my parentsbecause you know, at that point again, I

(51:27):
had never like necessarily traveled thatfar away to, you know, lands that, you
know, were unfamiliar.
in such a sick state and they were like,you got this, go do the thing.
Greek parents, they are worried and theywant their firstborn child to be safe.

(51:51):
I really applaud their ability to trust inme because then that put trust in myself.
Then I just went and did the thing and itwas incredibly challenging.
I was in severe discomfort for a lot ofit.
I had to do a lot of tending, but I wentto the herb shops right away.

(52:12):
I got to Cusco and I was like, all right,I have to find the local herbs that might
help me with my skin.
And I don't remember there being anythingthat really, really stuck out except
Mugna, which is like Andean mint, which Igot a couple of creams of that and was
drinking a lot of that mint tea and it wasjust soothing and yummy.

(52:36):
And then of course, like...
you know, there was coca tea everywhere,but that wasn't necessarily for like
skincare.
It was more so, I think such an amazingally for just like your mind and nervous
system.
And I love it.
And the land.

(52:56):
It's just like being on that land withcoca leaf is just like meant to be for
some reason.
Yeah, I mean, it grows everywhere and it'sa beautiful plant.
And yeah, I mean, it's definitely like gotthe vibe.
I feel like it holds the energy of thatland for sure.
To take coca leaf and, you know, inceremony and really like respectfully

(53:24):
reverently enjoy it.
So beautiful.
Yeah.
Yeah, what happens next?
Do we find an herb or you continue on?
I you sit in some ayahuasca ceremony,everything changes like what happens next?
Honestly, so I I spent the first monthlike just journeying through Cusco and the

(53:46):
Sacred Valley go to Machu Picchu, OllantayTambo like do all this, you know, travel
alone make some really amazing friends.
I actually met a distiller I
like I wonder if it's the same person.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
I know of them is a different guyactually.
But I know the guy whose family has thatspot.

(54:09):
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah, that was cool.
And just, you know, like, again, gotplugged in a little bit to what was going
on at some locals befriended them and justhad a time.
Again, feeling like I was this like,
weird shell of myself because I reallykind of was like I had shed so much of

(54:30):
like my identity.
Where like I had again like released somany things that were like this is who I
am like this I'm in a relationship andthis is what I do for work and like yada
yada yada and so I had all this likeidentity shedding and then I literally was
shedding skin like I was shedding so muchskin and I

(54:52):
also didn't have like I realized so muchof you know, that was a great testament to
like me learning about what trueconfidence is because I was not confident
in like my outward appearance at the time,you know, I like felt like so much of my,
you know, 20s.
I was like, I'm like kind of cute.

(55:13):
Like I like I'm, I like how I look.
And I, I couldn't lean on that because Ididn't like how I looked.
I
I actually looked really sick because Ihad this like stuff all over me.
And so I didn't have that to lean oneither.
So I really had to like dig deep, like whoam I?

(55:33):
What am I doing?
Like what are my beliefs?
What's my energy?
Like, is there a sweetness that comes outof me or like, am I like cynical, you
know, or who, like what's going on?
And yeah, I mean, as far as the plantteachers,
that came through.

(55:54):
I mean, I was at this place calledPaititi, which is like, I don't really
know.
My buddy, my buddy, my buddy apprenticethere a long time ago.
I wonder if what was their name?
his name is Zack.
Zack was there.
Yeah, okay.
He was there.
He's there probably in the past fiveyears, maybe.

(56:16):
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, this, this Roman Roman is the guywho
run to that, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Roman and Cynthia.
And there's a whole crazy story about likemy integration with them and like how they
were woven into my life prior to me evencoming to Peru.

(56:38):
That, yeah, it was just meant to be.
So like that, that was a whole thing.
Lots of synchronicity there.
And yeah, I went and stayed on that landand they,
you know, had plant initiations.
I went because it was a permacultureprogram and I was interested in learning
about like farming and like regenerationand working with soil and building

(57:02):
compost.
And also because there was this plantinitiation, which was sitting with Aya and
sitting with San Pedro, who I didn't knowat the time at all.
You know, I wasn't really familiar withSan Pedro.
And,
I did a dieta prior.
I wasn't really eating a lot of foods thatwere inflammatory in general because I had

(57:29):
this skin thing going on.
So I was avoiding most dairy and meat andnot eating any nightshades.
So I wasn't eating tomatoes or potatoes oreggplant.
I was really focusing on just eatingsimple grains, some grains, some fruit.
I was drinking a lot of...

(57:50):
like, like juices from the markets, lotsof ginger and turmeric.
I still to this day cannot believe like Iwould get like a giant fresh juice for
like a dollar like a dollar.
They're too much.
I went I went like a week before I leftand I ordered one and I was like,

(58:10):
I can't even begin to drink all of this.
It's like three glasses too many afterI've already had two glasses.
Yeah, there are such abundant beverages.
I'm like, whoo.
But it was good for me at the time becauseit was almost doing liquid fasting in a
sense where I was just drinking juice.

(58:30):
And yeah, it was an amazing time period.
And I went after a month and did this, youknow.
crazy hike to get up to their land.
I don't know if you've heard about justthe voyage to get to that land, but it's
pretty intense.
You leave Pisaq and you go, I think it'sto my memory, maybe three to four hour

(58:58):
drive up into mountains.
And then from there, you take all yourstuff and you hike for two hours.
and you're hiking these super small trailsthat are very precarious in certain parts.

(59:19):
And I had a severe fear of heights and Iwas walking on the edge of cliffs with a
raging river below me, very much fall toyour death situation.
I was so scared.
Like it was like maybe the most scaredI've ever been in my life, like doing this

(59:42):
hike and I had to develop like a walkingmantra while I was doing it, which I still
use to this day when I'm like in any sortof situation that is scary.
And I
I like ended up finishing the hike, I waslike the second person to like land on the

(01:00:06):
land because I like got this like divineenergy poured into me that it was safe and
I ended up just like supercharging it atthe end and like climbing the mountain and
made it to the land and yeah, and then itwas just like living, living there for a
while and living in my tent.

