In this episode of LEGENDS: Podcast by All Day Vinyl, host Scott Dudelson explores the extraordinary life and career of four-time Grammy-winning artist, Deniece Williams. From humble beginnings in Gary, Indiana, to gracing the global stage with her iconic songs, Williams shares the stories and lessons learned from her remarkable journey.
Listeners are given a front row seat as Williams recalls her time working with Stevie Wonder on his Talking Book album, touring with The Rolling Stones during their infamous 1972 tour of the USA, showing Stevie Wonder how to drive and how her solo career was kicked off with chance encounter with Maurice White of Earth, Wind and Fire.
We discuss the making of her debut album "This is Niecy" which was recorded with Earth, Wind and Fire as the backing band and brought Deniece her first taste of stardom, her work with Johnny Mathis and meeting Prince Charles with Johnny. How she convinced George Duke to make "Lets Hear it for The Boy" which ended up being her largest pop hit and the time her studio was turned Purple by Prince.
This episode invites audiences to delve deeper into Deniece's partnerships with industry greats like George Duke and Thom Bell, highlighting the creative processes and insights that led to the creation of her enduring hits. The discussion not only celebrates her illustrious musical journey but also emphasizes her dedication to giving back to her community and paving the way for future generations.
Capturing the perseverance, grit and unwavering spirit that marked Deniece's career, this episode provides a glimpse into the unique experiences and profound influence of this living legend.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Thank you for listening. This is the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl,
and I'm your host, Scott Duddleson.
After you finish this episode, please subscribe, rate, and check us out on Instagram
and YouTube at All Day Vinyl.
Today, I'm excited to speak with a four-time Grammy-winning singer,
songwriter, producer, and member of the Women's Songwriters Hall of Fame.
My guest has recorded a number of iconic songs, including her first R&B hit, Free, in 1976.
(00:23):
Let's hear it for the boy from the Footloose soundtrack and the theme from Family
Ties, which was a duet with Johnny Mathis.
She's had an incredible career, extraordinary life, and I'm excited and pleased
to introduce to you Denise Williams. Hey, Denise.
Hey, lovely. Thank you. I'm a big shot now.
You've always been a big shot. You've been a big shot since the early days.
(00:44):
And let's even start back there.
So you were raised in Gary, Indiana, which you just told me you're also going
back to as an ambassador. fastener.
So tell me, tell me a little about Gary, Indiana in the, when you were growing
up and tell me what you're doing to revitalize it now. And then we'll jump into the story.
I sure will. You know, it's just been tremendous. I grew up in Gary,
(01:07):
Indiana, and I just had a fabulous childhood there.
You know, I remember going out in the street during the autumn and we'd gather
up all the leaves and we'd put potatoes on the end of the stick.
We'd light like this huge bonfire and sit out there and roast our potatoes.
And, you know, just there were on my block growing up, there must've been at least 20 children.
(01:30):
I mean, the wards across the street had 10 kids alone.
So that was half of the population of my block and being outside until,
you know, you have to be inside by the time the street light comes on.
And, you know, my house was the a hangout house.
And I used to be so upset with my mom. Why our house?
(01:51):
You know, all the boys over here, all my brother's friends are here.
She said, no, I like it like that because at least I know where my son is.
And, you know, just going out Halloween and soaping up the windows and walking to school.
It was just a great time to be in Gary, Indiana.
My high school was the only high school that was interracial.
(02:14):
There were Hispanics, white, across the board.
It was just great to be in that environment to prepare us for the world.
I just loved growing up. I think I had the best, best childhood.
Then we were only 30 minutes away from Chicago, Illinois.
(02:35):
So we would go over to the Museum of History and Science and go to Riverview at the park there.
It was just an incredible, incredible childhood and what I remember.
And, you know, over the years, it has suffered a great loss of not being,
you know, managed properly and things done properly.
(02:56):
But now I'm back there and help get this new young mayor into office and with
some incredible ideas. is.
And we are, it's called big building, building and Gary, a beauty and Gary.
And so I was just there this past Saturday, picking up trash.
Every Saturday people are coming out and we're picking up trash off of the streets
(03:19):
and, you know, cleaning up the city.
And yeah, I'm an ambassador. They tell me they're going to name a street after me.
Yeah. And my grandfather's home where I spent the first eight years of my life
is going to be a historical museum down the street from the Jackson five because the Jackson five,
(03:41):
Michael Jackson, they are from Gary,
Indiana and their house that they grew up in is a historical museum as a historical site.
So now my grandfather's house where I grew up is about to be an historical site.
And it's just, it's, it's just all incredible things happening.
That is incredible. So your grandfather lived a few blocks from the Jacksons?
(04:03):
Yes. Wow. Did you ever have any encounter with them when you were younger?
Oh, yeah. I remember meeting Michael. I think Michael was about six years old, maybe five.
And we were at the Masonic Temple. There was a show there with this guy,
Gene Chandler, who was the Duke of Earl. He had a song called The Duke of Earl.
And he was there and they were on the show with him and that was the first time
(04:26):
that I saw Jackson 5, Michael and the Jackson 5 perform. So yeah, we.
That was before they were signed to Motown? That was before they were signed to Motown.
And they had a local record out, little record out called, You're a big boy
now, no more daddy's little boy.
(04:46):
You're a big man now, no more daddy's little boy. And I had my first local record
to come out that was written and produced by Gene Records of the Shy Lights
and Barbara Acklin, who did a song called Love Makes a Woman.
They produced mine. And so we came out at the same time.
And I remember their cousin, who was the drummer, came knocking on my door and
(05:08):
he said, we just signed to Motown and we're moving to California.
What are you going to do? I said, I'm going to school. I'm going to be a nurse.
Even though you had that record, you were going by a different name, right?
My maiden name was Chandler Denise. Yeah.
No, I wanted to be a nurse. I didn't want to sing because I grew up in a very
(05:28):
strict religious environment.
And if I sang the devil's music, I was on my way to hell. And I was trying to
stay off the weenie road, Scott. I didn't want to go to hell.
Wow. Were you singing in churches growing up? Oh, yeah. I used to sing in church all the time.
My grandfather was a pastor. He had about 25 members, 20 members at the most in a little storefront.
(05:54):
And my great uncle was also the bishop of the state of Indiana for the Church
of God and Christ. He had about 70 members.
That was a big church then. And so I was singing in church all the time.
And it's funny. At my grandfather's church, I don't know if you remember this
show called What's Happening?
(06:16):
Yeah. And Ernest Thomas, Rerun and Ernest Thomas.
Ernest Thomas and I went to my grandfather's church and we were the choir,
just the two of us. Wow. Amazing. Yeah.
And so you weren't listening to non-secular music. It was mostly gospel and religious growing up.
Oh, no, I was listening. My mom had a record player. She had an incredible LP
(06:39):
collection, not like the one I see behind you. Oh, my gosh.
But my mom had this incredible LP collection. And I would sneak into her room
after school and listen to Nancy Wilson.
You know, Jackie Gleason had an orchestra. Jackie Gleason Orchestra that did
all the standards, Dakota Staton.
(07:00):
I would listen to all of these artists, Little Jimmy Scott.
Nancy Wilson was my favorite. I wanted to look like her, sing like her,
be like her. And so I was listening.
And then when I was a senior in high school, my math teacher bought a record
store and I asked him for a job after school and he gave me a job after school.
(07:25):
My mom said I could work and I would be sitting there, you know,
spinning the 45s and I'd be singing with him.
I sing with Aretha Franklin and Supremes and all of the Gladys.
And one day he happened to
be in the back where all of the you know product
was where he stacked the product he was in the back and
(07:47):
I was in the front I didn't know he was back there so I started singing and
he came in there he said I didn't know you could sing I said well you would
know that if you came to church on Sundays and so he was the one that went to
Chicago and brought over Ernie Thomas from.
(08:08):
I forget the name of the record label, but anyway, he bought a Eugene Records
and Barbara Aklanova asked me to sing.
I sang and that's how I got my first local record.
But I wasn't going to do it. I wasn't going to hell.
Well, how did how did you get from going to nursing school to I think your first
(08:29):
gig was with Stevie Wonder and Wonder Love. Is that right?
Yes. I had a cousin when we were 14 years old, his grandmother and my grandmother were sisters.
So during the summer, we turned 14, John, his name was John Harris.
He would come and stay one week at his grandmother's house in Gary.
(08:50):
And, oh, he was the finest man I'd ever seen in my life.
He had the process hair and it was like, oh, my God, he was the Billy Dee of my time.
And anyway he comes in
there and so he would say oh I
know Stevie Wonder you know I know Stevie Wonder Stevie
and I are close I said shut up Pinocchio
(09:12):
everybody that lives in Detroit say they know Stevie Wonder you don't know Stevie
Wonder but after him saying that seven years it was him that got me the audition
with Stevie and I got the job as a background singer with Stevie was because
my cousin told me for seven years that he knew Stevie and I didn't believe him.
And you weren't, you weren't planning or were you doing any music prior to that?
(09:35):
Or you just focused on your studies?
I was in school, Scott, I found out that I was not a good student.
That science was kicking my behind.
I said, what? You got to know this to be a nurse, you know?
And so I called him. He called me one day and he said, you know, we're coming into town.
(09:55):
Stevie's performing and I'll get you some tickets. I said, yeah, okay.
And he said, well, what are you doing? I said, I'm not doing well in school.
I got to figure out what to do it myself. myself and that's when
he said well stevie's looking for singers i told him
about you so let me get the audition so no
i was in school but i was i was at purdue university but i was i wasn't wasn't
(10:18):
doing good at all absolutely incredible and so stevie wonder at that time that
was like i mean he had released a number of albums since he was a kid but that
time was music he had I'd probably just put out music of my mind.
And then there's talking book is yes. Amen. Is that right? Yes. Yeah.
And it was just incredible just to watch him, you know, in his creativity.
(10:42):
And actually, that's when I found out that I was a songwriter because I'd been writing poetry.
You know, I'd been writing a lot of poems out through high school.
I'd actually had a poem published about the state of Indiana,
one of my poems won in the state of Indiana and I was in a book.
But when I joined Stevie, that's when I found out that poetry plus music equals
(11:07):
song and started writing.
And so when you joined Stevie, was it for a tour or was it for the recording
of one of those albums, probably Talking Book, I would guess?
No, when I joined Stevie, he was touring. And so I was so excited because they
said, oh, the next concert, my first concert, it's going to be in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
(11:31):
And I'm like, I'm on my way to Philly. Oh, my God, I'm on my way to Philly.
You know, I just heard about Philly.
I'm on my way. We were outside of Philly in this little town called King of Prussia.
And we did this, we did this whole concert thing and it was really great.
But I started with him and he started touring.
(11:51):
And about three months into that tour, we ended up as the opening act for the Rolling Stones.
And so I was on the road with him with the Rolling Stones. I want to ask you
a little about that, because that was a very famous tour, that tour of the United
States. And it was documented.
There was a movie that never came out called Cox's. Oh, did you know about that?
(12:11):
No, I didn't know that they produced a movie on it.
Yeah, so at the time during that tour, there was a documentarian who was there
filming a lot of the backstage and the concerts.
And they put together an edit. And people have seen it. I've not seen it, but it's around.
And the Rolling Stones blocked it from being released because they felt it was too debaucherous.
(12:34):
Because that tour, the backstage stuff showed a lot of debauchery.
Don't ask yeah but what was also in the film which
was incredible from what i've heard and i hope to one day see it
is at the end of the concert stevie would jam with
the rolling stones yeah do so i
want to ask you a little about your about that tour and things you remember
and you know did you were you on some of those jams with the the stones and
(12:59):
what was that experience like you know after after we came had our part you
know the the band and everything we didn't sit in on the jam sessions with Stevie and the Stones.
