August 6, 2025 • 34 mins
What if there's another doctor guiding your pet’s final journey—one you can’t see, but can feel? In this episode, Gail and Karen explore how trusting Mother Nature can help pet parents let go, find peace, and recognize the signs of dying without panic.
A heartfelt conversation on intuitive care, hospice, and surrender.
💬 “Sometimes the most difficult thing as a human being is simply being—especially when you're worried or afraid of losing the one you love.”
📌 Related Resource: Blog Post: ""The Other Doctor in the Room: Trusting Nature at the End of Life"
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
Learn More from BrightHaven Caregiver Academy For free resources, upcoming workshops, and a supportive community dedicated to navigating life with your aging or ill pet:
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Disclaimer: This content is for educational purposes and not a substitute for professional advice. We are not veterinarians. While we do not provide medical diagnoses or treatments, we are experienced holistic caregivers. Our support focuses on helping you assess the situation, understand your options, and find clarity and calm in the middle of distress.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen and I'm here with Gail.
Today we're going to talk about something that is deeply important.
Something that might change the way you think about your pet's care especially near the end of life.
Because there comes a point in most caregiving journeys where the medical advice can only take us so far.
(01:16):
And what do you do then?
What steps in?
What kind of wisdom is available at that point for you and your animal?
So today we're going to explore a little bit about what it means to recognize that there's a different presence available for you to tap into, to trust, and to perhaps shift our role from "doing" to more of "being."
(01:40):
I think that's something you often encourage us to do, Gail.
So I'm going to let you start at the very beginning and tell us who the other doctor in the room is because that's a phrase that I have heard you use so often whether we're speaking here on the podcast or with students in animal hospice group.
(02:04):
So why don't you start us out with who the other doctor in the room is that you talk about and how you discovered it?
Gail Pope (02:11):
I'm not entirely sure where to begin because it's such a long journey to such an easy ending because the other doctor in the room is Dr. Mother Nature and the foundation of the world that we live in.
Golly, I guess I just need to go back to the beginning and how it grew into my life.
(02:33):
Early days of BrightHaven in the mid-nineties, I was working for a conventional veterinary practice with the most wonderful veterinarian who changed my life, taught me everything he knew.
And oh my God, he was very eager to learn about holistic medicine— something I'd never even heard of in those days.
However, he had a family and he said, "You know what? If you learn anything in the work you're doing with the sanctuary, share it with me."
(02:57):
And he's just a wonderful person.
Anyway, I was working for him and learning more than I can ever share about the world of conventional care and loving every minute.
Then we had a volunteer at the sanctuary.
Her name was Vicki Allinson.
She was a little strange.
She was more than a little strange.
She had some strange ideas.
But the animals absolutely loved her.
(03:17):
Little by little, she became part of daily life.
She was always there.
Always supportive or a little bit bullying.
She was very tough.
The first thing that she was tough about actually was the diet that I was feeding to the animals.
She started off with, "You're not feeding a natural diet. Mother Nature didn't intend animals to eat kibble."
(03:40):
"No but this is veterinarian recommended and you don't understand."
So that was very odd.
We'd had a huge donation of kibble, all these bags stored in the garage.
I think it was worth about $800 and no way I was going to change my mind.
Then over a short period of time,
one by one animals were winding down or becoming less healthy, and we were treating them as best we could.
(04:06):
Then they would generally die.
They'd be euthanized.
It was the way we did our best.
We did it with love and then the animal died.
And that was okay.
That was the way of things.
And Vicki said, "Why don't you come back one day and think about diet and just think about the overall level of health of the animals?"
And I said "What do you mean?"
She said, "They don't look terribly healthy. I think we could actually talk about treating them a little differently but let's begin with diet."
(04:33):
So finally she persuaded me to try this thing that she called a natural raw meat diet.
I thought all the animals were going to die.
They didn't die and they flourished and it was a new energy hit the sanctuary.
Old cats were now chasing toys across the floor and fur was starting to shine.
(04:53):
It didn't look old and rumpled as it had before.
So I was totally immersed in this.
Then, what came next?
I think it was probably Homeopathy which was even more voodoo to me at that time.
I had a cat called Cindy who was very close to the end of her life.
In fact, I wanted to take her in for euthanasia that day.
(05:14):
I called Vicki, asked her to come and if she could babysit because I didn't have anybody else at the sanctuary.
And she said, "No, but I can offer you some help."
So I said, "What do you mean?"
She said, "I honestly think you could treat her with homeopathy."
I said, Vicki, "She's dying."
She said, "I hear you but why don't you let a friend of mine just talk to you?"
(05:38):
And I was like, "There's no way, I need to go to work. Could you just babysit?"
And she said, "No, I'm sorry. I've got an appointment. I have to leave."
So there I am stranded and a few minutes later the phone rang and a voice said, "May I speak to Gail Pope?"
And I said, "Yes, speaking."
She said, "My name's Dr. Christina Chambreau." Christina loves this story.
(05:58):
And I said "Hello."
And she said, "I understand you've got a kitty that is in need of some help?" And I said right away, "Oh, I'm so sorry.
Vicki doesn't understand.
Cindy's actually getting very close to the end of her life and I'm so sorry to have troubled you."
And there was total silence for a moment.
Then she said, in only Christina's voice, "Excuse me who's the veterinarian here, you or me?"
(06:23):
And I was shocked.
I was embarrassed.
I'm like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." Anyway, she told me to sit down and the long story short, she prescribed a homeopathic remedy that Vicki brought to the house and Cindy lived on.
Wow!
Sometimes it takes a miracle to actually shock you awake because actually the day afterwards when I was back in the office, I was a receptionist, and they received blood work.
(06:48):
I'm remembering it in order now.
The lab called to say that they weren't going to charge us for one of the labs that came in because obviously the cat had died and we were such a good customer, they wouldn't charge us.
So if you'd like to pass that on and it was Cindy's blood work.
