September 23, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Personality Couch, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) answer your most-asked questions about schizoid personality. We address misconceptions about schizoid and settle its pronunciation debate (is it skii-zoid or skitz-oid?). We also explore the significant role (or not) of maternal relationships in schizoid’s development. Relatedly, we take a critical look at emotional expression, where we discuss the impact of gender expectations, and the nuanced understanding of fear of intrusion. We further explore power dynamics at play in schizoid behavior, their expression of anger, and how this personality navigates our highly social world.
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Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Schizoid Personality 00:50 Pronunciation of Schizoid 04:19 How The Hosts Know About Schizoid 09:54 The Role of Masking in Schizoid Personalities 13:16 Gender Differences in Schizoid Expression 14:46 Does Mom Really Matter? 16:52 Alternative Pathways to Schizoid Development 24:04 Power Dynamics, Fear, & Control in Schizoid Behavior 30:00 Anger & Emotional Expression in Schizoids 34:02 Schizoid & The Big 5 Personality (OCEAN) 35:18 Schizoids & Raisins 37:05 Conclusion & Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists inprivate practice.
And today, because we have hada lively discussion
on YouTube since the start of ourschizoid personality series,
(00:23):
we wanted to take a minute to answer
your most asked questions about schizoid.
So in this episode, we are goingto unpack schizoid's
much debated pronunciation, why we talk
about mom so much in the developmentof schizoid,
alternate pathways to itsdevelopment, anger,
and masking. We have got somethought-provoking
(00:46):
things to unpack, so let'sdive in. Okay, out of
the gate, we've got to talk abouthow do we pronounce
schizoid, and why do we seemto pronounce it maybe
differently than other people?So let's go back to
language and origins. So schizoidorigins stem from
(01:07):
German Schizophrenie, whichI'm sure I butchered,
I don't speak a lick of German here, but
essentially the German "Z" pronunciationsounds very "T"
like in English. But there'sno "T." Right, so
Schizophrenie for German. Sothe actual word for
(01:28):
schizoid was coined by Swiss psychiatrist
Bleuler from a Latinized formof the Greek "skhizein" or
"skhizein" meaning schism orto split.
Even in looking up how to pronouncethe root words,
we came across all kinds ofdifferent ways to
pronounce it depending on theGreek or the Latin
(01:50):
root, and then the German orthe French "spin" on
it. So really what we foundis that it depends on
how this word has been passed down as tohow we pronounce it. So potato, potato.
So language is powerful.It's also kind of a
made-up construct. So likeI can make up a word
(02:10):
right now if it catches on,it's going to be
acceptable. Or I could introducea different
pronunciation like "bruh"instead of "bro." It
doesn't change the meaning.Also, I think someone
doesn't change the meaning.Also, I think someone
can be very well read but nottalk to people about
a subject and so they can pronouncethings wrong.
So that's what I have to say about the
(02:31):
language part. But like anyway,so why do we say
"schizoid?" Right. I mean,it's how we were
taught. Like I don't know anydifferently. I didn't know
there was another way to pronounceit because
the different trainings thatI've had and all
throughout school, I heard "schizoid."
So "schizoid" doesn't have a T in it.Like I'm German but I'm
(02:55):
not that German. Right. Yes.And my hypothesis
is that we have adopted thistype of way of saying
"schizoid" as a field to furtherdifferentiate it
from schizophrenia, which meansthat we probably
are using the Greek stemversus other stems.
Yeah. Exactly. And I do like todifferentiate it from
(03:17):
schizophrenia because "schizoid"does not have
psychosis. But regardless,we're human. We can't
be perfect. Yeah. We know there's some
controversy around it. We've readthe Reddit and the comment
debates. And also I can neverunhear "schizoid,"
which is actually anotherway to pronounce it.
(03:39):
So like in my head, I can'tstop referring to
it as "schizoid" in my head.So if I try to say
"schizoid," it's going to comeout as "schizoid"
at some point. So I'll juststick to "schizoid."
Right. Right. We'll stickto "schizoid" and
other people can say it a littledifferently if they
(03:59):
choose to, but it's potato,potato.
Yes, so I also, I just think there'sno winning here.
Like I'm not sure that wecan make everyone
happy with the pronunciation.And also it's just an
unusual word. It's just,it's odd. Yeah. It
is. Anyway, moving on. Okay.Well, Doc Bok,
how do we know so much about schizoid ifthey hide in their shell all the time?
(04:22):
Yeah, that's a fair question. Okay. So I
discovered this personality typein clinical practice first
as I had some patients thatneeded something
more than traditional cognitivebehavioral therapy.
So they didn't seem to fit into a neat
diagnostic box either. And I noticedthat they had these
(04:44):
really complex inner worldsthat were notable.
And then I came across psychodynamicpersonality
theory, which in large partwas influenced
by a student that I hadat the time, which
they now go by Doc Fish. I don't know if
you've heard of her or not,but yes, that is you.
(05:04):
So you really helped influence my
conceptualization as well. And Ifelt like I finally had the
language to help me understand these patients'experiences. And then of course,
once I had a better understanding of this
personality type, I startedidentifying the
schizoids in my own immediate family.
Obviously I'm not a schizoid. Shocker.So I have had to
(05:28):
adjust how I communicate or how I give spaceto my more turtley family members.
And you've definitely learned a lot. I canalways tell that you understand schizoid
personalities because I amone. And I appreciate
the space and the patience thatyou always provide.
Oh, that's really sweet.
(05:50):
Yeah, I really struggled at first in gradschool because I kind of felt like
the emptiness of surface level psychology
until my third year in psychodynamicclass and like
everything finally felt right. So that in depthconceptualization just, I loved it.
I figured out that I am aschizoid personality
(06:12):
and I'm fascinated by schizoidphenomena. So I
started to dive into the research and I'm
going to continue to do thatthroughout my life.
Yeah, I think we both will.It's the lifelong
learning. Like I feel likeI'm only scratching
the surface of just the beginning of this
learning process. But the questionthat comes to mind for
me, Doc Fish, is why in the world are you
(06:34):
doing this podcast if you'rea schizoid? Like this
involves putting yourself out there andcoming out of your turtle shell.
Yeah, I don't really likeit, like coming out
of my turtle shell. But I dohave three reasons
probably why I do the podcast.So first and
(06:54):
probably biggest, it's an amazinglynerdy outlet
for my passionate pursuit ofpersonality, where I
get to talk about all the research.If I were to
talk about animals or something,we wouldn't be
doing this. Second, I wouldnever have done it by
myself. So riding on yourenergy, Doc Bok, and
your leadership, that definitelymakes it possible.
(07:16):
Yeah. And then third, I'velearned to adapt and
mask, which we'll talk aboutlater. But essentially,
my front facing appearance,like whatever this
is right now, is a muscle thatI've practiced and
practiced. It's not my wholeself. It actually
makes me think about my firstsession ever with
(07:36):
a client and how my supervisortold me.
She's like, you actually have to havefacial expression,
so you don't look icy and unempathetic.Oh, no.
And I'm really empathetic.But I don't have the
energy always to like expresson my face. So like
right before bedtime, maybemy affect is flat or
(07:59):
blunted. Yeah. Okay. Well,firstly, I'm so glad
that we get to do this podcasttogether because our
energies fit, even if they'reopposite. And
it's so interesting that youmentioned adapting or
masking, and then learningto emote or to adjust
your facial expressions. Becauseas a psychologist,
(08:21):
that's an important part ofthe job. Like you
have to come across as empathetic.But I can also
imagine as the day wears on, or if you're
hungry, it's harder to keep thatmuscle activated. It
definitely gets tiring andrequires energy.
