Finding Mental Peace, Music, and Meaning with 1/3 Sacral Generator, Dan Bradner

Photographer, musician, and 1/3 sacral generator Dan Bradner joins Rest for the Revolution to explore what true rest really means—beyond sleep. Dan shares his powerful journey through self-harm, burnout, and grief into a life of intentional rest, daily meditation, gratitude practices, and music. We dive into:

• How rest can transform your mental health and creativity

• The link between self-harm, intrusive thoughts, and the search for peace

• Building daily practices for emotional and mental resilience

• Music, photography, and volunteering as paths to healing

• Why short naps, meditation, and gratitude are radical acts of self-care

If you’ve ever struggled with restless thoughts, burnout, or the pressure to keep going in a chaotic world, this episode will leave you with hope, tools, and a reminder that rest is revolutionary.

This episode invites us to rethink rest—not just as downtime, but as an active, essential practice for healing and revolution. Tune in for honest stories, hard-earned wisdom, and practical insights on how rest can transform your life.

To see all of Alex's active projects: www.alexmufson.com   To download your Human Design Chart: https://www.humandesigninpractice.com/human-design-chart   Since this episode Dan has discontinued his Meta accounts in peaceful protest. Please find him directly at https://www.danbradner.com  

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
This is rest for the revolution.
A projector's dilemma.
Hi everybody and welcome to Rest for the Revolution.
.999I'm really excited to talk to photographer slash rock star 1 3 sacral generator Dan Bradner today and learn all about rest from his wisdom.

(00:23):
Thank you for being here, Dan. 6 00:00:25,601.5 --> 00:00:26,341.5 Thank you for having me.
.001I always start with the same question.
.5your lifetime, what has your relationship to rest been like? Well, it's changed a lot over the years for sure. 9 00:00:37,11.5 --> 00:00:39,91.5 For a long periods of time, I didn't get much rest. 10 00:00:40,121.5 --> 00:00:43,141.5005 Didn't sleep well a lot when I was like high school era. 11 00:00:44,91.5005 --> 00:00:48,1.5005 Full throttle in college, you know, not sleeping much doing the whole college experience. 12 00:00:49,861.5005 --> 00:00:55,151.5005 Spending a lot of time playing music, you know, you get home at four in the morning and then you have to get up and go do things. 13 00:00:55,151.5005 --> 00:00:58,161.5005 So it was it was lacking for a long time. 14 00:00:59,741.5005 --> 00:01:12,131.5005 Recently I've been putting, like recently last, like 10 years or so, I've put a lot more emphasis on rest and sleep and brain rest and all kinds of different things that have been super helpful. 15 00:01:13,201.5005 --> 00:01:18,651.5005 So it's a, it's an ongoing journey to find the right balance, but I think I'm doing pretty good right now. 16 00:01:20,225.0005 --> 00:01:41,386.501 Was that lack of rest period because you were just so excited about what you were doing? Or was there an avoidance of something else or a I know all of those things having a job and playing tons of music just there was little time, you know, even now still, I still play music. 17 00:01:41,386.501 --> 00:01:42,256.5005 I still have a job. 18 00:01:42,256.5005 --> 00:01:51,656.5015 So sometimes I will get home at two in the morning and have to be at work at eight and I have a two hour thing that I have to do every single morning. 19 00:01:51,656.5015 --> 00:01:53,916.4015 So if I get home at two and I have to be somewhere at eight, I got to get up at two. 20 00:01:53,916.6015 --> 00:02:04,766.5005 And so I still have those, those days where I'm on like four hours of sleep going all day, but I try to my best to make up for it. 21 00:02:05,675.0015 --> 00:02:14,706.5005 What's the two hour thing? Stretching meditation and giving thanks, which is mental rest, you know, so it's, it's included for sure. 22 00:02:15,316.5025 --> 00:02:22,546.5005 But I have found for myself that eating breakfast, drinking coffee, like this, all of these things that set me up. 23 00:02:23,276.5015 --> 00:02:25,556.5015 Both short term and long term for success. 24 00:02:26,556.5015 --> 00:02:27,896.5015 I, I just have to do those things. 25 00:02:27,946.5015 --> 00:02:33,286.5005 Like I make it a point to especially meditations paramount in my mental health. 26 00:02:34,286.5015 --> 00:02:39,536.5015 Feels very important to the conversation because rest and sleep aren't always the same thing. 27 00:02:39,556.5015 --> 00:02:45,6.5025 Can you, if you don't mind, no, through what that two hours looks like? That's really inspiring. 28 00:02:45,978.0025 --> 00:02:47,468.0015 I'm sure I wake up. 29 00:02:48,218.0025 --> 00:02:52,48.0015 I make coffee, I drink it hang out with my dog while I'm drinking it. 30 00:02:53,48.0015 --> 00:03:02,768.0015 And then I stretch my back went out like a couple of years ago and I think it was just from having bad posture and being lazy and like reading in bed and just all these bad habits. 31 00:03:03,478.0015 --> 00:03:08,568.0005 So it hurt for months and I just started stretching to help that. 32 00:03:09,188.0015 --> 00:03:12,148.0015 And I found that doing that every morning, it takes like 20 minutes. 33 00:03:12,938.0015 --> 00:03:15,238.0015 My flexibility is a lot better and I just feel better. 34 00:03:15,238.0015 --> 00:03:15,768.0015 So I just, Thank you. 35 00:03:16,218.0015 --> 00:03:19,738.0015 added that to my routine, you know, it's like, I'm just going to keep doing this every single morning to you. 36 00:03:20,888.0015 --> 00:03:22,128.0015 And that's like 20 minutes. 37 00:03:22,228.0015 --> 00:03:26,238.0015 Expressing gratitude out loud to the universe for all the things in my life that I'm grateful for. 38 00:03:26,688.0005 --> 00:03:33,588.0005 Including you and that amazing man you live with, you guys come out of my mouth every single morning to the, you know, just expressing gratitude. 39 00:03:33,998.0005 --> 00:03:36,128.0005 It's a growing list and it takes, it takes time. 40 00:03:37,448.0005 --> 00:03:46,647.9995 And then I meditate which takes about 25 minutes and then I eat breakfast and then I I've been working out now too. 41 00:03:46,647.9995 --> 00:03:50,37.9995 So if it's a workout day, then I will go work out for 2 hours. 42 00:03:50,528.0005 --> 00:03:54,748.0005 So if it's a workout day, try to add that time before as well. 43 00:03:55,407.9995 --> 00:03:56,2.9005 And then I've. 44 00:03:56,723.0005 --> 00:03:58,633.0005 Take a shower, get dressed and go about my day. 45 00:03:59,676.5005 --> 00:04:04,966.5005 That's a lot of commitment and intention that you bring to just starting the day. 46 00:04:04,976.4995 --> 00:04:11,233.0005 How, that come into your life? It's piecemeal for sure. 47 00:04:11,353.0005 --> 00:04:12,213.0005 Meditation. 48 00:04:12,583.0005 --> 00:04:16,673.0015 I got a book when I was 20, so that was almost 30 years ago. 49 00:04:17,513.0005 --> 00:04:18,193 Called meditation.

