May 2, 2025 • 29 mins
Gail and Karen share their first experiences with natural death — stories of being "forced" into it by circumstance, and discovering something unexpectedly beautiful.
They explore the emotional and spiritual transformation that can unfold when we walk beside our animals through death, without rushing to euthanasia.
An honest conversation about grief, trust, and the sacred process of letting go.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here with Gail Pope.
Today we are going to talk about a question that we're often asked because both Gail and I are advocates of considering allowing a natural death or as we often describe it a natural transition whenever possible.
(01:19):
So we're often asked about how we came to that conclusion, to something we aim for with our own pets.
So that's the topic for us to address today.
Gail, as we discussed, let's start out talking about our own first experiences with a natural death rather than death by euthanasia.
(01:47):
I'll let you go first because this is an area of your life's work.
Something you learned about it.
You allowed it to happen at various times and learned that it can be a very peaceful gradual death that is not painful and the animal does not suffer.
So how about you start us out with your first experience with a natural death.
(02:11):
Because I do know for both of us, we didn't choose it.
It wasn't like, "Okay, the next time we have a pet in trouble. Let's just do it naturally." That isn't what either one of us did.
Each of us were forced into it under different circumstances and that's how we learned.
That's how we had our first experience with natural death.
(02:32):
So let's let you start.
Gail Pope (02:35):
My first experience, wow, more like a bucking bronco if anything because I was brought up at all stages of my life to believe that euthanasia was the kindest way for an animal's life to end.
It never occurred to me that humans didn't generally get euthanized but animals did.
(02:56):
That gap didn't ever occur to me and I just grew up with our animals were very kindly euthanized when the time was right.
Karen Wylie (03:05):
Me too.
Gail Pope (03:05):
And when we started our first organization with, which became BrightHaven (Cats Are People Too), I worked for a veterinarian and it was the way we worked.
I was going to say it wasn't a problem, but let's face it, dying is always a difficult thing.
There was always a lot of anticipation for the euthanasia.
There was always a lot of grief after.
(03:27):
You know, it was not a pleasant experience at all but it was trusted.
Oh my goodness, I'll never forget the day of my first experience of a natural death.
Mariah was a very old lady.
She was as thin as a stick, jet black, really emaciated.
She was in her early twenties.
(03:48):
She had very gradually wound down, wound down, and she was barely alive but her eyes were alive.
She was really with it.
She would still walk like a stick insect.
She just wasn't ready but then came the day she was and I could see she was ready.
(04:09):
I was at the sanctuary all on my own with all the animals and we had always had somebody else; maybe I wouldn't have ever left them alone without anybody there.
So I called our very good friend Vicki Allinson who was an animal communicator, a holistic practitioner.
She lived fairly close by and she was just invaluable to us at the time.
(04:30):
So I called Vicki, I said, "Oh my goodness, I need your help.
Could you please come and just look after everybody.
Mariah, I need to take her in to have her euthanized." And Vicki said, "I saw her yesterday and she's winding down to the end of her life very beautifully." And I said, "No, you don't understand.
She's actually dying today." and the panic rose obviously as it does.
(04:53):
She said, "Sadly, I can't come but I can help you." And so all the time she's speaking very calmly and sweetly, and the panic in me is just rising and rising.
And
she said, "Come on, you have no alternative.
I promise you, there is nothing to be fearful of here.
(05:17):
This is transition.
So why don't you take her out into your front garden.
You've got that beautiful old oak tree there.
Just sit yourself down with her."
And I'm like, "I can't, this is terrible. What am I going to do? I can't." But I had no option.
So I did and I took her outside.
As I remember I had a blanket.
(05:38):
I actually brought a litter box and put it down and then I sat down with my back against the tree with Mariah in my lap.
It seemed like we were there for hours and hours.
In fact, I don't remember.
It probably was at least two to three hours, and Mariah was peaceful.
She was lying in my arms.
Occasionally she would stretch or make little movements, but she was very clearly winding down.
(06:02):
At one point she got a little bit restless, so I put her in the litter box, just because I thought maybe she needed to go.
Why even had a litter box?
I don't know because we were on grass.
I could've just put her on the grass.
Anyway, she didn't, and she was very clearly wasn't panic stricken.
There wasn't anything really to be scared of but I was getting more and more scared.
(06:24):
So I brought her back into my arms, in my lap and I'm just holding her very gently.
Basically she lifted her head, she tilted it back.
She looked directly into my eyes, gave a sigh, and her body went limp.
(06:50):
Now that should have been very beautiful.
However, for me, I killed her.
It was my fault.
Everything welled up.
I sobbed I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know.
What can I do?
This is terrible.
What have I done?" And what strikes me — I mean, there's been so much water under the bridge.
Obviously since then and looking back to realize that it was a good couple of months, if not longer before I actually started to really see the beauty of what I'd experienced.
Karen Wylie (07:25):
This was a lot to process, especially, you know, holding firm in your mind the right way to handle the end of life for an animal.