So that really underscored the fact that "UH-OH! wow, she didn't die. She's still alive and kicking somewhat."
(07:12):
So that brought me into the world of homeopathy.
Christina introduced me to actually 24 vets who volunteered to work with our animals.
It was a crazy time and it was very scary.
I still leaned into antibiotics and the various drugs that we used for upper respiratory and the things that I was familiar with coming in with new animals.
(07:33):
But little by little, I started to see how they didn't need the antibiotic.
Little by little, it showed me a new way.
Again, Vicki's like you know, "We are leaning to the plant kingdom.
We are leaning into the Mother Nature's world.
We're working holistically, so this is great.
I have someone else for you to meet."
(07:57):
So then came Western Herbs and Greg Tilford, who is the owner of a company called Animal Essentials.
Still going now and doing wonderful work.
And Greg came and toured the sanctuary and he said, "I'd love to donate some products for you to start trying with the animals like tinkle tonic for the renal girls and stuff like that." So that began the journey with Herbology which till that point I hadn't known anything about.
(08:25):
But that took me even deeper into this world of mother nature.
At the same time, Vicki was practicing this very strange thing called Reiki which the cats seem to love, the dogs seem to love, the horses seem to put their heads down and just smile.
I didn't really understand what it was.
She talked about energy and again, the world of Mother Nature.
(08:49):
She said one day a teacher will come into your life and she will teach you.
Because I'd said, "Could you teach me this stuff?"
And she said, "No, I'm not meant to be your teacher. Your teacher will appear when you're ready." Then Kathleen appeared.
Kathleen Prasad became a central part of the BrightHaven Menu for Healing which was gradually developing.
(09:10):
And this took a period of years as I was exploring natural medicine— very tentatively then getting hooked and then realizing the deeper meaning.
That's when I guess I probably started doing some consultations in the early 2000's and people were asking, "What do you do and how do your animals glow with health when they're in their twenties sometimes or even if they're dealing with a chronic illness and they're younger?"
(09:39):
She became such a reality to me that I guess I started learning about symptoms and how we treat symptoms.
So many things.
I'll shut up for a minute because you know me.
I'll just carry on going.
Karen Wylie (09:55):
It's interesting to hear you talk about this because, Gail, you've described what it was like for you to take each of these different steps, adopting the different modalities, and begin making nature in all of its different forms.
Allowing it to take more of a lead in the care that you would provide the animals in your care.
(10:17):
So if we can take that and think about the individual pet parent out there who has a pet that's gotten a difficult diagnosis or possibly a terminal one, what does it look like when a family starts to trust Mother Nature?
Gail Pope (10:35):
Ooh, that's a difficult question because it's not easy to step into that world like in one big jump.
Again, it comes down to the baby steps that I always talk about.
If you are only familiar with the conventional veterinary world, the human world too, then I guess it depends because if you're coming into it before that period, I think I would step into it by thinking about diet with immune and organ support and seeing a gradual improvement in health and dabbling in herbs, homeopathy— what appeals to I think it's education.
(11:15):
It's learning about the different options.
"We've got this diagnosis going along, what would be the best way to approach it?"
Now if you have a terminal diagnosis, I think it's difficult to change course.
Some people are very focused on "I've dabbled in this or I've done that before and I want to stay with a natural course."
(11:39):
But those that haven't, I don't know that it's always a good idea to step into the holistic world towards the very end of life.
Maybe after a difficult diagnosis where we have time.
Definitely, I think taking baby steps into doing something different.
Again, it depends on the animal, it depends on the diagnosis.
(11:59):
Very often diet is a good place to start but sometimes it's not.
It's all about the animal and what's going to be best for them and the caregiver.
Because it can be a really big learning experience if you go, "Okay, this is it. I'm going to just start treating holistically." It's not a good choice.
I think embracing some of the holistic modalities, as I said, like immune support and organ support.
(12:24):
I think they are very good to begin with.
And diet, if you've been experiencing problems with please just gradual unhealthiness.
Very often if the animal is open to a gradual change in diet or to an immediate change, some love a good change in diet, but you know it all comes down to what's right for you and what's right for this animal and for your experience.
(12:48):
Because Mother Nature isn't only about healthcare.
It's care for oneself whether you are the animal or the human.
Honoring the birds, the bees, the flowers, the trees, taking time in nature and being with each other.
That's all a precious part of Mother Nature, it’s the stepping into the more energetic side which is very powerful, which takes you to reiki, to animal communication.
(13:15):
There are so many different— it's like a huge globe of opportunity, a menu which is why we ended up calling it our Menu for Healing.
You pick out what you fancy in that menu and that's the path that you take.
If it doesn't work for whatever reason or it doesn't feel that it's creating the balance that you're looking for then you step away or step sideways and try something else different.
Karen Wylie (13:40):
I think it's difficult to switch, as you're saying, when your pet is getting toward their end of life.
You're likely to see signs of decline regardless of what food you're providing or where their body is already naturally starting to prepare to die.
Gail Pope (14:04):
However, you just reminded me, that is also a time where maybe you're not going to change the way you are treating but you actually start to look at Mother Nature in a different way.
For instance, we use the term Mother Nature as an umbrella to so many different spiritual aspects, religious— there are so many different words.
(14:26):
But if you start to embrace the fact that Mother Nature as the other doctor in the room designed processes for us, designed the process of birthing, designed the same process turned it upside down for the other end of life.
Then we also have the process in the middle which is living, loving, and caring for the bodies that we live in.
(14:53):
I always like to think about the fact that our bodies are like our houses.
When we step into them when we are born, we have this new house.
"Oh my goodness, I'm a baby." Then when we are dying, we very gradually reach a point where we step out of this house into the next phase, whatever that may be.
We all have different ideas about what that next house may be and whether it is transition to the rebirth.