(04:18):
.0005It's practiced by a guy named Swami. 51 00:04:20,808.0005 --> 00:04:23,558.0005 Rama, I think Chris might have a copy of it. 52 00:04:24,678.0005 --> 00:04:34,587.9995 And it's like an intro to meditation and I was very, I was interested, but it took a long time to, to really make that a daily habit. 53 00:04:34,597.9995 --> 00:04:43,428.0005 I think it's probably been a daily habit for like 10 years and for 20 years before that, it was a sort of like the cyclical thing that I would do when I felt like I needed it. 54 00:04:44,28.0005 --> 00:04:44,738.0005 But it turns out that. 55 00:04:45,858.0005 --> 00:04:48,148.0005 You know, that's like working out when you need to be strong. 56 00:04:48,278.0005 --> 00:04:50,528.0005 If you just work out all the time, then you will just be strong. 57 00:04:51,388.0005 --> 00:04:53,998.0005 So eventually I got to a point where I was like, I got to do this every day. 58 00:04:55,8.0005 --> 00:04:56,437.9995 So that was the meditation part. 59 00:04:56,978.0005 --> 00:05:01,928.0015 The gratitude part probably came about the same time as the the daily meditation thing. 60 00:05:01,928.0015 --> 00:05:03,78.0015 I think they just went hand in hand. 61 00:05:03,78.0015 --> 00:05:06,903.0015 One day I just started like, Expressing gratitude for the things in my life. 62 00:05:06,903.0015 --> 00:05:09,93.0015 And then I just kept doing it. 63 00:05:10,433.0015 --> 00:05:12,433.0015 I'm working out. 64 00:05:12,443.0015 --> 00:05:13,243.0015 It's pretty recent. 65 00:05:13,603.0015 --> 00:05:28,133.001 I've done it in the past, but the world is changing and I just felt like and I'm getting older, so gotta just maintain, keep and maintain like a basic, amount of strength. 66 00:05:28,183.001 --> 00:05:29,473.001 It's good for your mental health as well. 67 00:05:29,473.001 --> 00:05:31,23.001 I think, you know, feeling strong is nice. 68 00:05:33,151.5 --> 00:05:41,513.001 I love the evolution of this becoming a daily practice when it used to be sort of almost like the medicine after the Oh and yeah. 69 00:05:41,513.101 --> 00:05:43,322.901 Yeah. 70 00:05:43,771.502 --> 00:05:44,511.502 proactive. 71 00:05:45,303.001 --> 00:05:45,643.001 Yeah. 72 00:05:46,51.502 --> 00:06:00,66.501 What was your, Relationship to this sort of mental rest because sleep sounds like one thing for you, but then it sounds like there's this other really important quality about what happens to you when you're awake. 73 00:06:00,96.501 --> 00:06:03,856.5 And I'm wondering what that has looked like over your lifetime. 74 00:06:05,73.001 --> 00:06:07,133.0005 It's looked like a Pollock painting, dude. 75 00:06:07,133.0005 --> 00:06:08,153.0005 It's just been chaos. 76 00:06:09,573.0005 --> 00:06:13,473.001 But my journey with the mental health world has been again, episodic. 77 00:06:14,143.001 --> 00:06:29,193.001 And again, usually like in, in times of like crisis helpful for sure in those periods looking back, man, I wish I would've just like continued for the same reasons, you know, to, to have a better grip on my own experience of the world. 78 00:06:29,583.001 --> 00:06:43,193.0005 And instead of waiting until things got out of hand so as it's, I've been in therapy now for almost a year with this amazing therapist who's, there was, that was a crisis thing to that involved a bunch of family stuff and the death of my mom and et cetera. 79 00:06:43,193.0005 --> 00:06:44,23.001 That's like a long story.