Then you had the situation forced upon you.
Gail Pope (07:39):
It was face to face and it was the most scary thing that I had ever seen, and my mind said it was, it was my fault.
Karen Wylie (07:49):
Yes, you'd done something wrong.
Gail Pope (07:51):
I'd done something wrong.
Whereas in actual fact, it was absolutely beautiful.
Yes.
Very beautiful.
So what about you?
Karen Wylie (08:00):
Well, in one way, similar to you in that the situation was forced upon me but different in the specifics of it.
I had a cat that I knew could have heart trouble because of the bloodline that he had.
I understood that there was some trouble in that family bloodline with heart issues, but this particular cat had not shown any kind of symptom, perfect, perfect health.
(08:26):
We were in the middle of a snowstorm and in the mountains, in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina, and this was 30 years ago with all back roads to your emergency veterinarians.
The fact that this cat threw a saddle thrombus.
Had paralyzed his hind quarters by this blood clot blocking blood flow to his, hind quarters and back legs.
(08:52):
Now I knew what to do about that and I actually had some heparin I could inject to try to bust the clot.
But with this particular cat, it wasn't just the clot to the hind quarters, but within an hour he had thrown a clot either to his lungs or his brain, which can also happen.
(09:14):
The snow was so bad the storm was extensive in terms of the amount of snow coming down.
We knew what the back roads would be like and it was an hour.
Each of the emergency clinics were an hour away in perfect weather.
So I was fortunate to have my wonderful friend Carol, who was a veterinarian and our veterinarian who had a clinic about 25 miles north of us.
(09:43):
I knew she wasn't going to be open because this was the middle of the night.
It was about 11 or midnight that night.
But I called her to say, "Hey, this is what's going on." at first it was like, okay, if it's just the paralysis to the hindquarters.
We'll see what we can do with it and talk about it in the morning.
But then his circulation was clearly blocked in more ways and so I called her again and described what was happening and she was like, "Okay, it really does sound like his body is shutting down and there's not going to be anything you can do." And where she lived, she was at a higher elevation than we were.
(10:24):
It was just not possible that night to take the cat to her.
So she said you're going to need to allow him to die on his own." And what I was describing to her is that I thought his conscious level of consciousness had changed.
That's why I said we think he threw a clot to the brain because the look in his eyes was now fixed where he wasn't seeing us anymore.
(10:48):
And yet, so knowing that this is happening, I'm hearing this from her and she said, "I think this is what's going to happen.
Call me back, in a little while.
Tell me what's going on and we'll see what we can do." Well, a little later on, the phones are down, back when landlines, that's how far back this is and I was here fortunately with my husband Tim, who was a science professor for 30 years with, biology and chemistry and botany, the whole thing.
(11:15):
So he had never seen an animal die on its own.
We've always, at that point, brought our animals for euthanasia and that had always been my experience growing up as well.
So this was different.
We're watching the dying process and I am horrified that this is happening because for any of us who love our animals, the minute we think they're in pain, the minute we see they're in trouble, we want to fix it.
(11:41):
We want to stop it, we want to, do something.
Here I was in a middle of a raging snowstorm, can't get out the driveway even.
I had to watch my animal die.
Fortunately in this case, I know you were saying Mariah looked at you and gave you that peaceful exit where she let go with that last breath.
(12:04):
I did at least have the comfort that this particular baby, his name was Rio, was not really there anymore.
I didn't get the sense of him really responding to me anymore.
His body was shutting down and fortunately Tim knew enough about biology that as he would watch Rio.
His body stretch out as the cells in the body don't all die at one time.
(12:30):
The areas furthest away from the heart generally start to die.
So they move their legs because it feels a little different to them.
That happens whether they're conscious or not.
So at least I had my husband's biology experience to say, "Okay, this is probably what's happening."
I've not seen it before but this makes sense.
Somehow we got through it and it was overall about an hour and a half.
(12:52):
This is 30 years ago.
I don't remember everything and I wasn't writing things like this down.
It was just happening.
I didn't feel guilt about it that I was doing something wrong because I did have the snowstorm that I could do nothing about.
As what prompted this whole series of decisions of we can't get in the car, we can't take him to Carol, what are our options now?
(13:20):
And it certainly was easier to have Carol on the phone than not.
But Carol as a fully trained veterinarian, she was honest to say, "I have not seen a natural death. I intervene in these kind of situations with euthanasia." So there was only so much she could say to me about this process.
So again, I didn't feel guilt
(13:45):
but it was a very peaceful exit overall.
The first 20 minutes or so when he threw the blood clot to his hind quarters and he was in pain.
I knew what to do with the heparin to try to bust the clot but then his body took over and apparently threw additional clots and he lost.
(14:07):
He was alive but he wasn't thinking and responding in a typical way.
So I kept thinking about that and I talked with Carol about it and she said it based on what I had described that it was likely a clot to the brain and he was not in pain in that process.
(14:27):
His body was just going through the dying process and he wasn't in pain when it was happening and he was not suffering.
