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July 11, 2025 50 mins

Join us as Susan Raphael, a mental health and addiction clinician, shares insights on teen addiction and family recovery. Learn about enabling vs. supporting, the importance of validating statements, and navigating the fentanyl crisis. Discover practical tools for parents and loved ones from her book, 'What's Wrong with My Teen?'


Addiction and mental health clinician Susan Raphael, ICADC, is the

founder and principal of Sustainable Recovery Counselling Services in

Toronto. Susan specializes in addiction and recovery. Areas of expertise

include treating individuals and families with a special focus on teenagers,

young adults and parents.

She is a referral clinician in the National Basketball Association,

NBA/NBPA Clinicians’ Network and is Internationally Certified by the

Canadian Addiction Counselors Certification Federation (CACCF), the gold

standard of addiction counsellors in Canada and Internationally.

Susan holds an honours degree from York University, and attended the

University of Toronto for graduate studies. Her lived experience with

addiction and long-term sustainable recovery add to her expertise.

🌐 www.SustainableRecovery.ca

📧 susan@susanraphael.ca

📞 416-271-1117

🔗LinkedIn Profile

📸 Instagram: @sustainable__recovery

YouTube: @susan_raphael

📚 Guiding Families in Addiction & Mental Health Recovery. Author of,

"What's Wrong with My Teen? Finding Answers to Teenage Addiction and

Family Crisis”.

You and your teen are in crisis. You don’t have to be.

You are not alone. There is hope. There is a solution. Packed with practical

strategies and step-by-step guidance that empowers you for real change,

What’s Wrong with My Teen? demystifies the complex interplay of

addiction, mental health issues, and typical teenage behavior. Learn the

secrets to empathetic, judgment-free listening. Acquire priceless tools for

engaging in difficult discussions, with sample letters and scripts for critical

conversations. Gain comprehensive techniques for establishing and


enforcing healthy boundaries. Discover the power of natural

consequences and compassionate language.

In What’s Wrong with My Teen? Susan Raphael draws on her vast

experience with families like yours. Finally—a clear, actionable plan for

navigating today’s greatest challenges and turning them into tomorrow’s

triumphs.

Available everywhere books are sold www.WhatsWrongWithMyTeen.com


📋 Resources for Parents and Caregivers

1. 📞 Families for Addiction Recovery (FAR – Canada)

What they do:

• National charity run by parents, offering peer support for families of

someone struggling with addiction

• Free parent-to-parent phone support (Individually or via Peer-to-Peer

sessions): trained parent volunteers using CRAFT/MI/ACT techniques

• Weekly online drop-in parent support groups

• Advocacy and public education on addiction and policy reform

Contact Info:

• Phone (toll‑free): 1‑855‑377‑6677 ext 207

• Hours: Mon–Fri 12 pm–3 pm EDT; Wed 7 pm–9 pm EDT

• Email: info@farcanada.org

• Website: www.farcanada.org

2.☀ Sunnybrook Family Navigation Project (FNP)

What they do:

• Clinician-led service for youth (13–26) and their families

• Provides expert guidance and connection to mental health &

substance‑use services across the GTA

• No referrals, no fees, no need for a diagnosis

Contact Info:

• Phone (toll‑free): 1‑800‑380‑9367

• Email: familynavigation@sunnybrook.ca

• Service Area: Greater Toronto Area

3. 🧭 HOPE (Helping Other Parents Everywhere)

What they do:

• Ontario-wide volunteer-run peer support for parents/guardians of

teens & young adults

• Weekly confidential support groups: virtual and re-opening in-person

• Peer phone support, workshops, and access to online tools

Contact Info:

• Phone (toll‑free): 1‑866‑492‑1299

• Email: info@hope4parents.ca

• Website: hope4parents.ca

• Fees:

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
I've always, I've always got a lot of my information from
podcasts, like a lot of self help, mental health, health and
fitness stuff. So I just, I wanted to find a
way to get back and I was in treatment again this this past.
So I'm almost at six months again, which?
Is congratulations. Which is a miracle.
Thank you. Where'd you go this time?

(00:46):
I went to a place in Aurora for treatment.
Yeah, instead of. Yeah, yeah, instead of.
I went to the States twice before that and I've since
learned that it wasn't because of the quality that they sent me
there, it was because I couldn'tescape and come back home
easier. Which is which?
Is really. Valid because when I went to
this last time I did leave because I was like fed up with

(01:09):
the all the I don't know, I tookmy will back, I think, right?
It wasn't good enough for me, the treatment center, right?
Well, especially if you've been to some good ones.
That's it's tough for. Family disease.
Yeah, good for you. Yeah.
Thank you. Thanks so much, Susan, for
coming down. I appreciate it.
Yeah. You know, I was referred to your

(01:30):
name by a fellow member of recovery and he mentioned that,
you know, I had to have you on. And then you show up here and
I'm like, I, I know you. I've seen you before, which is
like, it's an amazing thing about recovery, right?
It is. You hang out long enough and you
start to see some familiar faces, right?
And there's that sense of community and belonging.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like I always say

