June 27, 2025 • 43 mins
Todays Guest is, Dr. Malasri “Mala” Chaudhery-Malgeri
Join Anthony Degasperis and Dr. Mala, Chief Clinical Officer at Recovery.com, for an honest and powerful conversation about trauma, addiction recovery, and the importance of integrative healing. Dr. Mala shares her personal journey overcoming childhood trauma, intimate partner violence, and her passion for advancing holistic recovery programs.
Discover insights into mental health stigma, PTSD, treatment options, and why community and support systems are crucial for sustained recovery. Whether you're navigating your own path or supporting a loved one, this episode offers hope, education, and practical tools.
📌 Learn about Recovery Literacy and the future of mental health advocacy.📌 Explore types of treatment centers and therapeutic approaches.📌 Hear personal stories that show healing is possible and unique for everyone.
Links:
Find resources at Recovery.com and follow Dr. Mala at @officialdrmala and drmala.net.
more info:
Dr. Malasri Chaudhery-Malgeri, Ph.D.Chief Clinical Officer|Ph.D., Clinical, Educational & Counseling Psychology Dr. Malasri Chaudhery-Malgeri (Dr. Mala) is the Chief Clinical Officer at Recovery.com, where she develops and delivers unbiased and educational resources for those seeking addiction and mental health treatment. A graduate of The University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) and Wayne State University (Detroit), she is an expert with over 20 years of experience in TBI, PTSD, Military Psychology, Marriage & Family Psychology, Rehabilitative Therapy, Integrative & Collaborative Program Development, Business Psychology, and more. She has helped individuals of diverse age ranges and backgrounds, including the military, executives and business professionals, political figures, rural communities, native populations, LGBTQ+ populations, athletes, and couples and families. She is also a motivational speaker and presenter.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:24):
Doctor Mala. Hi.
Hi. How are?
You, Anthony? Yeah.
I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?
Good, good. Thank you.
I'm really excited to talk to you today.
I appreciate you reaching out. I, you know, I'm, I'm really, as
I'm along on this, this podcast journey, I'm learning so much
and more that I more than I expected to learn, to be honest
(00:45):
with you. And it's a beautiful thing
because recovery is not the samefor everybody, right?
And I think, you know, we were talking about that before we
jumped, before we hit the recordhere, that there's, it's a
different path for everyone. It's unique, it's deeply
personal. And I'm excited to get into that
with you. Me too.
Thank you so much for having me.So you are currently the Chief
(01:07):
Clinical Officer at recovery.comand I'm, you know, I've, I've
spent a lot of time on this website.
Actually, it's, it's really useful, really cool.
Is it global or is it just NorthAmerica?
Nope, global. OK, that's what I thought
because I'm pulling it up and I,I see all the treatment centers,
you know, near me and in Canada and there's a lot on here that I
didn't even know existed, right?And, you know, there's a deep
(01:30):
dive about everyone, all the information.
It's kind of like it's like it'slike Airbnb for recovery, for
rehab, you know, maybe not as pleasant to stay, but or or or a
start, but same idea, sure. Sure.
Yeah. So let's dive right into it.
Do you want to start with kind of your personal experience and
how you ended up in recovery? Yeah, or working in recovery.
(01:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
So my experience, of course, started like so many in
childhood where I experienced childhood trauma, and that was
particularly, it was sexual trauma.
And then thankfully, my my mom was an advocate for me, my dad
was an advocate for me. And then, you know, I was
(02:15):
trudging forward through just life and then ended up bumping
into, unfortunately, a lot of racism and bullying in school.
Growing up primarily in a Caucasian environment, I was
definitely a minority at the time.
And for me, it was really interesting because I didn't
(02:36):
think of it that way. You know, I didn't think of
myself as necessarily different from anyone else, but I quickly
learned that I was. But that continued and and then
unfortunately, Fast forward a little bit, I ended up in a very
(02:57):
bad relationship. So experienced intimate partner
violence. So yeah, Fast forward,
unfortunately I was, I got involved in a bad relationship
that involved intimate partner violence.
It was an engagement, long term engagement.
And while I was doing that or while that ended up happening, I
(03:19):
was actually in school for getting my masters and you know,
getting my masters in marriage and family psychology.
And it was this really odd kind of sense of denial that a, that
this was happening to me. And then once I confronted it
(03:40):
and was like, this is wrong, youknow, and came to that landed on
that the shame, you know, like you're, you're in this field of
healing and recovery and trying to make family systems and
relationships work. And here you are, you know, so
the aim that I put on myself wasreally massive.
But thankfully, I had beautiful mentors and was able to talk to
(04:06):
them and they, they were psychologists.
So they served as my guide to basically realize that I needed
treatment. I needed to be, you know,
receiving services. And so I did.
And between my mentors and my therapist at the time, it was so
funny because I had a set of people who were very
(04:27):
psychodynamically driven and a set of therapists who were very
cognitive behavior really driven.
And I got both sides and both therapeutic approaches to help
me on my healing journey and knew that just the talk therapy
and the processing and all of that wasn't going to be enough
and that I needed more. So I was in a time at that point
(04:51):
where integrative approaches to healing was not a thing.
And to talk about something likeancillary or holistic services
was kind of considered woo woo. But I realized very quickly that
yoga, dance, singing, meditationwere such vital parts of my
(05:12):
upbringing and my childhood and my retreat from everything that
I'd experienced that that neededto be part of my healing
journey. And so I cobbled together my own
recovery program in addition to receiving my therapeutic and
mentorship services. And that's what got me through
(05:35):
and I, I cherish it every singleday, you know, so, so that for
me, like that's when I realized the passion for wanting to
really push forward integrative programming and really discuss
and talk about and consult with people on what true integration
(05:57):
of services means. And not just being a
multidisciplinary treatment center, you know, but truly
having connectivity between providers and all of that.
So coming out of school, I was, you know, really very
passionate. I found my passionate passion
rather in developing programs and really singing that song of,
(06:21):
of integration. And that's what took me down
this path of my career, my career path, and not just
providing one-on-one or group services, but rather doing more
administrative and executive type work so that we could, you
know, hit more people in a positive way.
We could help more people in a positive way.
(06:44):
And that was my mission. I realized, you know, it's like
I want to be able to not just help the person sitting across
from me, but I want to help the masses as much as I possibly
can. And you know, how we can do that
is through effective programmingand and development and
education. So yeah.
I love that. That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that. What like to me, I, I feel like
(07:07):
the hardest part of going through trauma and getting out
of any, any trauma or any traumatic experience, right?
And beginning the journey of healing and recovery is kind of
like telling that first person, right?
Or, or saying that first thing was that hard for you to do to
kind of like that for that, thatfirst one.
How did you do that? Yeah, I mean, so not only was I
(07:28):
living in a time where receivingtherapy and psychology just as a
profession was stigmatized greatly.
So even when I went to my parents and I said I'm going to
go major in psychology, they're like, wait, what?
You know, are you OK? You know, And of course the
answer to that was yes and no, you know, but the, the biggest
(07:50):
thing is being for me, the step was first saying, yeah, I'm
going into this profession, but I also can go back to a time
when I, I witnessed as a child also other people being abused.
And that was also traumatic for me.
But I also wanted to be that person in in that moment where
(08:13):
somebody needed to cry. I wanted to be the shoulder.
I wanted to sit down and I wanted to talk, you know.
So the other part of my story was I wanted to be a doctor ever
since I was a kid. And I got into an accelerated
program that was a Med school, you know, based program, medical
program, went in and then started to get reprimanded for
(08:34):
spending more than 5 minutes with my patients.
And you know, like the, the whole thing was you gotta get in
and out of there. And I was like, I can't, I can't
do that. I have to sit down and I have to
talk to people and I have to learn what's going on.
And so I felt lost, right? And then when I found
biopsychology, that was the first jaunt.
My parents, that's where my parents were like, wait a
(08:55):
second, what, you know, what canyou do with that?
But in general, you know, like the way culture, so many
cultures bring their children upis you live in silence.
There's stoicism that is considered to be a sign of
strength and that reinforces silence.