(06:45):
That coupled with meditation and throughout the last couple of years, I mean, I'm kind of always reading about Zen and Buddhism and these things that resonate with me in terms of, you know, Just being a human being, not necessarily spiritual, but just like, how do I enjoy today or be intentional throughout the day, you know, like Buddhism and Zen have really helped me to do those things.

(07:08):
So I'm constantly reading those things. 82 00:07:10,687.999 --> 00:07:18,988 And in the last year or so, since working with this woman and reading a lot of more Buddhism, my meditation has changed a fair bit.
It's gotten a fair bit deeper deeper, meaning that, you know, I'm I mean, there's all kinds of ways to meditate.
There's, you know, you could listen to meditation.
You can try to just focus on your breath.
You can watch your thoughts and just like be a witness or whatever.

(07:32):
And I've done all those things and they all have their benefits.
.0005But as of the last few months, it's been like, just breathe and not like when I have thoughts, just, you know, Go back to my breath. 89 00:07:42,823.0005 --> 00:07:44,733.0005 I'm not like trying to pay attention to my thoughts or anything. 90 00:07:44,733.0005 --> 00:07:46,163.0005 I'm just trying to pay attention to my breath. 91 00:07:47,93.0005 --> 00:07:51,302.9995 And that clearing of the mind is it's, it's a rest for your mind for sure. 92 00:07:51,813.0005 --> 00:08:13,913.0015 And I think for me doing it pretty much the first thing in the morning it just makes my, my experience throughout the day a little bit, again, more intentional less reactive to the world which is, I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're I used to have just battles in my mind with, with people that weren't there, you know, while I was doing stuff. 93 00:08:13,913.0015 --> 00:08:15,363.0005 And that takes a tremendous amount of energy. 94 00:08:16,193.0005 --> 00:08:28,33.0005 And so if you can minimize that, then you have all this other mental energy, which is as rest, right? Yeah, what you're describing is that sort of intrusive racing thought patterns Right. 95 00:08:28,416.5015 --> 00:08:30,246.5015 I know are familiar for me. 96 00:08:30,266.5015 --> 00:08:31,976.5015 I'm sure they're familiar to a lot of people. 97 00:08:32,226.5015 --> 00:08:33,623.001 Do I think it's the human experience. 98 00:08:33,623.001 --> 00:08:33,793.0005 Yeah. 99 00:08:34,356.5015 --> 00:08:56,968.0005 that's what I was going to ask is, do you remember when they started? Did they come as with childhood or did they Oh, yeah, I'm sure I think it's just being a human being is and having an ego and having a brain and Being inundated with, with television and commercials, especially growing up, these things just fill your mind and my home life was like, Not that great. 100 00:08:56,988.0005 --> 00:09:03,578.0005 So all those other, like trying to deal with emotions and not knowing what emotions are and how to deal with them as a kid, you know, like your brain just goes nuts. 101 00:09:04,347.9995 --> 00:09:06,618.0005 And my brain definitely did that for a long time. 102 00:09:06,618.0005 --> 00:09:21,536.5005 It still does it all the time, but now I'm a little bit more equipped to just just be like, all right, So rest in a healthy mental health way wasn't modeled to you as a young person in your family system. 103 00:09:22,558.0005 --> 00:09:23,768.0005 no, no, nothing. 104 00:09:23,828.0005 --> 00:09:28,367.9995 I mean, my parents taught me how to drive and that's like the extent of the education they gave me. 105 00:09:29,556.5005 --> 00:09:33,76.5005 There was a long time between birth and driving, I would think. 106 00:09:33,458.0005 --> 00:09:41,838.0005 I mean, I've reflected a lot about my family life and they didn't teach me about relationships, about how to deal with emotions, about how to cook, about how to do laundry, like nothing. 107 00:09:41,838.0005 --> 00:09:45,548 They were just like, it's a complicated situation, like all families are.