That was a real learning for me.
I processed that for at least a couple years before I had another situation where I wondered if allowing a natural death was something that I could consider.
(14:53):
Because this first round, I definitely didn't choose it.
Just like you didn't choose a natural death for Mariah.
But at some point later on, with other cats and dogs, I began to see a spiritual aspect to it.
Whereas with the first time it happens, you're so consumed with the physicalness of it because you haven't seen this happen before and you're trying to figure out what to do.
(15:22):
We don't do that with humans.
They're dying in a hospital bed or at home in their bed, and we're allowing a natural death with humans.
But euthanasia has always been the preferred choice, the traditional choice with our animals.
At some point I started moving away from kind of that strict idea that this is how it has to be and started saying could it be different?
(15:52):
Under what circumstances could a natural death be allowed?
And I think the next time I needed to or was able to begin considering this was with kidney disease, which of course most cats at the end of their lives, isn't the statistic, 90% of cats, are either going to die of kidney disease or it's going to be one of the reasons at their end of life.
(16:19):
Generally speaking, what I've been told by vets is that is not a painful death for them.
It's a slow shutting down of the body.
Gail Pope (16:27):
Yes, certainly.
Golly, I hate to think how many hundreds of natural transitions that I've experienced.
I think for me, the whole thing was really all about my fear of death itself.
So going back to what you were talking about,
(16:47):
the spiritual understanding of death and it being a transition
is what can step into this gap in the middle which can work with your fear.
Because you can gradually start to accept it is normal.
It is part of the great circle of life and it's not this raging black thing that is so scary.
(17:14):
I think we all have fear of death because we don't quite understand it because we don't remember experiencing it.
Maybe that's what it is.
So it's something that we can't quite comprehend.
So we are scared of it.
But I think the more I've seen animals transition naturally, the more it's helped me to really believe to understand the spiritual aspect and to see how easy death can be.
(17:43):
Also to see how difficult death can be too.
There are both sides to the coin.
Sometimes Mother Nature doesn't help us the way we would intend and it can be very difficult.
Luckily, we do have the option of euthanasia or of specific drugs to help the physical self in whatever is needed.
I think, natural passing, whether you are accompanying a human or an animal is probably the greatest gift that I was going to say that we can give them.
(18:15):
But maybe it's for them to give us.
Karen Wylie (18:18):
So true.
Gail Pope (18:19):
Just as important.
Karen Wylie (18:21):
Yes.
The death of my animals was my entrée to any kind of energetic practice or spiritual practice or interest in exploring that aspect of our lives.
Both in our current lives and what might be beyond because those relationships I had with my pets and trying to understand did open things up for me.
(18:46):
Now I always approach every illness, every diagnosis with my animals, with the thought, "Let's proceed and with our goal being allowing a natural transition. When we get to that point, it is still possible and pain is not an issue that we can't take care of." If you plan for euthanasia, you're going to take all your actions for that.
(19:12):
You're really not going to be even thinking about allowing a natural death.
Two years ago I had a cat with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy diagnosis.
Next month, it'll be two years since he died but he lived for two and a half years after that diagnosis.
He was declining with congestive heart failure.
We had him on Lasix because there started to be a little bit of fluid in his lungs.
(19:35):
Not very much, could be controlled with Lasix.
I could tell with the vet techs at the clinic, there was some concern about it would really be best if he was euthanized because this can get very painful.
The fact is he wasn't in pain then and ultimately he died in his sleep.
I know it's something that we hear doesn't ever happen.
(19:57):
It really doesn't happen that way.
It does happen that way.
It happens a lot of the time where they go to sleep and they don't wake up.
So that is what I aim for when I have a difficult diagnosis or terminal diagnosis with my pets.
It is my hope to allow them to make the decision of when they're going to die because their body just doesn't have what it takes to live.
Gail Pope (20:21):
Yes, exactly.
It's time to leave the derelict house.
Karen Wylie (20:25):
Yes, exactly.
In my experience is that if we allow them to make that choice and determine that time themselves, that they can do a pretty darn good job of it.
Gail Pope (20:38):
Yes.
That also makes me think that we're, again, we're addressing death from a holistic point of view.
I think that, when Mariah died, it was at a time when I was just stepping into the path of balance, a holistic lifestyle, feeding, medicine, all sorts of things.
(21:00):
So as our animals attained a better level of health, they in turn found a better level for the dying process.
That sounds strange but as they became healthier, they lived longer.
We know that and then they gradually wound down towards death without a label, sometimes.
(21:25):
It wasn't "he died of this" or "he died of that." Sometimes it was, especially with renal failure, because you can't ignore that one.
The trajectory towards the end of life became more peaceful and easy anyway, so I think that must have been a great help.
Karen Wylie (21:40):
And you seeing that happening for them and with them allowed you to be more relaxed about it as well.
See, that was the experience I had with especially as we're saying so many of the cats having kidney disease as the tipping point.
