EP9: Advancing Hurricane Forecasting with Sharks with Caroline Wernicke

Caroline Wernicke from the University of Delaware discusses using sharks as ocean observing platforms to collect data for predicting weather patterns. The conversation also touches on the challenges of balancing different stakeholders' interests in environmental management, the importance of incorporating indigenous knowledge, and the potential benefits and risks of seaweed farming. 

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
All right.
Good morning, Caroline.
Thank you for being here with us today.
Today is a show that I'm especiallyexcited about because it continues our
endeavor into animals and their ability towork with weather and our ability to work
with animals to understand whether this isa curiosity of mine, pretty much a

(00:22):
lifetime, but especially the past threeyears.
So today we have Carolyn Wernicke and
She is from the University of Delaware.
She's been doing research there and that'show I came across their work.
They've just published in the past maybe acouple of years.
I can't remember the exact date on someshark research they're doing connected

(00:44):
with hurricane data and all sorts of otherreally interesting things.
So Caroline, thank you for being on theshow this morning.
Thanks for having me, Justin.
I'm pumped to be here and to talk aboutthe cool stuff we're doing with.
sharks and trying to predict the weather.
Yeah, awesome.
So I'll just go ahead and let you kind ofgive us your background.

(01:05):
And maybe if you want to start with, youknow, the kind of current, you know,
University of Delaware, but then I thinkyou were also associated with the Navy in
some way previously or still currently.
And then let's also just talk about kindof maybe even a little bit of childhood.
If I mean, did this curiosity, you know,spawn a long time ago?

(01:26):
and what was, you know, what's the journeybeen like?
Absolutely.
So as you mentioned, I am currently agraduate student working with the Carlisle
Lab at the University of Delaware.
I'm a PhD candidate in my fourth yearworking on this project that's looking at
using sharks for the first time as oceanobserving platforms.

(01:49):
And that's just a fancy term for sayingusing sharks.
to carry sensors to collect data forscientists and managers as they're
swimming about their habitat in the ocean.
Before coming to Delaware, I was workingas a Knauss Fellow in Washington, D .C.
with the Office of the Oceanographer atthe Navy.
You might be familiar with that campus.

(02:10):
That's the campus where the Vice Presidentlives and where Naval Oceanography has
been based for the past couple hundredyears.
And...
before working for the Navy.
I did my master's at the University ofMaryland at the Center for Environmental
Studies down on their Salomon's campus.
And yeah, so that's the academicbackground.

(02:35):
I would say that my interests have alwaysbeen looking at more applied types of
environmental science.
So thinking about, you know, how do we goabout
You know, we're collecting all this cooldata.
We're learning so much every day.
The ocean is a rapidly changing place.

(02:55):
People are doing a lot of cool things withocean science, with ocean technology,
relying on the ocean.
How can we try to take some of theinformation that we're learning and try to
come up with practical, flexible, dynamicsolutions for problems that we're facing
all the time?

(03:15):
But when I think about what got me here,
I was always interested in being outside.
I grew up in Maryland.
We spent a lot of time on the Chesapeake.
And what I think was, when I think abouthow I got to where I am, I definitely

(03:39):
tried a little bit of everything beforesettling on this sort of interdisciplinary
work with sharks and robotics.
I mean, I...
I was joking with my friend the other day,you know, like you really try a little bit
of everything to get the full picture forthese complicated, bigger marine systems.
I went through a seagrass phase, I like tocall it, in undergrad I went through a

(04:01):
whale phase.
I feel like all marine biologists shouldgo through a whale phase.
But it was actually when I was doing fieldwork in the Gulf of California with their
marine mammal program at the PrescottField Station.
It's an area that...
It has a lot of rich, small scale fisheryculture.

(04:23):
And I was sort of drawn into sort oflooking at this more like direct human
impact on the environment.
And so that was my junior year of college.
And then I took a hard left into fisheryscience.
I was like, I want to see more about like,what are people doing?
How are people being impacted?
You know, we're all part of this dynamicsystem.

(04:43):
And so that led to me, my master's inMaryland.
looking at the original project was tolook at how a popular recreational and
important recreational fish species, blacksea bass, would be impacted by
construction for offshore wind sites.
Because that was a very, this was in 2017,2018, and that was a very active time for

(05:08):
offshore wind leasing in the mid-Atlantic.
And that's actually resurfaced in the pastcouple of years, which is exciting.
Unfortunately, when I was doing mymasters, the company that was responsible
for the construction experiencedconstruction logistical delays.
This happens with bigger projects likethat.
So we had put out animal tags and acousticreceivers, just a very simple way.

(05:33):
We put out black sea bass easy passes.
This is how my boss would describe it.
We give the fish an easy pass.
If they swim past an underwater receiverthat we've put out, we know that this fish
was in the area.
So we had this out for a few years.
Construction never started, which happensin science.
But what was cool was that we had thisopportunity to do baseline work, just

(05:56):
listening to the environment, how fishwere acting in the environment.
And that actually led to this really neatperspective on how these animals were
responding to natural disturbance or inthe mid -Atlantic hurricanes.
So.
We had them out over the summer.
Summer storms would come in and weactually saw this cool response to that

(06:17):
hadn't had sort of been tangentiallyfocused, but not really like honed in on
just sort of like what the bigger picturenatural disturbance environment is for
these fish.
And so that sort of started me being moreinterested in thinking about storms as a
part of the broader marine environment.
And after completing my masters, I.

(06:39):
I'm kind of interested in thisoceanography.
We've got the fisheries background, butI'm kind of interested in this
oceanography stuff.
And so I took a year working with the Navyand Ocean Policy as a fellow in DC.
And then I was looking for my PhDopportunity.
I was really interested at the work beingdone at UD.

(07:00):
And that's how I worked here.
Cool.
Very cool.
Well done.
That was a great concise little storythere.
And so let's take maybe our first, well,we won't, there's no such thing as a
detour here.
but before we kind of come into thesharks, I am interested.