(01:00:27):
And so,
that was really the medicine.
Like, yeah, exactly.
You know, I did the the plant ceremonies.
Ayahuasca was what initially called me toPeru, which sounds so cliche.
But it's true.
You know, I initially got the call while Iwas smoking a blood so Northeast like

(01:00:51):
smoking like a blood in New Bedford,Massachusetts.
So funny.
And like, of like some homegrown weed thatlike my friend grew and I like, it was
just like, what do I do next?
And this was like months prior to, youknow, me having this crazy psoriasis

(01:01:13):
outbreak and everything.
It was, it was prior to all of it.
I was just like, what's next?
And like this, like a word startedfloating in my head and I was like, what
is that word?
And it was just like, ayahuasca.
And I was like, what?
And I'm like, dude, what like, no, like,I'm not gonna like, go do ayahuasca.

(01:01:36):
Like, although I had done plenty of like,entheogenic, you know, substance, like I
was in ceremony with many of those things,but it was so bizarre, you know, it was a
bizarre calling.
It was like this weird, like etherealwhimsical, like voice that was just like
ayahuasca.
And yeah, it was.

(01:01:56):
And so I like was like, well,
Who am I to not listen to that call ifthat's really what I'm supposed to go do
right now?
And so I called me, I would say.
And it was interesting too, because at thetime it was really random.
I hadn't been talking to anyone aboutIowa.

(01:02:17):
It wasn't on my consciousness.
It was just something that came in.
I did some research.
I started reading that Jeremy Narvey book.
And which was another synchronicitybecause the person who owned How on Earth,

(01:02:37):
that little market that I worked at wasreally good friends with Jeremy and Arby
and like gave me that book around thatsame time and was like, you need to read
this book.
And it was just all divine.
And I was like, I'm supposed to be goingto this place.
So anyway, for me, I only sat with heronce and...

(01:02:58):
from what I've learned, you really reapthe most benefits when you sit with her
more than once.
Or she maybe comes through more powerfullyor has more to share, you know?
Yeah, I think some people too, you, youknow, I haven't sat that many times, but

(01:03:19):
you, I think part of it is just gettingalmost kind of comfortable and like, this
is how like this, like, this is how, youknow,
this energy moves and you can kind oflearn to navigate with it better over
time.
And then you're not as much like, youknow, whoa, whereas like probably the
first times it's big, but I think goingback to everything you said, like even

(01:03:42):
hearing like, like the mountain part andall these things, it's like, it's your
mythology, right?
That's your hero's journey and everythingleading up to that, right?
Like,
you're smoking the blunt and it's likeayahuasca and then two months later
ayahuasca is like, do you really want togo because now I'm going to like strip you

(01:04:04):
of everything I'm going to you know, playwith your skin and your identity and all
these different things.
How bad do you really want thisinitiation?
And this is a part of the initiation and Ithink
what a lot of people probably don't knowis that like, that's a lot of our work as
herbalists is kind of guiding people towalk that journey, because that's actually

(01:04:30):
the medicine, like a lot of these plantsare only they're there to like prop you up
as you go through the journey, right?
It's like, you know,
you've just fought this battle and you'relike, I'm exhausted.
And it's like, there's a plant that's likepower up and you're like, do do do do do.
And you have all these allies that cancome in.

(01:04:52):
But the real medicine is the energeticjourney of the deep psycho spiritual parts
of this.
And it's so interesting how you got ontothis and not to like change it to myself,
but I feel like I'm, I've obviously
been in, but I also I feel like there's anew layer emerging of like, what is real,

(01:05:13):
true, authentic self confidence?
And what is the energetics that's comingout of me on a daily basis and seeing like
where I am, deeply insecure, or and forme, it came with like, you know, the
ending of a really big phase when I wasliving in China and India for five or six

(01:05:34):
years and kind of
having, you know, a business relationshipend with my partner very abruptly where I
was then all of a sudden, my wholeidentity was working on this business in
India seven days a week for years.
And now it's completely gone.
And it's like, who am I?
And you know, all these different things.
I went the same thing, but I went wolfinginitially, you know, and no, actually, I

(01:05:57):
went to Brazil with ayahuasca before Istarted wolfing.
But it was like, the initiation was likedeep depression.
you know, deep anxiety and like figuringout then like, okay, something has to
change.
What am I going to do here?
But it's just so it was so cool to listento you tell some of these things because

(01:06:17):
this is what mythology is, right?
It's the realest part of our psychologicalor psycho spiritual experience, you know,
and and being on that cliff.
And I love how you actually shed yourphysical skin as well.
And not only are they, I'm sorry for that.
Like at the same time, at the same time,I'm like, hell yeah.

(01:06:39):
You know, like that's, that's when youknow, you're really going through it.
And a lot of people would think to like,like I just need to take whatever
medication will completely suppress thisand get rid of it.
And it's so understandable.
You know, I feel like I'm actually cominginto a newly found compassion and

(01:07:00):
understanding for like,
what would I say, like cosmetic things?
I think not being a woman, I haven'talways thought about cosmetic things as
much.
And in the past year, I've had this likecalcified lymph node come out on my neck.
And what's crazy is that it's beenactually with me for like, since I was six

(01:07:23):
years old, but it was always on theinside.
And I always thought it was like a bundleof muscles that were just like tangled up
but in the past year it has decided thatit's like The energy is changing.
I feel like it's wanting to move outeventually.
Yeah, but like here it is and all of asudden For the first time in my life.