When that balance in their body is no longer achievable and everything's the system start breaking down.
(22:03):
But it can be a peaceful process and it can be a peaceful crossing over.
Gail Pope (22:08):
Definitely.
Again, it's all about balance because even when the balance shifts towards the end of life, there is again bringing the world of energy.
Reiki can help, homeopathy can help.
There's so many different ways to work with balance to the end of life.
Karen Wylie (22:26):
Yes.
That helps balance us as well.
If we learn about any of the energetics that we're focused on giving to them and providing for them, it's also working to soothe us and our own approach to everything.
Gail Pope (22:42):
When I think back to all those years ago when Mariah died and the abject misery and actual pain that I experienced during that process was awful.
Whereas now I understand death better.
I have much more spiritual approach towards it.
(23:02):
Although my heart is breaking to say goodbye, I'm only saying goodbye to the physical.
So I'm able to be in a state of I don't know, what's the word?
I hate to keep using the word balance but it's more of understanding perhaps and being in the moment and having it to be about love.
Karen Wylie (23:22):
Right?
Gail Pope (23:22):
Yes, difficult subject.
Karen Wylie (23:25):
It is a difficult subject because if we aren't able to be at peace about them crossing over.
Then whatever angst we have, it has to affect them in some way.
You just think about how our animals are with us when they're healthy and they pick up on everything that's happening with us.
(23:46):
Every feeling we have, every thought we have most of the time and we know that carries over into human transition as well.
How many humans in their deathbed either hold on long enough for their a loved one, who's on the other side of the country, to get on a plane and get there to be at their bedside before they take their last breath.
(24:13):
Or conversely, there can be family members never leave in that room and somebody has to be with them all the time.
Then finally somebody has to get a cup of coffee or they have to take a nap and they leave and suddenly the person feels, "Okay, I can let go. They're not going to be traumatized by me dying with them here." So we know humans can make those decisions based on the emotions and thought processes of their loved ones around them.
(24:45):
I completely believe it's the same for our babies.
We may not know
Gail Pope (24:49):
Oh God, yes.
Karen Wylie (24:50):
Know what they think or feel or and they're not necessarily saying something to us but I totally believe that it's the same kind of circumstance.
Gail Pope (24:58):
That reminds me of, believe it or not, a story,
Karen Wylie (25:02):
Oh my goodness, from you?
Gail Pope (25:05):
I know.
Strange, huh?
But yes there must be lots of stories.
Thankfully, not as many as could be because my animals know very clearly that I give them permission to die when I'm not in the room, when I'm not close by.
I understand that when the time comes, if they need to step out, they will.
But I do tell them that I really would like to be with them.
(25:26):
But this takes me back to all those years ago when Harriet died and she was a cat.
She'd been winding down, getting close to the end of her life.
At that point I had her in a big wicker basket with a handle because I'm busy working.
So Harriet was coming with me, so I had her in this basket.
So there I am in the BrightHaven kitchen feeding the animals, and I needed to go into my pantry which was literally just across the room to, I think, I dunno, maybe get a can of food.
(25:58):
So I bent down and I talked to her and I stroked her and I said, "It's okay. I'm just going to be gone a moment." And so I stroked her and she was fine.
I went into the pantry, I came back, I put it down, and she'd gone.
It was maybe more than one minute, less than two and she just left her house and I was shocked, but not really.
(26:23):
I understood, but she did not want me to be there.
She needed to do this for herself.
I think sometimes our loving energy perhaps can be so strong and so forceful that an animal holds on and holds on.
When in actual fact, if we give them a just a little space, they can let go and go.
(26:43):
Hard being a human.
Karen Wylie (26:46):
Yes, we think through too many things rather than just feeling into it.
We try to anticipate every scenario and what we could do or should do.
Gail Pope (26:57):
Yes, I think there are tons and tons more interesting stories, but maybe not for today.
Otherwise I'll never stop.
Karen Wylie (27:04):
I don't have as many as you but I've got a few as well.
I think what we can do is just key off of this last part of what you were saying and defer it to a future podcast conversation because you were doing with your pets the same thing I would do, which would be trying to prepare them for the fact that they looked like they were dying and "I'll be okay if you need to go without me." and you were doing that too.
(27:32):
Let's plan to do another conversation about how we can prepare our pets to transition and also help ourselves prepare for their transition.
Gail Pope (27:42):
Do you mean it the other way around?
They're perfectly fine and I think it's them preparing us.
Karen Wylie (27:49):
I think you're absolutely right.
But the way I go about it is I'm thinking of them because here's what's going to happen and so forth.
We'll see, we're already talking about it.
We'll definitely take this topic a little further.
So thank you as always, Gail for a lovely conversation about something that matters a great deal to both of us.
I know it matters a great deal to every pet parent because we love them in our lives and cherish their lives even when we know that they will ultimately leave us.
(28:20):
But learning what we can about that leaving process can help all of us as well.
We thank you for being with us today and we hope that you'll return to peace of mind for pet parents for our next episodes.
