August 12, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) dive into one of the most misunderstood personalities: the quiet, awkward, and socially backwards schizoid. We take a critical look at the DSM’s definition of this personality; the developmental pathways leading to schizoid traits; and the unique and complex inner world of schizoids. Using a turtle metaphor, we explore how schizoids resort to fantasy and withdraw inside their shell, escaping from the overwhelming social world. We also explore how schizoid types are often mislabeled as having autism and briefly discuss their differences. We conclude by discussing reasons for the schizoid’s withdrawal, highlighting that our global misunderstanding of this type drives them further away from relationships and from psychological help.
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Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Schizoid Personality 03:45 Attachment Trauma in Schizoids 05:50 Schizoids are Like Turtles 07:18 Problems with the DSM-5 Schizoid 08:41 Psychodynamic Schizoid: A Conflict-Based Approach 10:33 Schizoid vs Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) 15:57 DSM Criteria for Schizoid Personality Disorder 19:41 The Challenges of Goal Setting 20:48 Decreased Sexual Desire 22:04 Sherlock Holmes: The Quintessential Schizoid 23:20 Anhedonia vs Depression in Schizoids 25:02 Difficulty Forming / Indifference to Relationships 30:33 Emotional Coldness and Detachment 33:53 Anger & Joy in Schizoids 37:36 Not Psychosis or Autism 38:36 Summary & Closing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all thingspersonality and clinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm herewith my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinicalpsychologists in clinical practice,
and today starts our new serieson schizoid personality.
(00:21):
Though least likely to showup in treatment,
understanding schizoids isstill so important.
Many patients that we've seen in clinical
practice often have schizoidcomponents to
their personality, and schizoid-oriented
people often find themselveswondering if they have
autism or other neurodivergent diagnoses.
As always, this topic is timelyand relevant, so
(00:45):
let's unpack the DSM criteria,its limitations,
and what this misunderstood personalitylooks like.
Let's dive in!
Alright, Doc Fish, I knowthat you are a huge
advocate for understandingschizoid personality.
Why do you think it's so important?
Yes, I think this is a hugecan of worms for me.
(01:07):
Basically, I have very strongfeelings about
the misrepresentation of schizoiddescriptions
in the research, as most researchersand theorists
seem to view schizoid personalitiesin a deficit-based
manner.
I don't agree, and I amvery disappointed,
especially in Milan, sincehe's usually my
favorite.
(01:27):
I know.
I think it's a complete disserviceand frankly,
narcissistic to look at a categoryof individuals
who refuse to be known justout of protection.
Ooh, wow.
Okay, there's a lot to unpack here, but
tell me what does it meanthat someone refuses
to be known out of protection?
(01:49):
Sure, so for the schizoid, they actuallydon't use a lot of defenses.
Their main defense is withdrawal.
So this can be physically withdrawing or
avoiding situations that involvesocial components.
It could be cognitively withdrawing or
engaging in fantasy, basicallylike not being present.
It could also include emotionalwithdrawal,
(02:10):
where they go to their safecave inside of
themselves to hide from overwhelmingemotions.
The word "schiz" means split.
So these individuals are split from their
present surroundings, whichis withdrawal,
basically.
So withdrawing physically, socially,and cognitively.
But it's important to note that these personalitytypes are still based in reality.
(02:36):
They're just withdrawn into hidingbecause the world is threatening.
So this is not schizophrenia.
That's not what we're talking about.
We're not talking about the splitin schizophrenia.
More on that another time.
So if we paint a picture of a schizoid,think about being on a battlefield.
You might have the paranoidnext to you who
has a shield for thingsto bounce off them
(02:57):
and ricochet onto other people.
Okay, so using projection.
Maybe a narcissist in their shinyarmor deflecting the violin.
Right, so their self-idealization.
Maybe a sadist with their sword, like
tearing other people down beforethey are destroyed
themselves.
Sure, so their defense mechanismis like omnipotent control.
(03:20):
Absolutely.
The schizoid person doesn'treally have anything.
So they freeze, they run, they hide, theysplit off from the world around them.
Right.
Okay, so a helpful thingto distinguish with
schizoid is that these typesare not dangerous.
They're just scared.
Like, love and life are verythreatening to them.
(03:44):
Right, so depending on whichtheorist we go
with, there's kind of two mainpaths to schizoid development.
One is where the infant experiencesthe mother is inconsistent.
So like there, then not there.
And then the infant associates love with
death, concluding that the needfor the mother is
what could actually destroy them.
(04:06):
Whoa, okay.
So there's distance, right?
The infant detaches fromthe mother because
the mother is unable to convincethe infant
that she loves them.
So then the infant rejects the dependencyand like love needs.
Wow, okay, this is powerful.
There's a lot here.
So what you're saying though,is that this
(04:28):
neglect, you're painting apicture of neglect.
And that is one of the pathwaysto schizoid.
The other pathway is where the mother's
too overwhelming to a highlysensitive infant
resulting in fears of being consumed oroverstimulated by the mother.
And therefore its existencecould be extinguished.
(04:49):
Like if there's no separation from mom,there's no self to exist.
So then the infant starts to reject their
normal dependency needs andtherefore avoids
closeness and attachment and they turninward to themselves for stimulation.
Oh, okay.
This is so interesting.
So schizoid development also happens when
(05:10):
the child is sensitive andhas a more like
introverted temperament to begin with.
And what you're saying is mom's energy is maybetoo much for the sensitive child or
mom doesn't have enough love to properlycare for the infant, which is neglect.
But then interestingly, there'salso a third
(05:32):
pathway, which can be kindof a combination
of both.
So a schizoid child then develops out of
this excess or deficiency inattachment or kind
of a combination of those two.
Right.
And then all that takes us backto that protection.
The schizoid child turnsinto an adult that
lives inside of themselves,doesn't let the
(05:54):
world in.
They keep to themselves.
They're quiet, kind of like turtles.
They just want to be in their shell andthat shell can be very hard.
They can actually be really stubborn and
not letting other peopleimpinge upon them.
Okay.
So firstly, I love turtles and I alsoreally enjoy schizoid personality.
(06:15):
So there may be a connection there.
So with turtles, I always look for them
sunning themselves and I tryto approach cautiously
without fast movement.
But every time my being there, even from
yards away seems to spookthem and they jump
right back in the water.
Like they don't want me to see them.
(06:37):
This is in contrast to theducks that either
just keep swimming or comeup to you and they
just want fed.
So, but a turtle is so much likea schizoid, right?
Like imagine being a turtle in an
inpatient setting with everyprovider trying to get
inside your shell and the other patientsare like loud and disturbing to you.
(06:58):
We are not setting schizoids upto be understood at all.
I think maybe we're doing the opposite.
Right.
I think the healthcare systemjust in general
is invasive and scary to them,to many really,
but especially the schizoid, which is why
they don't really seek treatmentbecause it
can be too much.
Mm-hmm.
Well, this brings us to myother gripe with
(07:21):
the DSM that we really describewhat's observable
and disregard the inner workings because
we're not, I don't know, patientenough or safe
enough for these personalities toexpress their true selves.
This is the only personalityin the DSM that
is described in languageof what is missing,
(07:41):
but not what is actually there.
Oh, right.
Okay.
So that's not helpful.
So we're basically just describing the
turtle shell, but not the actualturtle as a whole
or what's inside.
Like, so essentially we'rejust describing
the defense mechanisms, butnot the core of
the personality.
(08:01):
Mm-hmm.
And that makes me think thatit's basically
hard for us to even knowthat we're working
with the schizoid in treatment because
both research and the DSMhave not really told
us what it is, just what it's not.
Exactly.
And the research and portrayalof schizoid
personality disorder, it'scolorless and frankly
(08:23):
empty, which kind of parallels how othersview schizoid individuals.
Right.
Wow.