(15:19):
But when you acknowledge that there's a force greater at work then sometimes— one of the things I find most difficult as a human being is "being." When you're worried and when your loved one is approaching the end of life, it's very difficult to remember that "being" has a meaning.
(15:42):
Being in the moment is not easy because you're dealing with worry and stress and anguish and fear and all those other emotions that are coming up.
But when you can again, step back into Nature, you can let go and know that the symptoms of dying are very clear from the human world, from our animal world.
(16:05):
Once you know what those are, "Phew, okay that's less stress."
Once you know what they're not then you have this beautiful world of medicine whether it be conventional or holistic to help.
Because if there is pain in a chronic illness, it will most likely still manifest through the dying process.
(16:27):
However, if there is no pain and you are seeing some of what you know or you've learned or you've read that the natural symptoms of birthing or dying, they don't need to be treated because Mother Nature, that doctor who is very skilled in what she does, is there to organize the very natural process of the organs winding down, the blood flow, becoming less.
(16:51):
It's the natural process of actual dying.
It's difficult to trust that process if you don't know too much about it.
But if you start to learn a little more about it and you realize what's normal and what's not, then whether you are sitting with a mother, a grandmother, father, or an animal, you can recognize when they don't really want to eat very much or less, or nothing or drinking less.
(17:19):
You can see the trajectory which is normal.
However, we are in our human selves in the process of living where it is not normal to stop eating.
It's not normal to stop drinking.
It's not normal to lose all your energy.
Those are all the things we fear in this middle part.
But when we get to the end part, to me, we have to bring that other doctor into our equation while we are figuring out the way forward.
(17:47):
Because he or she has her part to play and if we interfere with that too much then it's a more difficult journey.
And then we start looking at the word euthanasia as being the most sensible way...
.... Karen Wylie (18:02):
as something to do that's where we fall back to "What can we do?" I think that is such a difficult point in the care of our pets, and it's something we tried to address a few weeks ago in our episode about, "How do you decide to stop treating?"
So we're stepping into this discussion that we're having today because on one hand you're describing the need to let go of needing to control and fix the problem.
(18:34):
Of course, we're trying to not just maintain the life of our pet but prevent them from leaving us.
We want to keep them with us as long as possible.
Surely there's going to be another vet out there who we can get a consult with.
Maybe there's another treatment out there that would work.
You and I have talked about this.
Sometimes we will be talking to pet parents and they will have consulted 6, 7, 8 different people from different modalities.
(19:05):
Totally different approaches because the pet parent is still trying to fix the problem that their pet seems to be on the path of leaving.
So they're trying to control that.
They're trying to stop that and they're not in the flow of being.
It's such a difficult time to be a pet parent and to honor what is happening that is natural to happen.
(19:33):
I think this is one of the areas where I understood your concept of the other doctor in the room right away but I was calling it something different.
I was talking about me honoring what my pet wanted to do.
But I still think it's the same force.
Gail Pope (19:50):
Animals almost want to follow the path of nature.
Karen Wylie (19:52):
And so our pets are more in tune with the other doctor in the room than we are.
And that is always, for me, the saddest moment in the trajectory of disease and the trajectory of a life.
Maybe they're 11 or 15 or hopefully older than that.
(20:14):
Love it when I can have them as long as possible but when I see them starting to not want to eat.
I'm watching them, they don't want the syringe of all their irresistible foods.
They're not irresistible anymore.
They're stepping down a different path and I have to wrestle with that emotionally— to accept.
Gail Pope (20:38):
Our biggest challenge as caregivers.
Karen Wylie (20:40):
It is and it's not something that you watch and you in 30 seconds you understand what the message is.
I generally take two or three days because I'm looking for it happening over and over where it's clearly a path that they're moving down as opposed to, eh, they just didn't feel like it today.
Gail Pope (21:00):
And again, I think what you're describing here is it being about education.
It's taken an awful lot of animals and an awful lot of years to bring me to where I am.
You are in a similar place and you've also learned from a lot of animals whereas a lot of people haven't.
A lot of people haven't learned from the humans that have passed away in their lives.
(21:24):
So I think one of the important things to bring up here is not only the other doctor in the room, but the world of hospice care, the comfort care approach.
We are talking at the moment after navigating a terminal diagnosis.
Where the doctor comes along with us but we are talking about continuing probably the path you've chosen for care in that period of time.
(21:49):
I guess meditation can help but once you understand the philosophy of the other doctor in the room.
Then when you are being in that moment and your head is a little clearer, you are not filled with anguish and worry about the medication, whatever you're doing or when you've got to do it, or how you are letting go a little bit, that's when you can start thinking about the other doctor.
(22:17):
The importance of mother nature and how you have an ally, you have a hand to hold.
So the more you start to trust and step into this circle of bringing the aids that you need it, it can release the worry and the tension, not completely ever.
Karen Wylie (22:37):
Not no, never completely.
I totally agree with you on that.
If people do learn more about what's possible with hospice care, there are still things for you to do.
But it's not fixing or controlling or preventing as much as going with.
Providing support and making sure your loved one is comfortable.
(23:01):
It is a different mindset to get into.
Otherwise it's, "oh my God! Better call the vet. I don't know what to do. It's time to euthanize."
Gail Pope (23:10):
I'm afraid these conversations always come back to euthanasia as the kindest way for a life to end, and I don't disagree with that completely because sometimes it is the kindest way for life, but it isn't the kindest way for all lives to end.
And again, our animals generally will show us.
They, they will follow the path to a natural way.
(23:32):
Sometimes they will show us very clearly that euthanasia isn't meant to happen.
I very often advise people who just don't know the way forward and I'll suggest that they make an appointment for euthanasia at this point, and then they sit down with their animal.
They talk it all through with them.
Very often the animal will die before the vet comes before the appointment is set.
(23:56):
So I think we have to bring both Mother Nature and the animal into the equation when we're in this period.
Literally perhaps we have to step back a little bit rather than try to manage everything.