We knew that they were going on, but especially the background singers,
I don't think any of us sat in with that.
And as far as the debauchery, there was a whole lot of that going on.
(13:20):
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the Rolling Stones helped me pick up my prayer
life because I was out there praying, help me, Lord, help me, Lord.
You see what they're doing over in that corner? Help me, Lord, help me, Lord.
You know, I mean, it was amazing to see
them had their own doctor out there in case
somebody needed medical treatment you know I
(13:42):
remember one night after a concert in
Chicago we went out to get
on the bus and the police were there trying to disband you know all the fans
that were out there and they were throwing tear gas and we got caught in the
tear gas and I thought I got on the bus for the for our group I ended up at
(14:03):
the what was the Playboy Mansion at some party.
And I was praying, Lord, if you get me out of here, I ain't never coming up
in here again. Please, please, Lord.
Please, Lord. You know I don't belong up in here. And I remember being in a
room and the room was totally black. I don't know how I got there.
And all it had was a fireman's pole in the middle of the room.
(14:23):
And I was calling down and I was saying, can somebody help me?
I'm stuck in this room. I don't know how I got here. can somebody help me and
somebody said go down the pole go down the pole and I was like no I'm not go
down the pole so I eventually went down the pole like I have to remember,
I said, Lord, if you get me out here, I'm never coming to the Playboy Mansion again.
(14:46):
You know, good missionary, good Christian girls don't belong in the Playboy Mansion.
I don't know how I got here. But it was, I'm telling you, there were nights
with the Rolling Stones, but it was just incredible.
I think the thing that I was impressed with the most is how much people loved them, loved the music.
I mean, they were into the music. They would hit the stage. And even with Stevie,
(15:09):
I mean, because now they were being introduced to him, you know,
the world was big and it it was the most incredible.
One of the most incredible moments in my career was to be out there with them.
Incredible. And how did the audience react to Stevie?
Oh, they loved it. Yeah. Loved him. I mean, it was after that that he really his career took off.
(15:31):
Next, you know, he's getting seven Grammys, you know. Yeah, that's some of the
best records ever made is what he read.
And it started, you know, certainly the Rolling Stones played a huge part in that.
You know, Scott, I'm always, what's the word I want, impressed by the people in London.
(15:54):
I mean, you know, we have fans all over the world.
But I tell you, the British fans, they know everything. They had that record
when I was Denise Chandler. They know all your business.
They know from the beginning. They follow you. They're very,
very loyal and very, very much into not only the music, but you as a person, your life.
(16:16):
And it was just incredible to see how even the recording artists in London love
American artists so much.
When you think of, you know, in the early days with Muddy Waters and all those
folks going over to London, they had no idea how popular they were and how much
love, how loved they were until they went over there.
(16:37):
And it's like, oh, my God, you know, America is one thing, but there's a whole
nother world that loves this music. Yeah, there would be no Rolling Stones without
Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry in American music, American blues.
That's right. And what I respect about it is they tell you, you know,
we listen to this person, we listen to that person.
(16:57):
It's, you know, it's just amazing how they gravitate to our music and what they've
learned and the credit that they give to American artists through their music.
So at what point did you start recording Talking Book?
And I'm curious of any memories of those sessions, you going in recording the vocals.
(17:21):
Well, I tell you, we were recording all the time.
We really had no idea what would end up on Stevie's project because we were constantly recording.
I mean, we'd be in the studio. He would be in the studio 24-7 when we weren't traveling.
And so would we you know we'd come in
(17:41):
and he'd play an idea and we said oh yeah
okay we like that and you know we record it so
you know there was x amount of songs that came out on those projects but we
probably recorded triple or quadruple the amount of music that actually ended
up on the project i mean his the creativity is off the chain with him yeah and he he played most of the
(18:07):
instruments himself on these records is right he did he did yep he did in terms
of because he used he's a visionary and on all fronts of those albums or yes
highly enough of them and so when
you're doing these vocals does he have a vision of where he wants wants it to
be or you and the other vocalists coming up with your own vision of it it was
(18:31):
both and a lot of times he knew what he wanted us to sing and he would tell
us and then while he'd be playing or something And we, you know, we'd hum something,
you know, join in and start humming or throw out an idea.
So it was very open. It was him telling us and giving us direction,
but also us creating, you know, what we thought we should be saying and how
(18:51):
it should be said and when it should be said. Yeah, it was very open.
You've mentioned in interviews that Stevie, like you've learned,
you learned a lot from Stevie.
But I didn't really hear specifically what those things are that you did learn.
And what are those lessons, you know, 40 years on, 50 years on that still are
imparted with you from that time working with this genius at a seminal moment in history?
(19:17):
Well, like I said, the thing about Stevie is, too, is that he,
you know, just music just oozed out of him.
And I think us being around, our being around Stevie, it oozed out of us.
You know, I mean, there's so there was so much of a genius and musicality in
that environment until it drew us in and drew things out of us.
(19:40):
You know, things that I wouldn't have thought of singing or things that I hadn't heard before.
I started to hear just because of what he was sending out would make me and
Lonnie and Shirley and the other singers do certain things and the musicians as well.
Well, you know, I was in a band, it was the Brecker Brothers were there when
(20:02):
I first got there. Yeah, a hot band.
A hot band. I've seen the footage and it's like.
That was on fire. And you collaborated a lot with the band members.
Your first song, Slip Away and Free, were all written.
Yes. Tell me how that came about, where you started writing with the band, the Wonder Love band.
(20:24):
Well, I tell you, we'd be up there and we'd be waiting for Stevie to come and we'd be there.
And, you know, you just start fiddling and playing stuff and just having your own jam sessions.
Sessions and that's how we started writing and doing
things together because we did have the time
you know we'd be there for maybe an hour or so before he would arrive and I
(20:44):
think you know in retrospect he was probably giving us that time to gel and
do things and write you know he was giving us the space to do our own creative
things and so that's how those songs came about you know You know,
Nathan Watts would be playing a lick on the bass and I'd jump in or Suse would
(21:05):
jump in and we started being creative and writing.
That's how that that whole thing together.
But I mean, and you're around the Brecker Brothers. When I got there,
David Sanborn was was his saxophone player.
You know, just so many incredible musicians.
And you'd have to be half dead not to pick up something or to,
(21:27):
you know, start creating.
Creating and if you weren't uh were around all these people and you weren't
creating you need to go to nursing school you were in the wrong place you should
have been there with us incredible and there's there's there's a story i think
i heard that you taught stevie how to drive.
Tell me tell me about stevie wonder and how you you you brought him in a car
(21:51):
and had him drive you somewhere well stevie wanted stevie always wanted to get
in somebody's car and drive.
So I said, okay, Steve, he wanted to drive. I had this little 1968 Rambler,
that's up if he wants to drive i said okay let's go out to the parking lot at the shopping center,
(22:13):
where the and no cars around and so
i put him in the driver we go through steering well you know the car was on
i let him drive but i had my foot on the brake because i told him i said you
know what i love jesus but i'm not trying to see him today so one false move
buddy and i'm stopping And so he did a jerk. I said, that's it.
(22:36):
And I put my foot on the brake. I pressed on the brake.
It got him out of the car. I said, that's enough.
You don't have enough driving lesson
for today. But I mean, he wanted to drive. So of course, I said, OK.
I said, you know. That's amazing. He's good at everything but driving.
That's right. That's right. And so it was fun.
But man, he scared me. My foot, like I said, my foot was over on the brake.
(23:01):
Here you you keep your foot over on the accelerator i got the break i'm in.
It's an incredible story it's incredible time and
to go back to to a point you you just said
which was stevie giving you and the band the time to write your
own music and to play free maybe you
could tell me the story about that and how at a
(23:23):
concert that opened up your world and your solo career
yes well we were
in you know waiting on stevie to come in and the
band was tinking and the girls were we were tinking and
nathan was start to play this bass line next thing i just
started singing i want to be free you know free free free you know and so we
(23:45):
started that and suce green walked up to me and she said here's some lyrics
so we started you know writing Writing the lyrics and we wrote the song there
in a band rehearsal, you know, practice one day.
And so, you know, we were all writing songs and Stevie would let Wonder Love
come out before him and do one song.
(24:06):
And so this particular night, they said, let's do Denise's song. Let's do free.
So I said, oh, OK, we'll do free. So we come out and we do free.
But what we didn't know is that Maurice White, Verdeen White,
Philip Bailey, and their attorney was sitting on the front row.
So after the concert, the attorney came backstage.
(24:29):
He said, oh, my, we loved that song you did. We loved your singing.
He said, who wrote that song?
And I said, I did. I did with some of the band members. That's my song.
And so and then I got it. I said, I got more songs.
I said, I'd love to send you some of my songs. I'm a songwriter.
And I said, you know, me and Philip Bailey have the same vocal range.
(24:51):
So Earth, Wind and Fire can do my songs. And so I said, can I send you songs?
He gave me his card. about a week or so later, I sent him seven songs of that I had written.
And so I didn't hear anything back. Eight months later, I get a call.
Maurice White wants to have a meeting with you. And I'm thrilled.
I'm telling everybody, oh my God, they're going to sing my songs.
(25:14):
I was going to do my music. Oh, thank you, Lord.
And I get in the meeting and Maurice says, well, I just started my own production
company and I just signed a girls group called The Emotions.
And I want to, I'm looking for a female solo artist and I think you're it. And I said, huh?
(25:34):
I'm going to sing my song. Phillips, I'm going to sing my song.
He said, no, we want you to sing them.
I said, I went back. I talked to my mom.
I talked to, they said, my songwriter said, girl, you better take that record deal. I said, okay.
So I did. And of course the rest is history. He did, I mean,
(25:55):
that first project was just incredible, you know, just incredible what Maurice did, what he did.
He took my songs and, you know, they started here.
They were, you know, they were a person, but he came in and put a hat,
a purse, some pearls on her, you know, he took it to the next level and just
(26:17):
incredible. And him with his arranger, Charles Stephanie.
I mean, on one of my songs called If You Don't Believe, we were listening to
the beginning, and Charles Stephanie just went over to the piano,
and he lifted up the top of the piano.
He grabbed a guitar pick and just strummed the pick across the piano strings,
(26:45):
and that's what you hear in the very beginning of the song.
Who does that? that genius geniuses i
mean what he heard when he
went when he listened to my what they heard was
i couldn't believe what what they heard
you know i mean i wrote it i had a certain vision in my mind but what they did
(27:08):
with the music was pure genius like you said yeah and that's just like playing
with stevie at that pinnacle of of their career this is a pinnacle also i think
of earth wind Fire when they're just on, they're on fire.
And the record, if I'm correct, This Is Niecy was recorded around the same time
(27:29):
that Earth, Wind & Fire was doing their Spirit album.
And all the players, most of Earth, Wind & Fire is on the record.
And it sounds, I mean, it just sounds perfect. Was it recorded live with the
band in the studio and you singing vocals?
We recorded live with the band in the studio, you know, I was singing along
(27:49):
with them. Of course, I went back and redid my vocals.
But when we were recording, I was singing along with them.
So there was just this synergy between all of us, you know, as it went ahead.
And I never forget on If You Don't Believe, this incredible,
incredible trumpet player, Oscar Brashear, was in the studio. and so it's.
(28:14):
I came in and did a little something right before the trumpet came in.
I was just kind of warming up. And the look on his face, because I'd been around
a lot of studio musicians.
I was dating a studio musician.
So I'd been around a lot of them, but none of them had ever heard me sing.
And I mean, I will never forget the look on his face when he and I started recording
(28:38):
If You Don't Believe together.
I mean, I have to admit, there's probably only one other time in the studio
where I felt that magic. It was magical.
Wow. It was simply magical, that whole working with Maurice and Charles Stephanie on that project.
