What if recovery could look different for everyone? In this episode, I sit down with Sylvia Subirana, Head of Content Development at Unconscious Moderation, to dive into alternative paths to healing beyond total abstinence.
We explore:
Why moderation works for some (and not for others)
How hypnotherapy is helping rewire addictive behaviors
The science and stigma behind new recovery tools
The surprising power of journaling for self-discovery
Facing fear, breaking old patterns, and learning to live intentionally
If you’ve struggled with finding your way, or wondered if there’s more than one road up the recovery mountain, this episode is for you. Plus, practical tips you can use today—no matter where you are on your journey.
Listen, learn, and discover a new approach to changing your relationship with alcohol.
Download the Unconscious Moderation app: [Available on iPhone and Play Store]Follow Sylvia for more insights!
LINK TO THE STUDY (Effect of Hypnotherapy in Alcohol Use Disorder Compared With Motivational Interviewing: A Randomized Controlled Trial).
Website: https://um.app/
Apple Store: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/drink-less-alcohol-with-um/id6471595788?mt=8
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/um_app_/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud,
the podcast where we get real about addiction and recovery.
Today's guest is Sylvia Subirana, she's a clinical
psychologist and head of contentdevelopment at Unconscious
Moderation, an app that helps people take control of their
drinking and unlock more meaning, happiness, fulfilment
(00:20):
in their lives. UM uses practical tools like
hypnotherapy, journaling, and supportive community building
exercises to guide users throughlasting change.
Today we explore why moderation works for some and not for
others. How hypnotherapy is helping
rewire addictive behaviors, the science and stigma behind new
recovery tools. The surprising power of
(00:41):
journaling and self discovery. Facing fear, breaking old
patterns, and learning to live intentionally.
Listen, learn and discover a newapproach to changing your
relationship with alcohol. Hello, Sylvia, thank you.
(01:12):
Thank you so much for coming on.I really appreciate it.
We had a really good conversation before this and I'm
very interested in what you do and what your team does with
regards to, you know, not necessary.
When I started this podcast, alcohol moderation was not an
option for me because I tried. I've tried many times and I know
a lot of people that have tried and it just doesn't work for me.
(01:34):
But I'm, I'm starting to realizethat as I get on this journey
more and talk to more people that for one, the world doesn't
revolve around me and not everybody feels and thinks the
same way I do. But there's different paths up
to recovery Mountain, right? And one of the paths is through
moderation and through journaling and hypnotherapy,
which I'm excited to get into today with you.
(01:57):
But why don't you tell us a little bit about your story,
Sylvia, and how you came into this field and what you guys do?
So I'm a clinical psychologist. I love learning about mental
health and how different behaviours affect each person.
And it's, it's a very interesting world for me, like a
very interesting field. I'm very passionate about it,
(02:19):
and I started working a little bit helping people understand
how to have a better relationship with alcohol about
a year and a half ago. And it was when I realized that
I had a lot of knowledge becauseI haven't drunk in around six
years. I don't have a set date because
(02:39):
it was very organic for me. It was six years, six years, six
years and a half ago and I learned a lot during this time
that I haven't drunk. So I decided to combine my
knowledge in psychology, mental health and all that with my
knowledge in the field of livinglife without drinking.
(03:00):
I'm, I never had an addiction. I never had a dependency on
alcohol. But it's true that I started
drinking because everybody else around me started drinking and I
thought that it was just what I had to do, what everybody does,
right. So I realised that I was forcing
something that was not working for me because my body was just
(03:22):
reacting very, very poorly to it.
I had, I got infection dealing to that and like after years of
using alcohol, my body was telling me signs of this is not
working for you, but I just keptignoring it because everybody
else was drinking, right. So what was I supposed to do?
I, I never questioned it. And when I finally questioned it
(03:46):
and I was like, OK, this is not for me.
This is not how I'm supposed to live life.
I realised that I was just like completely avoiding what my body
was telling me and what my mind was telling me.
And it's very, very powerful to learn what your body is telling
you and to live alive more aligned with what you actually
(04:08):
want to do. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
And you know, the first step in that is, is noticing what your
body is telling you, right? That's that took me a long time
to fathom just because I was so preoccupied with other things.
Right. You know, we're having an
interesting conversation off airabout you live in, in Barcelona
or you're near Barcelona in Spain.
(04:30):
And I thought it was really funny because I didn't realize
this until I came into recovery,that I used to think that
everybody partied, everybody diddrugs.
It was everywhere. It's just what people did.
Like you said, right? I, I, I'm, I'm going to do it
just because other people are doing it.
I want to fit in. You were telling me how you
don't see any drugs and you don't, you know, you don't see
that lifestyle because you're not in it.
(04:51):
And I just, I always think that's interesting because I
have the same experience now living in downtown Toronto.
You know, there's a lot of drugsand, and a lot of places and
parties that I just, I'm not exposed to anymore.
Like what a, what a miracle. You know, you stop drinking and
you find this, stop drinking andstop using drugs and you find
this community of people that are just living a different
lifestyle. And I can tell you, I haven't
(05:12):
seen drugs in quite a while now,right?
I always find that interesting. So definitely.
So you're the, you know, you work with the Unconscious
Moderation app, which is available on the iPhone and Play
Store. Why don't you tell us a little
bit about what inspired the creation of the Unconscious
Moderation app? And yeah, cool.
(05:35):
It was the IT was created because, well, alcohol is
everywhere. We were talking about drugs and
everything and drugs because they're not legal, at least in
many, many countries in the world.
Drugs are not legal, but you don't really see them as easily
as you see alcohol. But alcohol is everywhere is
(05:57):
even in workplaces, like people drink to seal deal some
sometimes, you know? So it's just amazing to think
that something that is killing us is so, so normalized and
everybody is just like even judging you when you're not
drinking, right? So it was a group of a bit of
(06:22):
like there's psychologists, there's different people that
were starting to well, realize that.
And little by little more peopleadded on that on that group
where we realized, OK, we need to target this, but there's
many, many programs out there. But still, this is a big issue
that people don't really know how to address, right?
(06:46):
Because yes, less people are drinking right now.
And if you look at younger generations, they are not
jumping in like for example, as I said before, you just do it
because everybody else does. Now there's more and more people
that actually question it and decide not to drink.
But of course that's happening now with younger generations.
I'm in my late 20s and I've had a different, a very different
(07:09):
upbringing, right? So when we, when we wanted to
target like, OK, how can we helppeople do it?
We had a look at different programs and then we realized
that hymnotherapy had been used for many, many different
addictions, many different conditions.
Like it doesn't need to be an addiction.
It could be like IBS, for example, for gut issues and to
(07:33):
treat anxiety in, in other things in general.
And it had been proven very, very effective in all these
different aspects, right? So we were like, OK, we cannot
find a programme that targets orthat helps people rewire their
relationship with alcohol with using hemotherapy, right.
(07:53):
So we implemented it and then wecombined the conscious work
because hemotherapy, it touches the unconscious mind, but then
we wanted to also work with the conscious mind.
So that's why we also added journaling and other tools to
complement it. And it's been proven that well,
very effective. And obviously the app has was
(08:15):
released only like 6 months ago.So we haven't seen long term
results yet. But our users have expressed it,
they're very, very happy with it.
And they they actually notice the the changes and they notice
that it works. That's amazing.
Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate that
because not everybody that I've come into contact to, with in
(08:39):
addiction and alcoholism is willing to go to, to meetings or
to try, they have a bad experience with, with, you know,
social groups or, or rehab centers.
There's, there's a bit of a stigma around it for some
people. And so I love apps.
I've I've always loved apps. I think there's a lot of very
useful apps out there. And this is, you know, it's just
(09:01):
a great way for people to kind of get involved without that big
step into an uncomfortable position.
What, what makes unconscious minds approach different from
other moderation? I mean, you mentioned the
hypnotherapy, but I, I started using the app and it was very
user friendly. You know, it asked a bunch of
(09:21):
questions and got some background, but what kind of
makes it different that you, that you think?
What makes it stand out? I think well, we haven't found
any other programs that use human therapy.
And also the, the journaling that we use is very, it's very
targeted to complement the, the journey, right.
Whereas we've seen other programs that they do use
(09:43):
journaling, but it's more generic when we start it.
We, we, we had generic questionsin journaling.
But now little by little, we're learning, we're researching more
and then we're making it more specific to help people actually
see better results, right? So I believe that with this
(10:05):
unconscious work with hemotherapy that makes our
program, different people see results a bit faster.
Again, there are many, many different things out there, many
tools that are effective and have been proven effective.
But I think that giving even more options to people is very
helpful because what might work for me might not work for you.
(10:27):
So might, maybe hemotherapy works for me, but might not work
for you, right. So given the possibilities to
people for people to try in different things, I think it's
very, very powerful and very helpful for people to to try out
new things. And this is definitely a new
thing and hymnotherapy in treating alcohol consumption.
(10:50):
And we also don't Geminis or blame people that decide to
moderate instead of quitting completely because we've seen
that many programs out there play with that blame and make
you feel bad if you have a relapse or if you have one drink
(11:11):
one day. And we understand that this is
not a linear, linear process. It's not as easy as just like
deciding something and changing it and that's it.
You are going to have falls, you're going to have obstacles
in your way and that is completely fine.
It's part of the process. And actually, a lot of people
say that it's been proven that when you are implementing a new
(11:36):
habit or you're quitting A substance, you have withdrawal
symptoms. And then you work through these
and then they get better. And then at one point they get
worse and you're like, Oh my God, they are so, so strong.
But it's like the last push of those withdrawal symptoms.
And then when you cross that path that that wall or that
(11:56):
obstacle, then you're going to feel like, OK, those withdrawal
symptoms have just calmed down and they lose their power a lot.
So hypnotherapy just helps people go through this journey
with a bit more of a calm state because obviously these
withdrawal symptoms can trigger a lot of anxiety as well and a
(12:21):
lot of like nervousness. So hypnotherapy helps you be a
bit more calmed down. And those withdrawal symptoms
also have less power, so they are not as well as strong and as
well you when you feel them, youneed to actually act on them
because they're painful even. But hemorotherapy helps you just
(12:45):
reduce the the power of the symptoms so they're actually
more manageable. Yeah, I I can agree with that
for sure. You know, as you were talking, I
was thinking about the the mental state always precedes the
first relapse for me, right? And I love what you said about
sometimes you just need to like hold on to the steering wheel
(13:05):
and get through that last push, right?