Let's let go a little bit and let's take all these things into consideration and just see where we are in this situation and what feels the right way forward.
Karen Wylie (24:20):
What do you think the role of intuition is in this process?
Do you think some pet parents can begin to feel when it's time to stop pushing for more?
To stop the attempts to fix and stop and control?
Gail Pope (24:35):
I think our intuition is probably the most powerful thing that we all have.
I also think that towards the very end of life, our humanness steps in the way of it.
I think it's definitely there.
From my own experience, it's always there.
However, my brain is always coming up with the reasons why I should or shouldn't or didn't, or wouldn't or couldn't.
(24:58):
It's a very difficult period of time, and again, it's where meditation, reiki, balance for each and every day comes in as being important.
Dr. Mother Nature is very happy to sit with us and help guide us through that period of time.
That's why we created the peaceful checklist so it can help.
(25:20):
"I'm seeing that he seems restless." It's okay, have a look at the checklist.
Restlessness is very natural in people.
As bodily systems change, the body becomes a little restless and that's okay.
We can work with that in preferably a holistic way.
Everybody chooses their own path.
(25:40):
Just being in the moment and walking through that journey with that animal who you love more than anything in the whole world at this moment in time is the most most powerful place to be.
Scary— it can be very beautiful too.
Karen Wylie (25:57):
It can be scary and it's more beautiful if you're not fighting them at the very end where you're still trying to prevent them from leaving you.
Gail Pope (26:08):
That's right.
Karen Wylie (26:09):
Which is so hard to do.
I had like to get your input on this too because we've broached this at other times where we talk about our cultural views of death and dying.
Gail Pope (26:20):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (26:21):
Our avoidance of death and dying and the fact that death is so outsourced both for humans and in veterinary medicine.
So that we're protected in many ways from knowing as much as we could or should, and being as involved as we could be with our human loved ones.
(26:43):
Sometimes we still haven't accepted that their dying either until the day of or maybe still not even then.
Gail Pope (26:52):
You're taking us straight back into the hospice care conversation because if you recognize dying as birthing is a process.
But the process of dying happens generally months before we actually accept the fact that death is coming.
We see a gradual winding down which we don't necessarily, unless we're really used to it, we don't notice that until something happens where we start to panic.
(27:19):
It is a process and it does take some time.
Education— it's learning and acceptance.
Karen Wylie (27:26):
I think each of us are trying to do our own— what each of us can which is why we have these kinds of conversations and we teach as we do to try to bring this information to more people.
So that they can at least consider it as an option, as another path they could choose.
Gail Pope (27:46):
I love reading books about human hospice care where the author is telling the stories of the patients that they've worked with.
How they've worked through this chapter and all the different scenarios such as we are talking about.
They're all the same with animals.
We all panic at the same things and we all make decisions or don't make decisions the same as in the human world.
(28:11):
So I love reading these books and I think they're really good source of education for those that haven't experienced a lot of animal death or death even.
Humans who are dying can still talk.
They can still talk our language and they can explain how they're feeling and what's going on inside of them.
So that brings Mother Nature in as the doctor very clearly for some who really acknowledge the fact that they're in a natural state of winding down and they're okay with it.
(28:41):
They're completely fine.
And others who want to take this drug, that drug, try this, try that, fly to another country and take another treatment.
So we're all different.
It's all part of being human, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (28:55):
It is and I have read many of those type of books.
But so many of them that are written by members of the hospice medical team talk so much more about the energetic and the spiritual through the medical when they're really talking about hospice care and end of life.
Even though that medical expertise is maybe their role on the team.
(29:20):
Their observations and what they're learning and what they feel compelled to share is very much about the shift in energy.
Beginning to understand that which I think is a powerful thing because as you're saying, humans can be communicating their experience of it in ways that it's a little easier to hear the words from the human than to be looking into our little darling's eyes as I'm looking at my beautiful Callie here with me and trying to discern what it is they want or need as the next step.
(29:51):
So not surprisingly, this is a very big conversation.
Gail Pope (29:55):
I was just going to say, same thing.
I think we've done and dusted it for today.
Karen Wylie (29:59):
If we think about so many of the topics that we do have conversations about, we touch on so much of this.
But in closing the conversation today, I guess I'd like to ask you to be thinking about a pet parent out there who might be listening to this podcast and maybe facing some tough decisions with their pet.
(30:20):
Maybe they're trying to figure out if they want to try another treatment or just be with their pet.
What would you want them to hear from the other doctor in the room?
At that point when they're
when they might be receptive to guidance at that moment of moving forward to do things versus to be?
Gail Pope (30:44):
I think there are two things
That's what life is all about.
It's all about the love, the relationship.
For all of us, whoever we are, it's doing our best with love.
(31:05):
And just knowing after a being that we've loved has died and we look back, the one thing that can give us the courage and support is the knowledge that we did our best.
We did it with love.
We did it together.
Whether that be a human or an animal that you've loved, I can't think of anything more.
(31:27):
Fine, can you?
Karen Wylie (31:29):
No.
That's what I always strive for is to have that kind of— if their life is going to come to an end, that's how I want to be feeling when their physical life is over and the next part of their life— their spiritual transition has begun.
I want to have that sense that I'm at peace, that I've done what I could do and we're all good.
(31:51):
We're all okay.
Gail Pope (31:53):
Summed it up.
Perfect.
Karen Wylie (31:57):
My dear, thank you as always.
Gail Pope (31:59):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (32:01):
This is an important concept and I think the way you talk about it and when you say the other doctor in the room, it encompasses so much.
Gail Pope (32:10):
It does, it really does.
But it's so much powerful.
We are so focused as humans in the direction we're going and are we doing it right or wrong but once we open it up to a more spiritual approach— Nature.
That's what it's all about.
Karen Wylie (32:25):
That is what it's all about.
You've said it all.
There's no other conclusion or ending point.
You have definitely provided a wonderful, inspirational last words and thank you as always.