(09:45):
.0015But I think my mom was just too busy trying to maintain as peaceful environment as she could. 109 00:09:51,228.0015 --> 00:09:56,218.0015 And so that's like all her energy went to was just like not rocking the boat because my dad started super violent. 110 00:09:56,498.0015 --> 00:09:57,768.0015 Angry, explosive person. 111 00:09:57,838.0015 --> 00:10:01,268.0015 So you experienced that enough. 112 00:10:01,268.0015 --> 00:10:04,488.0015 And I imagine her reaction was like, okay, we just have to do this. 113 00:10:04,868.0015 --> 00:10:14,208.0005 And it was the eighties latchkey kids were common, like I was walking to school by myself when I was in like second grade and coming home for hours before any parents were there. 114 00:10:14,208.0015 --> 00:10:19,788.0005 So they didn't really give me a whole lot of, of knowledge about them. 115 00:10:19,848.0005 --> 00:10:20,852.9005 And I don't know that they had any. 116 00:10:22,863.0005 --> 00:10:27,471.5005 So, So safety was the focus. 117 00:10:27,521.5005 --> 00:10:29,691.5005 That was your marker of success. 118 00:10:31,123.0005 --> 00:10:43,122.9995 I suppose, I don't know, and I'm still trying to unravel a lot of all that, that experience, you know, because it's learning that when you're in that experience, it's just normal. 119 00:10:43,622.9995 --> 00:10:50,513.0005 And then when you come out of that experience, still normal until someone who's smart and educated is like, that's not normal. 120 00:10:51,623.0005 --> 00:10:59,453.0005 And then you got to start to be like, wow, what is normal? Or how do I like? How do I become, how do I be more normal? Like the quote unquote normal. 121 00:10:59,493.0005 --> 00:11:01,703.0005 How about, how do I be more healthy as a. 122 00:11:02,488.0005 --> 00:11:28,641.4995 As a human, you know, how do I be more grown up and forgiving and intentional? And that word is going to keep coming up intentional, but yeah, Yeah, it sounds like because you had so much room for your mind to run wild, but not a lot of feelings of security and safety and attachment that your brain defaulted to a lack of rest early that was unrelated to sleep. 123 00:11:29,588.0005 --> 00:11:30,128.0005 for sure. 124 00:11:30,988.0005 --> 00:11:41,808.001 There's parts of my brain that are very focus oriented, when I was a kid math has been one of my favorite subjects, so I could just do math, and like that would be something to occupy my mind playing music. 125 00:11:41,808.001 --> 00:11:42,418 Same thing. 126 00:11:42,418.001 --> 00:11:46,938.0005 I could just play music and just sort of that's that's meditation and Zen right there. 127 00:11:46,938.0005 --> 00:11:48,868.001 If you're just doing what you're doing. 128 00:11:49,558.001 --> 00:11:54,703.0005 So I had these few outlets where I could really Concentrate on something. 129 00:11:55,253.0005 --> 00:11:59,163.0005 And I imagine that's also helpful. 130 00:12:00,913.0005 --> 00:12:16,343.0005 I think if you speak for myself, if my mind is just not engaged in things, then it's hard for me to sleep at night because then all of this stuff starts going, it's like my brain wasn't exercised all day and now it just, it's like a dog. 131 00:12:16,353.0005 --> 00:12:18,83.0005 It's like a border Collie just needs to run. 132 00:12:18,913.0005 --> 00:12:36,722.9995 So if I can do those things and running like a border Collie is spending four hours playing guitar or reading You know, something that's hard for me to digest, then those things also make me tired because at the end of the day, my brain was much good to use and sort of fall asleep itself. 133 00:12:37,566.5005 --> 00:12:45,703.0005 When did you figure that out? Since we started this conversation, I think, I don't know. 134 00:12:45,752.9995 --> 00:12:45,993.0005 I don't know. 135 00:12:46,2.9995 --> 00:12:48,2.9995 I've ever figured it out like consciously. 