I do understand too that, you know, for those listening, there
is a medical component for a lotof people that are drinking a
lot and that's important too. And your app actually does go
through that, right? Like it does have those
disclaimers. And, you know, it's not always
safe for people to detox on certain substances, especially
alcohol, without medical assistance and supervision.
(13:26):
So I, I want to state that that that's important as well.
You know, I want to talk about this, this idea of fear because
I think fear is the big motivator behind everything in
my life. Every time I relapsed, there was
some kind of fear down. And you know, this latest one
that I went through, there was this fear of I, I called it
boredom at the time because I didn't understand that that
(13:49):
boredom is actually fear hiding itself.
And most emotions are, are fear,right?
You know, I got to a point whereI was kind of sitting in my car
and life was just kind of ordinarily going along.
You know, there was nothing exciting, nothing too sad.
And I, I came to this realization that I crave chaos
(14:10):
to kind of distract myself from this fear and this hating myself
and this uncomfortability with where I'm at.
And I should be here. I should be doing this right.
And so I kind of, I came to the conclusion that it, it was just
this fear of, Oh my God, is thismy life now?
You know, am I going to just go on the rest of my life without
any fun, any excitement? And I found that, no, that's not
(14:33):
true. If I had just pushed through
that, that, that last little bit, that last, you know,
obstacle, as you say, and reached out for help and, and
did something about it instead of did things my way, I think I
would have been OK. But to your point, I needed to
go through that again to hit another emotional and spiritual
bottom, right? Like I needed to hit another
(14:54):
bottom where I was like, OK, this recovery thing has to be my
life today. It has to be it.
It's not a hobby for me. And this is my story.
I can't moderate. I can't do any of these things.
I need to remain completely abstinent and I need to stay
connected to people and to my myhigher power, my God.
Right? So this idea of fear, like what?
(15:16):
Why do you think fear of change is so powerful and even though
we know deep down that it can help us?
So it's very powerful because wehave internal patterns that keep
us quote, UN quote, safe, which maybe they're not keeping us
(15:36):
safe, but our body, our mind thinks that we are being
protected, right? Because when we were growing up,
those type of behaviours actually kept us safe because of
the situation that we were in, right?
So we learn these patterns that might not be safe for an adult
person and they bring you to do different things and for
(15:59):
example, consuming alcohol, drugs or scrolling on TikTok or
watching Netflix or many, many different things, right?
Because sitting down with our emotions, understanding where
everything comes from can be very, very painful and scary as
(16:20):
well. Because then sometimes it's
easier to say, OK, I don't know anything, then I'm not
addressing anything, right? But actually that's what gets
you stuck in the same place without moving.
And I think that, as you said, that fear paralyzes you.
I think it paralyzes everyone. We have this fear of missing out
(16:43):
in general, of not doing what we're expected to do, of not
achieving what we are expected to achieve, of not have a good,
not having a good life, not doing this, not doing that.
And the pressure is just so, so,so strong that I think that
pressure, that social pressure that we that we have from
(17:04):
everyone around us, but also from social media.
There's a lot coming from there that we constantly see people
having their best lives. And then you compare your life
and you, then you're like, my life is very blunt.
It's very boring, right? Because look at these people
having the best lives ever. So I think there's so many
things that actually interfere in that pressure.
(17:27):
And then that pressure creates that fear of am I living my life
correctly? So when that fear is very, very
strong, it just paralyzes you and you are not able to do
anything about it because it's so strong that you don't know
where to start. And there's also that.
So there's that. And then there's the what I was
talking about before the the patterns and all that.
(17:49):
We feel like that what we've been doing till now is, is our
safe space or is it's our normality, right?
It's something that we can control.
And when we start creating shifts or having new habits or
stop or reducing or completely stopping to have some, some
(18:11):
behaviors or some drugs or alcohol or like other
substances, we don't know what'scoming on the other side.
We don't understand, like our mind cannot understand that it
can be actually better. We are stuck in this, OK, I
don't know what's going on or what's going to happen in, I
(18:32):
don't know, six months, a year, five years from now.
But I know what's happening right now and I know that the
situation right now, I can control it.
But again, the situation right now can be absolutely destroying
you. But you have that feeling of
control. And again, we are always looking
(18:53):
for things that we can control. We hate as humans uncertainty
and things that we cannot control and they are out of our
decision. And again, we like in our lives,
there's so little that we can actually control.
We think that we have more toolsthan we actually have.
Life just goes on, right? Then you have to adapt to it and
(19:17):
understand that life changes constantly.
We, we cannot stay in the same state only because of fear,
because eventually what you're not changing, you're choosing,
you're actually choosing not to change.
So actually you're actually likelittle by little, your life will
change and then you will actually adapt those behaviors
(19:41):
to those changes, right. So getting stuck into that, I
don't want to change. I just want my life to be
exactly how it is. It's actually not going to
happen because it cannot happen.Life is changing constantly.
Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I'm happy you mentioned the the
(20:01):
illusion of control because you know, as it says, as I've heard
so many times before. The, the, the great illusion
that I can drink like other people, you know, I'll try that
a million times till Sunday until I can figure it out.
Because you're right. It's like there's so much in the
world I can't control. What do you mean I can't control
(20:21):
my drinking? And the way I feel like there's
already all this other stuff andthen I come home and I have to
feel this way. Like that's so uncomfortable to
me, right? I, I think that's, that's
especially true. And I've, I've proven that in my
life so many times, right? I'm, I'm really interested in
this hypnotherapy process. Can you kind of explain a little
bit more what, what it is and like what the app kind of does?
(20:44):
What does it look like? So in the app, we do 15 minutes
a day of hymnotherapy. It's an audio that you just put
some headphones on and you listen to and then so it's 30
minutes a day and 15 minutes of hymnotherapy and then 15 minutes
of conscious work. That hymnotherapy, it's very
similar to a relaxation or meditation.
(21:07):
And a lot of people have actually listened to those
before because they're very, very, very famous and very
common for people to actually listen to.
So it's not that weird or that different from all the things
that people have tried. And I actually get this asked a
lot like is it powerful? Is it, is it like in a bad way?
(21:30):
Is it dangerous? Is are there any side effects to
hymnotherapy? Because we've seen hypnosis in
movies and in theaters. And obviously that was just for
the show, right? It's not how it works in in
therapy or in like a clinical like area, right field.
So basically what that audio is is you put those headphones in
(21:54):
and then you get into a deep state of relaxation where all
your worries and all that conscious noise just dials down
its intensity. But you are still conscious.
You're still aware of everythingthat's happening, which is
something that a lot of people feel like, is it going to knock
me out and then I'm not going tobe able to remember what
happened? No, you are conscious all the
(22:16):
time and you understand and listen to everything.
But basically the difference between hymnotherapy and
meditation of relaxation is thathymnotherapy opens your mind to
suggestions, right? So, for example, a lot of people
have a drink when they're stressed.
(22:37):
It's a very, very common thing to say, OK, I've had a very
stressful day at work and my mind just automatically thinks
of having a glass of wine or twoor a whole bottle.
It really depends on the person.So that connection between
stress and alcohol is pretty much automatic.
And your mind or all of our minds have so many things to do
(23:00):
in our bodies, like we, they need to keep us alive, right?
And there's so many things that we do that our body does that we
don't think about, like breathing, like every internal
organ has its own thing to do and we don't realize, we don't
think, we don't think about it, right?
So the brains, our brains want to optimize energy so they can
(23:24):
actually save part of that energy to send to those organs,
right? So when we do something
repeatedly, like for example, I'm stressed, then I drink a
glass of wine, it's automatic. Like the the brain creates a
path between neurons, between brain cells that is very
reinforced because the brain doesn't understand the
(23:45):
difference between what's good for you, what's bad for you.
It only understands the difference between something
that you do very frequently and something that you don't do
frequently. So when it reinforces that path
between neurons, that is a connection that becomes
automatic. So every time that you're going
to be stressed, you're going to be thinking of alcohol straight
away because that is a path thatis very, very reinforced, right?
(24:07):
So what immunotherapy does is open the mind to different paths
between neurons. So little by little, that path
that was created that I'm stressed, then I'm going to have
a glass of wine loses its power.And then all the paths, all the
alternative paths can have more and more power little by little,
right? So in the end, when you're
(24:29):
stressed, you're going to see many options.
Instead of just seeing one like got that glass of wine, you're
going to see options like calling a friend or going for a
walk or baking a cake or doing anything you want and anything
that you enjoy doing because your mind broadens and sees more
(24:50):
than actually alcohol as the only solution.
So that's why, and that's why it's very, it's very helpful
because people see this shift quite fast.
Obviously you're not going to see it on the first day, but
after 10 days, people start seeing that shift in that those,
well, those options, right? And it's easier for them to
(25:12):
actually choose something else rather than alcohol.
Yeah, wow, I love that. It's it's kind of like this knee
jerk reaction that I'm stressed.I'm going to drink it.
It's so true. You don't even think about it.
And and hence the unconscious part of of the brain.
And so it's just slowly rewiringthese pathways.
(25:33):
I I think that that you explained that very well.
Thank you. This, this kind of area of, of
therapy is not, it's not studiedentirely yet, right?
So we don't really know. There's not a lot of science
behind it. There's not a lot of data in
regards to hypnotherapy and alcohol.
But you were mentioning to me that there there is some science
(25:54):
out there right now. So there's, it's true that
there's not a lot of studies that have actually linked
hypnotherapy with treating alcohol like alcoholism or
helping people reduce the alcohol intake.
But chemotherapy has been linkedto many addiction recovery like
(26:17):
pathways or for treating other, other symptoms like for example
anxiety, as I was saying before,like anxiety IBS, it was very,
very common to treat like tobacco addiction some years
ago. So even though there's not many
data or the, there's some data that is coming out now, like
(26:39):
some studies that are coming outnow between like showing the
link between hymnotherapy and alcoholism, the the studies that
show the, the success in hymnotherapy are more like
considering addictions in general.
But in the end, of course, each drug or each substance that you
(27:01):
take or each behaviour that you do is different, but your brain
sort of reacts in a very similarway.
