July 10, 2025 • 28 mins
Why teaching about dying, hospice, and the natural cycle of life and death matters to pets, parents, and professionals.
In this candid conversation, Gail and Karen explore the hidden gaps in veterinary education, especially around end-of-life care, the natural dying process, and how our cultural fear of death has shaped the way veterinarians are trained.
From hospice and palliative care to ritual, grief, and honoring the sacred moment of passing, this episode invites listeners to consider: What if we redefined how we teach and talk about death — not just in veterinary schools, but in society as a whole?
Whether you're a pet parent, a veterinarian, or someone caring for a beloved animal near the end of life, this heartfelt discussion offers perspective, compassion, and a path forward.
Includes:
- Pet loss
- Hospice and natural death
- Euthanasia culture
- Veterinary education gaps
- Cultural disconnection from death
- Compassion fatigue and mental health
📌 Related Resource - Blog Post: "Rethinking Veterinary Education: Why Training for Death and Dying Matters"
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
📌Learn More from BrightHaven Caregiver Academy For free resources, upcoming workshops, and a supportive community dedicated to navigating life with your aging or ill pet:
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📌Disclaimer: This content is for educational purposes and not a substitute for professional advice. As always, remember that our insights come from decades of caregiving experience. For any medical questions, your veterinarian is the best resource.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my friend Gail Pope.
Today we're going to explore a question that we've recently been asked in several different forms by some of our clients about death and dying in vet school
(01:17):
and that was framed as a kind of frustration:
"Why aren't they trained about death and dying in school?"
Gail and I thought we would take that on today and try to explore a few of the issues.
Gail, do you want to start or you want me to start?
Gail Pope (01:34):
No, I'll start.
I can ramble on about anything and I think it's a really a really interesting question especially as my granddaughter's going through vet school right now.
She comes from a BrightHaven background and this question hadn't occurred to me but absolutely true.
She will learn about euthanasia.
She will learn the kindest way for a life to end.
(01:58):
But there's a piece before that which is hopefully old age, whether you're young or old.
It's the gradual winding down of the being towards the end of life, which becomes dying, which then becomes death.
So in order to be a doctor or a veterinarian, it seems to me that this part in the middle is really important to learn about how the body changes physically and emotionally towards death.
(02:33):
But I think we say it so often, we live in a culture now that has become scared of death.
It doesn't understand it, it doesn't honor it.
Some of us do but we still don't quite really understand it.
Also, it does carry some fear with it.
I think for anybody and everybody, whoever you are, but the more you practice acceptance and you work on what you believe in and what you don't believe in— you find your own comfort level.
(03:02):
But I think if veterinarians and physicians were taught more about this precious time before death occurs and the dying process itself, it would help practitioners to be able to help their people help their animals better.
That's my first thought.
Karen Wylie (03:23):
All the while they'd be able to help a whole lot better.
I think as you were talking, I'm going to be curious too to hear how Emma experiences her vet school semesters as she goes.
Because she has been raised with the BrightHaven model and supporting natural transition.
(03:46):
So I'll be interested in that.
I think culturally and this is tied into that, those who enter veterinary school already have a cultural predisposition towards how death will be handled because they're humans and they have seen how humans embrace or don't embrace death.
Gail Pope (04:12):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (04:13):
As we've talked about previously in human hospice care, there's the problem they call the late to care problem.
That is when
a family or the patient themselves doesn't want to acknowledge that there's nothing else that can be done to treat or to cure.
(04:38):
That death ultimately is the next thing on the horizon.
The average amount of time from when a hospice patient is admitted to hospice and when they die, as of two years ago, it was six days.
So as a family and the patient put it off as long as possible for a variety of reasons, which of course we can't know what all of those are.
(04:59):
But my point here in bringing that into the conversation is that veterinarians are people too.
So they have absorbed a lot of our cultural views on death and dying for humans.
So then when they enter into vet school, they're presented with a priority on the physical sciences.
(05:21):
Everything is about identifying illnesses, recommending treatments, and fixing problems.
The goal to save a life is extraordinary and a wonderful goal.
Anytime we bring our babies to a veterinarian, we certainly want them to have that goal— because that's our goal.
(05:43):
But when they run out of treatments to recommend, that's where the trouble seems to come in.
There seems to be a huge gap at that point.
Gail Pope (05:55):
Exactly, exactly.
Karen Wylie (05:58):
Not just understanding the biological process of the dying process for an animal, but also they don't appear to receive much training in what we'll call the "softer skills" of how to support a pet parent in understanding the process.
Certainly, I've only had one veterinarian who ever talked about what death is going to look like on a natural basis and that was 30 years ago.
(06:30):
So, it doesn't appear that is even— certainly not a semester in school.