136 00:12:48,162.9995 --> 00:12:59,72.9995 I've just probably recognized that over the, over time, the more I play guitar, The better I sleep, the more I read, the better I sleep, the more I exercise, the better I sleep. 137 00:13:00,252.9995 --> 00:13:09,849.4995 Did that the, your life as an adolescent? Were you seeking that sort of thing, or is that an adult realization and skill set? I was seeking escape as a kid. 138 00:13:10,239.4985 --> 00:13:22,69.4995 And so music is a amazing escape, you know? most of the realizations I've had are all pretty recent because everything up until about a year ago was again, I thought, I thought it was all just normal. 139 00:13:22,119.4995 --> 00:13:35,502.9985 And Typical, maybe the, the variables are different from family to family, but it was all the same as everybody else's, but it wasn't so like more intrusive, both your thoughts and in reality. 140 00:13:35,503.0985 --> 00:13:35,677.9985 Yeah. 141 00:13:35,677.9985 --> 00:13:35,852.8985 Yeah. 142 00:13:36,394.4985 --> 00:13:37,324.4995 reality for sure. 143 00:13:37,324.4995 --> 00:13:44,304.5 And my thoughts, I mean, I was, if we're going to get like super deep, I was a cutter and a burner for 17 years or something like that. 144 00:13:44,304.5 --> 00:13:49,634.4995 And that was one thing I was doing to try to escape all that and like, try to deal with this emotional pain that was happening as a kid. 145 00:13:50,284.4995 --> 00:13:52,294.4995 And I, nobody in my family ever mentioned it. 146 00:13:52,524.4995 --> 00:13:54,274.4995 Like it was obvious, but nobody ever mentioned it. 147 00:13:54,274.4995 --> 00:13:56,864.4995 So again, I thought that was normal and that's not normal. 148 00:13:58,357.9995 --> 00:14:00,400.9995 It's That's not, not yeah. 149 00:14:00,454.4995 --> 00:14:01,594.4995 typical, but it's common. 150 00:14:01,854.4995 --> 00:14:02,910.9995 When did Yeah, for sure. 151 00:14:03,4.4995 --> 00:14:05,840.9995 self harming? Nine, I think. 152 00:14:06,914.4995 --> 00:14:13,854.4985 So Yeah, I must have been pretty intolerable for a long time before nine to get to that point at nine. 153 00:14:14,560.9995 --> 00:14:15,120.9995 I don't know. 154 00:14:15,670.9995 --> 00:14:18,710.9995 I just, I just remember doing it. 155 00:14:20,104.4985 --> 00:14:36,124.4985 I've spoken to a lot of people in my life that have self harmed like that and often the feeling during the self harm experience and then after is restful and I'm curious if that's how it felt for you. 156 00:14:36,855.9975 --> 00:14:37,525.9975 Absolutely. 157 00:14:37,555.9985 --> 00:14:41,585.9995 Like sometimes, not all the time, but Sometimes that's how I would go to sleep. 158 00:14:42,395.9995 --> 00:14:46,385.9995 Like I would do that and then I could go to sleep and it was almost like instant. 159 00:14:46,385.9995 --> 00:14:55,305.9985 It was like this, just this totally unhealthy and then I can go right to bed. 160 00:14:56,444.4985 --> 00:14:59,184.4995 Yeah, it gives your mind something very clear to focus on. 161 00:15:00,125.9985 --> 00:15:00,355.9985 Yeah. 162 00:15:00,355.9995 --> 00:15:05,285.9985 And as soon as it was over, like my mind would just go blank and then I, I could just fall asleep. 163 00:15:05,405.9985 --> 00:15:06,525.9985 It was like a release. 164 00:15:08,430.9995 --> 00:15:17,464.4995 Of whatever, In many ways if it's a non suicidal intent self harm it's safer than drugs to make that same effect. 165 00:15:18,120.9995 --> 00:15:18,960.9995 yeah, for sure. 166 00:15:19,260.9995 --> 00:15:21,510.9995 And I did a lot of drugs too, and a lot of drinking. 167 00:15:21,510.9995 --> 00:15:25,580.9995 So like, that was like the precursor, you know what I mean? Neither were healthy. 168 00:15:25,940.9985 --> 00:15:40,680.9995 I feel more sad for the, that person for self harming that I do for that person, for, Turning to drugs and alcohol, you know, like that, that hurts my heart more for people who do that. 169 00:15:40,710.9995 --> 00:15:43,440.9995 Cause it's such a, there's so much shame involved. 