November 5, 2025 • 38 mins
Divorce isn’t just a legal process — it’s an emotional earthquake. And when you’re a mom trying to protect your kids (especially boys, who are more emotional than you think), the pressure can feel next-level.
In this week’s episode of the Mothers of Boys Survival Guide, I sat down with Lisa Johnson, a certified domestic-violence advocate and co-founder of Been There, Got Out. After a decade fighting through a high-conflict divorce, she now helps parents stay grounded, protect their kids, and navigate toxic co-parenting dynamics without losing their sanity.
We talk about:
- Early red flags of a high-conflict divorce
- How to protect your kids from emotional manipulation
- The 10-minute connection rule every mom should know
- Supporting boys who internalize stress and anger
- Smart communication & documentation strategies
- Finding the right support — for you and your kids
This episode isn’t doom-and-gloom. It’s truth, strength, and real tools for moms who are fighting to stay strong and raise resilient boys through messy chapters of life. You are not alone in this. 💛
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Surviving Divorce and Protecting Your Kids: What Moms Need to Know.
Welcome to the Mother is a Boy Survival Guide. I'm your host, Suzy Shaw, author,
boy mom, and your partner in navigating all the beautiful chaos that comes with raising sons.
Today, we're gonna tackle one of the toughest transitions a family can face, which is divorce.
(00:22):
I have held the hands of countless friends and family as they have navigated the upheaval
that comes with divorcing their spouse while trying to protect their children. Every year,
more than 600,000 couples in the U.S. legally divorce, and over a million children are affected.
(00:43):
Behind those numbers are moms and dads doing their best to protect their kids, hold it together,
and somehow stay sane through the storm.In this episode, we'll talk about how to
recognize a high-conflict situation, how to protect your boys from emotional fallout,
(01:04):
and how to stay grounded and confident through it all. Our guest understands divorce all too well.
Lisa Johnson, co-founder of Been There, Got Out, turned her own experience with
a high-conflict divorce into a mission to help others survive and rebuild. She's an advocate,
(01:26):
author, and coach, and helps parents manage conflict, communicate safely,
and prioritize their kids' emotional health, even when co-parenting isn't easy. Welcome, Lisa.
Thank you so much for having me and letting me talk about this topic.
(01:46):
It is a topic which I think these days everybody knows somebody that has gone
through a high-conflict divorce. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got into
coaching and your book and website beentheregotout.com?
(02:07):
Yeah, so I actually used to be a high school English teacher and a writing teacher, and
my background is also as a professional writer, and I stopped teaching when my first child,
my son was born, and I loved teaching, but I ended up loving figuring out a career that
I could do from home, and so I was lucky enough to be able to stay home with him,
(02:30):
and that's when I really began my writing career. I thought I would take off teaching
for a year and then go back, but ended up, like I said, loving staying with him,
and then by the time it was time to go back, I was in court all the time.
I spent 10 years in the legal system trying to divorce and deal with, unfortunately, his father,
(02:50):
and so I realized that I can't go back to teaching in person the way I used to, and then COVID hit.
My son's almost 26, so this is two decades plus later, and I have learned so much along the
way. I always say I got my best education in the trenches of family court, that I thought, maybe I
(03:13):
can use the wisdom and knowledge and experience that I never wanted to turn into something.
At that point, my partner Chris and I, who are a couple in real life now, it's been more than
10 and a half years, and he went through his own crazy situation, which we didn't realize we were
both dealing with when we met, we thought, let's do something, and so we really started Been There,
(03:36):
Got Out, which actually began as a book idea. We really just started honing in on
toxic relationships, and then we niched down even more to something called legal abuse,
which is my specialty with those 10 years in court, and then it's just exploded since then.
So, as I mentioned, I have been on the sidelines of some really ugly divorces,
(03:59):
and it's just heartbreaking to see the devastation that happens to the families.
What do you recommend right at the beginning? Because some people don't realize they're in a
high-conflict situation, they're a little bit in denial mode, so what are the red flags to watch
out for, and initial steps that should be taken?Okay, first, I should note, as a state-certified
(04:24):
domestic violence advocate, that one in two people in abusive relationships don't even
realize exactly what's going on, because we often think that abuse is physical violence,
that people are experiencing emotional abuse, and often they've been in the relationship for
a while, so they don't even realize that this is not normal, because things get worse over time.
(04:46):
Sometimes, talk about the analogy of a frog in a pot of boiling water, that if a frog just jumped
into boiling water, it would jump right out, but that's not how these relationships happen. It's
that it's good in the beginning, and then slowly things get worse, and you don't even realize how
bad it is until often you want to get out.So just know that from the beginning,
(05:06):
and when somebody starts a divorce, it's generally high-conflict if it's not amicable,
because everyone's angry and everyone's upset, and of course you never plan to break up. So it could
be hard to tell if something is high-conflict, but usually, after four to six months, people
start calming down, the bills are getting really high, and they think, “all right,
(05:28):
let's start putting aside a bit of our grievances, and focus on the kids and moving forward.
That is not what happens in high-conflict divorce, because one of the indicators of
high-conflict divorce is anger that does not subside. And I can say that even years after my ex
and I have been apart, he filed for a $4 million lawsuit against us 9 years later for defamation,
(05:55):
because it's like, I still need to keep this fight going. Anger that does not subside,
no matter how many years pass, this is an indicator of high-conflict divorce.
Another thing to watch for is if somebody has a personality disorder and or an active addiction.
I'm not talking about someone in recovery who has the proper judgment, but when someone has
(06:20):
a personality disorder or an active addiction, their judgment is impaired, and so they can't
even make good decisions for themselves. And they're often so overtaken by their emotion
that they do things without thinking about the consequences, like spending tons of money,
ruining relationships with their children, and again, not thinking about the future.
(06:41):
So those are a couple of indicators of high-conflict divorce, and there's more, but
I figure there's probably a lot we're gonna talk about, so I don't wanna go through everything.
Right, and when you talk about addiction, I mean, the obvious ones are alcohol and drugs, but I've
seen people that are addicted to sex and sexual… just the whole craziness and the accessibility
(07:06):
of platforms these days, I feel like, has accelerated that kind of addiction as well.
For sure, we see a lot of that in our community.So, how can a parent protect their kid from being
pulled into the middle of the conflict? Because that seems to be what happens.
One of the most common things we see actually in our world of dealing with legal abuse,
(07:29):
which is when a person is using the legal system to basically wear the other person down and bleed
them dry financially, is a parent who attempts to turn the children against the other parent,
and we'll get into that in a little while, because that's the topic of our current book and course.
So you can't prevent your ex from doing it. You have to kind of plan for it and expect it.
(07:52):
And so there's a lot of ways they do it, and actually this often starts while you're still
in the relationship, sometimes referred to as grooming. And it's almost like creating
a situation where the child will have loyalty to that other parent instead of you. So some of
the signs of what we call pre-alienation, which is coined from a friend of mine, an alienation
(08:14):
coach named Charlie McCready, is when you're still in the relationship, your spouse will
mock you to the kids, undermine your authority.Like, I think back to when my son was really
little, and I would discipline him. I'm not talking about punishment, just talking about
discipline. Like he did something wrong and I'd say, okay, you need to like sit out for a while.