(01:52):
it's, you know, it says in our in the in literature that we're
like the the, the surviving members of a Titanic, right.
We all have that common peril where no matter where I go, I
see people that are in recovery and I'm just, there's that like.
Yeah, so much. It doesn't have to be explained
that it's like you just. Oh, OK.
Yeah, I know what you've been through, even though I don't

(02:13):
know anything about you, right? I know that you've suffered to
some degree and now you have a common, a solution, right and a
way out. I just want to kick off with
this before I, I start letting you introduce yourself because
the show's not about me, even though I like to think that it
is. We talking, you know, talking
about the camaraderie in the, the community.
I was in Vancouver this past weekend for the, an

(02:36):
international conference. There was a bunch of Alcoholics
together, 35,000 to be exact. And I'm a little bit emotionally
hungover from it because it's a lot, right?
There's a lot of, you know, there was people there, they did
this thing where they took a bunch of names of, of people
that had 50 plus years of sobriety to go up and speak and
they pulled them out of a hat, 12 people.

(02:58):
They had said that there was over 200 people there with 50
plus years of sobriety. It's incredible.
Like, it blew my mind, right? And I feel like there's a point
in my sobriety where I've been pissed at that.
And I'm not like, I can't relateto these people, but you know, I
was taught in recovery to just listen for the similarities and
not the differences. And I can tell you right now,

(03:21):
every single person that startedtalking, I was like, huh, yeah,
felt that way. Yep, did that.
Wow, that helped. You know, a lot of them talked
the, the, the thing that I got from the conference.
So if there was, you know, 1 theme, overarching theme, it was
service. That was the the thing I kept
hearing over and over again thatthese guys and girls, these
people never stopped working with newcomers and new

(03:43):
Alcoholics and, and people struggling, right?
And that was powerful for me because the thing that these
conferences can do is they can make you reflect on yourself and
like, am I doing this right? Where are the gaps in my
program? Because I don't wanna go back
out there again. Like I really don't.
It's a mirror. It's a mirror.
And all the people it takes to put on a convention at that
size, right? Yeah, they're all wearing pink

(04:05):
shirts. There was like thousands of
them. Yeah, they stood out, right.
So, yeah, I just wanted to sharethat because it would, you know,
if you're listening, there's a lot of people out there that are
going through this, all ages, all ethnicities, all religions.
And it's a beautiful thing. You know, they're, they, they've
been through, somebody's been through what you've been
through, if not worse. I've found, you know, there's

(04:27):
somebody has gone through it andthen battled through it, right?
Yeah, experts at all levels, yeah.
So I'm really excited to talk about this today.
You're in recover yourself and you've written a book, which I
love the cover of. I haven't gotten a chance to
dive into it yet because I just got it the other day, but I'm
excited to read this. My wife even said to me, she

(04:48):
goes, 'cause she, she always wants, she's like, you need to
have more people on that talk about the family, right?
Because she still needs help. She's been, she's been through a
lot, right? She's watched me go through a
lot of she's seen me at my high,you know, in the seven years
that I had of, of sobriety and recovery.
And then she's been through the lows and stuck by me, right?
And she, she gets a lot out of this.

(05:08):
So I'm excited to talk about this.
But your book is called What's Wrong with my teen, and it's
about finding and answers to teenage addiction and family
crisis. I think this is so important.
I'm so happy that we're going totalk about the same.
I'm happy that you wrote this. I'm really.
Excited to be here and talk about it.
Yeah, and talk with you. Yeah.

(05:29):
So I'm going to shut up now because I really want to hear
from you. Why don't you start off with a
little bit about your story and what brought you into recovery
to in the first place? Sure.
Well, my name is Susan Raphael and today I'm a mental health
and addiction clinician in a small private practice in
Toronto. And I've been working in this

(05:50):
profession for over 20 years. And it came on the back of
studying psychology when I was younger.
And I always had those questionstrying to really trying to
understand myself and how I didn't feel like I fit in the
world. And academia was a easy place to

(06:11):
kind of hide with all my ideas and all my creativity and
curiosity. And at the same time, I had the
double life where I was going out and I was using chemicals
from a pretty young age, like 16, and drinking.
And it was all in the facilitation of going out and

(06:33):
having fun and dancing and back up a bit.
I had an eating disorder to start with.
So that was ever since I can remember.
I was using my body to change the way that I felt and then
using substance to change the way that I felt.
So I came into recovery in 99. I had been on Skid Row in the

(06:55):
downtown Lower East Side of Vancouver, homeless in shelters
for out of the better part of a year, a year and a half.
And I'm so grateful for that system and the policeman that
offered help and the policeman that were consequential and
handcuffed me and threw me in the back of a Paddy wagon and

(07:17):
brought me to a shelter one night because they determined I
was the problem. And I'm grateful for the
services that I had to get me eventually back on my feet.
It was family who interceded, intervened and brought me back
to Toronto. And I still drank for a couple
more years. And drugs were part of my story

(07:37):
in and out really in the facilitation of drinking more.
And when I couldn't do drugs anymore, I realized how much of
alcohol dependent I was. I started having seizures in and
out of hospital, emergency roomsproblems, unemployable right and

(07:58):
took a lot of hostages and was taken hostage and etcetera,
etcetera. So all of the things that we
hear about and I had the opportunity to go to detox and
heard about a treatment center and that time I stayed in detox.
I don't know what made that timedifferent, but I stayed and I, I

(08:18):
learned that I wasn't a bad person.
I was a sick person. And with all the psychology and
self knowledge I had that wasn't, that was really
comforting because I realized I felt like a bad person and I had
a lot of shame and guilt and remorse.
Like how did a nice girl like meend up on Skid Row?
There was a huge gap from where I I started to where I ended up

(08:45):
and I've been thankful to be sober ever since.
I've struggled with other thingsin 26 1/2 years but I had to get
the eating disorder in check andlearn to have relationships and
but I've been grateful to have aprogram of recovery and be in
long term recovery since then. It's amazing.