And we will do one on preparing ourselves for our pets transition while we also prepare them.
(28:42):
Thank you all.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (28:44):
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(29:20):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here with Gail Pope.
Today we are going to talk about a question that we're often asked because both Gail and I are advocates of considering allowing a natural death or as we often describe it a natural transition whenever possible.
(01:19):
So we're often asked about how we came to that conclusion, to something we aim for with our own pets.
So that's the topic for us to address today.
Gail, as we discussed, let's start out talking about our own first experiences with a natural death rather than death by euthanasia.
(01:47):
I'll let you go first because this is an area of your life's work.
Something you learned about it.
You allowed it to happen at various times and learned that it can be a very peaceful gradual death that is not painful and the animal does not suffer.
So how about you start us out with your first experience with a natural death.
(02:11):
Because I do know for both of us, we didn't choose it.
It wasn't like, "Okay, the next time we have a pet in trouble. Let's just do it naturally." That isn't what either one of us did.
Each of us were forced into it under different circumstances and that's how we learned.
That's how we had our first experience with natural death.
(02:32):
So let's let you start.
Gail Pope (02:35):
My first experience, wow, more like a bucking bronco if anything because I was brought up at all stages of my life to believe that euthanasia was the kindest way for an animal's life to end.
It never occurred to me that humans didn't generally get euthanized but animals did.
(02:56):
That gap didn't ever occur to me and I just grew up with our animals were very kindly euthanized when the time was right.
Karen Wylie (03:05):
Me too.
Gail Pope (03:05):
And when we started our first organization with, which became BrightHaven (Cats Are People Too), I worked for a veterinarian and it was the way we worked.
I was going to say it wasn't a problem, but let's face it, dying is always a difficult thing.
There was always a lot of anticipation for the euthanasia.
There was always a lot of grief after.
(03:27):
You know, it was not a pleasant experience at all but it was trusted.
Oh my goodness, I'll never forget the day of my first experience of a natural death.
Mariah was a very old lady.
She was as thin as a stick, jet black, really emaciated.
She was in her early twenties.
(03:48):
She had very gradually wound down, wound down, and she was barely alive but her eyes were alive.
She was really with it.
She would still walk like a stick insect.
She just wasn't ready but then came the day she was and I could see she was ready.
(04:09):
I was at the sanctuary all on my own with all the animals and we had always had somebody else; maybe I wouldn't have ever left them alone without anybody there.
So I called our very good friend Vicki Allinson who was an animal communicator, a holistic practitioner.
She lived fairly close by and she was just invaluable to us at the time.
(04:30):
So I called Vicki, I said, "Oh my goodness, I need your help.
Could you please come and just look after everybody.
Mariah, I need to take her in to have her euthanized." And Vicki said, "I saw her yesterday and she's winding down to the end of her life very beautifully." And I said, "No, you don't understand.
She's actually dying today." and the panic rose obviously as it does.
(04:53):
She said, "Sadly, I can't come but I can help you." And so all the time she's speaking very calmly and sweetly, and the panic in me is just rising and rising.
And
she said, "Come on, you have no alternative.
I promise you, there is nothing to be fearful of here.
(05:17):
This is transition.
So why don't you take her out into your front garden.
You've got that beautiful old oak tree there.
Just sit yourself down with her."
And I'm like, "I can't, this is terrible. What am I going to do? I can't." But I had no option.
So I did and I took her outside.
As I remember I had a blanket.
(05:38):
I actually brought a litter box and put it down and then I sat down with my back against the tree with Mariah in my lap.
It seemed like we were there for hours and hours.
In fact, I don't remember.
It probably was at least two to three hours, and Mariah was peaceful.
She was lying in my arms.
Occasionally she would stretch or make little movements, but she was very clearly winding down.
(06:02):
At one point she got a little bit restless, so I put her in the litter box, just because I thought maybe she needed to go.
Why even had a litter box?
I don't know because we were on grass.
I could've just put her on the grass.
Anyway, she didn't, and she was very clearly wasn't panic stricken.
There wasn't anything really to be scared of but I was getting more and more scared.
(06:24):
So I brought her back into my arms, in my lap and I'm just holding her very gently.
Basically she lifted her head, she tilted it back.
She looked directly into my eyes, gave a sigh, and her body went limp.
(06:50):
Now that should have been very beautiful.
However, for me, I killed her.
It was my fault.
Everything welled up.
I sobbed I was like, "Oh my gosh, I don't know.
What can I do?
This is terrible.
What have I done?" And what strikes me — I mean, there's been so much water under the bridge.
Obviously since then and looking back to realize that it was a good couple of months, if not longer before I actually started to really see the beauty of what I'd experienced.
Karen Wylie (07:25):
This was a lot to process, especially, you know, holding firm in your mind the right way to handle the end of life for an animal.
Then you had the situation forced upon you.
Gail Pope (07:39):
It was face to face and it was the most scary thing that I had ever seen, and my mind said it was, it was my fault.
