June 19, 2025 • 32 mins
What do you do when your veterinarian makes a recommendation that doesn’t feel quite right? In this episode of Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, Gail Pope and Karen Wylie explore what it means to listen with care, ask thoughtful questions, and stand strong for your beloved animal — especially when your intuition says something’s not right.
Together, they share tips for preparing for veterinary visits, communicating clearly under emotional pressure, and advocating respectfully for your pet’s individual needs. From handling diagnostic suggestions to navigating big decisions like treatment plans or second opinions, this honest conversation offers insight, compassion, and practical guidance.
Whether you're caring for a senior pet, facing a life-changing diagnosis, or just trying to understand your role in veterinary conversations more clearly, this episode will help you feel more confident and supported.
📌 Related Resource: "Preparing for Your Vet Clinic Visit" PDF - To help you feel prepared, empowered, and confident in advocating for your pet, we’ve created this guide and planning sheet.
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here with my wonderful friend, Gail Pope.
Today's topic is one that touches all of us at some point or another.
That is when our veterinarian's advice may not feel right to you and you have questions.
(01:12):
So we wanted to take a deeper look at that because I've had that happen many times, Gail and I know I'm sure you have as well.
The first thing I thought we should start with is are we even hearing each other?
Making sure that before we jump to the conclusion that we're disagreeing with our vet, we really want to make sure we understand what they're advocating for, what they're recommending.
(01:35):
So often we're leaving a vet appointment and we're paying the bill at the front desk, and we're feeling confused, we're feeling overwhelmed.
That's when we start having all these questions and yet it may be a while before we can get those questions answered.
What do you think?
What might get in the way?
(01:56):
I guess where I was coming from is that in that moment when your vet is describing their point of view— a diagnosis, because of blood work or another test.
You can just be in shock and confused by it all and not even really remembering the disease or diagnosis to know how to spell it.
(02:17):
And so what gets in the way?
Is it always the shock at the moment we're hearing from our vets?
Gail Pope (02:24):
I think so.
I think it's the words fear and anger come up for me quite a lot because I think when we are fearful and remembering well like Callie there, that these animals are our loved ones.
When we have a doctor telling us that there's some bad news or something like that, then fear comes up first.
(02:47):
Then I think a lot of people tend to get angry.
They're listening and they're trying to concentrate and all the while they're trembling inside.
Then depending on what the doctor is saying sometimes people bluster— we do, we get, "No, that can't be right."
We start to argue with them.
(03:08):
I know when I've talked to people quite often, after particular diagnoses, they've been angry with their vet. And I say, "You need to go back into this situation.
You need to let all that go.
They're doing their best with love because that's the job they do.
They're trying to communicate what's going on so that you can work together to help to rectify, depending— there's so many different types of diagnoses."
(03:33):
But just not succumbing to the fear and just getting angry and not getting the information that you really need and making a decision or refusing to make a decision because you can't face it.
That could be as simple as an antibiotic prescription that just doesn't feel right to you.
And it's, "I don't want my dog to have this medicine. I don't know anything about it."
(03:56):
You can feel the tension rising and once it's risen in you, your vet may have, you know, it's very difficult to be calm and gentle with someone who's clearly getting frustrated and angry.
Karen Wylie (04:08):
Yes and we're there as the pet parent with all the love we have for our pet that we see almost 24 hours a day, especially when they're sleeping with us.
But the veterinarian is coming into the exam room with your test results or a diagnosis or advice and so they're very focused on the facts, the knowledge that they have, the medical information— which is their role.
(04:39):
That's why we're there.
Yet we are coming from a very emotional place.
We also want the facts but we're just at different places in those conversations.
If we can't shift to a little more fact finding and ability to ask questions, and the vet can't shift to help us get past the emotional upset or the shock then that's where we're either like this in the conversation or we're totally missing each other.
(05:17):
Either way it's not going to help your pet nearly as well.
So Yes, the communication aspect for both parties.
The vets have a lot more training in communication training than we do in how to communicate with our vets but it's so essential.
Now, another area I was wondering about where I think can be a source of disagreement is when your vet is advocating for a particular type of treatment and you may disagree.
(05:50):
Is that something you've run into yourself, Gail or with your clients?
How do you approach that when they're advocating for something that just doesn't feel like the right move?
Gail Pope (06:02):
Again, broad spectrum because it can cover all sorts of different things.
I think what I advise clients mostly is be gentle in the conversation.
Say, "That sounds interesting.
I'd like to think about it a little more perhaps.
I also am thinking about whatever it might be, acupuncture or something holistic or a different type, a different direction conventionally but I was wondering about maybe I need to think a little bit more about it.
(06:32):
What do you think?"
And just be gentle and kind.
Add something to the conversation and then see how the veterinarian feels about that.
You can then get a sense as to how open and conversational they are willing or able or want to be with you.
And if it comes to it to say, "I really would like to think about it a bit more.
(06:55):
I think I need to just go home today and just dwell on it.
I think maybe that's the way we should go.
And sleep on it and just see."
Karen Wylie (07:03):
So staying open to the possibility.
It can be part of it.
I certainly, as you're saying that, I'm thinking back to various situations.
I know I ask "Why" a lot when a vet is giving me information and what they see as the best next step the best move forward.
(07:26):
A lot of them will tell you why they believe that's the best or else they wouldn't be making the recommendations they are.
But I often ask, "Was there anything else you considered?"
I like to have a bigger picture of why they're leaning a particular way.