With this in mind, I know you've spent alot of time researching schizoid.
So how would you describethis personality
in a way that is not deficit-basedlike the
DSM?
I really like Nancy McWilliamsperspective
(08:45):
on schizoid, highlightinga conflict-based
approach instead of the deficit approach.
So that conflict is betweenwanting closeness,
but finding it dangerous leadingto that withdrawal.
Schizoids are scared of being overwhelmed,consumed, and golfed.
And so they choose distance.
Right.
(09:05):
And I think it's important to note that
multiple different personalitieschoose distance or
withdrawal, but their core fearsare going to be different.
This is why it's importantto talk about what's
under that shell because wehave to understand
the core drives and fears,not just the shell.
Right.
And so the schizoid needsto find the least
(09:26):
threatening lowest energyplace to exist in
order to survive that overstimulatingworld.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So how else would you describe the schizoidpersonality without using deficits?
So we have this highly sensitive individualand they're shy, overstimulated easily.
(09:47):
Some have described schizoids ashaving like thin skin.
So they learn that the world is intrusiveand dangerous to their existence.
Dependency and love are threatening.
They want the closeness, but they'retoo fearful of it.
Right.
They use that distance.
They physically withdraw and maybewithdraw into the mind.
(10:07):
Mm-hmm.
And this can especially bebecause they feel
emotion so powerfully thatthey have to push
them down and hide.
Then what's left for the world to see is
just that protective shellthat doesn't interact
with others or express emotions.
Right.
Yes.
So they feel emotion so powerfully thatthey have to suppress them and hide.
(10:31):
Like that is key.
They don't lack emotions.
Instead they fear being overwhelmed by thembecause they feel them so deeply.
And this right here is what setsschizoid apart from autism.
This is super important.
The DSM has one measly sentence sayingthat schizoid is not autism.
(10:54):
So they highlight that thedifference between
the two is that there's a presenceof stereotyped
behaviors and interest in autism.
That's not in the schizoid.
I think this is a gross underrepresentationof the differences.
Yeah, there are a lot of differences.
But what I like to say about schizoids isthat their social hardwiring is intact.
(11:16):
Like the circuit can justbe tripped easily.
So it shuts off to protect itself.
But in autism, there's problems withthe social hardwiring.
Like it's not fully intact.
So social relationships can't easily plug
in with autism because there'sproblems with
the connections and the wiring.
Yes, I actually love McWilliams example
(11:38):
where she differentiates schizoidwith autism.
So she states, I have heard autism or
Asperger's diagnosed parentssay that they had to be
taught that their child needsto be hugged.
Even if he had trouble getting himself to
hug his child, a schizoidfather would have
no difficulty understandingthe child's need.
(12:02):
Love that quote from McWilliams.
Yes.
So the detection of the cues is notthe problem with the schizoid.
It's what they do with it versus the
individual with autism even receivingthe cue can be
a challenge.
Yeah.
Ooh, okay.
So helpful.
Thank you, Nancy McWilliams.
All right, back to your definition,Doc Fish.
(12:24):
So in your research, yourunderstanding of
schizoid is that it's someonewho is extremely
introverted, shy and sensitive.
So while they long for closeness,it's too scary.
So they withdraw from relationships from
society and into their mindor their fantasies to
(12:44):
cope with how overwhelming life is.
So then the world sees them as withdrawnloners that are hard to get to know.
But again, these types arenot threatening.
Like, they're not going to hurt you any morethan a turtle is going to hurt you.
I mean, unless you stick your handin a shell, which is stupid.
(13:07):
Like, don't do that.
Yeah, for real.
Now, I did read that some schizoids can
apparently like explode if overstimulatedenough.
So that makes me think, like, have youever seen a tantruming turtle?
Oh my goodness.
I mean, yes, but only if youintruded too much.
Like it has to be pretty severefor schizoids to snap.
(13:32):
And even then it's like a snap cracklepop of a Rice Krispy.
Like, but even that is energy that youdon't normally see from the schizoid.
Yeah.
I mean, seriously, though, their anger or
aggression is probably more amusingthan threatening.
And I really do think that the turtle
(13:53):
analogy is perfect because havewe ever really seen
a turtle's belly?
Like, have we seen its inner world,at least like without death?
Right.
And I think that's the samefor the schizoid.
Yeah, I think so too.
One thing that I'll add here from my
experience in working with schizoidsis that they often
have a strong sense of morality, of right
(14:14):
and wrong as well, becausethey see the world
for what it is.
And then they often appreciate the rules,
the structure and just basichuman decency.
And I think that speaks to their sensitivitybecause they care deeply.
They may not text you to tell you about
their care, but they likelythought about it.
(14:35):
Yeah, I think that's a good thing to add.
Schizoids don't usually get knockedoff balance in their morality.
They can definitely thinkthat like social
sways, peer pressure, superficialbehaviors
are silly.
Yeah, they can actually be reallystubborn in that manner.
But I think their moralityand sense of self
comes from within and they'renot really influenced
(14:56):
by external pools.
Right.
Yeah.
So these types are not going togive in to the latest fad.
Like they've likely read about it.
I mean, if they've actually popped out
their little turtle head tosee what's going on
in the world, but they'renot going to engage.
They're consistent and they're not wishy
washy like the narcissist whois going to chase
(15:17):
after the new fad.
And with that, they likely see the
disingenuousness of the narcissistand it probably bothers
them, but they're not goingto act out about it.
They have a moral backbone unlike other
personalities, which again makesthem non-threatening.
Exactly.
And it just made me think of like if the
(15:37):
schizoids able to see all ofthose flags in the
elephant in the room, how are they supposedto react when everybody else isn't?
Yes, yes, it's too overwhelming.
Okay, so we have talkedall around the DSM
definition of schizoid, butlet's go there.
Let's talk about this disorderlevel schizoid
(15:59):
and what this thoroughly examinedturtle shell
looks like according to the DSM.
Okay.
Personality disorders haveto be long lasting.
They have to start before adulthood, be presentin a lot of different settings.
Now, the main patterns inschizoid include
detachment from social relationshipsand restricted
range of expression of emotionsin interpersonal settings.
(16:22):
Then there has to be four out of theseven following criteria.
Criterion one is not desiring or enjoying closerelationships, including being part
of a family.
Now, the diagnostic featureshighlight that
schizoids appear to lack adesire for intimacy
and seem indifferent to opportunitiesto develop close relationships.
(16:45):
They do not seem to experience
satisfaction from being part ofa group, even family.
Right.
Okay, here we can see that.
So the DSM is describing the shell.
Doesn't see, doesn't appear.
Part of that shell that they're trying to
describe in research andin the DSM is this
indifference, sometimes eventowards family
(17:06):
or just an overall coldnessor flatness towards
relationships.
But what the DSM doesn'tsay is that on the
inside, they do desire theserelationships.
They're just overwhelming andschizoids are scared.
And at the disorder level,which is where the
DSM is sitting, that's whatit's describing,
(17:29):
they will hide in that shell even more.
Exactly.
Okay.
Criterion two is that schizoidsalmost always
choose solitary activitiesdue to a preference
to spend time by themselves.
So the diagnostic features note again thatthey appear to be isolated or loners.
And then interestingly, the diagnostic
(17:50):
features also highlight that schizoidstend to prefer
like computers or mathematics or any kindof mechanical abstract tasks.
Yes, yes.
Okay.
All right.
So I think the DSM got partof this right here.
So firstly, schizoids do desire to be bythemselves rather than with you.
(18:13):
Like they are more likely to isolatethemselves or be alone.
And then secondly, yes, Ihave definitely seen
an interesting connectionwith STEM interests
and schizoid types.
And I wonder if this is because computers
are much easier to understandthan people.
Like their problems can be solved through clearmathematical solutions or zeros and
(18:36):
ones.
