10. Priceless Branding: Neuroscience, Emotion & AI with Jim Cobb

Brand strategist Jim Cobb, founder of The Bloodhound Group and a creative force behind MasterCard’s legendary “Priceless” campaign, joins host Lydia Kumar to unpack how neuroscience, emotion, and generative AI can support branding. Drawing on four decades of advertising experience, Jim explains why 90 percent of purchase decisions start in the unconscious mind, how skin-response testing saved the priceless concept, and where today’s AI tools are already streamlining everything from HR talent matching to real-time sports coaching. 

Key Takeaways

• Emotion first, logic later. Neuroscience shows people buy on feeling and justify with facts, creative that sparks relevance wins.

• Data still rules. Clean, well-labeled datasets are the difference between powerful AI insights and garbage output.

• Scale thoughtfully. Use AI to serve more clients without sacrificing quality or brand trust.

Resources & Links

• Jim Cobb on LinkedIn → LinkedIn

• The Bloodhound Group → Bloodhound Group

• MasterCard “Priceless” case study → The Brand Hopper

• Kinwise Pilot Program → https://kinwise.org/pilot (learn how to build a human-centered AI strategy)

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to Kin Wise Conversations, where we explore what it means to integrate AI into our work and lives with care, clarity, and creativity.
Each episode we talk with everyday leaders navigating these powerful tools, balancing innovation with intention and technology with humanity.
I'm your host, Lydia Kumar. 4 00:00:24,14.318767639 --> 00:00:32,557.652100972 Today I'm honored to be joined by Jim Cobb, founder of the brand strategy firm, The Bloodhound Group, and a veteran of the advertising industry. 5 00:00:32,587.652100972 --> 00:00:38,557.652100972 With decades of experience, Jim has seen firsthand how technology has reshaped marketing from the.com 6 00:00:38,557.652100972 --> 00:00:39,937.652100972 era to the rise of ai. 7 00:00:40,222.652100972 --> 00:00:54,982.652100972 We'll explore his fascinating work in the science of emotion, including his role in the iconic MasterCard, priceless campaign, and dive into how he's now using AI driven analytics to build stronger brands, enhance customer experience, and scale his business thoughtfully. 8 00:00:56,492.652100972 --> 00:00:57,932.652100972 Let's dive into our conversation. 9 00:00:59,36.421785013 --> 00:01:01,466.421785013 I'm so excited to have you on the show today, Jim. 10 00:01:01,466.421785013 --> 00:01:09,306.421785013 I've known you for a long time, but we had such an interesting conversation a few weeks ago, and I thought I have to have him on the show and hear more about your insights. 11 00:01:09,616.421785013 --> 00:01:15,71.421785013 Jim has been working in marketing and owns his own business, and has been in this industry for a long time. 12 00:01:15,71.421785013 --> 00:01:21,481.421785013 So I'm really excited for you to introduce yourself, to tell your story how you ended up in this line of work. 13 00:01:22,111.421785013 --> 00:01:24,271.421785013 I'm curious about what first led you to. 14 00:01:24,556.421785013 --> 00:01:27,886.421785013 Brand strategy into the launch of the Bloodhound group. 15 00:01:27,947.1859161 --> 00:01:34,460.519249433 and anything else that might be helpful for listeners to know about who you are and how you approach work? Well, thanks for having me on the show. 16 00:01:34,460.519249433 --> 00:01:36,930.519249433 Number one, I started in the advertising industry. 17 00:01:37,30.519249433 --> 00:01:48,180.51924943 In the eighties and during that time, we basically, did advertising, marketing, communications for, both small firms, but also some large global organizations. 18 00:01:48,750.51924943 --> 00:02:04,980.51924943 And what we began to understand was, this was not about advertising and creativity, but it was really more about how do you build a brand and brand being, what is the intangible values that a company, Can basically label and in into their identity. 19 00:02:05,430.51924943 --> 00:02:23,810.51924943 And so we began to understand the financial implications of that and conduct a lot of test markets, which was a little unusual for advertising agencies at the time, so that we could understand how to build brand awareness and value, that allow our clients to actually, create a premium position and. 20 00:02:24,5.51924943 --> 00:02:27,665.51924943 Support their premium prices through an enhanced image. 21 00:02:27,665.51924943 --> 00:02:47,835.51924943 So we did that for 35 years and, in 2017, I decided to close the agency that I had, grown up in and, really was very attached to, but the economics of the agency business had got to a place where it was very difficult to offer the, full service. 22 00:02:48,157.45690521 --> 00:02:51,397.45690521 A full slate of services and achieve profitability. 23 00:02:51,397.45690521 --> 00:02:56,417.45690521 So the most unique part of the organization was the brand consulting work. 24 00:02:56,797.78209214 --> 00:03:12,181.83233005 And so we decided to create a new company called the Bloodhound Group that just focused on brand research and brand development work, which included new product ideation and helping clients improve their, market offerings. 25 00:03:13,636.83233005 --> 00:03:21,616.83233005 When you think about brand and that draw to like, just, I'm gonna take us way back to the very beginning of your story. 26 00:03:21,766.83233005 --> 00:03:33,266.83233005 What drew you to marketing and into branding at the beginning? Like why that out of all the things you could have done professionally? Well, when I was in graduate school, I guess it goes back maybe to my father. 27 00:03:33,326.83233005 --> 00:03:43,686.83233005 'cause my father was a really good salesperson and when I went to graduate school, I always felt like advertising represented the purest form of salesmanship. 