(29:00):
Just magical. And I've only experienced that one other time like that.
What was that other time?
The other time was working with Tom Bell. When I did it's not going to ask you about that.
Yeah. Tell me, we'll come back to this. But tell me about Tom Bell, Tom Bell.
And the thing you've worked with some of the greatest producers ever.
(29:22):
You got Tom Bell, you got Charles Stepney, you got Maurice White,
David Foster, and forgetting some as well, I'm sure. George Duke, my baby. George Duke.
Yeah, he's the dude. So tell me, though, Tom Bell and that experience.
Was my melody, is that the one? My Melody, and we also did Niecy.
(29:45):
We had two projects that we worked on together.
Tom Bell was probably, and I would still say with Maury, working with Stevie
Wonder, working with Maurice White and Charles Stephanie,
and then working with Tom Bell, were the three most musical projects that I
(30:10):
ever worked on with the three geniuses of them.
I mean, even with my voice, I will be the first one to admit that everyone does
not know how to produce me.
And I've worked with some well-known producers and they don't have a clue.
But those three situations, they expressly knew exactly what to do with my voice,
(30:36):
exactly what to do with my songs, my music.
It was magic.
I had loved Tom Bell for years.
I'd been listening to him with the stylistics. Of course, you know,
that whole Philly set done with the huge fan of Russell Thompson of the style,
(30:56):
Lissy, because of the, you know, the voice and that stuff.
And him writing with Linda Creed just in Bet You By Golly, wow.
And, you know, people make the world go round. I was a huge, huge Tom Bell fan.
And so I finally got a chance. I said, my manager said, wait a minute,
what about Tom Bell? I said, I love Tom Bell. out.
(31:18):
And like I said, it was just an incredible experience to be with them.
I will never forget, I was recording this song called Silly that I'd written, you know, Silly of Me.
And Tom walked out of the string session and said, I'll be back.
I said, well, wait. I said, okay. So I said, okay, we'll wait for you. He said, no, you do it.
(31:38):
And I said, no, I can't tell the string folks
what to he said Denise you know what to do you know you
know everything he walked out my knees were shaking but
we you know the strings we started recording them and then
actually I said no that's not right you need to do and and so I said oh so he's
(32:00):
he's teaching me to produce now you know by leaving me in the session he knew
what he was doing and I was freaking out in the first because I said no.
No, you, Tom Bell, you tell the strings what to do.
And he would say, no, you, Denise Williams, you tell the strings what to do.
And it was just, the music we made was just magical.
(32:21):
I also found out that.
I was just not, I'm just not a recording artist, you know, singer.
I am an artist. You know, I like the magic of music.
I just don't want to do music. I don't, I've turned down songs that could have been a hit for me.
Saving All My Love For You came to me first.
(32:43):
They sent me Saving All My Love Before Whitney. And I said, well,
I love the song, but I'm not going to sing about a married man and his mistress.
I said, can you change the story, you know, the lyrics and the story?
And they said, no. And I said, I'm so sorry, I can't get it. I can't do it.
(33:03):
So they gave it to Whitney and she had a huge hit with it. And no doubt about it, that was her song.
But I've done that twice where, you know, they've sent me songs that turn out to be hip.
And I said, no, no, because I found out that I'm an artist and I love the magic of music.
I love the message of music.
And Tom Bell further enhanced that and brought that out for me.
(33:31):
The string sessions.
He had oboes on records, on pop records, on hit records.
He had oboes and clarinets. When I was working with other producers,
they weren't using those instruments.
They weren't doing oboes and clarinets and flutes.
Tom Bell used the whole orchestra to create a sound that was expressly his.
(33:56):
Beautiful. And that's amazing that he empowered you with that opportunity to
produce, which served you throughout the rest of your career.
And that was very unique, I'm assuming, at that time also to be a woman who's a songwriter.
You know, all the above. There were only two of us that was really doing it
(34:17):
at that time. The other was my friend, Minnie Riperton.
Minnie was singing and she was writing and helping co-produce some of the stuff along as well.
She and I were the only two that I knew of that were in the studio and really
giving some input on how we wanted the music to go.
Were you on the Perfect Angel album album, Minnie Riperton?
(34:40):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did that.
There's one song that I did with her called Every Time He Comes Around, I Feel Like I'm on Fire.
And I was doing this whole riffing stuff over Minnie.
And they were looking at me like, what? And I said, I don't know.
Stevie said do it. So I'm doing it.
(35:02):
That's an incredible album. incredible and she was an incredible,
musician incredible woman, incredible artist went too
soon I met Maya Rudolph when she
was two years old oh yeah I remember meeting Maya when she was a baby and now
every time I see Maya I think of Minnie and I say Minnie I know you're up there
(35:25):
in heaven I know you're smiling because you're proud of your baby girl she's
incredible but yeah I met her when she was two.
Amazing. And you you did a bunch with an album and obviously the Family Ties
song with Johnny Mathis.
Maybe you can tell us a little about how you got connected in with them originally.
(35:47):
I was on the road with Earth, Wind and Fire. I think I was touring with them at the time.
And so I got a call. We had a break and I went home and my manager said,
Johnny Mathis wants to do a duet. and they're looking at all of the female artists on the label.
And they said, of course, you know, they're talking to Barbra Streisand right
now, you know, but I'm going, your name has come up in the pot.
(36:09):
And I said, oh my God, I would love to do this.
I would love to do this with Johnny Mathis.
So my manager called and said, okay, you're going to do a duet with Johnny and
his producer, Jack Gold.
And so I said, oh my God, I ran and told my mom, I'm going to be working with
Johnny Mathis. And she talking about, girl, I need a new dress for the studio.
(36:31):
And I'm going to get my head. I said, I'm not taking you in there because the
last time I took you with me and introduce you to Marvin Gaye,
you clown so bad. You're not going in the studio with me.
And so I went in with him.
But, you know, the incredible thing is that he was more afraid than I was about
(36:54):
doing this duet because he'd never done a duet before.
This was the first time he was
singing with somebody. And he came in there and he was a nervous wreck.
And he said, you know, you sang with Stevie Wonder and you've done background with people.
So you just tell me what to sing and where, because I don't know what to do.
And I said, oh, we'll be just fine. So he bought this bottle of wine.
(37:18):
We drank the wine. And by the time we got to the end of that wine,
we was just singing, you know, and did the record.
And it was incredible because Jack Gold was an incredible producer.
But it was very difficult because I don't know, I believe he had.
Parkinson's at that time, and he would completely shake, and it was hard to understand him.
(37:40):
But he had the vision in his head about what John and I were going to do.
And it was just an incredible time to work with him as well.
Disability and all, his mind was
still intact, and he knew what to tell us and how he wanted us to do it.
And after that, Johnny and I became very close friends.
(38:04):
I and doing things together. So we got a call and they said,
oh, there's a new TV show coming out called Family Ties.
And they've got a theme song and the writers want you and Johnny to do it. And I said, okay.
So we went in and we did the theme song. You know, I can still hear that theme song today.
Yeah. Oh, you hear it? Yeah. I can go to Family Ties and there we are yodeling. I haven't heard it.
(38:31):
I watched that show religiously as like a seven-year-old, eight-year-old.
I haven't heard the theme song in about 30 years, but I could sing it.
I could sing the entire thing. I know it by heart. Yep.
Iconic. Iconic. It was just incredible. And just to think, you know,
what is it, 40-some-odd years later?
(38:52):
I want to say maybe 50. We still, you can still hear that song. And it sounds fresh.
It doesn't sound dated or anything. We had a lot of fun with that.
Working with Johnny was really a lot, a lot of fun.
That's my buddy. He still sends me flowers on my birthday and stuff like that.
(39:13):
He's just wonderful, a sweetheart, and I love him. With Johnny,
you guys met Prince Charles, now the King Charles, right? Yes, yes, yeah.
Do you mind sharing a little about that experience at that time?
I'm telling you, I wanted to kill him. I wanted to kill him. Because...
(39:33):
And I understand you got another show I want to talk to you about,
because I wanted to tell this story on that show.
Yeah. So Johnny and I, Chris Charles, he loves, you know, Too Much Too Little Too Late.
And we're there at Albers Hall doing the concert.
And so I'm supposed to do the duet with Johnny, like song number six.
(39:54):
So I'm in my dressing room way in the back, all the way down the hall in this
medieval castle, it looks like. And I got my valet and we're dressing and getting ready for my song.
And so, but we hear, you know, we've got the speaker on so we can hear Johnny doing his show.
He does two songs in the next on the third song. He goes into how we too much,
(40:16):
a little too late. And given the introduction, I am not dressed.
I'm not ready. So me and my valet, we go running down the hall.
She's fixing my clothes and patting and I get out there.
We do the duet. and Prince Charles, King Charles gives us a standing ovation.
You know, we feeling good.
We going to meet him afterwards. We going to go through the procession.
(40:38):
And we walking back to my dressing room and I'm patting myself on the back.
Oh yeah, that was, yeah, we killed it. Blah, blah, blah. I get to the dressing room, Scott.
I look in the mirror, my wigs on backwards.
Amazing. And I said, now I have to make a decision.
(40:58):
Decision, for the procession, for the line to meet the prince,
do I turn her around, or do I just leave her the way she is,
I decide, forget it, I'm just gonna leave her the way she is,
I go through the line, I meet Prince Charles,
I want to kill Johnny, okay, I want to kill him, because, you know,
I got the dress, I got the look, and she on backwards.
(41:22):
Incredible. Have you looked to see if there's pictures of it?
That would be funny. I haven't looked.
There's pictures of that, but that would be pretty incredible if there was some pictures.
But yeah, that was it. And shortly thereafter, well, maybe it had to be a couple
of years. There was a popular book.
(41:43):
I don't know if it was a poem. I think it was a book called The Hunting of the Snark.
And so they decided that they wanted to do a a theater piece on the hunting
of the snark and so i was invited to be a part of that john hurt all these big
british artists on there,
(42:05):
and and i was the squirrel and they
had me in six inch heels the guy that
designed it the club my outfit designed
princess diana's wedding gown and i'm
telling you my feet hurt me so bad in those six inch heels so we're going through
(42:26):
the procession line and i'm about to meet the duchess of york i'm about to meet
her and i said i said i would curse you but my corns hurt,
i said my corns hurt in these shoes i said but i'm glad you like the theater.
She understood, I'm guessing.
I'm telling you, my feet hurt me so bad, but it was incredible, the line of artists.
(42:53):
I was the only American artist in the entire theater piece was invited to go
over and do that, but it was...
Pretty amazing. Terrible story. And then another great producer you worked with,
you mentioned, was George Duke.
And with George, you produced probably one of the iconic soundtrack songs of
(43:15):
all time, Let's Hear It for the Boy.
Yeah. What I understand is that when that song was first brought to you and
George, he didn't like it, but you were bullish on it.
So tell me, what was George's hesitation? How did you convince him to ultimately?
Well, we were in the studio and
(43:35):
we had just finished this incredible song that is still on radio today.
Well, a lot of my music is still on radio, but we did a song called Black Butterfly.
And, you know, I don't know if you've heard it, but this lush orchestration, beautiful song.
And we got a call from my manager saying, you know, the record label,
(43:58):
they're doing the soundtrack to this film and they want to know if you're interested
in hearing a song for it, you know? And I said, oh, of course.
And it's going to be in a film, of course. I want to, I'm interested.
And so we go over to Dean Pitchford and Tom Snow's house, the writers,
and they're singing there on the piano, singing the song.
They give us the tape. We leave and I said, oh my God, George,
(44:21):
I love this song. we're going to do this song.
I don't like it. We're not going to do it. I said, well, excuse me.
I said, what did you say? I don't like the song. We're not going to do it.
I said, George, it's going to be in the movie. I don't care.