Yeah, you want to hear somethinginteresting. So
oppositely to you, I actuallywas told by a
(08:42):
supervisor that I was too emotive.This specifically
was when I was working inpatient,arguably
where I was treating schizophrenicpatients.
And I ended up talking toa close friend who I
now believe might be a schizoidpersonality herself.
But we talked about like adjustingthe blinds on
my sunshine. And I've workedhard on that. Yeah.
(09:04):
But sometimes the sun stillblares in your
face. Oh, I mean, I get thatthe opposite way. Like
sometimes my expression isflat. Someone asks if
I'm okay, because I'm not reacting.And I'm like,
Oh, yeah, gotta move that face. That's
hilarious. Yes. But I do love thatblind metaphor. So for
(09:28):
schizoids, things can be so extremely
bright. So like actual lightsound touch movement,
definitely others' emotions.It's, it's a turtle-y
dynamic. Yeah, just adjust theblinds. Adjust the
blinds. And then just like youadjust your blinds
to be less bright. I think schizoidscan learn to
(09:51):
open their blinds to be more bright. So
essentially, we're back to masking.Yes, that is really
powerful. And I think there'sa lot of reasons
why a schizoid will mask or tryto blend in with the
social world. Like maybe theirjob depends on
it. And they're a therapist,as we've talked about
before, many schizoids do end up becoming
therapists just like Doc Fish.So maybe they can
(10:15):
blend in better if they emote more or put
themselves out there morethan is comfortable,
because it actually drawsless attention to
them. Exactly. Which kind ofcombines with gender
differences too in schizoid. So I think
females probably exercise thatexpression muscle more
(10:35):
because we're socialized toand we're culturally
pushed to. So any flat affectin a female is more
noticeable. So think like restingbitch face versus
a male's flat affect is probablyjust going to be
stoic. Of course, we had tobring in RBF. Yes.
stoic. Of course, we had tobring in RBF. Yes.
Yeah. But socially, we havedifferent expectations
(10:58):
and ascribe different meaningsdepending on
gender. And I think the sameis true with many
attributes like assertiveness,for example, which
is viewed typically as a morepositive male trait,
but an assertive female mightbe called sassy or
overbearing. Or even aggressive.Yeah. Yeah.
So just like one viewer commented, I can
(11:20):
it on the inside, but it takesenergy to do that
on the outside. And I don'tcare to utilize it.
So I'm capable of expression.I just don't want
to. So I use buffers like dogsand kids in social
settings, totally avoid eyecontact in public.
But when I have to engage,I use that expression
(11:42):
muscle and I'm capable ofacting in accordance
with social norms. Yes. Thismakes so much sense.
And if I'm recalling correctly, you havealso pretended that you're deaf,
so you don't have to engage.Is that right?
There is some context there. Yes.Definitely context,
but I that has happened. Yes.Yes. I thought so.
(12:05):
So there are schizoids who arecapable of engaging
in presentations, leadingmeetings, being in a
leadership role, owning a business,doing a podcast.
Mm hmm. But really, the social part often
involves masking and sometimeseven dissociation.
It's exhausting. Yeah. So even for healthier schizoids,
(12:29):
if you're doing these things,you may find
that you need time afterhours to zone out,
do nothing, engage in fantasyor video games,
maybe reading, audio books,like some type of
detachment, not necessarilydistraction, but detachment.
Also for the schizoid parents out there,
building that expressionmuscle and
(12:51):
handling the intrusion of childrenis draining to the like
infinity-ith degree. So keepup the good work.
For reals. Yeah. But schizoids canalso make wonderful parents.
So even though the flat affect isprotective, like previously mentioned,
(13:12):
it's interpreted differentlyfor different
people. So there was a questionabout possibly
having more misdiagnosed schizoid females.
Yes, that's so interesting.And I think similar to
autism, like it can get missedbecause of the
strong social expectationswe put on females
in Western culture, likewe can put a lot of
(13:32):
energy into presenting a certainway as females
just to survive, like to beable to interview
well for a job to be hireableto build connections
with others in our communitiesso we can share
resources like the list goeson and on, right?
Because society is much kinderto females who
are highly sociable. And I thinkit was McWilliams
(13:55):
that highlighted women usuallyget diagnosed
with disorders that are characterizedby too
much attachment. So like depressive,dependent
masochistic, while men usuallyget diagnosed with
disorders characterized bya lack of attachment.
So schizoid, antisocial, sadistic.Yes. Okay,
this is really, really fascinating.
(14:17):
I remember you also telling methat male borderline
personalities are also misdiagnosed as
antisocial because of the aggression.So we often miss the
mark because of gender stereotypesand then
social reinforcements of thosestereotypes. And we do
this even in our diagnosing.Even talking about
socializing is exhausting.So let's stop that.
(14:42):
Let's talk about mom. Okay.So why do we talk
about mom so much? It's kindof weird, right?
Yes, yes, it is weird. And honestly, an
overemphasis on mom is one of themajor critiques of
psychoanalytic and then psychodynamictheory. And I get
it. Honestly, I am not crazyabout blaming women
(15:03):
for all of our collectivepsych issues. And
that's now what we're talkingabout here either.
So men have had just asmuch to contribute
to pathology, believe me,but historically,
the mother has often been the primary
caregiver, arguably because ofpatriarchal societies. But
mom can really represent anyone who has
(15:26):
significance to the child becausethat early attachment is so
important. And because it maps out later
attachment in adult relationships.And remember that early
psychs were able to figureout that schizoids
were detached from the Freudiansexual and aggressive
drives. So they didn't actuallyfit in until
(15:48):
object relations or attachmentbased understanding
helped us figure out schizoidphenomena. Remember
schizoid dynamics are about movingaway from others.
Right. Yes. So attachment basedtheory is a big
part of the original schizoidconceptualization,
especially with that tendencyto move away from
(16:08):
other people. We also had oneviewer who pointed
out that in the vibrant schizoid fantasies,
the attachment figure or mother is replaced by fantasy.
And we actually put a poll on the YouTube
channel page about that. Andthe results are really
interesting. So while that'sactive, check that
(16:29):
out on the channel page.
Another viewer highlighted that Fairburn's
conceptualization where earlyattachment is not formed
externally. And that detachmentto others leads to
like the withdrawal into theself, then internally
fantasizing attachment, which is then
protected adamantly. So it's notdestroyed. Yeah, guard
(16:50):
the mind castle. Hold on, though,Doc Fish. I know
schizoids who reportedly havenot been traumatized
by their mother or caregivers. And as
several viewers pointed out,like my mom's great,
parents are good. Childhoodwas fine. So
does schizoid development have to involve
(17:12):
childhood trauma or any trauma?
And is there a pathway to schizoidthat is perhaps
less focused on that fear of intrusion ora conflict based approach?
Okay, so I think what you're askinghere includes,
is there an alternative pathwayto schizoid
development? Yeah, one thatdoesn't include the
(17:35):
trauma of intrusion or neglect.Okay, so first
we have genetics. So schizoidphenomena are more
likely to be present in families with
schizophrenia, schizotypal, this setsthe stage for an infant
to have like a sensitive temperament.
Sensitivity could be emotional,but I'm also hypothesizing
(17:56):
that there's sensory sensitivity as well.