And you can sit in frontof a computer and
tune out the world and computersare not going
to intrude on you or maybe cross yourboundaries or require small talk.
Right.
Just like this schizoid.
Sometimes schizoids can really feellike computers or robots.
Like they themselves have felt that way.
(18:56):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I have heard multiple schizoidtypes say that
they've been called roboticor computer like
in their response to others.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So we have to look at how does their
temperament affect functioningat work, especially if
there's involvement with others.
They may not do well at work,but if they're
(19:17):
alone at work, they can actuallydo much better.
Mm hmm.
Right.
Okay.
So again, at the disorder level, which is
what the DSM is describing,functioning is going
to be impaired across settings.
So work may be a challengeor keeping a job
might be a challenge becauseof the social
energy that's required.
(19:39):
Mm hmm.
Then the DSM also notes thatdisorder level
schizoids can sometimes seemlike they have
no direction or that their goals drift.
Hmm.
This likely stems from energy expenditure
again and overwhelm becauseat more severe
levels having goals and steps to reach
those goals feels like toomuch and it requires
(20:03):
too much engagement with the social world,which is scary and threatening.
So it's easier just to not.
I have heard from multiple schizoids that
everything feels like a priorityat all times
because all of the data is important.
So then to prioritize somethingis difficult.
When you have a million boxesto go through
(20:24):
because you don't have asmany defenses, like
where do you start?
You barely have the energy to do one.
So that it's overstimulating.
They might drift betweenboxes maybe until
they're spent and they gohide and just avoid
all the boxes.
Right.
Yeah.
Like we're saying, like it'sall overwhelming.
Okay.
(20:44):
But there's more that the DSM has to say.
Right.
Criterion three is not having any or just havinga little bit of interest in sexual
experiences with others.
Now the associated features note that
schizoids usually have few friendsdon't often date
and don't often marry becauseof their lack
of social skills and lackof desire for sex.
(21:06):
Hmm.
Lack.
McWilliams on the other hand,notes that maybe
sensual intensity might be reservedfor something
that cannot elicit enmeshment.
Ooh.
So for example, a schizoidmight passionately
play as an instrument, butdemonstrate a quote,
mechanical or detached qualityin their lovemaking.
(21:27):
Huh.
Schizoids likely fear theintimacy part of
sex because they could beovertaken by that
dangerous closeness with thatthreat of enmeshment.
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
McWilliams slam dunk again.
Okay.
So I'm thinking of some of our greatestmusical composers.
They were likely schizoids, like their
(21:48):
ability to isolate for hourswith their craft, not
distracted by social happenings or
relationships that likely allowedthem to compose some
of our most respected piecesof music in history.
I would have to agree with that.
Yeah.
But then I'm also thinkingof Sherlock Holmes
here, who in my mind is kindof the quintessential
(22:10):
schizoid.
So he passionately pursuessolving mysteries
and crimes and he frequentlyreferences his
kind of mind castle and resortsto fantasy.
But this works in his favor and makeshim the best at his job.
However, he is extremely coldand calculated.
(22:34):
Sometimes it seems like he's missing socialcues because he just doesn't care.
Like he's there to solve the crime,not make friends, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So schizoid types and then especially
disorder level schizoids, whichagain is what the DSM
is talking about.
They can have an intense focus on their
(22:54):
work that in some ways seemsto be a substitute
for the passion, a relationship of theromantic kind would bring.
And sometimes I think thiscan get confused
with like restricted interestsand autism,
but it is different.
It is different.
Yes.
Yes.
Not the same thing.
We're not going to unpackthat can of worms.
(23:15):
We'll shelf that, bring it backdown for another episode.
Yeah.
Okay.
Back to the criteria.
Criterion four is anhedonia,which means not
enjoying experiences or activitiesthat would
normally be pleasurable.
This can include sex, butlike it could also
be watching a sunset or walkingon the beach
or even eating food.
(23:36):
Right.
Right.
So the DSM is telling us that schizoid
types don't react like we don'tget to see their
emotional response to most things thatpeople find pleasurable.
They probably prefer tostay in bed with a
book rather than go to Disney or just sit
in their chair thinking about something
really interesting rather thango out and consume
(23:59):
the best dessert.
So like things that othersfind pleasurable
may just simply not matchwith what a schizoid
finds pleasurable.
But even so, you're not really going to
see the expression of theirpleasure anyway.
Right.
Right.
You bring up some really, reallygood points here.
(24:19):
So schizoids often prefer the quieter,
more reflective and introversiveactivities to
the more extroverted and stimulatingones like Disney world.
But then if they do actually enjoy something,you may not even know it.
Like their affect or theirfacial expressions
may not change either way,like whether they
(24:39):
prefer it or not.
So they're not going to give you the satisfactionof having that data about them.
The turtle says, well, humans too close.
Jump in the water.
Oh my God.
No, but for real, that's funny.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Keeping it going with criterion five.
(25:00):
So schizoids, according to the DSM, don't
have any close friends orconfidants except
possibly a first degree relative.
So maybe a parent or sibling.
And I know how much you hate thiscriterion, Docfish.
I really do.
Okay.
So they don't find people safe.
Therefore they're not really going tohave many close attachments at all.
(25:24):
Now immediate family probably has the
highest probability of beingconnected to them.
But I hypothesize that if a safe person
consistently showed up for themwithout intrusion, they
would eventually come out of their shell.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah.
Now I think it was McWilliamswho retold a
case involving the providerFrida from Reikman
(25:47):
who sat with a catatonicpatient every day,
quote, making occasionalobservations about
what was happening on the ward, what thepatient's feelings about it might be.
For almost a year of thesedaily meetings,
the patient abruptly turnedto her and stated
that he disagreed with something she hadsaid several months previously.
(26:09):
Several months previously,they'd been stewing.
They'd been listening.
Like what?
Yes.
Well, because they're in there, right?
Just because they're notreacting or because
you yourself are viewing that,you know, they're
not connected.
They're still in there.
So I hypothesize that without the
(26:30):
consistency and the safety, whichit really does take
immense work for the other person.
Yeah.
So it's just really don't often engage.
Right.
Right.
And in this case, like the patientfelt safe only after a year.
Like that's significant, butthat's sometimes
(26:50):
the patients that is neededto really understand
these types.
Yeah.
And I will also point out that thiswas an inpatient setting.
So this was on the more severe end of
skeezoid, which we won't get intotoday, but it's still
fascinating and it's stillrelevant to the
conversation because it isthe same core under
(27:11):
the turtle shell.
Like no matter how crackedthat shell is or
how severe the personalityfunctioning is,
it's still like skeezoid at the core.
And that's what we're talking about.
Right.
So going back to just simply describing
that shell criterion six isappears indifferent
to others praise, approval, or criticism,
(27:33):
not appearing to be botheredat all by what
others may think about them.
Diagnostic features stateskeezoids may be
oblivious to the subtletiesof social scripts
and often don't appropriately respond to
like social cues, which leadsothers to perceive
them as socially inept, superficialand or self-absorbed.
(27:56):
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
There's, I'm seeing a pattern here.
Firstly, like there's so much judgmentof how they come across socially.
I can also see how this isone of the criterion.
So it's unusual, right?
To experience someone who comes across as
socially indifferent or whodoesn't care about
social cues.
(28:17):
Like our normal human reaction is that,
oh, this person maybe is sociallyinferior or
in their head.
But I do think it's interesting that our
societal judgment of skeezoidsmade it into the DSM.
Yes.
So like how we respond to them is also
(28:38):
part of the diagnosis, whichmakes me think of
the training that I went to a while back
that said that the dramatravels all around
the skeezoid.
I love that.
Oh my gosh.
Kind of like a turtle in the pond.
Like there's all this stuff going around,but it's just a turtle, right?
The turtle isn't causing the drama.