(09:06):
Wow, it really is such a simple solution for such complicated
individuals who think we're so unique.
Yeah. Nobody's like me.
Yeah. Yeah, and nobody understands.
Me if you, you know, you didn't go to Skid Row, so you're not
like me, right? You didn't do this or you know
what I mean? There's all these things that
separate us and that's why, you know, looking for the

(09:26):
similarities I was taught was one of the best things to do
when I came in. And following some direction
without, you know, having someone take control of my life,
but following in the direction was helpful.
It gave me structure, discipline, purpose, a sense of
belonging. And, and then six months later,
I started working at the treatment center that I went to

(09:47):
in an administrative role. And that happened very
serendipitously. And so I started to believe, you
know, that there were things that were stronger, more
powerful than I was that were helping to direct me into into
better choices, healthier choices.
And that was a great place to bein early recovery.

(10:08):
And that that kind of ignited myinterest in being a counselor.
I always wanted to be a counselor since I was a little
kid. I was the listener.
I was the quiet one who was listening and asking questions.
And then I was the bartender andI was listening and asking
questions over the bar. So it's a it was a dream come

(10:29):
true to start helping people andgetting certified and getting
all the necessary things in order in order to counsel and
help others. So what made you choose the the
family path, dealing with loved ones of addicts instead of
sticking with, you know, just the addicts?
Yeah, it's a, it's a great question because when I was

(10:51):
deciding what I wanted to do in terms of counseling, people
would say to me that I had to choose.
I had to either be working with the family or working with the,
you know, substance use disordered individual.
And I liked both. And when I started working with
young people, I really liked working with young people.

(11:12):
I related to that. I related to being that teenager
in crisis 'cause I was a teen incrisis silently and I I'd meet,
I started working in an aftercare role and working with
these teenagers who would come back from treatment programs and
sometimes young adults too. I use teenager quite loosely

(11:33):
since the brain's still developing till we're 25 or so.
And so so that ignited my my passion for working with teens
and working with parents was more challenging for me.
Although I was a loved one myself, most of the people I was
in relationship with prior to getting into recovery had
addiction issues. So I was, I was, I understood

(11:57):
what it was like and I dated some in in my early days in
recovery and people that relapsed.
And so I did family programming for myself.
I went to Al Anon support and and saw it.
You know, that family perspective of we can't control
it, we can't cure it, and we didn't 'cause it, right?

(12:18):
It's not our fault, 'cause there's so much guilt.
So eventually I sort of transitioned into wanting to
work with the family piece. And that family system is so
important. As you said in the promo
yesterday for this podcast, it'sa family disease.
It's a family disorder and it's a family recovery too, for those

(12:39):
that choose it. And really the title of the
book, What's Wrong with My Teen?It's a hook to because perhaps
there's something wrong with everyone.
It's not just the teen. And if we're willing to
courageously look at our part inthings and how we might be part

(12:59):
of the system, not necessarily the problem, but a system and a
family is a system and it functions with certain rules.
And sometimes they're silent rules.
People don't speak about feelings or people don't talk
about what's really going on. So I love a challenge.
And working with the parents wasmore of a challenge for me.

(13:20):
And I developed a tremendous amount of of compassion and
capacity for parents and loved ones, anxiety and guilt and kind
of miss, if you will, misplaced energy when if they put some of
that energy into their own self-care, it would actually be
better for them and probably better for their loved one.

(13:45):
That's a difficult shift to helppeople make.
Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.
And well said. And I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm just,
I'm just, I'm just grateful that, you know, I'm grateful
that I'm, I'm able to talk about.
I think that this is so helpful for people because I feel like

(14:06):
there's a lot of answers out there for people in addiction
and, and alcoholism. If you choose to go and find
them, right? There's a lot of solutions.
It's it's pretty apparent, you know, on the social media, like
there's a lot of that, right? But there's a huge gap between
my kid won't like he's fucking up my family, right?
Like, what do I do? You know, and you mentioned

(14:27):
working at AII recently got a job at a treatment center.
And that's something that I recently realized that I wanted
to do too. I need to stay close to to new
people. I need to stay close to
recovery. Another reason why I started
this podcast because I don't want to go back out, like I
said, right? It's not fun out there.
And so I mean, like working with, with so, OK, now, so I, I

(14:52):
was in Vancouver, I got a message.
I get in contact with people to get them in the treatment
center. That's my role, right, is to, to
facilitate that. And I've been getting a lot of
parents talking to a lot of parents, right?
And so this is very timely for me, right?
I got a, a super long, you know,text conversation with this,
with this mother. And I was going to read it but

(15:14):
it's really long. I'll, I'll, yeah, I know those.
I'm. Familiar with those?
There's. So much coming out.
Like you don't even know where to start, right?
And you know, I don't, I'm not trying to solve anything when
I'm doing this. I'm realizing that.
But she, she mentioned a lot of what I was going through with
her, with her daughter and the the psychosis and I was getting

(15:36):
goosebumps as I was reading it because she was telling me all
these things that her daughter was experiencing and seeing and
the paranoia and with, with crack and and cocaine, right.
And I was just like, Oh my God. Like you just feel for them,
right? You feel for them, But you do
your best to try and facilitate and get them in, right?