28 00:03:44,136.83233005 --> 00:03:55,266.83233005 Because if you could in 30 seconds convey a compelling message and a creative way, then it would allow you basically to have the pinnacle position of salesmanship. 29 00:03:55,611.83233005 --> 00:03:56,31.83233005 All right. 30 00:03:56,391.83233005 --> 00:04:09,216.83233005 And so I felt like that was kind of, maybe that was a little DNA, you know, coming in where It seemed to be the right thing to do for my career standpoint, but it was also, allowed you to be creative and it was kind of glamorous. 31 00:04:09,406.83233005 --> 00:04:14,746.83233005 you could be, related to some big idea that everybody knew about. 32 00:04:14,806.83233005 --> 00:04:20,733.49899671 And so it was not something that a lot of my graduate school mates were interested in. 33 00:04:20,733.49899671 --> 00:04:25,913.49899671 But, I pursued it and I ended up landing, in, an advertising agency in Raleigh. 34 00:04:26,573.49899671 --> 00:04:40,96.83233005 I think you have done so much work over your professional career, it's really impressive the companies that you've worked for and the way that you have been able to launch, your own endeavors that have been very successful. 35 00:04:40,156.83233005 --> 00:04:46,596.83233005 And so it's interesting to hear about how that's been a part of your identity and your father and how you wanted to share this. 36 00:04:47,616.83233005 --> 00:04:48,36.83233005 Story. 37 00:04:48,36.83233005 --> 00:04:51,606.83233005 I think it's really compelling, the way you said advertising is the pinnacle of salesmanship. 38 00:04:51,606.83233005 --> 00:04:54,486.83233005 It's like being able to craft that within 30 seconds. 39 00:04:54,536.83233005 --> 00:05:01,406.83233005 you talk a little bit on your website about emotion, like great brands being able to trigger emotion that moves people. 40 00:05:01,556.83233005 --> 00:05:12,726.83233005 How does that connect with this idea of advertising being this pinnacle of salesmanship, or how does that relate? Well, you know, most, commercials, when you see them, you engage with them, you like them. 41 00:05:13,146.83233005 --> 00:05:20,246.83233005 and even if you're not gonna buy the product, a big part of the messaging has to do with likability and, entertainment. 42 00:05:20,726.83233005 --> 00:05:20,816.83233005 Mm-hmm. 43 00:05:21,146.83233005 --> 00:05:22,606.83233005 And, or relevance. 44 00:05:22,750.16566338 --> 00:05:28,40.16566338 So, for many, many years we had great creative guys that did work. 45 00:05:28,40.16566338 --> 00:05:30,270.16566338 That was, just phenomenal. 46 00:05:30,300.16566338 --> 00:05:34,423.49899671 and when we did research on it in terms of, you know, ad testing and. 47 00:05:34,918.49899671 --> 00:05:38,608.49899671 Or we did work that would put it into marketplace and see how it moved. 48 00:05:38,608.49899671 --> 00:05:39,118.49899671 Product. 49 00:05:39,478.49899671 --> 00:05:43,828.49899671 Some of the, the more creative work always delivered the best results. 50 00:05:43,985.16566338 --> 00:05:55,768.49899671 And around 19 98, 19 99, 1 of our researchers who was a PhD started, was reading and communicating with the guys at Harvard who basically. 51 00:05:56,398.49899671 --> 00:06:07,281.83233005 Began to bring forth the idea that 90% of the decisions we make are driven by, unconscious motives where we basically move or move to purchase. 52 00:06:07,378.49899671 --> 00:06:09,808.49899671 We make the purchase based on a feeling. 53 00:06:10,18.49899671 --> 00:06:23,123.49899671 And then we rationalize while we made the purchase, which was very different from the model of most advertising agencies but what we learned was you make the people buy and then they do the logical part of the equation. 54 00:06:23,513.49899671 --> 00:06:29,753.49899671 And so then it began to make sense why some guys who are very creative, they understood that intuitively. 55 00:06:29,903.49899671 --> 00:06:37,883.49899671 It wasn't like they were trying to match it from a science standpoint, and now we began to understand how that actually worked. 56 00:06:38,363.49899671 --> 00:06:43,653.49899671 So he developed the, business partner researcher, whose name was Bruce Hall. 57 00:06:43,653.49899671 --> 00:06:47,983.49899671 Bruce developed a working model on how to measure emotions. 58 00:06:48,70.16566338 --> 00:06:49,360.16566338 for our advertising. 59 00:06:49,700.16566338 --> 00:06:53,430.16566338 We would hook people up to electrodes and show 'em the commercials. 60 00:06:54,145.16566338 --> 00:06:59,485.16566338 And we could see exactly what they liked about the commercials based on how they responded emotionally. 61 00:06:59,518.49899671 --> 00:07:14,381.83233005 And that became kind of a litmus dust for, sorting good advertising from bad advertising because if they had a real positive response that advertising made more sense to try to move it forward, and to introduce it into the marketplace. 62 00:07:14,381.83233005 --> 00:07:18,491.83233005 And probably the most famous campaign that we worked on. 63 00:07:18,508.49899671 --> 00:07:27,151.83233005 Was, the campaign for MasterCard, which was the priceless campaign, which did not perform well in traditional ad testing. 64 00:07:27,285.16566338 --> 00:07:33,975.16566338 And so we were, partnering with, McCann Erickson out of, New York who had created the campaign. 65 00:07:34,88.49899671 --> 00:07:37,148.49899671 they asked us to conduct the emotional engagement research. 66 00:07:37,208.49899671 --> 00:07:46,728.49899671 And what we found was the story completion component of the priceless campaign of a dad taking his son to the baseball game for the first time. 67 00:07:47,343.49899671 --> 00:07:49,593.49899671 of how you interact with dogs. 68 00:07:50,103.49899671 --> 00:07:53,363.49899671 Those, those television commercial scored especially high. 69 00:07:53,993.49899671 --> 00:08:03,973.49899671 And so, McCann took that to MasterCard and they said, you know, we really ought to continue down this path because MasterCard, wanted to make sure that they were spending their money. 