(01:07:45):
I have people who are like, what's that onyour neck?
And it's just brought me this completelynew
understanding of anyone who has anythingcosmetic and the the type of insecurity
that comes with that or the the gist kindof is bothersome, especially like this is

(01:08:05):
not uncomfortable at all.
This is purely cosmetic.
It does not bother me in one bit.
But when your skin is itching or feelsweird and all these things like it is so
difficult to not go grab something that'sjust going to numb that pain, take it away
as quickly as possible.
But the real journey is that deeperspiritual experience.

(01:08:28):
And that's what I think a good herbalistdoes is it's like, hey, I'm going to walk
hand in hand with you through thisprocess.
And now you as an herbalist can actuallywalk people through that because you walk
through it yourself.
You know, you're not.
Yeah, who?
Yeah, the lit like, yeah, wow.

(01:08:49):
Yeah, the literal walking through the fireand like,
literally getting burnt to ash and thentransformed.
I mean, with what you're saying aboutwhat's going on with the lymph node on
your neck, that reminds me, you're sayingthe superficial, or not the superficial,
you're saying the cosmetic, and I'mreading it as the superficial skin.

(01:09:13):
And in astro -herbalism, Venus is whatrules the superficial skin.
And, you know, amongst other things, otherorgans of the body, but when you look at
the skin, it's, it's Venusian and Venusis, you know, in mythology, like the, the,

(01:09:34):
the energy of the archetype of beauty andlike love and like sex and romance.
And, it's so interesting because it reallyis that where it's like, that's what it
has a direct effect on when you feel likethat.
part of your body is impaired is like onthe Venusian parts of you, the parts of

(01:09:56):
you that like love yourself, you know, andit like, it makes you dig deeper.
And so yeah, I just like making thatconnection of being like, it's all Venus
baby and learning how to, you know, diveinto what's the deeper layers of Venus
inside of me when my skin's like.

(01:10:18):
you know, not doing so great or when Ihave a physical like thing going on.
But yeah, I mean, I love what you'resaying about the herbalists being someone
who can help to guide and walk peoplethrough that journey.

(01:10:39):
And it is so true because when you startleaning,
like into herbalism as a practice.
And when you turn to it and you're like,this is something that I'm calling on
because my pharmaceutical allies aren'tworking anymore.
You know, like maybe they worked for alittle period of time, but you started

(01:11:01):
noticing some effects or you just don'twant to use them at all because you're
afraid of the effects.
Again, like I agree with you.
I, I,
I actually, in being somebody who's moveddeeper into our crazy society, have
started to realize the value of low dosemedications for some people.

(01:11:23):
I'm being like, that might actually beexactly what they need.
I can give you skull cap and oak straw.
I don't know if it's gonna do what youneed as quickly as you need it.
And so in that...
Like again, I know like it's an oldcliche, but everything has its place and
its time It's just like not what you do,but how you do it.

(01:11:45):
So how is it used?
You know, what's the dosing?
But going back to it like when people dostart to like be like I'm curious about
this natural path or I'm curious aboutherbalism I'm curious about Ayurveda.
I'm curious about TC like whatever it is.
They're interested in

(01:12:06):
that's when you have to start looking atyourself.
And that's when you're saying the journeyis not just getting prescribed using
hydrosols on your skin because it's dry.
It's looking at why is your skin dry orwhy is your gut inflamed?
What's going on?
How are you talking to yourself?

(01:12:27):
Obviously, what are you eating and allthose things, but also how are you
treating yourself?
And like...
what is going on in a deeper level becausethe herbs also do not work in my
experience unless you're willing to allowthem to, unless you're willing to be like,

(01:12:47):
I'm an open receiver of this, you know,I'm open.
And you can't really be open.
again in my experience until you reallyhave been broken open.
And like sometimes that's really jarringand like super uncomfortable and painful.

(01:13:09):
Yeah, put that put that on your form forfinding out if you want to take a client
or not be like have you been drug throughthe mud recently?
Are you feeling broken down?
How shitty do you feel?
And have you have you finally collapsed onyour face and ready to acknowledge?

(01:13:31):
Yeah, I'm I'm working at this place.
Like this little like, like not clinic.
It's it's like a small company in Veniceand the focus and emphasis of the company
is on gut health.
And so I'm a health coach there and

(01:13:54):
One thing I really like about the formthat we use for clients there is the
question, how committed are you totransform your health on a scale of one to
10?
And it's interesting to see where peopleanswer.
Oftentimes, people fall in the seven,eight range.
I think I've seen one 10.

(01:14:15):
And I feel like I want to now couple thatquestion with, how broken are you?
Yeah, one to 10 and like, see, you know,the even maybe that will be the phrasing.
But yeah, maybe something like, like, howdifficult is life getting now?
You know, like something, something pokinginto that space to see, like, really,

(01:14:39):
because, I mean, I agree, you know, one,one of my teachers will always say, you
know, he's just like, plants areparticipatory.
which I think for a lot of people thatsounds just like, what does that mean?
And all these things.
And it's like, yeah, I mean, these plantshave constituents and like 60 % of your
biomedical, you know, pharmaceuticals aremade, you know, by either concentrating

(01:15:04):
these plants or synthetically recreatingthem.
How could it be that it's like, there'sthis participatory part, but that
participatory part is how you actuallystart to move toward.
I don't want to say causation, but source,right?
You start to move toward the sourcebecause it's like, Hey, your stomach's

(01:15:25):
inflamed.
Okay.
Well, it's because you're eating thesethings.
But then it's like, well, why are youeating those things?
Or why are we, you know, like for me, it'slike, I know that I overeat because I'm
not able to sit with whatever emotion iscoming up at that point in time that I
have not been able to transform thatemotion yet.