170 00:15:43,490.9995 --> 00:15:45,650.9985 Like the next day I would always have like this ton of shame. 171 00:15:45,650.9995 --> 00:15:50,60.9995 Cause there would be like marks all over me and trying to hide it from people. 172 00:15:50,60.9995 --> 00:15:53,300.9995 And just, it was a terrible experience. 173 00:15:53,730.9985 --> 00:16:02,972.4975 Is that why you feel more sad for that version because it is more shameful or is there another variable? I just remember how I felt about it. 174 00:16:03,92.4975 --> 00:16:05,2.4975 And like, that's what makes me sad. 175 00:16:06,312.4975 --> 00:16:12,502.4975 Like little kid is doing something that they, you know, they don't really understand. 176 00:16:13,152.4975 --> 00:16:15,722.4975 And the way that it made them feel, that just like breaks my heart. 177 00:16:16,372.4975 --> 00:16:21,782.4975 So when I hear about that from other people, it's I just, you know, just, I just feel, feel for them. 178 00:16:22,12.4975 --> 00:16:24,622.4975 And most of the time, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not a counselor or anything. 179 00:16:24,842.4965 --> 00:16:27,162.4975 So I don't like talk to kids who are experiencing this. 180 00:16:27,162.4975 --> 00:16:30,272.4975 It's mostly people who are older, who don't do it anymore, who bring it up. 181 00:16:30,752.4975 --> 00:16:35,202.4975 And then we have this, like, we can have this moment where we, I totally understand. 182 00:16:35,342.4975 --> 00:16:39,662.4975 You know what I mean? And there's a, the compassion is just like right there and empathy is right there. 183 00:16:39,682.4965 --> 00:16:40,712.4965 It doesn't have to work for it. 184 00:16:41,57.4975 --> 00:16:55,387.4975 Not that I necessarily feel like I'm have to work for empathy, but sometimes you do, you know, sometimes you got to actively try to be empathetic towards somebody, but in those situations, it's just super accessible. 185 00:16:56,880.9975 --> 00:17:03,547.4975 Well, I appreciate you sharing because I have sat with a lot of people while they were still bleeding as young Yeah. 186 00:17:03,940.9975 --> 00:17:21,890.9965 And I think many of those people were they to listen because some of them will listen to this would be really grateful that an adult could represent their experience so far down the road of life with such grace and empathy. 187 00:17:21,890.9975 --> 00:17:29,610.9975 I think that's, really missing because For whatever reason drugs and alcohol are spoken about. 188 00:17:29,660.9975 --> 00:17:40,20.9965 And so I, I do wonder if that's why this is the place where you feel more sadness and shame, regardless of which one was more dangerous or not. 189 00:17:40,657.4975 --> 00:17:40,967.4975 Yeah. 190 00:17:41,597.4975 --> 00:17:44,617.4975 Well, drugs and alcohol were also fun for a short period of time. 191 00:17:45,767.4975 --> 00:17:46,77.4975 Event. 192 00:17:46,77.4975 --> 00:17:55,457.4965 I mean, eventually you're using it as a way to just escape, you know? So it's more of a, I don't know, they just, they just feel differently to me. 193 00:17:55,457.4975 --> 00:18:00,277.4975 Neither one were healthy in the, in the way that I was doing a lot of it. 194 00:18:00,327.5975 --> 00:18:01,607.5975 Sounds very adaptive. 195 00:18:01,647.5975 --> 00:18:07,124.0975 You were looking for rest of a lot of sorts, mind, sleep, from for sure. 196 00:18:07,124.1975 --> 00:18:07,563.9975 Yeah. 197 00:18:08,317.5975 --> 00:18:08,794.0975 To Yeah. 198 00:18:08,987.5975 --> 00:18:11,107.5975 I hear someone who was. 199 00:18:12,7.5975 --> 00:18:17,777.5975 creative in trying to get their needs met a world that wasn't providing for their needs. 200 00:18:19,47.5975 --> 00:18:25,397.5975 It also seems like you came across music and art in a similar fashion. 