Because remember, like lightsare too bright,
sound too much, touch toointrusive for the
infant. Some infants have intrusiveor neglectful
attachments. But I think ata less severe level,
there can be parent child temperamentmismatches
too. So like, mom could beabsolutely amazing.
(18:18):
Also, her love language islike helping hugging
loving by moving towardsher child while the
child has the innate needsfor some separation.
So it's not even like a badthing, just like a
mismatch. And also, I thinkmom and child can
learn to adapt better, betterconnect. So like, it
doesn't actually become traumatic.Right. This is
(18:40):
a great point, actually, because that
temperament mismatch can also complicateor contribute to
schizoid development. However,an attentive
parent can also learn andadjust to meet the
child's needs. It doesn'thave to be like the
severely neglectful or abusiveend of the spectrum.
(19:02):
It could just be maybe somepersonality friction
due to that mismatch. Yeah,yeah. But you're also
saying that there's often somethinggenetic on the
schiz or schizoid front thatleads to development.
It's not just the environment,right? But as with
most psychological things,the environment plays
(19:25):
a part in bringing it to fruition. And I
think there's also like a correspondingattachment
dynamic that can happen where schizoid
children parallel schizoid parents,which genetically
makes sense, right? So you have similar
genetics, temperaments, similarattachment dynamics,
and then they end up parallelingeach other and
(19:47):
mirroring. Hmm, this is interesting.So I would
actually be interested in hearing if our
listeners or viewers believe theyare schizoid and had a
schizoid parent. And if solet us know in the
comments. Interested. Yeah,I'm also curious if
anyone had an antisocial parent.So not asocial
antisocial, meaning like breakingsocial norms,
(20:10):
rules, sensory seeking, thrillseeking, having a
powerful presence, becausethey take up a lot of
space. Ooh, that's intriguing,too. Yeah, the
antisocial piece, like yousaid, not asocial,
not like back socially backwards,but antisocial
moving against social normsand rules. But yeah,
(20:30):
I'll actually create some pollsfor that on the
YouTube channel. So cast yourvote or comment and
let us know. Yay data!Yes, this is cool. So
the other thing that I thinkis worth mentioning
is that not all schizoid personalitiesare at
disorder level. Like youcan have a schizoid
personality without it beingdiagnostic. It's
(20:51):
just your style. But the moresevere the trauma
or neglect, the higher thelikelihood of schizoid personality disorder
or pathological withdrawal and detachment.
Yes, there's severity levels.
So the more trauma, which includesa build up of
small relational traumas, the more likely
(21:11):
personality dysfunction issevere. Yes, I like
what you said there, evena small build up of
like, like little relationaltraumas, kind of like
death by 1000 paper cuts typeof thing. But so
the limited research thatwe do have is often
more focused on like the severe and
dysfunctional end of schizoid, notyour everyday schizoid
(21:33):
structure. So childhood traumamay or may not
apply to your story as a schizoid. And speaking
of stories, we had multipleviewers comment on
how they don't react to others.And they highlighted
dynamics of power, protection,control and
freedom in contrast to beingfearful of others.
(21:56):
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so first,let's clarify that
our reference to schizoids' fear
is not because schizoids view theworld as hostile and threatening.
That's the paranoid's fear.And it's not the fear
that others will humiliate orreject me, which is
more of like an avoidant personality'sfear. And
(22:16):
of course, it's not the fearof abandonment,
like in borderline personality,it's the fear of
intrusion. So a better wayto say it is that the
world is just too much. Peopleare just too much,
like there's too much stimulationin the world,
which can also come acrossas apathy or just I
(22:37):
don't want to, it's too mucheffort. It's just
too much. Yes, I'm so glad thatthis was brought up.
I don't necessarily think thatthe fear we speak
of feels like consciously scary,maybe anxiety,
but not like an activatinganxiety. Yeah, okay.
Like, I must back up to avoidthe possibility of
(22:57):
overwhelm. So an example,let's do an example.
I went to the playground,and my kiddo engaged
in social interaction withanother mother and
child. I wasn't scared that themother would reject
me, humiliate me, hurt me,think badly of me.
I just wanted to like slowlyback away and not
engage, like recoil, withdraw,avoid. It
(23:19):
feels more like a passive anxietythan like a scary
activating fear, right? Somy heart rate didn't
go up. I didn't sweat or haveracing thoughts. It's
more of like a freeze responseof like, oh crap,
I want to retreat. Right. Okay,this this passive
anxiety, as you were talking,I was actually
(23:41):
thinking about the Bart Simpsongif, where he's
just like backing away intothe bushes. Like, do
you know which one I mean?I do. That's possibly
one of my most common utilizedones and the cat
that dives into the couch. Yeah,that is so funny.
I'm not surprised. Goodness.All right. So
(24:03):
basically, schizoids aren'tnecessarily walking
around actively fearful of the world. So
understanding that we can discusshow withdrawal,
avoidance and not reactingto others could
have those dynamics of power,protection, control
and freedom. Okay, so in regardto schizoids,
(24:26):
sensitive, I think is a multifacetedword here.
I think schizoids are likeso strong. They have
a backbone, sometimes indifference,but still,
they don't get pulled intoinauthenticity or
fakeness. Yeah, I totallyagree. And there's
power in that. So what ifwe think of like
sensitive like the sensitivityof a metal detector,
(24:47):
like an awareness of all the nuances. So
now emotional sensitivity,on the other hand,
could be influenced by differentflavors and
severities of the schizoidpersonality, maybe
even gender. Yeah, I cansee that. Yeah. And
then keeping with the metaldetector analogy,
like though sensitive, theycan be tuned to
(25:07):
have like more or less sensitivity,right?
So with all things personality, there's a
spectrum of how attuned thatsensitivity is.
So then not expressing emotions,not reacting,
etc, may develop over timeto protect the self,
but maybe not as a child.So one viewer wrote
(25:31):
about how withdrawal mightbe the only defense
actually worked in childhoodthat originally a
child may have attempted to stickup for themselves,
fight back, take up space, but they were metwith an array of negative reactions,
ranging from others pushingback against them to
actual abuse. Yes. And I thinkhow in childhood,
(25:56):
the personality is still developing. It's
not necessarily set in stonebecause it's still
malleable. So for some kiddos,they may even have
been pretty social in childhooduntil the social
world turned on them andthey learned it was
safer to withdraw. And of course,there's many,
(26:16):
many nuances to how this could look. But
again, that sensitivity tothe social world
can have different pathways to schizoid
development. Yeah. And I think healthierschizoid children
probably tried to engage with others and
stand their ground, but thesensitivity to others'
negative inauthentic reactionsperhaps made them
realize, well, maybe unconsciouslythat it's just
(26:39):
best to stay quiet. Like don'tengage, dissociate
even if it's severe enough.There is a protective
power in controlling what otherscan see and use
against you. This. So if thingsaren't weaponized
against you, you have morefreedom to act, to
(26:59):
not have to worry about moreanger, more intrusion,
more walking on eggshells.Exactly. Uh-huh. And
then another viewer wrote todeal with stupid or
crazy all around you. The onlyway to win is to
not play. I love that. I lovethat too. And it speaks
(27:19):
to how the drama goes aroundthe schizoid.
They don't engage. And thento your point about
withdrawal as the main defensethat works,
I agree. Like in the exampleyou gave about
learning to hoard data soothers don't use it
against you, that's a powerplay. The schizoid
withdrawal is like the aceup the sleeve when
(27:41):
the social world does the dramadance around them.
The social world doesn't knowwhat to do with that.