70 00:08:04,443.49899671 --> 00:08:12,253.49899671 when the ad test came back, traditional ad test, which was more of a left brain kind of, you know, what do you think, kind of testing methodology. 71 00:08:12,450.16566338 --> 00:08:20,890.16566338 When that came back and it did show very good results, we ended up, you know, be kind of coming the tiebreaker with the research we conducted. 72 00:08:21,220.16566338 --> 00:08:27,370.16566338 And so they decided to go forward with the campaign, which I guess they've probably done several thousand commercials by now. 73 00:08:27,785.16566338 --> 00:08:36,905.16566338 I watched one of those commercials in my, I'm in an MBA program right now, and in my marketing class we watched one of the priceless commercials as an example of really strong advertising. 74 00:08:36,905.16566338 --> 00:08:40,505.16566338 So That's so cool that you, you played a part in that. 75 00:08:40,878.49899671 --> 00:08:41,58.49899671 Yeah. 76 00:08:41,58.49899671 --> 00:08:47,588.49899671 So the interesting part about advertising and brand development is that typically brands. 77 00:08:47,871.78911295 --> 00:08:50,241.78911295 Creates some additional meaning to your life. 78 00:08:50,241.78911295 --> 00:09:01,581.78911295 So you're, you are, there may be something in your life that's missing who you are today, plus the brand equals some ideal, image or some ideal, experience that you're constantly pursuing. 79 00:09:02,11.78911295 --> 00:09:05,311.78911295 good advertising gives you a little bit of that information. 80 00:09:05,441.78911295 --> 00:09:07,91.78911295 It allows you to complete the story. 81 00:09:07,171.78911295 --> 00:09:13,618.45577962 the reason the priceless campaign is so powerful, I believe, is because you fill in the blanks in that campaign. 82 00:09:13,618.45577962 --> 00:09:16,388.45577962 It gives you cues of, the storylines. 83 00:09:16,388.45577962 --> 00:09:22,195.12244628 It allows you to go back to positive memories and think about how the brand related. 84 00:09:22,315.12244628 --> 00:09:23,605.12244628 Something in your life. 85 00:09:23,815.12244628 --> 00:09:32,455.12244628 And so that is, and so then you fill in the details of when you took your son or when you took your daughter to the ball game. 86 00:09:32,965.12244628 --> 00:09:37,725.12244628 And that is, makes it much more compelling because it is highly relevant at that point. 87 00:09:38,175.12244628 --> 00:09:46,688.45577962 And relevance is a key driver of brand purchase, you know, so, so our test basically allowed us to, to demonstrate that. 88 00:09:47,198.45577962 --> 00:10:00,281.78911295 The research methodology basically worked at an unconscious level, and, it got past, the traditional bias of someone answering a question based on what they think you would Right. 89 00:10:00,401.78911295 --> 00:10:01,181.78911295 Hear, you know. 90 00:10:01,203.45577962 --> 00:10:13,703.45577962 You know what I was when you were talking, I'm gonna move us to AI because I think you talked about emotion and creativity, which things, these pieces of ourselves, we kind of think about as more qualitative and it's difficult to quantify. 91 00:10:13,703.45577962 --> 00:10:17,758.45577962 And then, you were able to take that and really get into the science of it. 92 00:10:17,758.45577962 --> 00:10:29,378.45577962 Like what is the science of creativity, what is the science of emotion and how do you use data to help you create something that resonates with people more effectively? and that led to a lot of very successful work. 93 00:10:29,428.45577962 --> 00:10:31,318.45577962 did I get that right? I'm gonna pause. 94 00:10:31,498.45577962 --> 00:10:38,705.12244628 ultimately, a good research, a good science, you're able to have some sense of, how to recreate it, Uhhuh. 95 00:10:38,933.45577962 --> 00:10:46,628.45577962 by understanding the things you need to achieve in the execution of the work that gives you the results you're looking for, right? Right. 96 00:10:46,633.45577962 --> 00:10:51,26.78911295 And sometimes those are intuitive and you're lucky, and sometimes they're not. 97 00:10:51,236.78911295 --> 00:10:54,916.78911295 And you basically have to learn how to build those into your approach. 98 00:10:55,310.12244628 --> 00:10:58,920.12244628 So I guess my question to build on this is now, you know, there's. 99 00:10:59,565.12244628 --> 00:11:09,335.12244628 Machine learning has been around for a long time, but generative AI is something that is new and allows us to glean results from large amounts of data in different ways. 100 00:11:09,755.12244628 --> 00:11:22,695.12244628 I'm wondering about AI driven analytics and What opportunities do you see there? When did that appear on your radar? And you can talk about machine learning, which has been around longer or generative ai, which is more new. 101 00:11:23,168.45577962 --> 00:11:28,248.45577962 When AI became really kind of a thing probably, but, it's been almost two years ago. 102 00:11:28,278.45577962 --> 00:11:28,368.45577962 Mm-hmm. 103 00:11:28,608.45577962 --> 00:11:41,423.45577962 When it really became a topic, one of the things that I kind of felt like it was gonna be like is a little bit like computers when Mac came out, it basically empowered people to be more creative. 104 00:11:41,953.45577962 --> 00:11:43,993.45577962 IBM could never see the potential in it. 105 00:11:44,200.12244628 --> 00:11:52,600.12244628 Steve Jobs and his team could, that they could basically create something that would allow anyone to be able to expand their creativity. 106 00:11:53,170.12244628 --> 00:12:00,690.12244628 So I was a young advertising guy when all of that occurred, and so when we start talking about ai, I kind of did a flashback. 