(09:17):
And if you have to talk to anybody, you're only talking to
your your family members, if at all.
And you don't let it go past those walls.
And I knew that was wrong, you know, so and not healing and not
helpful. I mean, of course you can lean
on your family members, but sometimes you of course need
more and their your family members aren't your therapist.
(09:39):
So, so, you know, so I, you know, really learned early on
that I'd have to go uphill, you know, to identify the stigmas
and then to articulate what we need to do instead of living in
them and really just pushed forward with that.
(10:02):
And it was hard. It was, you know, it was hard.
I'm so proud and glad and thankful that my parents
supported me, you know, with that journey.
But it's, it wasn't the last time I was going to face it.
You know, so many toxic workplaces that reinforce the
(10:23):
same, so many other patients that I've seen that have
experienced the same for cultural reasons.
And not just because they're from, you know, my marginalized
or minority cultures. Any, just the family culture,
you know, doesn't matter the ethnicity or the background.
It's really just what you're establishing in that nucleus.
(10:44):
So, so I saw stigma time and time again.
I experienced it time and time again and it just naturally
became part of my lexicon and myMO for for saying no.
We're going to talk about it. You know, it's going to be
difficult, but we're going to talk about it and we need to
(11:07):
talk about it to be able to makeany type of progress.
So yeah, it was hard and it still is.
There are moments where it's hard.
And because also from a professional standpoint, you
know, being a provider, one of the things that providers have
been taught is you keep it all, you know, departmentalized.
(11:27):
You don't share. You know, I was brought up in an
era where sharing experiences was not part of what we did from
a therapeutic standpoint. And that was reinforced in my
programming. And then it started to change
where, Nope, sharing can be helpful, you know, so that
started to evolve, which was so great.
(11:47):
And I'm so glad that that realization occurred.
But it wasn't until recently that even from a professional
standpoint, I felt like I could safely say, here's my story,
this is what it looks like, and just be completely blunt about
(12:07):
it all. Yeah, I from from my standpoint,
I can't tell you how much it's helped me that I've had both.
I've had as a patient, I've had therapists that share very
openly about their experience, their lived experience, whether
it be with addiction, mostly with addiction or or any trauma,
but mostly with addiction. And then I've had the like stone
cold psychologist where it's like I'm talking to like AI
(12:31):
almost that's trying to like figure me out and fix me.
And I can't tell you how much it's helped me to have that that
shared lived experience because I just feel more comfortable
sharing about my my stuff, right.
And so, yeah, that's what I was.I was gonna ask you that too is
like the importance of of lived experience.
And I'm really happy that that shift happened.
(12:52):
What what do you think caused that shift from you know you
don't say anything to now we canwe can share openly with.
Patients, I mean, like you said,you experienced both, right, You
know, so it's still with us. And, you know, one school of
thought is that this shift happened because there was
evidence showing that sharing made healing more accessible,
(13:17):
right? That's what I've experienced
time and time again. You know, we're not providers,
are not gods. Yeah.
We're human beings. Right.
We're human beings. We're, you know, like there is.
And the other factor here that Ithink just really sums it up
beautifully is that there is healing to be had in connection
(13:38):
and how you're building that connection and that rapport is
going to make a difference. Now, I will say this, I went
into marriage and family psychology.
That was my master's degree and then my psychology degree.
My doctorate was in psych and clinical psych and educational
psych. And when I did my master's at
(14:00):
the time going into the profession, I wasn't married and
I wasn't engaged. Then I ended up in my
relationship and that's where I was, you know, the intimate
partner violence was happening. It was an engagement, blah,
blah, blah. But in sessions, you know, a lot
of times, especially during thattime, it would be like, well,
you're not married. How do you know?
How do you know it? And even when you know, so one
(14:22):
of my other specialties is military psychology, working
with the military. Well, you haven't been on the
field. How do you know?
Right, You're right. I don't know.
Teach me. Tell me.
Tell me what your experiences are.
So I believe that lived experience is definitely
helpful, but it's not mandatory to be able to help someone on
(14:44):
their journey. Yeah, yeah, I, I love that
there's lots of, you know, techniques and and ways that you
can, you know, assist and talk therapy, right.
So, you know, you don't have to be exactly lived the same
experiences. It's it's a good point.
Yeah. What in your experience?
What what what makes some addicts or Alcoholics?
(15:07):
What's the kind of like corroding thread that keeps
people, gets people sober and keeps them sober?
So what's the corroding thread that?
Yeah, maybe I said that wrong. The what's, what's kind of the
congruency, like what's the whatworks for people that stay
successful in recovery? Yeah.
(15:28):
In my experience and what I've seen, it's consistency, it's
knowing that they have a really good therapeutic and non
therapeutic support system and it's being able to be outside of
the therapeutic system and having elements of healing that
(15:49):
are still therapeutic, but they're not considered
necessarily therapy, you know, so that kind of like enhances
the quality of life, anything that enhances quality of life.
So what I've seen is consistencyin making sure that you have
your therapeutic, you know, alliances with people, your
providers, your groups, whether that's a treatment center that
(16:12):
you even graduated from and you keep up with their alumni
program, you know, like that kind of a thing.
Or even if you decide not to do treatment center and you're with
just your providers, you know, your PCP, your specialists, you
know, physicians, your mental health providers, whoever, peer
support specialists are amazing as well and help on the recovery
(16:34):
journey too. You have to have a system that
works for you. You have to identify that
system. And when people find it and they
get into that groove and then they create that sense of kind
of structure and discipline for themselves.
That's what I've seen be most successful.
Yeah, this idea of, of connection, right outside
community connection. Yeah, I've, I've seen that for
(16:55):
me too. Every time I've relapsed, I can
say that I was, I was isolated before the incident, right?
I was keeping things to myself. I had these great ideas about
how I was going to fix my insides and I wasn't really
bouncing them off my mentors, off people in recovery, off
family members. You know, I, I kind of, I got
this right, This kind of ego inflation was happening.
(17:18):
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about
like types of treatment centers and you know what, what kind of
types of treatment centers thereare?
Sure. So there's so many and I'm
gonna, this is where I'm gonna plug in like recovery.com.
This is a tool that I wish I hadwhen I first started in being a
provider, you know, and Oh my goodness.
(17:40):
So anyway, let me summarize this.
So recovery.com is basically a beautiful place where you can
find treatment, any type of treatment that you need.
You can filter to your insurance, You can filter to
your locations that you're preferring to be in, you know,
as part of your journey and thenstart your search from there.
There are lots of different types of treatment centers and
(18:02):
some are traditional 12 step focused, while others take more
of a hybridized approach and will say, yeah, you have 12 step
as an option. But there are other approaches
that we can take and we can customize the programming for
you. There are also, of course,
treatment centers are gonna offer things like inpatient
services, outpatient services, residential programs, detoxing
(18:26):
programs, and even sober living to help with transitioning.
So there's a lot of different options out there, but what
connects all of them is again kind of like that option to
either engage in the non 12 stepor 12 step approaches.
And you know, the other element is what's used for therapeutic
(18:48):
options. So you know, evidence based
behavioral therapies are definitely what most centers are
going to utilize. There will usually be some type
of a holistic or integrative approach to alternative
therapies as well, like yoga, acupuncture, massage,
mindfulness based relapse prevention and so on and so
(19:13):
forth. Art and adventure therapy, music
therapy are also extremely helpful and many places will
also offer that. And then there's SMART Recovery.
And SMART Recovery is self management and recovery
training. So it's a kind of secular
cognitive behavioral approach that focuses on empowerment and
(19:36):
self-reliance and integrates in like practical tools that you
can apply to your life. And a lot of outpatient and
hybridized programs will offer SMART Recovery as an option as
well. So yeah, there's a lot out
there. Yeah, the point is, you know,
(19:57):
you got to find what works for you and, and what gets you
connected and outside of yourself, right.
Because this addiction thing, it's, it's a very selfish, in my
experience, it's a very selfish disease that, you know, I'm
always looking for, for ways to kind of pleasure me and, and
what's the connection between like pleasure seeking dopamine,
(20:17):
serotonin, oxytocin and, and addiction?
Yeah, I mean, I actually don't always think about it that way.