Certainly with some diseases and some diagnoses there's not that many options.
(07:49):
It is going to be narrowed down but understanding why they choose one road for you to walk down with your pet and not another is something I like to hear.
Because I want to make sure they're really expressing their understanding of me as a pet parent and what I'm able to do and willing to do.
(08:12):
That it also is very much focused on my individual pet and not just in general what's a good diagnosis or a good move.
Gail Pope (08:20):
Absolutely!
You just made me think of another thing which I know I never ever used to think about it.
When you go to the vet, any vet hospital for an exam or whatever the appointment's for, you need to take pen and paper with you because it can be so overwhelming.
So even if you just write down bullet points as the conversation goes on so that you brain can remember things.
(08:45):
I know it's the most awful thing to go home after a vet appointment or a doctor's appointment too and the family says, "What did he say?
And what about..." "Yes, I remember that but I can't remember exactly what he said or suggested"
and that's tough.
So definitely I think making notes is a really important thing.
Karen Wylie (09:06):
I absolutely agree with you.
Of course we often talk about this but we didn't say it starting out, is preparing for your vet visit with the questions that you have thought of since the last time.
Any notes you've been taking as a caregiver in your journal or daily notes where you've been keeping track of your pet and what seems to be stable or if there's any changes.
(09:29):
So preparing with those notes and then as you're saying bringing that pen and paper to the clinic that so that you're ready to learn from them and to take the information that your vet is sharing.
Sometimes it's just so that when you get home and you start having questions that you didn't have before you left the clinic.
Sometimes I think about it as I'm driving home, I have a 25 or 30 minute drive from my vet clinic and that's very often when I come up with my questions.
(09:59):
So yes, having that pen and paper available and being able to even know how to spell the disease or diagnosis.
Some of these diseases that are able to be identified now and treated can be 7-8 syllables.
If you haven't been down that particular road, it's like, can you spell that?
Gail Pope (10:21):
Exactly!
You've just made me think of something else.
It's really making a comparison because I work as mostly with classical veterinary homeopaths.
So my work with my vets is done on the telephone by appointment.
So again, there are very oftentimes whether conventional care or holistic care that you can be working with a telephone appointment.
(10:46):
It's crucial that you actually keep a file or a book of notes because the first question is "How is your animal, what's going on?
How has he been?
When did that happen?
When did this start?"
You have all of those kinds of questions.
If you don't have notes, you are really not going to do a good job.
If you can't do a good job then your vet can't do a good job.
Karen Wylie (11:09):
And your pet will suffer because
Gail Pope (11:12):
You're suffering, you're definitely suffering.
Karen Wylie (11:15):
Yes, because you're the advocate for your pet.
So, you have to and part of this is feeling confident when you are in the appointment with your vet. This is something you and I have talked about before, is that we were both raised at a time when your physician, the health and your doctor knew everything and you were to be deferential.
(11:38):
Your personal healthcare as a person was in their hands.
Somehow, you weren't expected to have any responsibility at all and that can be carried over to your veterinarian as well, where you are deferring to the medical knowledge they have.
That's why we're going to them because of the letters after their name and the knowledge they have.
(12:01):
But that's no reason for you to not ask questions and for you to not present information.
Sometimes it means taking photographs of your pet along the way, along the caregiving journey or taking video to show if there's a change in their movement that might not be visible when the pet is brought to the clinic and their adrenaline's pumping just like yours and they don't display the same concerns that you have at home.
Gail Pope (12:28):
Another important thing here that I'm sure most people realize anyway at this point is that doctors and veterinarians alike these days very often only have a certain amount of time allocated for an appointment.
So whereas when I used to go to either the doctor or the vet years ago, it was fun and friendly and family.
(12:49):
We'd chat and they'd ask how the children were.
It was that kind of a relationship that we developed but these days, practitioners don't have the time in big clinics.
Smaller clinics, definitely sometimes they do make a little more time.
But if you're not organized with your thinking and what's been going on, the pressure can be enormous once you're face to face with being asked questions and you can't quite remember the answers.
(13:14):
Karen, your volume's gone.
I can't hear you.
That was due to Ms. Callie reaching for the microphone.
She turned me off.
Actually at this point, I would like to say that if I look to be sitting strangely, it's because three quarters of my chair is being taken up by Purrci here.
If you see my arm moving I'm stroking him and hoping that he might slide back a bit.
Karen Wylie (13:37):
Okay.
Let's see
Gail Pope (13:38):
Where were we?
Karen Wylie (13:39):
Yes, where were we?
What was I going to say?
I think that depending on each individual clinic these days, there's various intake procedures.
So you can be taken into an exam room and your vet tech or veterinary nurse will be doing the intake— getting, asking you all the questions about why you're there.
(14:04):
If it's you're there just for an annual exam, they're still going to go through a particular slate of questions to cover all the bases.
I find that's the procedure at my clinic.
I basically tell all of this information to the tech who then takes the pet to a back exam room where my vet then interacts with the animal, and then my vet comes in to talk to me about any findings that she has.
(14:32):
So I then find myself saying, "Were you told about this? Were you told about that?"
There's a few things that I consider to be the most important things I want to make sure she was keeping in mind and had been told.
So my point here is that sometimes it's not just the communication between you and your veterinarian but you could have communication going through a third person or being loaded into the computer perhaps in different words than you expressed it.
(15:06):
So I think we have some new challenges these days in making sure that we're on the same wavelength with our vet.
Gail Pope (15:13):
That's really important.
Wow!
