The Director of the Milner Centre for Evolution, Professor Turi King, talks to Jonathan Milner about the origins of his passion for evolution, and his reasons for setting up the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello and welcome, you are listening to a podcast by the Milner Centre for
Evolution at the University of Bath. I'm Professor Turi King, your host,
and today I'm talking to Jonathan Milner, founder of the Milner Centre for Evolution, about his
passion for science and evolution in particular.Jonathan, these days you're a highly successful
(00:24):
businessman. You founded the biotech company Abcam, and you've gone on to become
an entrepreneur and a business leader, but you didn't start out in business, you started out in
genetics. So, tell me about your growing up and, kind of, what led to your interest in that field.
Well, it all started, I suppose, at Portsmouth Grammar School, and there I was really interested
(00:46):
in science. So, I did biology, chemistry, physics at A-level. But biology was a mystery to me until
I had this one lesson from a teacher, Dr Nick Knight, and he said, I'm going to tell you about
evolution. And immediately the whole of what I couldn't understand about biology all clicked.
(01:08):
And I thought, gosh, this is it isn't it; this is really the basis of the whole of biology.
And I started to really love the subject, so I thought, you know, and I'm going to do this. So,
I applied to Bath University, got into Bath University to do applied biology, and then
my fascination for evolution just grew and grew.And then Professor Paul Nurse, when he was right
(01:31):
at the beginning of his career, came and gave a talk about the cell cycle and yeast and how
that was related to the human genes, the homologs that he discovered and got the Nobel Prize for.
So, he inspired me, and I thought, well I'm going to do a Ph.D. And that got me thinking again more
and more about evolution and the whole of my research it just all came back down to
(01:54):
what's going on at an evolutionary level.But then I became worried and a little bit
disillusioned that not only do the public not really understand or pay
much attention to the theory of evolution, but it's also misunderstood within science
as well. And it's not given central place in anything that we do in biological research,
(02:18):
whether that's in medicine or fundamental research into the cell cycle, cancer, etc.,
you name it. So, this is what triggered my love of evolution, which has gone on a whole lifetime.
So that's really interesting cause this was going to be one of my questions, was there something
that, kind of, triggered it, and it sounds like something that was. Do you remember what was in
that lesson? Was it just like a basic lesson about evolution, or was there something that
(02:41):
he was teaching that made you kind of really go, yeah, actually that completely makes sense to me?
Do you know what there was. So, we'd already done genetics, so we had the DNA and the hereditary
thing, but nobody really understood about evolution. And then when Nick was going on about
look, it's very simple, you've just got to have variation, your selection, and your descent into
(03:07):
the next generation. You've only got three things. I thought, oh hang on a minute, this is weird.
But then when it clicked, it went just like that. And Darwin himself said, it's a strange inversion
of logic, which is, you know, how can you get complexity out of simplicity? Well, you can if
you've got those three components and you can put those three components into anything, it doesn't
(03:29):
have to be into biology. You can apply this theory and you will get complexity out of simplicity.
So, Nick sounds like a great guy, just to, kind of,
put it down to those three different components.That's right, and this is why I'm passionate about
making sure that teachers know how to teach it, like Nick taught it, because otherwise I might
not have gone into biology and, you know, missed out on all of that, and that would be horrible.
(03:54):
So, you did applied biology at Bath, so were you already
thinking you want to apply it to something?I'd love to say yes, but the answer's no. It
was just simply I like Bath and I liked what I saw when I went to visit, and I thought
it would be fun. And I loved the subject, the lecturers were great, it was a fabulous course
(04:16):
and I just really, really enjoyed it.What did you do for your Ph.D. then?
So, one of the placements was at the Leicester Biocentre, and then I decided to do my Ph.D.
in fungal genetics. So, I accepted a position at University of Leicester working on a very obscure
bacterium called Erwinia amylovora. So, my Ph.D. was called a molecular genetic analysis of Erwinia
(04:43):
amylovora, which is a pathogen which causes fire blight in pear and apple trees. Sounds awful,
but actually for me it was just really interesting, and I loved every minute of it.