(29:00):
It's all around though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm also thinking though, with this
definition in the DSM, like skeezoidsdon't really have
their own space.
Like others, our judgment comes in tothat space, even in the diagnosis.
So I'm going, no wonder they don'tcome out of their shell.
(29:21):
Right?
Like how fitting that is their fear that
others will take up all thatspace and consume them
so that they don't exist.
And we over pathologize them.
So why would they stick their heads outand show who they really are?
Exactly.
Yeah.
We've done the very thing that they areafraid of in our diagnosing.
(29:43):
I think this really goes backto the skeezoid's
ability and necessity to keepthemselves separate
from others.
So others perspectives, their opinions,
approvals, criticism, thoseare the other persons.
They are not the skeezoids.
There's no connection or enmeshment.
So there's not really much stock put intowhat other people think about them.
(30:06):
The skeezoids own self approval and criticismis what matters to the skeezoid.
Yeah.
Basically this criterion here is that
they're not going to give youthe social data and
thus that comes across as indifferent.
But in order to understandwhy we've really
have to take the time andhave the patience
(30:27):
to understand them.
Exactly.
Okay.
Number seven is that skeezoidsshow emotional
coldness, detachment, or flattenedaffectivity
looking like bland on the outside because
others don't really oftensee their emotional
reactions.
Right.
Apparently they rarely reciprocate social
gestures or facial expressionslike nods or
(30:50):
smiles.
Internally, they report rarely havingstrong emotions like anger and joy.
But if they feel comfortable,which apparently
is unusual, they might reporttheir emotional
pain, particularly pain connectedto social interactions.
Interestingly, skeezoidsmay especially have
difficulty expressing anger,even in response
(31:12):
to being directly provoked, which results
in others having that impressionthat they
lack emotion.
Okay.
All right.
Poke the turtle and it's still going tojust turtle away in its shell.
Yeah.
All right.
So what I'm hearing fromthis criterion is
that skeezoids can detach fromtheir surroundings,
(31:35):
becoming more like an objective observer
versus an active participant,which can seem like
apathy.
So this can be due to theemotional overwhelm
though, that's evoked fromthose experiences
and it could also be thatthey do feel deeply
about these things and they'rejust not expressing
(31:55):
it.
The associated features in the DSM
highlight that they underreactor passively react to
hard situations and thatthey can struggle
to respond appropriatelyto important life
events.
But then I'm like, what doesappropriately even mean?
Right.
So what I'm guessing theDSM means here is
(32:16):
like appropriately meaningas one would expect
in the social world.
So for example, maybe like birthdays,
celebrations, death, funerals,job loss, those types of
things may be met with perceived apathyor detachment on the outside.
It's the shell.
However, on the inside, skeezoids do feel
(32:39):
deeply, but again, you justaren't privy to
that information.
And because they don't engage in most
defenses, they may not alwaysfeel the same kinds of
emotions that others might feel in those
moments because they have accessto all the emotions
and thoughts.
None are excluded.
And because of all of theemotional intensity
paired with that turtleynature, there's not
(33:02):
expression of the emotions.
They can absolutely look cold or aloof or
unaffected on the outside,even though they're
probably not.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
This makes me think I thinkthis is fascinating
research on avoidant attachmentdynamics shows
that even though a persondoesn't react on
the outside, their internalbiology is elevated.
(33:26):
So they measured skin response, heart rate,blood pressure, those kinds of things.
So it's elevated even more so thananxiously attached persons.
Right, right.
So they just detach from strong emotions.
And we're not privy to those inner
thoughts and feelings unlessit's safe to come out
and share those things.
(33:46):
But I will say too, like atthe disorder level,
that shell is going to be prettyhard to crack.
Now the DSM specifically mentions thatanger and joy are often lacking.
Now my first thought is like, have you
ever seen an angry turtleor a joyful turtle?
I mean, no, but I've seenan angry bear and
(34:09):
what seems to be a joyful otter,like different
creatures, different vibes than a turtle.
Exactly.
My actual hypothesis about joy though,
specifically is that it may be experiencedas too threatening
to express or perhaps even experience becauseit's likely been taken from them.
(34:30):
Oh, I wonder if it's a case of like, don'tfeel joy or excitement so that you don't
have to feel any disappointment.
Oh, this makes me think backto attachment.
Did mom take up all the space?
Like was her joy of having aninfant non-existent?
Like in that what you're sayingright there, I'm
hearing early attachment in thisdefense mechanism.
(34:53):
Oh, absolutely.
And just the misunderstanding of who theyare and the intrusion into their space.
Remember how you said that drama happensaround the schizoid.
So it makes me think about theirbirthday, right?
Because this is a celebrationof their existence.
How many times did that one day of yearly
celebration become overtakenby maybe a more
(35:15):
expressive sibling or parent?
The schizoid doesn't reallytake up space.
Because not only does thedrama happen around
the schizoid, but the expressionhappens around
the schizoid.
Other people are doing the expressing for thembecause the schizoid's experience is
internal.
Yep.
So then my hypothesis regarding anger isthat it can elicit hostility in others.
(35:39):
And so why would a turtleprovoke a bear or
engage in like a weird fightwith a beaver?
They're going to become overwhelmed.
So I disagree that they don't necessarilyfeel that anger inside.
I think they maybe just don't react or theypush it down or they detach from it.
McWilliams makes a specific note about
violent fantasies that the schizoidcan have though.
(36:01):
Oh, how interesting.
Yes.
Okay.
So the first thing that you said makesme think that anger begets anger.
So schizoids feel anger.
Certainly we all do no matterour personality
type, but we're not goingto see a schizoid's
anger unless it's safe.
And yes, instead of acting out that anger
(36:23):
in real life, which is waytoo threatening,
fantasy is going to be a greatway to work through it.
Right?
Okay.
Going back to what you said earlier
though, about like reciprocatingfacial gestures.
I was just thinking, I wonder if this isa power play for the schizoid.
Like I'm not going to give you the satisfactionof knowing my response.
(36:46):
I'll keep it to myself.
Thank you very much.
That is an interesting thought.
It makes sense because noone can then use
their emotions against them,which does limit
the possibility of being overwhelmedby other people.
I was also thinking aboutlike appropriate
social cues and how schizoidsmight find them
silly or just not worth their energy.
(37:08):
Why would you spend energynodding back to
that person at the gas stationthat you'll
never see again when you arebusy maybe thinking
about philosophical annihilationor like trying
to solve that computer codingproblem in your head.
Oh my.
Yes.
I do.
In other words, like why would I cast myintellectual pearls before swine?
(37:30):
That's funny.
Yes.
I think so.
But anyway, okay.
Wrapping up the criteria criterion B
explicitly notes that schizoidpersonality disorder does
not include psychosis though.
It may come before schizophrenia.
Correct.
Yeah.
So schizoid personality is not the same
(37:51):
thing as schizophrenia, butat severe levels, it
can disintegrate into a completesplit with
reality, but that is not thetopic for today.
Then also criterion B mentions, we alreadysaid this, but it's not autism.
Right.
Real quick recap of that.
Autism is social hard wiringissues versus
(38:14):
schizoid social emotional circuitgets overloaded.
So it shuts down, but it's notan issue with the wiring.
So in other words, schizoids receive thesocial cues and messages just fine.
They just probably don't tell you, which
can make it hard to distinguishfrom autism.
Save that for another episode,not for today.
(38:36):
Okay.
So in some, the DSM sucksin its definition
of schizoid personality disorderbecause it
defines it by what it lacks versuswhat it actually is.
The DSM highlights a lack of desire for
attachment and incapacity for emotionsresulting in empty
indifference.
(38:56):
Yeah.
Now in contrast, the psychoanalyticline of
thinking depicts schizoidtypes as feeling
deeply, but not partaking of the social
trifling that other personalitiesdeemed normal.