And then they eventually leavethe schizoid alone,
which is what they want. Yes.So this actually
brings up another hypothesisof mine that schizoids
could maybe have some antisocialvibes going
against society and conformity.So that's like
(28:01):
social expectations arestupid. People are
fake, inauthentic, dramatic,surface level. So like
communication with people, it's useless,
unnecessary, it's boring. So ifa schizoid does engage in
communication and spend theenergy with another
person, it's quite likely theywill get frustrated
and exhaust quickly. Now,eventually, I think
(28:23):
it's very likely that a schizoidpersonality has just
simply learned to give up on social
engagement, because it's not safe.And there's nothing
positive to gain from it. Yes.Okay, this actually
reminds me of the Enneagram,which is very different
personality typology that's not meant to
capture disorder levels, but moreso like how we move
(28:45):
against or towards core drivesand fears. So the
Enneagram five, the observeroverlaps a lot with
schizoid personalities. Typefive goes to type
eight in growth. The type eightis the alpha power
control type. So here we seethemes of power and
control among both types asthey go against the
(29:08):
grain, but in different ways. So the five
passively withdraws from the socialworld in stubborn
protest and protection.And then the eight
actively moves against the socialworld or social norms.
So they're both themes ofpower and control.
But they're not overt in theschizoid like they're
(29:30):
inside. Right. And that fiveobserver has a
growth pathway towards being intouch with their anger
in an eight space. And Ithink this path may
be where a schizoid might startfinding power and
getting other people to actfirst. Yes. And
again, different personality typology,but I think it's
(29:51):
helpful scaffolding in understanding the
power plays of the schizoidthat are often subtle,
but there. Yeah. And thenof course, this is a
great segue to the experienceof anger for the
schizoids as multiple viewersnoted that they
can feel anger, express it,and sometimes even
have angry tantrums. The more severe the
(30:13):
pathology, it's probably likely thata schizoid personality
is more detached from theiranger. I do think the
more healthy a schizoid is themore they may be in
touch with their anger insteadof detaching
from it. I agree with that.Yeah. Getting in touch
with the anger seems likean important growth
point for them. And I alsothink of expressions
(30:34):
of anger in a schizoid that can look verydifferent, like depending on the person,
maybe the day, who they're around the
subject, how well they've researchedthe subject,
like lots of things. Yeah,sure. So for example,
some days you might consciouslydetach from anger.
Some days my expression of angeris like robotic.
(30:55):
It's like, I'm angry, anger,like I'm just naming
it. I don't know. Sometimes I become
passionate, energetic, and moreintense about a subject
because I'm fueled by anger. Rarely, but
possible, explosions of angerdo occur. So for myself,
if a child is involved, mamabear comes out
(31:15):
fueled by righteous anger and protection.I'm using
Enneagram language again, like thateight space. Yeah.
But I have individual variablesthat have affected
my attachment to my own anger. I'm also
surrounded by Enneagram eights. So it'spossible that I'm more
in touch with anger as wellbecause of that. But
(31:37):
I actually didn't connect withmy anger until my
freshman year of college. This is really
interesting. Yeah. Having a householdof more angry types might
also contribute to how intouch a schizoid is
with their anger. But I haveto ask what happened
freshman year that made youmore in touch with
your anger, Doc Fish? Oh, Ihad a roommate that
(31:58):
was super, super intrusive,like self-focused and
boundary crossing. And I hadto get angry to protect
myself, but it built up formonths and I'm not
even sure I addressed it outsideof therapy. But that
was the last year I had aroommate in college.
Oh, wow. Okay. This is interesting.So you got in
(32:20):
touch with your anger internally.You didn't
explode at your roommate,but you withdrew and
later moved off campus soyou could keep your
turtle shell to yourself. Yes,it's hard to live
with people. Yeah. I think mosttemperaments would
say that, but the schiz in particular.Absolutely.
Yeah. Okay. So thinking backto your example
(32:41):
with the roommate, like let'ssay that was a family
member, but you can't get awayand that person is
horribly intrusive. Like thisis where prolonged
trauma can elicit angry reactionslike an angry
turtle biting an intrusivehand in their shell.
Right. Yeah. So then PTSD alsocan make a schizoid
(33:05):
more in touch with their anger.Like when there's
so much trauma, their shellis essentially
beat up. And the only way tosurvive is to express
anger. Like don't touch, goaway. I can't take one
more trauma and still be alive.It's a protective
anger. Yeah. And also I thinkschizoids can
(33:26):
definitely be in touch withtheir anger through
their internal fantasy. Sosometimes having
violent and perverse fantasies,but they won't act on it.
Right. Yes. So literature tellsus this about the
schizoid and I have also heardbits and pieces of
this from my schizoid familymembers. Like they
tap into that anger up herethat they're not going
(33:48):
to act on. I mean, I havesome, but they're
not appropriate to share.So we'll move on.
Doc Fish's angry fantasies.Oh my goodness.
Okay. So one more quick answerto a question
about schizoid and the bigfive personality
traits. So I scanned the researchand found that
(34:11):
overall schizoid was associated with low
extraversion and low openness.Some studies also had
them associated with loweragreeableness and
higher conscientiousness. Iwould be careful of
all of this because of samplesize. And then
also notably schizotypal wereassociated with more
(34:32):
extraversion and higher openness.This is really
interesting. Okay. Almost likethe boundaries are
too fluid in the schizotypal,which is why
they're on the cusp of realitybecause they're too open.
Yeah. And then it makes sensethat schizoids
would typically be introvertedand less concerned with
what others think or justgoing along with the
(34:55):
social herd, but they do appreciaterules and
structure typically kind oftapping into that
conscientiousness. But again,this can really
vary from person to person.And honestly, I would
say introversion is probablythe most consistently
correlated and then everythingelse depends on
the person. I would agree. Ithink maybe we could
(35:18):
address another question thatI proposed about
raisins because we didn'ttalk about raisins.
Oh, tell me. In Nancy McWilliams paper on
thoughts on schizoid, she has alittle paragraph in there
about how she knows a coupleof schizoids who
don't like raisins. And it gotme thinking because I
hate raisins and I was like,why? I don't like
(35:41):
raisins because they're intrusive,right? Like
if I'm eating a cookie that'ssupposed to have
chocolate chips in it, it shouldn'thave raisins.
That's intrusive. It doesn'tbelong there.
I've heard some different storiesfrom different
people, but that's why I wasso interested in
if y'all like raisins. Oh,that is so great. I'm
(36:03):
glad that you brought thatback around. Yeah,
yeah. Because a few of the schizoidsin my life also
really don't like raisins becausethey are kind
of imposters, if you will. Likeit looks like it's
a chocolate chip, but it'sa raisin in bread
or in cookies. Like that'sjust cruel. Right?
And the intrusion of the flavorand the texture,
(36:27):
even though grapes are okay,maybe wine's okay,
but raisins, multiple schizoidsI've talked to
don't like raisins. But thenagain, looking at
the poll, it's kind of a mixedbag. I think right
now the consensus is like, meh,middle of the road
could take it or leave it.But some people have
strong opinions of, yeah, they'regreat. And some
(36:49):
people are like, nah, getthem away from me.
So it's just interesting. It'sjust interesting.
So not liking raisins isnot a criteria for
schizoid, but it is interesting.So thank you.
It is. It is interesting.Yes. Good, good. All
right. Well, hopefully we haveanswered some of
your questions about the pronunciationof schizoid
(37:09):
versus schizoid. And also whywe talk about mom so
much in this series and reallyin this podcast in general.