I'm not even sure that they even cover it as a class.
Gail Pope (06:40):
No, I certainly haven't heard.
I'm just sitting here thinking more and more, "What a strange world we live in where we deny the transitions in and out of life. We deny the detail of it", which is very silly, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (06:58):
It's almost like
the "softer people skills" of understanding what a pet parent wants to do or does not want to do for their pet.
Once they reach that point of it appears that there's no other treatments available, there's that "Now what?" question.
(07:21):
It's like there's an automatic answer which is we want to prevent suffering.
Gail Pope (07:25):
However, what we are missing— we are missing that bit in the middle.
The actual question is, "Why are veterinarians not trained in school about death and dying?"
We've actually gone round in a circle but now we've come back to, "Why aren't we all trained to understand death and dying? Why should vets be trained?"
(07:47):
And I don't mean they shouldn't, I think it would be wonderful to help them help their clients.
But as children growing up, that's where it should all begin— in schools.
All schools, it doesn't have to be vet school.
The process of birthing and the process of dying if they were honored as part of life then kids growing up wouldn't have all these misunderstandings and scary feelings about death and birth.
(08:17):
So interesting questions— to say, "Why should vets be the ones to be taught?"
We should all know.
Karen Wylie (08:24):
We should all know but when we started out just talking about the late to care problem with humans not choosing hospice care because that means that our loved one is dying.
We haven't wanted to even admit that even though they may be dying tomorrow or five days from now, this is the first time we're going to acknowledge this.
(08:47):
"No, we don't want to do that." And it really does deny that death is a natural process for all of us.
It's something to be put off as long as possible which I guess I can agree with that one.
I think we want to enjoy our lives as long as possible.
Gail Pope (09:03):
That's where the beauty of palliative care, I think, comes along because yes, we do want to deny it but we also want to support it.
So I think, in palliative and hospice care, this is where these two worlds come together to palliate symptoms either, conventionally or holistically, to create the best life possible in each and every day even though the trajectory is towards the end of that life.
(09:36):
Whereas in purely conventional care, I'm talking humans as well as animals I don't have a bias here, it's the focus on just making those symptoms go away.
So everything has become so much more medicalized— four legs or two legs until I guess euthanasia can become the obvious choice.
(09:59):
At that point, the body has been through so much that euthanasia probably is the kindest way.
Not always, obviously, but sometimes.
Karen Wylie (10:10):
Sometimes, certainly that's true with humans as well.
Although, we generally put up every obstacle to choosing euthanasia for ourselves or a loved one, whereas we schedule death for our pets.
Which is a very cold way to look at it but it is in fact what we do.
Gail Pope (10:30):
Also don't forget, quite a few countries now do have legal euthanasia for humans.
I mean we do in various states.
In fact, that's reminding me of a time when a lady who used to volunteer for BrightHaven actually chose to take her own life.
She had two doctors to sign.
It's a longer story but she invited me to go to the celebration of her life before the following day when she was taking her life.
(10:59):
It was a heartbreaking, exciting, mixed, muddled, very strange event.
But she knew exactly what she wanted.
She knew what was going on with her body.
She was an exceedingly intelligent lady— a scholar.
She made the decision and everyone in her family and her friends had to honor it.
(11:23):
They were fine.
She wanted me there, I think, because she saw me as someone in the middle that could perhaps help those that were really struggling.
So it was very difficult but it was also very beautiful to see how she was dealing with the situation of the end of her life.
Wow!
That's a memory.
Karen Wylie (11:41):
Yes.
Sounds like someone who taught a lot of people through her decisions and chose not to go the medicalized death route.
That's where I think our veterinarians are trapped because so much of veterinary medicine is based on human medicine in terms of the drugs that are used in humans are then tested out and adapted many times for our pets and in various treatments.
(12:09):
It's amazing now to be aware of the various cancer treatments, the chemotherapy, all the specialists in veterinary medicine now that we have and that's an area of veterinary medicine that's growing.
Not the general practitioners that we would see in our clinics but the specialties.
It is that medicalized information and the approach that has taken over in so many ways.
(12:35):
I think it's not as common for veterinarians to
make sure they understand what the pet parent is willing to do and not do.
They have to give credit to my veterinarian with Mr. Hope and I think I talked about this on one of our podcasts but I don't remember which one if we did.
(12:58):
But it was right at the point where he was there for his monthly checkup.
It was in his last three months of life.
She thought she heard some moisture in his lungs.
So she wanted to check.
She said, "It's barely there but I think that's what I'm hearing. I think we need to do x-rays because if I know it's there or I know how much is there then I know what suggestions I can make to you."
(13:25):
And I said, "Okay."