(01:15:46):
And so it's like, yeah, I overeat.
And now it's kind of like, well, hopefullyI can just overeat things that are quote,
better for me.
But it's still overeating at the end ofthe day, that's still putting stress on my
system.
But at least I know that over time, my endgoal is to actually at some point be able
to process that emotion underlying thaturge and craving and addiction to overeat.

(01:16:11):
And that that's actually what's drivingsome of my inflammation or gas or
bloating.
But at least I know that like, that'swhere I'm going, even though that may take
me five or 10 years or a lifetime.
But I'm not like, you know, I'm not justthinking that like, I'm going to take this
thing.
I'm going to change what I eat, and theneverything will be different.
And I think it's hard initially.

(01:16:33):
And I, yeah, I don't know.
It's I just think that like, that's
kind of like it's challenging to getpeople to understand that if they haven't
had like a maybe a personal experiencewith anything like that, you know, which
is I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, nothing'sgonna fix you, you know, like, nothing can

(01:16:55):
just fix you.
There's no magic cure.
Again, that's like a cliche.
I've heard that my whole life.
Like, there's no magic cure to like, feelhappier.
Because like,
Unfortunately, like you do have to look atyourself in order to say it's not
unfortunate.
It's just hard.
It's a challenging thing to do sometimesbecause you see the parts of yourself that

(01:17:18):
are kind of ugly or like, you know, whatyou would deem ugly or like deem bad, but
they're not bad.
They're just there.
And it's like you're saying like, I likethe overeating example, or it's just like,
well, yeah, what is this emotion that I'mtrying to like, maybe stuff down or?
like to just not have to deal with it,like what's actually bubbling up.

(01:17:43):
And, you know, often when we actually sitwith whatever that thing is, like for me,
like I am very impulsively angrysometimes.
Like I'm a very like, it surprises peoplewhen I tell them that, but it's because
I'm such a passionate person and this likepassion that comes out of me, like
sometimes turns into.

(01:18:04):
like, hostile anger.
And you know, especially to those close tome.
And like, I have really been like workingon it as much as possible, where I'm like,
what is this anger that's pouring out ofme?
Like, where?
What does this come from?
Like, why?
What's it triggered by?
But that's tough work.

(01:18:25):
And like, I'm not anywhere close to, youknow,
fully solving it by any means.
However, I know it's something, you know,again, the awareness of self, I think is
always like where you start.
And, you know, I also realized that like,if I, if I continue to stay angry, or if I
continue to let like, anger be anexperience that drives my actions or my

(01:18:52):
words, that will ultimately have.
like a physical effect on my body.
You know, I know that well enough thatthe, like the mental and psychological
space really can affect the physicalspace.
And I, for myself, like just know thatlike, okay, if I'm having this well up of

(01:19:14):
emotion happening, like I do need to workon it.
I need to set time aside daily if possibleto like.
go into that feeling and to explore it alittle bit because I don't want to have
long -term effects on like my liver forinstance because I'm harnessing all this
anger or you know and that's directlyrelated to the fact that I have like I'm

(01:19:39):
prone to chronic psoriasis you know andlike
Although I've managed to clear my skin andlike we can go back into that story if you
want to hear the end of it.
But like, it's not really ended, you know,like I still have psoriasis on my scalp
sometimes.
But again, like most of that cleared upbecause of releasing a lot of pent up

(01:20:02):
emotion, a lot of, you know, processing ofsadness, you know, and like,
And then just creating joy too.
It doesn't always have to be like, I haveto go like into like this horrible feeling
because that doesn't always make you feelbetter.

(01:20:22):
Like yes, cathartic crying is reallyhelpful.
And I do feel like crying is reallyimportant and healing water is just an
important like healing element.
but I also think like you can heal partsof yourself.
that are hurting by creating balance inthe opposite direction.

(01:20:47):
So it's like, yeah, I can go explore thisanger that I'm experiencing and be like,
yeah, it's obviously sadness underlying,where's the sadness coming from?
What's the childhood memory?
Whatever, all that stuff.
And also, I could choose to create humorand I could choose to be happy.
I could create joy as well.
And with the...

(01:21:08):
whole saga of like going to Peru, I, youknow, the experience was the medicine.
I was a teacher because I went therebecause of her, you know, she called me my
actual ceremony with Aya.

(01:21:29):
Roman had said, who was, you know, ourshaman, he sat with us the day before and
kind of like,
prepared us a little bit and he was like,we're all in a group together.
You know, everybody who's sitting here isa sangha.
We're, you know, doing this.
We're going to have this experiencetogether and it's going to be a collective
like medicine holding, you know, and we'reone organism when we all sit together and.

(01:21:57):
We will all have our own uniqueexperiences, but at the end of the day,
it's one collective and he described itand he was like.
One person will be the head of the dragonin the group and the other person will be
the tail of the dragon in the group.
And where everyone else lies is like onthe body of the dragon.

(01:22:17):
And I was so sick and I had all of thisprevious psychedelic experience, you know,
going to music festivals and eating a lotof acid.
And,
And you know, also like going into natureand eating a lot of mushrooms and you
know, being a stoner and I was like, like,I am the head of the dragon, like I was

(01:22:41):
call me like I will be the head of thedragon.
I remember thinking that to myself, whichis, you know, I remember having that
thought because at the time of having suchlike low self esteem and feeling so like
bad about myself, although I had likelittle wins of even just like being there
in the first place.

(01:23:04):
I had this like, aggressively, like,aggressively, you know, I don't want to
say confident because it's not confident,like cocky, I guess is the word like,
aggressively, like cocky thought that Iwas gonna be the head of the dragon.
And I we sat with the medicine the nextday or the next night.

(01:23:25):
And I didn't feel a single thing.
Like I did not have anything I felt like.
I barely experienced anything.
I just sat there.
It was a deep meditation.
I was so aware of everyone around mehaving an experience.
And I felt like I could go into theirexperience.