(07:21):
So, you know, I grew up where we would gocamping on the central coast of
California, right?
So kind of Morro Bay, Montana, De Oro, SanSimeon area.
And so, whales was a big part.
of, you know, every time we would gothere, we would go out to look for whales
along the coast.
sometimes we would go whale watching, youknow, I think probably one of the most

(07:45):
just viscerally impactful moments in mylife was we were out to see probably
great, no, probably humpback whalesoutside of in Tura.
And we actually stumbled into a pod oforcas.
which is super rare and just the feelingthat day was actually amazing because you

(08:06):
knew something big was happening becausethe crew was losing their mind.
You know, like the crew was extremelyexcited and then we got to spend the whole
day with this pod of workers.
and then for us as well, you know, I justcame back from California and I went with
my grandparents again to, we normallywould go to see the elephant seals.
a couple of different times during theyear to see, you know, whether it's

(08:29):
they're having their pups or they're inthe mating season or just kind of showing
up there a couple of different times ayear to just kind of see what it was like.
And, it's actually getting better as I getolder, I'm enjoying it more and more
actually.
and so, you know, one of the big issues,right off the California coast right now,

(08:52):
that's been a battle and there was a,there's actually,
a tribe, it's probably I think it's thenorthern Chumash, who've been trying to
make that part of Morro Bay and the coastout there sanctuary because there is a
large scale energy project slotted to goout there.
And it's right in the migration of bluewhales hump.

(09:14):
I think there's 30 different species orsomething like that, that migrate through
that area.
And so what what are your guys's thoughtson these things?
I mean, is it?
Is there a way to make it all work or atthe end is it looking like it's a big
impact with whether that sound inhibitionfor the animals and their ability to echo

(09:36):
locate or things like that?
I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
Absolutely.
I feel like that off of that, that's thetype of scenario that we're seeing all
over the place.
There's so many different stakeholders,people with interests, needs, reliances.
on these systems.
And, you know, as a scientist, my job isto find the facts and to really, I think

(10:03):
what's important is to be taking intoaccount every perspective and sort of like
the facts and the, and weighing, you know,there's trade, trade -offs, there's so
many trade -offs with these.
And, you know, we're seeing some,
similar conversations on the East Coastwith offshore wind and like historical

(10:29):
like ground fisheries.
And this is a very hot topic in NewEngland with scallop and the ground
fisheries up there.
And I don't think I have a concrete answerfor you on the best way forward.
if one comes up, I'll let you know, andwe'll solve all these problems.

(10:50):
But it is complicated.
And I think what's frustrating is thinkingabout how, you know, like,
I mean, a couple of things, like these areimpacts of timelines, you know, like when
construction starts and sort of likeharder turnarounds.
And also like understanding all of theimpacts to the system.

(11:15):
You know, you won't really know everythinguntil it's happened.
And if you're trying, especially forprotected species, like some of these
marine mammal species, like trying to seethe situation from every angle and be
prepared.
and sort of have those upfrontconversations with all of the stakeholders
at play.
What is a good compromise?

(11:36):
Nobody's happy, but you know, trying to,trying to, and thinking about what the
priorities are.
And do you feel like as, as a scientistis, is that a challenge?
Cause I feel like a lot of times, youknow, science is almost in this kind of

(11:57):
data trap, right?
It's, it's always, well, we need more dataand you know, and then, and then the, the
politicians and the other stakeholders canalso use that and say, well, you guys need
to have more data for us to make thisdecision or to not do this.
And I mean, does that, do you guys seethat a lot happening?

(12:20):
I'm starting to see more of it.
So I still consider myself early -clear,but as I'm going out, I recently attended
a workshop in New York that was looking atsort of how do we navigate.
the management and public perception ofsharks in the New York Bight, because I

(12:43):
think it was in the past two or threeyears, there was a spike in shark attacks
off of Long Island.
You have multiple different interestedgroups.
You had folks focused on conservation.
The majority of, I should say a largeportion of the species in this area are
still recovering by management terms.

(13:05):
So it's not like we're seeing a
We're seeing growth, but it's not likewe're seeing a bombardment of sharks
returning to the area per se.
So you've got conservation folksinterested with that perspective.
You've got scientists who are interestedin sort of like, you know, understanding
what's going on.
Or if you're a fisheries manager, thensort of controlling and understanding how

(13:29):
to restore these populations.
You've got tourism agencies who want to...
quote, quote, keep the beaches safe, youknow, like the jaws stick, but, you know,
figuring out what is factual and thenfiguring out what's, what's important, you
know, like making sure that theinformation that's being used is correct.

(13:55):
And if there are, I'm realizing that thereare some issues that folks are realizing
going to, you know, like, what's the rightthing to do or what's the wrong thing to
do.
I mean, that gets,
very complicated very quickly.
But I'm starting to see that and sort ofgrappling with, you know, like, what are

(14:15):
you, what's actually happening?
That's why I do think it's important tosort of take in as many perspectives as
possible, just to really understand, Imean, like the mosaic of the situation.
I hope that answers your question.
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.
It's super complicated, I think.
Yeah.
Coming from this, I come from more oflooking at it through the indigenous and

(14:39):
more ancient perspectives where it wasjust harmony was the fundamental
underlying thing.
And so it's interesting to watch withscience being inherently reductionistic,
it's very difficult for it to understandwholism in a way.
And so you're seeing with like treeplanting,

(15:02):
things happening across the world.
And then 10 years later, then the researchsays, well, you know, actually, we
shouldn't have planted half the trees wedid.
They were the wrong trees, not the rightspecies.
And, you know, indigenous people wouldhave never done that, right?
Like they understand how their ecosystemswork and that every being is
interconnected.
And so it's just interesting to watch aswell.

(15:25):
this the differences in worldview of howthese things can be approached, right,
where there's now some organizations thatare realizing actually, instead of us
trying to quote, protect the jungle or doresearch, it actually is better for us to
just hand this over to these tribes thatare not being economically influenced,

(15:47):
right, because there are tribes that arebeing influenced in ways where they've now
had to.
think economically differently than theyhave before.
And then they actually might exploit theland in some way, but there are still
tribes that know how to manage theirlandscapes and ecosystems in ways that we
just can't even begin to understand.

(16:09):
And so, yeah, go ahead.
I agree.
I think that that's a criticalperspective.
generations of knowledge, intimacy withthe environment and familiarity in a
perspective that.
A lot of other stakeholders and peoplecurrently management don't necessarily

(16:31):
have.
I mean, the dichotomy, I'm going to bringit back to a fisheries example, but, you
know, like scientists versus, you know,watermen who have working, been working
the water for generations.
I saw this sort of like back and forth alittle quite a little bit when I was
working in the Chesapeake because you goto these fisheries, these management
conferences, and you have scientiststaking their piece.