So she did the x-rays and then she came back and she said, "He's not ready to leave the planet anytime soon but there is a little bit of fluid in his lungs. So I want to start him on Lasix."
And I said, "Okay, great." That's a common diuretic that humans use too when there's a heart disease in play.
(13:45):
But my response at that point, realizing, "Okay. His lungs are now affected which really lets us know his heart is starting to have a little more trouble doing its job."
He had Cardiomyopathy.
So this was not a surprising progression.
Because of the Lasix and so forth, I said, "Are we doing everything we can for him?"
(14:09):
She looked at me and she said, "I just want to make sure we could hospitalize him and if we did that, there's a lot of other things we can do. But I wasn't recommending that to you because I didn't see that as the direction you wanted to go in."
I just looked at her and said, "You're absolutely right. I want him at home."
And she said, "Okay, then we are doing the most we can do for him, given what you want to do." Now we were able to have that conversation— it took me longer to relate that story than it did for us to have that conversation in the exam room.
(14:45):
But it was based on getting to know how I approached other problems with my pets.
I don't think a lot of veterinarians explore those boundaries with their clients.
Gail Pope (14:57):
Let's face it, a lot of clients don't have that kind of knowledge.
So they wouldn't even open that kind of conversation.
If their vet opened it they wouldn't understand necessarily.
They would just accept what's the best thing for me to do.
It is difficult.
It's difficult because we're all different.
(15:18):
We all have different ways of approaching things but if we don't have the basic knowledge then we don't even see those lanes as being open.
Karen Wylie (15:27):
Of course that's one of the reasons we even started BCA.
Gail Pope (15:32):
Yes, that's true.
Karen Wylie (15:34):
this podcast and so many of the other educational approaches that we're taking because the pet parent is often in a position of not understanding what's happening with their pet— even from the diagnosis on.
Certainly when we get to the point of there are no more treatments to fix the problem, that's where it seems to—
(16:01):
almost only one road seems to be seen as the path.
Gail Pope (16:07):
I guess what we're heading towards or going round in the big circle but we are coming back to actually hospice care.
Because if more people understood truly what was embraced under the umbrella of the hospice approach.
You might notice that I have my animal hospice group T-shirt on today.
Karen Wylie (16:29):
You're a walking publicity for public relations of animal hospice.
Gail Pope (16:32):
I think I've probably bored everybody with this story anyway, so I won't really go into it, but when I was first approached with the word hospice and asked to join a group that was starting for animal hospice.
I said, "Absolutely not.
I'm not interested in hospice.
It just doesn't touch my world.
It's all about death and dying.
Here at BrightHaven we're all about life and living.
(16:54):
So bye."
Then I started to learn and here I am today because hospice is such a beautiful chapter.
It can be a chapter rather than a few days or a couple of weeks.
So many people of all walks of life tend to think of it as close to the end.
"I can't think about that because he'll be dead next week" that kind of thing and we need to bring that part back so that people understand that both they and their animals can have a beautiful, peaceful journey towards the end of life.
(17:25):
They can still travel, they can still have fun with their family, but the palliation— to me it's more about balance is less of the palliating symptoms, but finding a good balance for daily life.
Karen Wylie (17:40):
And that's a black hole.
It appears to be a black hole for most veterinarians.
I think that's maybe a more fair way to phrase it.
I don't know how many veterinarians have provided hospice care for their own pets to be able to understand the process.
Because if they don't do that and learn from their own experiences and what they see and how they're able to support their own pets, then I think it'd be very difficult, if not impossible for them to support any of us who want to provide that hospice care to our pets.
Gail Pope (18:18):
Yes, that's true.
That's true.
It all comes down to everything comes down to knowledge.
What do we know?
What do we not know?
So the more education for practitioners of all sorts to be able to help the people who come to them for help is what's at the root of all of it.
We all need to learn more, know more, and do more.
Karen Wylie (18:39):
Yes, and although we always remind everyone that you and I are not veterinarians.
We have decades, several decades, each of us in caregiving for our own pets.
But it's that understanding of caregiving without the black bag to turn to.
(19:04):
I think veterinarians who handle the end of life of their own pets probably allow a little bit more time because they have the euthanasia solution and the injection, and they're in total control of when they feel they need to intervene.
Those of us who are caregiving, we're at home.
What we need to learn about and be able to do is different because we don't have those letters after our names.
(19:33):
We don't have the black bag at home to intervene.
So our tools, our toolbox is very different from what a veterinarian could provide for themselves and their own pets.
Gail Pope (19:44):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (19:45):
So I often hear about them euthanizing their own pets at home which is probably what gave rise to mobile vets and end of life veterinarians coming to homes to provide end of life services.
Again, this is a cultural thing like we were talking about when we started out that veterinarians are people too.