(01:23:49):
And like, I felt like I could identifywhat was happening in the placement of
those around me, although I couldn't seethem because it was like pitch black in
there.
And you know,
But I remember this woman, Annika, who waslike almost, she was sitting like almost
directly across from me in this giantroom.
And she was having a profound experience.

(01:24:11):
She was like talking to fairies and likehaving conversations out loud and like
screaming and crying and laughing.
And she had never had a psychedelicexperience in her life before.
And she went in and.
she was the head of the dragon and I wasthe tail of the dragon.

(01:24:32):
And like it was this really crazy,incredibly humbling experience because I
was honestly like kind of distraught atthe end of it where I was like, I came all
this way like to do this medicine to takethis medicine and like, I didn't even get
anything from it.
You know, like at the time, like I didn'teven get anything from this.

(01:24:54):
Like, I didn't see anything I didn't.
like release any of my demons.
Like I didn't, you know, go into pastlives.
Like I didn't see the spirit, like thegrandmother spirit, like come to me and
tell me anything wise.
Like I had none of it.
I just sat in the room for like six hoursin darkness and listened and heard

(01:25:17):
everything else going on around me.
Like I didn't purge, you know, I didn'teven go outside.
And you know, when I've shared this withothers, they're like, you probably just
didn't drink enough.
But I got seconds.
And like I drank enough ayahuasca, I drankjust as much as everyone else.
I just really genuinely think that themedicine was for me to not have an

(01:25:39):
experience because the medicine was to bethere, you know, and to be humbled,
really, it was very humbling.
She Yeah, I mean, she you would have ifyou would have had a really strong
experience, then you probably would havecame out with a huge amount of inflation.
And it would have been like, look at me,I'm now, you know, going to pursue
shamanhood and all these different things.

(01:26:00):
And it would have been much different.
But I mean, this is something that a lotof people, if you don't have any
experience as well, they're
the intelligence of those plants is so farbeyond ours.
It's absurd.
To me, it's like one of the main reasonsto like do it.

(01:26:21):
Like even if you don't get into any ofyour trauma or any of the things you think
you, you know, are there to do to justexperience that intelligence.
But I've watched it plenty of times and Iknow plenty of stories where you could
have the same medicine, the same dose.
someone will take it the first night andif they're not ready and she knows it, she

(01:26:44):
either won't give them a journey or shemight give them like diarrhea because
she's like, well, you're actually here fora party and your intention is like more
just like, I'm here to like do thesethings and I'm experimenting and she's
like, all right, you're gonna get diarrheauntil you like decide that you wanna honor
my spirit.
And then maybe by the next ceremony,they've actually processed a little bit

(01:27:08):
and then the exact same dose, the samemedicine made by the same people all of a
sudden, they'll have an experience thattime that's like, you know, a massive
experience.
And it's one of to be it's one of thecooler ways that she works actually, like
I was so radically humbled by thatexperience, you know, and I remember

(01:27:32):
feeling like,
almost like a hollowness after and liketotal ego lysis.
Like my ego had just like, was a balloonthat popped.
And there was one message that camethrough very strongly, consistently.
And it was this question and it was like,Aya saying to me, like, you, why are you

(01:27:57):
here?
Like, you know exactly what you need todo.
Like, why are you here?
You know exactly what you need to do.
And it was really as simple as meditatingand like having a meditation practice and
going inside and going inward.
Because I think at the time I was likeseeking so much outward validation and

(01:28:19):
like, you know, outward experience andstimulation and like the sensationalism of
being a human in the world and like beingoutward all the time.
And,
It was like just this deeply humbling andalmost like being seen so just poignantly

(01:28:42):
of being like, why are you here?
Like, you know exactly what you need todo.
And that's to just be with yourself, likego be with yourself and then like come
back when you're ready, you know, andexactly what you're saying.
Like, I feel like I was there because Iwas looking for something to help.

(01:29:03):
fix me and like to help fix what was goingon in my life.
And I was just like, fuck, no, that's notme.
Like you are here.
I called you here because you are supposedto be here and you're supposed to have
this experience.
And also you need to do the work onyourself first and foremost.

(01:29:25):
And I haven't actually sat with Ayahuascasince then.
And I do think one day like if...
And when the time is right and I'm in theright setting, like I will 100 % be open
to sitting with Aya again.
But like you said, I do think like, youknow, my experience, although it wasn't

(01:29:48):
outwardly or like, you know, it wasn'tthis deeply psychedelic experience was
exactly what I had to have.
And after that, you know, we did, we did,
sit with San Pedro quite a bit.
And I have to say that San Pedro, whichwas a plant that I was not familiar with,

(01:30:11):
Wachuma, was not, again, not something, anenergy that I knew of, more of like a kind
of like a fatherly energy, right?
Like that's how you would describe it.
In sitting with San Pedro consistently,I...

(01:30:32):
I got a lot of benefits.
That was like a healthy masculine teacherfor me, like healing, you know, the
wounded masculine inside of me, which wasvery much like toxic masculinity that we
all carry.
And that was like, heart like reallyharming my feminine spirit and my feminine

(01:30:57):
energy and like my receptivity and myopenness and like,
So San Pedro, we worked with as a powder.
We did a couple of full ceremonies withSan Pedro as a powder.
And then we would, that was my firstmicrodosing experiences as well, because

(01:31:18):
while we were working the land, we wouldtake little microdoses of San Pedro, which
I thought was really kind of cool.
And so, you know, I...
I lived there for a little over a month.
I spent a lot of time hiking.
Like there are three gardens on the land.