(16:52):
And then you have, you know, just peoplewho are.
incredibly familiar and up close andworking with the resource and seeing it in
a perspective with just a duration of timethat is so invaluable.
And oftentimes in fisheries and I thinkit's getting better.
I hope it's getting better.
But we're starting to see moreincorporation of that, that level of

(17:14):
knowledge.
Okay, yeah, I think I think more and more.
And it's it's interesting to see.
Yeah, like, I read a lot of research whereit's just,
researchers who were trying to get otherresearchers to realize that, hey, these
indigenous people actually probably know alot more than you and you need to go and
try and learn from them.

(17:35):
And so it's always kind of fun to see whatpeople are working on.
Okay, the last difficult one, and thenwe're going to move into the current shark
stuff.
So what are your thoughts on?
What are your thoughts on?
I'm a, I'm very hesitant right now with.
the amount of startups working withseaweed and food sources or for cattle and

(18:03):
all these different things.
You said you went through a seagrassphase.
So maybe you don't, you know, you can tellme if you want to talk about this or not,
but it's, it's, I think we've shown withon land farming, how bad we can be at
farming with destruction of the earth.
And so I'm curious of, I mean, do you, doyou see,

(18:23):
like seaweed farming is being somethingthat actually becomes beneficial or just
what does your gut tell you that likewe're actually going down a pretty
slippery slope with the amount of startupsand companies that are now trying to
integrate these and next thing you know itbecomes a super food and it's exploited
everyone runs to Whole Foods or whatever.

(18:44):
I just saw seaweed bacon the other day youknow and so I'm interested to see if you
if you have any.
Just what are your human thoughts on, noteven the scientist part of you, but just
what are your immediate thoughts on that?
Absolutely.
So I'm not as immediately familiar withthe burgeoning seed economy.

(19:04):
I'm going to be looking at it afterwards,so this sounds fascinating.
But my gut reaction is...
What are the immediate costs, you know,just in terms of like, you know, resources
to get the seaweed harvest andmanufacturing going?

(19:27):
Is it, is it act like, is what is the netbenefit?
You know, like if you start to compare,like, I guess like what are the goals and
what are the costs and are we meetingthem?
And what does that look like in the shortterm and what is that gonna look like?
in the long term.
You know, like, will it?

(19:48):
Will it become this widespread accessibleresource?
Will it or will it sort of be in a moreniche market?
Will it reduce emissions?
Will it or will we have to be shippingseaweed worldwide?
I'm not sure.
I think just like understanding what theshort -term goals are and how do we see

(20:11):
that evolving and what does sustainabilitylook like for that in the future?
BAM!
Yeah, no, it's such a tricky one.
I spend my days pondering these things andjust wondering of, you know, from my
perspective, even I think so muchsustainability in this hyper focus on one

(20:34):
symptom being carbon is actually leadingus into a lot of bad ideas.
And so it's like, yeah, maybe seaweed isbetter in terms of carbon.
But what about biodiversity?
all of a sudden now you're farming allalong the coast and what happens to all
the really small species, the fish inthose areas and not everyone is fishing in

(21:01):
the same way and everyone's fishingdifferently and just all of the challenges
that come with that.
And just as an herbalist, I pay a lot ofattention to the superfood industry and
how that is just a total marketing ideaand watching
seaweed more and more.
You can start to see it to grow and thenyou start to see it with replacing meat

(21:23):
and all these different things.
But at the end of the day, we won't knowfor 20 or 30 years, at least what the
possible impacts of this are.
And meantime, you know, we're going to goforward with it.
The other use they're using it for is ifyou actually mix in a little bit with
cattle feed, it reduces the methaneemission from cow farts.

(21:47):
Yeah, so that's, you know, that's, it's,yeah, it's like, kind of cool.
But then it's like, but does that mean wekeep on doing cattle the same way we don't
actually change the cattle?
There's just so many questions with allthese things, you know, and then trying to
figure out which direction to go.
But, okay, well, we will now let's let'smove into kind of your current curiosity.

(22:13):
I mean, are you still
When was this paper published on thecurrent shark information?
So this was, so that wasn't actually aformal publication.
This was just a white paper, which is sortof like a step below.
It hasn't gone through peer review.
That publication should be, well,finishing up the manuscript now.
So stay tuned for that one.

(22:35):
But this was released as a part of anoceans conference in 2022.
And it was sort of the,
first step in thinking about, well, wheredo we want to place sharks in this ocean
observing data collecting type of space?

(22:56):
Okay.
And tell us again, what is the, it's likeOOB, what is it again?
Yep.
So we're looking at how sharks are oceanobserving platforms.
And so when I was,
starting this work and you know writingout things ocean if you have a word count
ocean observing platforms takes up a lotof space so it's like oops that's a great

(23:17):
acronym and if you're feeling wild you cancall them supes for shark ocean observing
platforms but yeah so what we're sayingocean observing platform i mentioned
before it's just the catch -all for stuffthat we're using to measure

(23:38):
features or conditions in the ocean.
And so more traditional ways to think ofthat, thinking about like in the 17 or
1800s, when people were crossing the oceanand dropping a bucket overboard to measure
water temperature, that would be ship-based, that would be considered a very
old ship -based sensor.

(24:00):
So traditionally ships have been carryingthese devices, you know,
more modern ways we have the CTD or theconductivity temperature depth profile,
which is an instrument that is dropped andlowered.
And it measures ocean temperature, thesalinity, how salty the water is, and the

(24:21):
depth as it's lifted back up.
So that's a very common platform.
more modern ones that we've developed, wethink about underwater robots or so one of
the labs that I work with at UD is aglider lab.
And autonomous glider, the way I like todescribe it is it's sort of like a yellow
torpedo shape with wings and it sort ofdrifts up and down through the water

(24:47):
column being carried by changes inbuoyancy and can be fixed with a whole
number of sensors.
We've got your CTD profilers.
We also send out riders to measurechlorophyll or backscattering.
So how much stuff is in the water detectedthrough changes in sound reflectance.

(25:10):
And these were modern devices, you know,they're wonderful.
They can measure all types of things, butfor finding they have a limit.
You know, thinking about logisticallylike.
they're limited in terms of where we cansend them based on the weather or the

(25:30):
ocean conditions, by battery life.
And so the thought is, we have the tag andthe sensor technology, and is there a way
that we can put them out on animals andwork with animals that are going to these
places all the time and sort of likesampling quote unquote, just in their

(25:52):
natural habitat.
And so,
This idea of animal oops was started inthe early 2000s and has seen a lot of
success initially with southern elephantseals being deployed in Antarctica.
So if you think about going to Antarcticaand trying to collect data in Antarctica,

(26:13):
it's hard to get there.
And depending on the time of year, youmight not want to go when it's a bit
colder and a bit darker and a bit rougher.
So a lot of the data that we...
currently have for this area, you know,it's limited by the time of year.
You can only get so much information byhow much sensors you can put out.

