March 5, 2025 • 15 mins
Hey, Friend!
I am a huge fan of Brene' Brown’s work. In her book, Dare to Lead she introduces the idea of the Rumble, a conversation where the participants agree to enter with an open mind and a soft heart. In today’s episode, I share what I have learned about the Rumble.
It is a learning exercise whereby you seek to understand more than you seek to be understood. It requires curiosity, humility and a commitment to the health of your relationship, or repairing it if need be.
It absolutely works.
I pray this blesses you,
Becky
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Every organization, every church has a culture and a climate.
(00:05):
The culture is defined by what matters to us, how we do things here,
and then the climate is what does it feel like to be here?
It's the general essence of an organization.
And every employee or every minister in that organization or that church
should be asking themselves on a regular basis,
(00:26):
how do I protect and enrich the climate of this organization?
Because I'm either protecting and enriching it,
or I could be the one who's polluting it and contaminating it.
And I suggested three ways to do that.
There are preventative measures, maintenance measures, and repair measures.
Today I'm going to go a little deeper in the repair measures
(00:47):
by adapting some of the work of Brene' Brown to ministry.
It's called the Rumble.
Let's dive in to today's episode.
Hey, friend, are you a people-pleasing conflict avoiding leader?
Is your secret relationship with fear affecting your leadership decisions?
(01:08):
Do you want to learn how to build credibility and confidence
or to navigate difficult conversations?
Do you long to manage your time without sacrificing your family or self-care?
Welcome to leadership becomes her.
I'm Becky Burroughs, your host and a minister and life and leadership coach
with over 50 years experience in leadership.
(01:31):
I firmly believe God has given you everything you need to lead well.
You have the toolbox.
You just need to learn how to use the tools.
So get comfy or start a mindless task.
You know how to pause or rewind if you need to.
Let's get started.
[MUSIC]
(01:54):
So in last week's episode is I was going through the preventative and the maintenance
and the repair measures to take care of our climate.
Under repair, I suggested that you do something that I call the come back around.
And that is where let's say you have had conflict.
You have both been using different conflict management tools.
(02:17):
Maybe you chose the appropriate one for the situation.
Maybe you didn't.
Maybe your conflict was resolved.
Maybe it wasn't.
And you wait a day no more than two to come back around to that person as a learning exercise.
Because I'm not suggesting that you come back around to that person as saying,
you know, I want to talk about that conflict we had.
(02:40):
I'm not sure I got my point across.
So I'm not sure you fully understood where I was coming from.
I want to be sure that you don't misread my intention because I never intended to do this or that.
That is not the purpose of the come back around.
The purpose is for you to learn, for you to understand, for you to be more interested
(03:01):
in understanding the other person's perspective, understanding how that conflict made the other person feel
than you are interested in them understanding you.
So with the come back around you might say, you know, we had that thing on Monday and even though it was resolved or maybe not resolved,
I just didn't feel great about it and I wonder, I'd like to revisit it because I want to be sure
(03:24):
that I'm understanding you.
I'm understanding your perspective or where you're coming from or why you do that conclusion.
Help me understand how all of this has made you feel.
Because I am more interested in our relationship than I am who won this argument.
And so talk to me.
(03:46):
Help me understand.
And that humility alone of, I'm not here to make sure you understood where I was coming from or that you don't misread my intention,
but I'm here to learn and to grow from this conversation.
I'm here to deepen our relationship.
That humility very often encourages the other one to do likewise where they say, "Well, you know, I'm glad you came because I really want to understand you."
(04:12):
But even if they don't do that, the purpose of the come back around is for you to understand them.
But I want to suggest something else today that was actually coined by Brene' Brown in her book, "Dare to Lead."
And she calls it the rumble.
You know, a lot of Brene's work is about vulnerability.
(04:35):
And I often talk about the difference between being brave and having courage.
And when I'm brave to do something, I have no fear.
I either have a lot of experience, I have some expertise, I have some training.
For some reason I have no fear to do it.
But when I do have fear, then I have to draw upon my courage because courage always has an element of fear.
(04:59):
But it also makes us feel very vulnerable because we're having to tap into our courage and we're having to really kind of keep our fear at bay.
So Brene' came up with the idea of rumbling.
It is to rumble is really to say, "Let's have a real conversation even if it's tough."
(05:22):
She defines a rumble as a discussion, a conversation, or a meeting, which is defined by a commitment that both of you are going to lean into vulnerability.
Both of you are going to stay curious and generous.
Both of you are going to stick with the messy middle of identifying the problem and trying to solve the problem.
And then taking a break and circling back, coming back around if necessary, and being fearless about owning our own part in the problem.