They're turtles with a harddoll shell, the
other sea, but that shell isfilled with fascinating
intensity that schizoids like tosit in all by themselves.
(39:19):
I couldn't have said that better.
Yeah.
Well put, Doc Fish.
All right.
And on that note, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us today on thisepisode of the personality couch.
Make sure to check out ourblogs that coincide
with these episodes at www.personalitycouch.com.
And as always, don't forget to give us a
(39:39):
thumbs up or rate and reviewus on your favorite
podcast app.
And on YouTube, hit thatbell so you don't
miss a single episode in ourschizoid personality
series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
(39:59):
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate resourcesin your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broadand universal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all thingspersonality and clinical practice.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, and I'm herewith my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinicalpsychologists in clinical practice,
and today starts our new serieson schizoid personality.
(00:21):
Though least likely to showup in treatment,
understanding schizoids isstill so important.
Many patients that we've seen in clinical
practice often have schizoidcomponents to
their personality, and schizoid-oriented
people often find themselveswondering if they have
autism or other neurodivergent diagnoses.
As always, this topic is timelyand relevant, so
(00:45):
let's unpack the DSM criteria,its limitations,
and what this misunderstood personalitylooks like.
Let's dive in!
Alright, Doc Fish, I knowthat you are a huge
advocate for understandingschizoid personality.
Why do you think it's so important?
Yes, I think this is a hugecan of worms for me.
(01:07):
Basically, I have very strongfeelings about
the misrepresentation of schizoiddescriptions
in the research, as most researchersand theorists
seem to view schizoid personalitiesin a deficit-based
manner.
I don't agree, and I amvery disappointed,
especially in Milan, sincehe's usually my
favorite.
(01:27):
I know.
I think it's a complete disserviceand frankly,
narcissistic to look at a categoryof individuals
who refuse to be known justout of protection.
Ooh, wow.
Okay, there's a lot to unpack here, but
tell me what does it meanthat someone refuses
to be known out of protection?
(01:49):
Sure, so for the schizoid, they actuallydon't use a lot of defenses.
Their main defense is withdrawal.
So this can be physically withdrawing or
avoiding situations that involvesocial components.
It could be cognitively withdrawing or
engaging in fantasy, basicallylike not being present.
It could also include emotionalwithdrawal,
(02:10):
where they go to their safecave inside of
themselves to hide from overwhelmingemotions.
The word "schiz" means split.
So these individuals are split from their
present surroundings, whichis withdrawal,
basically.
So withdrawing physically, socially,and cognitively.
But it's important to note that these personalitytypes are still based in reality.
(02:36):
They're just withdrawn into hidingbecause the world is threatening.
So this is not schizophrenia.
That's not what we're talking about.
We're not talking about the splitin schizophrenia.
More on that another time.
So if we paint a picture of a schizoid,think about being on a battlefield.
You might have the paranoidnext to you who
has a shield for thingsto bounce off them
(02:57):
and ricochet onto other people.
Okay, so using projection.
Maybe a narcissist in their shinyarmor deflecting the violin.
Right, so their self-idealization.
Maybe a sadist with their sword, like
tearing other people down beforethey are destroyed
themselves.
Sure, so their defense mechanismis like omnipotent control.
(03:20):
Absolutely.
The schizoid person doesn'treally have anything.
So they freeze, they run, they hide, theysplit off from the world around them.
Right.
Okay, so a helpful thingto distinguish with
schizoid is that these typesare not dangerous.
They're just scared.
Like, love and life are verythreatening to them.
(03:44):
Right, so depending on whichtheorist we go
with, there's kind of two mainpaths to schizoid development.
One is where the infant experiencesthe mother is inconsistent.
So like there, then not there.
And then the infant associates love with
death, concluding that the needfor the mother is
what could actually destroy them.
(04:06):
Whoa, okay.
So there's distance, right?
The infant detaches fromthe mother because
the mother is unable to convincethe infant
that she loves them.
So then the infant rejects the dependencyand like love needs.
Wow, okay, this is powerful.
There's a lot here.
So what you're saying though,is that this
(04:28):
neglect, you're painting apicture of neglect.
And that is one of the pathwaysto schizoid.
The other pathway is where the mother's
too overwhelming to a highlysensitive infant
resulting in fears of being consumed oroverstimulated by the mother.
And therefore its existencecould be extinguished.
(04:49):
Like if there's no separation from mom,there's no self to exist.
So then the infant starts to reject their
normal dependency needs andtherefore avoids
closeness and attachment and they turninward to themselves for stimulation.
Oh, okay.
This is so interesting.
So schizoid development also happens when
(05:10):
the child is sensitive andhas a more like
introverted temperament to begin with.
And what you're saying is mom's energy is maybetoo much for the sensitive child or
mom doesn't have enough love to properlycare for the infant, which is neglect.
But then interestingly, there'salso a third
(05:32):
pathway, which can be kindof a combination
of both.
So a schizoid child then develops out of
this excess or deficiency inattachment or kind
of a combination of those two.
Right.
And then all that takes us backto that protection.
The schizoid child turnsinto an adult that
lives inside of themselves,doesn't let the
(05:54):
world in.
They keep to themselves.
They're quiet, kind of like turtles.
They just want to be in their shell andthat shell can be very hard.
They can actually be really stubborn and
not letting other peopleimpinge upon them.
Okay.
So firstly, I love turtles and I alsoreally enjoy schizoid personality.
(06:15):
So there may be a connection there.
So with turtles, I always look for them
sunning themselves and I tryto approach cautiously
without fast movement.
But every time my being there, even from
yards away seems to spookthem and they jump
right back in the water.
Like they don't want me to see them.
(06:37):
This is in contrast to theducks that either
just keep swimming or comeup to you and they
just want fed.
So, but a turtle is so much likea schizoid, right?
Like imagine being a turtle in an
inpatient setting with everyprovider trying to get
inside your shell and the other patientsare like loud and disturbing to you.
(06:58):
We are not setting schizoids upto be understood at all.
I think maybe we're doing the opposite.
Right.
I think the healthcare systemjust in general
is invasive and scary to them,to many really,
but especially the schizoid, which is why
they don't really seek treatmentbecause it
can be too much.
Mm-hmm.
Well, this brings us to myother gripe with
(07:21):
the DSM that we really describewhat's observable
and disregard the inner workings because
we're not, I don't know, patientenough or safe
enough for these personalities toexpress their true selves.
This is the only personalityin the DSM that
is described in languageof what is missing,
(07:41):
but not what is actually there.
Oh, right.
Okay.
So that's not helpful.
So we're basically just describing the
turtle shell, but not the actualturtle as a whole
or what's inside.
Like, so essentially we'rejust describing
the defense mechanisms, butnot the core of
the personality.
(08:01):
Mm-hmm.
And that makes me think thatit's basically
hard for us to even knowthat we're working
with the schizoid in treatment because
both research and the DSMhave not really told
us what it is, just what it's not.
Exactly.
And the research and portrayalof schizoid
personality disorder, it'scolorless and frankly
(08:23):
empty, which kind of parallels how othersview schizoid individuals.
Right.
Wow.
With this in mind, I know you've spent alot of time researching schizoid.
So how would you describethis personality
in a way that is not deficit-basedlike the
DSM?
I really like Nancy McWilliamsperspective
(08:45):
on schizoid, highlightinga conflict-based
approach instead of the deficit approach.
So that conflict is betweenwanting closeness,
but finding it dangerous leadingto that withdrawal.
Schizoids are scared of being overwhelmed,consumed, and golfed.
And so they choose distance.
Right.
(09:05):
And I think it's important to note that
multiple different personalitieschoose distance or
withdrawal, but their core fearsare going to be different.
This is why it's importantto talk about what's
under that shell because wehave to understand
the core drives and fears,not just the shell.