So what works for one will work for the other.
Generally, like something like hypnotherapy will work for both
because your brain sort of gets attached to that.
And maybe I like, for example, me as a person that drinks
(27:22):
frequently when I'm stressed, asI said before the example that
I'm saying that I was saying before, right when I'm stressed,
I drink. But then maybe you when you're
stressed, you gamble or when you're stressed you smoke.
So those connections that I was talking about before are
different in each person. They have a different behaviour,
a different consequence, but they all come from a very
(27:45):
similar place. So that's why when when you
search about like immunotherapy and how can it help, it can help
different addictions. There's so many studies in many,
many different addictions and there's not many in alcoholism,
but I found a study done in Norway that showed that people
(28:05):
that their hypnotherapy sessionsone like when treating
alcoholism one year after and 80% of them had been completely
abstinent for that whole year. So 80% is a very, very large
number of people, right? So I think it's, it's very
effective and it can be very, very helpful.
(28:27):
And then in, in different addictions in general or other
behaviours, it's been proven, obviously it's very, very broad,
but between 50% and 80% of of like abstinence or change in
behavior or all that as well. So I think it's a very, very
powerful tool that it's worth considering.
(28:49):
Yeah, that's, that's a great number.
I mean, you know, having been totreatment, they always tell us
that there's this kind of standing statistic of, you know,
one in 10 people will will die from the, or will make it,
sorry, one in 10 people will, will make it from this, from
this disease. There's like a 10% chance,
right? So I mean, that's, that's really
(29:10):
promising. I journaling is a big part of my
recovery. And I never really wanted to do
it. It wasn't one of those things
where I was like, you know, I'm going to journal every day.
Most things that I practice in my life today to recover are
something that came from somebody before me, right?
Something that was recommended to me either by a therapist or
(29:31):
by a fellow alcoholic and addict.
And so for me, what I found is, you know, I had a hard time
starting like you, you mentionedbefore, there's this like,
there's this hurdle. It's like, and I could say the
same thing about going to the gym, right?
Or doing anything healthy. I just sometimes I just need to
get there because there's this fear of leaving my comfortable
(29:51):
home and going into this uncomfortable state, right?
And I find that that happened with journaling too.
It's like, well, where do I start?
I don't know what to do what, what kind of, you know, what's
the point? So where do you kind of tell
people to start? Where does the app prompt you?
How does it prompt you? So the, the way that we work
with journaling in the app is tocompliment that hymnotherapy
(30:13):
part that I was talking about. And before the, the hymnotherapy
that we offered was general, which is still helpful, but it
was more general like, so peoplecould understand themselves.
Like for example, what do you dowhen you're angry or how do you
deal with this type of situation?
Or what are three things that you're grateful for today,
(30:35):
right? And different things like that,
which again, many, many programsthat they do these questions or
ask these questions to to their users.
And it works like they're very effective, but we wanted to make
it more more targeted to actually helping the people
understand themselves better andlearning about their patterns.
(30:55):
Because when you know about yourpattern, you're like 50% there.
Like you have gained so much. Once you know what's going on,
your, your halfway of the path is done.
Like what When you know it and accept it, because knowing and
accepting it can not come together sometimes because some
people know it, but then they don't, they don't accept it as
(31:18):
part of their reality. Right.
So what what we do with, with our journaling is we, we take
people into like a path of imagination, like different
adventures that we call it. And then they, we put them into
a different situation, like situations obviously all
(31:38):
imaginary that they have to think of how they would react,
what would they do and differentthings.
And all these situations later on have or they make sense
because in the end they will learn about their patterns.
They will learn about how they make decisions, why they choose
(31:59):
certain things. Because each week it's sort of
it's like a different adventure.And at the end of the week you
understand a bit a little bit more why you chose where you
chose. And there's an explanation of
everything. So again, there's no right or
wrong because everyone chooses their own thing, right?
And, and everything is, is, well, everything is good.
(32:19):
You don't need to be thinking, OK, I should choose this, but my
mind is telling me to choose theother thing, right?
No, everything is fine, everything is good.
You just choose whatever your mind tells you to do, right.
And again, when you learn about these patterns and how you how
you process and all that emotionand, and what triggers different
(32:40):
things, then you can actually start doing those changes.
Because when once you know it, knowledge is power.
Once you know it, then you can actually address it.
You cannot address what you don't know.
I, I couldn't agree more. And you know, I one thing that I
learned from journaling and this, this took some time,
right? It didn't happen right away, but
(33:01):
I was in treatment this last time and I just journaled every
day because they told me to. And just whatever was on my
mind, I came to this, this conclusion and it was pretty
revolution like revelatory for me.
It was a pretty profound moment.And this has happened a few
times where I've come, I came tothis realization that, you know,
what I told you about the chaos thing, I came to that
realization in journaling, right, that I crave this kind of
(33:23):
chaotic state in my life with drugs and alcohol to escape
feeling me. And, and, you know, having to
look at myself in the mirror and, and atone for all the kind
of bad things that I did, right,get through this guilt and shame
was the underlying feeling. You know, I felt bad about all
the people I hurt, felt bad about hurting myself.
I felt bad about relapsing aftereight years clean and sober.
(33:45):
And so journaling, I was able toforgive myself for that, but I
also was able to realize why I choose to pick up drugs and
alcohol. And it was because I don't like
this kind of mundane state. I, I, I need this sort of up and
down crazy life to feel OK in myown skin.
And then the other thing too that I was going to mention that
I noticed too was so in my active addiction, I like to hang
(34:09):
out with. And I've heard that this, this
is pretty universal with people like me.
We kind of choose these. I hate using this, this term,
But you know, in one of the literatures that I read it, it
calls it lower companions, right?
These these sort of people that are using more than I am.
(34:29):
They're, they're partying harderthan I am.
They're using harder drugs than I am.
They're drinking more than I am.And I, I always like to hang out
with these people, I've realizedbecause I feel better about
myself, right? And I'm, well, I'm at least I'm
not doing heroin, or at least I'm not drinking, you know, 10
bottles a day. I'm not that bad.
(34:50):
You know, it's OK, buddy. Like you're, you're not that
bad. You can get.
And it was just this justification to kind of keep
going and live the life that I was living.
Or they're stealing way more than I am.
So at least I'm not stealing from the government, right?
And I came to those conclusions all through journaling.
And it was a pretty, you know, euphoric Eureka moment for me.
And that's why I continued to doit today.
(35:10):
And, and again, I don't have these moments every day where
I'm like, Oh my God, it all makes sense now.
Like that's not the case, right?But through time and effort, I
have come to these realizations.And it's a beautiful thing
because now, like you said, I, I've, I'm 50% of the way there.
I've realized it. Well, what are you going to do
about it, right? Just because you realize
something doesn't mean it's going to change.
I have to do something about it.So when I go to the state of
(35:31):
boredom or I'm not enough, life's not enough.
I should be making more money. I should be more successful.
I should be helping more people.I should be more sober even I
should have more clean time, right?
I, I, I have these real, these thoughts that now I can kind of
say to myself, oh, I'm doing that thing again.
And I just kind of laugh about it.
I'm like, I'm doing that. My brain is doing that thing
(35:52):
again where it wants to be comfortable and it doesn't want
to embrace pain, right? So I can just embrace the pain
now and be like, oh, yeah, it's going to be OK, you're going to
get through this. And then I always say is like,
just get through the day, just get through the hour.
And like you said, it's just getting through those hurdles
because that delayed gratification over the instant
gratification is so much better in my experience, right?
(36:14):
That just get through today because tomorrow will be
different and it's always true. Tomorrow will be different.
Just get to bed sober, clean, you know, and, and tomorrow will
be different. Yeah.
And what I always like to say isthat we think that we see the
world objectively, like life is as it is, right?
And that is completely wrong. We don't see the world as it is.
(36:35):
We see the world as we are and as we see.
So if you surround yourself by people that do more drugs than
you or drink more than you, thenyou have that sense of, OK, I'm
not as bad as them, so I am OK, right.
But then you're comparing yourself to something that you
see very, very frequently. So your mind understands that
that is your normality quote. UN quote, right, Your baseline,
(36:59):
yeah. Exactly.
But if you lived a different life and then you don't see
those people, then you would be like, your comparison would be
like, you are the one that is having the most drugs compared
to these, these group of people,right?
Like these people. So it is all about perspective
and it's all about what you see and what you are exposed to.
(37:20):
So I think that when people understand that and the
subjectivity of the way that we live the world in our lives,
it's, I think it, it's somethingclicks.
At least it, it clicked for me because then I was like, OK,
there's no right or wrong. Like it's not that static right?
Like this is right. This is wrong.
(37:41):
Exactly. It's not.
There's so, so many colours in between and, and maybe what
might be right for me might not be right for another person.
So I have to choose what's rightfor me and to know that I have
to know myself and I have to self reflect and take my time to
sit down and understand where myemotions are coming from and
what I do to, to tackle them andto understand them.
(38:05):
Because to numb the emotions. And it doesn't need to be with
like alcohol or drugs or other substances or like behaviors
like gambling and stuff like that.
A lot of people do it with, for example, chocolate, which is
obviously very accessible in anysupermarket or with, as I was
saying before scrolling on social media.
(38:25):
And then we see people that are using their phones for 10 hours
a day and that is a lot, right? So everyone chooses their
behaviour differently or everyone has their escape, a
different escape, right? And understanding why you're
doing that and what triggers that moment of or that need of
escaping is, as you said before,is is it's a, it's a Eureka
(38:48):
moment because then you can actually target that and work on
that. I love that you.
Are who you surround yourself with, right?
And I try to live by that today.You know, my friend group in my
circle today are it doesn't matter what they have a material
wise. I look for people that are
(39:09):
working on themselves everyday, you know, people that are
constantly doing this inner work.
That's those are the people I want to be around because that's
what I need to do instead of looking externally.
I need a car, I need a boat, I need a new, you know, job.
I, I have to look internally and, and find the kind of joy
and peace that way. I love that it's so true.
(39:33):
Relapse is unfortunately a part of recovery.
It's been in a part of my life, you know, slips relapse.