(20:06):
They're influenced by the cultural training they've absorbed over the years of how humans treat death and dying.
But they've also been conditioned, I think, partly in veterinary school or maybe largely in veterinary school, depending on where they go to be emotionally detached from the process of death and dying.
(20:32):
To disconnect themselves from the euthanasia decisions that are made or the decisions they recommend to be made by the pet parent.
Because of course we're seeing an epidemic of veterinarian suicides.
Compassion fatigue is the term that's used because some vets are euthanizing anywhere from 3 to 10 pets a day in their clinic.
(21:02):
None of them went to vet school because they wanted to be euthanizing pets.
For all of us, we love our babies in whatever aspect of pet care we get drawn into.
Just like you and I doing this and trying to make sense of our experiences.
We do it because we love our pets.
We love the ones that we've lost over the years.
(21:23):
We love the ones we have now.
Veterinarians were attracted to going to vet school to save animals, to help animals.
So the predicament we have these days with so many new challenges.
We have the rising numbers of feral pets that are being abandoned.
(21:45):
We have the rising cost of vet care where people who love their pets don't have the money to pursue a lot of the treatments being recommended and so the only option that they're being shown is euthanasia.
I can't help but wonder if more of that's understood about the natural dying process and which diseases or constellation of conditions and diseases allow for a painless natural death or one that can be palliated and pain-free by being hospice supported.
(22:23):
I have to wonder if the mental health of our veterinarians wouldn't be much supported and improved if they learned more about our approach to life and death than the one they're taught.
Gail Pope (22:37):
Yes.
Gosh, this is such a big subject, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (22:41):
But did you think we were going to be able to do this one in 11 minutes?
Gail Pope (22:45):
I've got so many other thoughts racing through my mind
(23:05):
Mobile veterinarians are starting to step into this and to realize the beauty of being able to offer their clients these kinds of services.
To be with them as almost a part of the family to help them to honor their animals even though they're going through the process of euthanasia.
That popped into my mind because you were talking about suicide and veterinary suicide and it's understandable sadly.
(23:33):
Who could not be heartbroken at the end of every day?
It's just terrible.
However if you can actually embrace the honoring, the rituals, and you can take the time to make it a better experience, and I know some veterinarians are actually incorporating this kind of thing into their practice.
(23:55):
But it costs money and most large practices particularly don't have the time and the resources to be able to incorporate it.
So maybe every veterinary office should have a partner— a mobile veterinarian who is actually able to offer these services, take the couple of hours that may be needed, and actually honor their patients with what would be a kinder way of euthanasia.
(24:23):
I can't quite think how I would say it.
I'm sure it just seems like the honor, the ritual surrounding death would be something to really seriously bring to the situation and at home too.
Karen Wylie (24:37):
A bigger context than the euthanasia procedure.
It's wider and bigger.
Gail Pope (24:42):
It's getting it out of the hospital or the clinic and into the home which is where birth and death originated.
It'd be lovely to be able to go back to those times and to be able to have birth and death happening in our own homes rather than medicalized in a hospital of some sort.
Karen Wylie (25:02):
So be so disconnected and detached from it all.
I think one thing I would add to this is that I wish, and I guess this is a wish because I don't think it's happening yet or is not as widespread as I think it needs to be, but I'd really love to see veterinarians receiving more training
(25:25):
in what "suffering" really is and how much suffering can be tolerated.
Because of course the suffering is usually when euthanasia is recommended.
When the situation can't be cured.
The illness or condition cannot be cured.
They've run out of options for treatment.
(25:48):
Then the only thing they have to offer and recommend from a medical perspective is euthanasia.
But euthanasia is typically couched as "Well we want to prevent suffering."
Yet you and I know that there are quite a number of diseases and conditions, and yes, it does depend on each individual pet, but there are so many situations where there is no suffering in a natural death.
Gail Pope (26:17):
And I think you are stepping into another podcast, dear.
Suffering...
Karen Wylie (26:21):
I was going to finish with this thought.
I was really going to finish with it.
I wasn't going to go much further but one...
Gail Pope (26:27):
such a huge subject.
Karen Wylie (26:28):
It is a huge subject but again, it links back to the frustration pet parents have about feeling pushed into euthanasia because there is not as much knowledge about any other form of death and dying.
If euthanasia is the recommendation of choice to prevent suffering, as you and I have talked about, let's deal with suffering if and when it happens.
(26:55):
In order to prevent any suffering because there can still be an awful lot of life lived both by our pets and ourselves and our families with them.
And as you said, this is a very big topic but with the number of animals that we've had over the years we certainly have worked with a lot of veterinarians and understand some of their own frustrations and wishes for their profession and for themselves.
(27:20):
So perhaps we will see some of these changes that we're talking about today.