And then didn't you go back to Bath and do your postdoc at Bath? Did I read that right?
Yeah, one I wanted to go back to Bath, but two, there was a really interesting project came up,
(05:07):
and that was a collaboration between Professor Tony Ricci's laboratory at Bath University
with Pfizer down in Sandwich in Kent and this was looking at antibody engineering,
and I was fascinated by antibody engineering. Again, it all comes back down to evolution,
that's how the immune system works, through a process of evolution.
So, I got fascinated by antibodies and started this project and yeah,
(05:30):
had a wonderful time between Bath University and the Pfizer site down at Sandwich,
which sadly they've closed now, but anyway.So, for anyone who doesn't know what an
antibody is, talk us through what antibodies are.So, antibodies are one of the most incredible
molecules in the world and we would be dead very quickly if we didn't have them circulating
inside us, because their primary purpose is to root out pathogens and mark them for
(05:56):
destruction from our immune system. And that's happening every second of the day, all day long.
So, without antibodies, we would be really dead, so they’re incredibly important
molecules. And then the wonderful thing was the scientists found out, in the seventies,
how to make these antibodies, called monoclonal antibodies, where you can actually take one type
(06:21):
of antibody, with one specific sequence, that locks onto one specific target,
and that's completely revolutionised the whole of research through drug discovery,
to therapeutics. So, there's quite a few antibody drugs now. So yeah, they are incredible molecules.
So how did antibodies start to become a part of your
(06:42):
scientific research, and then later your career?Yeah. So, then my next project, I ended up in the
mid-nineties taking a postdoc at the University of Cambridge in Professor Tony Kouzarides’s
laboratory. And we were looking at the breast cancer genes that are newly been discovered.
So, these are BRCA1 and BRCA2 which are involved with hereditary breast cancer. So,
(07:06):
the genes have been discovered, but genes make proteins and proteins have got to function within
our cells. So, we are made up of trillions of cells and inside of each of those cells,
the little components that actually make everything work are called proteins. And
they buzz around doing incredible things and they're encoded by the genes. So, we had the gene,
(07:28):
but we didn't know what the protein was doing.So, you can't see these proteins because,
you know, trying to get inside a cell and seeing what's going on, it's just not possible. But what
you can do is you can say, okay, well I've got this protein and I want to see what it's doing
and how it's behaving inside a cell. How can I do that? Well, I can make an antibody to it,
(07:50):
I can label it and then I can track it through the cell. I can see what's happening,
what it's interacting with, what are the pathways, what is its function. So, we started to do that,
but fundamental to it, was the first thing to do was to say, hey, make antibodies. Once you've got
antibodies, then you can do all of this incredible research, but without the antibodies you can't.
(08:12):
So, you're using antibodies and you're trying to understand the genetic basis of breast cancer
and what's going on there. Did you think you were just going to keep going and be like an academic
scientist, because you're a hugely successful businessman, were you already thinking that
way or did you think, nope for the rest of my life I am going to be an academic scientist?
It was definitely not a oh, you know, I'm going to be a businessman. It was a day in the lab,
(08:39):
and I can remember it quite well, actually, and I would describe it as an entrepreneurial seizure.
And this was because I was getting so frustrated that I couldn't find the right antibodies.
So, you can actually buy these antibodies off the shelf in a little tube, and you can put
them into your research. So, I was ordering these antibodies for my breast cancer protein
(09:00):
to try and get my breast cancer research to move forward. And these antibodies were not very good.