(15:56):
That's definitely the hardest thing is to, to get that shift
for, for loved ones to kind of work on themselves, right.
Yeah. How do you kind of how do you
approach that? I know that's a really, you
know, big question, but today, how do you approach that, I
guess? Well, if if you tallied all the
calls that help lines and treatment centers got, primarily

(16:19):
they're from loved ones. We're trying to help those that
we love and and, you know, facilitate getting them help.
So that says a lot. It says a lot about how
important the role of the familymember is, because often they
do. People do go to treatment

(16:39):
because of family, love, support, leverage that.
You know, I would say forced, but.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, yeah.
And it's. I was forced, I'll say that.
There you go, there you go. And it's, you know, leverage can
also be leverage where it's a loving act to to support

(17:00):
someone. But there there are ways to
support. So I meet people where they're
at and usually. So this the book came from my
best practices. What's tried, tested and true
for most people when they come, for most parents and caregivers,
when they come to me, they, they, they struggle with what is

(17:21):
actually help and support and what is enabling.
And they've had terms thrown at them like they're codependent
and they're enablers. And these are not, you know,
we're all codependent. So to pathologize something that
we all experience and we all enable different things.
I enable my clients sometimes too, right?

(17:44):
Like we are, we're, we're softies and we care about
people. So really meeting them where
they're at and giving them some tangible tools, some things that
wherever they're at, they can work on enabling is usually a
piece of it. Understanding consequences,

(18:05):
understanding natural consequences and letting those
happen. And often parents will think
that that's very punitive to leta natural consequence happen.
For example, little Billy goes to school and he's forgot his
homework and mom or dad or caregiver runs to school and

(18:25):
brings his homework. Is Billy learning the lesson
about his responsibility for hisown homework, Right.
Like, so it's, it's, it's helping them understand what
their role is and how they can create conditions for change and

(18:46):
not try to control. They're so used to controlling.
There's not a lot of guides out there for teenagers with mental
health and addictions. There's a lot of baby raising
books. There's a lot of toddler raising
books. But mental health and addiction
for teens and young adults is anarea that AIDS.
It's something people don't really want to talk about the

(19:06):
struggles they're having with their teens.
Parents tend to talk about all the great things their kids are
doing. We all do.
We talk about the great things that are happening.
So it's it's important to meet them where they're at and then
just stay with them on their journey, not lecture them, not
reprimand them. They're already feeling so much

(19:29):
stress and pressure. There's pressure on parents
today like never before and there's pressure on young people
like never before. So understanding that they're
they're where they're at and trying to move them whatever
forward looks like for them in their situation.

(19:50):
Yeah, I, I think that that's, I mean, that was well said the the
analogy about, you know, forgetting your homework at
like, are you really giving yourchild life lessons and and
preparing right. And I, I understand too, that
that's a very, you know. Small example in this context as
well, but as you were talking there, just thinking about the,
the fentanyl thing, right, this fentanyl crisis, I want to ask

(20:15):
you how that's impacted your work now with teens and, and
parents worrying about, you know, their kids overdosing and
dying. And then like, I don't, I don't
know that there's an answer to this, but I was, so I was kicked
out of my house and that was theonly way I went into treatment,
right? If that happened, that was 10
years ago. You know, if that happened
today, I don't know if my parents, it was hard for them in

(20:37):
the first place to do that, right?
Because they don't know what's going to happen to me, right?
But I mean, like when it comes to to, you know, kind of letting
go, how do you, how do you navigate the, the my son might
die tomorrow? Absolutely.
And I, I want to clarify, were you kicked out of your house or

(20:59):
was your behavior such that it didn't allow you to live in the
house? That's a.
Good way to frame it. Yeah, so.
I need perspective shifts like that.
I I never, I never tell parents to kick their kid out of the
house. However, if again, if Little
Anthony was living according to Little Anthony's rules, I don't

(21:21):
know how old you were 20 years ago, but, and not according to
the house rules. Was that fair?
Was that, you know, in line withthe values of the family system
or were you somewhat being, being cushioned from the natural
consequences of, of your illness?
Maybe they knew, you know, So it's it's all every situation is

(21:44):
unique and where people are at is unique, but there's a lot of
steps between kicking someone out and asking of them some
simple kind of contributions to a system that are not, you know,
so there there's parents will gothere like I'm never going to

(22:05):
kick my kid out. And it might be years before the
consequences help them determinethat actually their their child
is choosing to live under their roof and they can die under I've
I've had people die at home as well.
But in this one pill can kill environment that we are living

(22:28):
in today. It is terrifying.
And, and there's, there's no easy answer.
It's a toxic, toxic supply out there.
And it's, it's very scary. So parents need to be informed,
awareness needs to be raised. And that's why I wanted my book

(22:50):
to be out there so that people could have the awareness so that
we're having these discussions, so that we're telling them what
to look for and, and what to be really concerned about and what
to, you know, letting go is a whole book in and of itself.
It's so difficult. Letting go is the hardest thing
anybody will ever do. And it's a process.