So on thatnote, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of
the personality couch. Makesure to check out our
blogs that coincide withthese episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com.And as always,
(37:31):
don't forget to give us athumbs up or rate
and review us on your favoritepodcast app
and on YouTube, hit that bell.So you don't miss a
single episode of our schizoidpersonality series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes only
(37:53):
and does not constitutea professional relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate resourcesin your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broadand universal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists inprivate practice.
And today, because we have hada lively discussion
on YouTube since the start of ourschizoid personality series,
(00:23):
we wanted to take a minute to answer
your most asked questions about schizoid.
So in this episode, we are goingto unpack schizoid's
much debated pronunciation, why we talk
about mom so much in the developmentof schizoid,
alternate pathways to itsdevelopment, anger,
and masking. We have got somethought-provoking
(00:46):
things to unpack, so let'sdive in. Okay, out of
the gate, we've got to talk abouthow do we pronounce
schizoid, and why do we seemto pronounce it maybe
differently than other people?So let's go back to
language and origins. So schizoidorigins stem from
(01:07):
German Schizophrenie, whichI'm sure I butchered,
I don't speak a lick of German here, but
essentially the German "Z" pronunciationsounds very "T"
like in English. But there'sno "T." Right, so
Schizophrenie for German. Sothe actual word for
(01:28):
schizoid was coined by Swiss psychiatrist
Bleuler from a Latinized formof the Greek "skhizein" or
"skhizein" meaning schism orto split.
Even in looking up how to pronouncethe root words,
we came across all kinds ofdifferent ways to
pronounce it depending on theGreek or the Latin
(01:50):
root, and then the German orthe French "spin" on
it. So really what we foundis that it depends on
how this word has been passed down as tohow we pronounce it. So potato, potato.
So language is powerful.It's also kind of a
made-up construct. So likeI can make up a word
(02:10):
right now if it catches on,it's going to be
acceptable. Or I could introducea different
pronunciation like "bruh"instead of "bro." It
doesn't change the meaning.Also, I think someone
doesn't change the meaning.Also, I think someone
can be very well read but nottalk to people about
a subject and so they can pronouncethings wrong.
So that's what I have to say about the
(02:31):
language part. But like anyway,so why do we say
"schizoid?" Right. I mean,it's how we were
taught. Like I don't know anydifferently. I didn't know
there was another way to pronounceit because
the different trainings thatI've had and all
throughout school, I heard "schizoid."
So "schizoid" doesn't have a T in it.Like I'm German but I'm
(02:55):
not that German. Right. Yes.And my hypothesis
is that we have adopted thistype of way of saying
"schizoid" as a field to furtherdifferentiate it
from schizophrenia, which meansthat we probably
are using the Greek stemversus other stems.
Yeah. Exactly. And I do like todifferentiate it from
(03:17):
schizophrenia because "schizoid"does not have
psychosis. But regardless,we're human. We can't
be perfect. Yeah. We know there's some
controversy around it. We've readthe Reddit and the comment
debates. And also I can neverunhear "schizoid,"
which is actually anotherway to pronounce it.
(03:39):
So like in my head, I can'tstop referring to
it as "schizoid" in my head.So if I try to say
"schizoid," it's going to comeout as "schizoid"
at some point. So I'll juststick to "schizoid."
Right. Right. We'll stickto "schizoid" and
other people can say it a littledifferently if they
(03:59):
choose to, but it's potato,potato.
Yes, so I also, I just think there'sno winning here.
Like I'm not sure that wecan make everyone
happy with the pronunciation.And also it's just an
unusual word. It's just,it's odd. Yeah. It
is. Anyway, moving on. Okay.Well, Doc Bok,
how do we know so much about schizoid ifthey hide in their shell all the time?
(04:22):
Yeah, that's a fair question. Okay. So I
discovered this personality typein clinical practice first
as I had some patients thatneeded something
more than traditional cognitivebehavioral therapy.
So they didn't seem to fit into a neat
diagnostic box either. And I noticedthat they had these
(04:44):
really complex inner worldsthat were notable.
And then I came across psychodynamicpersonality
theory, which in large partwas influenced
by a student that I hadat the time, which
they now go by Doc Fish. I don't know if
you've heard of her or not,but yes, that is you.
(05:04):
So you really helped influence my
conceptualization as well. And Ifelt like I finally had the
language to help me understand these patients'experiences. And then of course,
once I had a better understanding of this
personality type, I startedidentifying the
schizoids in my own immediate family.
Obviously I'm not a schizoid. Shocker.So I have had to
(05:28):
adjust how I communicate or how I give spaceto my more turtley family members.
And you've definitely learned a lot. I canalways tell that you understand schizoid
personalities because I amone. And I appreciate
the space and the patience thatyou always provide.
Oh, that's really sweet.
(05:50):
Yeah, I really struggled at first in gradschool because I kind of felt like
the emptiness of surface level psychology
until my third year in psychodynamicclass and like
everything finally felt right. So that in depthconceptualization just, I loved it.
I figured out that I am aschizoid personality
(06:12):
and I'm fascinated by schizoidphenomena. So I
started to dive into the research and I'm
going to continue to do thatthroughout my life.
Yeah, I think we both will.It's the lifelong
learning. Like I feel likeI'm only scratching
the surface of just the beginning of this
learning process. But the questionthat comes to mind for
me, Doc Fish, is why in the world are you
(06:34):
doing this podcast if you'rea schizoid? Like this
involves putting yourself out there andcoming out of your turtle shell.
Yeah, I don't really likeit, like coming out
of my turtle shell. But I dohave three reasons
probably why I do the podcast.So first and
(06:54):
probably biggest, it's an amazinglynerdy outlet
for my passionate pursuit ofpersonality, where I
get to talk about all the research.If I were to
talk about animals or something,we wouldn't be
doing this. Second, I wouldnever have done it by
myself. So riding on yourenergy, Doc Bok, and
your leadership, that definitelymakes it possible.
(07:16):
Yeah. And then third, I'velearned to adapt and
mask, which we'll talk aboutlater. But essentially,
my front facing appearance,like whatever this
is right now, is a muscle thatI've practiced and
practiced. It's not my wholeself. It actually
makes me think about my firstsession ever with
(07:36):
a client and how my supervisortold me.
She's like, you actually have to havefacial expression,
so you don't look icy and unempathetic.Oh, no.
And I'm really empathetic.But I don't have the
energy always to like expresson my face. So like
right before bedtime, maybemy affect is flat or
(07:59):
blunted. Yeah. Okay. Well,firstly, I'm so glad
that we get to do this podcasttogether because our
energies fit, even if they'reopposite. And
it's so interesting that youmentioned adapting or
masking, and then learningto emote or to adjust
your facial expressions. Becauseas a psychologist,
(08:21):
that's an important part ofthe job. Like you
have to come across as empathetic.But I can also
imagine as the day wears on, or if you're
hungry, it's harder to keep thatmuscle activated. It
definitely gets tiring andrequires energy.
Yeah, you want to hear somethinginteresting. So
oppositely to you, I actuallywas told by a
(08:42):
supervisor that I was too emotive.This specifically
was when I was working inpatient,arguably
where I was treating schizophrenicpatients.
And I ended up talking toa close friend who I
now believe might be a schizoidpersonality herself.
But we talked about like adjustingthe blinds on
my sunshine. And I've workedhard on that. Yeah.