Yes I keep hearing people telling me the different procedures that they go through.
My vet, that I actually go to and see, they have the same intake procedure where the vet tech generally goes through everything.
She updates the computer but then the vet himself comes into the room and sits down on the floor with us and we talk.
(15:39):
It's much more of a friendly affair.
It's a really nice approach because I don't feel, I don't feel that tension that's, "Oh my God, what's he going to say next?"
It's comforting and I guess it's a really lovely, more modern, more holistically oriented approach and it really is beneficial.
Really lovely.
(16:00):
I think I did go to one clinic before we moved home and there they had the same protocol as yours.
I only went once and I didn't go back there because I didn't feel comfortable with them taking my animal to be examined by the vet with me not being there.
That had never happened before so I didn't feel comfortable about it.
Karen Wylie (16:19):
This has been the procedure at my clinic for the six and a half years I've been going there, but I think so highly of my vet that it's okay.
Because I have been able to establish an understanding with her of how I like to proceed with my pets depending on, of course, what the issue is.
(16:41):
But even when you're on a path that you know will be terminal at some point, whether it's an advanced kidney disease or cardiomyopathy, or there's just so many diseases and diagnoses that our pets can ultimately die from.
Just makes me think of I guess maybe the last two to three months of Mr. Hope's life.
(17:06):
Mr. Hope is a cat that I talk about frequently.
He's the last senior I had that I took through hospice for two and a half years and cared for at home.
But in the last two to three months, my vet thought she heard a little bit of fluid in his lungs and she said, "I'm not hearing much, but I'd feel better if we do a couple x-rays so we can know one way or the other."
(17:30):
Then she says, "Because if it's there, then we can start treating it."
So we did that and she came into to the room afterwards and she says, "I did find a little bit but he's not ready to leave the planet yet."
And you know, we laughed.
Then I said, "Are we doing everything that you feel we could do for him at this point?"
And she said, "It depends on are you— would you want to have him hospitalized for something? Because there are different things we could do then but I was assuming that's just not how you like to approach these illnesses."
(18:02):
And I said, "You're absolutely right. I want him home with us."
So it was just having that understanding where she was ruling in and ruling out things to express to me based on her understanding of how I would like to handle things at home.
I like to do the Sub-Q fluids, I like to do the injections.
I just think that becomes a very important piece.
(18:23):
It's difficult especially when we could have a disagreement with a vet where they're feeling something is hopeless and yet we are not done yet, and that's different from euthanasia.
They sometimes can be straight up front with you and say, "I really think at this point the best option is euthanasia."
(18:44):
But there's also this time before that happens where they're just saying to you, "I honestly don't know what else to do."
It could move to talking about euthanasia but you are thinking there's gotta be something else.
Is that when asking for a specialist would probably be a good step for people to consider, Gail?
Gail Pope (19:07):
Oh, I think that consideration can happen anywhere along the journey.
You can have a serious "something" developing in a cat who's two or three years old.
That's a difficult surgery or something that's difficult to approach and your vet may recommend a specialist who then does a lifesaving surgery and the animal lives another 20 years.
(19:31):
I've had that happen.
That's why that's kind of springing to mind.
I think at any point where
you have a feeling— in all honesty, in my experience, when there's a possibility of doing more but the veterinarian doesn't have more to offer, they understand how the process works.
They understand the training of people who are specializing in certain categories.
(19:54):
Generally, in my experience, the veterinarian will say, "I'm really not quite sure where to go next but I really think a specialist appointment might be a good choice."
And very often it really is.
I think it's wonderful.
It's a beautiful demonstration of humility to say, "I'm not sure, let's seek a specialist opinion."
(20:15):
It's lovely.
For the most part, it's not necessarily relevant and it can cost a lot of money.
Certainly in a lifesaving situation, whether it's chronic or an urgent situation, it's certainly something to have in your mind ready just in case.
Would it be advisable to seek a second opinion and go to a specialist?
(20:39):
There are obviously other occasions where you just don't feel comfortable with the diagnosis and you decide you want to actually see a different vet. You certainly hear about people who are maybe just seeking a different approach
or their personality with their veterinarian, they just don't gel and that happens in life sometimes.
(21:01):
It's a good choice to see somebody else and see what works better.
Karen Wylie (21:06):
Yes.
With veterinary specialists, we're seeing a broader range of specialization and training taking place for veterinarians now.
Just as we've seen the specializations for human health expanding.
Sometimes the opportunities, the new learnings are happening so fast.
(21:27):
A general practitioner whether human for us or veterinarian for our pets, it's hard to keep up with all the new possibilities of treatment out there.
Like you're saying if a veterinarian is humble enough, and I think most of them realize these days that even when they're out of school for three to five years, there can be leaps forward in treating various diseases that they wouldn't be as up on.
(21:52):
They might read about it in a journal but then be prompted to recommend you to see a specialist.
Now, I guess the last area I'd like us to address, and this is one that if I can— my little executive producer (Callie) over here is doing this to my monitor, so I'm holding it in place.
(22:12):
The last area I'd like us to take a look at is when euthanasia is recommended and we don't feel it's actually time.
And I know that is very often at the heart of a pet parent's motivation to contact you as a client and ask you for your help and support to basically help them advocate for themselves and for their pet.
(22:40):
What would you say in those situations?
What do you say to clients that say that to you, "Hey, they're recommending euthanasia but I don't feel that it's time for that yet."