(23:10):
It's not a absolute. It's a daily reminder of what
you know, what's that cost if I don't maintain my own peace and
serenity unconditionally like. And also too like how imposing
more rules, you know, forcing doing all the controlling can
actually push addicts further away.

(23:31):
Absolutely. Sorry.
So looking at influence and how we can influence as opposed to
control, I know these are subtleshifts, right?
Like addiction and mental healthcrises are so counterintuitive
for loved ones. Because when someone's I'll, you
want to hang on, you want to help, you want to.

(23:55):
Support. You want to do things to soften
life for them. Those exact things make fuel
addictive behaviors and they fuel mental health challenges
too. So it's understanding that kind
of continuum with what's safe struggle and what is too much,
you know, what am I not going toallow my child to to face?

(24:20):
Where am I going to be that thatsafety net for them and and
where do I have to step back andlet them struggle to find a
solution? And you know, a rock bottom too,
if you will, right? Like I, you know, I believe I
had to hit some sort of rock bottom.

(24:40):
It was, you know, usually financially, but there was also
an emotional thing there where Iwas just like looking around at
the world and, you know, like this last relapse, I came to a
point where I felt like, I felt like such an outcast from
society again, but to A to a very intense degree.
You know, I, I described this inone of my last episodes, but my

(25:02):
last bout this time around, hopefully, God willing today,
you know, I was in a getting kicked out of a hotel.
And I just remember, I remember very vividly sitting in the
lobby of the hotel waiting to get kicked out because I
couldn't afford it anymore. And you know, I'd run out of
money. Like I said, had a whole shit
load of drugs still on me. But I had no desire to continue
on anymore because I was sittingin the the lobby of this hotel

(25:24):
and watching people just kind ofwalk by and live their life.
Day-to-day people used to call them day people when?
I was. Using.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hated those guys when I came
out of after hours clubs and I was just like, man, like I used
to be like that. I used to be just going like
having normal problems and, you know, dealing with normal
things. And my life has just become this

(25:46):
like how do I get to the next drug?
How do I get to the next drink? How do I, you know, survive
today? And so I I had to get to that.
And so again, I got How did you frame it again instead of
getting kicked out? I wasn't living in accordance to
the house rules. Yeah, I like your it was, it was
about your behaviors and and that they were actually treating
you probably a little bit with kit gloves because nobody else

(26:08):
would have been able to live in the house at 23 doing the things
you were doing perhaps. No, you're right.
Possibly. I like.
Yeah, you're right. And so that happened again, this
time with my wife. You know, she we were going to
counselling and she did the samething right Where she politely
asked me that you can't live under this roof while doing
these behaviors. Right.
So it's a choice and words matter.

(26:31):
And I have a lot of scripts in my book because words choices
matter and tone matters. And at the same time, we all
make mistakes. So if, if a parent says
something, if if anybody says something that's not
appropriate, just say own it. Sorry I made a mistake, messed
up. This is new to me.

(26:51):
I don't know what I'm doing right, Right.
Like it is like I've never dealt.
With there's no, there, there isno manual other than mine, No
for, for, for doing this stuff, but having some humility that
parents don't have to have all the answers.
And they, it's so these are they're, they're subtle shifts.
But when parents start to get these shifts, I can see it like,

(27:14):
and they'll come back to a session and all of a sudden it's
like the penny has dropped. And I'm thinking what?
What did I say? What did I do?
It was like you have shifted andwe can't explain how, but it's
like things are sinking in for them where they start to say no
to their child or start to stop financially supporting 1 aspect.

(27:36):
And it doesn't have to be this all or nothing, right?
Like just stop supporting 1 aspect of their lifestyle.
You don't have to cut them off. It doesn't have to be this tough
love. But frankly, love is firm.
Your wife, what she had to do was loving and and it was, it
was firm too. It was like you have a choice.

(27:57):
If you want to stay here, you can't be using it.
So yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, I remember to her thing, 'cause she had some more
knowledge about 12 step by this point, her thing too was like,
you need to, to go to meetings and you know, you not only do
you need to not use here, right?But to your point, you know, you

(28:20):
need to also partake in the recovery community because
that's what works for you. And she was right, right.
Like that. I found that that's the only
thing that worked for me. Therapy and then this, this sort
of 12 step recovery. I, I always say this, it's not
for everybody. It's not the same thing.
I get some Flack sometimes, right?
But not everyone has a good experience with it and that's
fine right there. There's many paths of the.

(28:41):
Recovery, there are many paths, more so than there were ten
years ago, than there were 26 years ago.
And there's medications that canassist with the right, you know,
facilitation, the right doctors,addiction doctors.
And there are many, many tools today that will will sort of
soften the path to recovery for people.