I don't like it. We're not going to do it.
Man, I was walking in.
And finally, you know, when I grew up, they said that the man is the head.
(44:42):
But the woman is the neck. And I tell people she can turn that head any way
she want to when she put a man to it.
So I stopped talking to George and I went to his wife, Corrine.
And I said, Corrine, I want to do this song. I could feel it.
It's going to be a huge song, this song.
And George said he won't do it with me. And we need to do this song.
(45:04):
She said, girl, don't worry about it. I'll fix it. a week
later we was in the studio doing it i still
don't like it and then when it went what over
15 million sales or something and and he's
on my they did a documentary on me called
unsung and he on there talking i still don't like it i said
(45:24):
well then give me your money i'll take your money
you don't like it just give me that check you got and and
we'll call it even you know so i want
to do that song do you have any memories of
the recording of that song oh yeah being
in the studio yeah he had this incredible studio in his home so we recorded
(45:44):
everything there and in the background i sang the background with two of my
background singers george and shannon merrill and their boy meet their boy meet
girl their artist name and they wrote i want to dance with somebody for Whitney.
They wrote a bunch of songs, my background singers for Whitney,
and they did the background with me. And we laugh about that even to today.
(46:08):
That's incredible. Yeah, George was an incredible musician, jazzed Frank Zappa.
So the programming work he did on the production.
Yes. Amazing. Just amazing. He is by far one of my favorite,
still one of my favorite keyboard players.
Yeah. there is no one that has that I've heard that has the touch that George Duke had.
(46:35):
And like you said, could go from classical music to rock, you know, Frank Zappa.
I was the opening act for him and Stanley Clark, you know, for George and Stanley.
I was the opening. I opened for George Duke and Stanley Clark.
And Scott, I was so scared because Stanley Clark, yeah, Yeah,
he he played with his back to the audience and he was, you know,
(47:00):
not the most friendliest guy.
He wasn't mean or anything, but he just I was scared to go out there.
And I kept wondering myself, how am I on tour with Stanley Clark and George Duke?
But those were I was exposed to it all.
Yeah. So absolutely incredible.
And and that that allowed you I mean, that was amazing. That was it.
(47:25):
And after that, you released your first gospel gospel record. Yes.
Yes. And I won a few Grammys. And was it was it the success of here for the
boy here for the boy that allowed you to do that?
Because you've obviously had gospel in your albums throughout.
But this was the first dedicated effort.
Well, it's like you said, I had been doing gospel on my secular records.
(47:49):
You know, at least one song on each of my secular albums had gospel on it.
So by the time I got to discussing a full project of gospel music,
you know, of course, the Sony, they were like, we spent all this money making
you a star to do this Jesus music.
And I said, listen, I've been doing it all along, you know, and I really want to do this.
(48:13):
So I got the opportunity to do it. It was the same time that Philip Bailey wanted
to do a full gospel project.
So I went to Sparrow and he went to, I forget the other record label that he went to.
We both went to separate gospel labels.
And because I had been doing Christian music all along, that audience knew who I was.
(48:35):
And there was an acceptance of me because I know a lot of other artists did
it. Bob Dylan went and did some gospel.
Great albums. Great albums. And so because we'd been doing it all along,
there was an acceptance of us for our music.
And over, over the last 20 years, it seems like your focus has been, is that right?
(48:59):
Is gospel more on the gospel side versus the pop side?
It's been, it's been mostly on the gospel side. Yes. Yeah. The writing and the recording.
And, you know, that's sometimes that's the way the things turn and go.
That's amazing. And are you still actively writing songs and recording any,
(49:20):
any music? You know, I'm not doing what I should.
You know, I stepped away. I've been doing other things, you know,
working on other other projects, got involved in real estate,
which I love because God ain't making no more land.
And, you know, there was other things that I got involved in.
(49:41):
But now what has happened over the last year, which is funny,
is that I didn't know that the hip hop rap community were big fans of mine.
And so you know my son
who's all into that you know has been
talking to these artists and he
said mom you know he said you didn't know that Snoop Dogg said on one of his
(50:05):
records just like Niecy said it's gonna take a miracle I said Snoop Dogg quoted
me he said yeah and then on Nas's record he said he's talking and he's the man
where you going I'm going to Denise Williams concert You know,
and and I have actually been now in communication with Snoop Dogg and Nas.
(50:26):
I did a thing not too long ago with the artist called Scarface.
And we're getting together to do a new project. They want to do a new project
with me. And I'm saying, really?
So we'll see how it turns out. We're now putting the pieces together where I'm
going to be working with Nas and Scarface on a brand new project.
Amazing. Amazing. I love that. Isn't that amazing? It's like,
(50:49):
really? They want to work with me? I mean. Of course they do.
You know, but I didn't know. You know, I had no idea.
Missy Elliott, you know, produced one of my songs on a young artist.
I had no idea that they were listening to me. But what it was is I think their
folks were listening to me and that's how they got into my music.
(51:12):
And it's just an incredible honor, you know, to see all these artists of this
whole music genre that I wasn't into.
But they all know about me and they all love me, love the music and want to work with me.
So I'm hoping that we'll be in
the studio at least by the end of this year working on this new project.
(51:32):
I love hearing it. Well, your music and your career has just transcended genres, R&B, gospel, soul.
You've done it. So it doesn't surprise me that the influence is wide.
Yeah. Well, it didn't surprise you, but it surprised me. I couldn't believe
it. I say Snoop Dogg likes my music.
(51:52):
And then he sent me his phone number and we talked and it's like, oh, my God. Okay.
Nas came out to Vegas.
Let's go out to dinner. So now we're hanging out. It's like very interesting to see how...
How you can impress people in the impression. For me,
(52:13):
I wanted to make sure that the impression that I made through my music and even
through my life was positive because so many young girls were listening to me,
young women listening to me.
I remember going to a concert one time and I was doing a record.
I went to a record store to do a signing and these girls had silly tattooed on their necks.
(52:36):
They had free on their ankles and they had my songs on their hands.
And that's when I said, I have to be careful, the image that I present,
because they're looking at me, they're listening to me and they're taking what I say seriously.
And I'm an influencer. So I have to be right.
(52:57):
And that's when I determined I'm going to watch what I say.
I'm going to watch how I I present myself and it's not pretend. This is just who I am.
I'm just, I'm just being me. I don't have time to pretend to be somebody else.
I liked it being Denise Williams. Is she okay with me?
And even with people that I admired, you know, that I just took the good part,
(53:20):
you know, I took the things that I admired about them and, and I have the same
chance to do, you know, to do that That with people, I'm starting to write.
I have a book out called Things That Grow in the Desert.
And it's the story of my 12-year battle with my son who was a heroin addict.
(53:42):
And he's come out on the other side now. He's three years clean.
So he's writing his story. And I'm writing from the parent codependent story.
Story and how I had, you know, what it took for me as his parent to finally say, no more. I mean...
(54:03):
He was out there in a $40,000 a month program in Malibu with the chef was from Cordon Bleu.
They was getting massages. And I went out there and I saw the place.
I said, well, what do I have to do to come up in here?
You know, but my his story of how it started, my story on how I was a codependent
(54:25):
until I finally said, I'm going to put you in God's hand. And now three years
with him being clean, with his family.
And so I'm excited to write this book with him and his wife, who was also on drugs.
And the fact that, you know, I said, God, I want to write this book,
but I can't until he's on the other side of it.
(54:47):
And now that he's on the other side of it, working at a rehabilitation center,
starting his own sober living homes, and they're doing great.
So I'm writing that book.
And the other book that I've been working on is called Bringing Out the Queen
in You, where I took the year-long beautification process that Esther went through
(55:07):
before the virgins went before the king.
They had to have a beautification process for one year.
So I'm writing a book on that one-year process that they went to become a queen.
So those are the two books on that. Great projects. I'm happy to hear you have
so much going on. Yeah, it's good.
(55:29):
I mean, you know, it ain't over till it's over. Right.
If you have a few more minutes, I have a couple more questions. Yeah.
So I asked my audience if they had any questions for Denise Williams,
and I got a few questions back. Okay. Which I'd like to ask you.
You've met so many amazing people, and I'm going to direct my audience also
to check out your YouTube and your Diva Stories because you have great stories on there.
(55:53):
Thank you. One of the questions was, do you ever have any experience working with or meeting prints?
I did. Chris and I had the same managers. We were, we were managed by Cavallo and Ruffalo.
And so he, you know, I was going into a studio.
He had been in a studio and I was going into the studio on sunset.
(56:15):
And I went in there and there was purple, purple cake and purple drinks in the
refrigerator, a bed in the middle of the studio, purple stuff everywhere.
Everywhere and so he was not in that
room I was supposed to be in that room and then he was coming into the
room down the hall so when he drove
up I said get out of that car you better come clean
(56:38):
up but he was such a sweetheart you know just such a genius there was something
is he was just a genius and the things that he thought of he turned the record
industry around when he started, you know, selling his own product online.
And your ticket to his concert included his music project.
(57:02):
He was just incredible. Incredible.
And just such a sweetheart. Just a sweetheart. Did he clean up the studio for
you and get rid of all the- They cleaned up the studio.
He didn't come out of his car. I was down at the time. I was like,
come out of that limousine.
No, don't worry about it. I said, well, yeah.
(57:23):
So, but he was wonderful and we had occasions to be around each other and,
and just a genius. Yeah. A genius.
Somebody mentioned, and I didn't know this and I find this interesting,
but it's true. Confirming that you, when you were doing some of your background
session work, you worked with the tubes.
I did. And then they asked, they said, well, I heard that the tubes wanted Denise
(57:47):
to join the band. Is that. Yeah.
And they talked to me, but I couldn't see myself with the twos.
They talked to me. I did a song with them called Don't Touch Me There.
They're wild. Yes. It's me. I loved it.
And they they loved me. It was me and Maxine Waters and Julia Waters,
(58:10):
her sister, the famous water sisters that, you know, we're doing all the background.
And they were talking to us, but I said, no.
Well, you were worried before about
going to hell based on whatever you're listening to. I was on my way.
This was taking you. Yeah. Putting you dead center.
That was my ride right there. That's right.
(58:30):
The last question I got for you is, you know, similar to the Prince question.
And the question is, you've been around so many amazing, incredible people who
have interesting stories, fascinating backgrounds, fascinating psyches.
Is there anyone that you would, who's the biggest, I'll say diva that you met?
Does it have to be man, does it have to be woman, man, woman,
(58:52):
diva, and any little anecdote that you could share of experience that and thinking
that's pretty freaking crazy.
You know, I met a lot of them and I think a lot of the singers I didn't understand,
you know, because they would meet me and they would be not very nice.
But after a while, but I think off the top of my head, the biggest diva that
(59:13):
I met was Diana Ross when she and I did the Academy Awards together.
But and so I'd heard all of these things about how she wasn't nice.
So, you know, I had my dukes up in my spirit. Is she talking crazy to me?
Detroit is getting ready to meet Gary, Indiana.
And she was so nice to me. So nice.
(59:35):
We sat, we talked in the green room. She was lovely.
And it was total opposite from what I thought meeting her was going to be.
And I just, to this day, admire her and respect her.
I don't know what she did to other people, but something in her told her to,
she liked me and And we spent time
(59:57):
together in the green room before we performed for the Academy Awards.
Incredible. Oscars. And I want to touch on, this wasn't a question from the
audience, but I'm going to go
with it because you mentioned Nancy Wilson earlier as one of your heroes.
And I know you recorded with her in the late 80s and maybe early 90s.
Tell me about that relationship.
(01:00:19):
Well, you know, in all of my interviews, I would say I'm a big Nancy Wilson
fan. man, I love Nancy Wilson.
She's one of my idols. And so I'd be talking about her. So I got a call from her manager saying, Ms.