I think the reason why we're dopamine seeking or pleasure
seeking in that sense is becausewe're trying to Band-Aid or get
through what we're really hurting about.
(20:38):
So the, the heart of addiction, any kind is some kind of pain
that you're trying to figure outmask, Band-Aid, you know, and
eventually hopefully work through, you know, So it, you
(21:00):
know, you, you mentioned right now like it's selfish, it's
pleasure saying well, because you're trying to heal, you know,
and I would actually encourage, don't be so hard on yourself,
you know, like this is this is really about figuring out what's
what's going on, what's hurting you, you know, Yeah.
And I want to, I want to clarifytoo, that, you know, the trauma
(21:23):
experienced is it doesn't have to be this.
I've learned this. It doesn't have to be this big
thing. You know, my childhood was this
or I, my parents treated me poorly or they never showed like
I had an amazing childhood, right.
And nobody in my family that I know of had or suffered with any
addiction or alcoholism issues. But to your point, yeah, I was,
I was trying to escape pain and and mask the way I've, you know,
(21:45):
sort of felt about myself. Right.
Yeah. Do you have any?
I love data, I love science, I love statistics.
And we were talking a bit about this offline.
And, you know, I love learning about new things and there's
always stuff going on, right? So do you have anything that you
can share around this topic? Absolutely.
So we're doing a lot of new research at recovery.com and one
(22:09):
thing that we do have is so manypeople are visiting our site and
they reach out with questions and have inquiries about
different things. And one of the things that we've
seen for sure is that there is abig need for treatment in
substance use and for mental health conditions and that
(22:30):
really it everything is running together, you know?
So remember that when you're looking for treatment for
substance use, it doesn't just have to address the substance in
question and that use or that cycle that you're in that there
are those underlying concerns and issues that you need to
(22:53):
address. And our data is showing us that.
So people who are coming to our site, you know, we've had over
25% looking for specifically substance use treatment and over
15% of our visitors are looking for both.
But I account that number, the over 15% to be focusing on one
(23:17):
or the other and not realizing that it runs parallel to one
another. So very interesting information
there. Out of all of that, one of the
things that we've seen is traumais really a big pull and a
driving factor for mental healthconditions leading people to
seek help and then followed by depression, anxiety and
(23:43):
suicidality, as well as the wantto be able to help partners is
really big. So, so we've got some pretty
interesting trends this in this past year.
This is data from this past year2024 made to current that are
showing us these trends right now.
(24:04):
Interesting. The the partner thing is, is
interesting to me because that'swhy I spend a lot of time on
like forums online, you know, Reddit, one of them, there's an
addiction Reddit that I like to read and and kind of comment on
when people have questions and about experience.
And I'm not a doctor or scientist.
I don't try to be. I did when I was in my
addiction. I tried to be a doctor by
(24:25):
managing my chemicals and ADHD, but I know I can't play that
role anymore. It doesn't work for me and I'm
not a doctor. So, but the, what I see a lot
from people I find interesting is there's a, there's a common
theme around like what is my partner on, right?
He's a, he's exhibiting, she's exhibiting this, this and this.
(24:46):
I'm like, I'm scared. What what's involved here?
Are we dealing with fentanyl? Are we dealing with meth?
He's doing this, this and that. She's doing this, this and that.
So I find that that's interesting and and family, it
plays such a huge role in this in this process.
What do you think about family and support systems and how
essential they are to someone's recovery?
Yeah. I mean, it's gonna vary from
(25:08):
person to person, but when possible and if in a good place,
I would say is that there's two ways of looking at it.
One, if there's healing that is needed to happen and resolution
that needed is needed to happen,as you know, part of the family
unit, then I highly recommend that because that's part of
(25:28):
addressing those underlying issues may be a concern, but
that's going to be at your pace,you know, and with the guidance
of your therapist when you're ready to do that.
But if you feel good with your family unit, like you mentioned
yourself, like no issues with family, you love them, great
childhood, etcetera, then havingthem as part of your support
(25:49):
system right off the bat and integrating them into
psychoeducation is essential andit's really, really good.
Psychoeducation in general is really a good idea for anybody
that you consider your family, whether that's the family you
were born into or the family that you choose and creating,
you know, a system that you knowis going to support you and be
(26:09):
like, OK, here's all the education.
This is what I'm going through, this is what I need.
Weaving them into your sessions as a, you know, with family
sessions, group sessions, whatever.
There are also separate groups that family members can attend
as part of treatment programs that are really good and very
helpful that I highly recommend too.
(26:31):
Because, you know, as the support system or as the person
outside of the person who's recovering, you're also going to
be going through a whole bunch of emotions and it's important
to process those. So I can't recommend, you know,
getting your own support as wellenough.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, A common thingI hear and I, I experience this
too, is I go to rehab, I heal orI do a, a, a large part of, of
(26:54):
my healing journey. I come home and I'm like ready
to go. I'm, I'm fixed, you know, let's
go. Everybody.
I'm I'm sorry for doing everything, but I'm back and you
come home and it's like you lefta tornado in the house, right.
And everyone's kind of cleaning the pieces and they haven't
really done the healing yet. Right.
So my treatment center offered afamily program.
And now my mom is a proud, like,head of the aftercare for the
(27:18):
family. Yeah, she loves it.
She. Loves it.
How wonderful. That's so great.
And I think she's come to a point now where she's realized,
much like myself, that a lot of this healing journey is in
helping other people. You've realized that too.
There's a huge, it's kind of like teaching being a teacher.
And you, you learn the, the, thecontent, the, you know, better,
(27:41):
faster. You learn more about the content
by teaching others. I've, I've come to the
realization that I need to help other people to get outside of
myself. And I think my mom has too.
She could. She helps a lot of people, you
know, a lot of family members. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so great. Yeah.
I know there's definitely healing to be had when you're
ready in being able to be of service to others.
And it definitely was part of myown journey from the beginning.
(28:05):
So I can relate to that as well.Yeah.
Yeah, you talk, you talk a lot about recovery literacy.
Yes, can. You do you want to describe what
what that is and why it's important.
Yeah. So recovery literacy, I mean,
this is about educating as many people as we possibly can to
help them along their journey, no matter what that journey is
(28:27):
and where they're at on that journey or what role they're
playing on the journey, right? So whether that's parents, you
know, coming with questions about their loved ones, their
children, you know, their spouse, family, you know,
marriages and relationships coming to ask about their
spouses, whether that's instructors, teachers coming and
saying, how do I educate my students about this?
(28:50):
Whether that's you on the journey going, I don't even know
where to begin. How do I get from maybe thinking
that I don't need treatment to answering questions that I have
about the concerns that I have and figuring out that I do need
to get to treatment? You know, so recovery literacy
is about really providing education across all walks for
(29:11):
all people, no matter where they're at, so that we can move
from contemplation to action. I love that.
That's amazing. So you've, you've mentioned
you've done a lot of work with military and I presume like PTSD
what, and indigenous communitiesas well, LGBTQ plus populations.
(29:33):
What, what, what, why don't you tell us what is PTSD first of
all? And then like, how does somebody
heal from that or begin to heal from that?
Yeah, I mean, most Simply put, post traumatic stress disorder
can be experienced. You don't have to be in the
military to experience it. Trauma, you know, anything that
that has affected you negatively, that has basically
(29:56):
long lasting repercussions that make it difficult for you to go
through your day-to-day would constitute a potential diagnosis
of the PTSDI had to go through. And I still go through my own,
you know, that's part of my current recovery journey is
navigating some of those symptoms that come back from my
(30:20):
PTSD related to the traumas thatI have encountered.
And they will get, there are triggers that are involved with
them that you have to navigate as well.
And, and, you know, try to learnabout and figure out and then
have a good toolbox ready to go to be able to, you know, apply
and get through whatever it is that you're feeling.
So anybody can experience PTSD and how it progresses is also
(30:48):
unique to each person. Is it something that you
necessarily heal from? I always say healing is
consistent. It's a very, it's not a linear
journey. Recovery is not a linear
journey. It is lifelong, you know, even
with something like grief, right, which can also be a
component of PTSD, You know, youone day it'll be like, I feel
(31:14):
great, this is good. And then tomorrow it'll be like
you feel like you're back at dayone, you know, because of
whatever triggers might have occurred.