(05:52):
To listen with the same passion that we want to be heard.
So, you know, where as I talked about the come back around, that's something you can do on your own.
It doesn't really require the other person to come to the meeting in a certain way.
But when you can, when you can establish a culture of, "Here, we rumble."
(06:14):
When we have issues, we rumble.
That is the cue that both of you are committed to coming into the conversation with an open heart and mind, so that we can resolve the issues and we can do the work and we can leave our egos at the door.
And open hearts and minds are absolutely critical to this, to the rumble.
(06:36):
It's not enough for one of you to come that way as I suggested before with the come back around.
Let me give you an example of a rumble.
So, I was doing a workshop with a group of preschool teachers and I was teaching them about Brene' Brown's rumble.
And I said, "I want you to go back to your classroom. Each classroom had a teacher and an assistant teacher and I want you to rumble about anything."
(06:58):
And then come back and report what that was like.
So, these two teachers came back that later on that day, I'm sorry, the next day, and the assistant teacher said, "We went to do our rumble and I said to her, you know, one of the issues I have is that you never asked me to help you.
I always have to figure out what it is you want me to do."
(07:22):
And the lead teacher said, "I don't even know what you're talking about. You helped me all day long. I know I do.
But I guess what you want me to do, rather than you telling me, here's what would help me the most."
And there's all kinds of things I could do during the day, but I want to do what helps you the most.
So, they had this wonderful conversation and they figured it out.
The lead teacher went home that night and she told her husband the story.
(07:45):
And he sat there and listened and then he goes, "Well, actually you do the same thing at home."
And again, she was incredulous, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I come home from work and you're already busy doing something."
And every time I ask you what I can do to help you say, "I've got it," which was the same thing the assistant teacher said that she said to her.
(08:08):
And he goes, "And so I try to find something I can do to help you."
But I never know if it's really being helpful or not. I would prefer you to say, "Here's what I really need you to do."
This was such an eye-opening experience for her, two people in her world, one who spends all day with her, the other who's her actual spouse, two people that want to genuinely be helpful, and two people complaining that every time I ask you what I can do, you say, "I've got it."
(08:35):
And she had no idea she had that habit.
And so that rumble, that one open conversation where we just were honest and we had a soft heart and an open mind, change the way she did her classroom, and change the way she interacted with her husband at home.
The rumble doesn't always have to be about, "If I come up to you and go, "Hey, let's rumble today."
(08:59):
It doesn't mean I've got issues with you. That's not the automatic response. It could be, "I have something I want to talk to you about."
It could be that I want to know something about myself. Have I, if you've seen me as defensive lately, "Do I seem to be this or that?"
It could be checking in, or maybe it's checking in with us as these two teachers did on our working relationship.
(09:24):
You see, nobody did anything wrong. The assistant teacher was trying to be helpful. The lead teacher was trying not to ask her to do too many things.
So everybody's intentions were good, but it was affecting the working relationship and they knew it could be better.
And so don't get into the habit of only rumbling when I have an issue with you. So that when I say, "Let's rumble," you're like, "Oh, brother, what is she upset about now?"
(09:52):
But getting into a habit of regular rumbling to just check in.
Hey, I want to rumble to see if there's anything you're seeing that I'm not seeing. Hey, I want to rumble because I'm curious about maybe some vibes I might be giving off that I don't mean to be giving off.
For example, have you ever seen someone expression on their face and you go, "Oh, what is she mad at me about?"
(10:14):
And you don't ask. You just assume because of the expression on her face or something.
And if you would ask, you would realize that she just had a fight with her husband over the phone before she came into the meeting and she's still reacting to that.
And so, you know, a rumble is a way to clear the air. Hey, I just want to make sure you and I are good.
Hey, I want to make sure I'm giving you tasks to do that you enjoy doing. Hey, I want to make sure that there's not any, I don't have any blind spots.
(10:43):
So, it's not always about having an issue with the other person. So, you know, we do a Amanda Box and I do a leadership boot camp for women in ministry.
It's a four-week online workshop. And one of the things Amanda, who is a communication coach, talks a lot about is having pocket phrases.
And I find that pocket phrases are absolutely fabulous rumble language and Brene' Brown, she doesn't call it pocket phrases but she actually says the same thing.
(11:12):
She calls it kind of a cheat sheet of rumble starters. So, think of a pocket phrase as a non-threatening way you can come into a rumble that kind of puts the other person at ease.
For example, hey, the story I'm making up is that you're upset with me because today when I was talking to the group, you had this really weird expression on your face.
(11:37):
And I need to know if I have offended you in some way and that gives that person the opportunity to go, "Uh, no, I'm sorry. I was still reeling from, I just gotten off the phone with my husband and we're not getting along real well."