(09:04):
But sometimes the sun stillblares in your
face. Oh, I mean, I get thatthe opposite way. Like
sometimes my expression isflat. Someone asks if
I'm okay, because I'm not reacting.And I'm like,
Oh, yeah, gotta move that face. That's
hilarious. Yes. But I do love thatblind metaphor. So for
(09:28):
schizoids, things can be so extremely
bright. So like actual lightsound touch movement,
definitely others' emotions.It's, it's a turtle-y
dynamic. Yeah, just adjust theblinds. Adjust the
blinds. And then just like youadjust your blinds
to be less bright. I think schizoidscan learn to
(09:51):
open their blinds to be more bright. So
essentially, we're back to masking.Yes, that is really
powerful. And I think there'sa lot of reasons
why a schizoid will mask or tryto blend in with the
social world. Like maybe theirjob depends on
it. And they're a therapist,as we've talked about
before, many schizoids do end up becoming
therapists just like Doc Fish.So maybe they can
(10:15):
blend in better if they emote more or put
themselves out there morethan is comfortable,
because it actually drawsless attention to
them. Exactly. Which kind ofcombines with gender
differences too in schizoid. So I think
females probably exercise thatexpression muscle more
(10:35):
because we're socialized toand we're culturally
pushed to. So any flat affectin a female is more
noticeable. So think like restingbitch face versus
a male's flat affect is probablyjust going to be
stoic. Of course, we had tobring in RBF. Yes.
stoic. Of course, we had tobring in RBF. Yes.
Yeah. But socially, we havedifferent expectations
(10:58):
and ascribe different meaningsdepending on
gender. And I think the sameis true with many
attributes like assertiveness,for example, which
is viewed typically as a morepositive male trait,
but an assertive female mightbe called sassy or
overbearing. Or even aggressive.Yeah. Yeah.
So just like one viewer commented, I can
(11:20):
it on the inside, but it takesenergy to do that
on the outside. And I don'tcare to utilize it.
So I'm capable of expression.I just don't want
to. So I use buffers like dogsand kids in social
settings, totally avoid eyecontact in public.
But when I have to engage,I use that expression
(11:42):
muscle and I'm capable ofacting in accordance
with social norms. Yes. Thismakes so much sense.
And if I'm recalling correctly, you havealso pretended that you're deaf,
so you don't have to engage.Is that right?
There is some context there. Yes.Definitely context,
but I that has happened. Yes.Yes. I thought so.
(12:05):
So there are schizoids who arecapable of engaging
in presentations, leadingmeetings, being in a
leadership role, owning a business,doing a podcast.
Mm hmm. But really, the social part often
involves masking and sometimeseven dissociation.
It's exhausting. Yeah. So even for healthier schizoids,
(12:29):
if you're doing these things,you may find
that you need time afterhours to zone out,
do nothing, engage in fantasyor video games,
maybe reading, audio books,like some type of
detachment, not necessarilydistraction, but detachment.
Also for the schizoid parents out there,
building that expressionmuscle and
(12:51):
handling the intrusion of childrenis draining to the like
infinity-ith degree. So keepup the good work.
For reals. Yeah. But schizoids canalso make wonderful parents.
So even though the flat affect isprotective, like previously mentioned,
(13:12):
it's interpreted differentlyfor different
people. So there was a questionabout possibly
having more misdiagnosed schizoid females.
Yes, that's so interesting.And I think similar to
autism, like it can get missedbecause of the
strong social expectationswe put on females
in Western culture, likewe can put a lot of
(13:32):
energy into presenting a certainway as females
just to survive, like to beable to interview
well for a job to be hireableto build connections
with others in our communitiesso we can share
resources like the list goeson and on, right?
Because society is much kinderto females who
are highly sociable. And I thinkit was McWilliams
(13:55):
that highlighted women usuallyget diagnosed
with disorders that are characterizedby too
much attachment. So like depressive,dependent
masochistic, while men usuallyget diagnosed with
disorders characterized bya lack of attachment.
So schizoid, antisocial, sadistic.Yes. Okay,
this is really, really fascinating.
(14:17):
I remember you also telling methat male borderline
personalities are also misdiagnosed as
antisocial because of the aggression.So we often miss the
mark because of gender stereotypesand then
social reinforcements of thosestereotypes. And we do
this even in our diagnosing.Even talking about
socializing is exhausting.So let's stop that.
(14:42):
Let's talk about mom. Okay.So why do we talk
about mom so much? It's kindof weird, right?
Yes, yes, it is weird. And honestly, an
overemphasis on mom is one of themajor critiques of
psychoanalytic and then psychodynamictheory. And I get
it. Honestly, I am not crazyabout blaming women
(15:03):
for all of our collectivepsych issues. And
that's now what we're talkingabout here either.
So men have had just asmuch to contribute
to pathology, believe me,but historically,
the mother has often been the primary
caregiver, arguably because ofpatriarchal societies. But
mom can really represent anyone who has
(15:26):
significance to the child becausethat early attachment is so
important. And because it maps out later
attachment in adult relationships.And remember that early
psychs were able to figureout that schizoids
were detached from the Freudiansexual and aggressive
drives. So they didn't actuallyfit in until
(15:48):
object relations or attachmentbased understanding
helped us figure out schizoidphenomena. Remember
schizoid dynamics are about movingaway from others.
Right. Yes. So attachment basedtheory is a big
part of the original schizoidconceptualization,
especially with that tendencyto move away from
(16:08):
other people. We also had oneviewer who pointed
out that in the vibrant schizoid fantasies,
the attachment figure or mother is replaced by fantasy.
And we actually put a poll on the YouTube
channel page about that. Andthe results are really
interesting. So while that'sactive, check that
(16:29):
out on the channel page.
Another viewer highlighted that Fairburn's
conceptualization where earlyattachment is not formed
externally. And that detachmentto others leads to
like the withdrawal into theself, then internally
fantasizing attachment, which is then
protected adamantly. So it's notdestroyed. Yeah, guard
(16:50):
the mind castle. Hold on, though,Doc Fish. I know
schizoids who reportedly havenot been traumatized
by their mother or caregivers. And as
several viewers pointed out,like my mom's great,
parents are good. Childhoodwas fine. So
does schizoid development have to involve
(17:12):
childhood trauma or any trauma?
And is there a pathway to schizoidthat is perhaps
less focused on that fear of intrusion ora conflict based approach?
Okay, so I think what you're askinghere includes,
is there an alternative pathwayto schizoid
development? Yeah, one thatdoesn't include the
(17:35):
trauma of intrusion or neglect.Okay, so first
we have genetics. So schizoidphenomena are more
likely to be present in families with
schizophrenia, schizotypal, this setsthe stage for an infant
to have like a sensitive temperament.
Sensitivity could be emotional,but I'm also hypothesizing
(17:56):
that there's sensory sensitivity as well.
Because remember, like lightsare too bright,
sound too much, touch toointrusive for the
infant. Some infants have intrusiveor neglectful
attachments. But I think ata less severe level,
there can be parent child temperamentmismatches
too. So like, mom could beabsolutely amazing.
(18:18):
Also, her love language islike helping hugging
loving by moving towardsher child while the
child has the innate needsfor some separation.
So it's not even like a badthing, just like a
mismatch. And also, I thinkmom and child can
learn to adapt better, betterconnect. So like, it
doesn't actually become traumatic.Right. This is
(18:40):
a great point, actually, because that
temperament mismatch can also complicateor contribute to
schizoid development. However,an attentive
parent can also learn andadjust to meet the
child's needs. It doesn'thave to be like the
severely neglectful or abusiveend of the spectrum.