(29:06):
You mentioned, you know, the thescripts in your book and I love
doing this where, you know, I haven't gotten a chance to start
reading it yet, but I'm excited to because as my wife pointed
out to me that she's like this can really help you, you know,
and really help you understand your parents and like their
perspective. So I truly believe that this is

(29:27):
not just for a parent with a teen.
Like I think everyone that dealswith addiction can benefit from
this. And I've already realized that
by what I do is I flip open the first page and that's the page I
was meant to read this morning. So I'll read it now and then I
want to hear, you know, your kind of feedback on it.
But so I, I flipped open and it was consistent and purposeful.

(29:47):
Validation helps to build relationships.
You are telling someone that they are important and the
relationship with you matters. So to your point, I'm not just
taking someone out, right Examples.
And I love this examples of validating statements, right?
So like things I can actually use in my life, right?
One, this must be difficult for you.
I believe in you. Tell me more about blank dot dot
dot, right. What do you need from me us

(30:09):
right now? I'm proud of you or you can be
proud of yourself. I love you.
We know this time period circumstance is difficult for
you. How can we make it easier?
We care about you and what is happening to you.
It's no wonder you feel this way.
A personal favorite of yours. Yeah, no.
Wonder you feel this way. I am we are sorry for what
happened to you and I am we are so glad you are here.

(30:30):
That might be hard for somebody to you're right now that the
addict in their life is screwingup, you know, the family
dynamic, whatever you're doing this thing like you can feel
very victimized right when when your son or daughter or loved
one is using. So I've completely taken it out
of context. So do you want to add some
context to that? Like when do we when do we
enter? When do we start to kind of

(30:51):
start doing these validating statements?
Anytime, anytime it's we're, we're all great at pointing out
the things that aren't going well.
And it's human nature, we tend to say 10 negatives before we
say a positive. So being mindful that validating
is important for for the developing mind of a teenager,

(31:15):
the love language is words of affirmation.
They want their parents to support them, yet so parents
struggle with validating becausethey feel that it's condoning
behavior. So and give an example, it's,
you know, maybe a kid comes homewith a with a report card and,

(31:44):
and maybe they've passed some courses, maybe they've failed
some. So rather than just saying you
failed, what's wrong with you toto balance it with now I see
there's some positives here and there's some room for
improvement. Do you want to talk about it
right? I'm never good at these on the

(32:05):
spot examples, but there's always a place for validating
statements. And if you can't validate, then
take a step back then that then deal with the feelings that are
getting in the way of that. Like if you're feeling angry and
resentful or harmed that you're maybe your, your teenager has
stayed out all night again and you're frustrated and you're in

(32:29):
all that. So that's a time to go to a
meeting or call Susan or call Anthony and, and have someone to
chat with and to deescalate and,and to tend to your own feelings
so that you can come back to a place of compassion where you
can validate. And then the bit about
condoning, like you can say, I understand why you might be

(32:54):
smoking weed because all your friends are.
I really get that this is a timewhere where a lot of young
people your age are doing such things and it's not allowed in
this house. So how are we going to deal with
that? So you can validate, you can
support, you can understand without condoning a behavior.

(33:16):
So they're really operating in two different realms.
But parents can, can confuse that and think that if I say, Oh
yeah, all your friends are smoking weed, that somehow
that's giving you permission to go and smoke weed or that I'm,
I'm, you know, desensitizing youto it.
Or they'll say, just don't hang around with those friends,

(33:38):
'cause I know they want, they want to think that it's always
the peers, the other peers. We all do.
We want to think that there's some other influence that it's
not. So does that make sense?
Like. The validating and I didn't
raise you this way right or thisisn't the person the man woman,
girl, whatever I I raised you tobe so it must be everybody else

(34:00):
right that. Actually.
That leads me into my next question because my parents, I
think, went through a bit of this too.
Is the denial right? The denial of my my son can't be
smoking Max. Like we didn't.
There's no way he's, you know, snoring coke.
We didn't raise him. No one in the family.
Like what? How did this even happen?
None of his friends even do it. How did he get into this?
Do you deal with a lot of denialand how do you approach that

(34:23):
with parents? Yes, lots of denial and lots of
parents come in feeling a lot ofguilt and responsibility for
behaviors that really don't haveanything to do with them per SE.

(34:44):
So we know that addiction is a biopsychosocial condition,
mental health issues. Similarly, drugs and alcohol can
exacerbate mental health symptoms.
Parents also, and I talked aboutthis in my book, Will will come
from the perspective that it's mental health and it's not an

(35:06):
addiction. Somehow in their frame of mind,
addiction is, you know, we know it has a lot more stigma and is
not as accepted as perhaps having a mental health issue.
So, yeah, parents come in with alot of denial and yeah, I'll,

(35:30):
I'll just validate that they're there.
They're you're here. I I got a call from a reference
this week as someone who had seen me perhaps a couple of
years ago. They came to see you a couple of
years ago. OK.
So they're back. Great.
Good for them. What's what's changed in the
couple of years? Like would have been great if
they had stayed. They didn't.

(35:51):
That's OK, they're here now. Just like I didn't get sober the
very first time I went to detox.Sadly there were multiple
visits. So there's a lot of denials.
There's a lot of rationalizing that he's using or she's using
because of their anxiety. And while that may be the case,

(36:12):
now we have 2 problems because we've got substance induced
anxiety plus whatever anxiety was there before.
So it, it doesn't really matter how we got to where we're at
today. From today on, we're going to
start on a path of a new solution, a new plan.