I wanna, you know, say I, I learned the difference between a
slip and a relapse. A slip is kind of when you're,
you have like that one drink or that one pill or that one line
and you catch it right away and you jump back into recovery,
right? The relapse is when you kind of
(39:54):
fully indulge and I, I never, I don't, I, I don't think I ever
really had many slips. Mine were full blown relapses
because I never caught them and corrected them and I, and I was
too far gone right. This last time it took me 4
months to try and get back in and those were four months of
hell. You know, it's a progressive
disease. It always gets worse for me.
(40:14):
I always pick up where I left off and then it just gets way
worse. I'm doing new drugs, I'm hanging
out with, you know, people I shouldn't be hanging out with.
I'm going to nightclubs and barsthat I have no business being
being at. How does the app kind of help
users keep going if they have a slip?
So as I was saying before. We never blame anybody.
We never demonize alcohol or anyother substance.
(40:36):
We always understand that it's part of the process and we
encourage people to keep going. It's OK if you have a slip, it's
OK if you have a drink or like this app is targeted in alcohol,
but it's OK if you have a a slipwith any other substance or
behavior. It's OK if you drink because
(40:56):
it's part of the process. You're going to have your ups
and downs and understanding themand giving space to them is also
part of, of your growth and the,the journey.
Because it cannot be as as easy as just like quitting or
deciding to reduce alcohol and never feeling that craving or
that, that need to have slip or worse, right at going deeper
(41:21):
into it. So, so the way that we do it is
again, reinforcing that they're doing a great job.
Because if the, the program is, is 90 days long, but the first
30 days is completely like no alcohol at all.
But if you have alcohol during those 30 days, we say that's
completely fine. Keep going because by the by day
(41:42):
30 you will have drunk way less than what you drank the month
before. Because if you had 1234 drinks
in this month compared to the month before where maybe you had
20 or 15 or even like 10, that is progress.
That is something that is changing in your mind.
(42:04):
You are actually shifting and ifyou keep working on it, you are
going to and actually get somewhere, right?
If you give up when you have onedrink, then you're not doing any
progress, right? So that's why we, we're very
open to people having these moments.
Of course, the the less you drink, the better, right?
(42:26):
But we're never going to blame anybody or make anybody feel
like they're failed when when they had one drink when maybe
they could not, like they could not have like give the space to
that urge or that crazy that they were having, right?
Because sometimes, as I said before, they're very powerful
(42:48):
and again during, so the, the, the programme is 90 days and
some people choose to, to not drink during all those 90 days.
So the programme sort of looks the same all those three months.
But then on day 30, they can choose if they want to moderate
as well. So we give tools to people so
they can understand again, what triggers the urge to drink when
(43:11):
like they're emotional straight when they drink.
And they, we also keep like a, like a drink tracker so they can
be very aware of the amount of alcohol that they have or that
they want to have, right? So they again, knowledge is
power. So when you know your what, like
the why, when you know your triggers, your triggers, when
(43:33):
you know your, the, your emotional state and when you
know all these things, then you can actually understand better
your, you use of alcohol and yourself.
So then you can actually create change, right?
But as, as I always say, moderation is way more difficult
than going completely dry. I I always think that
(43:55):
moderating, when you've had, when you've used alcohol more,
when you go to moderating, you always have to be very on top of
it and you always have to reviseyourself.
It's stressful. Yeah, yeah.
Because I always tell. People like, I don't know how
you do it because for me it's easy.
It's no alcohol, OK, it's out ofthe picture.
And when you don't have the option, it's your mental load.
(44:18):
Just like calms down, it reducesby half.
But then when someone is choosing to moderate, they
always need to be on top of whatthey're doing.
Am I drinking today? Am I not going to drink today?
Why am I drinking today? How many drinks would I have?
And you always have to be like, balancing it.
Oh yeah. It's so true.
Or, or I'm going to say I have a, you know, I have a social
(44:40):
engagement tonight, so I'm goingto save my 2 drinks for tonight.
I just got to get through to that, you know, that social
party and then and then you have3 and you're like, Oh, I was
only supposed to have two. And it's so true.
It's so much easier just to callit off completely.
I love that 30 day idea too, because I'm just thinking about
that like if you can do, if you can control your drinking and 30
days is will tell you a lot about yourself a lot.
(45:02):
If you try to, if you focus on or drinking in 30 days, you're
going to learn a lot about yourself, right?
Wow, I didn't realize that I hadone after work every day.
You know, I didn't realize that I had five before noon even I
didn't even realize, you know, And so I, I love that.
I think 30 days is a really goodindicator of, hey, maybe I want
to stop doing this all together,or maybe I can control it and
(45:25):
moderate that. So it's a it's a great test, you
know, living. I want to talk about living
intentionally. What you know, what does living
intentionally mean to you Today for me is.
Understanding what I want to do with my life and how I want to
(45:46):
spend the time that I'm in this earth, right?
Because I feel like everyone lives on autopilot and we don't,
we don't think that we're going to die someday, but the truth is
we don't even know if we're going to be here tomorrow,
right? So I, I'm, I'm very like, I
always go back to living in autopilot and I keep bringing
(46:08):
myself back to this thought of no, OK, how do you want to live
life? What do you want to spend time
doing and what you don't want tospend time doing?
Because sometimes I've found myself forcing myself to do
stuff that I didn't want to do or in situations where I didn't
want to be in or stay in longer somewhere where I was, I would
(46:31):
have been better just leaving, Idon't know, 3 hours before I
left, right? So to do that, of course, it's I
need to revise myself constantlyand understand where my
priorities are at the moment. Because obviously these
priorities change the, the olderthat I get, right?
So for me, living intentionally is given space to understand how
(46:57):
I want to spend my time, my limited time on Earth.
Yeah, time is is the most valuable.
Thing, you know, I always say that and it, it, it really is
the only thing that we got and the only thing that could be
taken away in, in a moment. You know, we never know.
That's why this one day at a time thing is so powerful.
It's like, I don't know if I'm going to be here tomorrow, like
you said, So how am I going to live my best life today?
(47:19):
And my, my best life is different than your best life is
different than my wife's best life.
It's it's different for everybody.
And so that's why it's importantto do this self discovery.
Sylvia, if there's, you know, there's someone out there
listening that doesn't know if they want to stop, but their,
their life is they're starting to have consequences as a result
of drinking, right? Losing the job, losing
(47:40):
relationships for me, you know, losing my sanity, right?
Like losing my goals, my aspirations, all these things
were just crumbling in on me. Finances were through the roof.
What's one small thing that anybody can do today?
Something. That is accessible.
(48:01):
Maybe not easy, but accessible. Very accessible is when you're
going to pour yourself a drink or when you're going to ask like
you're going to a bar to ask foranother drink or when you're in
a situation where you're actually going to have another
glass of wine or another bee or another whatever you're having.
Ask yourself like stop and ask yourself, why do I actually want
(48:25):
this? Or is it because I'm stressed?
Is it because I am before pre pressure because I'm everyone
else around me is drunk? Or is it because I am trying to
numb something that is worrying me?
Right. And I said that it's accessible,
but not easy because it's sometimes it's very, very
painful to understand where all where this is coming from,
(48:49):
right. But I think that when people
understand their whys, again, they can actually start shifting
their their behaviours, right and and understanding more how
they wanna live life. So for me, the first step is
always stopping and understanding where this is
coming from. And again, you might not know
(49:09):
the first, I don't know, 5-10 times you might not know because
if you have never taken the timeto understand yourself, it's
something very new, right? So given the time to work on, it
will grow, will come with time, but you actually need to
understand or like ask yourself why frequently.
(49:29):
So then you can actually get to a response that can actually
help you. I love that, you know, I always.
Ask myself, what is my motive here?
You know, what is my motive? What, what am I trying to
achieve? Am I trying to fit in like you
said? Or can I actually just not stop
because of sad emotion and I'm stressed?
I think that that's a very practical tip that anybody can
(49:54):
try. And it's, it's not easy, like
you said, because when you're init, sometimes what's the point?
But if you build that muscle over time, it's like going to
the gym, you know, it's, it's really, you're going to suck at
first at when you're lifting weights, anything new, right?
Paddle boarding was one for me. I got into paddle boarding and
you know, I sucked at first, butI over time you build that
muscle, You keep doing it over and over again.
(50:14):
And then hopefully you come to apoint of realization where
you're this isn't serving me, You know, this isn't benefiting
me. Maybe I can do something else
instead, like go for a walk or, or try a new hobby or connect
with a friend. Like you said, pick up the
phone. Sylvia.
I really sorry and definitely. The last thing I was going to
say is, and sometimes we think that the reason behind our urge
(50:38):
to drink is very, very deep, like for example, that emotional
or trying to fit in and all this.
But I realized, obviously duringthese these six years that I've
been navigating this, I realizedthat sometimes now that, for
example, we're approaching a hot, like hot summer days and
all that, I remember I just was craving something refreshing.
(50:58):
So I would be like, I really crave like a fresh, a refreshing
cocktail or like a cold bee or something like that.
And then I was like, what if I just have the like, I don't
know, something different that is also refreshing.
And then I realized that that's what I was craving.
I was craving that nice drink that was a bit like, I don't
know, a bit different from wateror like a soda, but would
(51:19):
actually give me that. I don't know that reflect
freshness right in a, in a hot summer day.
So it doesn't need to be a very deep reasoning.
It can be as easy as you just want something fresh or you just
want something sweet or any anything like that.
So sometimes you don't need to go that deep.
But the more you ask yourself why, the more reasons you'll
(51:41):
see, and then the the more you understand what triggers those
urges, right? That's a great point.
That is a. Phenomenal point I come to a
realization too that yeah, I I just like soda water, you know
this sparkling water that that often times I'm just thirsty and
I just want, you know, a refreshing drink.
(52:02):
I I love that it's so true. Sylvia, thank you so much for
your time. Time is a valuable thing.
I think what you're doing is, isa beautiful, an important
journey. You know, you've, you've given
us a lot of practical, helpful tips that we can implement in
our lives and where can we find you and where can we find the
app? So the app.