We hope that this conversation has been interesting and of value to you as you reflect on your path with your pets.
(32:51):
We do want to remind you that our Cuppa and Conversations are on Thursdays at 10:00 AM Pacific, 1:00 PM Eastern every Thursday.
You can find information about that on the BrightPathForPets.com homepage.
We hope you'll join us there and we hope you'll join us next week on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
(33:11):
Thank you so much for being with us.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (33:14):
Goodbye and thank you.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(33:50):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen and I'm here with Gail.
Today we're going to talk about something that is deeply important.
Something that might change the way you think about your pet's care especially near the end of life.
Because there comes a point in most caregiving journeys where the medical advice can only take us so far.
(01:16):
And what do you do then?
What steps in?
What kind of wisdom is available at that point for you and your animal?
So today we're going to explore a little bit about what it means to recognize that there's a different presence available for you to tap into, to trust, and to perhaps shift our role from "doing" to more of "being."
(01:40):
I think that's something you often encourage us to do, Gail.
So I'm going to let you start at the very beginning and tell us who the other doctor in the room is because that's a phrase that I have heard you use so often whether we're speaking here on the podcast or with students in animal hospice group.
(02:04):
So why don't you start us out with who the other doctor in the room is that you talk about and how you discovered it?
Gail Pope (02:11):
I'm not entirely sure where to begin because it's such a long journey to such an easy ending because the other doctor in the room is Dr. Mother Nature and the foundation of the world that we live in.
Golly, I guess I just need to go back to the beginning and how it grew into my life.
(02:33):
Early days of BrightHaven in the mid-nineties, I was working for a conventional veterinary practice with the most wonderful veterinarian who changed my life, taught me everything he knew.
And oh my God, he was very eager to learn about holistic medicine— something I'd never even heard of in those days.
However, he had a family and he said, "You know what? If you learn anything in the work you're doing with the sanctuary, share it with me."
(02:57):
And he's just a wonderful person.
Anyway, I was working for him and learning more than I can ever share about the world of conventional care and loving every minute.
Then we had a volunteer at the sanctuary.
Her name was Vicki Allinson.
She was a little strange.
She was more than a little strange.
She had some strange ideas.
But the animals absolutely loved her.
(03:17):
Little by little, she became part of daily life.
She was always there.
Always supportive or a little bit bullying.
She was very tough.
The first thing that she was tough about actually was the diet that I was feeding to the animals.
She started off with, "You're not feeding a natural diet. Mother Nature didn't intend animals to eat kibble."
(03:40):
"No but this is veterinarian recommended and you don't understand."
So that was very odd.
We'd had a huge donation of kibble, all these bags stored in the garage.
I think it was worth about $800 and no way I was going to change my mind.
Then over a short period of time,
one by one animals were winding down or becoming less healthy, and we were treating them as best we could.
(04:06):
Then they would generally die.
They'd be euthanized.
It was the way we did our best.
We did it with love and then the animal died.
And that was okay.
That was the way of things.
And Vicki said, "Why don't you come back one day and think about diet and just think about the overall level of health of the animals?"
And I said "What do you mean?"
She said, "They don't look terribly healthy. I think we could actually talk about treating them a little differently but let's begin with diet."
(04:33):
So finally she persuaded me to try this thing that she called a natural raw meat diet.
I thought all the animals were going to die.
They didn't die and they flourished and it was a new energy hit the sanctuary.
Old cats were now chasing toys across the floor and fur was starting to shine.
(04:53):
It didn't look old and rumpled as it had before.
So I was totally immersed in this.
Then, what came next?
I think it was probably Homeopathy which was even more voodoo to me at that time.
I had a cat called Cindy who was very close to the end of her life.
In fact, I wanted to take her in for euthanasia that day.
(05:14):
I called Vicki, asked her to come and if she could babysit because I didn't have anybody else at the sanctuary.
And she said, "No, but I can offer you some help."
So I said, "What do you mean?"
She said, "I honestly think you could treat her with homeopathy."
I said, Vicki, "She's dying."
She said, "I hear you but why don't you let a friend of mine just talk to you?"
(05:38):
And I was like, "There's no way, I need to go to work. Could you just babysit?"
And she said, "No, I'm sorry. I've got an appointment. I have to leave."
So there I am stranded and a few minutes later the phone rang and a voice said, "May I speak to Gail Pope?"
And I said, "Yes, speaking."
She said, "My name's Dr. Christina Chambreau." Christina loves this story.
(05:58):
And I said "Hello."
And she said, "I understand you've got a kitty that is in need of some help?" And I said right away, "Oh, I'm so sorry.
Vicki doesn't understand.
Cindy's actually getting very close to the end of her life and I'm so sorry to have troubled you."
And there was total silence for a moment.
Then she said, in only Christina's voice, "Excuse me who's the veterinarian here, you or me?"
(06:23):
And I was shocked.
I was embarrassed.
I'm like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." Anyway, she told me to sit down and the long story short, she prescribed a homeopathic remedy that Vicki brought to the house and Cindy lived on.
Wow!
Sometimes it takes a miracle to actually shock you awake because actually the day afterwards when I was back in the office, I was a receptionist, and they received blood work.
(06:48):
I'm remembering it in order now.
The lab called to say that they weren't going to charge us for one of the labs that came in because obviously the cat had died and we were such a good customer, they wouldn't charge us.
So if you'd like to pass that on and it was Cindy's blood work.
So that really underscored the fact that "UH-OH! wow, she didn't die. She's still alive and kicking somewhat."
(07:12):
So that brought me into the world of homeopathy.
Christina introduced me to actually 24 vets who volunteered to work with our animals.
It was a crazy time and it was very scary.
I still leaned into antibiotics and the various drugs that we used for upper respiratory and the things that I was familiar with coming in with new animals.
(07:33):
But little by little, I started to see how they didn't need the antibiotic.
Little by little, it showed me a new way.