And then just one day I said, this is silly. It was in 1998, and I turned to my colleague
Luke Hughes-Davies, and I said, Luke, I said, this is crazy, you know, why don't we start a company
where we can produce much better antibodies than these? And once I got this entrepreneurial
(09:22):
seizure in my head, I couldn't let go of it.And then I discovered this website that nobody
was using and nobody had heard of, where you could go on to this website and I could order a book
and the book would come and be delivered to your house, and okay it might take two or three days,
but I didn't care, I didn't want to trek into town. So, I was one of the first users of Amazon,
(09:44):
and I thought, hang on a minute, this is crazy. I should be able to just go to a website,
select the exact antibody that I want for my research, and then have that delivered and
I can start using it immediately, without all of these problems that I've been experiencing.
And so that was the genesis of the idea.And it's been a hugely successful business.
(10:06):
You have helped scientists around the world, doing their research, by developing this,
and it's put you in this wonderful position because you are now able to use the money that
you've got to fund passions and growth in other companies. So, what are you doing at the moment?
(10:27):
What are the things that are really exciting you?Well, I'm doing a lot in drug discovery and a
lot in rare disease. So, I work with a wonderful company called Healx, which repurposes drugs for
rare disease. And that's terrifically exciting. And I've got various other projects in loads of
different companies, all mainly in life sciences, across antibodies, drug discovery, you name it.
(10:53):
But really, you're right. Anything that really interests me, I'm in this
incredible position where I can, you know, put my resources behind that company and help them
with also my experience. And I love it. Yeah.I was going to say that must be so wonderful to
go, actually, this looks really interesting, and I'd like to be able to support that. And
you must get to hear quite early on about some of the new ideas that are coming out.
(11:18):
Yeah, it's wonderful because I don't have to try that hard because ideas come to me. So, a few
years ago, three wonderful guys, just done their PhD’s, came out of Cambridge, they came to me and
said, we've got this great idea for a company.So, it started off synthesizing DNA, they pivoted
to make a machine which can synthesize proteins in a way where you can select the best conditions
(11:46):
for making proteins. And that sounds, you know, well, what do you want to do that for? Well,
we've already discussed that proteins are the fundamental building blocks of
the cell. And if you're going to do any drug discovery, any sort of research,
you've got to be able to isolate your protein. And to do that, you've got to be able to express it.
Anyway, they've got this machine, company’s called Nuclera, I'll give it a plug,
(12:06):
and they're wonderful guys and they're launching a machine, the eProtein platform,
and it can do 192 reactions at one time, in two days, which would take, previously,
me two years to do, at least, you know, on one little cassette, on one little machine.
So, things like that, you know, is all coming through. And it's the most exciting time to be
(12:28):
involved with biology, with all these wonderful things that you can do now.
So, what prompted you to start the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath?
Well, that came out of a conversation with Professor Laurence Hurst, and we were talking
about our passion for evolution. And then I think I just said, well wouldn't it be wonderful to
do this? And Lawrence said, yes, let's do it. And then it all snowballed from there.
(12:53):
So, what would you like the Milner Centre to do? How would you like it to evolve?
Well, I mentioned that my frustration throughout my entire career, ever since my Ph.D. really,
has been that there's this misunderstanding of evolution, and it's not applied enough in
(13:14):
a way that we can really solve problems that the world faces. And COVID is one of them.
We could have solved COVID a lot quicker if just we understood what was going on, on
an evolutionary level. And we did eventually, but it was frustrating to see how long it was taking.
So, this really prompted me to think, well, what should the Centre for Evolution
(13:36):
at Bath be doing? And for me, there's two things. One is to be at the cutting edge of
evolutionary research and then secondly, to be able to communicate that research to the
wider public, and especially to the younger generation. So even kids at primary school,
they can grasp the concept of evolution if it's taught properly.
(13:57):
So yeah, this is my vision that the Centre for Evolution should be, you know,
one of the best places in the world for evolutionary outreach, thinking,
research, but especially on the educational side.Jonathan, thank you so much for talking with me.
This was a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath.
(14:21):
I'm Turi King and thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts or comments on this
or any other episodes, please contact us via our X channel @MilnerCentre.