At least I certainly hope so.
Gail Pope (27:25):
Definitely.
Karen Wylie (27:27):
We thank you as always for being with us.
Please do drop us a line if you have any suggestions for us of what topics you would like us to discuss because our topic today was suggested to us by several people with different kinds of wordings but basically the same essence.
So we're happy to chat about it today.
I hope you'll leave comments, reviews on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to our podcast or watching on YouTube that helps us show up in the algorithms that you and I are learning more and more about the more we do.
(28:03):
As always, we thank you for being with us and look forward to seeing you next time.
Bye-bye.
Gail Pope (28:09):
Goodbye.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
(28:29):
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
(28:53):
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my friend Gail Pope.
Today we're going to explore a question that we've recently been asked in several different forms by some of our clients about death and dying in vet school
(01:17):
and that was framed as a kind of frustration:
"Why aren't they trained about death and dying in school?"
Gail and I thought we would take that on today and try to explore a few of the issues.
Gail, do you want to start or you want me to start?
Gail Pope (01:34):
No, I'll start.
I can ramble on about anything and I think it's a really a really interesting question especially as my granddaughter's going through vet school right now.
She comes from a BrightHaven background and this question hadn't occurred to me but absolutely true.
She will learn about euthanasia.
She will learn the kindest way for a life to end.
(01:58):
But there's a piece before that which is hopefully old age, whether you're young or old.
It's the gradual winding down of the being towards the end of life, which becomes dying, which then becomes death.
So in order to be a doctor or a veterinarian, it seems to me that this part in the middle is really important to learn about how the body changes physically and emotionally towards death.
(02:33):
But I think we say it so often, we live in a culture now that has become scared of death.
It doesn't understand it, it doesn't honor it.
Some of us do but we still don't quite really understand it.
Also, it does carry some fear with it.
I think for anybody and everybody, whoever you are, but the more you practice acceptance and you work on what you believe in and what you don't believe in— you find your own comfort level.
(03:02):
But I think if veterinarians and physicians were taught more about this precious time before death occurs and the dying process itself, it would help practitioners to be able to help their people help their animals better.
That's my first thought.
Karen Wylie (03:23):
All the while they'd be able to help a whole lot better.
I think as you were talking, I'm going to be curious too to hear how Emma experiences her vet school semesters as she goes.
Because she has been raised with the BrightHaven model and supporting natural transition.
(03:46):
So I'll be interested in that.
I think culturally and this is tied into that, those who enter veterinary school already have a cultural predisposition towards how death will be handled because they're humans and they have seen how humans embrace or don't embrace death.
Gail Pope (04:12):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (04:13):
As we've talked about previously in human hospice care, there's the problem they call the late to care problem.
That is when
a family or the patient themselves doesn't want to acknowledge that there's nothing else that can be done to treat or to cure.
(04:38):
That death ultimately is the next thing on the horizon.
The average amount of time from when a hospice patient is admitted to hospice and when they die, as of two years ago, it was six days.
So as a family and the patient put it off as long as possible for a variety of reasons, which of course we can't know what all of those are.
(04:59):
But my point here in bringing that into the conversation is that veterinarians are people too.
So they have absorbed a lot of our cultural views on death and dying for humans.
So then when they enter into vet school, they're presented with a priority on the physical sciences.
(05:21):
Everything is about identifying illnesses, recommending treatments, and fixing problems.
The goal to save a life is extraordinary and a wonderful goal.
Anytime we bring our babies to a veterinarian, we certainly want them to have that goal— because that's our goal.
(05:43):
But when they run out of treatments to recommend, that's where the trouble seems to come in.
There seems to be a huge gap at that point.
Gail Pope (05:55):
Exactly, exactly.
Karen Wylie (05:58):
Not just understanding the biological process of the dying process for an animal, but also they don't appear to receive much training in what we'll call the "softer skills" of how to support a pet parent in understanding the process.
Certainly, I've only had one veterinarian who ever talked about what death is going to look like on a natural basis and that was 30 years ago.
(06:30):
So, it doesn't appear that is even— certainly not a semester in school.
I'm not even sure that they even cover it as a class.
Gail Pope (06:40):
No, I certainly haven't heard.
I'm just sitting here thinking more and more, "What a strange world we live in where we deny the transitions in and out of life. We deny the detail of it", which is very silly, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (06:58):
It's almost like
the "softer people skills" of understanding what a pet parent wants to do or does not want to do for their pet.
Once they reach that point of it appears that there's no other treatments available, there's that "Now what?" question.
(07:21):
It's like there's an automatic answer which is we want to prevent suffering.
Gail Pope (07:25):
However, what we are missing— we are missing that bit in the middle.
The actual question is, "Why are veterinarians not trained in school about death and dying?"