107 00:12:00,690.12244628 --> 00:12:02,640.12244628 And so, you know, this is gonna be kinda like. 108 00:12:03,120.12244628 --> 00:12:09,230.12244628 When, apple came out with, personal computers, it's gonna empower people in new ways. 109 00:12:09,800.12244628 --> 00:12:14,750.12244628 Things that they won't even haven't even thought about, they will be able to do with ai. 110 00:12:15,230.12244628 --> 00:12:23,660.12244628 So we hired a consultant back in 2023 to basically give us a tutorial and to train our team on how to use ai. 111 00:12:24,710.12244628 --> 00:12:31,780.12244628 And my first thought was AI would be most useful as a way To automate routine task. 112 00:12:31,810.12244628 --> 00:12:32,20.12244628 Mm-hmm. 113 00:12:32,260.12244628 --> 00:12:41,250.12244628 Things that you could do, it would take you time to do, you could train, AI to basically do them for you in less time. 114 00:12:41,850.12244628 --> 00:12:49,439.31155855 And so anything that was left reigned that was, would take a process, you could shorten that time very quickly with ai. 115 00:12:49,930.35880103 --> 00:12:51,700.35880103 That was the kind of the, the idea. 116 00:12:51,700.35880103 --> 00:12:53,830.35880103 So we, we trained our team. 117 00:12:54,40.35880103 --> 00:13:09,370.35880103 I had, been, you know, we had been developing social media posts for some time where we would, you know, I would work with a writer and that writer would basically work with me on the content that I wanted to deliver on social media. 118 00:13:09,880.35880103 --> 00:13:17,530.35880103 And, you know, I worked really hard to train her to have a really good understanding of the voice that I wanted to create in the marketplace. 119 00:13:18,235.35880103 --> 00:13:34,785.35880103 And so my challenge to her was, can you train an ai, to basically have the same voice? Over time so that you would just plug in a topic and it would write the articles for us and then we could edit them, make them the way we wanted to, but we'd, eliminate it. 120 00:13:35,55.35880103 --> 00:13:37,635.35880103 Eliminate a lot of time that was being, mm-hmm. 121 00:13:37,945.35880103 --> 00:13:38,455.35880103 developed. 122 00:13:38,815.35880103 --> 00:13:41,925.35880103 So, she did and she got very, very efficient. 123 00:13:41,925.35880103 --> 00:13:50,115.35880103 So, you know, my idea was that it would make life more efficient and productive because you would take things which were not necessarily adding value. 124 00:13:51,450.35880103 --> 00:13:54,840.35880103 And reduce the amount of time it would take to, to do that work. 125 00:13:55,57.35174715 --> 00:13:55,567.35174715 In essence. 126 00:13:55,567.35174715 --> 00:14:24,970.22313126 It can add value though, if you train it right? So with ai, just like any kinda research, If you have a really good data base and there's massive data out there now, right? So if you organize the data that you feed into an ai, machine, it can do things and analyze results that would take you days and days to do, and then may actually, you know, reveal, knowledge that you didn't ever. 127 00:14:25,825.22313126 --> 00:14:29,95.22313126 Would never have gotten because it looks at it from different perspectives. 128 00:14:29,545.22313126 --> 00:14:36,445.22313126 But you have to have a really good data set under any circumstances in order to get the right kind of AI results. 129 00:14:36,445.22313126 --> 00:14:41,545.22313126 If you want to do it, have it create something for you and generate something for you. 130 00:14:41,905.22313126 --> 00:14:46,285.22313126 It's gotta have a basis of facts from which to generate that outcome. 131 00:14:46,835.22313126 --> 00:14:53,435.22313126 So it made an easy leap from, you know, having a research background to going into an understanding of ai. 132 00:14:53,495.22313126 --> 00:14:55,55.22313126 Mm-hmm. 133 00:14:55,295.22313126 --> 00:15:03,795.22313126 How does, do you have an example of working with clients or an idea that you would like to pursue where you have data that maybe. 134 00:15:04,710.22313126 --> 00:15:14,530.22313126 That you've been able to draw these insights from, or you have data that you want to draw insights from, but it's not clean and it's not usable in the current state and how you've navigated that. 135 00:15:15,100.22313126 --> 00:15:18,970.22313126 So we're working with two clients right now on, AI driven results. 136 00:15:18,970.22313126 --> 00:15:28,229.37839724 And, one of them is, using, newer science, results of, a battery of tests that people take that would allow. 137 00:15:28,889.37839724 --> 00:15:36,609.37839724 them to profile their basic, behaviors and match them to the behaviors required for a job. 138 00:15:37,299.37839724 --> 00:15:43,949.37839724 So, if a lot of people are really smart at certain things, and they do that very well, they get promoted to a new job. 139 00:15:44,699.37839724 --> 00:15:50,39.37839724 And then they're not successful because that new job requires a different type of behavior. 140 00:15:50,639.37839724 --> 00:15:55,409.37839724 It may require more leadership, it may require more, oversight. 141 00:15:56,39.37839724 --> 00:16:02,699.37839724 And so that becomes a real issue as you begin to look at HR and moving people to our organization. 142 00:16:02,999.37839724 --> 00:16:06,649.37839724 But if you are able to gather data on how people behave. 143 00:16:06,849.85124905 --> 00:16:15,849.85124905 And you match that to the behavior needed for the new job, then you're able to promote people into areas where you give them a better chance for success, number one. 144 00:16:15,849.85124905 --> 00:16:23,39.85124905 And number two, that gives you an opportunity to train them in the areas where they need more, support. 145 00:16:23,699.85124905 --> 00:16:30,354.85124905 So if I'm not a natural leader, then I want to send you to a leadership school in order for you to have the behavior set that's required to. 146 00:16:30,924.85124905 --> 00:16:31,974.85124905 Perform this job. 147 00:16:32,424.85124905 --> 00:16:46,674.8512491 So that is a way that we are looking at AI because it basically gives a recommendation to both the individual who is being profiled, but also to the HR person that's trying to match up the right people for the right function. 