Wilson would love to invite you to dinner at her house.
And so she was living out in Pacific Palisades. And I went to her house,
(01:00:41):
had dinner, and she talked to me about makeup, hair, clothes.
And it was just phenomenal to meet someone that you grow up admiring and And
wanting to be like, and here you are in their presence and they're sharing with
you and being kind and being nice.
And I will never forget that as long as I live, how she was just so wonderful to me. Beautiful.
(01:01:07):
Denise, thank you so much for sharing all these amazing stories.
Thank you so much for all the amazing music.
Thank you for listening to the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it, share it, subscribe,
and follow us and check us out at All Day Vinyl on Instagram and YouTube.
Thank you for listening. This is the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl,
and I'm your host, Scott Duddleson.
After you finish this episode, please subscribe, rate, and check us out on Instagram
and YouTube at All Day Vinyl.
Today, I'm excited to speak with a four-time Grammy-winning singer,
songwriter, producer, and member of the Women's Songwriters Hall of Fame.
My guest has recorded a number of iconic songs, including her first R&B hit, Free, in 1976.
(00:23):
Let's hear it for the boy from the Footloose soundtrack and the theme from Family
Ties, which was a duet with Johnny Mathis.
She's had an incredible career, extraordinary life, and I'm excited and pleased
to introduce to you Denise Williams. Hey, Denise.
Hey, lovely. Thank you. I'm a big shot now.
You've always been a big shot. You've been a big shot since the early days.
(00:44):
And let's even start back there.
So you were raised in Gary, Indiana, which you just told me you're also going
back to as an ambassador. fastener.
So tell me, tell me a little about Gary, Indiana in the, when you were growing
up and tell me what you're doing to revitalize it now. And then we'll jump into the story.
I sure will. You know, it's just been tremendous. I grew up in Gary,
(01:07):
Indiana, and I just had a fabulous childhood there.
You know, I remember going out in the street during the autumn and we'd gather
up all the leaves and we'd put potatoes on the end of the stick.
We'd light like this huge bonfire and sit out there and roast our potatoes.
And, you know, just there were on my block growing up, there must've been at least 20 children.
(01:30):
I mean, the wards across the street had 10 kids alone.
So that was half of the population of my block and being outside until,
you know, you have to be inside by the time the street light comes on.
And, you know, my house was the a hangout house.
And I used to be so upset with my mom. Why our house?
(01:51):
You know, all the boys over here, all my brother's friends are here.
She said, no, I like it like that because at least I know where my son is.
And, you know, just going out Halloween and soaping up the windows and walking to school.
It was just a great time to be in Gary, Indiana.
My high school was the only high school that was interracial.
(02:14):
There were Hispanics, white, across the board.
It was just great to be in that environment to prepare us for the world.
I just loved growing up. I think I had the best, best childhood.
Then we were only 30 minutes away from Chicago, Illinois.
(02:35):
So we would go over to the Museum of History and Science and go to Riverview at the park there.
It was just an incredible, incredible childhood and what I remember.
And, you know, over the years, it has suffered a great loss of not being,
you know, managed properly and things done properly.
(02:56):
But now I'm back there and help get this new young mayor into office and with
some incredible ideas. is.
And we are, it's called big building, building and Gary, a beauty and Gary.
And so I was just there this past Saturday, picking up trash.
Every Saturday people are coming out and we're picking up trash off of the streets
(03:19):
and, you know, cleaning up the city.
And yeah, I'm an ambassador. They tell me they're going to name a street after me.
Yeah. And my grandfather's home where I spent the first eight years of my life
is going to be a historical museum down the street from the Jackson five because the Jackson five,
(03:41):
Michael Jackson, they are from Gary,
Indiana and their house that they grew up in is a historical museum as a historical site.
So now my grandfather's house where I grew up is about to be an historical site.
And it's just, it's, it's just all incredible things happening.
That is incredible. So your grandfather lived a few blocks from the Jacksons?
(04:03):
Yes. Wow. Did you ever have any encounter with them when you were younger?
Oh, yeah. I remember meeting Michael. I think Michael was about six years old, maybe five.
And we were at the Masonic Temple. There was a show there with this guy,
Gene Chandler, who was the Duke of Earl. He had a song called The Duke of Earl.
And he was there and they were on the show with him and that was the first time
(04:26):
that I saw Jackson 5, Michael and the Jackson 5 perform. So yeah, we.
That was before they were signed to Motown? That was before they were signed to Motown.
And they had a local record out, little record out called, You're a big boy
now, no more daddy's little boy.
(04:46):
You're a big man now, no more daddy's little boy. And I had my first local record
to come out that was written and produced by Gene Records of the Shy Lights
and Barbara Acklin, who did a song called Love Makes a Woman.
They produced mine. And so we came out at the same time.
And I remember their cousin, who was the drummer, came knocking on my door and
(05:08):
he said, we just signed to Motown and we're moving to California.
What are you going to do? I said, I'm going to school. I'm going to be a nurse.
Even though you had that record, you were going by a different name, right?
My maiden name was Chandler Denise. Yeah.
No, I wanted to be a nurse. I didn't want to sing because I grew up in a very
(05:28):
strict religious environment.
And if I sang the devil's music, I was on my way to hell. And I was trying to
stay off the weenie road, Scott. I didn't want to go to hell.
Wow. Were you singing in churches growing up? Oh, yeah. I used to sing in church all the time.
My grandfather was a pastor. He had about 25 members, 20 members at the most in a little storefront.
(05:54):
And my great uncle was also the bishop of the state of Indiana for the Church
of God and Christ. He had about 70 members.
That was a big church then. And so I was singing in church all the time.
And it's funny. At my grandfather's church, I don't know if you remember this
show called What's Happening?
(06:16):
Yeah. And Ernest Thomas, Rerun and Ernest Thomas.
Ernest Thomas and I went to my grandfather's church and we were the choir,
just the two of us. Wow. Amazing. Yeah.
And so you weren't listening to non-secular music. It was mostly gospel and religious growing up.
Oh, no, I was listening. My mom had a record player. She had an incredible LP
(06:39):
collection, not like the one I see behind you. Oh, my gosh.
But my mom had this incredible LP collection. And I would sneak into her room
after school and listen to Nancy Wilson.
You know, Jackie Gleason had an orchestra. Jackie Gleason Orchestra that did
all the standards, Dakota Staton.
(07:00):
I would listen to all of these artists, Little Jimmy Scott.
Nancy Wilson was my favorite. I wanted to look like her, sing like her,
be like her. And so I was listening.
And then when I was a senior in high school, my math teacher bought a record
store and I asked him for a job after school and he gave me a job after school.
(07:25):
My mom said I could work and I would be sitting there, you know,
spinning the 45s and I'd be singing with him.
I sing with Aretha Franklin and Supremes and all of the Gladys.
And one day he happened to
be in the back where all of the you know product
was where he stacked the product he was in the back and
(07:47):
I was in the front I didn't know he was back there so I started singing and
he came in there he said I didn't know you could sing I said well you would
know that if you came to church on Sundays and so he was the one that went to
Chicago and brought over Ernie Thomas from.
(08:08):
I forget the name of the record label, but anyway, he bought a Eugene Records
and Barbara Aklanova asked me to sing.
I sang and that's how I got my first local record.
But I wasn't going to do it. I wasn't going to hell.
Well, how did how did you get from going to nursing school to I think your first
(08:29):
gig was with Stevie Wonder and Wonder Love. Is that right?
Yes. I had a cousin when we were 14 years old, his grandmother and my grandmother were sisters.
So during the summer, we turned 14, John, his name was John Harris.
He would come and stay one week at his grandmother's house in Gary.
(08:50):
And, oh, he was the finest man I'd ever seen in my life.
He had the process hair and it was like, oh, my God, he was the Billy Dee of my time.
And anyway he comes in
there and so he would say oh I
know Stevie Wonder you know I know Stevie Wonder Stevie
and I are close I said shut up Pinocchio
(09:12):
everybody that lives in Detroit say they know Stevie Wonder you don't know Stevie
Wonder but after him saying that seven years it was him that got me the audition
with Stevie and I got the job as a background singer with Stevie was because
my cousin told me for seven years that he knew Stevie and I didn't believe him.
And you weren't, you weren't planning or were you doing any music prior to that?
(09:35):
Or you just focused on your studies?
I was in school, Scott, I found out that I was not a good student.
That science was kicking my behind.
I said, what? You got to know this to be a nurse, you know?
And so I called him. He called me one day and he said, you know, we're coming into town.
(09:55):
Stevie's performing and I'll get you some tickets. I said, yeah, okay.
And he said, well, what are you doing? I said, I'm not doing well in school.
I got to figure out what to do it myself. myself and that's when
he said well stevie's looking for singers i told him
about you so let me get the audition so no
i was in school but i was i was at purdue university but i was i wasn't wasn't
(10:18):
doing good at all absolutely incredible and so stevie wonder at that time that
was like i mean he had released a number of albums since he was a kid but that
time was music he had I'd probably just put out music of my mind.
And then there's talking book is yes. Amen. Is that right? Yes. Yeah.
And it was just incredible just to watch him, you know, in his creativity.
(10:42):
And actually, that's when I found out that I was a songwriter because I'd been writing poetry.
You know, I'd been writing a lot of poems out through high school.
I'd actually had a poem published about the state of Indiana,
one of my poems won in the state of Indiana and I was in a book.
But when I joined Stevie, that's when I found out that poetry plus music equals
(11:07):
song and started writing.
And so when you joined Stevie, was it for a tour or was it for the recording
of one of those albums, probably Talking Book, I would guess?
No, when I joined Stevie, he was touring. And so I was so excited because they
said, oh, the next concert, my first concert, it's going to be in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
(11:31):
And I'm like, I'm on my way to Philly. Oh, my God, I'm on my way to Philly.
You know, I just heard about Philly.
I'm on my way. We were outside of Philly in this little town called King of Prussia.
And we did this, we did this whole concert thing and it was really great.
But I started with him and he started touring.
(11:51):
And about three months into that tour, we ended up as the opening act for the Rolling Stones.
And so I was on the road with him with the Rolling Stones. I want to ask you
a little about that, because that was a very famous tour, that tour of the United
States. And it was documented.
There was a movie that never came out called Cox's. Oh, did you know about that?
(12:11):
No, I didn't know that they produced a movie on it.
Yeah, so at the time during that tour, there was a documentarian who was there
filming a lot of the backstage and the concerts.
And they put together an edit. And people have seen it. I've not seen it, but it's around.
And the Rolling Stones blocked it from being released because they felt it was too debaucherous.
(12:34):
Because that tour, the backstage stuff showed a lot of debauchery.
Don't ask yeah but what was also in the film which
was incredible from what i've heard and i hope to one day see it
is at the end of the concert stevie would jam with
the rolling stones yeah do so i
want to ask you a little about your about that tour and things you remember
and you know did you were you on some of those jams with the the stones and
(12:59):
what was that experience like you know after after we came had our part you
know the the band and everything we didn't sit in on the jam sessions with Stevie and the Stones.
We knew that they were going on, but especially the background singers,
I don't think any of us sat in with that.
And as far as the debauchery, there was a whole lot of that going on.
(13:20):
I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the Rolling Stones helped me pick up my prayer
life because I was out there praying, help me, Lord, help me, Lord.
You see what they're doing over in that corner? Help me, Lord, help me, Lord.
You know, I mean, it was amazing to see
them had their own doctor out there in case
somebody needed medical treatment you know I
(13:42):
remember one night after a concert in
Chicago we went out to get
on the bus and the police were there trying to disband you know all the fans
that were out there and they were throwing tear gas and we got caught in the
tear gas and I thought I got on the bus for the for our group I ended up at
(14:03):
the what was the Playboy Mansion at some party.