We've actually gone round in a circle but now we've come back to, "Why aren't we all trained to understand death and dying? Why should vets be trained?"
(07:47):
And I don't mean they shouldn't, I think it would be wonderful to help them help their clients.
But as children growing up, that's where it should all begin— in schools.
All schools, it doesn't have to be vet school.
The process of birthing and the process of dying if they were honored as part of life then kids growing up wouldn't have all these misunderstandings and scary feelings about death and birth.
(08:17):
So interesting questions— to say, "Why should vets be the ones to be taught?"
We should all know.
Karen Wylie (08:24):
We should all know but when we started out just talking about the late to care problem with humans not choosing hospice care because that means that our loved one is dying.
We haven't wanted to even admit that even though they may be dying tomorrow or five days from now, this is the first time we're going to acknowledge this.
(08:47):
"No, we don't want to do that." And it really does deny that death is a natural process for all of us.
It's something to be put off as long as possible which I guess I can agree with that one.
I think we want to enjoy our lives as long as possible.
Gail Pope (09:03):
That's where the beauty of palliative care, I think, comes along because yes, we do want to deny it but we also want to support it.
So I think, in palliative and hospice care, this is where these two worlds come together to palliate symptoms either, conventionally or holistically, to create the best life possible in each and every day even though the trajectory is towards the end of that life.
(09:36):
Whereas in purely conventional care, I'm talking humans as well as animals I don't have a bias here, it's the focus on just making those symptoms go away.
So everything has become so much more medicalized— four legs or two legs until I guess euthanasia can become the obvious choice.
(09:59):
At that point, the body has been through so much that euthanasia probably is the kindest way.
Not always, obviously, but sometimes.
Karen Wylie (10:10):
Sometimes, certainly that's true with humans as well.
Although, we generally put up every obstacle to choosing euthanasia for ourselves or a loved one, whereas we schedule death for our pets.
Which is a very cold way to look at it but it is in fact what we do.
Gail Pope (10:30):
Also don't forget, quite a few countries now do have legal euthanasia for humans.
I mean we do in various states.
In fact, that's reminding me of a time when a lady who used to volunteer for BrightHaven actually chose to take her own life.
She had two doctors to sign.
It's a longer story but she invited me to go to the celebration of her life before the following day when she was taking her life.
(10:59):
It was a heartbreaking, exciting, mixed, muddled, very strange event.
But she knew exactly what she wanted.
She knew what was going on with her body.
She was an exceedingly intelligent lady— a scholar.
She made the decision and everyone in her family and her friends had to honor it.
(11:23):
They were fine.
She wanted me there, I think, because she saw me as someone in the middle that could perhaps help those that were really struggling.
So it was very difficult but it was also very beautiful to see how she was dealing with the situation of the end of her life.
Wow!
That's a memory.
Karen Wylie (11:41):
Yes.
Sounds like someone who taught a lot of people through her decisions and chose not to go the medicalized death route.
That's where I think our veterinarians are trapped because so much of veterinary medicine is based on human medicine in terms of the drugs that are used in humans are then tested out and adapted many times for our pets and in various treatments.
(12:09):
It's amazing now to be aware of the various cancer treatments, the chemotherapy, all the specialists in veterinary medicine now that we have and that's an area of veterinary medicine that's growing.
Not the general practitioners that we would see in our clinics but the specialties.
It is that medicalized information and the approach that has taken over in so many ways.
(12:35):
I think it's not as common for veterinarians to
make sure they understand what the pet parent is willing to do and not do.
They have to give credit to my veterinarian with Mr. Hope and I think I talked about this on one of our podcasts but I don't remember which one if we did.
(12:58):
But it was right at the point where he was there for his monthly checkup.
It was in his last three months of life.
She thought she heard some moisture in his lungs.
So she wanted to check.
She said, "It's barely there but I think that's what I'm hearing. I think we need to do x-rays because if I know it's there or I know how much is there then I know what suggestions I can make to you."
(13:25):
And I said, "Okay."
So she did the x-rays and then she came back and she said, "He's not ready to leave the planet anytime soon but there is a little bit of fluid in his lungs. So I want to start him on Lasix."
And I said, "Okay, great." That's a common diuretic that humans use too when there's a heart disease in play.
(13:45):
But my response at that point, realizing, "Okay. His lungs are now affected which really lets us know his heart is starting to have a little more trouble doing its job."
He had Cardiomyopathy.
So this was not a surprising progression.
Because of the Lasix and so forth, I said, "Are we doing everything we can for him?"
(14:09):
She looked at me and she said, "I just want to make sure we could hospitalize him and if we did that, there's a lot of other things we can do. But I wasn't recommending that to you because I didn't see that as the direction you wanted to go in."