For more information about the Milner Centre for Evolution, you can visit our website.
Hello and welcome, you are listening to a podcast by the Milner Centre for
Evolution at the University of Bath. I'm Professor Turi King, your host,
and today I'm talking to Jonathan Milner, founder of the Milner Centre for Evolution, about his
passion for science and evolution in particular.Jonathan, these days you're a highly successful
(00:24):
businessman. You founded the biotech company Abcam, and you've gone on to become
an entrepreneur and a business leader, but you didn't start out in business, you started out in
genetics. So, tell me about your growing up and, kind of, what led to your interest in that field.
Well, it all started, I suppose, at Portsmouth Grammar School, and there I was really interested
(00:46):
in science. So, I did biology, chemistry, physics at A-level. But biology was a mystery to me until
I had this one lesson from a teacher, Dr Nick Knight, and he said, I'm going to tell you about
evolution. And immediately the whole of what I couldn't understand about biology all clicked.
(01:08):
And I thought, gosh, this is it isn't it; this is really the basis of the whole of biology.
And I started to really love the subject, so I thought, you know, and I'm going to do this. So,
I applied to Bath University, got into Bath University to do applied biology, and then
my fascination for evolution just grew and grew.And then Professor Paul Nurse, when he was right
(01:31):
at the beginning of his career, came and gave a talk about the cell cycle and yeast and how
that was related to the human genes, the homologs that he discovered and got the Nobel Prize for.
So, he inspired me, and I thought, well I'm going to do a Ph.D. And that got me thinking again more
and more about evolution and the whole of my research it just all came back down to
(01:54):
what's going on at an evolutionary level.But then I became worried and a little bit
disillusioned that not only do the public not really understand or pay
much attention to the theory of evolution, but it's also misunderstood within science
as well. And it's not given central place in anything that we do in biological research,
(02:18):
whether that's in medicine or fundamental research into the cell cycle, cancer, etc.,
you name it. So, this is what triggered my love of evolution, which has gone on a whole lifetime.
So that's really interesting cause this was going to be one of my questions, was there something
that, kind of, triggered it, and it sounds like something that was. Do you remember what was in
that lesson? Was it just like a basic lesson about evolution, or was there something that
(02:41):
he was teaching that made you kind of really go, yeah, actually that completely makes sense to me?
Do you know what there was. So, we'd already done genetics, so we had the DNA and the hereditary
thing, but nobody really understood about evolution. And then when Nick was going on about
look, it's very simple, you've just got to have variation, your selection, and your descent into
(03:07):
the next generation. You've only got three things. I thought, oh hang on a minute, this is weird.
But then when it clicked, it went just like that. And Darwin himself said, it's a strange inversion
of logic, which is, you know, how can you get complexity out of simplicity? Well, you can if
you've got those three components and you can put those three components into anything, it doesn't
(03:29):
have to be into biology. You can apply this theory and you will get complexity out of simplicity.
So, Nick sounds like a great guy, just to, kind of,
put it down to those three different components.That's right, and this is why I'm passionate about
making sure that teachers know how to teach it, like Nick taught it, because otherwise I might
not have gone into biology and, you know, missed out on all of that, and that would be horrible.
(03:54):
So, you did applied biology at Bath, so were you already
thinking you want to apply it to something?I'd love to say yes, but the answer's no. It
was just simply I like Bath and I liked what I saw when I went to visit, and I thought
it would be fun. And I loved the subject, the lecturers were great, it was a fabulous course
(04:16):
and I just really, really enjoyed it.What did you do for your Ph.D. then?
So, one of the placements was at the Leicester Biocentre, and then I decided to do my Ph.D.
in fungal genetics. So, I accepted a position at University of Leicester working on a very obscure
bacterium called Erwinia amylovora. So, my Ph.D. was called a molecular genetic analysis of Erwinia
(04:43):
amylovora, which is a pathogen which causes fire blight in pear and apple trees. Sounds awful,
but actually for me it was just really interesting, and I loved every minute of it.