So to be able to understand thatyour recovery journey is going
to be unique to you is essential.
And because it's unique to you to have your own unique tools,
(31:35):
and you know, whether that's, again, the compilation of
providers, your own practices, you know, your support system,
your sense of connection is going to make a difference.
Yeah, the, the most important step is, you know, reaching out,
right? Nobody, nobody can read my mind
and I have to ask for help. And that was the hardest part
for sure. Absolutely.
(31:55):
Yeah. Where do you see mental health
advocacy and, and the future of mental health?
Maybe the stigma. I, I, I, you know, I used to
think that the stigma around addiction and, and mental health
would one day there was a possibility that it gets kind of
demolished. I don't think that that's true
anymore. I think it's, it's lessening and
(32:16):
it's getting better as time goeson.
But where do you see the future of all this?
You know, that's such a great question.
I like I said to you, I think, you know, like when I first
started in this field, we, you know, psychology and
psychologists were stigmatized. It was actually, I'm also a
professor and one of the things that would actually show up in
(32:38):
our textbooks for undergrad and that psych one O 1 class was the
journey, the historical journey of what psychology was, where it
started now. So I can literally pinpoint in
media where it started to shift.OK, You can see it in movies.
(33:01):
So we had Frasier come out in the 2000s or, you know, early
1990s somewhere there. And that's when the concept of
being a shrink started to turn over to psychologist and that
being revered. So I'm actually really thankful
(33:23):
for that show because quickly in, you know, in the timeline of
of psychology, that is what helped with the the initial
destigmatization of psychologists and psychology as
a profession. And what I loved also about that
show is that he was what he was a radio talk show host.
(33:43):
So he was putting it out there to the masses and talking about
what we were experiencing psychology, which truly is a
subject that, you know, is in our day-to-day life and how we
function and how we behave and how we react to things.
And he was putting it out there to the masses.
And that also helped with destigmatizing the profession.
(34:04):
So we started to go, you know, from that movement into still
having to navigate silence and stoicism, as I mentioned.
And I feel that in the past, youknow, decade or so, we have made
huge strides to being able to talk about things that we
(34:25):
haven't been able to talk about before and embrace mental health
and healing and recovery in hugeforce.
And I'm so thankful for that. Unfortunately, though, with a
lot of what's going on in the world, I'm seeing a regression.
There is an increase in fear. There's, you know, the fear of,
(34:46):
again, even saying that you needhelp, the fear of being able to
identify in certain ways, whether that's for your race,
ethnicity, gender, etcetera. It's starting to come back
again, and I'm seeing a resurgence of silence as a
result. And that concerns me, although I
(35:07):
will say while that is happening, because we kind of
had this push of being able to, you know, break the silence.
There are so many more people who are true advocates and we're
seeing so much more movement andenergy in being able to have
recovery based services that I remain very hopeful.
(35:30):
So I mean, the future of mental health, from my view, it's not
just clinical, it's collective, and it needs to be deeply
integrative. And I think we can move forward
towards a model and a system anda collective way of thinking
where we're not just treating symptoms, but we're looking at
(35:53):
transformation of our systems, the system that is most
immediately in front of us within our family, all the way
to our community, all the way toour nation, all the way to our
world, Right. So, you know, my hope is that we
can continue to push forward. Yeah.
Yeah, it's true. I would say to like with with
(36:15):
social media, you're seeing a lot more, you know, these these
influencers that are in sobrietyand they're kind of making it
look cool, right? And I think that that's
important. You know, say what you want
about social media, there's a lot of pros and cons to it.
But I think the idea of, I don'tknow, a 20 something or, you
know, 18 year old that's struggling and doesn't know what
(36:35):
to do, seeing this kind of, you know, person that's looks like
they're having fun in recovery and looks like he's making it
kind of cool, if you will. I think that that's very
important. You know, and I know a few here
in Toronto that I've met just inmy time of doing this, this
podcast. And I think that that's
important. Yeah, it's very important.
And I think it's important to identify also kind of like the
(36:57):
two sides to it. I've actually worked with a lot
of athletes and musicians and political figures as well.
And one of the things that is a common theme, unfortunately, is
that it's almost a prerequisite for you to have an issue and
then be in recovery, you know, and that that can then gets
(37:19):
classified as you being in the in Group or now you, you are
truly one of us, you know, like so almost a prerequisite to be a
musician or to be a political figure, an athlete.
And I want to caution everyone to that, you know, so while I'm
very thankful to social media and influencers for being able
(37:40):
to share their story and destigmatize, for sure, I don't
want people to think that this is a cool thing to do and a
prerequisite in order for me to be part of any type of, you
know, classification of group, you know, whether it's a
profession or otherwise. Yeah, yeah.
(38:01):
And I definitely don't recommend.
Yeah, I, I, I'll tell you right now, you know, it's a
progressive disease. And I, I'm a, you know, I'm an
advocate of, of that it does getworse.
You know, when you go back out, you pick up where you left off
it and it does get worse. So I don't recommend that to
anybody. What are some tools and insights
(38:26):
that somebody can walk away with?
You know, they don't know what to do.
They're struggling, they're feeling alone.
You know, nobody gets them. What's something they can do
right now? Go get help.
And if you need something that's, you know, private, you
know, that needs to be quiet foryou to figure things out again,
(38:48):
you know, starting at a place like recovery.com is not a bad
place to start because it's going to give you all the
education that you need and hopefully answer a lot of
questions that you might have. But more than that, also like do
the search, you know, find the support system.
That's the most important part is like, find the support system
that works for you, your friends, your family.
(39:09):
Saying this is what I need to do.
I need help getting there, reaching out to a provider,
whether it's your PCP, because you've got 1, you know, and
saying, I, I don't know where tobegin.
Please help. You know, like that, just saying
that first line is so important and so crucial.
I can't recommend that enough. And it will, it will be
(39:31):
challenging, but it will have major rewards in the long run.
So get the help, yeah? Yeah, awesome.
OK, I want to get some lightninground questions from you Sure.
You know, say the first thing that comes to mind or or maybe.
Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, sure.
Right now, what's one word that defines recovery?
(39:53):
01 word that defines recovery. That's a hard one.
Yeah. You got me right at the
beginning when he comes in my mind.
That's why it's like that. Healing connection.
Yeah. Love it.
Yeah. What's a favorite book or
resource for trauma education? Bessel van der Cokes, The body
(40:15):
keeps score. Yeah.
Oh, I've heard that. I've heard that's good.
Yeah. The body keeps score.
I gotta read that. Really good, yeah.
My therapist recommended it to me.
Maybe I should read it. Yeah.
You can do it on Audible too, soif you need to listen to it,
it's really good. Yeah, yeah.
What's a healing tool that you swear by?
Oh, meditation for me is my non negotiable.
Yeah, yeah. That's a good one.
(40:39):
And then finally, what is the most misunderstood thing about
brain health? Well, I mean, we hear it in the
language. You're so crazy, right?
Be and that's part of the stigmathat I feel we've, you know, had
to overcome in that timeline of,you know, psychology as a as a
(41:02):
profession and as a field, people have equated brain health
to something separate. But it's no different than going
to the cardiologist and get treatment for your heart issues.
Your brain is an organ in your body.
So you know, when we're talking about brain health and we're
talking about mental health, it it really needs to be no
(41:24):
different in our minds as going to the PCP or going to the
specialist for an ear, nose, throat problem or a heart
problem or a gut problem, because the brain is literally
what's keeping you alive. So brain health is vital and you
know, it needs to be considered as part of the human body
(41:44):
treatment. So mental health and Wellness is
part of that. Yeah, yeah.
And and this, you know, this idea of rub some dirt on it or,
you know, don't show emotion. I think, you know, as men,
particularly in my experience, that's been kind of the way we
were brought up as you know, youjust kind of rub some dirt on it
and move on, right. You don't talk about it like you
said. And then there's this family
(42:06):
dynamic too. I like that you said that at the
beginning too. I wanted to comment on that, you
know, no, but we don't talk about the family to people
outside the family. And it's not culture specific.