Karen Wylie (07:49):
Yes, you'd done something wrong.
Gail Pope (07:51):
I'd done something wrong.
Whereas in actual fact, it was absolutely beautiful.
Yes.
Very beautiful.
So what about you?
Karen Wylie (08:00):
Well, in one way, similar to you in that the situation was forced upon me but different in the specifics of it.
I had a cat that I knew could have heart trouble because of the bloodline that he had.
I understood that there was some trouble in that family bloodline with heart issues, but this particular cat had not shown any kind of symptom, perfect, perfect health.
(08:26):
We were in the middle of a snowstorm and in the mountains, in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina, and this was 30 years ago with all back roads to your emergency veterinarians.
The fact that this cat threw a saddle thrombus.
Had paralyzed his hind quarters by this blood clot blocking blood flow to his, hind quarters and back legs.
(08:52):
Now I knew what to do about that and I actually had some heparin I could inject to try to bust the clot.
But with this particular cat, it wasn't just the clot to the hind quarters, but within an hour he had thrown a clot either to his lungs or his brain, which can also happen.
(09:14):
The snow was so bad the storm was extensive in terms of the amount of snow coming down.
We knew what the back roads would be like and it was an hour.
Each of the emergency clinics were an hour away in perfect weather.
So I was fortunate to have my wonderful friend Carol, who was a veterinarian and our veterinarian who had a clinic about 25 miles north of us.
(09:43):
I knew she wasn't going to be open because this was the middle of the night.
It was about 11 or midnight that night.
But I called her to say, "Hey, this is what's going on." at first it was like, okay, if it's just the paralysis to the hindquarters.
We'll see what we can do with it and talk about it in the morning.
But then his circulation was clearly blocked in more ways and so I called her again and described what was happening and she was like, "Okay, it really does sound like his body is shutting down and there's not going to be anything you can do." And where she lived, she was at a higher elevation than we were.
(10:24):
It was just not possible that night to take the cat to her.
So she said you're going to need to allow him to die on his own." And what I was describing to her is that I thought his conscious level of consciousness had changed.
That's why I said we think he threw a clot to the brain because the look in his eyes was now fixed where he wasn't seeing us anymore.
(10:48):
And yet, so knowing that this is happening, I'm hearing this from her and she said, "I think this is what's going to happen.
Call me back, in a little while.
Tell me what's going on and we'll see what we can do." Well, a little later on, the phones are down, back when landlines, that's how far back this is and I was here fortunately with my husband Tim, who was a science professor for 30 years with, biology and chemistry and botany, the whole thing.
(11:15):
So he had never seen an animal die on its own.
We've always, at that point, brought our animals for euthanasia and that had always been my experience growing up as well.
So this was different.
We're watching the dying process and I am horrified that this is happening because for any of us who love our animals, the minute we think they're in pain, the minute we see they're in trouble, we want to fix it.
(11:41):
We want to stop it, we want to, do something.
Here I was in a middle of a raging snowstorm, can't get out the driveway even.
I had to watch my animal die.
Fortunately in this case, I know you were saying Mariah looked at you and gave you that peaceful exit where she let go with that last breath.
(12:04):
I did at least have the comfort that this particular baby, his name was Rio, was not really there anymore.
I didn't get the sense of him really responding to me anymore.
His body was shutting down and fortunately Tim knew enough about biology that as he would watch Rio.
His body stretch out as the cells in the body don't all die at one time.
(12:30):
The areas furthest away from the heart generally start to die.
So they move their legs because it feels a little different to them.
That happens whether they're conscious or not.
So at least I had my husband's biology experience to say, "Okay, this is probably what's happening."
I've not seen it before but this makes sense.
Somehow we got through it and it was overall about an hour and a half.
(12:52):
This is 30 years ago.
I don't remember everything and I wasn't writing things like this down.
It was just happening.
I didn't feel guilt about it that I was doing something wrong because I did have the snowstorm that I could do nothing about.
As what prompted this whole series of decisions of we can't get in the car, we can't take him to Carol, what are our options now?
(13:20):
And it certainly was easier to have Carol on the phone than not.
But Carol as a fully trained veterinarian, she was honest to say, "I have not seen a natural death. I intervene in these kind of situations with euthanasia." So there was only so much she could say to me about this process.
So again, I didn't feel guilt
(13:45):
but it was a very peaceful exit overall.
The first 20 minutes or so when he threw the blood clot to his hind quarters and he was in pain.
I knew what to do with the heparin to try to bust the clot but then his body took over and apparently threw additional clots and he lost.
(14:07):
He was alive but he wasn't thinking and responding in a typical way.
So I kept thinking about that and I talked with Carol about it and she said it based on what I had described that it was likely a clot to the brain and he was not in pain in that process.
(14:27):
His body was just going through the dying process and he wasn't in pain when it was happening and he was not suffering.
That was a real learning for me.
I processed that for at least a couple years before I had another situation where I wondered if allowing a natural death was something that I could consider.