148 00:16:47,394.8512491 --> 00:16:56,379.8512491 the other, work that we are doing is analyzing, let's say for example, US athlete and we analyze the athlete's, performance on the field. 149 00:16:56,694.8512491 --> 00:17:02,704.8512491 In real time, you can run that data, that video stream through an ai bot. 150 00:17:02,974.8512491 --> 00:17:13,445.5604556 You can understand basically the areas where that individual needs to improve, and you can do it very quickly, which would currently take a professional looking at it. 151 00:17:13,445.5604556 --> 00:17:21,935.5604556 But if a professional builds the model, then you can run any video through it, and that video would automatically give that. 152 00:17:22,580.5604556 --> 00:17:35,910.5604556 Say a baseball player, tips on how to improve its swing, and that would be fed into the system and that system would allow, recommendations that come out on the back end based on a professional observation. 153 00:17:36,150.5604556 --> 00:17:49,330.5604556 So those are two, examples where we're working with AI to basically create a branded product that adds value to a business or adds value to an individual who is trying to be a better athlete. 154 00:17:49,758.7698757 --> 00:17:55,448.7698757 Those are such cool examples, and it's like you have to have the ideal of what you're matching the data against. 155 00:17:55,448.7698757 --> 00:18:07,478.7698757 You need the ideal baseball stance, right, so that the AI can evaluate it, or you need the ideal profile of an employee and the characteristics that a business is looking for. 156 00:18:08,303.7698757 --> 00:18:08,753.7698757 Correct. 157 00:18:08,753.7698757 --> 00:18:11,333.7698757 And so in both cases it requires data. 158 00:18:11,603.7698757 --> 00:18:15,893.7698757 It requires a standard set of data that you're basically using. 159 00:18:15,893.7698757 --> 00:18:19,883.7698757 So if you have poor data, you'll get poor results. 160 00:18:19,973.7698757 --> 00:18:27,558.7698757 Now, the beautiful thing about AI is that it can translate, you know, images very quickly. 161 00:18:28,278.7698757 --> 00:18:32,178.7698757 Into something that gives you results or recommendations. 162 00:18:32,478.7698757 --> 00:18:37,428.7698757 One of our other clients, does monitoring of brand standards within, restaurant chains. 163 00:18:37,698.7698757 --> 00:18:43,78.7698757 One of those is what are their times of operation? And all of those are posted on a window. 164 00:18:43,408.7698757 --> 00:18:57,298.7698757 We have one client that used to manually record, dates and times, of operation for retail locations into a questionnaire format, But now they can just take a photograph of it and it automatically populates the form. 165 00:18:57,578.7698757 --> 00:19:00,158.7698757 it gives them a way to make that. 166 00:19:01,68.7698757 --> 00:19:05,598.7698757 research work and that assessment work that they do for brands, much more efficient. 167 00:19:06,168.7698757 --> 00:19:06,498.7698757 Hmm. 168 00:19:07,248.7698757 --> 00:19:07,668.7698757 Yeah. 169 00:19:07,668.7698757 --> 00:19:17,168.7698757 and we, that's such a new way of being able to process data is like be AI can process visual data in a way that we didn't have in the past. 170 00:19:18,458.7698757 --> 00:19:21,218.7698757 How has your mindset about AI. 171 00:19:21,563.7698757 --> 00:19:26,573.7698757 Evolved from where it initially started as you've learned more about how the technology works. 172 00:19:27,983.7698757 --> 00:19:31,773.7698757 Well, I would say that, it is a tool like a lot of other things. 173 00:19:31,773.7698757 --> 00:19:35,893.7698757 And, the more you use the tool, the better you are with the tool. 174 00:19:35,953.7698757 --> 00:19:40,503.7698757 And so, I would say that, we've embraced it as a company. 175 00:19:40,553.7698757 --> 00:20:00,683.7698757 In a way that we want to really become experts at it so that we can make recommendations to our clients and add value through our consultation, work with them, try to see opportunities for that tool to be used to make, brand experiences better and to the degree that we are, looking at. 176 00:20:00,998.7698757 --> 00:20:05,48.7698757 how to use it more effectively just to create content for our own company. 177 00:20:05,198.7698757 --> 00:20:10,448.7698757 That allows us to shorten the time it takes to develop white papers or points of view. 178 00:20:10,878.7698757 --> 00:20:12,708.7698757 we think it's the tip of the iceberg. 179 00:20:12,708.7698757 --> 00:20:23,8.7698757 I don't think people really understood the power of personal computers until, people began To really work on the software that would increase the power of them. 180 00:20:23,278.7698757 --> 00:20:35,888.7698757 So I think there are gonna probably be people who are gonna continue to improve The artificial intelligent bots or the, models that allow people to do more things better and faster and more intuitively. 181 00:20:36,248.7698757 --> 00:20:41,868.7698757 So, there probably is gonna be a user friendliness about it that will make people less afraid of it. 182 00:20:41,918.7698757 --> 00:20:43,418.7698757 and more engaged with it. 183 00:20:43,468.7698757 --> 00:20:56,358.7698757 you already see it with Google, you know, you go on and do a traditional online search and it automatically takes you to, an AI driven, result, which provides some insight to the question that you've asked. 184 00:20:56,358.7698757 --> 00:21:01,608.7698757 So I think it'll become part of the mainstream of how people. 185 00:21:02,468.7698757 --> 00:21:07,38.7698757 Interact online and how they, compose, their thoughts. 186 00:21:07,38.7698757 --> 00:21:26,398.7698757 I know that the universities are trying to figure out how do they integrate it into education and, how do they identify where people have actually, done their papers and homework based on an AI generated result versus. 