(36:34):
And, but I'll listen to all of that.
I'll listen to how they feel. It's not their child that it's
the peer group. I'll help.
I'll help them understand how tokind of balance that out a bit
without, you know, calling them out.
It's like I'm I'm very gentle. Yeah, yeah.

(36:56):
And I'm sure as you start to getto know clients like my
therapist, yeah, you start to call them out.
And she, my, mine doesn't leave.You know, Paulie's the best.
She doesn't leave anything on the table.
No, don't unturned she'll. Call me on all my shit.
Some of them might even be tossed, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, tossed them exactly.Usually people come to their own
understanding and, and I kind ofjust hope get them there.

(37:18):
And it's not like I have some, you know, amazing ability to
understand. I just like I've I've heard it
before. Their exit strategy might be
slightly different, but I've generally heard their concern or
and that's why it was helpful towrite what I wrote because I
knew where parents get stuck andI know where I get stuck as a

(37:40):
loved one. I'm still in it too.
It's. Like you said, it's a daily.
It's a daily, yeah. It's a daily, daily maintenance.
What where where do you see people getting stuck the most,
would you say? Like, what's the common place
that people just can't get over?Sometimes it's enabling versus

(38:01):
supporting and commonly it is letting go.
I mean, I, I tend to not even say letting go until we're well
into our relationship because itsounds kind of wooy wooy.
But I will teach them how to letgo.
We, we come at it through the back door.
I'll teach them how to stand up for themselves, which is also

(38:25):
letting go how to put their own Peace of Mind first, how to do
their own work so that they're modeling that to their children,
which is super beneficial. Tell if you're if you're
listening to this and you're going to therapy or you're going
to Al Anon or you're going to families for addiction recovery

(38:47):
or you're going to hope, which is another parent support.
They're they're amazing and I'm happy to provide resources.
Yeah, I'm going to link those. I've never heard of them.
I'm going to link those in the show notes.
And Sunnybrook Family NavigationProject is a wonderful resource
for for families and most of them have generated out of
parents and loved ones who have created services because they

(39:09):
realized there was such a gap inthe system.
But if, if you're, you know, I lost my train of thought there,
But if you're going to those like that, you need to be doing
that for yourself and, and working.
And, and that's a, that's the toughest shift, I think for.
And again, it doesn't have to bethis, your, your adolescence

(39:31):
brain isn't developed. So they're thinking very much in
black and white. I would encourage parents and
and caregivers to think in the Gray area.
You're not kicking them out. Maybe you're setting a curfew,
See where it goes. Try it for a month or two.
Try it for a week or two. Maybe it crashes and burns, but

(39:53):
you're not kicking them out. You're just inching towards a
little bit more of a guideline that you can live with because
you've got to put your head on the pillow at the end of the
day, right? You're working.
Parents are working hard. And if I've learned anything
that's not happening at all right when like the you're not
getting. Sleep sometimes, Sometimes, so

(40:13):
often parents are not getting a good night's sleep because
they're so worried and the pressure or they're maybe
they're their child is on the streets or couch surfing or or
whatever. And they're still not, you know,
they're still not getting a goodnight's sleep.
So, so to put some energy into getting support for themselves

(40:35):
so that they can have a a broader capacity to deal with
the crisis that's still that they're still in.
Does that happen a lot? Do you, do you find that clients
come in like I don't even know where my kid is, right?
Like where do you go from that point?
Because I had a parent reach outto me and was like, I haven't
seen my kid in four years. Like he's like in his 20s and

(40:56):
what do I do? Like what do I do right?
Is there like system set up to do to deal with that?
I don't know if you know the answer to that or or maybe just
you can talk about your experience with.
Well, a lot, a lot of times someparents will want to cut off a
cell phone, for example, if theyare, if that's something they're
providing. And, and I always think it's,
it's helpful for people to have a way to connect.

(41:19):
And, and if, if you're in that early stage of crisis to tell
your loved ones that, look, I'm,you're always going to have, I'm
always going to respond to your communications.
It might not be in the middle ofthe night because I put my sleep
first. I will always be there for you

(41:41):
at, you know, at some at a levelthat honors my own Peace of Mind
and serenity. So to have some of these, it'll
always be here for you. And it, it might be, I might
have to take a step back because, because I love you too
much to, to keep on messing up or whatever the case is.