Gail Pope (22:49):
That happens in two ways
So they've actually telephoned me while they're at the vet hospital, which is a difficult, very difficult situation but I've always counselled them then to be sure that it would be safe to take your animal home, "Can they breathe okay? Is there anything acute that's going on that does need urgent attention?"
(23:27):
We can look at that differently but if there's not.
First thing I would say is, "Please let go of your anger, your fear, your frustration, and deal kindly with your vet. Explain to them that you need a little more time.
They may feel that it's time to euthanize but you're not ready yet.
(23:48):
All being well, you would like to just take him home so you've got at least 24 hours to think about this.
Be with your family and make that decision so that it's in your own time and you will be comfortable with it."
I think that is the very best approach that we can do and I think most veterinarians understand that.
(24:09):
Anyway, sometimes people will bring an animal home with oxygen with whatever it needs to support them and then take them back the next day.
Or by some miracle, they found a different way forward and the animal has suddenly done much better.
We just don't know what's going to happen, like Swan song.
Then you are so glad you didn't miss it because it's just so heartwarming to see an animal "flower" again for a short time before they finally leave our planet.
(24:38):
So yes, I think it really is taking the time, whichever, whether it happens as an emergency at the hospital or just as something for you to consider it.
If you can't talk to your veterinarian about it because they're so busy, they make the recommendation and you go home.
So yes, reaching out to somebody who has been trained in the world of hospice and they are so well equipped to understand the grief that is welling up inside of you, the fear, the panic that, "Oh my goodness, what am I going to do?"
(25:12):
They can help you.
Those kinds of conversations are so important to be able to have with someone who truly understands what's going on.
And can ask the right kinds of questions so that you explore your options and come to the conclusion, "Yes, I agree. I'm taking him back" or "No, we are going to take this gradually and slowly. He's okay."
(25:38):
If I ask him at the moment, "How are you feeling?" He'd say, "I'm fine.
Where's dinner?" It doesn't sound like euthanasia is quite ready.
We are not ready.
Karen Wylie (25:48):
Exactly.
You're saying the pet perspective is important to take a look at, huh?
Gail Pope (25:53):
Exactly.
You have to bring the animal into the conversation and it's not about them.
I think that's probably the most important thing— there's more of us here than just you and me deciding whether we're going to euthanize our baby here.
Let's bring him into the conversation and look at how he is.
He may be close to the end of his life.
(26:15):
He may not be eating anything or very much.
There may be all sorts of things going on but looking beyond those things— "How is he? How does he want to die? And right now?" Sometimes it may be Yes, and sometimes it may be No.
(26:35):
Sometimes there may be a lot deeper reasons, you may not be actually able to cope.
You could be elderly with a very large dog and you simply don't have anyone to help you.
There are occasions where it absolutely is and the vet may be seeing that you are at the end of your rope and you actually can't cope.
That's why they're making the recommendation.
(26:56):
It's a big subject.
Karen Wylie (26:59):
It is a big subject because there could be so many reasons for their recommendation.
I believe one of the things we do want to talk about in depth that in a future conversation is about Hospice Care which is something both of us believe in doing for our pets for as long as possible.
But neither one of us when we were providing hospice care at the beginning knew that that's the word to describe what we were doing.
(27:24):
We did it for years.
Hospice is defined differently for some, I just want to mention this for our listeners because the last couple of years we've had several of our students at Animal Hospice Group talk to us about trying to find a veterinary clinic that offered hospice care for a pet that was declining.
(27:44):
They would be looking at the websites, the descriptions, and the clinics would say they did hospice care but when they pushed for
it— it was more of a
quality of life evaluation on the spot where euthanasia could be offered immediately also on the spot.
(28:05):
So hospice care is not that.
Hospice Care is allowing your pet to enjoy its life for however long they can be with you.
Providing the supportive care to allow for that for you and your pet.
So as we're thinking of how to close down this particular conversation today, Gail, what are some of the things that you're thinking are the key takeaways for our listeners here to be keeping in mind?
(28:35):
I guess the first thing I wanted to mention is that, if a diagnosis or a recommendation doesn't feel right to you, it's just a signal to slow down and communicate with your vet and start with listening.
Listening to your vet, making sure you understand them but also listening to yourself, your intuition and your gut about what's right for your pet.
(28:57):
What else would you add?
Gail Pope (28:59):
Actually, I don't think I would because I think it really is all about gathering information, weighing it up, and trusting your gut.
Working with your animal as well as your vet. Deciding what you know— sometimes something as simple as, "Let's do an X-ray. Let's do this or that treatment."
(29:21):
Maybe as simple as, "Oh yes, now that would give us a proper diagnosis and that would be a wonderful thing.
Oh!
But here I have a cat or a dog who is so sensitive, so scared, so this, so that, so old, so traumatized.
I really don't know."
Once you then bring the animal into it, sometimes that whole dynamic changes because it is about them and what they can handle and what they would want.
(29:47):
So there, I think there are just so many different types of diagnoses that it really is to do your best.
I think I might have said this sometimes before— do your best, do it with love and remember those baby steps.
Karen Wylie (30:01):
And to really have confidence in advocating for your pet because you're the one who knows your pet the best and can take their perspective into account of what your each individual pet would want, would be comfortable with, could cope with and all of that.
I think that's a great point for us to end on here.
(30:23):
If this episode and our conversation resonated with you today please consider looking at our video-casts on YouTube or listen to our audio podcasts.
Whatever you would like to best listen through.
Please share your thoughts with us on social media or email us directly.
Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast, to our channel so you don't miss an episode.
(30:45):
We're pretty regular about getting these new episodes out on Thursday afternoons and Friday mornings so you know what to look for.
If you know of a friend another pet parent who is facing some hard decisions right now, please pass this episode along.
Might be exactly what they need to hear today.
So thank you for spending time with us and we'll send you love and peace of mind to you and your beloved pet.
(31:12):
Until next time, thanks for being with us.
Gail Pope (31:15):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(31:52):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here with my wonderful friend, Gail Pope.
Today's topic is one that touches all of us at some point or another.
That is when our veterinarian's advice may not feel right to you and you have questions.
(01:12):
So we wanted to take a deeper look at that because I've had that happen many times, Gail and I know I'm sure you have as well.
The first thing I thought we should start with is are we even hearing each other?
Making sure that before we jump to the conclusion that we're disagreeing with our vet, we really want to make sure we understand what they're advocating for, what they're recommending.
(01:35):
So often we're leaving a vet appointment and we're paying the bill at the front desk, and we're feeling confused, we're feeling overwhelmed.
That's when we start having all these questions and yet it may be a while before we can get those questions answered.
What do you think?
What might get in the way?
(01:56):
I guess where I was coming from is that in that moment when your vet is describing their point of view— a diagnosis, because of blood work or another test.
You can just be in shock and confused by it all and not even really remembering the disease or diagnosis to know how to spell it.
(02:17):
And so what gets in the way?
Is it always the shock at the moment we're hearing from our vets?
Gail Pope (02:24):
I think so.
I think it's the words fear and anger come up for me quite a lot because I think when we are fearful and remembering well like Callie there, that these animals are our loved ones.
When we have a doctor telling us that there's some bad news or something like that, then fear comes up first.
(02:47):
Then I think a lot of people tend to get angry.
They're listening and they're trying to concentrate and all the while they're trembling inside.
Then depending on what the doctor is saying sometimes people bluster— we do, we get, "No, that can't be right."
We start to argue with them.
(03:08):
I know when I've talked to people quite often, after particular diagnoses, they've been angry with their vet. And I say, "You need to go back into this situation.
You need to let all that go.
They're doing their best with love because that's the job they do.
They're trying to communicate what's going on so that you can work together to help to rectify, depending— there's so many different types of diagnoses."
(03:33):
But just not succumbing to the fear and just getting angry and not getting the information that you really need and making a decision or refusing to make a decision because you can't face it.
That could be as simple as an antibiotic prescription that just doesn't feel right to you.
And it's, "I don't want my dog to have this medicine. I don't know anything about it."
(03:56):
You can feel the tension rising and once it's risen in you, your vet may have, you know, it's very difficult to be calm and gentle with someone who's clearly getting frustrated and angry.
Karen Wylie (04:08):
Yes and we're there as the pet parent with all the love we have for our pet that we see almost 24 hours a day, especially when they're sleeping with us.
But the veterinarian is coming into the exam room with your test results or a diagnosis or advice and so they're very focused on the facts, the knowledge that they have, the medical information— which is their role.
(04:39):
That's why we're there.
Yet we are coming from a very emotional place.
We also want the facts but we're just at different places in those conversations.
If we can't shift to a little more fact finding and ability to ask questions, and the vet can't shift to help us get past the emotional upset or the shock then that's where we're either like this in the conversation or we're totally missing each other.
(05:17):
Either way it's not going to help your pet nearly as well.
So Yes, the communication aspect for both parties.
The vets have a lot more training in communication training than we do in how to communicate with our vets but it's so essential.
Now, another area I was wondering about where I think can be a source of disagreement is when your vet is advocating for a particular type of treatment and you may disagree.
(05:50):
Is that something you've run into yourself, Gail or with your clients?
How do you approach that when they're advocating for something that just doesn't feel like the right move?
Gail Pope (06:02):
Again, broad spectrum because it can cover all sorts of different things.
I think what I advise clients mostly is be gentle in the conversation.
Say, "That sounds interesting.
I'd like to think about it a little more perhaps.
I also am thinking about whatever it might be, acupuncture or something holistic or a different type, a different direction conventionally but I was wondering about maybe I need to think a little bit more about it.
(06:32):
What do you think?"
And just be gentle and kind.
Add something to the conversation and then see how the veterinarian feels about that.
You can then get a sense as to how open and conversational they are willing or able or want to be with you.
And if it comes to it to say, "I really would like to think about it a bit more.
(06:55):
I think I need to just go home today and just dwell on it.
I think maybe that's the way we should go.
And sleep on it and just see."
Karen Wylie (07:03):
So staying open to the possibility.
It can be part of it.
I certainly, as you're saying that, I'm thinking back to various situations.
I know I ask "Why" a lot when a vet is giving me information and what they see as the best next step the best move forward.
(07:26):
A lot of them will tell you why they believe that's the best or else they wouldn't be making the recommendations they are.
But I often ask, "Was there anything else you considered?"
I like to have a bigger picture of why they're leaning a particular way.
Certainly with some diseases and some diagnoses there's not that many options.
(07:49):
It is going to be narrowed down but understanding why they choose one road for you to walk down with your pet and not another is something I like to hear.
Because I want to make sure they're really expressing their understanding of me as a pet parent and what I'm able to do and willing to do.
(08:12):
That it also is very much focused on my individual pet and not just in general what's a good diagnosis or a good move.
Gail Pope (08:20):
Absolutely!
You just made me think of another thing which I know I never ever used to think about it.