It's not, it's family specific to your point, right.
So yeah, the help is out there if you're willing, and all it
takes is that one first step. Yeah, absolutely.
(42:27):
Absolutely, yeah. Amazing.
Thank you so much for your time today, Doctor.
I appreciate it. I learned a lot.
There's a lot of good information in there.
And where can we find you at or where can we find?
I mean, recovery.com is pretty easy and straightforward.
Yeah, it took Me 2 seconds. Absolutely.
Yeah, recovery.com, beautiful resource for me personally, My
(42:47):
social handle is at the officialDoctor Mala.
My personal website isdoctormala.net.
Yeah, perfect. Amazing.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me,
Anthony. It was a pleasure.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
(43:08):
informational and motivational purposes only.
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional
you are.
Doctor Mala. Hi.
Hi. How are?
You, Anthony? Yeah.
I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?
Good, good. Thank you.
I'm really excited to talk to you today.
I appreciate you reaching out. I, you know, I'm, I'm really, as
I'm along on this, this podcast journey, I'm learning so much
and more that I more than I expected to learn, to be honest
(00:45):
with you. And it's a beautiful thing
because recovery is not the samefor everybody, right?
And I think, you know, we were talking about that before we
jumped, before we hit the recordhere, that there's, it's a
different path for everyone. It's unique, it's deeply
personal. And I'm excited to get into that
with you. Me too.
Thank you so much for having me.So you are currently the Chief
(01:07):
Clinical Officer at recovery.comand I'm, you know, I've, I've
spent a lot of time on this website.
Actually, it's, it's really useful, really cool.
Is it global or is it just NorthAmerica?
Nope, global. OK, that's what I thought
because I'm pulling it up and I,I see all the treatment centers,
you know, near me and in Canada and there's a lot on here that I
didn't even know existed, right?And, you know, there's a deep
(01:30):
dive about everyone, all the information.
It's kind of like it's like it'slike Airbnb for recovery, for
rehab, you know, maybe not as pleasant to stay, but or or or a
start, but same idea, sure. Sure.
Yeah. So let's dive right into it.
Do you want to start with kind of your personal experience and
how you ended up in recovery? Yeah, or working in recovery.
(01:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
So my experience, of course, started like so many in
childhood where I experienced childhood trauma, and that was
particularly, it was sexual trauma.
And then thankfully, my my mom was an advocate for me, my dad
was an advocate for me. And then, you know, I was
(02:15):
trudging forward through just life and then ended up bumping
into, unfortunately, a lot of racism and bullying in school.
Growing up primarily in a Caucasian environment, I was
definitely a minority at the time.
And for me, it was really interesting because I didn't
(02:36):
think of it that way. You know, I didn't think of
myself as necessarily different from anyone else, but I quickly
learned that I was. But that continued and and then
unfortunately, Fast forward a little bit, I ended up in a very
(02:57):
bad relationship. So experienced intimate partner
violence. So yeah, Fast forward,
unfortunately I was, I got involved in a bad relationship
that involved intimate partner violence.
It was an engagement, long term engagement.
And while I was doing that or while that ended up happening, I
(03:19):
was actually in school for getting my masters and you know,
getting my masters in marriage and family psychology.
And it was this really odd kind of sense of denial that a, that
this was happening to me. And then once I confronted it
(03:40):
and was like, this is wrong, youknow, and came to that landed on
that the shame, you know, like you're, you're in this field of
healing and recovery and trying to make family systems and
relationships work. And here you are, you know, so
the aim that I put on myself wasreally massive.
But thankfully, I had beautiful mentors and was able to talk to
(04:06):
them and they, they were psychologists.
So they served as my guide to basically realize that I needed
treatment. I needed to be, you know,
receiving services. And so I did.
And between my mentors and my therapist at the time, it was so
funny because I had a set of people who were very
(04:27):
psychodynamically driven and a set of therapists who were very
cognitive behavior really driven.
And I got both sides and both therapeutic approaches to help
me on my healing journey and knew that just the talk therapy
and the processing and all of that wasn't going to be enough
and that I needed more. So I was in a time at that point
(04:51):
where integrative approaches to healing was not a thing.
And to talk about something likeancillary or holistic services
was kind of considered woo woo. But I realized very quickly that
yoga, dance, singing, meditationwere such vital parts of my
(05:12):
upbringing and my childhood and my retreat from everything that
I'd experienced that that neededto be part of my healing
journey. And so I cobbled together my own
recovery program in addition to receiving my therapeutic and
mentorship services. And that's what got me through
(05:35):
and I, I cherish it every singleday, you know, so, so that for
me, like that's when I realized the passion for wanting to
really push forward integrative programming and really discuss
and talk about and consult with people on what true integration
(05:57):
of services means. And not just being a
multidisciplinary treatment center, you know, but truly
having connectivity between providers and all of that.
So coming out of school, I was, you know, really very
passionate. I found my passionate passion
rather in developing programs and really singing that song of,
(06:21):
of integration. And that's what took me down
this path of my career, my career path, and not just
providing one-on-one or group services, but rather doing more
administrative and executive type work so that we could, you
know, hit more people in a positive way.
We could help more people in a positive way.
(06:44):
And that was my mission. I realized, you know, it's like
I want to be able to not just help the person sitting across
from me, but I want to help the masses as much as I possibly
can. And you know, how we can do that
is through effective programmingand and development and
education. So yeah.
I love that. That's amazing.
Thank you for sharing that. What like to me, I, I feel like
(07:07):
the hardest part of going through trauma and getting out
of any, any trauma or any traumatic experience, right?
And beginning the journey of healing and recovery is kind of
like telling that first person, right?
Or, or saying that first thing was that hard for you to do to
kind of like that for that, thatfirst one.
How did you do that? Yeah, I mean, so not only was I
(07:28):
living in a time where receivingtherapy and psychology just as a
profession was stigmatized greatly.
So even when I went to my parents and I said I'm going to
go major in psychology, they're like, wait, what?
You know, are you OK? You know, And of course the
answer to that was yes and no, you know, but the, the biggest
(07:50):
thing is being for me, the step was first saying, yeah, I'm
going into this profession, but I also can go back to a time
when I, I witnessed as a child also other people being abused.
And that was also traumatic for me.
But I also wanted to be that person in in that moment where
(08:13):
somebody needed to cry. I wanted to be the shoulder.
I wanted to sit down and I wanted to talk, you know.
So the other part of my story was I wanted to be a doctor ever
since I was a kid. And I got into an accelerated
program that was a Med school, you know, based program, medical
program, went in and then started to get reprimanded for
(08:34):
spending more than 5 minutes with my patients.
And you know, like the, the whole thing was you gotta get in
and out of there. And I was like, I can't, I can't
do that. I have to sit down and I have to
talk to people and I have to learn what's going on.
And so I felt lost, right? And then when I found
biopsychology, that was the first jaunt.
My parents, that's where my parents were like, wait a
(08:55):
second, what, you know, what canyou do with that?
But in general, you know, like the way culture, so many
cultures bring their children upis you live in silence.
There's stoicism that is considered to be a sign of
strength and that reinforces silence.
(09:17):
And if you have to talk to anybody, you're only talking to
your your family members, if at all.
And you don't let it go past those walls.
And I knew that was wrong, you know, so and not healing and not
helpful. I mean, of course you can lean
on your family members, but sometimes you of course need
more and their your family members aren't your therapist.
(09:39):
So, so, you know, so I, you know, really learned early on
that I'd have to go uphill, you know, to identify the stigmas
and then to articulate what we need to do instead of living in
them and really just pushed forward with that.
(10:02):
And it was hard. It was, you know, it was hard.
I'm so proud and glad and thankful that my parents
supported me, you know, with that journey.
But it's, it wasn't the last time I was going to face it.
You know, so many toxic workplaces that reinforce the
(10:23):
same, so many other patients that I've seen that have
experienced the same for cultural reasons.
And not just because they're from, you know, my marginalized
or minority cultures. Any, just the family culture,
you know, doesn't matter the ethnicity or the background.