I just looked at her and said, "You're absolutely right. I want him at home."
And she said, "Okay, then we are doing the most we can do for him, given what you want to do." Now we were able to have that conversation— it took me longer to relate that story than it did for us to have that conversation in the exam room.
(14:45):
But it was based on getting to know how I approached other problems with my pets.
I don't think a lot of veterinarians explore those boundaries with their clients.
Gail Pope (14:57):
Let's face it, a lot of clients don't have that kind of knowledge.
So they wouldn't even open that kind of conversation.
If their vet opened it they wouldn't understand necessarily.
They would just accept what's the best thing for me to do.
It is difficult.
It's difficult because we're all different.
(15:18):
We all have different ways of approaching things but if we don't have the basic knowledge then we don't even see those lanes as being open.
Karen Wylie (15:27):
Of course that's one of the reasons we even started BCA.
Gail Pope (15:32):
Yes, that's true.
Karen Wylie (15:34):
this podcast and so many of the other educational approaches that we're taking because the pet parent is often in a position of not understanding what's happening with their pet— even from the diagnosis on.
Certainly when we get to the point of there are no more treatments to fix the problem, that's where it seems to—
(16:01):
almost only one road seems to be seen as the path.
Gail Pope (16:07):
I guess what we're heading towards or going round in the big circle but we are coming back to actually hospice care.
Because if more people understood truly what was embraced under the umbrella of the hospice approach.
You might notice that I have my animal hospice group T-shirt on today.
Karen Wylie (16:29):
You're a walking publicity for public relations of animal hospice.
Gail Pope (16:32):
I think I've probably bored everybody with this story anyway, so I won't really go into it, but when I was first approached with the word hospice and asked to join a group that was starting for animal hospice.
I said, "Absolutely not.
I'm not interested in hospice.
It just doesn't touch my world.
It's all about death and dying.
Here at BrightHaven we're all about life and living.
(16:54):
So bye."
Then I started to learn and here I am today because hospice is such a beautiful chapter.
It can be a chapter rather than a few days or a couple of weeks.
So many people of all walks of life tend to think of it as close to the end.
"I can't think about that because he'll be dead next week" that kind of thing and we need to bring that part back so that people understand that both they and their animals can have a beautiful, peaceful journey towards the end of life.
(17:25):
They can still travel, they can still have fun with their family, but the palliation— to me it's more about balance is less of the palliating symptoms, but finding a good balance for daily life.
Karen Wylie (17:40):
And that's a black hole.
It appears to be a black hole for most veterinarians.
I think that's maybe a more fair way to phrase it.
I don't know how many veterinarians have provided hospice care for their own pets to be able to understand the process.
Because if they don't do that and learn from their own experiences and what they see and how they're able to support their own pets, then I think it'd be very difficult, if not impossible for them to support any of us who want to provide that hospice care to our pets.
Gail Pope (18:18):
Yes, that's true.
That's true.
It all comes down to everything comes down to knowledge.
What do we know?
What do we not know?
So the more education for practitioners of all sorts to be able to help the people who come to them for help is what's at the root of all of it.
We all need to learn more, know more, and do more.
Karen Wylie (18:39):
Yes, and although we always remind everyone that you and I are not veterinarians.
We have decades, several decades, each of us in caregiving for our own pets.
But it's that understanding of caregiving without the black bag to turn to.
(19:04):
I think veterinarians who handle the end of life of their own pets probably allow a little bit more time because they have the euthanasia solution and the injection, and they're in total control of when they feel they need to intervene.
Those of us who are caregiving, we're at home.
What we need to learn about and be able to do is different because we don't have those letters after our names.
(19:33):
We don't have the black bag at home to intervene.
So our tools, our toolbox is very different from what a veterinarian could provide for themselves and their own pets.
Gail Pope (19:44):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (19:45):
So I often hear about them euthanizing their own pets at home which is probably what gave rise to mobile vets and end of life veterinarians coming to homes to provide end of life services.
Again, this is a cultural thing like we were talking about when we started out that veterinarians are people too.
(20:06):
They're influenced by the cultural training they've absorbed over the years of how humans treat death and dying.
But they've also been conditioned, I think, partly in veterinary school or maybe largely in veterinary school, depending on where they go to be emotionally detached from the process of death and dying.
(20:32):
To disconnect themselves from the euthanasia decisions that are made or the decisions they recommend to be made by the pet parent.
Because of course we're seeing an epidemic of veterinarian suicides.
Compassion fatigue is the term that's used because some vets are euthanizing anywhere from 3 to 10 pets a day in their clinic.
(21:02):
None of them went to vet school because they wanted to be euthanizing pets.
For all of us, we love our babies in whatever aspect of pet care we get drawn into.