Right.
And so the schizoid needsto find the least
(09:26):
threatening lowest energyplace to exist in
order to survive that overstimulatingworld.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So how else would you describe the schizoidpersonality without using deficits?
So we have this highly sensitive individualand they're shy, overstimulated easily.
(09:47):
Some have described schizoids ashaving like thin skin.
So they learn that the world is intrusiveand dangerous to their existence.
Dependency and love are threatening.
They want the closeness, but they'retoo fearful of it.
Right.
They use that distance.
They physically withdraw and maybewithdraw into the mind.
(10:07):
Mm-hmm.
And this can especially bebecause they feel
emotion so powerfully thatthey have to push
them down and hide.
Then what's left for the world to see is
just that protective shellthat doesn't interact
with others or express emotions.
Right.
Yes.
So they feel emotion so powerfully thatthey have to suppress them and hide.
(10:31):
Like that is key.
They don't lack emotions.
Instead they fear being overwhelmed by thembecause they feel them so deeply.
And this right here is what setsschizoid apart from autism.
This is super important.
The DSM has one measly sentence sayingthat schizoid is not autism.
(10:54):
So they highlight that thedifference between
the two is that there's a presenceof stereotyped
behaviors and interest in autism.
That's not in the schizoid.
I think this is a gross underrepresentationof the differences.
Yeah, there are a lot of differences.
But what I like to say about schizoids isthat their social hardwiring is intact.
(11:16):
Like the circuit can justbe tripped easily.
So it shuts off to protect itself.
But in autism, there's problems withthe social hardwiring.
Like it's not fully intact.
So social relationships can't easily plug
in with autism because there'sproblems with
the connections and the wiring.
Yes, I actually love McWilliams example
(11:38):
where she differentiates schizoidwith autism.
So she states, I have heard autism or
Asperger's diagnosed parentssay that they had to be
taught that their child needsto be hugged.
Even if he had trouble getting himself to
hug his child, a schizoidfather would have
no difficulty understandingthe child's need.
(12:02):
Love that quote from McWilliams.
Yes.
So the detection of the cues is notthe problem with the schizoid.
It's what they do with it versus the
individual with autism even receivingthe cue can be
a challenge.
Yeah.
Ooh, okay.
So helpful.
Thank you, Nancy McWilliams.
All right, back to your definition,Doc Fish.
(12:24):
So in your research, yourunderstanding of
schizoid is that it's someonewho is extremely
introverted, shy and sensitive.
So while they long for closeness,it's too scary.
So they withdraw from relationships from
society and into their mindor their fantasies to
(12:44):
cope with how overwhelming life is.
So then the world sees them as withdrawnloners that are hard to get to know.
But again, these types arenot threatening.
Like, they're not going to hurt you any morethan a turtle is going to hurt you.
I mean, unless you stick your handin a shell, which is stupid.
(13:07):
Like, don't do that.
Yeah, for real.
Now, I did read that some schizoids can
apparently like explode if overstimulatedenough.
So that makes me think, like, have youever seen a tantruming turtle?
Oh my goodness.
I mean, yes, but only if youintruded too much.
Like it has to be pretty severefor schizoids to snap.
(13:32):
And even then it's like a snap cracklepop of a Rice Krispy.
Like, but even that is energy that youdon't normally see from the schizoid.
Yeah.
I mean, seriously, though, their anger or
aggression is probably more amusingthan threatening.
And I really do think that the turtle
(13:53):
analogy is perfect because havewe ever really seen
a turtle's belly?
Like, have we seen its inner world,at least like without death?
Right.
And I think that's the samefor the schizoid.
Yeah, I think so too.
One thing that I'll add here from my
experience in working with schizoidsis that they often
have a strong sense of morality, of right
(14:14):
and wrong as well, becausethey see the world
for what it is.
And then they often appreciate the rules,
the structure and just basichuman decency.
And I think that speaks to their sensitivitybecause they care deeply.
They may not text you to tell you about
their care, but they likelythought about it.
(14:35):
Yeah, I think that's a good thing to add.
Schizoids don't usually get knockedoff balance in their morality.
They can definitely thinkthat like social
sways, peer pressure, superficialbehaviors
are silly.
Yeah, they can actually be reallystubborn in that manner.
But I think their moralityand sense of self
comes from within and they'renot really influenced
(14:56):
by external pools.
Right.
Yeah.
So these types are not going togive in to the latest fad.
Like they've likely read about it.
I mean, if they've actually popped out
their little turtle head tosee what's going on
in the world, but they'renot going to engage.
They're consistent and they're not wishy
washy like the narcissist whois going to chase
(15:17):
after the new fad.
And with that, they likely see the
disingenuousness of the narcissistand it probably bothers
them, but they're not goingto act out about it.
They have a moral backbone unlike other
personalities, which again makesthem non-threatening.
Exactly.
And it just made me think of like if the
(15:37):
schizoids able to see all ofthose flags in the
elephant in the room, how are they supposedto react when everybody else isn't?
Yes, yes, it's too overwhelming.
Okay, so we have talkedall around the DSM
definition of schizoid, butlet's go there.
Let's talk about this disorderlevel schizoid
(15:59):
and what this thoroughly examinedturtle shell
looks like according to the DSM.
Okay.
Personality disorders haveto be long lasting.
They have to start before adulthood, be presentin a lot of different settings.
Now, the main patterns inschizoid include
detachment from social relationshipsand restricted
range of expression of emotionsin interpersonal settings.
(16:22):
Then there has to be four out of theseven following criteria.
Criterion one is not desiring or enjoying closerelationships, including being part
of a family.
Now, the diagnostic featureshighlight that
schizoids appear to lack adesire for intimacy
and seem indifferent to opportunitiesto develop close relationships.
(16:45):
They do not seem to experience
satisfaction from being part ofa group, even family.
Right.
Okay, here we can see that.
So the DSM is describing the shell.
Doesn't see, doesn't appear.
Part of that shell that they're trying to
describe in research andin the DSM is this
indifference, sometimes eventowards family
(17:06):
or just an overall coldnessor flatness towards
relationships.
But what the DSM doesn'tsay is that on the
inside, they do desire theserelationships.
They're just overwhelming andschizoids are scared.
And at the disorder level,which is where the
DSM is sitting, that's whatit's describing,
(17:29):
they will hide in that shell even more.
Exactly.
Okay.
Criterion two is that schizoidsalmost always
choose solitary activitiesdue to a preference
to spend time by themselves.
So the diagnostic features note again thatthey appear to be isolated or loners.
And then interestingly, the diagnostic
(17:50):
features also highlight that schizoidstend to prefer
like computers or mathematics or any kindof mechanical abstract tasks.
Yes, yes.
Okay.
All right.
So I think the DSM got partof this right here.
So firstly, schizoids do desire to be bythemselves rather than with you.
(18:13):
Like they are more likely to isolatethemselves or be alone.
And then secondly, yes, Ihave definitely seen
an interesting connectionwith STEM interests
and schizoid types.
And I wonder if this is because computers
are much easier to understandthan people.
Like their problems can be solved through clearmathematical solutions or zeros and
(18:36):
ones.
And you can sit in frontof a computer and
tune out the world and computersare not going
to intrude on you or maybe cross yourboundaries or require small talk.
Right.
Just like this schizoid.
Sometimes schizoids can really feellike computers or robots.
Like they themselves have felt that way.
(18:56):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I have heard multiple schizoidtypes say that
they've been called roboticor computer like
in their response to others.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So we have to look at how does their
temperament affect functioningat work, especially if
there's involvement with others.
They may not do well at work,but if they're
(19:17):
alone at work, they can actuallydo much better.
Mm hmm.
Right.
Okay.
So again, at the disorder level, which is
what the DSM is describing,functioning is going
to be impaired across settings.