And his father would come in and interrupt and say, no, Izzy, you don't have to listen
(08:37):
to mom. You can just take it back. So he would basically undermine my ability to parent because
he made our son feel like that he was the main parent and that I was just cranky. So
that's an example of something like that.But in terms of what you can do about it,
I mean, because everyone gets scared. They see it happening. They're like, oh no, oh no,
(09:00):
my kids are gonna turn against me because my ex is saying all these terrible things.
One thing that has worked really well, and this is not like a quick fix,
but it's something called the 10-minute rule. And I got this idea from interviewing a child
psychiatrist named Dr. Olayera-Akinboye. And she said that more than anything of any age,
kids want your attention and they want control. So if as soon as you can, you start spending, if
(09:29):
you're able to be in contact with them, 10 minutes a day where you get on their level and you say,
“what are you interested in? Teach me how to do this or show me what you're up to. I don't know
how to do this video game, even if you don't like video games. Like, can you show me how to do it?
I don't know how to cook this dish and you're so good at it. Can you teach me how to do something?”
So spending those 10 minutes with your child really gives your kid an opportunity to bond
(09:53):
with you. So it makes them less likely to be, to fall prey to alienating behaviors
when the parent tries to turn them against you because you're establishing your own memories
with them and it helps them develop critical thinking skills. So when they hear, oh, let's
say mom's this terrible person, I'll be like, wait a second, mom and I have, we have these rituals,
we do these things together, like I'm less likely to believe it as a child because I know my mom,
(10:19):
my mom spends time with me, she gives me her attention, so I know it's not real.
So I'd say that's probably the best long-term plan is to make sure you spend whatever time you can,
again, not long vacations with them, but just a few minutes a day where you're
checking in with them and letting them lead.And I would think that would be easier than
(10:42):
ever now that we have FaceTime and video… you don't have to physically be in the same place
with them to still build this relationship and check in on them if you're physically separated.
I mean, there's so many things you can do, like sometimes parents who don't live near each other,
(11:03):
near the child, like they'll watch a show together and talk about it together, and
they'll each eat popcorn. I mean, there's so many things that you can do to still bond with kids.
So one of the things I've noticed is that there's a significant difference in the maturity age of
the kids and how they process what's going on.And this is not exactly the same thing, but we
(11:34):
went to a nursery school that was a co-op and a psychologist came in to talk to us after 9-11.
And one of the things that he said was, you don't have to worry about your little kids because your
little kids aren't going to understand what's going on right now in this tragedy. And your
older kids who are teenagers in high school, they should be emotionally mature enough to be able
(12:02):
to process what's going on. But the real danger age is that preteen, that teen time when they're
probably in middle school, when the children are old enough to understand something is going on,
but not emotionally mature enough to process it. So, can you give us some advice for navigating
(12:26):
communication with your child based on how old they are during that process?
Yeah, so first of all, the best thing you can do in general in these situations is to have yourself
as regulated as possible. No matter what age your kids are, you need to make sure that you have
support to get through this because, whatever age you're parenting, they are going to feel
(12:52):
emotionally responsible for you. They are tuning into your energy and your anxiety and your fear.
So the more support you can get on your own, completely separate from parenting,
the better it's going to be for everybody.So as long as your kids of any age know like mom's
okay, like I've got it, you have your friends, I have my friends. Like this might be a hard time
(13:14):
for us, but you don't need to take care of me. Just still like do your routines and go out with
your friends and show them that you're able to have fun. That's going to make everybody better.
With little kids, I think what we do when we're in these really, really stressful situations is
we forget that we have a different filter through how we are processing what's going
(13:35):
on. And sometimes it feels like because my world is consumed by this crazy divorce,
my kids are feeling the same thing. They're not. Little kids, like you said, they are
doing their own thing. So I think it's better to not really, I think it's better in general
not to talk about it. If they come to you, then you deal with it. Little kids can be distracted
(13:57):
a little more easily. So I would say listen to whatever their concerns are and then be like,
okay, whatever, listen and then distract. Got it, let's take care of your feelings. But now, hey,
we've got this birthday party to go to or let's go get some, something, something to distract.
Because they're not really interested. They just need to know I'm okay, my parents are going to
(14:21):
comfort me and now I can go on with my life.Teenagers, similar thing, it's probably a lot
harder for them because they are much more aware, but they also have their social life and their
friends, and they're not really interested. They don't wanna hear about what's going on with you.
The pre-teens, I imagine like they also don't want to hear, but anytime a kid of any age comes
(14:44):
to you with anger and aggression, which is super common in these situations, you want to make sure
that you don't try to explain things to them from your perspective because they don't care. Again,
you're the adult and they're the child. So if anything, you have to not make yourself center
stage. Like they're the ones suffering. And to basically be brave, which can be hard and just
(15:09):
sit there and be quiet and say, tell me more. Like I'm here for you. I just want to hear what
you have to say and try not to judge, try not to interfere, but realize they need to be able
to get it out even though they're going to be angry at you and heartbroken. It is so hard to
be a witness of that because as mothers, we want to fix. We don't want our kids to ever suffer.
(15:32):
Realize you can't make it stop. And so instead of acting like things are fine and it's gonna
be okay, just be like, you know what? This is really, really hard. Like I hear you and I am
here to help you or whatever you need from me, I'm here for you. And that's really it,
but not try to fix things.That empathy, I think,
(15:52):
is really powerful. And in a calm, as calm and controlled as you could be, as you've mentioned.
Right. Yeah, they are. So that I mentioned the word before, self-regulation. Like you
need to be as regulated because there's a term called co-regulation. It's you are helping your
child process an experience. So you can do that well if you are self-regulated and if you're not
(16:18):
regulated, then how are you supposed to help your child understand how to respond in this situation?
Boys in particular often internalize stress and anger and can be explosive in their communication.
I know. Right?And so I would imagine when you were going
(16:44):
through your divorce, that might've been something that happened with you. So how can moms recognize
when their son is really struggling and maybe get in front of it before it just totally blows up?
Yeah, I mean, I think any child struggles with divorce and that's why courts are likely to give
(17:05):
therapy if anyone asked for it, because it's hard for anybody high-conflict or not. It's hard for
kids to now be going back and forth between two homes, which is usually happening. Their
lives are completely disrupted and we know that in general, human beings need routine and consistency
and stability. So it's really, really hard.So I would say ahead of time, just assume
(17:27):
that your kid probably needs therapy and in terms of a therapist, think about the kind
of person that your kid really likes. Like think about their favorite, you can even ask them like
about their favorite teacher or their favorite coach or their favorite camp counselor and why
they like this person and what that person did to make them do well, succeed or show up
(17:49):
for something. And then think about that as you're choosing a therapist for your child.