(52:23):
If people search unconscious moderation in App Store or in
Google Play, they will find it. And if they have more questions
about how the program works, who's behind it and all this, I
always suggest having a look at the website, which is UM dot
app. So UM dot APP, everything is
explained there. There's so much information that
(52:44):
is very, very relevant. And if anybody has any question
that is not responded in the in the website, there's also a
contact form that they can send any questions that they have or
we'll be happy to respond. We're also on on social media
like Instagram. So yeah, I encourage everyone to
just feel free and have a look. Love it.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your your words of,
(53:08):
you know, experience, strength and hope and there is another
solution. You know there is another way.
So thank you for what you do anduntil next time, I appreciate
you. Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.
(53:30):
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
struggling with addiction, please consult the licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional.
You are no longer alone.
Hello everyone, welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud,
the podcast where we get real about addiction and recovery.
Today's guest is Sylvia Subirana, she's a clinical
psychologist and head of contentdevelopment at Unconscious
Moderation, an app that helps people take control of their
drinking and unlock more meaning, happiness, fulfilment
(00:20):
in their lives. UM uses practical tools like
hypnotherapy, journaling, and supportive community building
exercises to guide users throughlasting change.
Today we explore why moderation works for some and not for
others. How hypnotherapy is helping
rewire addictive behaviors, the science and stigma behind new
recovery tools. The surprising power of
(00:41):
journaling and self discovery. Facing fear, breaking old
patterns, and learning to live intentionally.
Listen, learn and discover a newapproach to changing your
relationship with alcohol. Hello, Sylvia, thank you.
(01:12):
Thank you so much for coming on.I really appreciate it.
We had a really good conversation before this and I'm
very interested in what you do and what your team does with
regards to, you know, not necessary.
When I started this podcast, alcohol moderation was not an
option for me because I tried. I've tried many times and I know
a lot of people that have tried and it just doesn't work for me.
(01:34):
But I'm, I'm starting to realizethat as I get on this journey
more and talk to more people that for one, the world doesn't
revolve around me and not everybody feels and thinks the
same way I do. But there's different paths up
to recovery Mountain, right? And one of the paths is through
moderation and through journaling and hypnotherapy,
which I'm excited to get into today with you.
(01:57):
But why don't you tell us a little bit about your story,
Sylvia, and how you came into this field and what you guys do?
So I'm a clinical psychologist. I love learning about mental
health and how different behaviours affect each person.
And it's, it's a very interesting world for me, like a
very interesting field. I'm very passionate about it,
(02:19):
and I started working a little bit helping people understand
how to have a better relationship with alcohol about
a year and a half ago. And it was when I realized that
I had a lot of knowledge becauseI haven't drunk in around six
years. I don't have a set date because
(02:39):
it was very organic for me. It was six years, six years, six
years and a half ago and I learned a lot during this time
that I haven't drunk. So I decided to combine my
knowledge in psychology, mental health and all that with my
knowledge in the field of livinglife without drinking.
(03:00):
I'm, I never had an addiction. I never had a dependency on
alcohol. But it's true that I started
drinking because everybody else around me started drinking and I
thought that it was just what I had to do, what everybody does,
right. So I realised that I was forcing
something that was not working for me because my body was just
(03:22):
reacting very, very poorly to it.
I had, I got infection dealing to that and like after years of
using alcohol, my body was telling me signs of this is not
working for you, but I just keptignoring it because everybody
else was drinking, right. So what was I supposed to do?
I, I never questioned it. And when I finally questioned it
(03:46):
and I was like, OK, this is not for me.
This is not how I'm supposed to live life.
I realised that I was just like completely avoiding what my body
was telling me and what my mind was telling me.
And it's very, very powerful to learn what your body is telling
you and to live alive more aligned with what you actually
(04:08):
want to do. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.
And you know, the first step in that is, is noticing what your
body is telling you, right? That's that took me a long time
to fathom just because I was so preoccupied with other things.
Right. You know, we're having an
interesting conversation off airabout you live in, in Barcelona
or you're near Barcelona in Spain.
(04:30):
And I thought it was really funny because I didn't realize
this until I came into recovery,that I used to think that
everybody partied, everybody diddrugs.
It was everywhere. It's just what people did.
Like you said, right? I, I, I'm, I'm going to do it
just because other people are doing it.
I want to fit in. You were telling me how you
don't see any drugs and you don't, you know, you don't see
that lifestyle because you're not in it.
(04:51):
And I just, I always think that's interesting because I
have the same experience now living in downtown Toronto.
You know, there's a lot of drugsand, and a lot of places and
parties that I just, I'm not exposed to anymore.
Like what a, what a miracle. You know, you stop drinking and
you find this, stop drinking andstop using drugs and you find
this community of people that are just living a different
lifestyle. And I can tell you, I haven't
(05:12):
seen drugs in quite a while now,right?
I always find that interesting. So definitely.
So you're the, you know, you work with the Unconscious
Moderation app, which is available on the iPhone and Play
Store. Why don't you tell us a little
bit about what inspired the creation of the Unconscious
Moderation app? And yeah, cool.
(05:35):
It was the IT was created because, well, alcohol is
everywhere. We were talking about drugs and
everything and drugs because they're not legal, at least in
many, many countries in the world.
Drugs are not legal, but you don't really see them as easily
as you see alcohol. But alcohol is everywhere is
(05:57):
even in workplaces, like people drink to seal deal some
sometimes, you know? So it's just amazing to think
that something that is killing us is so, so normalized and
everybody is just like even judging you when you're not
drinking, right? So it was a group of a bit of
(06:22):
like there's psychologists, there's different people that
were starting to well, realize that.
And little by little more peopleadded on that on that group
where we realized, OK, we need to target this, but there's
many, many programs out there. But still, this is a big issue
that people don't really know how to address, right?
(06:46):
Because yes, less people are drinking right now.
And if you look at younger generations, they are not
jumping in like for example, as I said before, you just do it
because everybody else does. Now there's more and more people
that actually question it and decide not to drink.
But of course that's happening now with younger generations.
I'm in my late 20s and I've had a different, a very different
(07:09):
upbringing, right? So when we, when we wanted to
target like, OK, how can we helppeople do it?
We had a look at different programs and then we realized
that hymnotherapy had been used for many, many different
addictions, many different conditions.
Like it doesn't need to be an addiction.
It could be like IBS, for example, for gut issues and to
(07:33):
treat anxiety in, in other things in general.
And it had been proven very, very effective in all these
different aspects, right? So we were like, OK, we cannot
find a programme that targets orthat helps people rewire their
relationship with alcohol with using hemotherapy, right.
(07:53):
So we implemented it and then wecombined the conscious work
because hemotherapy, it touches the unconscious mind, but then
we wanted to also work with the conscious mind.
So that's why we also added journaling and other tools to
complement it. And it's been proven that well,
very effective. And obviously the app has was
(08:15):
released only like 6 months ago.So we haven't seen long term
results yet. But our users have expressed it,
they're very, very happy with it.
And they they actually notice the the changes and they notice
that it works. That's amazing.
Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate that
because not everybody that I've come into contact to, with in
(08:39):
addiction and alcoholism is willing to go to, to meetings or
to try, they have a bad experience with, with, you know,
social groups or, or rehab centers.
There's, there's a bit of a stigma around it for some
people. And so I love apps.
I've I've always loved apps. I think there's a lot of very
useful apps out there. And this is, you know, it's just
(09:01):
a great way for people to kind of get involved without that big
step into an uncomfortable position.
What, what makes unconscious minds approach different from
other moderation? I mean, you mentioned the
hypnotherapy, but I, I started using the app and it was very
user friendly. You know, it asked a bunch of
(09:21):
questions and got some background, but what kind of
makes it different that you, that you think?
What makes it stand out? I think well, we haven't found
any other programs that use human therapy.
And also the, the journaling that we use is very, it's very
targeted to complement the, the journey, right.
Whereas we've seen other programs that they do use
(09:43):
journaling, but it's more generic when we start it.
We, we, we had generic questionsin journaling.
But now little by little, we're learning, we're researching more
and then we're making it more specific to help people actually
see better results, right? So I believe that with this
(10:05):
unconscious work with hemotherapy that makes our
program, different people see results a bit faster.
Again, there are many, many different things out there, many
tools that are effective and have been proven effective.
But I think that giving even more options to people is very
helpful because what might work for me might not work for you.
(10:27):
So might, maybe hemotherapy works for me, but might not work
for you, right. So given the possibilities to
people for people to try in different things, I think it's
very, very powerful and very helpful for people to to try out
new things. And this is definitely a new
thing and hymnotherapy in treating alcohol consumption.
(10:50):
And we also don't Geminis or blame people that decide to
moderate instead of quitting completely because we've seen
that many programs out there play with that blame and make
you feel bad if you have a relapse or if you have one drink
(11:11):
one day. And we understand that this is
not a linear, linear process. It's not as easy as just like
deciding something and changing it and that's it.
You are going to have falls, you're going to have obstacles
in your way and that is completely fine.
It's part of the process. And actually, a lot of people
say that it's been proven that when you are implementing a new
(11:36):
habit or you're quitting A substance, you have withdrawal
symptoms. And then you work through these
and then they get better. And then at one point they get
worse and you're like, Oh my God, they are so, so strong.
But it's like the last push of those withdrawal symptoms.
And then when you cross that path that that wall or that
(11:56):
obstacle, then you're going to feel like, OK, those withdrawal
symptoms have just calmed down and they lose their power a lot.
So hypnotherapy just helps people go through this journey
with a bit more of a calm state because obviously these
withdrawal symptoms can trigger a lot of anxiety as well and a
(12:21):
lot of like nervousness. So hypnotherapy helps you be a
bit more calmed down. And those withdrawal symptoms
also have less power, so they are not as well as strong and as
well you when you feel them, youneed to actually act on them
because they're painful even. But hemorotherapy helps you just
(12:45):
reduce the the power of the symptoms so they're actually
more manageable. Yeah, I I can agree with that
for sure. You know, as you were talking, I
was thinking about the the mental state always precedes the
first relapse for me, right? And I love what you said about
sometimes you just need to like hold on to the steering wheel
(13:05):
and get through that last push, right?
I do understand too that, you know, for those listening, there
is a medical component for a lotof people that are drinking a
lot and that's important too. And your app actually does go
through that, right? Like it does have those
disclaimers. And, you know, it's not always
safe for people to detox on certain substances, especially
alcohol, without medical assistance and supervision.
(13:26):
So I, I want to state that that that's important as well.