(42:02):
But to maintain connection at ata level that you can, that you
can live with. It doesn't mean you're enabling.
It doesn't mean you're fueling behaviors that are, that are not
healthy. It means you're staying
connected at any cost. So for someone who's not
connected with their child, thatis, I mean, that's terribly

(42:25):
scary. They, they usually do show up or
surface if it's a temporary kindof thing, if it's a matter of
years, I mean, there's, there's a lot of grief and loss work
there to be done. There's a lot of like.
How are you doing with that? How are you OK if you haven't?
You don't know where your child is.
I. Mean this yeah to this woman had

(42:48):
she was in a place of acceptanceI think because she was very
common like I could just kind offeel it in in her tone and there
was there was some work that wasshe was telling me she was
senior therapist. So there was definitely some
work done there. And I think that she probably
had come a long way because I don't imagine that to be easy at
all, right? Someone comes into, you know, to

(43:12):
see you or is dealing with, reaches out to you, is dealing
with a loved one of an addict and doesn't know what to do.
Where do where do they start? Where do where do you start
people on this journey? Like what's step one, really?
What? What is their goal?
What do they want? Are they invested in getting

(43:34):
their loved one into treatment? What are I'll ask them what the
behaviors and symptoms and, and my book outlines that that that
they're dealing with on a daily basis are.
Maybe it's phone calls in the middle of the night, maybe their
loved ones living with them and they're dealing with verbal
abuse or other behavior that they're they're struggling with.

(43:57):
So what to look for? First of all to.
See. Yeah, See where they're at with,
with kind of the day-to-day whatthe parents or loved one is
dealing with. I kind of take stock of that.
And then where, where are the levers of influence?
So if they're struggling and their young person has the keys

(44:18):
to the car and the parents are insuring the car, well, there's
a lever of influence. Are the parents comfortable
being completely liable in a case where a young person might
be substance involved or have mental health issues that would
result in an accident? Am I OK?

(44:39):
Yeah. So.
So where are the levers of influence?
And. And.
Oh, well. And most will say I couldn't
possibly do that. They're using the car to go to
their job. OK.
All right. So, you know, does it concern
you that they're that you're liable for that?
And, and, and where, where are you prepared to make a change

(45:03):
and start with kind of the lowest hanging fruit.
We're not going to kick out right away, but maybe they've
got enough money to be drinking and using.
Maybe they could contribute to the household either through
some monetary or maybe they could contribute to their cell
phone bill. Maybe there's some more skin in
the game they can have to to to show some responsibility.

(45:29):
Does that make sense? Like to kind of have those where
where are the levers of influence?
Because family have much more leverage than they are in touch
with. By the time they come and reach
out for help, they're feeling very powerless.
They're feeling like they have 0control.
And in a sense they do. They don't have control over

(45:50):
their young person, but they do have control over some things.
So it's like lining them up withwhat they have control.
They don't have control over thedisease of addiction or mental
health. They definitely don't have
control over that. What do they have control over?
OK, Are they funding it? Are they, you know, are they
giving money? Are they supporting driver

(46:12):
drivers insurance or? Providing a place to use the
drugs and alcohol. Yeah, yeah.
So where, where are they prepared to maybe and just
pointing those things out will give them a sense even if
they're not ready. And again, I'm not telling them
this is what they need to do. We're establishing where they
feel like they have a little bitof influence.
And the loving relationship is abig one.

(46:34):
It's bigger than parents give acknowledge their children want
a connection with the parents. They don't really want to be
pissing them off and harming them and causing the in fact,
that can fuel a lot of the guilt, shame and remorse in a
loved ones in in the young person's life.

(46:56):
So, yeah, having having that, having a kind of taking stock
and having those tough inventories of where, where am I
supporting recovery and where amI?
And they can always, people can always start doing something for
themselves. Going to a, you know, their low

(47:17):
barrier support group where it doesn't cost a lot of money, but
they can go online even or listen to a podcast.
There's great podcasts out thereand yours is one of those to to
get some support and on their own terms.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's great.
Thank you. I, I, I think I'm going to have

(47:39):
to have you back on because we're going to have to wrap it
up here. But I, I could go on forever
about this. Let's close with this because I
always close my podcast with this.
But if you could say something to the struggling mom, dad,
loved one of an addict right now, what would you say?
I would say there is a solution and you're looking at 2
solutions here. And you know, I've worked with

(48:02):
young people that have been in my life for a long, long, long,
long time. And maybe they've come in and
out of abstinence, but there's so much more to recovery than
abstinence. And I love that I've been able
to introduce them to a solution that they've come back to for

(48:23):
and, and may take with them for the rest of their life in a way
that suits them. So recovery is possible, and
there's always hope. Always.
Yeah. Thanks so much.
Susan. Your books on Amazon?
Where? Where else is it?
Available. It's it's available everywhere
books are sold. And if it's not, ask for it,
please. And you can ask for it at your

(48:44):
library. It's got an e-book available.
Nice. So yeah.
And it's even on sale because it's Amazon Prime Days.
Love it. Oh yeah.
Good call. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. Thanks.
So. Much.
But if you want to buy Canadian,it's at Indigo and Book City if
you ask for it. And yeah.
I love it. I'm, I'm looking forward to

(49:04):
reading this and I think we needto continue this conversation on
not just on this podcast, but like out in the world, right,
because a lot. Of absolutely, yeah.
It's about raising awareness andhaving the tough conversations
and and learning new ways to newtools and ways to cope.
And there is a solution. Thanks very much for having me.

(49:25):
I really enjoyed this I. Appreciate it, thanks for
listening. Please help us grow the channel
and like, share and subscribe for more content.
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
informational and motivational purposes only.
This content is not a substitutefor professional medical advice,
addiction treatment, or therapy.If you or someone you know is

(49:46):
struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
physician, addiction specialist,or mental health professional.
You are no longer alone.
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