Like I know with my son, I have a daughter and a son. When I was picking the therapist for my son,
I found this guy, his name was Mark. He was a former Hells Angel. He had dropped out of
high school, but he was brilliant. He had had like two master's degrees and he'd come into
(18:10):
the therapy place on his big motorbike as this huge guy in leather jacket and he and my son
would go in and talk about anything except the divorce for a while. And I was kind of like,
when are they going to like get to dealing with my son's feelings? They would talk about
politics and debate and whatever else and the therapist said, don't worry because I need to
(18:31):
first establish a rapport with your son and then we'll get to the stuff and just be really patient.
My son also had moments where he was really, really aggressive and he was bigger than me. And
I remember initially being frightened and feeling like I got to get him out of here because I can't
deal with him. And unfortunately my ex-husband pretty much abandoned the kids. So they were
(18:52):
dealing with that, and I couldn't just send him to his father. So I remember one time Izzy
had like this huge explosive thing in his room and he's flinging things around and I was like,
I can't deal with it. And we called Mark and Mark said, Lisa, now is the time that you cannot say
I'm going to send you to like Kids in Crisis or one of these resources in town that's supposed
(19:16):
to help because his father's already left him and he's testing you. He needs you now to be
really strong. So you have to do the opposite of what you feel like doing. You have to stay
strong and let it pass and recognize this as him finally letting out these feelings that he's kept
inside for so long as we've been talking about debate and politics and everything except that.
(19:38):
And that was really, really helpful to me to hear that. So it goes back to like finding support for
your kids that's appropriate. And again, the kind of person that they could establish a good
rapport with. And there's a lot of other things dealing with aggressive kids. There's some really
good programs out there, but again, they need to have at least one adult that they can talk
(20:00):
to. Their friends can't fix things, but to have one trusted adult, even if it's not you, just
somebody they can talk to to work through this is going to be really, really helpful in the end.
That's great advice. And so in my book, I called my boys Ernest and Exuberance and both of them
(20:26):
went through counseling for one thing or another at some points in their life. And we called it
“mental floss.” I mean, we tried to sort of make it just, and you just gotta clean out some of
the gook in there. And we also called everybody a “coach.” So they had organizational coaches, they
(20:49):
had life coaches, which was the counseling, the mental counseling person. And that just to help
them, I think, be okay with it because coach was something they were familiar with and happy with.
Yep, that's something, especially boys, they don't wanna feel like something's
wrong with me if you say you have to go to therapy. So we say the same thing as like,
(21:12):
let's get coaches and people who are thinking forward in terms of resolution and kind of rah,
rah, rah, rather than like, oh no, you need to sit on a couch and it's all your trauma.
Yeah, and we also had a very cool male and that was somebody that was very relatable
to them. So how can moms help their sons process what's going on when the father is not modeling
(21:40):
very good behavior and treating the mom, and might be speaking negatively to the children,
might be acting like they're a youngster again, right? So what's a
mom to do to help their son during and their daughters, their kids during that process?
(22:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the things I said so far, like having that time together with them,
making sure you're validating their feelings and listening. And I think
also making them feel like they have some agency in their lives and some choices.
So the ex is going to be bad mouthing, I would say just for that in general, not to try to tell
(22:26):
them the truth about it, because kids think of their parents as authorities. Both authorities
and authorities don't lie. So if one parent is telling me something about the other and then
the other saying the opposite, like let's say like my ex is talking badly about me. If I just said,
that's not true, this is what the truth is. I'm doing the same thing that my ex
(22:47):
is. I'm telling my kids what to believe.So you need to make kids feel like you
respect their judgment. So if they say, you know, dad's saying all these terrible things about you,
you can kind of throw it back to them and say, has that been your experience with me? Where are
you getting, what do you think? So really practicing that critical thinking muscle.
(23:09):
One of the things that I always did with my mantra in my head really with my kids, especially when
they were in that, they want to pick a fight with you mode. And I would advise friends if
the same thing, but I call it Don't Bite, right.So somebody's fishing and they're fly fishing and
(23:33):
they're throwing barbs at you. It's your choice to bite. You could just let it bounce off your chest
and then they move on because they're not getting the reaction that they wanted. And I think that,
you know, goes with kids as well as, you know, possibly the divorcing spouse.
Lisa Johnson (23:55):
Yeah, and so as you're saying that I'm thinking of the term baiting, they're baiting
you, they want you to do something. So one thing that I remember trying before the divorce, just
being silly with my kids is like, if they get mad at me, I'd be like, what do you wanna do? Like,
if you could, like, what would you do? Like rip my arms off, tie me to a car and like drive really
fast, like getting ridiculously disgusting. And then they'd laugh and then it was just done.
(24:20):
Right, so shifting the conversation to legal aspects, you know, and with years going on
for 10 years, you probably almost got a law degree yourself during that period.
My case was published as case law.Good grief, that's not necessarily
something to be proud of.No, I am really proud of that.
(24:42):
Thank you for getting through it, right? Yeah. So, you know, based on your experience
and what you've been doing ever since, what should moms know about documenting
interactions and using the court system wisely because it can get very costly very quickly?
Oh, tell me about it. Yeah, I always say I save well over a million dollars, you know,
(25:03):
representing myself for 7 ½ years through about 100 court appearances. Okay, so I think it's
really important first, and this is a lot of what we teach with our clients, is to understand what's
called the best interest factors, as well as another thing we call the alienation factors.
That's basically what the court really thinks is important when they're thinking about custody.
(25:24):
And then whenever you're communicating with your ex, you're only communicating about things that
actually matter because, as we just use that word baiting, people like our exes and our
clients' exes will do whatever they can to still try to engage our attention and use the kids to
do it. So often they'll be, when people meet us, there's all this communication going back
(25:45):
and forth about bedtimes and diet and allergies that have never been diagnosed and just on and on,
and what are you gonna do about this and that and things that like the court doesn't care about.
And so realizing the things that don't matter can be such a relief to people because they're like,
oh, I don't actually have to get into a written conversation about that.
(26:07):
So one thing that we teach more than anything with everyone is something we call strategic
communication. And we have a whole course on it called How to Communicate with Your
Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind. But it's making sure that you are,
and this turns into documentation for a case, but where you're communicating with your ex,
you're always writing to them, but you are writing for an invisible audience. And so the
(26:32):
goal is you're presenting as the most reasonable, best co-parent ever, but at the same time, you are
documenting your ex's patterns of behavior over time, the impact it has on your children and on
your relationship with your children because like I said, they're going try to create what's called
loyalty conflicts and make them discard you.So understanding those best interest factors
(26:56):
or custody factors, that's going to be the things that you communicate about, and that turns into
documentation for your case. But again, it's important to, you know, and this is too much to
get into here, but to really understand what matters and what doesn't so that you're not
constantly engaging because that's really what your ex wants is just to keep this thing going.