It's really just what you're establishing in that nucleus.
(10:44):
So, so I saw stigma time and time again.
I experienced it time and time again and it just naturally
became part of my lexicon and myMO for for saying no.
We're going to talk about it. You know, it's going to be
difficult, but we're going to talk about it and we need to
(11:07):
talk about it to be able to makeany type of progress.
So yeah, it was hard and it still is.
There are moments where it's hard.
And because also from a professional standpoint, you
know, being a provider, one of the things that providers have
been taught is you keep it all, you know, departmentalized.
(11:27):
You don't share. You know, I was brought up in an
era where sharing experiences was not part of what we did from
a therapeutic standpoint. And that was reinforced in my
programming. And then it started to change
where, Nope, sharing can be helpful, you know, so that
started to evolve, which was so great.
(11:47):
And I'm so glad that that realization occurred.
But it wasn't until recently that even from a professional
standpoint, I felt like I could safely say, here's my story,
this is what it looks like, and just be completely blunt about
(12:07):
it all. Yeah, I from from my standpoint,
I can't tell you how much it's helped me that I've had both.
I've had as a patient, I've had therapists that share very
openly about their experience, their lived experience, whether
it be with addiction, mostly with addiction or or any trauma,
but mostly with addiction. And then I've had the like stone
cold psychologist where it's like I'm talking to like AI
(12:31):
almost that's trying to like figure me out and fix me.
And I can't tell you how much it's helped me to have that that
shared lived experience because I just feel more comfortable
sharing about my my stuff, right.
And so, yeah, that's what I was.I was gonna ask you that too is
like the importance of of lived experience.
And I'm really happy that that shift happened.
(12:52):
What what do you think caused that shift from you know you
don't say anything to now we canwe can share openly with.
Patients, I mean, like you said,you experienced both, right, You
know, so it's still with us. And, you know, one school of
thought is that this shift happened because there was
evidence showing that sharing made healing more accessible,
(13:17):
right? That's what I've experienced
time and time again. You know, we're not providers,
are not gods. Yeah.
We're human beings. Right.
We're human beings. We're, you know, like there is.
And the other factor here that Ithink just really sums it up
beautifully is that there is healing to be had in connection
(13:38):
and how you're building that connection and that rapport is
going to make a difference. Now, I will say this, I went
into marriage and family psychology.
That was my master's degree and then my psychology degree.
My doctorate was in psych and clinical psych and educational
psych. And when I did my master's at
(14:00):
the time going into the profession, I wasn't married and
I wasn't engaged. Then I ended up in my
relationship and that's where I was, you know, the intimate
partner violence was happening. It was an engagement, blah,
blah, blah. But in sessions, you know, a lot
of times, especially during thattime, it would be like, well,
you're not married. How do you know?
How do you know it? And even when you know, so one
(14:22):
of my other specialties is military psychology, working
with the military. Well, you haven't been on the
field. How do you know?
Right, You're right. I don't know.
Teach me. Tell me.
Tell me what your experiences are.
So I believe that lived experience is definitely
helpful, but it's not mandatory to be able to help someone on
(14:44):
their journey. Yeah, yeah, I, I love that
there's lots of, you know, techniques and and ways that you
can, you know, assist and talk therapy, right.
So, you know, you don't have to be exactly lived the same
experiences. It's it's a good point.
Yeah. What in your experience?
What what what makes some addicts or Alcoholics?
(15:07):
What's the kind of like corroding thread that keeps
people, gets people sober and keeps them sober?
So what's the corroding thread that?
Yeah, maybe I said that wrong. The what's, what's kind of the
congruency, like what's the whatworks for people that stay
successful in recovery? Yeah.
(15:28):
In my experience and what I've seen, it's consistency, it's
knowing that they have a really good therapeutic and non
therapeutic support system and it's being able to be outside of
the therapeutic system and having elements of healing that
(15:49):
are still therapeutic, but they're not considered
necessarily therapy, you know, so that kind of like enhances
the quality of life, anything that enhances quality of life.
So what I've seen is consistencyin making sure that you have
your therapeutic, you know, alliances with people, your
providers, your groups, whether that's a treatment center that
(16:12):
you even graduated from and you keep up with their alumni
program, you know, like that kind of a thing.
Or even if you decide not to do treatment center and you're with
just your providers, you know, your PCP, your specialists, you
know, physicians, your mental health providers, whoever, peer
support specialists are amazing as well and help on the recovery
(16:34):
journey too. You have to have a system that
works for you. You have to identify that
system. And when people find it and they
get into that groove and then they create that sense of kind
of structure and discipline for themselves.
That's what I've seen be most successful.
Yeah, this idea of, of connection, right outside
community connection. Yeah, I've, I've seen that for
(16:55):
me too. Every time I've relapsed, I can
say that I was, I was isolated before the incident, right?
I was keeping things to myself. I had these great ideas about
how I was going to fix my insides and I wasn't really
bouncing them off my mentors, off people in recovery, off
family members. You know, I, I kind of, I got
this right, This kind of ego inflation was happening.
(17:18):
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about
like types of treatment centers and you know what, what kind of
types of treatment centers thereare?
Sure. So there's so many and I'm
gonna, this is where I'm gonna plug in like recovery.com.
This is a tool that I wish I hadwhen I first started in being a
provider, you know, and Oh my goodness.
(17:40):
So anyway, let me summarize this.
So recovery.com is basically a beautiful place where you can
find treatment, any type of treatment that you need.
You can filter to your insurance, You can filter to
your locations that you're preferring to be in, you know,
as part of your journey and thenstart your search from there.
There are lots of different types of treatment centers and
(18:02):
some are traditional 12 step focused, while others take more
of a hybridized approach and will say, yeah, you have 12 step
as an option. But there are other approaches
that we can take and we can customize the programming for
you. There are also, of course,
treatment centers are gonna offer things like inpatient
services, outpatient services, residential programs, detoxing
(18:26):
programs, and even sober living to help with transitioning.
So there's a lot of different options out there, but what
connects all of them is again kind of like that option to
either engage in the non 12 stepor 12 step approaches.
And you know, the other element is what's used for therapeutic
(18:48):
options. So you know, evidence based
behavioral therapies are definitely what most centers are
going to utilize. There will usually be some type
of a holistic or integrative approach to alternative
therapies as well, like yoga, acupuncture, massage,
mindfulness based relapse prevention and so on and so
(19:13):
forth. Art and adventure therapy, music
therapy are also extremely helpful and many places will
also offer that. And then there's SMART Recovery.
And SMART Recovery is self management and recovery
training. So it's a kind of secular
cognitive behavioral approach that focuses on empowerment and
(19:36):
self-reliance and integrates in like practical tools that you
can apply to your life. And a lot of outpatient and
hybridized programs will offer SMART Recovery as an option as
well. So yeah, there's a lot out
there. Yeah, the point is, you know,
(19:57):
you got to find what works for you and, and what gets you
connected and outside of yourself, right.
Because this addiction thing, it's, it's a very selfish, in my
experience, it's a very selfish disease that, you know, I'm
always looking for, for ways to kind of pleasure me and, and
what's the connection between like pleasure seeking dopamine,
(20:17):
serotonin, oxytocin and, and addiction?
Yeah, I mean, I actually don't always think about it that way.
I think the reason why we're dopamine seeking or pleasure
seeking in that sense is becausewe're trying to Band-Aid or get
through what we're really hurting about.
(20:38):
So the, the heart of addiction, any kind is some kind of pain
that you're trying to figure outmask, Band-Aid, you know, and
eventually hopefully work through, you know, So it, you
(21:00):
know, you, you mentioned right now like it's selfish, it's
pleasure saying well, because you're trying to heal, you know,
and I would actually encourage, don't be so hard on yourself,
you know, like this is this is really about figuring out what's
what's going on, what's hurting you, you know, Yeah.
And I want to, I want to clarifytoo, that, you know, the trauma
(21:23):
experienced is it doesn't have to be this.
I've learned this. It doesn't have to be this big
thing. You know, my childhood was this
or I, my parents treated me poorly or they never showed like
I had an amazing childhood, right.