When you go to the vet, any vet hospital for an exam or whatever the appointment's for, you need to take pen and paper with you because it can be so overwhelming.
So even if you just write down bullet points as the conversation goes on so that you brain can remember things.
(08:45):
I know it's the most awful thing to go home after a vet appointment or a doctor's appointment too and the family says, "What did he say?
And what about..." "Yes, I remember that but I can't remember exactly what he said or suggested"
and that's tough.
So definitely I think making notes is a really important thing.
Karen Wylie (09:06):
I absolutely agree with you.
Of course we often talk about this but we didn't say it starting out, is preparing for your vet visit with the questions that you have thought of since the last time.
Any notes you've been taking as a caregiver in your journal or daily notes where you've been keeping track of your pet and what seems to be stable or if there's any changes.
(09:29):
So preparing with those notes and then as you're saying bringing that pen and paper to the clinic that so that you're ready to learn from them and to take the information that your vet is sharing.
Sometimes it's just so that when you get home and you start having questions that you didn't have before you left the clinic.
Sometimes I think about it as I'm driving home, I have a 25 or 30 minute drive from my vet clinic and that's very often when I come up with my questions.
(09:59):
So yes, having that pen and paper available and being able to even know how to spell the disease or diagnosis.
Some of these diseases that are able to be identified now and treated can be 7-8 syllables.
If you haven't been down that particular road, it's like, can you spell that?
Gail Pope (10:21):
Exactly!
You've just made me think of something else.
It's really making a comparison because I work as mostly with classical veterinary homeopaths.
So my work with my vets is done on the telephone by appointment.
So again, there are very oftentimes whether conventional care or holistic care that you can be working with a telephone appointment.
(10:46):
It's crucial that you actually keep a file or a book of notes because the first question is "How is your animal, what's going on?
How has he been?
When did that happen?
When did this start?"
You have all of those kinds of questions.
If you don't have notes, you are really not going to do a good job.
If you can't do a good job then your vet can't do a good job.
Karen Wylie (11:09):
And your pet will suffer because
Gail Pope (11:12):
You're suffering, you're definitely suffering.
Karen Wylie (11:15):
Yes, because you're the advocate for your pet.
So, you have to and part of this is feeling confident when you are in the appointment with your vet. This is something you and I have talked about before, is that we were both raised at a time when your physician, the health and your doctor knew everything and you were to be deferential.
(11:38):
Your personal healthcare as a person was in their hands.
Somehow, you weren't expected to have any responsibility at all and that can be carried over to your veterinarian as well, where you are deferring to the medical knowledge they have.
That's why we're going to them because of the letters after their name and the knowledge they have.
(12:01):
But that's no reason for you to not ask questions and for you to not present information.
Sometimes it means taking photographs of your pet along the way, along the caregiving journey or taking video to show if there's a change in their movement that might not be visible when the pet is brought to the clinic and their adrenaline's pumping just like yours and they don't display the same concerns that you have at home.
Gail Pope (12:28):
Another important thing here that I'm sure most people realize anyway at this point is that doctors and veterinarians alike these days very often only have a certain amount of time allocated for an appointment.
So whereas when I used to go to either the doctor or the vet years ago, it was fun and friendly and family.
(12:49):
We'd chat and they'd ask how the children were.
It was that kind of a relationship that we developed but these days, practitioners don't have the time in big clinics.
Smaller clinics, definitely sometimes they do make a little more time.
But if you're not organized with your thinking and what's been going on, the pressure can be enormous once you're face to face with being asked questions and you can't quite remember the answers.
(13:14):
Karen, your volume's gone.
I can't hear you.
That was due to Ms. Callie reaching for the microphone.
She turned me off.
Actually at this point, I would like to say that if I look to be sitting strangely, it's because three quarters of my chair is being taken up by Purrci here.
If you see my arm moving I'm stroking him and hoping that he might slide back a bit.
Karen Wylie (13:37):
Okay.
Let's see
Gail Pope (13:38):
Where were we?
Karen Wylie (13:39):
Yes, where were we?
What was I going to say?
I think that depending on each individual clinic these days, there's various intake procedures.
So you can be taken into an exam room and your vet tech or veterinary nurse will be doing the intake— getting, asking you all the questions about why you're there.
(14:04):
If it's you're there just for an annual exam, they're still going to go through a particular slate of questions to cover all the bases.
I find that's the procedure at my clinic.
I basically tell all of this information to the tech who then takes the pet to a back exam room where my vet then interacts with the animal, and then my vet comes in to talk to me about any findings that she has.
(14:32):
So I then find myself saying, "Were you told about this? Were you told about that?"
There's a few things that I consider to be the most important things I want to make sure she was keeping in mind and had been told.
So my point here is that sometimes it's not just the communication between you and your veterinarian but you could have communication going through a third person or being loaded into the computer perhaps in different words than you expressed it.
(15:06):
So I think we have some new challenges these days in making sure that we're on the same wavelength with our vet.
Gail Pope (15:13):
That's really important.
Wow!
Yes I keep hearing people telling me the different procedures that they go through.
My vet, that I actually go to and see, they have the same intake procedure where the vet tech generally goes through everything.
She updates the computer but then the vet himself comes into the room and sits down on the floor with us and we talk.
(15:39):
It's much more of a friendly affair.
It's a really nice approach because I don't feel, I don't feel that tension that's, "Oh my God, what's he going to say next?"
It's comforting and I guess it's a really lovely, more modern, more holistically oriented approach and it really is beneficial.