(27:18):
Well, and that it's just so depleting too, which is part of the strategy, I think.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.So I had some friends do something called
nesting during their divorce where, you know, the kids stay in the family home and the parents are
moving in and out. And it just seemed incredibly complicated to me and that nobody really felt
(27:42):
secure. And it was just in this constant state of flux and more expensive because now you have three
different, you know, locations that you're trying to manage. What do you recommend if you have,
you know, younger kids about this co-parenting, and what's your impression of nesting?
(28:02):
So nesting, so keep in mind that Chris and I, we only deal with high-conflict cases. Nesting
for amicable couples like might work, that's fine. If you wanna do that, the kids get to
stay in the same home. They don't have to go back and forth. The parents go in and out and that
could work. For our clients, absolutely never.There's a safety issue. A lot of our clients'
(28:24):
exes are surveilling them. They're stalking them. Sometimes they're planting things that
could end up being part of some weird court records, like drugs or guns or who knows what.
So we don't trust our exes to be in the same living space as us. So we never want nesting.
(28:45):
Now it's really hard because divorce is so expensive, especially in America,
to have two homes. But you cannot continue indefinitely to share a home with someone that
you're trying to get away from because also you're exposing your child to an unhealthy
relationship dynamic. And living like that, your kids think that this is not only normal,
(29:08):
but that it's the best that they can do and that's what they're going to be drawn toward. So I really
don't recommend nesting for any kind of domestic violence situation, even if there hasn't been
physical abuse. It's just not good for the kids to see that. And it is, like you said, it's kind
of unsustainable. It's like, how long are we going to keep pretending that things are okay?
(29:31):
Right, right. And I agree. You do think when you're doing these sort of things,
you have to think about, what is it that I'm teaching my child? And limits are a good thing.
So boundaries are healthy.Lisa Johnson: Yeah, yeah.
(29:52):
So what advice would you give a mom who's wrapping up the divorce and trying to reinvent herself and
heal? And do you have any resources?I think, again,
it goes back to that self-regulation.Number one, we don't want you doing what's
called doom scrolling. So a lot of times people in these cases, they're so worried and they're like,
(30:13):
what should I do? And they'll look at social media and they'll see all these awful articles
about terrible things that happen to children. Or they'll see the opposite of like, everyone else
is doing great except for me and they feel bad either way. So we don't want you doomscrolling.
I think it's really great to find a community of people that are experiencing what you're
dealing with that can kind of go along with you.Now, I've been to normal divorce groups when I
(30:40):
was first at the beginning of my own divorce and it was really, really tricky because my case was
so different and everyone else was talking about settling down and becoming friends. That was never
gonna happen for me. So I felt even more isolated.So Chris and I actually have a support group.
It's called the Weekly Legal Abuse Support Group. And we do a very unusual thing where
(31:01):
we blend our male and female clients together because we know that abuse is a human issue,
not a gender issue. And since all of our clients are going through very high-conflict situations,
it's great to have the people we call our “babies,” those are at the very beginning of the
process. And then our “grizzled veterans” who have been in it for a while, especially post-judgment,
(31:21):
who can kind of guide them along, offer emotional support. A lot of our clients
are very well-educated professionals and they are awesome at researching. So they're always bringing
things to the group, like resources to share.And I think being in a group that also is more
resolution focused and not on just keeping you in a trauma loop and feeling like, oh, you deserve
(31:44):
this, that, and the other thing, but it's more like, how can our family get through this as best
we can is way more helpful. So finding support groups like ours, which I'm very, very proud of.
And there are different groups around. Some are in person. Some domestic violence centers
have free support groups. I would make sure that whatever group you get involved with,
(32:06):
you feel really comfortable with whoever's running it and the people in it, because
sometimes people go to support groups and they end up feeling worse. You don't want
to subject yourself to something like that.Right. And there is affordable counseling out
there as well, which is often associated, I think, with those domestic violence kind of groups.
(32:29):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, our domestic violence center has free counseling for victims and
has free counseling for kids. It's just amazing. And I wish I had found them sooner than I did.
So I understand you've got a new book coming out in 2026. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
LYeah. It's called When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You. And we actually
(32:50):
have a course that's like 20 plus hours long on it. And so we have a podcast. It's called
the Been There, Got Out podcast and YouTube channel. And I have interviewed professionals
extensively for the last couple of years on this topic. Because, like I said, it is just
baked into legal abuse and post-separation abuse.And so the book is really a culmination of what
(33:13):
you can do when your ex is doing this in the legal system and out of the legal system. And I counted,
and I think I have at least 52 professionals whose advice I've kind of woven into
how to handle this situation. So the book is coming out in January 2026. I am so excited.
We're so passionate about this topic. And I love doing lots of content on it.
(33:37):
I mean, it's a heartbreaking topic, but it affects between 20 to 22 million adults in just America
and Canada alone. And so in our own legal abuse support group, alienation comes up all the time.
There's always this group of like 5 or 6 women at the end, because we turn our cameras off for the,
(33:58):
Chris and I, for the last 15 minutes and let them talk. And that seems to be such a major topic.
So I'm really excited because I'm already teaching some of the content from our book. We just got
off like a double header session with one of our clients about how to effectively use storytelling.
And she's a mother of a boy, she has two boys actually, of how to try to get them back and how
(34:22):
to persuade a judge that even though a child who might be close to aging out, legally you
don't have that much time, but this is the sort of thing that affects a child's ability to form
relationships for the rest of their lives. And if there's a parent that is trying to take away one
of their primary attachment figures, even though that other parent is the victim, but the child is
(34:47):
really the victim because it affects everything, their ability to trust, and they can have all
kinds of mental health issues later on. So it's so important to recognize the signs as early as
possible and to stop it from getting worse.Suzy Shaw: Well, we wish you all the best
with the unit support and a success with your new book. And so keep us in the loop, we'll be happy
(35:11):
to promote it when it's out.Thank you.
At the end of each one of our podcasts, we ask guests to give a motto or something
they can say to themselves when they're going through, which today is divorce.
And we've already sort of talked about some, I mean, I talked about Don't Bite, like that's sort
(35:35):
of something you could say to yourself, but what would you suggest to your clients and to parents?
So I think of one of my favorite quotes that I got from an interview with a bodyguard named
Steven Dana, who also started a nonprofit called Protection From Abuse. And he said,
“an abuser's greatest tool is fear.” And I think that that is what keeps people in a
(36:01):
position where they feel paralyzed and scared and like they can't move forward and they can't heal.
So I think it's so important to educate yourself and to understand that this is something that
your ex is doing to keep you from standing up to them. And often, at least in our clients' cases,
(36:22):
they're bullies. And once you start learning how to turn the power dynamic around, which
you have complete control over, because most of the time that fear isn't real,
it's what you think. It's like they're still squatting between your ears,
we like to say. Once you can get them out of your head, everything changes. Getting
rid of that fear is just a world of difference and there's ways that you can learn how to do
(36:46):
that. So just know that. Like it feels like the most terrifying thing and that everything's out
of your control. There's a lot more things you can control than you think you can.
That's such a powerful thing to model for your children too, right? Resilience,
resistance, self-respect. I mean, it's all sort of wrapped up in that.