And I was still reeling from that. I'm sorry, I gave you that impression. So, it's a very non-threatening way of clearing the air. Or, "I'm curious."
(11:58):
I'm curious about, and again, that's a way of asking a question that's not an interrogation but means I really want to learn.
Or, "Can you tell me more?" You know, you said the other day, you made this statement and I probably should have asked you at the time to explain what you meant.
And now, my imagination is all over the place. So, can you tell me more about what you were talking about?
(12:23):
Or, "I'm wondering." Or, "Help me understand." Or, "Can you walk me through this?" You gave an idea the other day and I'm trying to really wrap my head around it.
"Can you walk me through the steps as you see it?" Or, "I noticed you're really passionate about something."
"Can you help me understand your passion about this?" Because this seems to be very important to you. And if it's important to you, it's going to be important to me.
(12:49):
Or, "Tell me why this isn't working for you." You've made some statements lately and I want to really understand it.
You see how, by using those pocket phrases, it's non-threatening. It gives the connotation that you're there to learn. You're there to receive information. You're there to understand.
(13:10):
And even if there's been some conflict that you've had, let's say you had that hard conversation on Monday, let's say you resolved it.
You want to check in and make sure you're good. And so, by waiting a day or even no longer than two and saying, "You know, we had that hard conversation on Monday."
And I walked away from it, feeling like we resolved it, but I want to make sure you and I are good.
(13:36):
Is there a way I could have handled that differently? Or, "Is there any questions about anything I said?"
I want to be sure that we get each other and that we're good moving forward.
It opens that door to mutually being vulnerable, to mutually resolving and repairing the relationship so that, and honestly, quite honestly, your relationship, you'll find often that it's deeper.
(14:10):
Because you entered into this conversation with vulnerability, courageously, but with some fear, and a curious mind and an open heart, because the relationship matters more than you getting your way.
I hope this has been helpful as you are thinking about ways to repair the climate of your organization or of your ministry.
(14:36):
And hey, let's do this again next week.
It is my prayer that this podcast inspired you, blessed you, or made you think.
If so, please share it with a friend, subscribe, and please leave a review.
Hey, I want to connect with you. Follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Send me a DM, or email me at hello@beckyburroughs.com.
(15:02):
If you are a Christian woman who leads and you are interested in one of my Leadership Bootcamps for Women in Ministry, this is a four week workshop, or becoming part of a Kairos Cohort, your long group coaching. Send me a DM, or an email for more information.
We'll talk soon.
[MUSIC]
Every organization, every church has a culture and a climate.
(00:05):
The culture is defined by what matters to us, how we do things here,
and then the climate is what does it feel like to be here?
It's the general essence of an organization.
And every employee or every minister in that organization or that church
should be asking themselves on a regular basis,
(00:26):
how do I protect and enrich the climate of this organization?
Because I'm either protecting and enriching it,
or I could be the one who's polluting it and contaminating it.
And I suggested three ways to do that.
There are preventative measures, maintenance measures, and repair measures.
Today I'm going to go a little deeper in the repair measures
(00:47):
by adapting some of the work of Brene' Brown to ministry.
It's called the Rumble.
Let's dive in to today's episode.
Hey, friend, are you a people-pleasing conflict avoiding leader?
Is your secret relationship with fear affecting your leadership decisions?
(01:08):
Do you want to learn how to build credibility and confidence
or to navigate difficult conversations?
Do you long to manage your time without sacrificing your family or self-care?
Welcome to leadership becomes her.
I'm Becky Burroughs, your host and a minister and life and leadership coach
with over 50 years experience in leadership.
(01:31):
I firmly believe God has given you everything you need to lead well.
You have the toolbox.
You just need to learn how to use the tools.
So get comfy or start a mindless task.
You know how to pause or rewind if you need to.
Let's get started.
[MUSIC]
(01:54):
So in last week's episode is I was going through the preventative and the maintenance
and the repair measures to take care of our climate.
Under repair, I suggested that you do something that I call the come back around.
And that is where let's say you have had conflict.
You have both been using different conflict management tools.
(02:17):
Maybe you chose the appropriate one for the situation.
Maybe you didn't.
Maybe your conflict was resolved.
Maybe it wasn't.
And you wait a day no more than two to come back around to that person as a learning exercise.
Because I'm not suggesting that you come back around to that person as saying,
you know, I want to talk about that conflict we had.
(02:40):
I'm not sure I got my point across.
So I'm not sure you fully understood where I was coming from.
I want to be sure that you don't misread my intention because I never intended to do this or that.