Really lovely.
(16:00):
I think I did go to one clinic before we moved home and there they had the same protocol as yours.
I only went once and I didn't go back there because I didn't feel comfortable with them taking my animal to be examined by the vet with me not being there.
That had never happened before so I didn't feel comfortable about it.
Karen Wylie (16:19):
This has been the procedure at my clinic for the six and a half years I've been going there, but I think so highly of my vet that it's okay.
Because I have been able to establish an understanding with her of how I like to proceed with my pets depending on, of course, what the issue is.
(16:41):
But even when you're on a path that you know will be terminal at some point, whether it's an advanced kidney disease or cardiomyopathy, or there's just so many diseases and diagnoses that our pets can ultimately die from.
Just makes me think of I guess maybe the last two to three months of Mr. Hope's life.
(17:06):
Mr. Hope is a cat that I talk about frequently.
He's the last senior I had that I took through hospice for two and a half years and cared for at home.
But in the last two to three months, my vet thought she heard a little bit of fluid in his lungs and she said, "I'm not hearing much, but I'd feel better if we do a couple x-rays so we can know one way or the other."
(17:30):
Then she says, "Because if it's there, then we can start treating it."
So we did that and she came into to the room afterwards and she says, "I did find a little bit but he's not ready to leave the planet yet."
And you know, we laughed.
Then I said, "Are we doing everything that you feel we could do for him at this point?"
And she said, "It depends on are you— would you want to have him hospitalized for something? Because there are different things we could do then but I was assuming that's just not how you like to approach these illnesses."
(18:02):
And I said, "You're absolutely right. I want him home with us."
So it was just having that understanding where she was ruling in and ruling out things to express to me based on her understanding of how I would like to handle things at home.
I like to do the Sub-Q fluids, I like to do the injections.
I just think that becomes a very important piece.
(18:23):
It's difficult especially when we could have a disagreement with a vet where they're feeling something is hopeless and yet we are not done yet, and that's different from euthanasia.
They sometimes can be straight up front with you and say, "I really think at this point the best option is euthanasia."
(18:44):
But there's also this time before that happens where they're just saying to you, "I honestly don't know what else to do."
It could move to talking about euthanasia but you are thinking there's gotta be something else.
Is that when asking for a specialist would probably be a good step for people to consider, Gail?
Gail Pope (19:07):
Oh, I think that consideration can happen anywhere along the journey.
You can have a serious "something" developing in a cat who's two or three years old.
That's a difficult surgery or something that's difficult to approach and your vet may recommend a specialist who then does a lifesaving surgery and the animal lives another 20 years.
(19:31):
I've had that happen.
That's why that's kind of springing to mind.
I think at any point where
you have a feeling— in all honesty, in my experience, when there's a possibility of doing more but the veterinarian doesn't have more to offer, they understand how the process works.
They understand the training of people who are specializing in certain categories.
(19:54):
Generally, in my experience, the veterinarian will say, "I'm really not quite sure where to go next but I really think a specialist appointment might be a good choice."
And very often it really is.
I think it's wonderful.
It's a beautiful demonstration of humility to say, "I'm not sure, let's seek a specialist opinion."
(20:15):
It's lovely.
For the most part, it's not necessarily relevant and it can cost a lot of money.
Certainly in a lifesaving situation, whether it's chronic or an urgent situation, it's certainly something to have in your mind ready just in case.
Would it be advisable to seek a second opinion and go to a specialist?
(20:39):
There are obviously other occasions where you just don't feel comfortable with the diagnosis and you decide you want to actually see a different vet. You certainly hear about people who are maybe just seeking a different approach
or their personality with their veterinarian, they just don't gel and that happens in life sometimes.
(21:01):
It's a good choice to see somebody else and see what works better.
Karen Wylie (21:06):
Yes.
With veterinary specialists, we're seeing a broader range of specialization and training taking place for veterinarians now.
Just as we've seen the specializations for human health expanding.
Sometimes the opportunities, the new learnings are happening so fast.
(21:27):
A general practitioner whether human for us or veterinarian for our pets, it's hard to keep up with all the new possibilities of treatment out there.
Like you're saying if a veterinarian is humble enough, and I think most of them realize these days that even when they're out of school for three to five years, there can be leaps forward in treating various diseases that they wouldn't be as up on.
(21:52):
They might read about it in a journal but then be prompted to recommend you to see a specialist.
Now, I guess the last area I'd like us to address, and this is one that if I can— my little executive producer (Callie) over here is doing this to my monitor, so I'm holding it in place.
(22:12):
The last area I'd like us to take a look at is when euthanasia is recommended and we don't feel it's actually time.
And I know that is very often at the heart of a pet parent's motivation to contact you as a client and ask you for your help and support to basically help them advocate for themselves and for their pet.
(22:40):
What would you say in those situations?
What do you say to clients that say that to you, "Hey, they're recommending euthanasia but I don't feel that it's time for that yet."
Gail Pope (22:49):
That happens in two ways
So they've actually telephoned me while they're at the vet hospital, which is a difficult, very difficult situation but I've always counselled them then to be sure that it would be safe to take your animal home, "Can they breathe okay? Is there anything acute that's going on that does need urgent attention?"
(23:27):
We can look at that differently but if there's not.
First thing I would say is, "Please let go of your anger, your fear, your frustration, and deal kindly with your vet. Explain to them that you need a little more time.
They may feel that it's time to euthanize but you're not ready yet.