(37:07):
If you would like more information about Lisa and her partner, Chris's book, Been There, Got Out,
Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances,
or her new book, which is called When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You, please visit their
website, beentheregotout.com. We'll also link to their website on the mothersofboys.life website.
(37:37):
And thank you for joining us today. Follow The MOB (Mothers of Boys) on Facebook, Instagram,
YouTube, and your favorite podcast platform. Be kind to yourself, moms, and have a great week.
Surviving Divorce and Protecting Your Kids: What Moms Need to Know.
Welcome to the Mother is a Boy Survival Guide. I'm your host, Suzy Shaw, author,
boy mom, and your partner in navigating all the beautiful chaos that comes with raising sons.
Today, we're gonna tackle one of the toughest transitions a family can face, which is divorce.
(00:22):
I have held the hands of countless friends and family as they have navigated the upheaval
that comes with divorcing their spouse while trying to protect their children. Every year,
more than 600,000 couples in the U.S. legally divorce, and over a million children are affected.
(00:43):
Behind those numbers are moms and dads doing their best to protect their kids, hold it together,
and somehow stay sane through the storm.In this episode, we'll talk about how to
recognize a high-conflict situation, how to protect your boys from emotional fallout,
(01:04):
and how to stay grounded and confident through it all. Our guest understands divorce all too well.
Lisa Johnson, co-founder of Been There, Got Out, turned her own experience with
a high-conflict divorce into a mission to help others survive and rebuild. She's an advocate,
(01:26):
author, and coach, and helps parents manage conflict, communicate safely,
and prioritize their kids' emotional health, even when co-parenting isn't easy. Welcome, Lisa.
Thank you so much for having me and letting me talk about this topic.
(01:46):
It is a topic which I think these days everybody knows somebody that has gone
through a high-conflict divorce. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got into
coaching and your book and website beentheregotout.com?
(02:07):
Yeah, so I actually used to be a high school English teacher and a writing teacher, and
my background is also as a professional writer, and I stopped teaching when my first child,
my son was born, and I loved teaching, but I ended up loving figuring out a career that
I could do from home, and so I was lucky enough to be able to stay home with him,
(02:30):
and that's when I really began my writing career. I thought I would take off teaching
for a year and then go back, but ended up, like I said, loving staying with him,
and then by the time it was time to go back, I was in court all the time.
I spent 10 years in the legal system trying to divorce and deal with, unfortunately, his father,
(02:50):
and so I realized that I can't go back to teaching in person the way I used to, and then COVID hit.
My son's almost 26, so this is two decades plus later, and I have learned so much along the
way. I always say I got my best education in the trenches of family court, that I thought, maybe I
(03:13):
can use the wisdom and knowledge and experience that I never wanted to turn into something.
At that point, my partner Chris and I, who are a couple in real life now, it's been more than
10 and a half years, and he went through his own crazy situation, which we didn't realize we were
both dealing with when we met, we thought, let's do something, and so we really started Been There,
(03:36):
Got Out, which actually began as a book idea. We really just started honing in on
toxic relationships, and then we niched down even more to something called legal abuse,
which is my specialty with those 10 years in court, and then it's just exploded since then.
So, as I mentioned, I have been on the sidelines of some really ugly divorces,
(03:59):
and it's just heartbreaking to see the devastation that happens to the families.
What do you recommend right at the beginning? Because some people don't realize they're in a
high-conflict situation, they're a little bit in denial mode, so what are the red flags to watch
out for, and initial steps that should be taken?Okay, first, I should note, as a state-certified
(04:24):
domestic violence advocate, that one in two people in abusive relationships don't even
realize exactly what's going on, because we often think that abuse is physical violence,
that people are experiencing emotional abuse, and often they've been in the relationship for
a while, so they don't even realize that this is not normal, because things get worse over time.
(04:46):
Sometimes, talk about the analogy of a frog in a pot of boiling water, that if a frog just jumped
into boiling water, it would jump right out, but that's not how these relationships happen. It's
that it's good in the beginning, and then slowly things get worse, and you don't even realize how
bad it is until often you want to get out.So just know that from the beginning,
(05:06):
and when somebody starts a divorce, it's generally high-conflict if it's not amicable,
because everyone's angry and everyone's upset, and of course you never plan to break up. So it could
be hard to tell if something is high-conflict, but usually, after four to six months, people
start calming down, the bills are getting really high, and they think, “all right,
(05:28):
let's start putting aside a bit of our grievances, and focus on the kids and moving forward.
That is not what happens in high-conflict divorce, because one of the indicators of
high-conflict divorce is anger that does not subside. And I can say that even years after my ex
and I have been apart, he filed for a $4 million lawsuit against us 9 years later for defamation,
(05:55):
because it's like, I still need to keep this fight going. Anger that does not subside,
no matter how many years pass, this is an indicator of high-conflict divorce.
Another thing to watch for is if somebody has a personality disorder and or an active addiction.
I'm not talking about someone in recovery who has the proper judgment, but when someone has
(06:20):
a personality disorder or an active addiction, their judgment is impaired, and so they can't
even make good decisions for themselves. And they're often so overtaken by their emotion
that they do things without thinking about the consequences, like spending tons of money,
ruining relationships with their children, and again, not thinking about the future.
(06:41):
So those are a couple of indicators of high-conflict divorce, and there's more, but
I figure there's probably a lot we're gonna talk about, so I don't wanna go through everything.
Right, and when you talk about addiction, I mean, the obvious ones are alcohol and drugs, but I've
seen people that are addicted to sex and sexual… just the whole craziness and the accessibility
(07:06):
of platforms these days, I feel like, has accelerated that kind of addiction as well.
For sure, we see a lot of that in our community.So, how can a parent protect their kid from being
pulled into the middle of the conflict? Because that seems to be what happens.
One of the most common things we see actually in our world of dealing with legal abuse,
(07:29):
which is when a person is using the legal system to basically wear the other person down and bleed
them dry financially, is a parent who attempts to turn the children against the other parent,
and we'll get into that in a little while, because that's the topic of our current book and course.
So you can't prevent your ex from doing it. You have to kind of plan for it and expect it.
(07:52):
And so there's a lot of ways they do it, and actually this often starts while you're still
in the relationship, sometimes referred to as grooming. And it's almost like creating
a situation where the child will have loyalty to that other parent instead of you. So some of
the signs of what we call pre-alienation, which is coined from a friend of mine, an alienation
(08:14):
coach named Charlie McCready, is when you're still in the relationship, your spouse will
mock you to the kids, undermine your authority.Like, I think back to when my son was really
little, and I would discipline him. I'm not talking about punishment, just talking about
discipline. Like he did something wrong and I'd say, okay, you need to like sit out for a while.
And his father would come in and interrupt and say, no, Izzy, you don't have to listen
(08:37):
to mom. You can just take it back. So he would basically undermine my ability to parent because
he made our son feel like that he was the main parent and that I was just cranky. So
that's an example of something like that.But in terms of what you can do about it,
I mean, because everyone gets scared. They see it happening. They're like, oh no, oh no,
(09:00):
my kids are gonna turn against me because my ex is saying all these terrible things.