You know, I want to talk about this, this idea of fear because
I think fear is the big motivator behind everything in
my life. Every time I relapsed, there was
some kind of fear down. And you know, this latest one
that I went through, there was this fear of I, I called it
boredom at the time because I didn't understand that that
(13:49):
boredom is actually fear hiding itself.
And most emotions are, are fear,right?
You know, I got to a point whereI was kind of sitting in my car
and life was just kind of ordinarily going along.
You know, there was nothing exciting, nothing too sad.
And I, I came to this realization that I crave chaos
(14:10):
to kind of distract myself from this fear and this hating myself
and this uncomfortability with where I'm at.
And I should be here. I should be doing this right.
And so I kind of, I came to the conclusion that it, it was just
this fear of, Oh my God, is thismy life now?
You know, am I going to just go on the rest of my life without
any fun, any excitement? And I found that, no, that's not
(14:33):
true. If I had just pushed through
that, that, that last little bit, that last, you know,
obstacle, as you say, and reached out for help and, and
did something about it instead of did things my way, I think I
would have been OK. But to your point, I needed to
go through that again to hit another emotional and spiritual
bottom, right? Like I needed to hit another
(14:54):
bottom where I was like, OK, this recovery thing has to be my
life today. It has to be it.
It's not a hobby for me. And this is my story.
I can't moderate. I can't do any of these things.
I need to remain completely abstinent and I need to stay
connected to people and to my myhigher power, my God.
Right? So this idea of fear, like what?
(15:16):
Why do you think fear of change is so powerful and even though
we know deep down that it can help us?
So it's very powerful because wehave internal patterns that keep
us quote, UN quote, safe, which maybe they're not keeping us
(15:36):
safe, but our body, our mind thinks that we are being
protected, right? Because when we were growing up,
those type of behaviours actually kept us safe because of
the situation that we were in, right?
So we learn these patterns that might not be safe for an adult
person and they bring you to do different things and for
(15:59):
example, consuming alcohol, drugs or scrolling on TikTok or
watching Netflix or many, many different things, right?
Because sitting down with our emotions, understanding where
everything comes from can be very, very painful and scary as
(16:20):
well. Because then sometimes it's
easier to say, OK, I don't know anything, then I'm not
addressing anything, right? But actually that's what gets
you stuck in the same place without moving.
And I think that, as you said, that fear paralyzes you.
I think it paralyzes everyone. We have this fear of missing out
(16:43):
in general, of not doing what we're expected to do, of not
achieving what we are expected to achieve, of not have a good,
not having a good life, not doing this, not doing that.
And the pressure is just so, so,so strong that I think that
pressure, that social pressure that we that we have from
(17:04):
everyone around us, but also from social media.
There's a lot coming from there that we constantly see people
having their best lives. And then you compare your life
and you, then you're like, my life is very blunt.
It's very boring, right? Because look at these people
having the best lives ever. So I think there's so many
things that actually interfere in that pressure.
(17:27):
And then that pressure creates that fear of am I living my life
correctly? So when that fear is very, very
strong, it just paralyzes you and you are not able to do
anything about it because it's so strong that you don't know
where to start. And there's also that.
So there's that. And then there's the what I was
talking about before the the patterns and all that.
(17:49):
We feel like that what we've been doing till now is, is our
safe space or is it's our normality, right?
It's something that we can control.
And when we start creating shifts or having new habits or
stop or reducing or completely stopping to have some, some
(18:11):
behaviors or some drugs or alcohol or like other
substances, we don't know what'scoming on the other side.
We don't understand, like our mind cannot understand that it
can be actually better. We are stuck in this, OK, I
don't know what's going on or what's going to happen in, I
(18:32):
don't know, six months, a year, five years from now.
But I know what's happening right now and I know that the
situation right now, I can control it.
But again, the situation right now can be absolutely destroying
you. But you have that feeling of
control. And again, we are always looking
(18:53):
for things that we can control. We hate as humans uncertainty
and things that we cannot control and they are out of our
decision. And again, we like in our lives,
there's so little that we can actually control.
We think that we have more toolsthan we actually have.
Life just goes on, right? Then you have to adapt to it and
(19:17):
understand that life changes constantly.
We, we cannot stay in the same state only because of fear,
because eventually what you're not changing, you're choosing,
you're actually choosing not to change.
So actually you're actually likelittle by little, your life will
change and then you will actually adapt those behaviors
(19:41):
to those changes, right. So getting stuck into that, I
don't want to change. I just want my life to be
exactly how it is. It's actually not going to
happen because it cannot happen.Life is changing constantly.
Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I'm happy you mentioned the the
(20:01):
illusion of control because you know, as it says, as I've heard
so many times before. The, the, the great illusion
that I can drink like other people, you know, I'll try that
a million times till Sunday until I can figure it out.
Because you're right. It's like there's so much in the
world I can't control. What do you mean I can't control
(20:21):
my drinking? And the way I feel like there's
already all this other stuff andthen I come home and I have to
feel this way. Like that's so uncomfortable to
me, right? I, I think that's, that's
especially true. And I've, I've proven that in my
life so many times, right? I'm, I'm really interested in
this hypnotherapy process. Can you kind of explain a little
bit more what, what it is and like what the app kind of does?
(20:44):
What does it look like? So in the app, we do 15 minutes
a day of hymnotherapy. It's an audio that you just put
some headphones on and you listen to and then so it's 30
minutes a day and 15 minutes of hymnotherapy and then 15 minutes
of conscious work. That hymnotherapy, it's very
similar to a relaxation or meditation.
(21:07):
And a lot of people have actually listened to those
before because they're very, very, very famous and very
common for people to actually listen to.
So it's not that weird or that different from all the things
that people have tried. And I actually get this asked a
lot like is it powerful? Is it, is it like in a bad way?
(21:30):
Is it dangerous? Is are there any side effects to
hymnotherapy? Because we've seen hypnosis in
movies and in theaters. And obviously that was just for
the show, right? It's not how it works in in
therapy or in like a clinical like area, right field.
So basically what that audio is is you put those headphones in
(21:54):
and then you get into a deep state of relaxation where all
your worries and all that conscious noise just dials down
its intensity. But you are still conscious.
You're still aware of everythingthat's happening, which is
something that a lot of people feel like, is it going to knock
me out and then I'm not going tobe able to remember what
happened? No, you are conscious all the
(22:16):
time and you understand and listen to everything.
But basically the difference between hymnotherapy and
meditation of relaxation is thathymnotherapy opens your mind to
suggestions, right? So, for example, a lot of people
have a drink when they're stressed.
(22:37):
It's a very, very common thing to say, OK, I've had a very
stressful day at work and my mind just automatically thinks
of having a glass of wine or twoor a whole bottle.
It really depends on the person.So that connection between
stress and alcohol is pretty much automatic.
And your mind or all of our minds have so many things to do
(23:00):
in our bodies, like we, they need to keep us alive, right?
And there's so many things that we do that our body does that we
don't think about, like breathing, like every internal
organ has its own thing to do and we don't realize, we don't
think, we don't think about it, right?
So the brains, our brains want to optimize energy so they can
(23:24):
actually save part of that energy to send to those organs,
right? So when we do something
repeatedly, like for example, I'm stressed, then I drink a
glass of wine, it's automatic. Like the the brain creates a
path between neurons, between brain cells that is very
reinforced because the brain doesn't understand the
(23:45):
difference between what's good for you, what's bad for you.
It only understands the difference between something
that you do very frequently and something that you don't do
frequently. So when it reinforces that path
between neurons, that is a connection that becomes
automatic. So every time that you're going
to be stressed, you're going to be thinking of alcohol straight
away because that is a path thatis very, very reinforced, right?
(24:07):
So what immunotherapy does is open the mind to different paths
between neurons. So little by little, that path
that was created that I'm stressed, then I'm going to have
a glass of wine loses its power.And then all the paths, all the
alternative paths can have more and more power little by little,
right? So in the end, when you're
(24:29):
stressed, you're going to see many options.
Instead of just seeing one like got that glass of wine, you're
going to see options like calling a friend or going for a
walk or baking a cake or doing anything you want and anything
that you enjoy doing because your mind broadens and sees more
(24:50):
than actually alcohol as the only solution.
So that's why, and that's why it's very, it's very helpful
because people see this shift quite fast.
Obviously you're not going to see it on the first day, but
after 10 days, people start seeing that shift in that those,
well, those options, right? And it's easier for them to
(25:12):
actually choose something else rather than alcohol.
Yeah, wow, I love that. It's it's kind of like this knee
jerk reaction that I'm stressed.I'm going to drink it.
It's so true. You don't even think about it.
And and hence the unconscious part of of the brain.
And so it's just slowly rewiringthese pathways.
(25:33):
I I think that that you explained that very well.
Thank you. This, this kind of area of, of
therapy is not, it's not studiedentirely yet, right?
So we don't really know. There's not a lot of science
behind it. There's not a lot of data in
regards to hypnotherapy and alcohol.
But you were mentioning to me that there there is some science
(25:54):
out there right now. So there's, it's true that
there's not a lot of studies that have actually linked
hypnotherapy with treating alcohol like alcoholism or
helping people reduce the alcohol intake.
But chemotherapy has been linkedto many addiction recovery like
(26:17):
pathways or for treating other, other symptoms like for example
anxiety, as I was saying before,like anxiety IBS, it was very,
very common to treat like tobacco addiction some years
ago. So even though there's not many
data or the, there's some data that is coming out now, like
(26:39):
some studies that are coming outnow between like showing the
link between hymnotherapy and alcoholism, the the studies that
show the, the success in hymnotherapy are more like
considering addictions in general.
But in the end, of course, each drug or each substance that you
(27:01):
take or each behaviour that you do is different, but your brain
sort of reacts in a very similarway.
So what works for one will work for the other.
Generally, like something like hypnotherapy will work for both
because your brain sort of gets attached to that.
And maybe I like, for example, me as a person that drinks
(27:22):
frequently when I'm stressed, asI said before the example that
I'm saying that I was saying before, right when I'm stressed,
I drink. But then maybe you when you're
stressed, you gamble or when you're stressed you smoke.