And I was praying, Lord, if you get me out of here, I ain't never coming up
in here again. Please, please, Lord.
Please, Lord. You know I don't belong up in here. And I remember being in a
room and the room was totally black. I don't know how I got there.
And all it had was a fireman's pole in the middle of the room.
(14:23):
And I was calling down and I was saying, can somebody help me?
I'm stuck in this room. I don't know how I got here. can somebody help me and
somebody said go down the pole go down the pole and I was like no I'm not go
down the pole so I eventually went down the pole like I have to remember,
I said, Lord, if you get me out here, I'm never coming to the Playboy Mansion again.
(14:46):
You know, good missionary, good Christian girls don't belong in the Playboy Mansion.
I don't know how I got here. But it was, I'm telling you, there were nights
with the Rolling Stones, but it was just incredible.
I think the thing that I was impressed with the most is how much people loved them, loved the music.
I mean, they were into the music. They would hit the stage. And even with Stevie,
(15:09):
I mean, because now they were being introduced to him, you know,
the world was big and it it was the most incredible.
One of the most incredible moments in my career was to be out there with them.
Incredible. And how did the audience react to Stevie?
Oh, they loved it. Yeah. Loved him. I mean, it was after that that he really his career took off.
(15:31):
Next, you know, he's getting seven Grammys, you know. Yeah, that's some of the
best records ever made is what he read.
And it started, you know, certainly the Rolling Stones played a huge part in that.
You know, Scott, I'm always, what's the word I want, impressed by the people in London.
(15:54):
I mean, you know, we have fans all over the world.
But I tell you, the British fans, they know everything. They had that record
when I was Denise Chandler. They know all your business.
They know from the beginning. They follow you. They're very,
very loyal and very, very much into not only the music, but you as a person, your life.
(16:16):
And it was just incredible to see how even the recording artists in London love
American artists so much.
When you think of, you know, in the early days with Muddy Waters and all those
folks going over to London, they had no idea how popular they were and how much
love, how loved they were until they went over there.
(16:37):
And it's like, oh, my God, you know, America is one thing, but there's a whole
nother world that loves this music. Yeah, there would be no Rolling Stones without
Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry in American music, American blues.
That's right. And what I respect about it is they tell you, you know,
we listen to this person, we listen to that person.
(16:57):
It's, you know, it's just amazing how they gravitate to our music and what they've
learned and the credit that they give to American artists through their music.
So at what point did you start recording Talking Book?
And I'm curious of any memories of those sessions, you going in recording the vocals.
(17:21):
Well, I tell you, we were recording all the time.
We really had no idea what would end up on Stevie's project because we were constantly recording.
I mean, we'd be in the studio. He would be in the studio 24-7 when we weren't traveling.
And so would we you know we'd come in
(17:41):
and he'd play an idea and we said oh yeah
okay we like that and you know we record it so
you know there was x amount of songs that came out on those projects but we
probably recorded triple or quadruple the amount of music that actually ended
up on the project i mean his the creativity is off the chain with him yeah and he he played most of the
(18:07):
instruments himself on these records is right he did he did yep he did in terms
of because he used he's a visionary and on all fronts of those albums or yes
highly enough of them and so when
you're doing these vocals does he have a vision of where he wants wants it to
be or you and the other vocalists coming up with your own vision of it it was
(18:31):
both and a lot of times he knew what he wanted us to sing and he would tell
us and then while he'd be playing or something And we, you know, we'd hum something,
you know, join in and start humming or throw out an idea.
So it was very open. It was him telling us and giving us direction,
but also us creating, you know, what we thought we should be saying and how
(18:51):
it should be said and when it should be said. Yeah, it was very open.
You've mentioned in interviews that Stevie, like you've learned,
you learned a lot from Stevie.
But I didn't really hear specifically what those things are that you did learn.
And what are those lessons, you know, 40 years on, 50 years on that still are
imparted with you from that time working with this genius at a seminal moment in history?
(19:17):
Well, like I said, the thing about Stevie is, too, is that he,
you know, just music just oozed out of him.
And I think us being around, our being around Stevie, it oozed out of us.
You know, I mean, there's so there was so much of a genius and musicality in
that environment until it drew us in and drew things out of us.
(19:40):
You know, things that I wouldn't have thought of singing or things that I hadn't heard before.
I started to hear just because of what he was sending out would make me and
Lonnie and Shirley and the other singers do certain things and the musicians as well.
Well, you know, I was in a band, it was the Brecker Brothers were there when
(20:02):
I first got there. Yeah, a hot band.
A hot band. I've seen the footage and it's like.
That was on fire. And you collaborated a lot with the band members.
Your first song, Slip Away and Free, were all written.
Yes. Tell me how that came about, where you started writing with the band, the Wonder Love band.
(20:24):
Well, I tell you, we'd be up there and we'd be waiting for Stevie to come and we'd be there.
And, you know, you just start fiddling and playing stuff and just having your own jam sessions.
Sessions and that's how we started writing and doing
things together because we did have the time
you know we'd be there for maybe an hour or so before he would arrive and I
(20:44):
think you know in retrospect he was probably giving us that time to gel and
do things and write you know he was giving us the space to do our own creative
things and so that's how those songs came about you know You know,
Nathan Watts would be playing a lick on the bass and I'd jump in or Suse would
(21:05):
jump in and we started being creative and writing.
That's how that that whole thing together.
But I mean, and you're around the Brecker Brothers. When I got there,
David Sanborn was was his saxophone player.
You know, just so many incredible musicians.
And you'd have to be half dead not to pick up something or to,
(21:27):
you know, start creating.
Creating and if you weren't uh were around all these people and you weren't
creating you need to go to nursing school you were in the wrong place you should
have been there with us incredible and there's there's there's a story i think
i heard that you taught stevie how to drive.
Tell me tell me about stevie wonder and how you you you brought him in a car
(21:51):
and had him drive you somewhere well stevie wanted stevie always wanted to get
in somebody's car and drive.
So I said, okay, Steve, he wanted to drive. I had this little 1968 Rambler,
that's up if he wants to drive i said okay let's go out to the parking lot at the shopping center,
(22:13):
where the and no cars around and so
i put him in the driver we go through steering well you know the car was on
i let him drive but i had my foot on the brake because i told him i said you
know what i love jesus but i'm not trying to see him today so one false move
buddy and i'm stopping And so he did a jerk. I said, that's it.
(22:36):
And I put my foot on the brake. I pressed on the brake.
It got him out of the car. I said, that's enough.
You don't have enough driving lesson
for today. But I mean, he wanted to drive. So of course, I said, OK.
I said, you know. That's amazing. He's good at everything but driving.
That's right. That's right. And so it was fun.
But man, he scared me. My foot, like I said, my foot was over on the brake.
(23:01):
Here you you keep your foot over on the accelerator i got the break i'm in.
It's an incredible story it's incredible time and
to go back to to a point you you just said
which was stevie giving you and the band the time to write your
own music and to play free maybe you
could tell me the story about that and how at a
(23:23):
concert that opened up your world and your solo career
yes well we were
in you know waiting on stevie to come in and the
band was tinking and the girls were we were tinking and
nathan was start to play this bass line next thing i just
started singing i want to be free you know free free free you know and so we
(23:45):
started that and suce green walked up to me and she said here's some lyrics
so we started you know writing Writing the lyrics and we wrote the song there
in a band rehearsal, you know, practice one day.
And so, you know, we were all writing songs and Stevie would let Wonder Love
come out before him and do one song.
(24:06):
And so this particular night, they said, let's do Denise's song. Let's do free.
So I said, oh, OK, we'll do free. So we come out and we do free.
But what we didn't know is that Maurice White, Verdeen White,
Philip Bailey, and their attorney was sitting on the front row.
So after the concert, the attorney came backstage.
(24:29):
He said, oh, my, we loved that song you did. We loved your singing.
He said, who wrote that song?
And I said, I did. I did with some of the band members. That's my song.
And so and then I got it. I said, I got more songs.
I said, I'd love to send you some of my songs. I'm a songwriter.
And I said, you know, me and Philip Bailey have the same vocal range.
(24:51):
So Earth, Wind and Fire can do my songs. And so I said, can I send you songs?
He gave me his card. about a week or so later, I sent him seven songs of that I had written.
And so I didn't hear anything back. Eight months later, I get a call.
Maurice White wants to have a meeting with you. And I'm thrilled.
I'm telling everybody, oh my God, they're going to sing my songs.
(25:14):
I was going to do my music. Oh, thank you, Lord.
And I get in the meeting and Maurice says, well, I just started my own production
company and I just signed a girls group called The Emotions.
And I want to, I'm looking for a female solo artist and I think you're it. And I said, huh?
(25:34):
I'm going to sing my song. Phillips, I'm going to sing my song.
He said, no, we want you to sing them.
I said, I went back. I talked to my mom.
I talked to, they said, my songwriter said, girl, you better take that record deal. I said, okay.
So I did. And of course the rest is history. He did, I mean,
(25:55):
that first project was just incredible, you know, just incredible what Maurice did, what he did.
He took my songs and, you know, they started here.
They were, you know, they were a person, but he came in and put a hat,
a purse, some pearls on her, you know, he took it to the next level and just
(26:17):
incredible. And him with his arranger, Charles Stephanie.
I mean, on one of my songs called If You Don't Believe, we were listening to
the beginning, and Charles Stephanie just went over to the piano,
and he lifted up the top of the piano.
He grabbed a guitar pick and just strummed the pick across the piano strings,
(26:45):
and that's what you hear in the very beginning of the song.
Who does that? that genius geniuses i
mean what he heard when he
went when he listened to my what they heard was
i couldn't believe what what they heard
you know i mean i wrote it i had a certain vision in my mind but what they did
(27:08):
with the music was pure genius like you said yeah and that's just like playing
with stevie at that pinnacle of of their career this is a pinnacle also i think
of earth wind Fire when they're just on, they're on fire.
And the record, if I'm correct, This Is Niecy was recorded around the same time
(27:29):
that Earth, Wind & Fire was doing their Spirit album.
And all the players, most of Earth, Wind & Fire is on the record.
And it sounds, I mean, it just sounds perfect. Was it recorded live with the
band in the studio and you singing vocals?
We recorded live with the band in the studio, you know, I was singing along
(27:49):
with them. Of course, I went back and redid my vocals.
But when we were recording, I was singing along with them.
So there was just this synergy between all of us, you know, as it went ahead.
And I never forget on If You Don't Believe, this incredible,
incredible trumpet player, Oscar Brashear, was in the studio. and so it's.
(28:14):
I came in and did a little something right before the trumpet came in.
I was just kind of warming up. And the look on his face, because I'd been around
a lot of studio musicians.
I was dating a studio musician.
So I'd been around a lot of them, but none of them had ever heard me sing.
And I mean, I will never forget the look on his face when he and I started recording
(28:38):
If You Don't Believe together.
I mean, I have to admit, there's probably only one other time in the studio
where I felt that magic. It was magical.
Wow. It was simply magical, that whole working with Maurice and Charles Stephanie on that project.
(29:00):
Just magical. And I've only experienced that one other time like that.
What was that other time?
The other time was working with Tom Bell. When I did it's not going to ask you about that.
Yeah. Tell me, we'll come back to this. But tell me about Tom Bell, Tom Bell.
And the thing you've worked with some of the greatest producers ever.
(29:22):
You got Tom Bell, you got Charles Stepney, you got Maurice White,
David Foster, and forgetting some as well, I'm sure. George Duke, my baby. George Duke.
Yeah, he's the dude. So tell me, though, Tom Bell and that experience.
Was my melody, is that the one? My Melody, and we also did Niecy.
(29:45):
We had two projects that we worked on together.