201 00:18:27,87.5965 --> 00:18:34,237.5975 And if we were to not judge any of them, they all feel like they were pretty motivated, adaptive strategies. 202 00:18:34,237.6975 --> 00:18:36,589.0975 Well, Yeah, for sure. 203 00:18:36,829.0975 --> 00:18:53,649.0975 That's, that's one thing I'm, I'm being taught that that's, that that's real, you know, that this is, that was a strategy to get through which feels weird that it's a positive in some weird sense. 204 00:18:53,659.0975 --> 00:19:00,569.0965 You know what I mean? That at least like I was trying to do something to, to change my situation. 205 00:19:00,569.0965 --> 00:19:02,179.0975 So that's, that's weirdly positive. 206 00:19:02,864.0975 --> 00:19:03,874.0975 It got you to sleep. 207 00:19:03,914.0975 --> 00:19:05,884.0975 You'd be dead if it hadn't gotten you to sleep. 208 00:19:06,440.5975 --> 00:19:07,470.5975 yeah, it got me to sleep for sure. 209 00:19:07,470.5975 --> 00:19:11,550.5975 And the music thing has been like the most wonderful thing in my life. 210 00:19:11,550.5975 --> 00:19:13,550.5965 So thank God for that. 211 00:19:13,650.5975 --> 00:19:16,537.0975 When did that show up? 12 when I was 12. 212 00:19:17,890.5975 --> 00:19:19,330.5975 So it's all overlapping for you. 213 00:19:19,340.5975 --> 00:19:20,100.5975 Very young. 214 00:19:20,837.0965 --> 00:19:21,157.0965 Yeah. 215 00:19:24,160.5975 --> 00:19:41,737.0975 What was it about music that you into that world Tell I've always loved music and. 216 00:19:42,837.0975 --> 00:19:44,537.0975 It's, it's still magical to me. 217 00:19:44,547.0975 --> 00:20:00,877.0965 I think that it's this, it's the only art, well, maybe not the only, but it's, it's the most direct art, I think that's like, here's an emotion, you know, like you can throw on a song and it's like, immediately here you go. 218 00:20:01,647.0965 --> 00:20:03,297.0965 And the, this just. 219 00:20:04,832.0965 --> 00:20:17,32.0955 Concoction of harmony and melody and lyrics and you know, you get a great band with a couple of different people expressing themselves given that emotional content. 220 00:20:18,92.0965 --> 00:20:21,132.0965 And it's just the most beautiful, powerful thing in the world. 221 00:20:21,432.0965 --> 00:20:25,602.0955 I don't think anything changed social consciousness 20th century. 222 00:20:26,422.0955 --> 00:20:33,18.5965 Personally me more think about the sixties, you know Vietnam was happening. 223 00:20:33,18.5965 --> 00:20:37,548.5965 The civil rights were happening and music was a giant part of that. 224 00:20:37,598.5965 --> 00:20:44,328.5955 And it was like helping shift the, the opinions of, of what was right. 225 00:20:44,328.5965 --> 00:20:51,28.5965 And what was wrong and what was possible, you know, Bob Dylan I shall be released singing on the national mall in front of all those people. 226 00:20:51,488.5965 --> 00:20:55,848.5965 All of the anti war songs that were coming out the, the Beatles putting out Sgt. 227 00:20:55,848.5965 --> 00:21:05,438.596 Peppers and showing the world that you can just like do whatever you want and be weird and be flam, like tons of color in this sort of black and white world. 228 00:21:05,438.596 --> 00:21:08,658.5955 It's kind of a trip that like color television was going about at the same time. 229 00:21:08,764.4146818 --> 00:21:24,137.0965 want then you have the Beatles showing up with that album, all, you know, Silence. 230 00:21:24,273.5955 --> 00:21:27,883.5965 in photography and the war photography of the, of the Vietnam era. 231 00:21:28,383.5975 --> 00:21:30,693.597 And it just like shifted how people think or look at the world. 232 00:21:30,693.597 --> 00:21:33,553.5975 It might've been temporary because the sixties ended. 233 00:21:33,553.5975 --> 00:21:46,183.5965 And then we ended up with punk rock because it Didn't work, you know, and the people just got upset rightfully so and angry and aggressive and punk and heavy metal and more rock and roll and whatever. 