And nobody in my family that I know of had or suffered with any
addiction or alcoholism issues. But to your point, yeah, I was,
I was trying to escape pain and and mask the way I've, you know,
(21:45):
sort of felt about myself. Right.
Yeah. Do you have any?
I love data, I love science, I love statistics.
And we were talking a bit about this offline.
And, you know, I love learning about new things and there's
always stuff going on, right? So do you have anything that you
can share around this topic? Absolutely.
So we're doing a lot of new research at recovery.com and one
(22:09):
thing that we do have is so manypeople are visiting our site and
they reach out with questions and have inquiries about
different things. And one of the things that we've
seen for sure is that there is abig need for treatment in
substance use and for mental health conditions and that
(22:30):
really it everything is running together, you know?
So remember that when you're looking for treatment for
substance use, it doesn't just have to address the substance in
question and that use or that cycle that you're in that there
are those underlying concerns and issues that you need to
(22:53):
address. And our data is showing us that.
So people who are coming to our site, you know, we've had over
25% looking for specifically substance use treatment and over
15% of our visitors are looking for both.
But I account that number, the over 15% to be focusing on one
(23:17):
or the other and not realizing that it runs parallel to one
another. So very interesting information
there. Out of all of that, one of the
things that we've seen is traumais really a big pull and a
driving factor for mental healthconditions leading people to
seek help and then followed by depression, anxiety and
(23:43):
suicidality, as well as the wantto be able to help partners is
really big. So, so we've got some pretty
interesting trends this in this past year.
This is data from this past year2024 made to current that are
showing us these trends right now.
(24:04):
Interesting. The the partner thing is, is
interesting to me because that'swhy I spend a lot of time on
like forums online, you know, Reddit, one of them, there's an
addiction Reddit that I like to read and and kind of comment on
when people have questions and about experience.
And I'm not a doctor or scientist.
I don't try to be. I did when I was in my
addiction. I tried to be a doctor by
(24:25):
managing my chemicals and ADHD, but I know I can't play that
role anymore. It doesn't work for me and I'm
not a doctor. So, but the, what I see a lot
from people I find interesting is there's a, there's a common
theme around like what is my partner on, right?
He's a, he's exhibiting, she's exhibiting this, this and this.
(24:46):
I'm like, I'm scared. What what's involved here?
Are we dealing with fentanyl? Are we dealing with meth?
He's doing this, this and that. She's doing this, this and that.
So I find that that's interesting and and family, it
plays such a huge role in this in this process.
What do you think about family and support systems and how
essential they are to someone's recovery?
Yeah. I mean, it's gonna vary from
(25:08):
person to person, but when possible and if in a good place,
I would say is that there's two ways of looking at it.
One, if there's healing that is needed to happen and resolution
that needed is needed to happen,as you know, part of the family
unit, then I highly recommend that because that's part of
(25:28):
addressing those underlying issues may be a concern, but
that's going to be at your pace,you know, and with the guidance
of your therapist when you're ready to do that.
But if you feel good with your family unit, like you mentioned
yourself, like no issues with family, you love them, great
childhood, etcetera, then havingthem as part of your support
(25:49):
system right off the bat and integrating them into
psychoeducation is essential andit's really, really good.
Psychoeducation in general is really a good idea for anybody
that you consider your family, whether that's the family you
were born into or the family that you choose and creating,
you know, a system that you knowis going to support you and be
(26:09):
like, OK, here's all the education.
This is what I'm going through, this is what I need.
Weaving them into your sessions as a, you know, with family
sessions, group sessions, whatever.
There are also separate groups that family members can attend
as part of treatment programs that are really good and very
helpful that I highly recommend too.
(26:31):
Because, you know, as the support system or as the person
outside of the person who's recovering, you're also going to
be going through a whole bunch of emotions and it's important
to process those. So I can't recommend, you know,
getting your own support as wellenough.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, A common thingI hear and I, I experience this
too, is I go to rehab, I heal orI do a, a, a large part of, of
(26:54):
my healing journey. I come home and I'm like ready
to go. I'm, I'm fixed, you know, let's
go. Everybody.
I'm I'm sorry for doing everything, but I'm back and you
come home and it's like you lefta tornado in the house, right.
And everyone's kind of cleaning the pieces and they haven't
really done the healing yet. Right.
So my treatment center offered afamily program.
And now my mom is a proud, like,head of the aftercare for the
(27:18):
family. Yeah, she loves it.
She. Loves it.
How wonderful. That's so great.
And I think she's come to a point now where she's realized,
much like myself, that a lot of this healing journey is in
helping other people. You've realized that too.
There's a huge, it's kind of like teaching being a teacher.
And you, you learn the, the, thecontent, the, you know, better,
(27:41):
faster. You learn more about the content
by teaching others. I've, I've come to the
realization that I need to help other people to get outside of
myself. And I think my mom has too.
She could. She helps a lot of people, you
know, a lot of family members. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so great. Yeah.
I know there's definitely healing to be had when you're
ready in being able to be of service to others.
And it definitely was part of myown journey from the beginning.
(28:05):
So I can relate to that as well.Yeah.
Yeah, you talk, you talk a lot about recovery literacy.
Yes, can. You do you want to describe what
what that is and why it's important.
Yeah. So recovery literacy, I mean,
this is about educating as many people as we possibly can to
help them along their journey, no matter what that journey is
(28:27):
and where they're at on that journey or what role they're
playing on the journey, right? So whether that's parents, you
know, coming with questions about their loved ones, their
children, you know, their spouse, family, you know,
marriages and relationships coming to ask about their
spouses, whether that's instructors, teachers coming and
saying, how do I educate my students about this?
(28:50):
Whether that's you on the journey going, I don't even know
where to begin. How do I get from maybe thinking
that I don't need treatment to answering questions that I have
about the concerns that I have and figuring out that I do need
to get to treatment? You know, so recovery literacy
is about really providing education across all walks for
(29:11):
all people, no matter where they're at, so that we can move
from contemplation to action. I love that.
That's amazing. So you've, you've mentioned
you've done a lot of work with military and I presume like PTSD
what, and indigenous communitiesas well, LGBTQ plus populations.
(29:33):
What, what, what, why don't you tell us what is PTSD first of
all? And then like, how does somebody
heal from that or begin to heal from that?
Yeah, I mean, most Simply put, post traumatic stress disorder
can be experienced. You don't have to be in the
military to experience it. Trauma, you know, anything that
that has affected you negatively, that has basically
(29:56):
long lasting repercussions that make it difficult for you to go
through your day-to-day would constitute a potential diagnosis
of the PTSDI had to go through. And I still go through my own,
you know, that's part of my current recovery journey is
navigating some of those symptoms that come back from my
(30:20):
PTSD related to the traumas thatI have encountered.
And they will get, there are triggers that are involved with
them that you have to navigate as well.
And, and, you know, try to learnabout and figure out and then
have a good toolbox ready to go to be able to, you know, apply
and get through whatever it is that you're feeling.
So anybody can experience PTSD and how it progresses is also
(30:48):
unique to each person. Is it something that you
necessarily heal from? I always say healing is
consistent. It's a very, it's not a linear
journey. Recovery is not a linear
journey. It is lifelong, you know, even
with something like grief, right, which can also be a
component of PTSD, You know, youone day it'll be like, I feel
(31:14):
great, this is good. And then tomorrow it'll be like
you feel like you're back at dayone, you know, because of
whatever triggers might have occurred.
So to be able to understand thatyour recovery journey is going
to be unique to you is essential.
And because it's unique to you to have your own unique tools,
(31:35):
and you know, whether that's, again, the compilation of
providers, your own practices, you know, your support system,
your sense of connection is going to make a difference.
Yeah, the, the most important step is, you know, reaching out,
right? Nobody, nobody can read my mind
and I have to ask for help. And that was the hardest part
for sure. Absolutely.
(31:55):
Yeah. Where do you see mental health
advocacy and, and the future of mental health?
Maybe the stigma. I, I, I, you know, I used to
think that the stigma around addiction and, and mental health
would one day there was a possibility that it gets kind of
demolished. I don't think that that's true
anymore. I think it's, it's lessening and
(32:16):
it's getting better as time goeson.