And then didn't you go back to Bath and do your postdoc at Bath? Did I read that right?
Yeah, one I wanted to go back to Bath, but two, there was a really interesting project came up,
(05:07):
and that was a collaboration between Professor Tony Ricci's laboratory at Bath University
with Pfizer down in Sandwich in Kent and this was looking at antibody engineering,
and I was fascinated by antibody engineering. Again, it all comes back down to evolution,
that's how the immune system works, through a process of evolution.
So, I got fascinated by antibodies and started this project and yeah,
(05:30):
had a wonderful time between Bath University and the Pfizer site down at Sandwich,
which sadly they've closed now, but anyway.So, for anyone who doesn't know what an
antibody is, talk us through what antibodies are.So, antibodies are one of the most incredible
molecules in the world and we would be dead very quickly if we didn't have them circulating
inside us, because their primary purpose is to root out pathogens and mark them for
(05:56):
destruction from our immune system. And that's happening every second of the day, all day long.
So, without antibodies, we would be really dead, so they’re incredibly important
molecules. And then the wonderful thing was the scientists found out, in the seventies,
how to make these antibodies, called monoclonal antibodies, where you can actually take one type
(06:21):
of antibody, with one specific sequence, that locks onto one specific target,
and that's completely revolutionised the whole of research through drug discovery,
to therapeutics. So, there's quite a few antibody drugs now. So yeah, they are incredible molecules.
So how did antibodies start to become a part of your
(06:42):
scientific research, and then later your career?Yeah. So, then my next project, I ended up in the
mid-nineties taking a postdoc at the University of Cambridge in Professor Tony Kouzarides’s
laboratory. And we were looking at the breast cancer genes that are newly been discovered.
So, these are BRCA1 and BRCA2 which are involved with hereditary breast cancer. So,
(07:06):
the genes have been discovered, but genes make proteins and proteins have got to function within
our cells. So, we are made up of trillions of cells and inside of each of those cells,
the little components that actually make everything work are called proteins. And
they buzz around doing incredible things and they're encoded by the genes. So, we had the gene,
(07:28):
but we didn't know what the protein was doing.So, you can't see these proteins because,
you know, trying to get inside a cell and seeing what's going on, it's just not possible. But what
you can do is you can say, okay, well I've got this protein and I want to see what it's doing
and how it's behaving inside a cell. How can I do that? Well, I can make an antibody to it,
(07:50):
I can label it and then I can track it through the cell. I can see what's happening,
what it's interacting with, what are the pathways, what is its function. So, we started to do that,
but fundamental to it, was the first thing to do was to say, hey, make antibodies. Once you've got
antibodies, then you can do all of this incredible research, but without the antibodies you can't.
(08:12):
So, you're using antibodies and you're trying to understand the genetic basis of breast cancer
and what's going on there. Did you think you were just going to keep going and be like an academic
scientist, because you're a hugely successful businessman, were you already thinking that
way or did you think, nope for the rest of my life I am going to be an academic scientist?
It was definitely not a oh, you know, I'm going to be a businessman. It was a day in the lab,
(08:39):
and I can remember it quite well, actually, and I would describe it as an entrepreneurial seizure.
And this was because I was getting so frustrated that I couldn't find the right antibodies.
So, you can actually buy these antibodies off the shelf in a little tube, and you can put
them into your research. So, I was ordering these antibodies for my breast cancer protein
(09:00):
to try and get my breast cancer research to move forward. And these antibodies were not very good.
And then just one day I said, this is silly. It was in 1998, and I turned to my colleague
Luke Hughes-Davies, and I said, Luke, I said, this is crazy, you know, why don't we start a company
where we can produce much better antibodies than these? And once I got this entrepreneurial
(09:22):
seizure in my head, I couldn't let go of it.And then I discovered this website that nobody
was using and nobody had heard of, where you could go on to this website and I could order a book
and the book would come and be delivered to your house, and okay it might take two or three days,
but I didn't care, I didn't want to trek into town. So, I was one of the first users of Amazon,
(09:44):
and I thought, hang on a minute, this is crazy. I should be able to just go to a website,
select the exact antibody that I want for my research, and then have that delivered and
I can start using it immediately, without all of these problems that I've been experiencing.