One thing that has worked really well, and this is not like a quick fix,
but it's something called the 10-minute rule. And I got this idea from interviewing a child
psychiatrist named Dr. Olayera-Akinboye. And she said that more than anything of any age,
kids want your attention and they want control. So if as soon as you can, you start spending, if
(09:29):
you're able to be in contact with them, 10 minutes a day where you get on their level and you say,
“what are you interested in? Teach me how to do this or show me what you're up to. I don't know
how to do this video game, even if you don't like video games. Like, can you show me how to do it?
I don't know how to cook this dish and you're so good at it. Can you teach me how to do something?”
So spending those 10 minutes with your child really gives your kid an opportunity to bond
(09:53):
with you. So it makes them less likely to be, to fall prey to alienating behaviors
when the parent tries to turn them against you because you're establishing your own memories
with them and it helps them develop critical thinking skills. So when they hear, oh, let's
say mom's this terrible person, I'll be like, wait a second, mom and I have, we have these rituals,
we do these things together, like I'm less likely to believe it as a child because I know my mom,
(10:19):
my mom spends time with me, she gives me her attention, so I know it's not real.
So I'd say that's probably the best long-term plan is to make sure you spend whatever time you can,
again, not long vacations with them, but just a few minutes a day where you're
checking in with them and letting them lead.And I would think that would be easier than
(10:42):
ever now that we have FaceTime and video… you don't have to physically be in the same place
with them to still build this relationship and check in on them if you're physically separated.
I mean, there's so many things you can do, like sometimes parents who don't live near each other,
(11:03):
near the child, like they'll watch a show together and talk about it together, and
they'll each eat popcorn. I mean, there's so many things that you can do to still bond with kids.
So one of the things I've noticed is that there's a significant difference in the maturity age of
the kids and how they process what's going on.And this is not exactly the same thing, but we
(11:34):
went to a nursery school that was a co-op and a psychologist came in to talk to us after 9-11.
And one of the things that he said was, you don't have to worry about your little kids because your
little kids aren't going to understand what's going on right now in this tragedy. And your
older kids who are teenagers in high school, they should be emotionally mature enough to be able
(12:02):
to process what's going on. But the real danger age is that preteen, that teen time when they're
probably in middle school, when the children are old enough to understand something is going on,
but not emotionally mature enough to process it. So, can you give us some advice for navigating
(12:26):
communication with your child based on how old they are during that process?
Yeah, so first of all, the best thing you can do in general in these situations is to have yourself
as regulated as possible. No matter what age your kids are, you need to make sure that you have
support to get through this because, whatever age you're parenting, they are going to feel
(12:52):
emotionally responsible for you. They are tuning into your energy and your anxiety and your fear.
So the more support you can get on your own, completely separate from parenting,
the better it's going to be for everybody.So as long as your kids of any age know like mom's
okay, like I've got it, you have your friends, I have my friends. Like this might be a hard time
(13:14):
for us, but you don't need to take care of me. Just still like do your routines and go out with
your friends and show them that you're able to have fun. That's going to make everybody better.
With little kids, I think what we do when we're in these really, really stressful situations is
we forget that we have a different filter through how we are processing what's going
(13:35):
on. And sometimes it feels like because my world is consumed by this crazy divorce,
my kids are feeling the same thing. They're not. Little kids, like you said, they are
doing their own thing. So I think it's better to not really, I think it's better in general
not to talk about it. If they come to you, then you deal with it. Little kids can be distracted
(13:57):
a little more easily. So I would say listen to whatever their concerns are and then be like,
okay, whatever, listen and then distract. Got it, let's take care of your feelings. But now, hey,
we've got this birthday party to go to or let's go get some, something, something to distract.
Because they're not really interested. They just need to know I'm okay, my parents are going to
(14:21):
comfort me and now I can go on with my life.Teenagers, similar thing, it's probably a lot
harder for them because they are much more aware, but they also have their social life and their
friends, and they're not really interested. They don't wanna hear about what's going on with you.
The pre-teens, I imagine like they also don't want to hear, but anytime a kid of any age comes
(14:44):
to you with anger and aggression, which is super common in these situations, you want to make sure
that you don't try to explain things to them from your perspective because they don't care. Again,
you're the adult and they're the child. So if anything, you have to not make yourself center
stage. Like they're the ones suffering. And to basically be brave, which can be hard and just
(15:09):
sit there and be quiet and say, tell me more. Like I'm here for you. I just want to hear what
you have to say and try not to judge, try not to interfere, but realize they need to be able
to get it out even though they're going to be angry at you and heartbroken. It is so hard to
be a witness of that because as mothers, we want to fix. We don't want our kids to ever suffer.
(15:32):
Realize you can't make it stop. And so instead of acting like things are fine and it's gonna
be okay, just be like, you know what? This is really, really hard. Like I hear you and I am
here to help you or whatever you need from me, I'm here for you. And that's really it,
but not try to fix things.That empathy, I think,
(15:52):
is really powerful. And in a calm, as calm and controlled as you could be, as you've mentioned.
Right. Yeah, they are. So that I mentioned the word before, self-regulation. Like you
need to be as regulated because there's a term called co-regulation. It's you are helping your
child process an experience. So you can do that well if you are self-regulated and if you're not
(16:18):
regulated, then how are you supposed to help your child understand how to respond in this situation?
Boys in particular often internalize stress and anger and can be explosive in their communication.
I know. Right?And so I would imagine when you were going
(16:44):
through your divorce, that might've been something that happened with you. So how can moms recognize
when their son is really struggling and maybe get in front of it before it just totally blows up?
Yeah, I mean, I think any child struggles with divorce and that's why courts are likely to give
(17:05):
therapy if anyone asked for it, because it's hard for anybody high-conflict or not. It's hard for
kids to now be going back and forth between two homes, which is usually happening. Their
lives are completely disrupted and we know that in general, human beings need routine and consistency
and stability. So it's really, really hard.So I would say ahead of time, just assume
(17:27):
that your kid probably needs therapy and in terms of a therapist, think about the kind
of person that your kid really likes. Like think about their favorite, you can even ask them like
about their favorite teacher or their favorite coach or their favorite camp counselor and why
they like this person and what that person did to make them do well, succeed or show up
(17:49):
for something. And then think about that as you're choosing a therapist for your child.
Like I know with my son, I have a daughter and a son. When I was picking the therapist for my son,
I found this guy, his name was Mark. He was a former Hells Angel. He had dropped out of
high school, but he was brilliant. He had had like two master's degrees and he'd come into
(18:10):
the therapy place on his big motorbike as this huge guy in leather jacket and he and my son
would go in and talk about anything except the divorce for a while. And I was kind of like,
when are they going to like get to dealing with my son's feelings? They would talk about
politics and debate and whatever else and the therapist said, don't worry because I need to
(18:31):
first establish a rapport with your son and then we'll get to the stuff and just be really patient.