(19:02):
It could just be maybe somepersonality friction
due to that mismatch. Yeah,yeah. But you're also
saying that there's often somethinggenetic on the
schiz or schizoid front thatleads to development.
It's not just the environment,right? But as with
most psychological things,the environment plays
(19:25):
a part in bringing it to fruition. And I
think there's also like a correspondingattachment
dynamic that can happen where schizoid
children parallel schizoid parents,which genetically
makes sense, right? So you have similar
genetics, temperaments, similarattachment dynamics,
and then they end up parallelingeach other and
(19:47):
mirroring. Hmm, this is interesting.So I would
actually be interested in hearing if our
listeners or viewers believe theyare schizoid and had a
schizoid parent. And if solet us know in the
comments. Interested. Yeah,I'm also curious if
anyone had an antisocial parent.So not asocial
antisocial, meaning like breakingsocial norms,
(20:10):
rules, sensory seeking, thrillseeking, having a
powerful presence, becausethey take up a lot of
space. Ooh, that's intriguing,too. Yeah, the
antisocial piece, like yousaid, not asocial,
not like back socially backwards,but antisocial
moving against social normsand rules. But yeah,
(20:30):
I'll actually create some pollsfor that on the
YouTube channel. So cast yourvote or comment and
let us know. Yay data!Yes, this is cool. So
the other thing that I thinkis worth mentioning
is that not all schizoid personalitiesare at
disorder level. Like youcan have a schizoid
personality without it beingdiagnostic. It's
(20:51):
just your style. But the moresevere the trauma
or neglect, the higher thelikelihood of schizoid personality disorder
or pathological withdrawal and detachment.
Yes, there's severity levels.
So the more trauma, which includesa build up of
small relational traumas, the more likely
(21:11):
personality dysfunction issevere. Yes, I like
what you said there, evena small build up of
like, like little relationaltraumas, kind of like
death by 1000 paper cuts typeof thing. But so
the limited research thatwe do have is often
more focused on like the severe and
dysfunctional end of schizoid, notyour everyday schizoid
(21:33):
structure. So childhood traumamay or may not
apply to your story as a schizoid. And speaking
of stories, we had multipleviewers comment on
how they don't react to others.And they highlighted
dynamics of power, protection,control and
freedom in contrast to beingfearful of others.
(21:56):
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so first,let's clarify that
our reference to schizoids' fear
is not because schizoids view theworld as hostile and threatening.
That's the paranoid's fear.And it's not the fear
that others will humiliate orreject me, which is
more of like an avoidant personality'sfear. And
(22:16):
of course, it's not the fearof abandonment,
like in borderline personality,it's the fear of
intrusion. So a better wayto say it is that the
world is just too much. Peopleare just too much,
like there's too much stimulationin the world,
which can also come acrossas apathy or just I
(22:37):
don't want to, it's too mucheffort. It's just
too much. Yes, I'm so glad thatthis was brought up.
I don't necessarily think thatthe fear we speak
of feels like consciously scary,maybe anxiety,
but not like an activatinganxiety. Yeah, okay.
Like, I must back up to avoidthe possibility of
(22:57):
overwhelm. So an example,let's do an example.
I went to the playground,and my kiddo engaged
in social interaction withanother mother and
child. I wasn't scared that themother would reject
me, humiliate me, hurt me,think badly of me.
I just wanted to like slowlyback away and not
engage, like recoil, withdraw,avoid. It
(23:19):
feels more like a passive anxietythan like a scary
activating fear, right? Somy heart rate didn't
go up. I didn't sweat or haveracing thoughts. It's
more of like a freeze responseof like, oh crap,
I want to retreat. Right. Okay,this this passive
anxiety, as you were talking,I was actually
(23:41):
thinking about the Bart Simpsongif, where he's
just like backing away intothe bushes. Like, do
you know which one I mean?I do. That's possibly
one of my most common utilizedones and the cat
that dives into the couch. Yeah,that is so funny.
I'm not surprised. Goodness.All right. So
(24:03):
basically, schizoids aren'tnecessarily walking
around actively fearful of the world. So
understanding that we can discusshow withdrawal,
avoidance and not reactingto others could
have those dynamics of power,protection, control
and freedom. Okay, so in regardto schizoids,
(24:26):
sensitive, I think is a multifacetedword here.
I think schizoids are likeso strong. They have
a backbone, sometimes indifference,but still,
they don't get pulled intoinauthenticity or
fakeness. Yeah, I totallyagree. And there's
power in that. So what ifwe think of like
sensitive like the sensitivityof a metal detector,
(24:47):
like an awareness of all the nuances. So
now emotional sensitivity,on the other hand,
could be influenced by differentflavors and
severities of the schizoidpersonality, maybe
even gender. Yeah, I cansee that. Yeah. And
then keeping with the metaldetector analogy,
like though sensitive, theycan be tuned to
(25:07):
have like more or less sensitivity,right?
So with all things personality, there's a
spectrum of how attuned thatsensitivity is.
So then not expressing emotions,not reacting,
etc, may develop over timeto protect the self,
but maybe not as a child.So one viewer wrote
(25:31):
about how withdrawal mightbe the only defense
actually worked in childhoodthat originally a
child may have attempted to stickup for themselves,
fight back, take up space, but they were metwith an array of negative reactions,
ranging from others pushingback against them to
actual abuse. Yes. And I thinkhow in childhood,
(25:56):
the personality is still developing. It's
not necessarily set in stonebecause it's still
malleable. So for some kiddos,they may even have
been pretty social in childhooduntil the social
world turned on them andthey learned it was
safer to withdraw. And of course,there's many,
(26:16):
many nuances to how this could look. But
again, that sensitivity tothe social world
can have different pathways to schizoid
development. Yeah. And I think healthierschizoid children
probably tried to engage with others and
stand their ground, but thesensitivity to others'
negative inauthentic reactionsperhaps made them
realize, well, maybe unconsciouslythat it's just
(26:39):
best to stay quiet. Like don'tengage, dissociate
even if it's severe enough.There is a protective
power in controlling what otherscan see and use
against you. This. So if thingsaren't weaponized
against you, you have morefreedom to act, to
(26:59):
not have to worry about moreanger, more intrusion,
more walking on eggshells.Exactly. Uh-huh. And
then another viewer wrote todeal with stupid or
crazy all around you. The onlyway to win is to
not play. I love that. I lovethat too. And it speaks
(27:19):
to how the drama goes aroundthe schizoid.
They don't engage. And thento your point about
withdrawal as the main defensethat works,
I agree. Like in the exampleyou gave about
learning to hoard data soothers don't use it
against you, that's a powerplay. The schizoid
withdrawal is like the aceup the sleeve when
(27:41):
the social world does the dramadance around them.
The social world doesn't knowwhat to do with that.
And then they eventually leavethe schizoid alone,
which is what they want. Yes.So this actually
brings up another hypothesisof mine that schizoids
could maybe have some antisocialvibes going
against society and conformity.So that's like
(28:01):
social expectations arestupid. People are
fake, inauthentic, dramatic,surface level. So like
communication with people, it's useless,
unnecessary, it's boring. So ifa schizoid does engage in
communication and spend theenergy with another
person, it's quite likely theywill get frustrated
and exhaust quickly. Now,eventually, I think
(28:23):
it's very likely that a schizoidpersonality has just
simply learned to give up on social
engagement, because it's not safe.And there's nothing
positive to gain from it. Yes.Okay, this actually
reminds me of the Enneagram,which is very different
personality typology that's not meant to
capture disorder levels, but moreso like how we move
(28:45):
against or towards core drivesand fears. So the
Enneagram five, the observeroverlaps a lot with
schizoid personalities. Typefive goes to type
eight in growth. The type eightis the alpha power
control type. So here we seethemes of power and
control among both types asthey go against the
(29:08):
grain, but in different ways. So the five
passively withdraws from the socialworld in stubborn
protest and protection.And then the eight
actively moves against the socialworld or social norms.