So those connections that I was talking about before are
different in each person. They have a different behaviour,
a different consequence, but they all come from a very
(27:45):
similar place. So that's why when when you
search about like immunotherapy and how can it help, it can help
different addictions. There's so many studies in many,
many different addictions and there's not many in alcoholism,
but I found a study done in Norway that showed that people
(28:05):
that their hypnotherapy sessionsone like when treating
alcoholism one year after and 80% of them had been completely
abstinent for that whole year. So 80% is a very, very large
number of people, right? So I think it's, it's very
effective and it can be very, very helpful.
(28:27):
And then in, in different addictions in general or other
behaviours, it's been proven, obviously it's very, very broad,
but between 50% and 80% of of like abstinence or change in
behavior or all that as well. So I think it's a very, very
powerful tool that it's worth considering.
(28:49):
Yeah, that's, that's a great number.
I mean, you know, having been totreatment, they always tell us
that there's this kind of standing statistic of, you know,
one in 10 people will will die from the, or will make it,
sorry, one in 10 people will, will make it from this, from
this disease. There's like a 10% chance,
right? So I mean, that's, that's really
(29:10):
promising. I journaling is a big part of my
recovery. And I never really wanted to do
it. It wasn't one of those things
where I was like, you know, I'm going to journal every day.
Most things that I practice in my life today to recover are
something that came from somebody before me, right?
Something that was recommended to me either by a therapist or
(29:31):
by a fellow alcoholic and addict.
And so for me, what I found is, you know, I had a hard time
starting like you, you mentionedbefore, there's this like,
there's this hurdle. It's like, and I could say the
same thing about going to the gym, right?
Or doing anything healthy. I just sometimes I just need to
get there because there's this fear of leaving my comfortable
(29:51):
home and going into this uncomfortable state, right?
And I find that that happened with journaling too.
It's like, well, where do I start?
I don't know what to do what, what kind of, you know, what's
the point? So where do you kind of tell
people to start? Where does the app prompt you?
How does it prompt you? So the, the way that we work
with journaling in the app is tocompliment that hymnotherapy
(30:13):
part that I was talking about. And before the, the hymnotherapy
that we offered was general, which is still helpful, but it
was more general like, so peoplecould understand themselves.
Like for example, what do you dowhen you're angry or how do you
deal with this type of situation?
Or what are three things that you're grateful for today,
(30:35):
right? And different things like that,
which again, many, many programsthat they do these questions or
ask these questions to to their users.
And it works like they're very effective, but we wanted to make
it more more targeted to actually helping the people
understand themselves better andlearning about their patterns.
(30:55):
Because when you know about yourpattern, you're like 50% there.
Like you have gained so much. Once you know what's going on,
your, your halfway of the path is done.
Like what When you know it and accept it, because knowing and
accepting it can not come together sometimes because some
people know it, but then they don't, they don't accept it as
(31:18):
part of their reality. Right.
So what what we do with, with our journaling is we, we take
people into like a path of imagination, like different
adventures that we call it. And then they, we put them into
a different situation, like situations obviously all
(31:38):
imaginary that they have to think of how they would react,
what would they do and differentthings.
And all these situations later on have or they make sense
because in the end they will learn about their patterns.
They will learn about how they make decisions, why they choose
(31:59):
certain things. Because each week it's sort of
it's like a different adventure.And at the end of the week you
understand a bit a little bit more why you chose where you
chose. And there's an explanation of
everything. So again, there's no right or
wrong because everyone chooses their own thing, right?
And, and everything is, is, well, everything is good.
(32:19):
You don't need to be thinking, OK, I should choose this, but my
mind is telling me to choose theother thing, right?
No, everything is fine, everything is good.
You just choose whatever your mind tells you to do, right.
And again, when you learn about these patterns and how you how
you process and all that emotionand, and what triggers different
(32:40):
things, then you can actually start doing those changes.
Because when once you know it, knowledge is power.
Once you know it, then you can actually address it.
You cannot address what you don't know.
I, I couldn't agree more. And you know, I one thing that I
learned from journaling and this, this took some time,
right? It didn't happen right away, but
(33:01):
I was in treatment this last time and I just journaled every
day because they told me to. And just whatever was on my
mind, I came to this, this conclusion and it was pretty
revolution like revelatory for me.
It was a pretty profound moment.And this has happened a few
times where I've come, I came tothis realization that, you know,
what I told you about the chaos thing, I came to that
realization in journaling, right, that I crave this kind of
(33:23):
chaotic state in my life with drugs and alcohol to escape
feeling me. And, and, you know, having to
look at myself in the mirror and, and atone for all the kind
of bad things that I did, right,get through this guilt and shame
was the underlying feeling. You know, I felt bad about all
the people I hurt, felt bad about hurting myself.
I felt bad about relapsing aftereight years clean and sober.
(33:45):
And so journaling, I was able toforgive myself for that, but I
also was able to realize why I choose to pick up drugs and
alcohol. And it was because I don't like
this kind of mundane state. I, I, I need this sort of up and
down crazy life to feel OK in myown skin.
And then the other thing too that I was going to mention that
I noticed too was so in my active addiction, I like to hang
(34:09):
out with. And I've heard that this, this
is pretty universal with people like me.
We kind of choose these. I hate using this, this term,
But you know, in one of the literatures that I read it, it
calls it lower companions, right?
These these sort of people that are using more than I am.
(34:29):
They're, they're partying harderthan I am.
They're using harder drugs than I am.
They're drinking more than I am.And I, I always like to hang out
with these people, I've realizedbecause I feel better about
myself, right? And I'm, well, I'm at least I'm
not doing heroin, or at least I'm not drinking, you know, 10
bottles a day. I'm not that bad.
(34:50):
You know, it's OK, buddy. Like you're, you're not that
bad. You can get.
And it was just this justification to kind of keep
going and live the life that I was living.
Or they're stealing way more than I am.
So at least I'm not stealing from the government, right?
And I came to those conclusions all through journaling.
And it was a pretty, you know, euphoric Eureka moment for me.
And that's why I continued to doit today.
(35:10):
And, and again, I don't have these moments every day where
I'm like, Oh my God, it all makes sense now.
Like that's not the case, right?But through time and effort, I
have come to these realizations.And it's a beautiful thing
because now, like you said, I, I've, I'm 50% of the way there.
I've realized it. Well, what are you going to do
about it, right? Just because you realize
something doesn't mean it's going to change.
I have to do something about it.So when I go to the state of
(35:31):
boredom or I'm not enough, life's not enough.
I should be making more money. I should be more successful.
I should be helping more people.I should be more sober even I
should have more clean time, right?
I, I, I have these real, these thoughts that now I can kind of
say to myself, oh, I'm doing that thing again.
And I just kind of laugh about it.
I'm like, I'm doing that. My brain is doing that thing
(35:52):
again where it wants to be comfortable and it doesn't want
to embrace pain, right? So I can just embrace the pain
now and be like, oh, yeah, it's going to be OK, you're going to
get through this. And then I always say is like,
just get through the day, just get through the hour.
And like you said, it's just getting through those hurdles
because that delayed gratification over the instant
gratification is so much better in my experience, right?
(36:14):
That just get through today because tomorrow will be
different and it's always true. Tomorrow will be different.
Just get to bed sober, clean, you know, and, and tomorrow will
be different. Yeah.
And what I always like to say isthat we think that we see the
world objectively, like life is as it is, right?
And that is completely wrong. We don't see the world as it is.
(36:35):
We see the world as we are and as we see.
So if you surround yourself by people that do more drugs than
you or drink more than you, thenyou have that sense of, OK, I'm
not as bad as them, so I am OK, right.
But then you're comparing yourself to something that you
see very, very frequently. So your mind understands that
that is your normality quote. UN quote, right, Your baseline,
(36:59):
yeah. Exactly.
But if you lived a different life and then you don't see
those people, then you would be like, your comparison would be
like, you are the one that is having the most drugs compared
to these, these group of people,right?
Like these people. So it is all about perspective
and it's all about what you see and what you are exposed to.
(37:20):
So I think that when people understand that and the
subjectivity of the way that we live the world in our lives,
it's, I think it, it's somethingclicks.
At least it, it clicked for me because then I was like, OK,
there's no right or wrong. Like it's not that static right?
Like this is right. This is wrong.
(37:41):
Exactly. It's not.
There's so, so many colours in between and, and maybe what
might be right for me might not be right for another person.
So I have to choose what's rightfor me and to know that I have
to know myself and I have to self reflect and take my time to
sit down and understand where myemotions are coming from and
what I do to, to tackle them andto understand them.
(38:05):
Because to numb the emotions. And it doesn't need to be with
like alcohol or drugs or other substances or like behaviors
like gambling and stuff like that.
A lot of people do it with, for example, chocolate, which is
obviously very accessible in anysupermarket or with, as I was
saying before scrolling on social media.
(38:25):
And then we see people that are using their phones for 10 hours
a day and that is a lot, right? So everyone chooses their
behaviour differently or everyone has their escape, a
different escape, right? And understanding why you're
doing that and what triggers that moment of or that need of
escaping is, as you said before,is is it's a, it's a Eureka
(38:48):
moment because then you can actually target that and work on
that. I love that you.
Are who you surround yourself with, right?
And I try to live by that today.You know, my friend group in my
circle today are it doesn't matter what they have a material
wise. I look for people that are
(39:09):
working on themselves everyday, you know, people that are
constantly doing this inner work.
That's those are the people I want to be around because that's
what I need to do instead of looking externally.
I need a car, I need a boat, I need a new, you know, job.
I, I have to look internally and, and find the kind of joy
and peace that way. I love that it's so true.
(39:33):
Relapse is unfortunately a part of recovery.
It's been in a part of my life, you know, slips relapse.
I wanna, you know, say I, I learned the difference between a
slip and a relapse. A slip is kind of when you're,
you have like that one drink or that one pill or that one line
and you catch it right away and you jump back into recovery,
right? The relapse is when you kind of
(39:54):
fully indulge and I, I never, I don't, I, I don't think I ever
really had many slips. Mine were full blown relapses
because I never caught them and corrected them and I, and I was
too far gone right. This last time it took me 4
months to try and get back in and those were four months of
hell. You know, it's a progressive
disease. It always gets worse for me.
(40:14):
I always pick up where I left off and then it just gets way
worse. I'm doing new drugs, I'm hanging
out with, you know, people I shouldn't be hanging out with.