Just like you and I doing this and trying to make sense of our experiences.
We do it because we love our pets.
We love the ones that we've lost over the years.
(21:23):
We love the ones we have now.
Veterinarians were attracted to going to vet school to save animals, to help animals.
So the predicament we have these days with so many new challenges.
We have the rising numbers of feral pets that are being abandoned.
(21:45):
We have the rising cost of vet care where people who love their pets don't have the money to pursue a lot of the treatments being recommended and so the only option that they're being shown is euthanasia.
I can't help but wonder if more of that's understood about the natural dying process and which diseases or constellation of conditions and diseases allow for a painless natural death or one that can be palliated and pain-free by being hospice supported.
(22:23):
I have to wonder if the mental health of our veterinarians wouldn't be much supported and improved if they learned more about our approach to life and death than the one they're taught.
Gail Pope (22:37):
Yes.
Gosh, this is such a big subject, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (22:41):
But did you think we were going to be able to do this one in 11 minutes?
Gail Pope (22:45):
I've got so many other thoughts racing through my mind
(23:05):
Mobile veterinarians are starting to step into this and to realize the beauty of being able to offer their clients these kinds of services.
To be with them as almost a part of the family to help them to honor their animals even though they're going through the process of euthanasia.
That popped into my mind because you were talking about suicide and veterinary suicide and it's understandable sadly.
(23:33):
Who could not be heartbroken at the end of every day?
It's just terrible.
However if you can actually embrace the honoring, the rituals, and you can take the time to make it a better experience, and I know some veterinarians are actually incorporating this kind of thing into their practice.
(23:55):
But it costs money and most large practices particularly don't have the time and the resources to be able to incorporate it.
So maybe every veterinary office should have a partner— a mobile veterinarian who is actually able to offer these services, take the couple of hours that may be needed, and actually honor their patients with what would be a kinder way of euthanasia.
(24:23):
I can't quite think how I would say it.
I'm sure it just seems like the honor, the ritual surrounding death would be something to really seriously bring to the situation and at home too.
Karen Wylie (24:37):
A bigger context than the euthanasia procedure.
It's wider and bigger.
Gail Pope (24:42):
It's getting it out of the hospital or the clinic and into the home which is where birth and death originated.
It'd be lovely to be able to go back to those times and to be able to have birth and death happening in our own homes rather than medicalized in a hospital of some sort.
Karen Wylie (25:02):
So be so disconnected and detached from it all.
I think one thing I would add to this is that I wish, and I guess this is a wish because I don't think it's happening yet or is not as widespread as I think it needs to be, but I'd really love to see veterinarians receiving more training
(25:25):
in what "suffering" really is and how much suffering can be tolerated.
Because of course the suffering is usually when euthanasia is recommended.
When the situation can't be cured.
The illness or condition cannot be cured.
They've run out of options for treatment.
(25:48):
Then the only thing they have to offer and recommend from a medical perspective is euthanasia.
But euthanasia is typically couched as "Well we want to prevent suffering."
Yet you and I know that there are quite a number of diseases and conditions, and yes, it does depend on each individual pet, but there are so many situations where there is no suffering in a natural death.
Gail Pope (26:17):
And I think you are stepping into another podcast, dear.
Suffering...
Karen Wylie (26:21):
I was going to finish with this thought.
I was really going to finish with it.
I wasn't going to go much further but one...
Gail Pope (26:27):
such a huge subject.
Karen Wylie (26:28):
It is a huge subject but again, it links back to the frustration pet parents have about feeling pushed into euthanasia because there is not as much knowledge about any other form of death and dying.
If euthanasia is the recommendation of choice to prevent suffering, as you and I have talked about, let's deal with suffering if and when it happens.
(26:55):
In order to prevent any suffering because there can still be an awful lot of life lived both by our pets and ourselves and our families with them.
And as you said, this is a very big topic but with the number of animals that we've had over the years we certainly have worked with a lot of veterinarians and understand some of their own frustrations and wishes for their profession and for themselves.
(27:20):
So perhaps we will see some of these changes that we're talking about today.
At least I certainly hope so.
Gail Pope (27:25):
Definitely.
Karen Wylie (27:27):
We thank you as always for being with us.
Please do drop us a line if you have any suggestions for us of what topics you would like us to discuss because our topic today was suggested to us by several people with different kinds of wordings but basically the same essence.
So we're happy to chat about it today.
I hope you'll leave comments, reviews on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to our podcast or watching on YouTube that helps us show up in the algorithms that you and I are learning more and more about the more we do.
(28:03):
As always, we thank you for being with us and look forward to seeing you next time.
Bye-bye.
Gail Pope (28:09):
Goodbye.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
(28:29):
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
(28:53):
Take care.
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