(26:36):
And so this movement towards developinganimal tags, carrying these sensors, you
know, I want to say it was between 2008and 2013.
This was when the work was published, soit was collected in 2004 and 2005.
But in that summer of 2004, 2005, thesetagged elephant seals were able to

(26:57):
increase the amount of winter data thatwas collected in the current system by
like 3000%.
It was an insane amount.
I don't have the exact number of tags thatwere put out off the top of my head.
I want to say it was on the order of likemaybe 30 to 60.
So not a ton of animals, but just.

(27:19):
you know, in some of these very datalimited areas, having a sensor that can go
out and go to places where people can'treally go with consistency that people
can't really are limited to do.
That sparked a lot of interest in sort oflike, well, okay, like where else, where
else can we, can we enlist some, somemarine animals to help us collect this

(27:42):
data?
Right.
And just to,
It's amazing.
Just to zoom out really quick for theaudience is one other major component.
I think that you guys are really, youknow, bringing to the table with all this
data is that ocean data is very scarcecompared to Earth days, land -based data

(28:04):
as of today.
You know, if you were to look at things,the amount of data we have on land of, you
know, whether it's, you know,
weather or geography, geology, just allthe information that we have around the
earth itself, as a land -based thingversus the ocean.

(28:25):
The ocean is really, we're just at thebeginning in terms of sensors and, and
looking into all the different things.
And so you mentioned so many different,like there's so many different variables
and, and really that, you know,
vast majority of them, we don't reallyknow exactly what they mean in so many
ways, but there are correlations.

(28:47):
I think I came to your guys' researchthrough, there's a different shark in the
Gulf Coast that they watched how it movedout of shallow areas in different areas,
like hours before the hurricane makeslandfall.
And then that stumbled me, I think, intoyour research.

(29:10):
And so tell us about, you know, what areyou looking for out there with the sharks?
Absolutely.
So the University of Delaware is on thecoast in a portion of the United States
that's known as the Mid -Atlantic Bight.

(29:31):
So that's that sort of stretch ofcoastline from Cape Hatteras, North
Carolina to...
the coast of the southern coast ofMassachusetts, Georgia's banks.
And what's interesting about this stretchis that we have some of the most highly
stratified water in the world.

(29:52):
And so what that means is that by peaksummer, when the sun has been beating down
on the surface of the ocean for the pastfew months, the difference in temperature
between the top of the water,
is way, way, way, way warmer than thetemperature at the bottom of the water.
We're talking about like a 14 to 20 degreeCelsius change in places.

(30:16):
And if you're not a physicaloceanographer, you might be like, okay,
that's neat.
Why do we care?
And the thing is, and this ties to thebroader goal with the sharks project, it
has an impact for how we can predict howhurricanes move through.
and how strong they are when they comeinto this area.

(30:37):
So the way I like to think about it isthat for hurricanes, warm water is like
gas and cold water is like breaks.
And so this stratified water structure,it's driven by this lump of very cold
water that just hangs out at the bottomoff the coast of Delaware and Maryland's
New York called the cold pool.

(30:59):
And all we need to know about the coldpool is that it forms every year, it hangs
out at the bottom over the summer.
And it's the reason why we see that verystrong temperature gradient.
And what we're trying to do with oursharks project is to understand during
that peak hurricane season, July, August,September, where is that?

(31:20):
How are those layers of warm and coldwater situated?
Or how thick are they?
Are they shifting?
And this is really important because thedegree of stratification or where that
whole pool is relative to shore can impacthow strong, how intense those hurricanes
will be when they come to shore.

(31:42):
So the example that I like to use was thedifference in prediction and response with
tropical storm Irene in 2011 and thenhurricane Sandy in 2012.
So Irene was predicted to be significantlystronger than
actually happened.
And unfortunately, through King's Sandy,we saw the reverse where it was called to

(32:03):
be weaker or to move.
And then we ended up having much moreimpacts on coastal communities,
particularly in New York.
And so what we're trying to do with oursharks project is to send out this fleet
of tagged sharks to be sampling the water,the water temperature from the surface to
the bottom in this area leading up tostorm season.

(32:26):
Like you said,
It's tough.
The ocean is understable compared to land.
And part of that is because it's hard tomeasure what's happening at depth.
We can get a great sense of ocean surfacetemperature with satellite products.
And it's actually crazy and really coolhow elegant and just how in -depth some of

(32:50):
these satellite projects and work, what wecan see from space.
But understanding what's happening belowthe surface.
it's still, it's still elusive.
so the idea is, sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, so one thing thatI came across as well is that, a lot of

(33:10):
the, the data collecting mechanisms ortechnology right now, it's that you really
can't go deeper into the water column andthat a lot of it's on the surface, even if
it's like buoys and things.
So you have satellites, then you havebuoys and other.
measurement devices, I just did see astartup that has kind of like a buoy or

(33:33):
floating device that is able to sinkitself up and down.
And so they're going to look at the watertable, I think through that mechanism.
But this is where the sharks really shine,right?
Is that it's the ability, the fact thatthey're moving through the entire water
column, that they're not only on thesurface, they're not only on the bottom,

(33:54):
but they're moving throughout it.
and you're able to get this data thatother technologies can't provide.
Is that right?
That's correct.
And so it's really about increasing thequantity of this water column data that we
have.
So I think it was in 2014, the federalgovernment partnered up with different

(34:16):
research and universities up and down thecoast to create, quote unquote, the wider
fleet.
And so this was taking those.
those yellow submarine autonomoussamplers, the gliders, with the dedicated
effort of collecting more coastaltemperature information to improve

(34:36):
hurricane predictions in the area.
And that's been massively successful.
It's still active, and they're collectinga really, really valuable trove of
information.
But the ocean is large, it's changing, andthere's still a need for more.
And so the idea is that with these smallertags, you know, they're smaller, they're

(34:58):
cheaper gliders, they move more slowly andthey're limited by how far out and how
long out they can go.
So the idea is that in addition to theseexisting resources, animals by, you know,
depending on the species that you want tolook at, many of the species that we're
looking at in our area of Delaware do thisregular diving pattern and they range up