So work may be a challengeor keeping a job
might be a challenge becauseof the social
energy that's required.
(19:39):
Mm hmm.
Then the DSM also notes thatdisorder level
schizoids can sometimes seemlike they have
no direction or that their goals drift.
Hmm.
This likely stems from energy expenditure
again and overwhelm becauseat more severe
levels having goals and steps to reach
those goals feels like toomuch and it requires
(20:03):
too much engagement with the social world,which is scary and threatening.
So it's easier just to not.
I have heard from multiple schizoids that
everything feels like a priorityat all times
because all of the data is important.
So then to prioritize somethingis difficult.
When you have a million boxesto go through
(20:24):
because you don't have asmany defenses, like
where do you start?
You barely have the energy to do one.
So that it's overstimulating.
They might drift betweenboxes maybe until
they're spent and they gohide and just avoid
all the boxes.
Right.
Yeah.
Like we're saying, like it'sall overwhelming.
Okay.
(20:44):
But there's more that the DSM has to say.
Right.
Criterion three is not having any or just havinga little bit of interest in sexual
experiences with others.
Now the associated features note that
schizoids usually have few friendsdon't often date
and don't often marry becauseof their lack
of social skills and lackof desire for sex.
(21:06):
Hmm.
Lack.
McWilliams on the other hand,notes that maybe
sensual intensity might be reservedfor something
that cannot elicit enmeshment.
Ooh.
So for example, a schizoidmight passionately
play as an instrument, butdemonstrate a quote,
mechanical or detached qualityin their lovemaking.
(21:27):
Huh.
Schizoids likely fear theintimacy part of
sex because they could beovertaken by that
dangerous closeness with thatthreat of enmeshment.
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
McWilliams slam dunk again.
Okay.
So I'm thinking of some of our greatestmusical composers.
They were likely schizoids, like their
(21:48):
ability to isolate for hourswith their craft, not
distracted by social happenings or
relationships that likely allowedthem to compose some
of our most respected piecesof music in history.
I would have to agree with that.
Yeah.
But then I'm also thinkingof Sherlock Holmes
here, who in my mind is kindof the quintessential
(22:10):
schizoid.
So he passionately pursuessolving mysteries
and crimes and he frequentlyreferences his
kind of mind castle and resortsto fantasy.
But this works in his favor and makeshim the best at his job.
However, he is extremely coldand calculated.
(22:34):
Sometimes it seems like he's missing socialcues because he just doesn't care.
Like he's there to solve the crime,not make friends, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So schizoid types and then especially
disorder level schizoids, whichagain is what the DSM
is talking about.
They can have an intense focus on their
(22:54):
work that in some ways seemsto be a substitute
for the passion, a relationship of theromantic kind would bring.
And sometimes I think thiscan get confused
with like restricted interestsand autism,
but it is different.
It is different.
Yes.
Yes.
Not the same thing.
We're not going to unpackthat can of worms.
(23:15):
We'll shelf that, bring it backdown for another episode.
Yeah.
Okay.
Back to the criteria.
Criterion four is anhedonia,which means not
enjoying experiences or activitiesthat would
normally be pleasurable.
This can include sex, butlike it could also
be watching a sunset or walkingon the beach
or even eating food.
(23:36):
Right.
Right.
So the DSM is telling us that schizoid
types don't react like we don'tget to see their
emotional response to most things thatpeople find pleasurable.
They probably prefer tostay in bed with a
book rather than go to Disney or just sit
in their chair thinking about something
really interesting rather thango out and consume
(23:59):
the best dessert.
So like things that othersfind pleasurable
may just simply not matchwith what a schizoid
finds pleasurable.
But even so, you're not really going to
see the expression of theirpleasure anyway.
Right.
Right.
You bring up some really, reallygood points here.
(24:19):
So schizoids often prefer the quieter,
more reflective and introversiveactivities to
the more extroverted and stimulatingones like Disney world.
But then if they do actually enjoy something,you may not even know it.
Like their affect or theirfacial expressions
may not change either way,like whether they
(24:39):
prefer it or not.
So they're not going to give you the satisfactionof having that data about them.
The turtle says, well, humans too close.
Jump in the water.
Oh my God.
No, but for real, that's funny.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Keeping it going with criterion five.
(25:00):
So schizoids, according to the DSM, don't
have any close friends orconfidants except
possibly a first degree relative.
So maybe a parent or sibling.
And I know how much you hate thiscriterion, Docfish.
I really do.
Okay.
So they don't find people safe.
Therefore they're not really going tohave many close attachments at all.
(25:24):
Now immediate family probably has the
highest probability of beingconnected to them.
But I hypothesize that if a safe person
consistently showed up for themwithout intrusion, they
would eventually come out of their shell.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah.
Now I think it was McWilliamswho retold a
case involving the providerFrida from Reikman
(25:47):
who sat with a catatonicpatient every day,
quote, making occasionalobservations about
what was happening on the ward, what thepatient's feelings about it might be.
For almost a year of thesedaily meetings,
the patient abruptly turnedto her and stated
that he disagreed with something she hadsaid several months previously.
(26:09):
Several months previously,they'd been stewing.
They'd been listening.
Like what?
Yes.
Well, because they're in there, right?
Just because they're notreacting or because
you yourself are viewing that,you know, they're
not connected.
They're still in there.
So I hypothesize that without the
(26:30):
consistency and the safety, whichit really does take
immense work for the other person.
Yeah.
So it's just really don't often engage.
Right.
Right.
And in this case, like the patientfelt safe only after a year.
Like that's significant, butthat's sometimes
(26:50):
the patients that is neededto really understand
these types.
Yeah.
And I will also point out that thiswas an inpatient setting.
So this was on the more severe end of
skeezoid, which we won't get intotoday, but it's still
fascinating and it's stillrelevant to the
conversation because it isthe same core under
(27:11):
the turtle shell.
Like no matter how crackedthat shell is or
how severe the personalityfunctioning is,
it's still like skeezoid at the core.
And that's what we're talking about.
Right.
So going back to just simply describing
that shell criterion six isappears indifferent
to others praise, approval, or criticism,
(27:33):
not appearing to be botheredat all by what
others may think about them.
Diagnostic features stateskeezoids may be
oblivious to the subtletiesof social scripts
and often don't appropriately respond to
like social cues, which leadsothers to perceive
them as socially inept, superficialand or self-absorbed.
(27:56):
Oh my goodness.
Okay.
There's, I'm seeing a pattern here.
Firstly, like there's so much judgmentof how they come across socially.
I can also see how this isone of the criterion.
So it's unusual, right?
To experience someone who comes across as
socially indifferent or whodoesn't care about
social cues.
(28:17):
Like our normal human reaction is that,
oh, this person maybe is sociallyinferior or
in their head.
But I do think it's interesting that our
societal judgment of skeezoidsmade it into the DSM.
Yes.
So like how we respond to them is also
(28:38):
part of the diagnosis, whichmakes me think of
the training that I went to a while back
that said that the dramatravels all around
the skeezoid.
I love that.
Oh my gosh.
Kind of like a turtle in the pond.
Like there's all this stuff going around,but it's just a turtle, right?
The turtle isn't causing the drama.
(29:00):
It's all around though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm also thinking though, with this
definition in the DSM, like skeezoidsdon't really have
their own space.
Like others, our judgment comes in tothat space, even in the diagnosis.
So I'm going, no wonder they don'tcome out of their shell.
(29:21):
Right?
Like how fitting that is their fear that
others will take up all thatspace and consume them
so that they don't exist.
And we over pathologize them.
So why would they stick their heads outand show who they really are?
Exactly.
Yeah.
We've done the very thing that they areafraid of in our diagnosing.
(29:43):
I think this really goes backto the skeezoid's
ability and necessity to keepthemselves separate
from others.
So others perspectives, their opinions,
approvals, criticism, thoseare the other persons.