(14:53):
Because this first round, I definitely didn't choose it.
Just like you didn't choose a natural death for Mariah.
But at some point later on, with other cats and dogs, I began to see a spiritual aspect to it.
Whereas with the first time it happens, you're so consumed with the physicalness of it because you haven't seen this happen before and you're trying to figure out what to do.
(15:22):
We don't do that with humans.
They're dying in a hospital bed or at home in their bed, and we're allowing a natural death with humans.
But euthanasia has always been the preferred choice, the traditional choice with our animals.
At some point I started moving away from kind of that strict idea that this is how it has to be and started saying could it be different?
(15:52):
Under what circumstances could a natural death be allowed?
And I think the next time I needed to or was able to begin considering this was with kidney disease, which of course most cats at the end of their lives, isn't the statistic, 90% of cats, are either going to die of kidney disease or it's going to be one of the reasons at their end of life.
(16:19):
Generally speaking, what I've been told by vets is that is not a painful death for them.
It's a slow shutting down of the body.
Gail Pope (16:27):
Yes, certainly.
Golly, I hate to think how many hundreds of natural transitions that I've experienced.
I think for me, the whole thing was really all about my fear of death itself.
So going back to what you were talking about,
(16:47):
the spiritual understanding of death and it being a transition
is what can step into this gap in the middle which can work with your fear.
Because you can gradually start to accept it is normal.
It is part of the great circle of life and it's not this raging black thing that is so scary.
(17:14):
I think we all have fear of death because we don't quite understand it because we don't remember experiencing it.
Maybe that's what it is.
So it's something that we can't quite comprehend.
So we are scared of it.
But I think the more I've seen animals transition naturally, the more it's helped me to really believe to understand the spiritual aspect and to see how easy death can be.
(17:43):
Also to see how difficult death can be too.
There are both sides to the coin.
Sometimes Mother Nature doesn't help us the way we would intend and it can be very difficult.
Luckily, we do have the option of euthanasia or of specific drugs to help the physical self in whatever is needed.
I think, natural passing, whether you are accompanying a human or an animal is probably the greatest gift that I was going to say that we can give them.
(18:15):
But maybe it's for them to give us.
Karen Wylie (18:18):
So true.
Gail Pope (18:19):
Just as important.
Karen Wylie (18:21):
Yes.
The death of my animals was my entrée to any kind of energetic practice or spiritual practice or interest in exploring that aspect of our lives.
Both in our current lives and what might be beyond because those relationships I had with my pets and trying to understand did open things up for me.
(18:46):
Now I always approach every illness, every diagnosis with my animals, with the thought, "Let's proceed and with our goal being allowing a natural transition. When we get to that point, it is still possible and pain is not an issue that we can't take care of." If you plan for euthanasia, you're going to take all your actions for that.
(19:12):
You're really not going to be even thinking about allowing a natural death.
Two years ago I had a cat with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy diagnosis.
Next month, it'll be two years since he died but he lived for two and a half years after that diagnosis.
He was declining with congestive heart failure.
We had him on Lasix because there started to be a little bit of fluid in his lungs.
(19:35):
Not very much, could be controlled with Lasix.
I could tell with the vet techs at the clinic, there was some concern about it would really be best if he was euthanized because this can get very painful.
The fact is he wasn't in pain then and ultimately he died in his sleep.
I know it's something that we hear doesn't ever happen.
(19:57):
It really doesn't happen that way.
It does happen that way.
It happens a lot of the time where they go to sleep and they don't wake up.
So that is what I aim for when I have a difficult diagnosis or terminal diagnosis with my pets.
It is my hope to allow them to make the decision of when they're going to die because their body just doesn't have what it takes to live.
Gail Pope (20:21):
Yes, exactly.
It's time to leave the derelict house.
Karen Wylie (20:25):
Yes, exactly.
In my experience is that if we allow them to make that choice and determine that time themselves, that they can do a pretty darn good job of it.
Gail Pope (20:38):
Yes.
That also makes me think that we're, again, we're addressing death from a holistic point of view.
I think that, when Mariah died, it was at a time when I was just stepping into the path of balance, a holistic lifestyle, feeding, medicine, all sorts of things.
(21:00):
So as our animals attained a better level of health, they in turn found a better level for the dying process.
That sounds strange but as they became healthier, they lived longer.
We know that and then they gradually wound down towards death without a label, sometimes.
(21:25):
It wasn't "he died of this" or "he died of that." Sometimes it was, especially with renal failure, because you can't ignore that one.
The trajectory towards the end of life became more peaceful and easy anyway, so I think that must have been a great help.
Karen Wylie (21:40):
And you seeing that happening for them and with them allowed you to be more relaxed about it as well.
See, that was the experience I had with especially as we're saying so many of the cats having kidney disease as the tipping point.
When that balance in their body is no longer achievable and everything's the system start breaking down.
(22:03):
But it can be a peaceful process and it can be a peaceful crossing over.
Gail Pope (22:08):
Definitely.