Again, Vicki's like you know, "We are leaning to the plant kingdom.
We are leaning into the Mother Nature's world.
We're working holistically, so this is great.
I have someone else for you to meet."
(07:57):
So then came Western Herbs and Greg Tilford, who is the owner of a company called Animal Essentials.
Still going now and doing wonderful work.
And Greg came and toured the sanctuary and he said, "I'd love to donate some products for you to start trying with the animals like tinkle tonic for the renal girls and stuff like that." So that began the journey with Herbology which till that point I hadn't known anything about.
(08:25):
But that took me even deeper into this world of mother nature.
At the same time, Vicki was practicing this very strange thing called Reiki which the cats seem to love, the dogs seem to love, the horses seem to put their heads down and just smile.
I didn't really understand what it was.
She talked about energy and again, the world of Mother Nature.
(08:49):
She said one day a teacher will come into your life and she will teach you.
Because I'd said, "Could you teach me this stuff?"
And she said, "No, I'm not meant to be your teacher. Your teacher will appear when you're ready." Then Kathleen appeared.
Kathleen Prasad became a central part of the BrightHaven Menu for Healing which was gradually developing.
(09:10):
And this took a period of years as I was exploring natural medicine— very tentatively then getting hooked and then realizing the deeper meaning.
That's when I guess I probably started doing some consultations in the early 2000's and people were asking, "What do you do and how do your animals glow with health when they're in their twenties sometimes or even if they're dealing with a chronic illness and they're younger?"
(09:39):
She became such a reality to me that I guess I started learning about symptoms and how we treat symptoms.
So many things.
I'll shut up for a minute because you know me.
I'll just carry on going.
Karen Wylie (09:55):
It's interesting to hear you talk about this because, Gail, you've described what it was like for you to take each of these different steps, adopting the different modalities, and begin making nature in all of its different forms.
Allowing it to take more of a lead in the care that you would provide the animals in your care.
(10:17):
So if we can take that and think about the individual pet parent out there who has a pet that's gotten a difficult diagnosis or possibly a terminal one, what does it look like when a family starts to trust Mother Nature?
Gail Pope (10:35):
Ooh, that's a difficult question because it's not easy to step into that world like in one big jump.
Again, it comes down to the baby steps that I always talk about.
If you are only familiar with the conventional veterinary world, the human world too, then I guess it depends because if you're coming into it before that period, I think I would step into it by thinking about diet with immune and organ support and seeing a gradual improvement in health and dabbling in herbs, homeopathy— what appeals to I think it's education.
(11:15):
It's learning about the different options.
"We've got this diagnosis going along, what would be the best way to approach it?"
Now if you have a terminal diagnosis, I think it's difficult to change course.
Some people are very focused on "I've dabbled in this or I've done that before and I want to stay with a natural course."
(11:39):
But those that haven't, I don't know that it's always a good idea to step into the holistic world towards the very end of life.
Maybe after a difficult diagnosis where we have time.
Definitely, I think taking baby steps into doing something different.
Again, it depends on the animal, it depends on the diagnosis.
(11:59):
Very often diet is a good place to start but sometimes it's not.
It's all about the animal and what's going to be best for them and the caregiver.
Because it can be a really big learning experience if you go, "Okay, this is it. I'm going to just start treating holistically." It's not a good choice.
I think embracing some of the holistic modalities, as I said, like immune support and organ support.
(12:24):
I think they are very good to begin with.
And diet, if you've been experiencing problems with please just gradual unhealthiness.
Very often if the animal is open to a gradual change in diet or to an immediate change, some love a good change in diet, but you know it all comes down to what's right for you and what's right for this animal and for your experience.
(12:48):
Because Mother Nature isn't only about healthcare.
It's care for oneself whether you are the animal or the human.
Honoring the birds, the bees, the flowers, the trees, taking time in nature and being with each other.
That's all a precious part of Mother Nature, it’s the stepping into the more energetic side which is very powerful, which takes you to reiki, to animal communication.
(13:15):
There are so many different— it's like a huge globe of opportunity, a menu which is why we ended up calling it our Menu for Healing.
You pick out what you fancy in that menu and that's the path that you take.
If it doesn't work for whatever reason or it doesn't feel that it's creating the balance that you're looking for then you step away or step sideways and try something else different.
Karen Wylie (13:40):
I think it's difficult to switch, as you're saying, when your pet is getting toward their end of life.
You're likely to see signs of decline regardless of what food you're providing or where their body is already naturally starting to prepare to die.
Gail Pope (14:04):
However, you just reminded me, that is also a time where maybe you're not going to change the way you are treating but you actually start to look at Mother Nature in a different way.
For instance, we use the term Mother Nature as an umbrella to so many different spiritual aspects, religious— there are so many different words.
(14:26):
But if you start to embrace the fact that Mother Nature as the other doctor in the room designed processes for us, designed the process of birthing, designed the same process turned it upside down for the other end of life.
Then we also have the process in the middle which is living, loving, and caring for the bodies that we live in.
(14:53):
I always like to think about the fact that our bodies are like our houses.
When we step into them when we are born, we have this new house.
"Oh my goodness, I'm a baby." Then when we are dying, we very gradually reach a point where we step out of this house into the next phase, whatever that may be.
We all have different ideas about what that next house may be and whether it is transition to the rebirth.
(15:19):
But when you acknowledge that there's a force greater at work then sometimes— one of the things I find most difficult as a human being is "being." When you're worried and when your loved one is approaching the end of life, it's very difficult to remember that "being" has a meaning.
(15:42):
Being in the moment is not easy because you're dealing with worry and stress and anguish and fear and all those other emotions that are coming up.
But when you can again, step back into Nature, you can let go and know that the symptoms of dying are very clear from the human world, from our animal world.
(16:05):
Once you know what those are, "Phew, okay that's less stress."
Once you know what they're not then you have this beautiful world of medicine whether it be conventional or holistic to help.