They are not the skeezoids.
There's no connection or enmeshment.
So there's not really much stock put intowhat other people think about them.
(30:06):
The skeezoids own self approval and criticismis what matters to the skeezoid.
Yeah.
Basically this criterion here is that
they're not going to give youthe social data and
thus that comes across as indifferent.
But in order to understandwhy we've really
have to take the time andhave the patience
(30:27):
to understand them.
Exactly.
Okay.
Number seven is that skeezoidsshow emotional
coldness, detachment, or flattenedaffectivity
looking like bland on the outside because
others don't really oftensee their emotional
reactions.
Right.
Apparently they rarely reciprocate social
gestures or facial expressionslike nods or
(30:50):
smiles.
Internally, they report rarely havingstrong emotions like anger and joy.
But if they feel comfortable,which apparently
is unusual, they might reporttheir emotional
pain, particularly pain connectedto social interactions.
Interestingly, skeezoidsmay especially have
difficulty expressing anger,even in response
(31:12):
to being directly provoked, which results
in others having that impressionthat they
lack emotion.
Okay.
All right.
Poke the turtle and it's still going tojust turtle away in its shell.
Yeah.
All right.
So what I'm hearing fromthis criterion is
that skeezoids can detach fromtheir surroundings,
(31:35):
becoming more like an objective observer
versus an active participant,which can seem like
apathy.
So this can be due to theemotional overwhelm
though, that's evoked fromthose experiences
and it could also be thatthey do feel deeply
about these things and they'rejust not expressing
(31:55):
it.
The associated features in the DSM
highlight that they underreactor passively react to
hard situations and thatthey can struggle
to respond appropriatelyto important life
events.
But then I'm like, what doesappropriately even mean?
Right.
So what I'm guessing theDSM means here is
(32:16):
like appropriately meaningas one would expect
in the social world.
So for example, maybe like birthdays,
celebrations, death, funerals,job loss, those types of
things may be met with perceived apathyor detachment on the outside.
It's the shell.
However, on the inside, skeezoids do feel
(32:39):
deeply, but again, you justaren't privy to
that information.
And because they don't engage in most
defenses, they may not alwaysfeel the same kinds of
emotions that others might feel in those
moments because they have accessto all the emotions
and thoughts.
None are excluded.
And because of all of theemotional intensity
paired with that turtleynature, there's not
(33:02):
expression of the emotions.
They can absolutely look cold or aloof or
unaffected on the outside,even though they're
probably not.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
This makes me think I thinkthis is fascinating
research on avoidant attachmentdynamics shows
that even though a persondoesn't react on
the outside, their internalbiology is elevated.
(33:26):
So they measured skin response, heart rate,blood pressure, those kinds of things.
So it's elevated even more so thananxiously attached persons.
Right, right.
So they just detach from strong emotions.
And we're not privy to those inner
thoughts and feelings unlessit's safe to come out
and share those things.
(33:46):
But I will say too, like atthe disorder level,
that shell is going to be prettyhard to crack.
Now the DSM specifically mentions thatanger and joy are often lacking.
Now my first thought is like, have you
ever seen an angry turtleor a joyful turtle?
I mean, no, but I've seenan angry bear and
(34:09):
what seems to be a joyful otter,like different
creatures, different vibes than a turtle.
Exactly.
My actual hypothesis about joy though,
specifically is that it may be experiencedas too threatening
to express or perhaps even experience becauseit's likely been taken from them.
(34:30):
Oh, I wonder if it's a case of like, don'tfeel joy or excitement so that you don't
have to feel any disappointment.
Oh, this makes me think backto attachment.
Did mom take up all the space?
Like was her joy of having aninfant non-existent?
Like in that what you're sayingright there, I'm
hearing early attachment in thisdefense mechanism.
(34:53):
Oh, absolutely.
And just the misunderstanding of who theyare and the intrusion into their space.
Remember how you said that drama happensaround the schizoid.
So it makes me think about theirbirthday, right?
Because this is a celebrationof their existence.
How many times did that one day of yearly
celebration become overtakenby maybe a more
(35:15):
expressive sibling or parent?
The schizoid doesn't reallytake up space.
Because not only does thedrama happen around
the schizoid, but the expressionhappens around
the schizoid.
Other people are doing the expressing for thembecause the schizoid's experience is
internal.
Yep.
So then my hypothesis regarding anger isthat it can elicit hostility in others.
(35:39):
And so why would a turtleprovoke a bear or
engage in like a weird fightwith a beaver?
They're going to become overwhelmed.
So I disagree that they don't necessarilyfeel that anger inside.
I think they maybe just don't react or theypush it down or they detach from it.
McWilliams makes a specific note about
violent fantasies that the schizoidcan have though.
(36:01):
Oh, how interesting.
Yes.
Okay.
So the first thing that you said makesme think that anger begets anger.
So schizoids feel anger.
Certainly we all do no matterour personality
type, but we're not goingto see a schizoid's
anger unless it's safe.
And yes, instead of acting out that anger
(36:23):
in real life, which is waytoo threatening,
fantasy is going to be a greatway to work through it.
Right?
Okay.
Going back to what you said earlier
though, about like reciprocatingfacial gestures.
I was just thinking, I wonder if this isa power play for the schizoid.
Like I'm not going to give you the satisfactionof knowing my response.
(36:46):
I'll keep it to myself.
Thank you very much.
That is an interesting thought.
It makes sense because noone can then use
their emotions against them,which does limit
the possibility of being overwhelmedby other people.
I was also thinking aboutlike appropriate
social cues and how schizoidsmight find them
silly or just not worth their energy.
(37:08):
Why would you spend energynodding back to
that person at the gas stationthat you'll
never see again when you arebusy maybe thinking
about philosophical annihilationor like trying
to solve that computer codingproblem in your head.
Oh my.
Yes.
I do.
In other words, like why would I cast myintellectual pearls before swine?
(37:30):
That's funny.
Yes.
I think so.
But anyway, okay.
Wrapping up the criteria criterion B
explicitly notes that schizoidpersonality disorder does
not include psychosis though.
It may come before schizophrenia.
Correct.
Yeah.
So schizoid personality is not the same
(37:51):
thing as schizophrenia, butat severe levels, it
can disintegrate into a completesplit with
reality, but that is not thetopic for today.
Then also criterion B mentions, we alreadysaid this, but it's not autism.
Right.
Real quick recap of that.
Autism is social hard wiringissues versus
(38:14):
schizoid social emotional circuitgets overloaded.
So it shuts down, but it's notan issue with the wiring.
So in other words, schizoids receive thesocial cues and messages just fine.
They just probably don't tell you, which
can make it hard to distinguishfrom autism.
Save that for another episode,not for today.
(38:36):
Okay.
So in some, the DSM sucksin its definition
of schizoid personality disorderbecause it
defines it by what it lacks versuswhat it actually is.
The DSM highlights a lack of desire for
attachment and incapacity for emotionsresulting in empty
indifference.
(38:56):
Yeah.
Now in contrast, the psychoanalyticline of
thinking depicts schizoidtypes as feeling
deeply, but not partaking of the social
trifling that other personalitiesdeemed normal.
They're turtles with a harddoll shell, the
other sea, but that shell isfilled with fascinating
intensity that schizoids like tosit in all by themselves.
(39:19):
I couldn't have said that better.
Yeah.
Well put, Doc Fish.
All right.
And on that note, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us today on thisepisode of the personality couch.
Make sure to check out ourblogs that coincide
with these episodes at www.personalitycouch.com.
And as always, don't forget to give us a
(39:39):
thumbs up or rate and reviewus on your favorite
podcast app.
And on YouTube, hit thatbell so you don't
miss a single episode in ourschizoid personality
series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes
(39:59):
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate resourcesin your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broadand universal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
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