And so that was the genesis of the idea.And it's been a hugely successful business.
(10:06):
You have helped scientists around the world, doing their research, by developing this,
and it's put you in this wonderful position because you are now able to use the money that
you've got to fund passions and growth in other companies. So, what are you doing at the moment?
(10:27):
What are the things that are really exciting you?Well, I'm doing a lot in drug discovery and a
lot in rare disease. So, I work with a wonderful company called Healx, which repurposes drugs for
rare disease. And that's terrifically exciting. And I've got various other projects in loads of
different companies, all mainly in life sciences, across antibodies, drug discovery, you name it.
(10:53):
But really, you're right. Anything that really interests me, I'm in this
incredible position where I can, you know, put my resources behind that company and help them
with also my experience. And I love it. Yeah.I was going to say that must be so wonderful to
go, actually, this looks really interesting, and I'd like to be able to support that. And
you must get to hear quite early on about some of the new ideas that are coming out.
(11:18):
Yeah, it's wonderful because I don't have to try that hard because ideas come to me. So, a few
years ago, three wonderful guys, just done their PhD’s, came out of Cambridge, they came to me and
said, we've got this great idea for a company.So, it started off synthesizing DNA, they pivoted
to make a machine which can synthesize proteins in a way where you can select the best conditions
(11:46):
for making proteins. And that sounds, you know, well, what do you want to do that for? Well,
we've already discussed that proteins are the fundamental building blocks of
the cell. And if you're going to do any drug discovery, any sort of research,
you've got to be able to isolate your protein. And to do that, you've got to be able to express it.
Anyway, they've got this machine, company’s called Nuclera, I'll give it a plug,
(12:06):
and they're wonderful guys and they're launching a machine, the eProtein platform,
and it can do 192 reactions at one time, in two days, which would take, previously,
me two years to do, at least, you know, on one little cassette, on one little machine.
So, things like that, you know, is all coming through. And it's the most exciting time to be
(12:28):
involved with biology, with all these wonderful things that you can do now.
So, what prompted you to start the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath?
Well, that came out of a conversation with Professor Laurence Hurst, and we were talking
about our passion for evolution. And then I think I just said, well wouldn't it be wonderful to
do this? And Lawrence said, yes, let's do it. And then it all snowballed from there.
(12:53):
So, what would you like the Milner Centre to do? How would you like it to evolve?
Well, I mentioned that my frustration throughout my entire career, ever since my Ph.D. really,
has been that there's this misunderstanding of evolution, and it's not applied enough in
(13:14):
a way that we can really solve problems that the world faces. And COVID is one of them.
We could have solved COVID a lot quicker if just we understood what was going on, on
an evolutionary level. And we did eventually, but it was frustrating to see how long it was taking.
So, this really prompted me to think, well, what should the Centre for Evolution
(13:36):
at Bath be doing? And for me, there's two things. One is to be at the cutting edge of
evolutionary research and then secondly, to be able to communicate that research to the
wider public, and especially to the younger generation. So even kids at primary school,
they can grasp the concept of evolution if it's taught properly.
(13:57):
So yeah, this is my vision that the Centre for Evolution should be, you know,
one of the best places in the world for evolutionary outreach, thinking,
research, but especially on the educational side.Jonathan, thank you so much for talking with me.
This was a podcast by the Milner Centre for Evolution at the University of Bath.
(14:21):
I'm Turi King and thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts or comments on this
or any other episodes, please contact us via our X channel @MilnerCentre.
For more information about the Milner Centre for Evolution, you can visit our website.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.