Because if there is pain in a chronic illness, it will most likely still manifest through the dying process.
(16:27):
However, if there is no pain and you are seeing some of what you know or you've learned or you've read that the natural symptoms of birthing or dying, they don't need to be treated because Mother Nature, that doctor who is very skilled in what she does, is there to organize the very natural process of the organs winding down, the blood flow, becoming less.
(16:51):
It's the natural process of actual dying.
It's difficult to trust that process if you don't know too much about it.
But if you start to learn a little more about it and you realize what's normal and what's not, then whether you are sitting with a mother, a grandmother, father, or an animal, you can recognize when they don't really want to eat very much or less, or nothing or drinking less.
(17:19):
You can see the trajectory which is normal.
However, we are in our human selves in the process of living where it is not normal to stop eating.
It's not normal to stop drinking.
It's not normal to lose all your energy.
Those are all the things we fear in this middle part.
But when we get to the end part, to me, we have to bring that other doctor into our equation while we are figuring out the way forward.
(17:47):
Because he or she has her part to play and if we interfere with that too much then it's a more difficult journey.
And then we start looking at the word euthanasia as being the most sensible way...
.... Karen Wylie (18:02):
as something to do that's where we fall back to "What can we do?" I think that is such a difficult point in the care of our pets, and it's something we tried to address a few weeks ago in our episode about, "How do you decide to stop treating?"
So we're stepping into this discussion that we're having today because on one hand you're describing the need to let go of needing to control and fix the problem.
(18:34):
Of course, we're trying to not just maintain the life of our pet but prevent them from leaving us.
We want to keep them with us as long as possible.
Surely there's going to be another vet out there who we can get a consult with.
Maybe there's another treatment out there that would work.
You and I have talked about this.
Sometimes we will be talking to pet parents and they will have consulted 6, 7, 8 different people from different modalities.
(19:05):
Totally different approaches because the pet parent is still trying to fix the problem that their pet seems to be on the path of leaving.
So they're trying to control that.
They're trying to stop that and they're not in the flow of being.
It's such a difficult time to be a pet parent and to honor what is happening that is natural to happen.
(19:33):
I think this is one of the areas where I understood your concept of the other doctor in the room right away but I was calling it something different.
I was talking about me honoring what my pet wanted to do.
But I still think it's the same force.
Gail Pope (19:50):
Animals almost want to follow the path of nature.
Karen Wylie (19:52):
And so our pets are more in tune with the other doctor in the room than we are.
And that is always, for me, the saddest moment in the trajectory of disease and the trajectory of a life.
Maybe they're 11 or 15 or hopefully older than that.
(20:14):
Love it when I can have them as long as possible but when I see them starting to not want to eat.
I'm watching them, they don't want the syringe of all their irresistible foods.
They're not irresistible anymore.
They're stepping down a different path and I have to wrestle with that emotionally— to accept.
Gail Pope (20:38):
Our biggest challenge as caregivers.
Karen Wylie (20:40):
It is and it's not something that you watch and you in 30 seconds you understand what the message is.
I generally take two or three days because I'm looking for it happening over and over where it's clearly a path that they're moving down as opposed to, eh, they just didn't feel like it today.
Gail Pope (21:00):
And again, I think what you're describing here is it being about education.
It's taken an awful lot of animals and an awful lot of years to bring me to where I am.
You are in a similar place and you've also learned from a lot of animals whereas a lot of people haven't.
A lot of people haven't learned from the humans that have passed away in their lives.
(21:24):
So I think one of the important things to bring up here is not only the other doctor in the room, but the world of hospice care, the comfort care approach.
We are talking at the moment after navigating a terminal diagnosis.
Where the doctor comes along with us but we are talking about continuing probably the path you've chosen for care in that period of time.
(21:49):
I guess meditation can help but once you understand the philosophy of the other doctor in the room.
Then when you are being in that moment and your head is a little clearer, you are not filled with anguish and worry about the medication, whatever you're doing or when you've got to do it, or how you are letting go a little bit, that's when you can start thinking about the other doctor.
(22:17):
The importance of mother nature and how you have an ally, you have a hand to hold.
So the more you start to trust and step into this circle of bringing the aids that you need it, it can release the worry and the tension, not completely ever.
Karen Wylie (22:37):
Not no, never completely.
I totally agree with you on that.
If people do learn more about what's possible with hospice care, there are still things for you to do.
But it's not fixing or controlling or preventing as much as going with.
Providing support and making sure your loved one is comfortable.
(23:01):
It is a different mindset to get into.
Otherwise it's, "oh my God! Better call the vet. I don't know what to do. It's time to euthanize."
Gail Pope (23:10):
I'm afraid these conversations always come back to euthanasia as the kindest way for a life to end, and I don't disagree with that completely because sometimes it is the kindest way for life, but it isn't the kindest way for all lives to end.
And again, our animals generally will show us.
They, they will follow the path to a natural way.
(23:32):
Sometimes they will show us very clearly that euthanasia isn't meant to happen.
I very often advise people who just don't know the way forward and I'll suggest that they make an appointment for euthanasia at this point, and then they sit down with their animal.
They talk it all through with them.
Very often the animal will die before the vet comes before the appointment is set.
(23:56):
So I think we have to bring both Mother Nature and the animal into the equation when we're in this period.
Literally perhaps we have to step back a little bit rather than try to manage everything.
Let's let go a little bit and let's take all these things into consideration and just see where we are in this situation and what feels the right way forward.
Karen Wylie (24:20):
What do you think the role of intuition is in this process?
Do you think some pet parents can begin to feel when it's time to stop pushing for more?
To stop the attempts to fix and stop and control?
Gail Pope (24:35):
I think our intuition is probably the most powerful thing that we all have.
I also think that towards the very end of life, our humanness steps in the way of it.
I think it's definitely there.
From my own experience, it's always there.