I'm going to nightclubs and barsthat I have no business being
being at. How does the app kind of help
users keep going if they have a slip?
So as I was saying before. We never blame anybody.
We never demonize alcohol or anyother substance.
(40:36):
We always understand that it's part of the process and we
encourage people to keep going. It's OK if you have a slip, it's
OK if you have a drink or like this app is targeted in alcohol,
but it's OK if you have a a slipwith any other substance or
behavior. It's OK if you drink because
(40:56):
it's part of the process. You're going to have your ups
and downs and understanding themand giving space to them is also
part of, of your growth and the,the journey.
Because it cannot be as as easy as just like quitting or
deciding to reduce alcohol and never feeling that craving or
that, that need to have slip or worse, right at going deeper
(41:21):
into it. So, so the way that we do it is
again, reinforcing that they're doing a great job.
Because if the, the program is, is 90 days long, but the first
30 days is completely like no alcohol at all.
But if you have alcohol during those 30 days, we say that's
completely fine. Keep going because by the by day
(41:42):
30 you will have drunk way less than what you drank the month
before. Because if you had 1234 drinks
in this month compared to the month before where maybe you had
20 or 15 or even like 10, that is progress.
That is something that is changing in your mind.
(42:04):
You are actually shifting and ifyou keep working on it, you are
going to and actually get somewhere, right?
If you give up when you have onedrink, then you're not doing any
progress, right? So that's why we, we're very
open to people having these moments.
Of course, the the less you drink, the better, right?
(42:26):
But we're never going to blame anybody or make anybody feel
like they're failed when when they had one drink when maybe
they could not, like they could not have like give the space to
that urge or that crazy that they were having, right?
Because sometimes, as I said before, they're very powerful
(42:48):
and again during, so the, the, the programme is 90 days and
some people choose to, to not drink during all those 90 days.
So the programme sort of looks the same all those three months.
But then on day 30, they can choose if they want to moderate
as well. So we give tools to people so
they can understand again, what triggers the urge to drink when
(43:11):
like they're emotional straight when they drink.
And they, we also keep like a, like a drink tracker so they can
be very aware of the amount of alcohol that they have or that
they want to have, right? So they again, knowledge is
power. So when you know your what, like
the why, when you know your triggers, your triggers, when
(43:33):
you know your, the, your emotional state and when you
know all these things, then you can actually understand better
your, you use of alcohol and yourself.
So then you can actually create change, right?
But as, as I always say, moderation is way more difficult
than going completely dry. I I always think that
(43:55):
moderating, when you've had, when you've used alcohol more,
when you go to moderating, you always have to be very on top of
it and you always have to reviseyourself.
It's stressful. Yeah, yeah.
Because I always tell. People like, I don't know how
you do it because for me it's easy.
It's no alcohol, OK, it's out ofthe picture.
And when you don't have the option, it's your mental load.
(44:18):
Just like calms down, it reducesby half.
But then when someone is choosing to moderate, they
always need to be on top of whatthey're doing.
Am I drinking today? Am I not going to drink today?
Why am I drinking today? How many drinks would I have?
And you always have to be like, balancing it.
Oh yeah. It's so true.
Or, or I'm going to say I have a, you know, I have a social
(44:40):
engagement tonight, so I'm goingto save my 2 drinks for tonight.
I just got to get through to that, you know, that social
party and then and then you have3 and you're like, Oh, I was
only supposed to have two. And it's so true.
It's so much easier just to callit off completely.
I love that 30 day idea too, because I'm just thinking about
that like if you can do, if you can control your drinking and 30
days is will tell you a lot about yourself a lot.
(45:02):
If you try to, if you focus on or drinking in 30 days, you're
going to learn a lot about yourself, right?
Wow, I didn't realize that I hadone after work every day.
You know, I didn't realize that I had five before noon even I
didn't even realize, you know, And so I, I love that.
I think 30 days is a really goodindicator of, hey, maybe I want
to stop doing this all together,or maybe I can control it and
(45:25):
moderate that. So it's a it's a great test, you
know, living. I want to talk about living
intentionally. What you know, what does living
intentionally mean to you Today for me is.
Understanding what I want to do with my life and how I want to
(45:46):
spend the time that I'm in this earth, right?
Because I feel like everyone lives on autopilot and we don't,
we don't think that we're going to die someday, but the truth is
we don't even know if we're going to be here tomorrow,
right? So I, I'm, I'm very like, I
always go back to living in autopilot and I keep bringing
(46:08):
myself back to this thought of no, OK, how do you want to live
life? What do you want to spend time
doing and what you don't want tospend time doing?
Because sometimes I've found myself forcing myself to do
stuff that I didn't want to do or in situations where I didn't
want to be in or stay in longer somewhere where I was, I would
(46:31):
have been better just leaving, Idon't know, 3 hours before I
left, right? So to do that, of course, it's I
need to revise myself constantlyand understand where my
priorities are at the moment. Because obviously these
priorities change the, the olderthat I get, right?
So for me, living intentionally is given space to understand how
(46:57):
I want to spend my time, my limited time on Earth.
Yeah, time is is the most valuable.
Thing, you know, I always say that and it, it, it really is
the only thing that we got and the only thing that could be
taken away in, in a moment. You know, we never know.
That's why this one day at a time thing is so powerful.
It's like, I don't know if I'm going to be here tomorrow, like
you said, So how am I going to live my best life today?
(47:19):
And my, my best life is different than your best life is
different than my wife's best life.
It's it's different for everybody.
And so that's why it's importantto do this self discovery.
Sylvia, if there's, you know, there's someone out there
listening that doesn't know if they want to stop, but their,
their life is they're starting to have consequences as a result
of drinking, right? Losing the job, losing
(47:40):
relationships for me, you know, losing my sanity, right?
Like losing my goals, my aspirations, all these things
were just crumbling in on me. Finances were through the roof.
What's one small thing that anybody can do today?
Something. That is accessible.
(48:01):
Maybe not easy, but accessible. Very accessible is when you're
going to pour yourself a drink or when you're going to ask like
you're going to a bar to ask foranother drink or when you're in
a situation where you're actually going to have another
glass of wine or another bee or another whatever you're having.
Ask yourself like stop and ask yourself, why do I actually want
(48:25):
this? Or is it because I'm stressed?
Is it because I am before pre pressure because I'm everyone
else around me is drunk? Or is it because I am trying to
numb something that is worrying me?
Right. And I said that it's accessible,
but not easy because it's sometimes it's very, very
painful to understand where all where this is coming from,
(48:49):
right. But I think that when people
understand their whys, again, they can actually start shifting
their their behaviours, right and and understanding more how
they wanna live life. So for me, the first step is
always stopping and understanding where this is
coming from. And again, you might not know
(49:09):
the first, I don't know, 5-10 times you might not know because
if you have never taken the timeto understand yourself, it's
something very new, right? So given the time to work on, it
will grow, will come with time, but you actually need to
understand or like ask yourself why frequently.
(49:29):
So then you can actually get to a response that can actually
help you. I love that, you know, I always.
Ask myself, what is my motive here?
You know, what is my motive? What, what am I trying to
achieve? Am I trying to fit in like you
said? Or can I actually just not stop
because of sad emotion and I'm stressed?
I think that that's a very practical tip that anybody can
(49:54):
try. And it's, it's not easy, like
you said, because when you're init, sometimes what's the point?
But if you build that muscle over time, it's like going to
the gym, you know, it's, it's really, you're going to suck at
first at when you're lifting weights, anything new, right?
Paddle boarding was one for me. I got into paddle boarding and
you know, I sucked at first, butI over time you build that
muscle, You keep doing it over and over again.
(50:14):
And then hopefully you come to apoint of realization where
you're this isn't serving me, You know, this isn't benefiting
me. Maybe I can do something else
instead, like go for a walk or, or try a new hobby or connect
with a friend. Like you said, pick up the
phone. Sylvia.
I really sorry and definitely. The last thing I was going to
say is, and sometimes we think that the reason behind our urge
(50:38):
to drink is very, very deep, like for example, that emotional
or trying to fit in and all this.
But I realized, obviously duringthese these six years that I've
been navigating this, I realizedthat sometimes now that, for
example, we're approaching a hot, like hot summer days and
all that, I remember I just was craving something refreshing.
(50:58):
So I would be like, I really crave like a fresh, a refreshing
cocktail or like a cold bee or something like that.
And then I was like, what if I just have the like, I don't
know, something different that is also refreshing.
And then I realized that that's what I was craving.
I was craving that nice drink that was a bit like, I don't
know, a bit different from wateror like a soda, but would
(51:19):
actually give me that. I don't know that reflect
freshness right in a, in a hot summer day.
So it doesn't need to be a very deep reasoning.
It can be as easy as you just want something fresh or you just
want something sweet or any anything like that.
So sometimes you don't need to go that deep.
But the more you ask yourself why, the more reasons you'll
(51:41):
see, and then the the more you understand what triggers those
urges, right? That's a great point.
That is a. Phenomenal point I come to a
realization too that yeah, I I just like soda water, you know
this sparkling water that that often times I'm just thirsty and
I just want, you know, a refreshing drink.
(52:02):
I I love that it's so true. Sylvia, thank you so much for
your time. Time is a valuable thing.
I think what you're doing is, isa beautiful, an important
journey. You know, you've, you've given
us a lot of practical, helpful tips that we can implement in
our lives and where can we find you and where can we find the
app? So the app.
(52:23):
If people search unconscious moderation in App Store or in
Google Play, they will find it. And if they have more questions
about how the program works, who's behind it and all this, I
always suggest having a look at the website, which is UM dot
app. So UM dot APP, everything is
explained there. There's so much information that
(52:44):
is very, very relevant. And if anybody has any question
that is not responded in the in the website, there's also a
contact form that they can send any questions that they have or
we'll be happy to respond. We're also on on social media
like Instagram. So yeah, I encourage everyone to
just feel free and have a look. Love it.
Thank you so much. I appreciate your your words of,
(53:08):
you know, experience, strength and hope and there is another
solution. You know there is another way.
So thank you for what you do anduntil next time, I appreciate
you. Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.
(53:30):
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
struggling with addiction, please consult the licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional.
You are no longer alone.
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