(35:21):
and down the coast.
but to the continental shelf and back.
And the tags are a fraction of the cost.
So the idea is we can really beef up thedata we have and then improve coastal
resilience by making better models.
To my understanding, in terms of hurricaneforecasting, the technology has gotten way

(35:45):
more accurate with predicting timing ofstorms, but predicting storm intensity is
still...
I'm still still the target on hand.
That's the that that's the stinker.
And it's important because when you'retalking about, you know, whether or not to
evacuate people or, you know, how toprepare for damage or economic costs or

(36:07):
loss of life after that, it's it's onethat we want to get right.
And there's a really cool opportunity withthese tags and these animals to help that.
Interesting.
I didn't realize that you you.
guys were focusing on the intensity aswell.
Cause I interviewed, ChristopherHeckscher, who is also in Delaware, but he

(36:31):
works with the Viri, which is a bird, aspecies of thrush.
And, his data set essentially shows thatthe Viri is a better indicator of it's, it
might be the Gulf and Atlantic.
I should really know this.
It's terrible that I don't remember this.
but definitely the Gulf Coast hurricaneseason intensity level.

(36:54):
And because that bird actually has tomigrate from Delaware to Brazil and then
Brazil back.
So it goes twice across the Gulf and ithas some indicator that it's picking up on
where it's able to predict the intensity.
So, and he has a really unique data set asan ornithologist.
He has like, I think it's 20 or 25 yearson the Viri.

(37:18):
and so it's, I think it's, it's a smallnumber of birds, but it's a very long data
set that you wouldn't normally have.
but the, you know, they change all sortsof their behavior and their breeding.
And, I think they, they might change theirfeather molting pattern at some point,
which was interesting because I cameacross that even in indigenous studies in

(37:41):
Africa, you know, they'll tell you, Hey,if you see that bird, but with these types
of feathers this year,
that means there's going to be a droughtor we're expecting flooding and things
like that.
And they kind of weave the web looking atall the different indicators from the
animals.
But I didn't realize that your work wasalso on intensity of hurricane season.

(38:02):
Not only is there a storm coming, but howintense will it be?
That's fascinating.
So yeah, everyone, I guess everyone inDelaware is doing all the cool stuff these
days.
I just want to know where the storms areand how strong they'll be.
Yeah, exactly.
So tell us about that.
Because, you know, Chris has quite achallenge on his hands because the very is

(38:24):
this, this tiny bird.
And I think with birds, you can only havelike, your tracking device can only be
like 3 % of body weight.
So obviously, it sounds like you all havea much easier time with sharks, probably
with sensors.
And so just tell us about like,
what goes wrong in these situations or howdoes it all go down?

(38:49):
Absolutely.
So, no, we definitely have a little moreflexibility with the tag load on our
animals.
But gosh, that's a great question.
I mean, so thinking about earlier, Italked about how a lot of the animal oops,
the marine animal oops work was focusingon.

(39:11):
They had a lot of great success withelephant seals.
And since then, there's been repeated,like fantastic work done with other air
breathing marine animals.
So whales, turtles, there's been somereally cool seabird work.
But there hasn't been, we're starting tosee, we're starting to see focus shift and

(39:34):
effort shifts to those animals that breedwater, like our sharks.
And the reason for this delay is simple onthe surface, but I was not sautting
through testing these tags in chapters twoand three.
It's proven to be quite the headache.

(39:54):
Animals that breathe water don't need tocome to the surface.
And if you have a tag that transmits databy satellite, you need that tag to be
exposed to the surface.
So with these studies on seals and whales,you're able to program your tag to turn on
and off and to send data based on the airrequirements of that animal.

(40:22):
And that can be figuring out that dutycycle, for lack of a better word, has
really big implications for how the tagoperates, mainly battery life.
and the ability to collect data and howlong it can stay out there.
So if you have an animal that doesn't needto come to the surface on a very regular

(40:43):
schedule, the trick is then figuring out,well, what can we predict about its
behavior based on what we know about themand how can we mechanically program the
tag so that it's turning on and off at theright time or it's not, you know, the way
that these satellite tags work is thatwhen it's collecting its data below the
surface,

(41:03):
when your tagged animal reaches thesurface and the antenna is above the
water, the tag is screaming into the void.
I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I have data.
And hopefully you have your satellitesystem passing overhead at that time.
And it hears that scream and then says, mygosh, I know where you are.
I've got the data.
I can send that to scientists andmanagers.

(41:25):
And so that white paper that I shared withyou was a first step effort at looking at
how
we can estimate different shark species tobehave and compare who is coming to the
surface more frequently than otherspecies.
How long can we estimate that they'respending at the surface?

(41:49):
And sort of looking at, well, how wouldthey behave like a regularly programmed
surface and dive?
And just to get a sense of how that willimpact how much data we can.
not only collect, but how much data we cansend and send out in a timely manner.
Because part of the motivation with thisproject is having these animals, these

(42:12):
sharks, collect that information and beingable to send it close to real time within
a matter of hours, days, so that it can beas useful to the modeling process as
possible.
Gotcha.
And so, okay, so just to clarify, so thiswhite paper is actually looking at
what different species of sharks willactually be the most useful to use based

(42:39):
on their, if they're surfacing enoughtimes on a regular basis or the way
they're diving, is that correct?
That is correct.
because when we think about, sharksglobally, you know, there's over 500
species.
and in the mid Atlantic by alone, we haveover 19 species.
and there's,
I think this is one of the exciting ideasabout using sharks as platforms.

(43:04):
Like the possibilities are wild.
Just thinking about how different animalsbehave, what type of oceanographic data
might they be better suited for, who mightbe a better candidate, who might not be a
better candidate.
And so with that sort of initial analysisfocusing on the mid -Atlantic, we saw

(43:27):
that...
more pelagic migratory species like ourshort fin Naco sharks or blue sharks,
would be more successful, in transmittedor estimated to be more successful in
transmitting that data.
interesting.
Okay.
And what are the, there's like sometechnical terms, like what, what do you

(43:50):
call it?
Like what you just said, like pelagic orsomething like that.
And then there's another one, maybe withan in or,
Pelagic, so those are basically describingyour animals that hang out far from the
coast and are offshore.
So they are, we've got inshore animals orlike in -shelf animals.