But where do you see the future of all this?
You know, that's such a great question.
I like I said to you, I think, you know, like when I first
started in this field, we, you know, psychology and
psychologists were stigmatized. It was actually, I'm also a
professor and one of the things that would actually show up in
(32:38):
our textbooks for undergrad and that psych one O 1 class was the
journey, the historical journey of what psychology was, where it
started now. So I can literally pinpoint in
media where it started to shift.OK, You can see it in movies.
(33:01):
So we had Frasier come out in the 2000s or, you know, early
1990s somewhere there. And that's when the concept of
being a shrink started to turn over to psychologist and that
being revered. So I'm actually really thankful
(33:23):
for that show because quickly in, you know, in the timeline of
of psychology, that is what helped with the the initial
destigmatization of psychologists and psychology as
a profession. And what I loved also about that
show is that he was what he was a radio talk show host.
(33:43):
So he was putting it out there to the masses and talking about
what we were experiencing psychology, which truly is a
subject that, you know, is in our day-to-day life and how we
function and how we behave and how we react to things.
And he was putting it out there to the masses.
And that also helped with destigmatizing the profession.
(34:04):
So we started to go, you know, from that movement into still
having to navigate silence and stoicism, as I mentioned.
And I feel that in the past, youknow, decade or so, we have made
huge strides to being able to talk about things that we
(34:25):
haven't been able to talk about before and embrace mental health
and healing and recovery in hugeforce.
And I'm so thankful for that. Unfortunately, though, with a
lot of what's going on in the world, I'm seeing a regression.
There is an increase in fear. There's, you know, the fear of,
(34:46):
again, even saying that you needhelp, the fear of being able to
identify in certain ways, whether that's for your race,
ethnicity, gender, etcetera. It's starting to come back
again, and I'm seeing a resurgence of silence as a
result. And that concerns me, although I
(35:07):
will say while that is happening, because we kind of
had this push of being able to, you know, break the silence.
There are so many more people who are true advocates and we're
seeing so much more movement andenergy in being able to have
recovery based services that I remain very hopeful.
(35:30):
So I mean, the future of mental health, from my view, it's not
just clinical, it's collective, and it needs to be deeply
integrative. And I think we can move forward
towards a model and a system anda collective way of thinking
where we're not just treating symptoms, but we're looking at
(35:53):
transformation of our systems, the system that is most
immediately in front of us within our family, all the way
to our community, all the way toour nation, all the way to our
world, Right. So, you know, my hope is that we
can continue to push forward. Yeah.
Yeah, it's true. I would say to like with with
(36:15):
social media, you're seeing a lot more, you know, these these
influencers that are in sobrietyand they're kind of making it
look cool, right? And I think that that's
important. You know, say what you want
about social media, there's a lot of pros and cons to it.
But I think the idea of, I don'tknow, a 20 something or, you
know, 18 year old that's struggling and doesn't know what
(36:35):
to do, seeing this kind of, you know, person that's looks like
they're having fun in recovery and looks like he's making it
kind of cool, if you will. I think that that's very
important. You know, and I know a few here
in Toronto that I've met just inmy time of doing this, this
podcast. And I think that that's
important. Yeah, it's very important.
And I think it's important to identify also kind of like the
(36:57):
two sides to it. I've actually worked with a lot
of athletes and musicians and political figures as well.
And one of the things that is a common theme, unfortunately, is
that it's almost a prerequisite for you to have an issue and
then be in recovery, you know, and that that can then gets
(37:19):
classified as you being in the in Group or now you, you are
truly one of us, you know, like so almost a prerequisite to be a
musician or to be a political figure, an athlete.
And I want to caution everyone to that, you know, so while I'm
very thankful to social media and influencers for being able
(37:40):
to share their story and destigmatize, for sure, I don't
want people to think that this is a cool thing to do and a
prerequisite in order for me to be part of any type of, you
know, classification of group, you know, whether it's a
profession or otherwise. Yeah, yeah.
(38:01):
And I definitely don't recommend.
Yeah, I, I, I'll tell you right now, you know, it's a
progressive disease. And I, I'm a, you know, I'm an
advocate of, of that it does getworse.
You know, when you go back out, you pick up where you left off
it and it does get worse. So I don't recommend that to
anybody. What are some tools and insights
(38:26):
that somebody can walk away with?
You know, they don't know what to do.
They're struggling, they're feeling alone.
You know, nobody gets them. What's something they can do
right now? Go get help.
And if you need something that's, you know, private, you
know, that needs to be quiet foryou to figure things out again,
(38:48):
you know, starting at a place like recovery.com is not a bad
place to start because it's going to give you all the
education that you need and hopefully answer a lot of
questions that you might have. But more than that, also like do
the search, you know, find the support system.
That's the most important part is like, find the support system
that works for you, your friends, your family.
(39:09):
Saying this is what I need to do.
I need help getting there, reaching out to a provider,
whether it's your PCP, because you've got 1, you know, and
saying, I, I don't know where tobegin.
Please help. You know, like that, just saying
that first line is so important and so crucial.
I can't recommend that enough. And it will, it will be
(39:31):
challenging, but it will have major rewards in the long run.
So get the help, yeah? Yeah, awesome.
OK, I want to get some lightninground questions from you Sure.
You know, say the first thing that comes to mind or or maybe.
Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, sure.
Right now, what's one word that defines recovery?
(39:53):
01 word that defines recovery. That's a hard one.
Yeah. You got me right at the
beginning when he comes in my mind.
That's why it's like that. Healing connection.
Yeah. Love it.
Yeah. What's a favorite book or
resource for trauma education? Bessel van der Cokes, The body
(40:15):
keeps score. Yeah.
Oh, I've heard that. I've heard that's good.
Yeah. The body keeps score.
I gotta read that. Really good, yeah.
My therapist recommended it to me.
Maybe I should read it. Yeah.
You can do it on Audible too, soif you need to listen to it,
it's really good. Yeah, yeah.
What's a healing tool that you swear by?
Oh, meditation for me is my non negotiable.
Yeah, yeah. That's a good one.
(40:39):
And then finally, what is the most misunderstood thing about
brain health? Well, I mean, we hear it in the
language. You're so crazy, right?
Be and that's part of the stigmathat I feel we've, you know, had
to overcome in that timeline of,you know, psychology as a as a
(41:02):
profession and as a field, people have equated brain health
to something separate. But it's no different than going
to the cardiologist and get treatment for your heart issues.
Your brain is an organ in your body.
So you know, when we're talking about brain health and we're
talking about mental health, it it really needs to be no
(41:24):
different in our minds as going to the PCP or going to the
specialist for an ear, nose, throat problem or a heart
problem or a gut problem, because the brain is literally
what's keeping you alive. So brain health is vital and you
know, it needs to be considered as part of the human body
(41:44):
treatment. So mental health and Wellness is
part of that. Yeah, yeah.
And and this, you know, this idea of rub some dirt on it or,
you know, don't show emotion. I think, you know, as men,
particularly in my experience, that's been kind of the way we
were brought up as you know, youjust kind of rub some dirt on it
and move on, right. You don't talk about it like you
said. And then there's this family
(42:06):
dynamic too. I like that you said that at the
beginning too. I wanted to comment on that, you
know, no, but we don't talk about the family to people
outside the family. And it's not culture specific.
It's not, it's family specific to your point, right.
So yeah, the help is out there if you're willing, and all it
takes is that one first step. Yeah, absolutely.
(42:27):
Absolutely, yeah. Amazing.
Thank you so much for your time today, Doctor.
I appreciate it. I learned a lot.
There's a lot of good information in there.
And where can we find you at or where can we find?
I mean, recovery.com is pretty easy and straightforward.
Yeah, it took Me 2 seconds. Absolutely.
Yeah, recovery.com, beautiful resource for me personally, My
(42:47):
social handle is at the officialDoctor Mala.
My personal website isdoctormala.net.
Yeah, perfect. Amazing.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me,
Anthony. It was a pleasure.
Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
(43:08):
informational and motivational purposes only.
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional
you are.
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