187 00:21:27,568.7698757 --> 00:21:31,658.7698757 Actually understanding the topic and writing it themselves. 188 00:21:31,958.7698757 --> 00:21:34,418.7698757 Those are all things which we'll kind of work through. 189 00:21:34,718.7698757 --> 00:21:37,358.7698757 But I do think that it's not going away. 190 00:21:37,418.7698757 --> 00:21:42,248.7698757 It is only gonna change the way we do business and the way we interact with each other. 191 00:21:42,298.7698757 --> 00:21:46,998.7698757 When you think about that, branding is built on trust and it's built on emotion. 192 00:21:47,538.7698757 --> 00:21:58,103.7698757 How do you think AI is enriching or complicating those relationships? Well, you know, emotion is what is really hard to replicate with a machine. 193 00:21:58,803.7698757 --> 00:22:13,453.7698757 I'm not saying it would not be able to show empathy because there are some models out there now that you can plug in, like for coaching, certain, personality, traits and when providing feedback, for example, to an athlete. 194 00:22:14,83.7698757 --> 00:22:16,723.7698757 and some athletes need certain. 195 00:22:17,818.7698757 --> 00:22:30,958.7698757 Types of experiences and others respond better to other types of experiences in coaching? I think it probably will evolve, but I don't think the emotional part of it is something that's gonna happen immediately. 196 00:22:31,18.7698757 --> 00:22:41,398.7698757 I do think that when we think about, brands and empathy and responsiveness and general experience. 197 00:22:41,833.7698757 --> 00:22:48,973.7698757 I think it can enhance the experience that people might have by being more responsive and reactive to their needs. 198 00:22:49,483.7698757 --> 00:23:02,633.7698757 and how that gets translated as emotion that might translate positively into a positive emotion that, the brand actually cares for me, because it's responsive to my needs. 199 00:23:03,83.7698757 --> 00:23:07,963.7698757 That has to do more with the speed in which the individual is receiving, feedback. 200 00:23:08,563.7698757 --> 00:23:15,333.7698757 And in some cases it's really hard to tell the difference between a human interaction and one that's driven by machine today. 201 00:23:15,793.7698757 --> 00:23:18,793.7698757 To answer your question more specifically, I think it will evolve over time. 202 00:23:18,793.7698757 --> 00:23:25,613.7698757 I don't think it will replace the emotional direction that, is needed in order to create the content. 203 00:23:27,518.7698757 --> 00:23:36,88.7698757 Do you have a sense of what content you think humans need to be solely responsible for? Like what, where do humans need to be? Just humans. 204 00:23:36,88.7698757 --> 00:23:56,672.3196977 And where does AI come in? do you see any things that are sacred for the human behind the work? Or can everything be augmented at this point? what do you predict? where do you predict this goes? Well, there's, there are certain, interactions between individuals. 205 00:23:56,672.3196977 --> 00:24:03,902.3196977 The relationships that, are spontaneous and those are, intuitive. 206 00:24:04,382.3196977 --> 00:24:15,982.3196977 And so when you're providing counseling, for example, you know, you're looking not for verbal, Cues, you're looking for facial cues. 207 00:24:15,982.3196977 --> 00:24:29,522.3196977 I think those things can be taught as well with the ai, but I do think that, in certain cases, that might push the limit of what you would, of responsibility that you might wanna put on a machine in terms of how it affects the individual. 208 00:24:29,522.3196977 --> 00:24:31,202.3196977 So anytime there's a high risk. 209 00:24:31,877.3196977 --> 00:24:38,807.3196977 of someone being harmed by virtue of an emotional connection that comes outta the machine. 210 00:24:38,857.3196977 --> 00:24:43,687.3196977 I think that gets a little bit into the gray area that we have to really be careful to manage properly. 211 00:24:44,197.3196977 --> 00:24:52,517.3196977 I mean I think, and I use this kind of loosely, but I think you go to a therapist to listen to you and to respond to you and. 212 00:24:53,132.3196977 --> 00:24:55,672.3196977 Based on, the responses that you provide. 213 00:24:55,922.3196977 --> 00:25:04,712.3196977 I think that's a high standard that that person has been trained to understand and to respond to the cues, not just verbal, but other cues that the individual gives you. 214 00:25:05,192.3196977 --> 00:25:11,42.3196977 I'm not sure that I would put that into the area of artificial intelligence until a heck of a lot more work has been done on it. 215 00:25:11,552.3196977 --> 00:25:12,362.3196977 Absolutely. 216 00:25:12,362.3196977 --> 00:25:24,812.3196977 And in that same vein, in your work, have there been ethical or confidentiality challenges that you have had to navigate as you integrate ai? Not at this point. 217 00:25:24,812.3196977 --> 00:25:37,277.3196977 We haven't really, dealt with that, but, what we are trying to do is understand, the information, if someone puts personal information into a system, you wanna make sure that personal information is, protected. 218 00:25:37,607.3196977 --> 00:25:42,497.3196977 I mean, that's just basic data security, but, the way in which the machine. 219 00:25:42,603.6116115 --> 00:25:46,323.6116115 Sometimes takes data from different people that it learns from. 220 00:25:46,323.6116115 --> 00:25:51,753.6116115 So you just have to be really careful about how you co-mingle information that's being collected in the data sets. 221 00:25:51,803.6116115 --> 00:25:52,703.6116115 yeah, that's important. 222 00:25:52,753.6116115 --> 00:25:53,923.6116115 it should not be public. 223 00:25:54,943.6116115 --> 00:25:55,813.6116115 Absolutely. 