(44:13):
And we've got the continental shelf.
And those are your guys that are huggingit close to shore.
They tend to follow the coastline.
An example of that would be maybe likejuvenile white sharks.
They don't, they're small.
They're not going far from land, far fromstructure, more food resources.

(44:37):
And then your more highly migratoryspecies or your animals that travel far
and wide would be those that are movinginto more oceanic environments.
They're away from the continental shelf,they're away from the coast.
We have some, we've access to somesatellite tag data for blue sharks and

(44:58):
naco sharks in the Pacific and theAtlantic, and they are just looking at to
the middle of the ocean.
And if you're thinking about, okay, I'm ascientist, I have this cool idea for using
sharks to collect data, choosing whatanimal and what their behaviors might be
like, are they gonna be the best candidatefor answering your question?

(45:23):
If I want to study what's going on in theAtlantic gyre, does it make sense to put
it on like, an Atlantic tiger shark, whichtend to hang out more around like the Gulf
and coasts of Florida and near shoreenvironments.
And then, yeah, just thinking about who's,who's the best for the job.
Yeah, definitely.

(45:44):
And maybe also to like not only one beingthe best or even one species, you know, I
mean, is there.
Are there any other animals you're curiousin your area that you'd be like, this
would be an interesting one to track aswell for kind of what you're looking at?

(46:06):
man, absolutely.
And I think especially as we're startingto see shifts in animal ranges with ocean
warming increasing and you're starting tosee characters in places that we haven't
really seen them before.
or like understudied species, you know,there was a report of, I think a manta ray

(46:30):
off the coast of Maryland a few years ago.
And it's sort of like, what brings youhere?
Are you usually here?
Like what type of changes and, you know,environmental conditions or any prey
fields?
I think that, and what really gets meexcited about this project is when you've,

(46:54):
When we're tagging these species andfocusing on these species for data
collection for human purposes, we're alsogetting a ton of information on the
animals movements in biology.
And really, it's like this very excitingsort of positive feedback loop where the
more bushographic variables we'recollecting for our purposes, at the same

(47:17):
time, we're getting this really valuableinformation on the animals themselves.
And that can be super informative forconservation and management, understanding
sort of like how habitat shifts or rangesmight shift with changes in the ocean.
But yeah, I think it'd be cool.
Managers would be cool.
This initial analysis that I was doing hadaccess to a few whale shark tags.

(47:41):
And it was great because for all of therankings we were doing, whale sharks were
knocking it out of the park.
They dive really deep.
They bask at the surface.
So I was joking with my boss that weshould go put some tags on whale sharks.
I think there was also, there was one offthe coast of Delaware again a few years
ago.
So they might be here.

(48:02):
Probably not the most economical decision,but it was cool to see.
Interesting.
Yeah, I remember reading in the paper,like whale sharks seem to be a really
great candidate for some of these things.
Yeah, it's fascinating with, I just cameacross actually, project, Icarus.

(48:23):
Have you heard of Icarus?
It's vaguely familiar.
Can you tell me more about it?
Well, I think one thing is like, there'slike an old Icarus, which is more of like,
it might've been a NASA thing like 30years ago, but this one is actually a guy
who's putting collars on tons of differentspecies.
And he actually launched, he was able towork with NASA to get a,

(48:46):
thing on the space station for picking upall these different colors.
So one of his first ones was, I think hewanted to do a different animal, but the,
the local people in this village in Italywere like, now, if you want to learn about
like the volcanoes and the earthquakesaround here, you want to like focus on the
goats, like the goats know what's going tohappen.

(49:07):
And so he put all these colors on thegoats and, you know, developed a way where
it wasn't, like where the data wouldn't beskewed of like,
Cause you can imagine if somethingstarting to happen and they all start
running at one time and they're in agroup, well, it could, it could have been
a dog.
It could have been, you know, somethingsimple in the environment, whereas he
figured out a way to make sure they couldtrack it.

(49:30):
you know, like acceleration speed, as wellas they have these moments where they're,
they're a lot of individuals in verydifferent parts of the land, like half a
mile or a mile away.
And then they're actually picking up thetrimmers.
before volcanic activity like six to eighthours in advance.
But now he's got trackers on like rhinosand you know, all sorts of different

(49:54):
animals across the world.
But the actually what ended well, it's allinteresting to be honest.
But one of the curiosities that I hadabout it was that and this will tie in
will come full circle here in a second.
Don't worry.
Is that
There was instances, for example, wherethey had like a bird, it might've been in

(50:17):
Ibis or some other large bird.
And they'd been tracking this bird for avery long time.
And the bird was actually shot insomewhere in, in Africa or maybe in
Pakistan or somewhere.
And essentially these people ended upsending a letter saying, Hey, sorry, we
shot your bird.
We're very hungry and we shot your bird.

(50:41):
And he was discussing how this isextraordinary detail to something that
they could have never imagined, right?
It gives such a deeper context of why aspecies might go through some challenge.
and what happened though is actually thatI think locally in that area, there was a
big campaign to have, to make sure peopledon't shoot those birds.

(51:03):
And so the potential of some of this, andone thing that I think about, you're
talking about earlier with.
just sharks in general, right?
There's certain animals that have reallybad branding, right?
Which is, which we've done to them, youknow, over time.
And so for, you know, sharks, bats, allthese different animals that are actually

(51:24):
extraordinarily important to ecosystems.
and you know, everyone's important.
That's the big thing we have to wrap ourhead around and get over, you know,
thinking it's, well, this one's the mostimportant or that it's, it doesn't work
like that.
It's not.
That's not interconnectedness, you know,but I mean, you, you, you, I mean, I don't
know if you would agree, but probably thebest publicity the shark has gotten

(51:46):
recently is that Orca attack, right?
I mean, there might be some shark sympathycoming out here.
So leveraging that, but also too, I couldsee, I mean, as someone who, you know, who
was an entrepreneur and brand expert, Icould totally see an opportunity at some
point to really.
do a campaign where it's like, Hey, thisshark is actually telling you to vacate

(52:10):
your house before this hurricane hits.
You know what I mean?
And like giving credit to the shark.
And there's some really interesting thingsthat could be done that then start to
develop a positive feedback loop for theanimal and for conservation, right?
Then people go, Hey, wait a second.
Actually.
Yeah.
The shark saved our asses this last one.
And you know what I mean?