That is not the purpose of the come back around.
The purpose is for you to learn, for you to understand, for you to be more interested
(03:01):
in understanding the other person's perspective, understanding how that conflict made the other person feel
than you are interested in them understanding you.
So with the come back around you might say, you know, we had that thing on Monday and even though it was resolved or maybe not resolved,
I just didn't feel great about it and I wonder, I'd like to revisit it because I want to be sure
(03:24):
that I'm understanding you.
I'm understanding your perspective or where you're coming from or why you do that conclusion.
Help me understand how all of this has made you feel.
Because I am more interested in our relationship than I am who won this argument.
And so talk to me.
(03:46):
Help me understand.
And that humility alone of, I'm not here to make sure you understood where I was coming from or that you don't misread my intention,
but I'm here to learn and to grow from this conversation.
I'm here to deepen our relationship.
That humility very often encourages the other one to do likewise where they say, "Well, you know, I'm glad you came because I really want to understand you."
(04:12):
But even if they don't do that, the purpose of the come back around is for you to understand them.
But I want to suggest something else today that was actually coined by Brene' Brown in her book, "Dare to Lead."
And she calls it the rumble.
You know, a lot of Brene's work is about vulnerability.
(04:35):
And I often talk about the difference between being brave and having courage.
And when I'm brave to do something, I have no fear.
I either have a lot of experience, I have some expertise, I have some training.
For some reason I have no fear to do it.
But when I do have fear, then I have to draw upon my courage because courage always has an element of fear.
(04:59):
But it also makes us feel very vulnerable because we're having to tap into our courage and we're having to really kind of keep our fear at bay.
So Brene' came up with the idea of rumbling.
It is to rumble is really to say, "Let's have a real conversation even if it's tough."
(05:22):
She defines a rumble as a discussion, a conversation, or a meeting, which is defined by a commitment that both of you are going to lean into vulnerability.
Both of you are going to stay curious and generous.
Both of you are going to stick with the messy middle of identifying the problem and trying to solve the problem.
And then taking a break and circling back, coming back around if necessary, and being fearless about owning our own part in the problem.
(05:52):
To listen with the same passion that we want to be heard.
So, you know, where as I talked about the come back around, that's something you can do on your own.
It doesn't really require the other person to come to the meeting in a certain way.
But when you can, when you can establish a culture of, "Here, we rumble."
(06:14):
When we have issues, we rumble.
That is the cue that both of you are committed to coming into the conversation with an open heart and mind, so that we can resolve the issues and we can do the work and we can leave our egos at the door.
And open hearts and minds are absolutely critical to this, to the rumble.
(06:36):
It's not enough for one of you to come that way as I suggested before with the come back around.
Let me give you an example of a rumble.
So, I was doing a workshop with a group of preschool teachers and I was teaching them about Brene' Brown's rumble.
And I said, "I want you to go back to your classroom. Each classroom had a teacher and an assistant teacher and I want you to rumble about anything."
(06:58):
And then come back and report what that was like.
So, these two teachers came back that later on that day, I'm sorry, the next day, and the assistant teacher said, "We went to do our rumble and I said to her, you know, one of the issues I have is that you never asked me to help you.
I always have to figure out what it is you want me to do."
(07:22):
And the lead teacher said, "I don't even know what you're talking about. You helped me all day long. I know I do.
But I guess what you want me to do, rather than you telling me, here's what would help me the most."
And there's all kinds of things I could do during the day, but I want to do what helps you the most.
So, they had this wonderful conversation and they figured it out.
The lead teacher went home that night and she told her husband the story.
(07:45):
And he sat there and listened and then he goes, "Well, actually you do the same thing at home."
And again, she was incredulous, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I come home from work and you're already busy doing something."
And every time I ask you what I can do to help you say, "I've got it," which was the same thing the assistant teacher said that she said to her.
(08:08):
And he goes, "And so I try to find something I can do to help you."
But I never know if it's really being helpful or not. I would prefer you to say, "Here's what I really need you to do."
This was such an eye-opening experience for her, two people in her world, one who spends all day with her, the other who's her actual spouse, two people that want to genuinely be helpful, and two people complaining that every time I ask you what I can do, you say, "I've got it."
(08:35):
And she had no idea she had that habit.
And so that rumble, that one open conversation where we just were honest and we had a soft heart and an open mind, change the way she did her classroom, and change the way she interacted with her husband at home.
The rumble doesn't always have to be about, "If I come up to you and go, "Hey, let's rumble today."
(08:59):
It doesn't mean I've got issues with you. That's not the automatic response. It could be, "I have something I want to talk to you about."
It could be that I want to know something about myself. Have I, if you've seen me as defensive lately, "Do I seem to be this or that?"