Tom Bell was probably, and I would still say with Maury, working with Stevie
Wonder, working with Maurice White and Charles Stephanie,
and then working with Tom Bell, were the three most musical projects that I
(30:10):
ever worked on with the three geniuses of them.
I mean, even with my voice, I will be the first one to admit that everyone does
not know how to produce me.
And I've worked with some well-known producers and they don't have a clue.
But those three situations, they expressly knew exactly what to do with my voice,
(30:36):
exactly what to do with my songs, my music.
It was magic.
I had loved Tom Bell for years.
I'd been listening to him with the stylistics. Of course, you know,
that whole Philly set done with the huge fan of Russell Thompson of the style,
(30:56):
Lissy, because of the, you know, the voice and that stuff.
And him writing with Linda Creed just in Bet You By Golly, wow.
And, you know, people make the world go round. I was a huge, huge Tom Bell fan.
And so I finally got a chance. I said, my manager said, wait a minute,
what about Tom Bell? I said, I love Tom Bell. out.
(31:18):
And like I said, it was just an incredible experience to be with them.
I will never forget, I was recording this song called Silly that I'd written, you know, Silly of Me.
And Tom walked out of the string session and said, I'll be back.
I said, well, wait. I said, okay. So I said, okay, we'll wait for you. He said, no, you do it.
(31:38):
And I said, no, I can't tell the string folks
what to he said Denise you know what to do you know you
know everything he walked out my knees were shaking but
we you know the strings we started recording them and then
actually I said no that's not right you need to do and and so I said oh so he's
(32:00):
he's teaching me to produce now you know by leaving me in the session he knew
what he was doing and I was freaking out in the first because I said no.
No, you, Tom Bell, you tell the strings what to do.
And he would say, no, you, Denise Williams, you tell the strings what to do.
And it was just, the music we made was just magical.
(32:21):
I also found out that.
I was just not, I'm just not a recording artist, you know, singer.
I am an artist. You know, I like the magic of music.
I just don't want to do music. I don't, I've turned down songs that could have been a hit for me.
Saving All My Love For You came to me first.
(32:43):
They sent me Saving All My Love Before Whitney. And I said, well,
I love the song, but I'm not going to sing about a married man and his mistress.
I said, can you change the story, you know, the lyrics and the story?
And they said, no. And I said, I'm so sorry, I can't get it. I can't do it.
(33:03):
So they gave it to Whitney and she had a huge hit with it. And no doubt about it, that was her song.
But I've done that twice where, you know, they've sent me songs that turn out to be hip.
And I said, no, no, because I found out that I'm an artist and I love the magic of music.
I love the message of music.
And Tom Bell further enhanced that and brought that out for me.
(33:31):
The string sessions.
He had oboes on records, on pop records, on hit records.
He had oboes and clarinets. When I was working with other producers,
they weren't using those instruments.
They weren't doing oboes and clarinets and flutes.
Tom Bell used the whole orchestra to create a sound that was expressly his.
(33:56):
Beautiful. And that's amazing that he empowered you with that opportunity to
produce, which served you throughout the rest of your career.
And that was very unique, I'm assuming, at that time also to be a woman who's a songwriter.
You know, all the above. There were only two of us that was really doing it
(34:17):
at that time. The other was my friend, Minnie Riperton.
Minnie was singing and she was writing and helping co-produce some of the stuff along as well.
She and I were the only two that I knew of that were in the studio and really
giving some input on how we wanted the music to go.
Were you on the Perfect Angel album album, Minnie Riperton?
(34:40):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did that.
There's one song that I did with her called Every Time He Comes Around, I Feel Like I'm on Fire.
And I was doing this whole riffing stuff over Minnie.
And they were looking at me like, what? And I said, I don't know.
Stevie said do it. So I'm doing it.
(35:02):
That's an incredible album. incredible and she was an incredible,
musician incredible woman, incredible artist went too
soon I met Maya Rudolph when she
was two years old oh yeah I remember meeting Maya when she was a baby and now
every time I see Maya I think of Minnie and I say Minnie I know you're up there
(35:25):
in heaven I know you're smiling because you're proud of your baby girl she's
incredible but yeah I met her when she was two.
Amazing. And you you did a bunch with an album and obviously the Family Ties
song with Johnny Mathis.
Maybe you can tell us a little about how you got connected in with them originally.
(35:47):
I was on the road with Earth, Wind and Fire. I think I was touring with them at the time.
And so I got a call. We had a break and I went home and my manager said,
Johnny Mathis wants to do a duet. and they're looking at all of the female artists on the label.
And they said, of course, you know, they're talking to Barbra Streisand right
now, you know, but I'm going, your name has come up in the pot.
(36:09):
And I said, oh my God, I would love to do this.
I would love to do this with Johnny Mathis.
So my manager called and said, okay, you're going to do a duet with Johnny and
his producer, Jack Gold.
And so I said, oh my God, I ran and told my mom, I'm going to be working with
Johnny Mathis. And she talking about, girl, I need a new dress for the studio.
(36:31):
And I'm going to get my head. I said, I'm not taking you in there because the
last time I took you with me and introduce you to Marvin Gaye,
you clown so bad. You're not going in the studio with me.
And so I went in with him.
But, you know, the incredible thing is that he was more afraid than I was about
(36:54):
doing this duet because he'd never done a duet before.
This was the first time he was
singing with somebody. And he came in there and he was a nervous wreck.
And he said, you know, you sang with Stevie Wonder and you've done background with people.
So you just tell me what to sing and where, because I don't know what to do.
And I said, oh, we'll be just fine. So he bought this bottle of wine.
(37:18):
We drank the wine. And by the time we got to the end of that wine,
we was just singing, you know, and did the record.
And it was incredible because Jack Gold was an incredible producer.
But it was very difficult because I don't know, I believe he had.
Parkinson's at that time, and he would completely shake, and it was hard to understand him.
(37:40):
But he had the vision in his head about what John and I were going to do.
And it was just an incredible time to work with him as well.
Disability and all, his mind was
still intact, and he knew what to tell us and how he wanted us to do it.
And after that, Johnny and I became very close friends.
(38:04):
I and doing things together. So we got a call and they said,
oh, there's a new TV show coming out called Family Ties.
And they've got a theme song and the writers want you and Johnny to do it. And I said, okay.
So we went in and we did the theme song. You know, I can still hear that theme song today.
Yeah. Oh, you hear it? Yeah. I can go to Family Ties and there we are yodeling. I haven't heard it.
(38:31):
I watched that show religiously as like a seven-year-old, eight-year-old.
I haven't heard the theme song in about 30 years, but I could sing it.
I could sing the entire thing. I know it by heart. Yep.
Iconic. Iconic. It was just incredible. And just to think, you know,
what is it, 40-some-odd years later?
(38:52):
I want to say maybe 50. We still, you can still hear that song. And it sounds fresh.
It doesn't sound dated or anything. We had a lot of fun with that.
Working with Johnny was really a lot, a lot of fun.
That's my buddy. He still sends me flowers on my birthday and stuff like that.
(39:13):
He's just wonderful, a sweetheart, and I love him. With Johnny,
you guys met Prince Charles, now the King Charles, right? Yes, yes, yeah.
Do you mind sharing a little about that experience at that time?
I'm telling you, I wanted to kill him. I wanted to kill him. Because...
(39:33):
And I understand you got another show I want to talk to you about,
because I wanted to tell this story on that show.
Yeah. So Johnny and I, Chris Charles, he loves, you know, Too Much Too Little Too Late.
And we're there at Albers Hall doing the concert.
And so I'm supposed to do the duet with Johnny, like song number six.
(39:54):
So I'm in my dressing room way in the back, all the way down the hall in this
medieval castle, it looks like. And I got my valet and we're dressing and getting ready for my song.
And so, but we hear, you know, we've got the speaker on so we can hear Johnny doing his show.
He does two songs in the next on the third song. He goes into how we too much,
(40:16):
a little too late. And given the introduction, I am not dressed.
I'm not ready. So me and my valet, we go running down the hall.
She's fixing my clothes and patting and I get out there.
We do the duet. and Prince Charles, King Charles gives us a standing ovation.
You know, we feeling good.
We going to meet him afterwards. We going to go through the procession.
(40:38):
And we walking back to my dressing room and I'm patting myself on the back.
Oh yeah, that was, yeah, we killed it. Blah, blah, blah. I get to the dressing room, Scott.
I look in the mirror, my wigs on backwards.
Amazing. And I said, now I have to make a decision.
(40:58):
Decision, for the procession, for the line to meet the prince,
do I turn her around, or do I just leave her the way she is,
I decide, forget it, I'm just gonna leave her the way she is,
I go through the line, I meet Prince Charles,
I want to kill Johnny, okay, I want to kill him, because, you know,
I got the dress, I got the look, and she on backwards.
(41:22):
Incredible. Have you looked to see if there's pictures of it?
That would be funny. I haven't looked.
There's pictures of that, but that would be pretty incredible if there was some pictures.
But yeah, that was it. And shortly thereafter, well, maybe it had to be a couple
of years. There was a popular book.
(41:43):
I don't know if it was a poem. I think it was a book called The Hunting of the Snark.
And so they decided that they wanted to do a a theater piece on the hunting
of the snark and so i was invited to be a part of that john hurt all these big
british artists on there,
(42:05):
and and i was the squirrel and they
had me in six inch heels the guy that
designed it the club my outfit designed
princess diana's wedding gown and i'm
telling you my feet hurt me so bad in those six inch heels so we're going through
(42:26):
the procession line and i'm about to meet the duchess of york i'm about to meet
her and i said i said i would curse you but my corns hurt,
i said my corns hurt in these shoes i said but i'm glad you like the theater.
She understood, I'm guessing.
I'm telling you, my feet hurt me so bad, but it was incredible, the line of artists.
(42:53):
I was the only American artist in the entire theater piece was invited to go
over and do that, but it was...
Pretty amazing. Terrible story. And then another great producer you worked with,
you mentioned, was George Duke.
And with George, you produced probably one of the iconic soundtrack songs of
(43:15):
all time, Let's Hear It for the Boy.
Yeah. What I understand is that when that song was first brought to you and
George, he didn't like it, but you were bullish on it.
So tell me, what was George's hesitation? How did you convince him to ultimately?
Well, we were in the studio and
(43:35):
we had just finished this incredible song that is still on radio today.
Well, a lot of my music is still on radio, but we did a song called Black Butterfly.
And, you know, I don't know if you've heard it, but this lush orchestration, beautiful song.
And we got a call from my manager saying, you know, the record label,
(43:58):
they're doing the soundtrack to this film and they want to know if you're interested
in hearing a song for it, you know? And I said, oh, of course.
And it's going to be in a film, of course. I want to, I'm interested.
And so we go over to Dean Pitchford and Tom Snow's house, the writers,
and they're singing there on the piano, singing the song.
They give us the tape. We leave and I said, oh my God, George,
(44:21):
I love this song. we're going to do this song.
I don't like it. We're not going to do it. I said, well, excuse me.
I said, what did you say? I don't like the song. We're not going to do it.
I said, George, it's going to be in the movie. I don't care.
I don't like it. We're not going to do it.
Man, I was walking in.
And finally, you know, when I grew up, they said that the man is the head.
(44:42):
But the woman is the neck. And I tell people she can turn that head any way
she want to when she put a man to it.
So I stopped talking to George and I went to his wife, Corrine.
And I said, Corrine, I want to do this song. I could feel it.
It's going to be a huge song, this song.
And George said he won't do it with me. And we need to do this song.