224 00:25:55,813.6116115 --> 00:26:03,693.6116115 how do you separate data? How do you make sure your data is not, intermingled is important for data clarity of insights as well. 225 00:26:03,693.6116115 --> 00:26:20,778.6116115 Yeah, because there are certain, experiences that we have across different people, you know, our different experiences with different brands or, individuals that provides a collective understanding and knowledge that we use to make future judgements, right? that, that's called experience. 226 00:26:21,468.6116115 --> 00:26:24,118.6116115 And so that experience ends up. 227 00:26:24,468.6116115 --> 00:26:30,88.6116115 making your life easier or harder based on how you envision, the task at hand. 228 00:26:30,118.6116115 --> 00:26:30,448.6116115 Right. 229 00:26:30,448.6116115 --> 00:26:37,488.6116115 but that has to do with a lot of different data sets from a lot of different individuals, some of which is confidential, some of it's not. 230 00:26:37,818.6116115 --> 00:26:39,318.6116115 And you ha, you know. 231 00:26:39,418.6116115 --> 00:26:46,58.6116115 in our brains, we end up, knowing okay, we can, this part of my experience, I can't divulge. 232 00:26:46,143.6116115 --> 00:26:46,563.6116115 Mm-hmm. 233 00:26:46,648.6116115 --> 00:26:48,458.6116115 I can draw on it, but I can't divulge it. 234 00:26:48,458.6116115 --> 00:26:48,938.6116115 Right. 235 00:26:49,478.6116115 --> 00:27:04,783.6116115 And I think those are kind of the areas where, you know, a breach in data could create, exposure just like any other breach data we got hackers out there to get into your social security number and everything else. 236 00:27:04,783.6116115 --> 00:27:15,13.6116115 So I'm sure those will be, key guidelines that probably will end up being legislated, is my guess in terms of the rules of how that type of data is being used. 237 00:27:15,208.6116115 --> 00:27:15,238.6116115 Okay. 238 00:27:16,18.6116115 --> 00:27:16,858.6116115 Absolutely. 239 00:27:17,378.6116115 --> 00:27:22,198.6116115 I'm gonna ask you to kind of look into the future and think about where you see this technology going. 240 00:27:22,318.6116115 --> 00:27:26,968.6116115 It's cool that you were able to see, you know, how personal computers impacted industry. 241 00:27:26,968.6116115 --> 00:27:31,268.6116115 And now you're able to see how, AI is, and you saw the.com 242 00:27:31,268.6116115 --> 00:27:32,498.6116115 era, now you have ai. 243 00:27:32,498.6116115 --> 00:27:36,388.6116115 So these huge technological events have been. 244 00:27:37,288.6116115 --> 00:27:49,108.6116115 You've navigated while you've been in the branding industry, and so I'm curious about how you see behavioral science and AI reshaping brand strategy in the next few years. 245 00:27:49,648.6116115 --> 00:27:58,378.6116115 Drawing from your experience of seeing huge technological advances reshaping the industry over the past four decades. 246 00:27:59,86.9020732 --> 00:28:08,976.9020732 Well, I think that from a behavioral science standpoint, I think a lot of people have been a little bit fearful of how that information is used, but also think it's been very expensive to collect it. 247 00:28:09,6.9020732 --> 00:28:22,431.9020732 I think AI will allow us to collect data, around emotions a lot, more efficient, which will make it a lot easier for us to use it in a broader sense, Creating experiences that are more, enjoyable, more efficient. 248 00:28:22,581.9020732 --> 00:28:26,571.9020732 A lot of the work that we are looking at today, like in supermarkets and. 249 00:28:27,71.9020732 --> 00:28:34,191.9020732 museums where we are actually tracking, how people move through a museum or through a grocery store. 250 00:28:34,881.9020732 --> 00:28:43,221.9020732 We know that at certain points, if they dwell in front of a certain area for long enough that that experience, that makes it better. 251 00:28:43,831.9020732 --> 00:28:46,471.9020732 if it's highly crowded, then they may not. 252 00:28:46,936.9020732 --> 00:28:49,816.9020732 Enjoy the experience that you're looking for them to enjoy. 253 00:28:50,176.9020732 --> 00:28:56,326.9020732 So I think in the future, what we'll end up doing is using a lot of this data analysis. 254 00:28:56,916.9020732 --> 00:28:59,676.9020732 we'll basically plug in the actual results. 255 00:29:00,321.9020732 --> 00:29:04,601.9020732 that we are seeing, but it will allow us to design experiences better. 256 00:29:04,931.9020732 --> 00:29:17,871.9020732 So if I'm designing a museum, I might learn from a database of how people interact with, you know, exhibits and, and another museum to, to better design the flow of traffic. 257 00:29:18,231.9020732 --> 00:29:20,661.9020732 For the one that I'm getting ready to build. 258 00:29:20,901.9020732 --> 00:29:35,561.9020732 So I think it will improve the customer experience in that way, because it'll allow you to use that kind of intuitive data that, you never really understand until people interact with it to make for a better starting point. 259 00:29:35,591.9020732 --> 00:29:38,791.9020732 Probably not perfect the experience, but make it a better starting point. 260 00:29:39,321.9020732 --> 00:29:39,981.9020732 so. 261 00:29:41,256.9020732 --> 00:29:52,716.9020732 I think it probably would help, ultimately in scheduling, algorithms that are very complicated, that would allow us to move from one place to the next more efficiently. 262 00:29:53,286.9020732 --> 00:29:59,556.9020732 All of those things could significantly improved future infrastructure. 263 00:30:00,336.9020732 --> 00:30:01,716.9020732 and retail and how we behave. 264 00:30:02,46.9020732 --> 00:30:16,406.9020732 You already see it on, some of that on online shopping because basically when you're online, it recommends to you, new categories or items that you normally wouldn't be looking for based on your search behavior. 265 00:30:16,934.1369224 --> 00:30:39,924.1369224 When you were talking about using data to design a museum, I was thinking you could, use that data to design the type of museum you want to design I think there's things that you communicate through a design about your brand identity or your values, and so you can improve the consumer experience, but also you communicate something through the experience you create. 