My son also had moments where he was really, really aggressive and he was bigger than me. And
I remember initially being frightened and feeling like I got to get him out of here because I can't
deal with him. And unfortunately my ex-husband pretty much abandoned the kids. So they were
(18:52):
dealing with that, and I couldn't just send him to his father. So I remember one time Izzy
had like this huge explosive thing in his room and he's flinging things around and I was like,
I can't deal with it. And we called Mark and Mark said, Lisa, now is the time that you cannot say
I'm going to send you to like Kids in Crisis or one of these resources in town that's supposed
(19:16):
to help because his father's already left him and he's testing you. He needs you now to be
really strong. So you have to do the opposite of what you feel like doing. You have to stay
strong and let it pass and recognize this as him finally letting out these feelings that he's kept
inside for so long as we've been talking about debate and politics and everything except that.
(19:38):
And that was really, really helpful to me to hear that. So it goes back to like finding support for
your kids that's appropriate. And again, the kind of person that they could establish a good
rapport with. And there's a lot of other things dealing with aggressive kids. There's some really
good programs out there, but again, they need to have at least one adult that they can talk
(20:00):
to. Their friends can't fix things, but to have one trusted adult, even if it's not you, just
somebody they can talk to to work through this is going to be really, really helpful in the end.
That's great advice. And so in my book, I called my boys Ernest and Exuberance and both of them
(20:26):
went through counseling for one thing or another at some points in their life. And we called it
“mental floss.” I mean, we tried to sort of make it just, and you just gotta clean out some of
the gook in there. And we also called everybody a “coach.” So they had organizational coaches, they
(20:49):
had life coaches, which was the counseling, the mental counseling person. And that just to help
them, I think, be okay with it because coach was something they were familiar with and happy with.
Yep, that's something, especially boys, they don't wanna feel like something's
wrong with me if you say you have to go to therapy. So we say the same thing as like,
(21:12):
let's get coaches and people who are thinking forward in terms of resolution and kind of rah,
rah, rah, rather than like, oh no, you need to sit on a couch and it's all your trauma.
Yeah, and we also had a very cool male and that was somebody that was very relatable
to them. So how can moms help their sons process what's going on when the father is not modeling
(21:40):
very good behavior and treating the mom, and might be speaking negatively to the children,
might be acting like they're a youngster again, right? So what's a
mom to do to help their son during and their daughters, their kids during that process?
(22:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the things I said so far, like having that time together with them,
making sure you're validating their feelings and listening. And I think
also making them feel like they have some agency in their lives and some choices.
So the ex is going to be bad mouthing, I would say just for that in general, not to try to tell
(22:26):
them the truth about it, because kids think of their parents as authorities. Both authorities
and authorities don't lie. So if one parent is telling me something about the other and then
the other saying the opposite, like let's say like my ex is talking badly about me. If I just said,
that's not true, this is what the truth is. I'm doing the same thing that my ex
(22:47):
is. I'm telling my kids what to believe.So you need to make kids feel like you
respect their judgment. So if they say, you know, dad's saying all these terrible things about you,
you can kind of throw it back to them and say, has that been your experience with me? Where are
you getting, what do you think? So really practicing that critical thinking muscle.
(23:09):
One of the things that I always did with my mantra in my head really with my kids, especially when
they were in that, they want to pick a fight with you mode. And I would advise friends if
the same thing, but I call it Don't Bite, right.So somebody's fishing and they're fly fishing and
(23:33):
they're throwing barbs at you. It's your choice to bite. You could just let it bounce off your chest
and then they move on because they're not getting the reaction that they wanted. And I think that,
you know, goes with kids as well as, you know, possibly the divorcing spouse.
Lisa Johnson (23:55):
Yeah, and so as you're saying that I'm thinking of the term baiting, they're baiting
you, they want you to do something. So one thing that I remember trying before the divorce, just
being silly with my kids is like, if they get mad at me, I'd be like, what do you wanna do? Like,
if you could, like, what would you do? Like rip my arms off, tie me to a car and like drive really
fast, like getting ridiculously disgusting. And then they'd laugh and then it was just done.
(24:20):
Right, so shifting the conversation to legal aspects, you know, and with years going on
for 10 years, you probably almost got a law degree yourself during that period.
My case was published as case law.Good grief, that's not necessarily
something to be proud of.No, I am really proud of that.
(24:42):
Thank you for getting through it, right? Yeah. So, you know, based on your experience
and what you've been doing ever since, what should moms know about documenting
interactions and using the court system wisely because it can get very costly very quickly?
Oh, tell me about it. Yeah, I always say I save well over a million dollars, you know,
(25:03):
representing myself for 7 ½ years through about 100 court appearances. Okay, so I think it's
really important first, and this is a lot of what we teach with our clients, is to understand what's
called the best interest factors, as well as another thing we call the alienation factors.
That's basically what the court really thinks is important when they're thinking about custody.
(25:24):
And then whenever you're communicating with your ex, you're only communicating about things that
actually matter because, as we just use that word baiting, people like our exes and our
clients' exes will do whatever they can to still try to engage our attention and use the kids to
do it. So often they'll be, when people meet us, there's all this communication going back
(25:45):
and forth about bedtimes and diet and allergies that have never been diagnosed and just on and on,
and what are you gonna do about this and that and things that like the court doesn't care about.
And so realizing the things that don't matter can be such a relief to people because they're like,
oh, I don't actually have to get into a written conversation about that.
(26:07):
So one thing that we teach more than anything with everyone is something we call strategic
communication. And we have a whole course on it called How to Communicate with Your
Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind. But it's making sure that you are,
and this turns into documentation for a case, but where you're communicating with your ex,
you're always writing to them, but you are writing for an invisible audience. And so the
(26:32):
goal is you're presenting as the most reasonable, best co-parent ever, but at the same time, you are
documenting your ex's patterns of behavior over time, the impact it has on your children and on
your relationship with your children because like I said, they're going try to create what's called
loyalty conflicts and make them discard you.So understanding those best interest factors
(26:56):
or custody factors, that's going to be the things that you communicate about, and that turns into
documentation for your case. But again, it's important to, you know, and this is too much to
get into here, but to really understand what matters and what doesn't so that you're not
constantly engaging because that's really what your ex wants is just to keep this thing going.
(27:18):
Well, and that it's just so depleting too, which is part of the strategy, I think.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.So I had some friends do something called
nesting during their divorce where, you know, the kids stay in the family home and the parents are
moving in and out. And it just seemed incredibly complicated to me and that nobody really felt
(27:42):
secure. And it was just in this constant state of flux and more expensive because now you have three
different, you know, locations that you're trying to manage. What do you recommend if you have,
you know, younger kids about this co-parenting, and what's your impression of nesting?