So they're both themes ofpower and control.
But they're not overt in theschizoid like they're
(29:30):
inside. Right. And that fiveobserver has a
growth pathway towards being intouch with their anger
in an eight space. And Ithink this path may
be where a schizoid might startfinding power and
getting other people to actfirst. Yes. And
again, different personality typology,but I think it's
(29:51):
helpful scaffolding in understanding the
power plays of the schizoidthat are often subtle,
but there. Yeah. And thenof course, this is a
great segue to the experienceof anger for the
schizoids as multiple viewersnoted that they
can feel anger, express it,and sometimes even
have angry tantrums. The more severe the
(30:13):
pathology, it's probably likely thata schizoid personality
is more detached from theiranger. I do think the
more healthy a schizoid is themore they may be in
touch with their anger insteadof detaching
from it. I agree with that.Yeah. Getting in touch
with the anger seems likean important growth
point for them. And I alsothink of expressions
(30:34):
of anger in a schizoid that can look verydifferent, like depending on the person,
maybe the day, who they're around the
subject, how well they've researchedthe subject,
like lots of things. Yeah,sure. So for example,
some days you might consciouslydetach from anger.
Some days my expression of angeris like robotic.
(30:55):
It's like, I'm angry, anger,like I'm just naming
it. I don't know. Sometimes I become
passionate, energetic, and moreintense about a subject
because I'm fueled by anger. Rarely, but
possible, explosions of angerdo occur. So for myself,
if a child is involved, mamabear comes out
(31:15):
fueled by righteous anger and protection.I'm using
Enneagram language again, like thateight space. Yeah.
But I have individual variablesthat have affected
my attachment to my own anger. I'm also
surrounded by Enneagram eights. So it'spossible that I'm more
in touch with anger as wellbecause of that. But
(31:37):
I actually didn't connect withmy anger until my
freshman year of college. This is really
interesting. Yeah. Having a householdof more angry types might
also contribute to how intouch a schizoid is
with their anger. But I haveto ask what happened
freshman year that made youmore in touch with
your anger, Doc Fish? Oh, Ihad a roommate that
(31:58):
was super, super intrusive,like self-focused and
boundary crossing. And I hadto get angry to protect
myself, but it built up formonths and I'm not
even sure I addressed it outsideof therapy. But that
was the last year I had aroommate in college.
Oh, wow. Okay. This is interesting.So you got in
(32:20):
touch with your anger internally.You didn't
explode at your roommate,but you withdrew and
later moved off campus soyou could keep your
turtle shell to yourself. Yes,it's hard to live
with people. Yeah. I think mosttemperaments would
say that, but the schiz in particular.Absolutely.
Yeah. Okay. So thinking backto your example
(32:41):
with the roommate, like let'ssay that was a family
member, but you can't get awayand that person is
horribly intrusive. Like thisis where prolonged
trauma can elicit angry reactionslike an angry
turtle biting an intrusivehand in their shell.
Right. Yeah. So then PTSD alsocan make a schizoid
(33:05):
more in touch with their anger.Like when there's
so much trauma, their shellis essentially
beat up. And the only way tosurvive is to express
anger. Like don't touch, goaway. I can't take one
more trauma and still be alive.It's a protective
anger. Yeah. And also I thinkschizoids can
(33:26):
definitely be in touch withtheir anger through
their internal fantasy. Sosometimes having
violent and perverse fantasies,but they won't act on it.
Right. Yes. So literature tellsus this about the
schizoid and I have also heardbits and pieces of
this from my schizoid familymembers. Like they
tap into that anger up herethat they're not going
(33:48):
to act on. I mean, I havesome, but they're
not appropriate to share.So we'll move on.
Doc Fish's angry fantasies.Oh my goodness.
Okay. So one more quick answerto a question
about schizoid and the bigfive personality
traits. So I scanned the researchand found that
(34:11):
overall schizoid was associated with low
extraversion and low openness.Some studies also had
them associated with loweragreeableness and
higher conscientiousness. Iwould be careful of
all of this because of samplesize. And then
also notably schizotypal wereassociated with more
(34:32):
extraversion and higher openness.This is really
interesting. Okay. Almost likethe boundaries are
too fluid in the schizotypal,which is why
they're on the cusp of realitybecause they're too open.
Yeah. And then it makes sensethat schizoids
would typically be introvertedand less concerned with
what others think or justgoing along with the
(34:55):
social herd, but they do appreciaterules and
structure typically kind oftapping into that
conscientiousness. But again,this can really
vary from person to person.And honestly, I would
say introversion is probablythe most consistently
correlated and then everythingelse depends on
the person. I would agree. Ithink maybe we could
(35:18):
address another question thatI proposed about
raisins because we didn'ttalk about raisins.
Oh, tell me. In Nancy McWilliams paper on
thoughts on schizoid, she has alittle paragraph in there
about how she knows a coupleof schizoids who
don't like raisins. And it gotme thinking because I
hate raisins and I was like,why? I don't like
(35:41):
raisins because they're intrusive,right? Like
if I'm eating a cookie that'ssupposed to have
chocolate chips in it, it shouldn'thave raisins.
That's intrusive. It doesn'tbelong there.
I've heard some different storiesfrom different
people, but that's why I wasso interested in
if y'all like raisins. Oh,that is so great. I'm
(36:03):
glad that you brought thatback around. Yeah,
yeah. Because a few of the schizoidsin my life also
really don't like raisins becausethey are kind
of imposters, if you will. Likeit looks like it's
a chocolate chip, but it'sa raisin in bread
or in cookies. Like that'sjust cruel. Right?
And the intrusion of the flavorand the texture,
(36:27):
even though grapes are okay,maybe wine's okay,
but raisins, multiple schizoidsI've talked to
don't like raisins. But thenagain, looking at
the poll, it's kind of a mixedbag. I think right
now the consensus is like, meh,middle of the road
could take it or leave it.But some people have
strong opinions of, yeah, they'regreat. And some
(36:49):
people are like, nah, getthem away from me.
So it's just interesting. It'sjust interesting.
So not liking raisins isnot a criteria for
schizoid, but it is interesting.So thank you.
It is. It is interesting.Yes. Good, good. All
right. Well, hopefully we haveanswered some of
your questions about the pronunciationof schizoid
(37:09):
versus schizoid. And also whywe talk about mom so
much in this series and reallyin this podcast in general.
So on thatnote, that's a wrap.
Thank you for joining us todayon this episode of
the personality couch. Makesure to check out our
blogs that coincide withthese episodes at
www.personalitycouch.com.And as always,
(37:31):
don't forget to give us athumbs up or rate
and review us on your favoritepodcast app
and on YouTube, hit that bell.So you don't miss a
single episode of our schizoidpersonality series.
Be well, be kind, and we'll see you nexttime on the personality couch.
This podcast is for informationalpurposes only
(37:53):
and does not constitutea professional relationship.
If you're in need of professional help,
please seek out appropriate resourcesin your area.
Information about clinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed in broadand universal terms
and do not refer to any specificperson or case.
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