266 00:30:39,924.1369224 --> 00:30:41,634.1369224 And there's many different ways to do that. 267 00:30:41,634.1369224 --> 00:30:47,504.1369224 So it's exciting to imagine the possibility of alignment between. 268 00:30:48,344.1369224 --> 00:30:56,124.1369224 What a company wants to communicate about who they are and the experience that the person engaging with that company or organization gets to have. 269 00:30:57,270.803589 --> 00:30:57,690.803589 Yeah. 270 00:30:57,960.803589 --> 00:30:58,350.803589 Yeah. 271 00:30:58,350.803589 --> 00:31:05,200.803589 I think that ultimately, a lot of the work that we currently do. 272 00:31:05,395.803589 --> 00:31:07,195.803589 I'll call it left brained, through ob. 273 00:31:07,645.803589 --> 00:31:12,715.803589 A lot of times you will observe something, then you record the observation or you do time motion studies. 274 00:31:12,745.803589 --> 00:31:15,685.803589 All of those kinds of things will become supercharged with ai. 275 00:31:16,50.803589 --> 00:31:25,80.803589 that allow you to get to the more ideal, points faster, right? we get there today, but it just takes us more trial and effort to get there. 276 00:31:25,380.803589 --> 00:31:28,710.803589 I think we'll get there faster through AI enabled, learning. 277 00:31:29,730.803589 --> 00:31:30,480.803589 That's really cool. 278 00:31:31,140.803589 --> 00:31:55,94.5490766 My last question is, what idea or question about AI do you keep thinking about? How do you actually make, you know, how do you scale your business better, with ai? So can, can I use AI in my business to handle, more clients? And I think that becomes a big, economic advantage. 279 00:31:55,614.5490766 --> 00:31:58,14.5490766 if, if, if you consider that. 280 00:31:59,14.5490766 --> 00:32:22,464.5490766 someone could train, artificial intelligence to basically replace you, then you're thinking the wrong way and way we are trying to think about it is how do we provide more, how can we handle more clients, with a given staff, scale our business up, and at the same time maintain the quality of our, product. 281 00:32:22,854.5490766 --> 00:32:33,234.5490766 So for, for me, it's really looking toward how to apply it to scale the business that we, that we have and the kinds of insights and services that we offer. 282 00:32:33,974.234546 --> 00:32:35,24.234546 That makes sense. 283 00:32:35,24.234546 --> 00:32:42,769.234546 And it's exciting because there are opportunities to create, To use this data to create enhanced experience, enhanced guidance. 284 00:32:43,49.234546 --> 00:32:57,209.234546 this kind of takes me full circle back to the beginning of our conversation with our priceless commercial, where you were able to use, data-driven insights to create something that was more resonant with, with people. 285 00:32:57,209.234546 --> 00:33:04,979.234546 And so you have a tool now that allows you to create a lot more data-driven insights that can allow you to, you know, con connect with the. 286 00:33:05,514.234546 --> 00:33:19,694.234546 Brands to connect with the people that they're trying to reach, while also, making some of those challenging and kind of dry or admin repetitive tasks easier and automated so you have time to analyze what the data is telling you. 287 00:33:22,731.4660644 --> 00:33:30,891.4660644 What a cool conversation with Jim Cobb, thinking about the intersection of brand strategy, human emotion, and artificial intelligence. 288 00:33:31,191.4660644 --> 00:33:34,971.4660644 I wanna thank him so much for sharing his journey and deep expertise with us. 289 00:33:35,181.4660644 --> 00:33:44,691.4660644 I was particularly struck by how he connects the dots between using neuroscience to understand consumer emotion in the nineties and using AI today to analyze and create better. 290 00:33:44,776.4660644 --> 00:33:49,966.4660644 More resonant brand experiences from the evolution of branding to the future of the classroom. 291 00:33:50,206.4660644 --> 00:33:57,106.4660644 Join me next time on Kin Weiss Conversations when I'll be speaking with Ben Gordon Sniffen, a guide at the Innovative Alpha School. 292 00:33:57,316.4660644 --> 00:34:06,436.4660644 We'll explore their unique two hour learning model, which uses AI powered academics in the morning to create more time for human led passion driven projects in the afternoon. 293 00:34:06,646.4660644 --> 00:34:11,476.4660644 It's a fascinating look at how more AI might actually lead to more humanity in our schools. 294 00:34:11,896.4660644 --> 00:34:15,736.4660644 To dive deeper in today's topics with Jim, I've put everything for you in one place. 295 00:34:15,886.4660644 --> 00:34:20,176.4660644 Just head over to the resource page for this episode at kin wise.org/podcast. 296 00:34:20,416.4660644 --> 00:34:31,288.5439356 There you'll find the full transcript links to Jim's Work With Blood, how branding and a list of resources inspired by our conversation for the leaders and teams listening. 297 00:34:31,528.5439356 --> 00:34:38,728.5439356 If Jim's insights have you thinking about how to build a real AI strategy for your own work, I invite you to learn more about the Kin Wise Pilot program. 298 00:34:38,938.5439356 --> 00:34:47,38.5439356 We partner with organizations to create practical, human-centered professional development and policies that empower your team to use these tools with confidence and care. 299 00:34:47,218.5439356 --> 00:34:49,468.5439356 You can learn more at wise.org/pilot. 300 00:34:49,748.5439356 --> 00:34:53,738.5439356 if you found value in the conversation, the best way to support the show is to subscribe. 301 00:34:53,918.5439356 --> 00:34:56,348.5439356 Leave a quick review or share the episode with a friend. 302 00:34:56,408.5439356 --> 00:34:57,488.5439356 It makes a huge difference. 303 00:34:57,728.5439356 --> 00:35:01,88.5439356 Until next time, stay curious, stay grounded, and stay kin wise.