(52:30):
And so.
Therefore it can really change perceptionand I'm curious to see how that can change
with these long -term tracking adventuresin combination with social media and all
these different Things about that.
What did you think about that Orca?
That moment that was that was wild I wasactually I was At my folks house for

(52:57):
breakfast and my dad was like, my gosh,look, have you seen this?
Have you seen this shark video?
I was like, was it a great white shark?
Because there's started to be more likeattention on those videos.
I feel like over like the past year or so,and just like to have, I mean, it's so
strategic.
Like they just, they hone in on the liverand it's just like, bam.

(53:19):
And you do feel sympathy for, I feelsympathy for the shark.
And then I'm like, my gosh, don't messaround with them.
The acceleration by that orca was insane.
Just watching it accelerate, I was like,my God.
Yeah.
And I think it shows also just how smartthese animals are and just how much is

(53:50):
going underneath the surface.
I feel like there's been, okay, we'veknown...
the development in whales, the socialstructures, the communication sort of
clades with sperm whales and their familyunits.
And then just like these, thesecoordinated efforts with orcas hunting in
the wild.
I mean, it blows my mind every time, justlike how much we don't know about what's

(54:14):
going on in their minds and how they'reprocessing and organizing.
I mean, it was like the orchestratedattacks.
or interactions with boats in theMediterranean.
Like that was a learned behavior, I thinkwas what they were saying from like one
female to her pod.

(54:34):
But yeah, I know with the with the sharktagging project, I think it's we've seen
with sort of like public publicization ofthe satellite tracks and you know, they're
naming the sharks and you can see where.
where Scott is, Scott the Great Whitegoing on his journey.

(54:56):
I think OCEARCH was doing a lot of that.
And yeah, I think putting on another layerof connection, another sort of focus,
focal point to relate to.
Here comes the hurricane squad of sharksfor the summer.
The hurricane squad.
I tell little cousins that we're givingthe sharks jobs.

(55:18):
They're going to go predict the weatherthis summer.
And I think it's a really excitingopportunity.
And like you said, just another angle toshed light on these important parts of our
ecosystem.
Right.
And so how long do you think, or I guessreally quick, just for the audience to

(55:41):
understand.
So when, let's say I'm a meteorologist andI'm going into these data portals where I
can pull all sorts of different types ofdata around the world.
They're not necessarily looking at like,this is Scott the shark that I'm going to

(56:03):
now input into my meteorologicalalgorithm, right?
They're just looking at a simple datapoint.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
So more specifically,
The way that the tags will collect data isthat as the shark is servicing and diving,
the tag is detecting changes in depththrough the changes in water pressure.

(56:28):
And when the tag senses that it's at thebottom of a dive, it's like, okay, like
we're not, depth isn't changing anymore.
It's go time.
That animal is going to come to thesurface and the tag is actually recording
the temperature data for that ascent, orwe call it an upcast.
And so what,
will actually be sent when assuming afterit records that upcast, the shark behaves

(56:52):
just how we want it to and pops up at thesurface.
Then the satellite is overhead at theright time.
Then that strand of water columntemperature is what gets sent over to the
data sets being used by NOAA andintegrated for these different

(57:13):
meteorological weather service
groups becomes a part of the pool calledthe Google telecommunication system.
And then that gets sent to the right datasets and the right people.
Okay, very cool.
And so.
Tell me really quickly, I mean, is this,this is different than animal telemetry or

(57:37):
is this animal telemetry?
Does this fall under that category or thatunderstanding?
That's a great question.
I would say that this is a subset ofanimal telemetry.
It's a, it's a, a branching out sort ofinto a new application, a new use.
You know, animals, animal telemetry isthis broader term of in my.

(57:57):
In my brain, I think of animal telemetryas we're using devices and technology with
animals to figure out what they're doingin the environment, what's going on
internally, physiology, how are theymoving.
And so this is still a component of thatbecause we're putting these tags, these

(58:18):
instruments on these animals.
But it's just a different type of sensor.
It's a...
higher resolution temperature sensor.
And it just has a human, a humanapplication.
So instead of studying the animals forthat sort of foundational knowledge of

(58:39):
like, well, where are they migrating inthe summer?
We're able to collect some data as a partof their movement and then give it a new,
give it a new use.
Okay, gotcha.
And so even like acoustic tracking wouldbe a subset under animal.
telemetry in general.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.

(58:59):
Okay.
Gotcha.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Because I really know nothing about any ofthis.
But it's fascinating to see all thedifferent ways.
And so I mean, are you guys kind ofobsessed as well with like, the latest
sensors?
I mean, is there someone at the universitywho's like, whole shtick is, like, create
better sensors for these things?

(59:21):
Or how does that work?
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
And I think,
It's there are definitely folks at UD whoare on top of, you know, like what are the
newest developments?
What are the newest applications?
We have a pretty decently sized marinerobotics, sort of like collaboration of

(59:41):
different labs.
And it's always so cool.
I feel like people tend to get sort ofblinders on for their specific project and
their specific use.
And then, you know,
you have a person down the hall who'slike, hey, like we have this cool, like
new, we're doing this sonari thing forthis particular thing.

(01:00:01):
And you're like, wait, tell me more.
And how can we could use that to solvesome of our problems.
So there's sort of this like, in myexperience, excitement about sort of like
what the new technology is as it's rollingout.
And then as you know,
what I love about UD is it's verycollaborative across researchers here.

(01:00:22):
So there's a lot of like, like we couldwork together and put in a grant to solve
this problem.
And then it sort of like, it sort ofblooms with these new developments and
exciting ways we can go learn more stuff.
Right, for sure.
Yeah.
Lateral thinking is oftentimes way moreimportant than we think, you know, and

(01:00:44):
just realizing someone else is studyingsomething that
If you just twist it a little bit, it canbe completely applied to what you're
studying and then it totally changeseverything.
super cool.
So how long do you think, I mean, how, howfar away are we from seeing like some
concrete data on, I mean, so would thenext phase be the correlations between the

(01:01:12):
water column readings and.
the hurricane seasons that are thehurricane intensities of the coming years
of what's measured over time.
And then is that data to be kind ofcompiled into a new research set?
Is that generally what it looks like?
Yeah, I would think that, you know, like,mechanically, this summer, we're going to

(01:01:36):
have some tags arrived on campus and we'regoing to be putting them out on animals.
And this will be sort of the first trialrun of seeing them.
in the wild and seeing what data theycollect and how the sharks are actually
surfacing and transmitting.
And then I think that in the next fiveyears, we'll probably be able to sort of

(01:02:04):
refine what those algorithms are forhabitat works.
And we'll know more about how they behaveon the species that we're working with.
And...
Hopefully, in the next five, 10 years, wesee this expansion, this greater, this
increase in the data that goes into thesehurricane models.
And after that point, it'll be exciting tosee how are we improving in our calls and

(01:02:31):
in our predictions.
Because we're definitely still seeing morestorms, and we're definitely seeing a
march in stronger storms.
So I think.
Uber or timing it right.
Very cool.
Okay.
And then I have a different question.
We'll kind of wind our way down here and Ishould ask this in the beginning, but so

(01:02:56):
let's say for example, you launched thesharks or you've you've done this other
research.
Tell us a little bit about I mean, what isyour your title that you I mean, what is
how does that work in the university?
Yep, I'm a
fourth year PhD candidate working with theCarlisle and Oliver Labs.
So I'm a graduate research assistant.