(01:31:40):
The garden that's by the kitchen.
There was a river bed garden that youhiked down to to the river and there was
like, you know, lots of fruit trees there.
And, and, and then there was the Cherimoyagarden, which is like,
you hiked for like an hour up themountain.
The first time it took like an hour andthen you got stronger because you were

(01:32:03):
living on a mountain, like in your tent.
So it was really cool by the end, I couldlike do that hike in like 20 minutes, like
no problem.
And you'd be like up in this incredibleplace, like up high on a mountain in this
garden just surrounded by plants and herbsand kale and.

(01:32:25):
giant term way of trees and just beauty.
And the San Pedro, like micro doses werehelpful for those experiences because San
Pedro like has been to my like memory andknowledge was, you know, is used by locals

(01:32:48):
to connect deeper with the land.
And.
is said to have an effect on you thatmakes you almost more animalistic and
primal, more like the cougar or the puma,where your senses become sharpened and you
just feel more agile.
At least that was my experience.

(01:33:09):
I felt more agile.
I was more like a cat roaming themountains.
The deeper, you know, the deeperexperiences with San Pedro when we would,
you know, be in ceremony as a group orwhen we prepared fresh cactus once and
made, you know, the fresh juice.

(01:33:32):
that was really powerful.
Like that was, you know, I felt reallyalive and I felt the vitality flowing
through my body and there was joy.
And then, you know, I remember on the one,the ceremony where we prepared the fresh
cactus, I just fell into like, it was verydifferent than the other experiences with

(01:33:56):
the powdered cactus.
I went into like a deep melancholy and Iwas feeling so bad for myself, like just
such deep self pity.
And it was really interesting because.
It was so interesting because I was inthis space where I felt such self -pity.

(01:34:19):
I was like, ugh, I'm such a victim of theworld.
I'm such a victim because my skin is soinflamed and I'm in so much physical pain
and everyone else is fine and having agreat time.
I...
And then like there was this other reallypotent energy coming through while like

(01:34:40):
that my ego is having this experience thatwas just like, get over it, like literally
get over it, like stop victimizingyourself like nobody is going to save you
like you're not a victim as much as anyoneelse's in the world.
Like you are responsible for how you feel.

(01:35:03):
like get the fuck over it.
And it was a really like a very intensewake up call.
And it was like this like firm fatherfigure just being like, they get it
together.
Like, yes, you're in pain.
And yes, that's valid.
And yes, like, but like, don't let thatlike take over your life and your
experience and pull you from being presentwhere you are.

(01:35:26):
And, you know, like, be with what is and
be okay with it, you know, and like, ifyou're not okay with it, do something
about it.
But don't just wallow.
And you know, I feel like that was a bigteacher for me, like that moment.
Because, like, we had taken it incommunity and in Sanga, and I was

(01:35:52):
definitely pulling the group down.
Like, I'm sure energetically, everyone isfeeling that there was like,
someone in the group that did not want toparticipate in the Tai Chi that we were
doing by the river.
Like I was very checked out and like insuch deep like egoic pain that I needed to

(01:36:18):
get corrected.
And like, I, I do feel like there was amoment there where like I
I had to just like kind of be shaken awakea little bit.
And it came through like with San Pedro aslike a consciousness that was in my body

(01:36:39):
and my mind and then also in the form ofanother person.
The chef at Paititi at the time, his namewas Elton and he and I had an interesting
dynamic.
I feel like we had like very like sibling,like.
sibling dynamic kind of and We're notsupposed to speak when you're like in San

(01:37:01):
Pedro ceremony, right?
Like you're communicating telepathicallylike pretty strongly and He came over and
he like sat with me and I don't even knowif there were actually words that were
exchanged but he like came over and it wasthat same exact energy like download of

(01:37:25):
being like a
get over it.
Like, you're here, like, deal with it.
You know, you can't go anywhere.
Like, where are you gonna go?
Like, you're like, eight hours off grid,you know?
So, yeah, I have deep reverence for SanPedro as a teacher.
I feel like that ended up being like a bigteacher for me.

(01:37:48):
I have deep reverence for Ayahuasca as ateacher too.
I feel like she was like,
honestly prepped me for the San Pedro toobecause I didn't know what was gonna come
from that.
And then the cocoa was always the thingthat just landed it at the end of the
night, like sitting in circle, breakingthe speaking fast and enjoying cocoa with

(01:38:13):
each other and sharing.
I mean, the plants are so beautiful outthere.
I'm so grateful.
It's wild.
Yeah, I feel like what Schumann isdefinitely more of my medicine.
At this point in time.
Doesn't mean like I'll never sit withayahuasca again, it just means that it
will have to be like when it when itcalls.

(01:38:35):
How's I think it's great, though, likemost people, you know, there's a lot of
old Zen stories from my understanding thatlike, usually the actual enlightened
master is the chef in the back.
that's like a well known thing.
And so, you know, I'm always curious tolike get these like chef stories because
it is a lot of the chefs that hold itdown, you know, and they're just like in

(01:38:56):
the back.
Actually enlightened, but I thought it wasgreat when you like brought up like a
little bit of chef teaching there is like,honestly, I, it was really, I mean, like,
I didn't have time to be ashamed orembarrassed of myself really, because it
was so obvious that like,

(01:39:18):
this was the energy I was carrying.
So like, if I felt embarrassed or ashamed,although I did, but like, if I really held
on to that, it would have just brought thegroup down further, you know?
So it was a quick like, get the fucktogether.
And like, I, I have to thank Elton forthat for sure.
You know, like he, he embodied theteaching, you know?

(01:39:42):
Yeah, yeah, it is like that.
Yeah, my experience.
I had a really strong journey this lasttime and it was like 12 hours.
I did two full doses and it was like, wewere down there in dragon realm for sure.
You know, like it was a heavy lift thatnight.