(28:02):
So nesting, so keep in mind that Chris and I, we only deal with high-conflict cases. Nesting
for amicable couples like might work, that's fine. If you wanna do that, the kids get to
stay in the same home. They don't have to go back and forth. The parents go in and out and that
could work. For our clients, absolutely never.There's a safety issue. A lot of our clients'
(28:24):
exes are surveilling them. They're stalking them. Sometimes they're planting things that
could end up being part of some weird court records, like drugs or guns or who knows what.
So we don't trust our exes to be in the same living space as us. So we never want nesting.
(28:45):
Now it's really hard because divorce is so expensive, especially in America,
to have two homes. But you cannot continue indefinitely to share a home with someone that
you're trying to get away from because also you're exposing your child to an unhealthy
relationship dynamic. And living like that, your kids think that this is not only normal,
(29:08):
but that it's the best that they can do and that's what they're going to be drawn toward. So I really
don't recommend nesting for any kind of domestic violence situation, even if there hasn't been
physical abuse. It's just not good for the kids to see that. And it is, like you said, it's kind
of unsustainable. It's like, how long are we going to keep pretending that things are okay?
(29:31):
Right, right. And I agree. You do think when you're doing these sort of things,
you have to think about, what is it that I'm teaching my child? And limits are a good thing.
So boundaries are healthy.Lisa Johnson: Yeah, yeah.
(29:52):
So what advice would you give a mom who's wrapping up the divorce and trying to reinvent herself and
heal? And do you have any resources?I think, again,
it goes back to that self-regulation.Number one, we don't want you doing what's
called doom scrolling. So a lot of times people in these cases, they're so worried and they're like,
(30:13):
what should I do? And they'll look at social media and they'll see all these awful articles
about terrible things that happen to children. Or they'll see the opposite of like, everyone else
is doing great except for me and they feel bad either way. So we don't want you doomscrolling.
I think it's really great to find a community of people that are experiencing what you're
dealing with that can kind of go along with you.Now, I've been to normal divorce groups when I
(30:40):
was first at the beginning of my own divorce and it was really, really tricky because my case was
so different and everyone else was talking about settling down and becoming friends. That was never
gonna happen for me. So I felt even more isolated.So Chris and I actually have a support group.
It's called the Weekly Legal Abuse Support Group. And we do a very unusual thing where
(31:01):
we blend our male and female clients together because we know that abuse is a human issue,
not a gender issue. And since all of our clients are going through very high-conflict situations,
it's great to have the people we call our “babies,” those are at the very beginning of the
process. And then our “grizzled veterans” who have been in it for a while, especially post-judgment,
(31:21):
who can kind of guide them along, offer emotional support. A lot of our clients
are very well-educated professionals and they are awesome at researching. So they're always bringing
things to the group, like resources to share.And I think being in a group that also is more
resolution focused and not on just keeping you in a trauma loop and feeling like, oh, you deserve
(31:44):
this, that, and the other thing, but it's more like, how can our family get through this as best
we can is way more helpful. So finding support groups like ours, which I'm very, very proud of.
And there are different groups around. Some are in person. Some domestic violence centers
have free support groups. I would make sure that whatever group you get involved with,
(32:06):
you feel really comfortable with whoever's running it and the people in it, because
sometimes people go to support groups and they end up feeling worse. You don't want
to subject yourself to something like that.Right. And there is affordable counseling out
there as well, which is often associated, I think, with those domestic violence kind of groups.
(32:29):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, our domestic violence center has free counseling for victims and
has free counseling for kids. It's just amazing. And I wish I had found them sooner than I did.
So I understand you've got a new book coming out in 2026. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
LYeah. It's called When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You. And we actually
(32:50):
have a course that's like 20 plus hours long on it. And so we have a podcast. It's called
the Been There, Got Out podcast and YouTube channel. And I have interviewed professionals
extensively for the last couple of years on this topic. Because, like I said, it is just
baked into legal abuse and post-separation abuse.And so the book is really a culmination of what
(33:13):
you can do when your ex is doing this in the legal system and out of the legal system. And I counted,
and I think I have at least 52 professionals whose advice I've kind of woven into
how to handle this situation. So the book is coming out in January 2026. I am so excited.
We're so passionate about this topic. And I love doing lots of content on it.
(33:37):
I mean, it's a heartbreaking topic, but it affects between 20 to 22 million adults in just America
and Canada alone. And so in our own legal abuse support group, alienation comes up all the time.
There's always this group of like 5 or 6 women at the end, because we turn our cameras off for the,
(33:58):
Chris and I, for the last 15 minutes and let them talk. And that seems to be such a major topic.
So I'm really excited because I'm already teaching some of the content from our book. We just got
off like a double header session with one of our clients about how to effectively use storytelling.
And she's a mother of a boy, she has two boys actually, of how to try to get them back and how
(34:22):
to persuade a judge that even though a child who might be close to aging out, legally you
don't have that much time, but this is the sort of thing that affects a child's ability to form
relationships for the rest of their lives. And if there's a parent that is trying to take away one
of their primary attachment figures, even though that other parent is the victim, but the child is
(34:47):
really the victim because it affects everything, their ability to trust, and they can have all
kinds of mental health issues later on. So it's so important to recognize the signs as early as
possible and to stop it from getting worse.Suzy Shaw: Well, we wish you all the best
with the unit support and a success with your new book. And so keep us in the loop, we'll be happy
(35:11):
to promote it when it's out.Thank you.
At the end of each one of our podcasts, we ask guests to give a motto or something
they can say to themselves when they're going through, which today is divorce.
And we've already sort of talked about some, I mean, I talked about Don't Bite, like that's sort
(35:35):
of something you could say to yourself, but what would you suggest to your clients and to parents?
So I think of one of my favorite quotes that I got from an interview with a bodyguard named
Steven Dana, who also started a nonprofit called Protection From Abuse. And he said,
“an abuser's greatest tool is fear.” And I think that that is what keeps people in a
(36:01):
position where they feel paralyzed and scared and like they can't move forward and they can't heal.
So I think it's so important to educate yourself and to understand that this is something that
your ex is doing to keep you from standing up to them. And often, at least in our clients' cases,
(36:22):
they're bullies. And once you start learning how to turn the power dynamic around, which
you have complete control over, because most of the time that fear isn't real,
it's what you think. It's like they're still squatting between your ears,
we like to say. Once you can get them out of your head, everything changes. Getting
rid of that fear is just a world of difference and there's ways that you can learn how to do
(36:46):
that. So just know that. Like it feels like the most terrifying thing and that everything's out
of your control. There's a lot more things you can control than you think you can.
That's such a powerful thing to model for your children too, right? Resilience,
resistance, self-respect. I mean, it's all sort of wrapped up in that.
(37:07):
If you would like more information about Lisa and her partner, Chris's book, Been There, Got Out,
Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances,
or her new book, which is called When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You, please visit their
website, beentheregotout.com. We'll also link to their website on the mothersofboys.life website.
(37:37):
And thank you for joining us today. Follow The MOB (Mothers of Boys) on Facebook, Instagram,
YouTube, and your favorite podcast platform. Be kind to yourself, moms, and have a great week.
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