Again, it's all about balance because even when the balance shifts towards the end of life, there is again bringing the world of energy.
Reiki can help, homeopathy can help.
There's so many different ways to work with balance to the end of life.
Karen Wylie (22:26):
Yes.
That helps balance us as well.
If we learn about any of the energetics that we're focused on giving to them and providing for them, it's also working to soothe us and our own approach to everything.
Gail Pope (22:42):
When I think back to all those years ago when Mariah died and the abject misery and actual pain that I experienced during that process was awful.
Whereas now I understand death better.
I have much more spiritual approach towards it.
(23:02):
Although my heart is breaking to say goodbye, I'm only saying goodbye to the physical.
So I'm able to be in a state of I don't know, what's the word?
I hate to keep using the word balance but it's more of understanding perhaps and being in the moment and having it to be about love.
Karen Wylie (23:22):
Right?
Gail Pope (23:22):
Yes, difficult subject.
Karen Wylie (23:25):
It is a difficult subject because if we aren't able to be at peace about them crossing over.
Then whatever angst we have, it has to affect them in some way.
You just think about how our animals are with us when they're healthy and they pick up on everything that's happening with us.
(23:46):
Every feeling we have, every thought we have most of the time and we know that carries over into human transition as well.
How many humans in their deathbed either hold on long enough for their a loved one, who's on the other side of the country, to get on a plane and get there to be at their bedside before they take their last breath.
(24:13):
Or conversely, there can be family members never leave in that room and somebody has to be with them all the time.
Then finally somebody has to get a cup of coffee or they have to take a nap and they leave and suddenly the person feels, "Okay, I can let go. They're not going to be traumatized by me dying with them here." So we know humans can make those decisions based on the emotions and thought processes of their loved ones around them.
(24:45):
I completely believe it's the same for our babies.
We may not know
Gail Pope (24:49):
Oh God, yes.
Karen Wylie (24:50):
Know what they think or feel or and they're not necessarily saying something to us but I totally believe that it's the same kind of circumstance.
Gail Pope (24:58):
That reminds me of, believe it or not, a story,
Karen Wylie (25:02):
Oh my goodness, from you?
Gail Pope (25:05):
I know.
Strange, huh?
But yes there must be lots of stories.
Thankfully, not as many as could be because my animals know very clearly that I give them permission to die when I'm not in the room, when I'm not close by.
I understand that when the time comes, if they need to step out, they will.
But I do tell them that I really would like to be with them.
(25:26):
But this takes me back to all those years ago when Harriet died and she was a cat.
She'd been winding down, getting close to the end of her life.
At that point I had her in a big wicker basket with a handle because I'm busy working.
So Harriet was coming with me, so I had her in this basket.
So there I am in the BrightHaven kitchen feeding the animals, and I needed to go into my pantry which was literally just across the room to, I think, I dunno, maybe get a can of food.
(25:58):
So I bent down and I talked to her and I stroked her and I said, "It's okay. I'm just going to be gone a moment." And so I stroked her and she was fine.
I went into the pantry, I came back, I put it down, and she'd gone.
It was maybe more than one minute, less than two and she just left her house and I was shocked, but not really.
(26:23):
I understood, but she did not want me to be there.
She needed to do this for herself.
I think sometimes our loving energy perhaps can be so strong and so forceful that an animal holds on and holds on.
When in actual fact, if we give them a just a little space, they can let go and go.
(26:43):
Hard being a human.
Karen Wylie (26:46):
Yes, we think through too many things rather than just feeling into it.
We try to anticipate every scenario and what we could do or should do.
Gail Pope (26:57):
Yes, I think there are tons and tons more interesting stories, but maybe not for today.
Otherwise I'll never stop.
Karen Wylie (27:04):
I don't have as many as you but I've got a few as well.
I think what we can do is just key off of this last part of what you were saying and defer it to a future podcast conversation because you were doing with your pets the same thing I would do, which would be trying to prepare them for the fact that they looked like they were dying and "I'll be okay if you need to go without me." and you were doing that too.
(27:32):
Let's plan to do another conversation about how we can prepare our pets to transition and also help ourselves prepare for their transition.
Gail Pope (27:42):
Do you mean it the other way around?
They're perfectly fine and I think it's them preparing us.
Karen Wylie (27:49):
I think you're absolutely right.
But the way I go about it is I'm thinking of them because here's what's going to happen and so forth.
We'll see, we're already talking about it.
We'll definitely take this topic a little further.
So thank you as always, Gail for a lovely conversation about something that matters a great deal to both of us.
I know it matters a great deal to every pet parent because we love them in our lives and cherish their lives even when we know that they will ultimately leave us.
(28:20):
But learning what we can about that leaving process can help all of us as well.
We thank you for being with us today and we hope that you'll return to peace of mind for pet parents for our next episodes.
And we will do one on preparing ourselves for our pets transition while we also prepare them.
(28:42):
Thank you all.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (28:44):
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(29:20):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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