(01:40:07):
But that medicine is for me, it's morenavigatable than.
than ayahuasca is for me usually.
I feel like I can navigate with huachuma alot better.
That huachuma is in some ways kind oflike, hey, if you want to carry a strong
intention with me right now, then I'lltake you where you need to go, but you

(01:40:28):
kind of need to.
be very clear that you want to go there.
Whereas Ayahuasca might just like grab meby the back of the head and be like, do
you see that?
You know, like, here's this emotion thatyou've been avoiding your entire life for
all these years, you have no idea what itis or what it means, but it's right here
now in front of you.
You know, whereas I feel like Wachuma ismuch more like, you know, I had one

(01:40:51):
experience at a long dance.
That was my first ever Wachuma experience.
And, you know, we had to do...
you do five hours in a circle to the leftaround the fire to start and then you do
five hours to the right.
And essentially it's much more of a andit's through the night you walk through
the night you can't sit down really youcan sit down like a max of like 30 to 40

(01:41:14):
seconds and then the guys like moving youalong like keep it moving.
And it's more it's more of like a landcleansing ceremony than
than personal in a lot of ways, right?
Like it's kind of like the land, you startto create a vortex with the circle and
then the land will bring up anything thatit needs to transmute and it kind of
transmutes through us as we're goingaround in a circle and whether or not

(01:41:38):
we're playing music and singing andwhatever.
But you're going round and round.
I got my ass kicked that night.
It was like the coldest night of theentire winter and...
like my left knee started bothering me andI needed to drink more medicine.
I didn't have like enough.
And there was something coming up withlike my biological father's side of the

(01:42:01):
family.
And I could feel it like bubbling.
And then Watrumo like very clearly waslike, look, it's right here.
If you want to go deeper into this, thenyou need to go drink some more medicine.
you know, if you really want to experiencethis right now, then you need to go have

(01:42:21):
more medicine.
And unfortunately, I just could not fathomlike having more medicine with like how
bad my knee was hurting.
And so I just like, wasn't able to getthere that night.
And, but I think, I think that that momentgave me kind of an indication of like, I

(01:42:41):
do feel like this is more of my medicine,because it feels like,
like all of them are intention -based, butI felt like this one was a little bit more
easy for me to work with in that way, youknow?
But what I think is cool is in like, wecan talk about entheogens, you know,
forever, but it's like all the plants areworking like this, you know?

(01:43:04):
Most people don't realize that like, ifyou start consuming chamomile in...
strong doses and praying to it and workingwith it every day for a month, you're
going to have experiences if you're opento them, right?
And it may not be, it may not be likeyou're getting blasted off and like 3D

(01:43:27):
imagery, but it'll be more of like that,that mythic story that you were telling
earlier where it's like, I was on amountainside and I was scared.
And now I have this like mantra for whenI'm scared.
know what I mean?
So it may be a song that comes there likea melody that comes through or just any
other teaching.
But they're all there to teach.

(01:43:49):
And and that's been more of my path isjust like an everyday you know, drinking
different, you know, what I call you like,I mean, regular, whatever that means, you
know, but like kitchen, everyday herbs,everyday herbs, garden herbs, you know, I
fully agree with that.
I feel like

(01:44:09):
for anyone who's wanting to really explorethe consciousness of plants.
Ideally, you have a garden and are able totend to them and learn from them in their
living form, or just have a couple ofherbs on your balcony or patio or

(01:44:31):
windowsill.
But even the dried herbs, like you'resaying, have so much medicine and...
knowledge in them.
Where, like, like you're saying, like inthe preparation, like, what's your
intention of making this tea that you'remaking, you know, and like, can you give

(01:44:51):
yourself, you know, like, a little bit oftime to commune with it, you know, before
you're like, just unconsciously drinkingit, or same with tinctures or anything,
you know, it's like, consciousness ofplants is so cool.
And
I've had moments with plants, like I havea story of this motherwort plant that I

(01:45:15):
had in my garden on the East Coast.
And I had this really epic, massive gardenat this place that I lived.
It was this like river side home.
I like love rivers, they're definitelymy...
my like, I love oceans too, but rivers, Idon't know something about them.

(01:45:41):
Yeah.
And I lived on this river in Dartmouth,Massachusetts.
And I, I like had this really epic gardenand unfortunately, like the house, there
was a lot of conflict between the humansin the house.

(01:46:02):
You know, it didn't start that way, butthen,
it ended that way.
There was, you know, some unspoken fearand emotions and it just never got
cleared.
And the person who owned the house, mylandlord, got involved with some of the

(01:46:27):
problems in the house.
So the short and the long is like, Iwas...
moving out of the home to move to anotherhome that was like beautiful and ended up
being like one of the my favorite placesI've ever lived.
But I was planning on continuing to be thecaregiver of the land there.

(01:46:50):
Bye.
It was like a...
little contract that I had basically withthis homeowner and landowner and I planted
it was May and I had planted like all thebeds, you know with like hundreds of
plants, you know tons of Tulsi and lemonbalm and ashwagandha and Cannabis like I

(01:47:15):
grew I you know, I'm cannabis that wasready to go and saw the beds were planted
and then all my vegetables and
and then this big motherwort plant and theconflict between the humans in the home,
although I was moving out, like became sogreat that there was like this issue that

(01:47:40):
just like exploded, that I was liketotally kind of in the wrong in, you know,
in retrospect, but it just wasn't handledwell.
And...
I basically got evicted from the garden.
And it was so painful because I had justput so much time into this garden because

(01:48:05):
I was told I could, you know, give tend toit and give it love for the season that
was coming up, right?
Like it was the beginning of the season.
And I just planted all these plants and itwas so.
sad and I was just like, damn, like, whatam I going to do?