(45:04):
She said, girl, don't worry about it. I'll fix it. a week
later we was in the studio doing it i still
don't like it and then when it went what over
15 million sales or something and and he's
on my they did a documentary on me called
unsung and he on there talking i still don't like it i said
(45:24):
well then give me your money i'll take your money
you don't like it just give me that check you got and and
we'll call it even you know so i want
to do that song do you have any memories of
the recording of that song oh yeah being
in the studio yeah he had this incredible studio in his home so we recorded
(45:44):
everything there and in the background i sang the background with two of my
background singers george and shannon merrill and their boy meet their boy meet
girl their artist name and they wrote i want to dance with somebody for Whitney.
They wrote a bunch of songs, my background singers for Whitney,
and they did the background with me. And we laugh about that even to today.
(46:08):
That's incredible. Yeah, George was an incredible musician, jazzed Frank Zappa.
So the programming work he did on the production.
Yes. Amazing. Just amazing. He is by far one of my favorite,
still one of my favorite keyboard players.
Yeah. there is no one that has that I've heard that has the touch that George Duke had.
(46:35):
And like you said, could go from classical music to rock, you know, Frank Zappa.
I was the opening act for him and Stanley Clark, you know, for George and Stanley.
I was the opening. I opened for George Duke and Stanley Clark.
And Scott, I was so scared because Stanley Clark, yeah, Yeah,
he he played with his back to the audience and he was, you know,
(47:00):
not the most friendliest guy.
He wasn't mean or anything, but he just I was scared to go out there.
And I kept wondering myself, how am I on tour with Stanley Clark and George Duke?
But those were I was exposed to it all.
Yeah. So absolutely incredible.
And and that that allowed you I mean, that was amazing. That was it.
(47:25):
And after that, you released your first gospel gospel record. Yes.
Yes. And I won a few Grammys. And was it was it the success of here for the
boy here for the boy that allowed you to do that?
Because you've obviously had gospel in your albums throughout.
But this was the first dedicated effort.
Well, it's like you said, I had been doing gospel on my secular records.
(47:49):
You know, at least one song on each of my secular albums had gospel on it.
So by the time I got to discussing a full project of gospel music,
you know, of course, the Sony, they were like, we spent all this money making
you a star to do this Jesus music.
And I said, listen, I've been doing it all along, you know, and I really want to do this.
(48:13):
So I got the opportunity to do it. It was the same time that Philip Bailey wanted
to do a full gospel project.
So I went to Sparrow and he went to, I forget the other record label that he went to.
We both went to separate gospel labels.
And because I had been doing Christian music all along, that audience knew who I was.
(48:35):
And there was an acceptance of me because I know a lot of other artists did
it. Bob Dylan went and did some gospel.
Great albums. Great albums. And so because we'd been doing it all along,
there was an acceptance of us for our music.
And over, over the last 20 years, it seems like your focus has been, is that right?
(48:59):
Is gospel more on the gospel side versus the pop side?
It's been, it's been mostly on the gospel side. Yes. Yeah. The writing and the recording.
And, you know, that's sometimes that's the way the things turn and go.
That's amazing. And are you still actively writing songs and recording any,
(49:20):
any music? You know, I'm not doing what I should.
You know, I stepped away. I've been doing other things, you know,
working on other other projects, got involved in real estate,
which I love because God ain't making no more land.
And, you know, there was other things that I got involved in.
(49:41):
But now what has happened over the last year, which is funny,
is that I didn't know that the hip hop rap community were big fans of mine.
And so you know my son
who's all into that you know has been
talking to these artists and he
said mom you know he said you didn't know that Snoop Dogg said on one of his
(50:05):
records just like Niecy said it's gonna take a miracle I said Snoop Dogg quoted
me he said yeah and then on Nas's record he said he's talking and he's the man
where you going I'm going to Denise Williams concert You know,
and and I have actually been now in communication with Snoop Dogg and Nas.
(50:26):
I did a thing not too long ago with the artist called Scarface.
And we're getting together to do a new project. They want to do a new project
with me. And I'm saying, really?
So we'll see how it turns out. We're now putting the pieces together where I'm
going to be working with Nas and Scarface on a brand new project.
Amazing. Amazing. I love that. Isn't that amazing? It's like,
(50:49):
really? They want to work with me? I mean. Of course they do.
You know, but I didn't know. You know, I had no idea.
Missy Elliott, you know, produced one of my songs on a young artist.
I had no idea that they were listening to me. But what it was is I think their
folks were listening to me and that's how they got into my music.
(51:12):
And it's just an incredible honor, you know, to see all these artists of this
whole music genre that I wasn't into.
But they all know about me and they all love me, love the music and want to work with me.
So I'm hoping that we'll be in
the studio at least by the end of this year working on this new project.
(51:32):
I love hearing it. Well, your music and your career has just transcended genres, R&B, gospel, soul.
You've done it. So it doesn't surprise me that the influence is wide.
Yeah. Well, it didn't surprise you, but it surprised me. I couldn't believe
it. I say Snoop Dogg likes my music.
(51:52):
And then he sent me his phone number and we talked and it's like, oh, my God. Okay.
Nas came out to Vegas.
Let's go out to dinner. So now we're hanging out. It's like very interesting to see how...
How you can impress people in the impression. For me,
(52:13):
I wanted to make sure that the impression that I made through my music and even
through my life was positive because so many young girls were listening to me,
young women listening to me.
I remember going to a concert one time and I was doing a record.
I went to a record store to do a signing and these girls had silly tattooed on their necks.
(52:36):
They had free on their ankles and they had my songs on their hands.
And that's when I said, I have to be careful, the image that I present,
because they're looking at me, they're listening to me and they're taking what I say seriously.
And I'm an influencer. So I have to be right.
(52:57):
And that's when I determined I'm going to watch what I say.
I'm going to watch how I I present myself and it's not pretend. This is just who I am.
I'm just, I'm just being me. I don't have time to pretend to be somebody else.
I liked it being Denise Williams. Is she okay with me?
And even with people that I admired, you know, that I just took the good part,
(53:20):
you know, I took the things that I admired about them and, and I have the same
chance to do, you know, to do that That with people, I'm starting to write.
I have a book out called Things That Grow in the Desert.
And it's the story of my 12-year battle with my son who was a heroin addict.
(53:42):
And he's come out on the other side now. He's three years clean.
So he's writing his story. And I'm writing from the parent codependent story.
Story and how I had, you know, what it took for me as his parent to finally say, no more. I mean...
(54:03):
He was out there in a $40,000 a month program in Malibu with the chef was from Cordon Bleu.
They was getting massages. And I went out there and I saw the place.
I said, well, what do I have to do to come up in here?
You know, but my his story of how it started, my story on how I was a codependent
(54:25):
until I finally said, I'm going to put you in God's hand. And now three years
with him being clean, with his family.
And so I'm excited to write this book with him and his wife, who was also on drugs.
And the fact that, you know, I said, God, I want to write this book,
but I can't until he's on the other side of it.
(54:47):
And now that he's on the other side of it, working at a rehabilitation center,
starting his own sober living homes, and they're doing great.
So I'm writing that book.
And the other book that I've been working on is called Bringing Out the Queen
in You, where I took the year-long beautification process that Esther went through
(55:07):
before the virgins went before the king.
They had to have a beautification process for one year.
So I'm writing a book on that one-year process that they went to become a queen.
So those are the two books on that. Great projects. I'm happy to hear you have
so much going on. Yeah, it's good.
(55:29):
I mean, you know, it ain't over till it's over. Right.
If you have a few more minutes, I have a couple more questions. Yeah.
So I asked my audience if they had any questions for Denise Williams,
and I got a few questions back. Okay. Which I'd like to ask you.
You've met so many amazing people, and I'm going to direct my audience also
to check out your YouTube and your Diva Stories because you have great stories on there.
(55:53):
Thank you. One of the questions was, do you ever have any experience working with or meeting prints?
I did. Chris and I had the same managers. We were, we were managed by Cavallo and Ruffalo.
And so he, you know, I was going into a studio.
He had been in a studio and I was going into the studio on sunset.
(56:15):
And I went in there and there was purple, purple cake and purple drinks in the
refrigerator, a bed in the middle of the studio, purple stuff everywhere.
Everywhere and so he was not in that
room I was supposed to be in that room and then he was coming into the
room down the hall so when he drove
up I said get out of that car you better come clean
(56:38):
up but he was such a sweetheart you know just such a genius there was something
is he was just a genius and the things that he thought of he turned the record
industry around when he started, you know, selling his own product online.
And your ticket to his concert included his music project.
(57:02):
He was just incredible. Incredible.
And just such a sweetheart. Just a sweetheart. Did he clean up the studio for
you and get rid of all the- They cleaned up the studio.
He didn't come out of his car. I was down at the time. I was like,
come out of that limousine.
No, don't worry about it. I said, well, yeah.
(57:23):
So, but he was wonderful and we had occasions to be around each other and,
and just a genius. Yeah. A genius.
Somebody mentioned, and I didn't know this and I find this interesting,
but it's true. Confirming that you, when you were doing some of your background
session work, you worked with the tubes.
I did. And then they asked, they said, well, I heard that the tubes wanted Denise
(57:47):
to join the band. Is that. Yeah.
And they talked to me, but I couldn't see myself with the twos.
They talked to me. I did a song with them called Don't Touch Me There.
They're wild. Yes. It's me. I loved it.
And they they loved me. It was me and Maxine Waters and Julia Waters,
(58:10):
her sister, the famous water sisters that, you know, we're doing all the background.
And they were talking to us, but I said, no.
Well, you were worried before about
going to hell based on whatever you're listening to. I was on my way.
This was taking you. Yeah. Putting you dead center.
That was my ride right there. That's right.
(58:30):
The last question I got for you is, you know, similar to the Prince question.
And the question is, you've been around so many amazing, incredible people who
have interesting stories, fascinating backgrounds, fascinating psyches.
Is there anyone that you would, who's the biggest, I'll say diva that you met?
Does it have to be man, does it have to be woman, man, woman,
(58:52):
diva, and any little anecdote that you could share of experience that and thinking
that's pretty freaking crazy.
You know, I met a lot of them and I think a lot of the singers I didn't understand,
you know, because they would meet me and they would be not very nice.
But after a while, but I think off the top of my head, the biggest diva that
(59:13):
I met was Diana Ross when she and I did the Academy Awards together.
But and so I'd heard all of these things about how she wasn't nice.
So, you know, I had my dukes up in my spirit. Is she talking crazy to me?
Detroit is getting ready to meet Gary, Indiana.
And she was so nice to me. So nice.
(59:35):
We sat, we talked in the green room. She was lovely.
And it was total opposite from what I thought meeting her was going to be.
And I just, to this day, admire her and respect her.
I don't know what she did to other people, but something in her told her to,
she liked me and And we spent time
(59:57):
together in the green room before we performed for the Academy Awards.
Incredible. Oscars. And I want to touch on, this wasn't a question from the
audience, but I'm going to go
with it because you mentioned Nancy Wilson earlier as one of your heroes.
And I know you recorded with her in the late 80s and maybe early 90s.
Tell me about that relationship.
(01:00:19):
Well, you know, in all of my interviews, I would say I'm a big Nancy Wilson
fan. man, I love Nancy Wilson.
She's one of my idols. And so I'd be talking about her. So I got a call from her manager saying, Ms.
Wilson would love to invite you to dinner at her house.
And so she was living out in Pacific Palisades. And I went to her house,
(01:00:41):
had dinner, and she talked to me about makeup, hair, clothes.
And it was just phenomenal to meet someone that you grow up admiring and And
wanting to be like, and here you are in their presence and they're sharing with
you and being kind and being nice.
And I will never forget that as long as I live, how she was just so wonderful to me. Beautiful.
(01:01:07):
Denise, thank you so much for sharing all these amazing stories.
Thank you so much for all the amazing music.
Thank you for listening to the Legends Podcast by All Day Vinyl.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it, share it, subscribe,
and follow us and check us out at All Day Vinyl on Instagram and YouTube.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.