However, my brain is always coming up with the reasons why I should or shouldn't or didn't, or wouldn't or couldn't.
(24:58):
It's a very difficult period of time, and again, it's where meditation, reiki, balance for each and every day comes in as being important.
Dr. Mother Nature is very happy to sit with us and help guide us through that period of time.
That's why we created the peaceful checklist so it can help.
(25:20):
"I'm seeing that he seems restless." It's okay, have a look at the checklist.
Restlessness is very natural in people.
As bodily systems change, the body becomes a little restless and that's okay.
We can work with that in preferably a holistic way.
Everybody chooses their own path.
(25:40):
Just being in the moment and walking through that journey with that animal who you love more than anything in the whole world at this moment in time is the most most powerful place to be.
Scary— it can be very beautiful too.
Karen Wylie (25:57):
It can be scary and it's more beautiful if you're not fighting them at the very end where you're still trying to prevent them from leaving you.
Gail Pope (26:08):
That's right.
Karen Wylie (26:09):
Which is so hard to do.
I had like to get your input on this too because we've broached this at other times where we talk about our cultural views of death and dying.
Gail Pope (26:20):
Yes.
Karen Wylie (26:21):
Our avoidance of death and dying and the fact that death is so outsourced both for humans and in veterinary medicine.
So that we're protected in many ways from knowing as much as we could or should, and being as involved as we could be with our human loved ones.
(26:43):
Sometimes we still haven't accepted that their dying either until the day of or maybe still not even then.
Gail Pope (26:52):
You're taking us straight back into the hospice care conversation because if you recognize dying as birthing is a process.
But the process of dying happens generally months before we actually accept the fact that death is coming.
We see a gradual winding down which we don't necessarily, unless we're really used to it, we don't notice that until something happens where we start to panic.
(27:19):
It is a process and it does take some time.
Education— it's learning and acceptance.
Karen Wylie (27:26):
I think each of us are trying to do our own— what each of us can which is why we have these kinds of conversations and we teach as we do to try to bring this information to more people.
So that they can at least consider it as an option, as another path they could choose.
Gail Pope (27:46):
I love reading books about human hospice care where the author is telling the stories of the patients that they've worked with.
How they've worked through this chapter and all the different scenarios such as we are talking about.
They're all the same with animals.
We all panic at the same things and we all make decisions or don't make decisions the same as in the human world.
(28:11):
So I love reading these books and I think they're really good source of education for those that haven't experienced a lot of animal death or death even.
Humans who are dying can still talk.
They can still talk our language and they can explain how they're feeling and what's going on inside of them.
So that brings Mother Nature in as the doctor very clearly for some who really acknowledge the fact that they're in a natural state of winding down and they're okay with it.
(28:41):
They're completely fine.
And others who want to take this drug, that drug, try this, try that, fly to another country and take another treatment.
So we're all different.
It's all part of being human, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (28:55):
It is and I have read many of those type of books.
But so many of them that are written by members of the hospice medical team talk so much more about the energetic and the spiritual through the medical when they're really talking about hospice care and end of life.
Even though that medical expertise is maybe their role on the team.
(29:20):
Their observations and what they're learning and what they feel compelled to share is very much about the shift in energy.
Beginning to understand that which I think is a powerful thing because as you're saying, humans can be communicating their experience of it in ways that it's a little easier to hear the words from the human than to be looking into our little darling's eyes as I'm looking at my beautiful Callie here with me and trying to discern what it is they want or need as the next step.
(29:51):
So not surprisingly, this is a very big conversation.
Gail Pope (29:55):
I was just going to say, same thing.
I think we've done and dusted it for today.
Karen Wylie (29:59):
If we think about so many of the topics that we do have conversations about, we touch on so much of this.
But in closing the conversation today, I guess I'd like to ask you to be thinking about a pet parent out there who might be listening to this podcast and maybe facing some tough decisions with their pet.
(30:20):
Maybe they're trying to figure out if they want to try another treatment or just be with their pet.
What would you want them to hear from the other doctor in the room?
At that point when they're
when they might be receptive to guidance at that moment of moving forward to do things versus to be?
Gail Pope (30:44):
I think there are two things
That's what life is all about.
It's all about the love, the relationship.
For all of us, whoever we are, it's doing our best with love.
(31:05):
And just knowing after a being that we've loved has died and we look back, the one thing that can give us the courage and support is the knowledge that we did our best.
We did it with love.
We did it together.
Whether that be a human or an animal that you've loved, I can't think of anything more.
(31:27):
Fine, can you?
Karen Wylie (31:29):
No.
That's what I always strive for is to have that kind of— if their life is going to come to an end, that's how I want to be feeling when their physical life is over and the next part of their life— their spiritual transition has begun.
I want to have that sense that I'm at peace, that I've done what I could do and we're all good.
(31:51):
We're all okay.
Gail Pope (31:53):
Summed it up.
Perfect.
Karen Wylie (31:57):
My dear, thank you as always.
Gail Pope (31:59):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (32:01):
This is an important concept and I think the way you talk about it and when you say the other doctor in the room, it encompasses so much.
Gail Pope (32:10):
It does, it really does.
But it's so much powerful.
We are so focused as humans in the direction we're going and are we doing it right or wrong but once we open it up to a more spiritual approach— Nature.
That's what it's all about.
Karen Wylie (32:25):
That is what it's all about.
You've said it all.
There's no other conclusion or ending point.
You have definitely provided a wonderful, inspirational last words and thank you as always.
We hope that this conversation has been interesting and of value to you as you reflect on your path with your pets.
(32:51):
We do want to remind you that our Cuppa and Conversations are on Thursdays at 10:00 AM Pacific, 1:00 PM Eastern every Thursday.
You can find information about that on the BrightPathForPets.com homepage.
We hope you'll join us there and we hope you'll join us next week on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
(33:11):
Thank you so much for being with us.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (33:14):
Goodbye and thank you.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(33:50):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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