(01:48:26):
Like, I can't leave these plants here.
Like I just, and you know, there were somethings I couldn't dig up because they were
like squashes and I don't know, like theywere like pumpkins and things that I felt
like I put so much time into digging intothe earth so they could really root that I
was like, I just have to leave them here.
But I ended up going on a mission with oneof my friends and we ended up like, you

(01:48:50):
know, carefully.
digging up the plants that could come withus and transplanting them into my parents
garden.
That was like 20 minutes down the road.
And then my new house, which was more of acity house and had a yard, but didn't have

(01:49:11):
any raised beds.
And I wasn't allowed to build any raisedbeds at it, which was tough for me.
So I ended up having to like repot stuffand put it in pots.
And one of the plants I ended up puttingin like a giant pot was this motherwort
plant.
And like for those who don't know,motherwort is an herb that is really

(01:49:34):
helpful for like cardiac tension.
Like it helps with the heart and helpsheal, you know, issues with the heart
physically and also emotionally andspiritually.
It's a very like interesting plant becauseit grows, it's in the mint family and it
has these like little thorns that likekind of grow between the leaves and the

(01:49:57):
flowers.
And so when you're processing it, you haveto be careful to like, you know, take off
the leaves and like not get the thorns inyour medicine or on yourself.
And so I remember like bringing the motherwork back to my new home.
that night after like hours of like cryingand feeling sad and then also feeling

(01:50:22):
angry and then feeling motivated and thenbeing like, we're gonna save these plants
and you know, feeling like this wholejourney of emotions.
And I brought the motherwort home and Iwas as I was putting it down in its new
like place where it was going to live.
I like faintly smelled it.
And that was fascinating becausemotherwort is not an aromatic

(01:50:46):
plant.
It doesn't release scent.
And it was the only time that I have everreally smelled motherwort.
Like she like released a scent for me.
And it was like, wild because I had neversmelled motherwort before.
Like I'd taken it so many times, but toreally smell like the scent of motherwort.

(01:51:10):
And I like just broke down and like,
felt all my emotions and I was like, myGod, like, I'm so happy you're here.
Like, I love you so much.
Like, I'm so grateful for this plant.
And I felt a lot of softening around myheart and like, just, you know, feeling
okay with what was, although it was reallyhard.

(01:51:31):
And then, you know, my friend and myroommate, my new roommate at the time, I
told her what had happened and she wasjust like, well, could it be possible that
the mother wore...
was what orchestrated this whole journeyin the first place.
Most likely.
Yeah.
Could it be possible that she wanted to beclose to you and she didn't want you to be

(01:51:58):
living half an hour away and coming andvisiting every so often?
What if the mother weren't wanted you totake care of her every day and be one with
these plans and have them in a spacewhere, yes, it was a beautiful garden, but
like...
what was the energy surrounding thegarden?
Maybe the plants wanted to get out.

(01:52:19):
And it was really cool to have thatawareness.
And since then, I've just kind of, I'vereally like, that was a really eye
-opening moment that was quasi-psychedelic and being like.
Yeah, these plants speak to us and theyhave their own intentions and they have

(01:52:40):
their own plans and they are orchestratorsof our journey.
Like they guide us through life.
And isn't that hilarious to think aboutlike behind the scenes like all these
plants are just like pulling the stringsand they're like, these silly, these silly
sapiens like think they're actually likein control and control things and of us.

(01:53:03):
Yeah.
And meanwhile, they're like,
she'll be moving next month, you know, andlike, the landlord, they're like plotting
mine, they're like, hang on, no, no, wait,what if the landlord steps in now, and
then he vicks her and they're like, yeah,they're like, let's go with that plot.
my god, I love it.

(01:53:24):
Because it really was a silly like plan asa human, like be like, I'm moving, like
I'm physically moving everything.
But like, I'm gonna like keep coming backand tending to this land.
And you know, I'm sure I would have doneit.
I'm sure I would have, but like not to thesame degree that I ended up caring for
those plants, like being, you know, closeto me and also giving them the care of my

(01:53:48):
parents who are amazing gardeners and likelove taking care of plants and the earth.
And so, yeah, it's really funny to thinkabout and yeah, they're wild, they're wild
beings, those plants, you know?
For sure, for sure.
Well, I actually think we should probablystop there for today.

(01:54:10):
I have a meeting actually at 2 .30 withlike one of the top experts in Korean
natural farming.
I love that.
For possibly helping out this olive andalmond and pistachio grower here in town.
So we're gonna have a call with them andsee what.

(01:54:30):
what they can possibly do and try and whatare we doing?
We're planting vibrations here back in thecentral Valley in California, trying to
get some natural farming going if we can.
So I love it.
I need some, I need some brain power forthat later to just see what's going on.
But I had an absolute fantastic time and Ifeel like there's just so much more to

(01:54:55):
explore that obviously we could keep goingfor like multiple hours.
but why not, you know, save it.
We'll catch up again, you know, at somepoint soon and maybe dive, you know, into
your, more into your practice and yeah,whatever comes up, it's endless.
So I also have some, yeah, when you'retalking about Venus earlier and like, like

(01:55:20):
the Venus stuff is probably really big forme this year.
So we can go into that too.
Yeah, we'll chat for sure.
I love it.
Cool.
Yeah, have a good time in the desert andgood luck getting bio oriented.
Thank you.
And I think this was this was an awesome,awesome, awesome time.
So yeah, thank you.
And when I put this up, I'll let you know.

(01:55:43):
And then put your website as well.
Things like that.
So people do want a or is the websiterunning right now in terms of team?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Everything is like functioning and up andrunning for the most part.
Well, for anyone listening, you'll learnmore about all of that next time, but I'll
put a link whenever it does get posted forfor the website.

(01:56:06):
So if you want really intentionallycrafted medicine, then you know a place to
go.
So yeah, thanks for thanks for coming onSophia.
Yeah, you're awesome.
Same.
Appreciate you.
Yeah, same.
This has been fun.
And yeah, I'm gonna end it there.
Let's see.

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