It could be checking in, or maybe it's checking in with us as these two teachers did on our working relationship.
(09:24):
You see, nobody did anything wrong. The assistant teacher was trying to be helpful. The lead teacher was trying not to ask her to do too many things.
So everybody's intentions were good, but it was affecting the working relationship and they knew it could be better.
And so don't get into the habit of only rumbling when I have an issue with you. So that when I say, "Let's rumble," you're like, "Oh, brother, what is she upset about now?"
(09:52):
But getting into a habit of regular rumbling to just check in.
Hey, I want to rumble to see if there's anything you're seeing that I'm not seeing. Hey, I want to rumble because I'm curious about maybe some vibes I might be giving off that I don't mean to be giving off.
For example, have you ever seen someone expression on their face and you go, "Oh, what is she mad at me about?"
(10:14):
And you don't ask. You just assume because of the expression on her face or something.
And if you would ask, you would realize that she just had a fight with her husband over the phone before she came into the meeting and she's still reacting to that.
And so, you know, a rumble is a way to clear the air. Hey, I just want to make sure you and I are good.
Hey, I want to make sure I'm giving you tasks to do that you enjoy doing. Hey, I want to make sure that there's not any, I don't have any blind spots.
(10:43):
So, it's not always about having an issue with the other person. So, you know, we do a Amanda Box and I do a leadership boot camp for women in ministry.
It's a four-week online workshop. And one of the things Amanda, who is a communication coach, talks a lot about is having pocket phrases.
And I find that pocket phrases are absolutely fabulous rumble language and Brene' Brown, she doesn't call it pocket phrases but she actually says the same thing.
(11:12):
She calls it kind of a cheat sheet of rumble starters. So, think of a pocket phrase as a non-threatening way you can come into a rumble that kind of puts the other person at ease.
For example, hey, the story I'm making up is that you're upset with me because today when I was talking to the group, you had this really weird expression on your face.
(11:37):
And I need to know if I have offended you in some way and that gives that person the opportunity to go, "Uh, no, I'm sorry. I was still reeling from, I just gotten off the phone with my husband and we're not getting along real well."
And I was still reeling from that. I'm sorry, I gave you that impression. So, it's a very non-threatening way of clearing the air. Or, "I'm curious."
(11:58):
I'm curious about, and again, that's a way of asking a question that's not an interrogation but means I really want to learn.
Or, "Can you tell me more?" You know, you said the other day, you made this statement and I probably should have asked you at the time to explain what you meant.
And now, my imagination is all over the place. So, can you tell me more about what you were talking about?
(12:23):
Or, "I'm wondering." Or, "Help me understand." Or, "Can you walk me through this?" You gave an idea the other day and I'm trying to really wrap my head around it.
"Can you walk me through the steps as you see it?" Or, "I noticed you're really passionate about something."
"Can you help me understand your passion about this?" Because this seems to be very important to you. And if it's important to you, it's going to be important to me.
(12:49):
Or, "Tell me why this isn't working for you." You've made some statements lately and I want to really understand it.
You see how, by using those pocket phrases, it's non-threatening. It gives the connotation that you're there to learn. You're there to receive information. You're there to understand.
(13:10):
And even if there's been some conflict that you've had, let's say you had that hard conversation on Monday, let's say you resolved it.
You want to check in and make sure you're good. And so, by waiting a day or even no longer than two and saying, "You know, we had that hard conversation on Monday."
And I walked away from it, feeling like we resolved it, but I want to make sure you and I are good.
(13:36):
Is there a way I could have handled that differently? Or, "Is there any questions about anything I said?"
I want to be sure that we get each other and that we're good moving forward.
It opens that door to mutually being vulnerable, to mutually resolving and repairing the relationship so that, and honestly, quite honestly, your relationship, you'll find often that it's deeper.
(14:10):
Because you entered into this conversation with vulnerability, courageously, but with some fear, and a curious mind and an open heart, because the relationship matters more than you getting your way.
I hope this has been helpful as you are thinking about ways to repair the climate of your organization or of your ministry.
(14:36):
And hey, let's do this again next week.
It is my prayer that this podcast inspired you, blessed you, or made you think.
If so, please share it with a friend, subscribe, and please leave a review.
Hey, I want to connect with you. Follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Send me a DM, or email me at hello@beckyburroughs.com.
(15:02):
If you are a Christian woman who leads and you are interested in one of my Leadership Bootcamps for Women in Ministry, this is a four week workshop, or becoming part of a Kairos Cohort, your long group coaching. Send me a DM, or an email for more information.
We'll talk soon.
[MUSIC]
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