(23:48):
All being well, you would like to just take him home so you've got at least 24 hours to think about this.
Be with your family and make that decision so that it's in your own time and you will be comfortable with it."
I think that is the very best approach that we can do and I think most veterinarians understand that.
(24:09):
Anyway, sometimes people will bring an animal home with oxygen with whatever it needs to support them and then take them back the next day.
Or by some miracle, they found a different way forward and the animal has suddenly done much better.
We just don't know what's going to happen, like Swan song.
Then you are so glad you didn't miss it because it's just so heartwarming to see an animal "flower" again for a short time before they finally leave our planet.
(24:38):
So yes, I think it really is taking the time, whichever, whether it happens as an emergency at the hospital or just as something for you to consider it.
If you can't talk to your veterinarian about it because they're so busy, they make the recommendation and you go home.
So yes, reaching out to somebody who has been trained in the world of hospice and they are so well equipped to understand the grief that is welling up inside of you, the fear, the panic that, "Oh my goodness, what am I going to do?"
(25:12):
They can help you.
Those kinds of conversations are so important to be able to have with someone who truly understands what's going on.
And can ask the right kinds of questions so that you explore your options and come to the conclusion, "Yes, I agree. I'm taking him back" or "No, we are going to take this gradually and slowly. He's okay."
(25:38):
If I ask him at the moment, "How are you feeling?" He'd say, "I'm fine.
Where's dinner?" It doesn't sound like euthanasia is quite ready.
We are not ready.
Karen Wylie (25:48):
Exactly.
You're saying the pet perspective is important to take a look at, huh?
Gail Pope (25:53):
Exactly.
You have to bring the animal into the conversation and it's not about them.
I think that's probably the most important thing— there's more of us here than just you and me deciding whether we're going to euthanize our baby here.
Let's bring him into the conversation and look at how he is.
He may be close to the end of his life.
(26:15):
He may not be eating anything or very much.
There may be all sorts of things going on but looking beyond those things— "How is he? How does he want to die? And right now?" Sometimes it may be Yes, and sometimes it may be No.
(26:35):
Sometimes there may be a lot deeper reasons, you may not be actually able to cope.
You could be elderly with a very large dog and you simply don't have anyone to help you.
There are occasions where it absolutely is and the vet may be seeing that you are at the end of your rope and you actually can't cope.
That's why they're making the recommendation.
(26:56):
It's a big subject.
Karen Wylie (26:59):
It is a big subject because there could be so many reasons for their recommendation.
I believe one of the things we do want to talk about in depth that in a future conversation is about Hospice Care which is something both of us believe in doing for our pets for as long as possible.
But neither one of us when we were providing hospice care at the beginning knew that that's the word to describe what we were doing.
(27:24):
We did it for years.
Hospice is defined differently for some, I just want to mention this for our listeners because the last couple of years we've had several of our students at Animal Hospice Group talk to us about trying to find a veterinary clinic that offered hospice care for a pet that was declining.
(27:44):
They would be looking at the websites, the descriptions, and the clinics would say they did hospice care but when they pushed for
it— it was more of a
quality of life evaluation on the spot where euthanasia could be offered immediately also on the spot.
(28:05):
So hospice care is not that.
Hospice Care is allowing your pet to enjoy its life for however long they can be with you.
Providing the supportive care to allow for that for you and your pet.
So as we're thinking of how to close down this particular conversation today, Gail, what are some of the things that you're thinking are the key takeaways for our listeners here to be keeping in mind?
(28:35):
I guess the first thing I wanted to mention is that, if a diagnosis or a recommendation doesn't feel right to you, it's just a signal to slow down and communicate with your vet and start with listening.
Listening to your vet, making sure you understand them but also listening to yourself, your intuition and your gut about what's right for your pet.
(28:57):
What else would you add?
Gail Pope (28:59):
Actually, I don't think I would because I think it really is all about gathering information, weighing it up, and trusting your gut.
Working with your animal as well as your vet. Deciding what you know— sometimes something as simple as, "Let's do an X-ray. Let's do this or that treatment."
(29:21):
Maybe as simple as, "Oh yes, now that would give us a proper diagnosis and that would be a wonderful thing.
Oh!
But here I have a cat or a dog who is so sensitive, so scared, so this, so that, so old, so traumatized.
I really don't know."
Once you then bring the animal into it, sometimes that whole dynamic changes because it is about them and what they can handle and what they would want.
(29:47):
So there, I think there are just so many different types of diagnoses that it really is to do your best.
I think I might have said this sometimes before— do your best, do it with love and remember those baby steps.
Karen Wylie (30:01):
And to really have confidence in advocating for your pet because you're the one who knows your pet the best and can take their perspective into account of what your each individual pet would want, would be comfortable with, could cope with and all of that.
I think that's a great point for us to end on here.
(30:23):
If this episode and our conversation resonated with you today please consider looking at our video-casts on YouTube or listen to our audio podcasts.
Whatever you would like to best listen through.
Please share your thoughts with us on social media or email us directly.
Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast, to our channel so you don't miss an episode.
(30:45):
We're pretty regular about getting these new episodes out on Thursday afternoons and Friday mornings so you know what to look for.
If you know of a friend another pet parent who is facing some hard decisions right now, please pass this episode along.
Might be exactly what they need to hear today.
So thank you for spending time with us and we'll send you love and peace of mind to you and your beloved pet.
(31:12):
Until next time, thanks for being with us.
Gail Pope (31:15):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(31:52):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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