(01:03:19):
My job is to do this research and run thetests, get a degree out of it.
That's the goal.
But it's a fun mix between doing the hands-on testing, you know, like...

(01:03:40):
Later today, I'm going to go into ourrobotics shop and try to 3D print a dorsal
fin for a blue shark or end up cutting onefrom wood, whichever works better, but so
that we can do some flow tests with thetag that we have.
So making sure that we have our tag,attach it to our fake fin, put it in a

(01:04:02):
water flume, and see if it's floatingupright and in the right direction.
So there's some hands -on things, somecoding.
a good mix between computer time and thefun stuff.
Gotcha.
But every day you're busy, essentially?
Every day it's something new.
That's exciting.
Absolutely.
That's fun.

(01:04:23):
It's a time.
I enjoy it.
I enjoy it a lot.
Yeah, I bet.
I bet.
Okay.
And what, all right, besides sharks,favorite animal?
Favorite animal.
This is boring, but in general, I am a dogperson.
But if I had to, to redeem myself withthat very basic answer, I think my

(01:04:47):
favorite shark, if I can, if I can readyour question.
You can do shark.
Thank you.
Has to be the Greenland shark.
They are so cool.
They are so metal in my mind because therewas a study that came out a few years ago
that was like,
trying to age them and granted they hadlike 100 to 200 year like plus or minuses

(01:05:10):
on both side, but they were like in themiddle, like they're definitely like
probably 200 years, maybe up to 400 yearsold.
They like their teeth are ground downbecause they eat smaller sharks and they
end up going blind in like the deep seafrom like, this is a little gnarly but
parasites on their eyes.

(01:05:31):
So you basically have this like,
ancient, like, embattled blind, like,animal just like cruising around.
I think they're they're really cool.
Very cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what about any animal that you want tolike travel to see at some point somewhere
in the world?
Like some people like to go to like BajaMexico to see different migrations of

(01:05:57):
whales or just different animals?
Is there any?
like bucket list places you're wanting togo?
Absolutely.
I would love to see the basking sharks.
Where are they at?
I believe they're more northern Atlantic.

(01:06:17):
I think we've also seen some in the WestAtlantic.
But I think there's been a lot of coolwork done on basking sharks out of
Ireland.
I'm probably limiting.
I think they're more distributed thanthat.
Okay.
What about whale sharks in thePhilippines?
They're phenomenal.
I mean, that would be incredible.

(01:06:37):
I missed that.
I should have done that when I was in thePhilippines, but I didn't have time.
If you want to go back and we can put atag on them, they'll do great work.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And then, okay, really quick on that.
Are sharks easier?
So for people listening, you know, it'snot as simple as, you know,

(01:06:59):
Okay, we have a tag and now we're going togo put it out on whatever we want.
Right.
If it's an endangered sea turtle, there'sall sorts of protocols to go through.
And there's, I mean, I have no idea whatthey are, but this is my understanding.
So with sharks, is it slightly easier totag them than other species?

(01:07:19):
Generally, yes.
at least in the United States.
So we have the marine mammal protectionact, which was passed in the seventies to
put laws on, you know,
not disturbing or harming these growingpopulations.
So compared to trying to tag a dolphin orwork with dolphins, there are more
flexible requirements around handlingsharks.

(01:07:44):
That being said, like for protectedspecies.
So like we work like Delaware, we're inthe Delaware Bay.
Delaware Bay is home to sand bar and sandtiger sharks.
And,
They both have like federal protections onthem.
So when we're working with those, likethere's definitely a protocol to be done.
The priority is to do no harm.

(01:08:07):
You know, like we're here because we'rehere because we like the animals at some
point, you know, like this is a field ofpassion projects.
But as far as putting the tags out, it canbe, I've never tagged marine animals, but
when I was doing my masters,
I might mention we're doing acoustictelemetry on black sea bass.

(01:08:28):
And a black sea bass can fit in a shoebox.
It does not have teeth.
So comparatively, leaning over the side ofa boat in like two, three foot seas,
you're leaning over the shark, you'rerocking up and down, you're having a time,
the shark's having a time, can be a littlemore challenging to navigate.

(01:08:52):
For sure, I bet.
And so will you be a part of the nexttagging at some point or is your, is that
a role that goes to someone else?
Nope.
That will be me.
and I'm really excited and, trying to planall of that out.

(01:09:12):
make the sharks and blue sharks can be alittle bendy.
So thinking about, just trying to do this,it's unexcited.
It'll be fun.
Yeah.
Sounds super exciting.
Well, we'll have to do another show insome years, I guess, when we finally start
to see some of the data or something.

(01:09:33):
That would be really cool to see whathappens.
And I'm going to continue on looking forother animals, other researchers looking
at other animals.
But now we have the Viri and we have somesharks who are out there.
measuring hurricane intensity.
So it's super, super interesting, superexciting to see.

(01:09:56):
And I just want to thank you so much forbeing on here.
I know it's probably not the usual for alot of researchers.
So I do appreciate the courage and thewillingness to share.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been a wonderful time being able totalk about this stuff.
And, you know,

(01:10:16):
Hopefully the next few years we'll havesome exciting updates and we'll have some
some sharks doing very important work.
Yep.
In the meantime, everyone just rememberthat sharks, not every shark is Jaws or
we're not living in the movie Deep BlueSea.
So sharks have their purpose, they're partof the family and just start.

(01:10:38):
We'll all start cultivating a little bitmore shark sympathy.
Love to see it.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.