234 00:21:47,163.5965 --> 00:22:03,950.0965 But I think music still has a very music's in a weird place right now, but it's just such an emotional, beautiful thing Why is music in a weird place right now? capitalism. 235 00:22:06,913.5965 --> 00:22:07,993.5965 I mean, they have just. 236 00:22:08,958.5965 --> 00:22:12,608.5965 Frank Zappa had a great talk about this when he was still alive. 237 00:22:12,688.5965 --> 00:22:13,698.5965 It was later in his life. 238 00:22:13,698.5965 --> 00:22:28,238.5965 So I can't remember when he died early 2000s, maybe, but he was like back in the day, back in the fifties and sixties, and maybe even the seventies, the corporate heads of the record companies, they were just suits and they didn't know anything about music. 239 00:22:28,688.5965 --> 00:22:31,578.5965 And they would hear something and be like, Is this good? I don't know. 240 00:22:31,578.5965 --> 00:22:33,18.5965 Is this good? Is it selling? Yeah. 241 00:22:33,18.5965 --> 00:22:33,658.5965 Keep making it. 242 00:22:33,668.5965 --> 00:22:40,808.5965 And they just like had artists had this kind of moment of freedom to make whatever they wanted because the record companies just had hands off things about it. 243 00:22:41,773.5965 --> 00:22:51,113.5965 And then we have, Reagan came along and he got rid of the fairness doctrine and he got rid of the amount of media that corporations could own. 244 00:22:51,333.5965 --> 00:22:57,93.5955 So like in the eighties, when I was growing up, radio stations were just all owned by small groups of people all over the country. 245 00:22:57,93.5965 --> 00:22:58,973.5965 There was thousands of independent radio stations. 246 00:22:59,223.5965 --> 00:23:03,943.5965 There's 50 independent radio stations left in the United States and the rest are either. 247 00:23:04,288.5965 --> 00:23:07,58.5965 Clear channel or United and they own all of them. 248 00:23:07,788.5965 --> 00:23:09,428.5965 And so they get the same playlist. 249 00:23:09,458.5965 --> 00:23:22,588.5965 I know somebody who's a DJ here in town on one of those stations and they get that the music they're playing that day and they play it and there's nothing that they get to choose KGLT in Bozeman. 250 00:23:22,692.0965 --> 00:23:26,38.5965 why do you need a DJ then? That's a great question. 251 00:23:26,168.5965 --> 00:23:28,278.5955 The, to, to have a human. 252 00:23:28,358.5965 --> 00:23:36,518.5965 I mean, we don't anymore really, because we have Spotify shuffle, which is a whole nother beast, you know, like Spotify is making billions of dollars and artists make nothing. 253 00:23:37,348.5965 --> 00:23:48,398.5975 And a very, very, very few people rise to the top and make hundreds of millions of dollars and the rest are just like no exposure. 254 00:23:48,408.5975 --> 00:23:50,118.5975 The only way they can make money is to tour. 255 00:23:50,148.5975 --> 00:23:50,998.5975 Touring is not cheap. 256 00:23:51,8.5975 --> 00:23:52,398.5975 Making records isn't cheap. 257 00:23:53,348.5975 --> 00:23:59,513.5975 So if you're not the very, very, very top, it's really hard to get any sort of exposure. 258 00:23:59,773.5975 --> 00:24:04,713.5965 And when you are at the very, very top, I mean, who's the biggest artist in the world in the United States right now? It's Taylor Swift. 259 00:24:04,932.0965 --> 00:24:05,312.0965 Swift. 260 00:24:05,963.5965 --> 00:24:06,193.5965 Yeah. 261 00:24:06,233.5975 --> 00:24:17,613.5975 And her music is great for, young people who are going through breakups and stuff, but is Leonard Cohen ever going to, let's be real about capitalism. 262 00:24:17,673.5975 --> 00:24:20,63.5975 Let me throw an opinion out there about capitalism. 263 00:24:20,963.5975 --> 00:24:34,653.5985 They don't want music talking about social unrest and they don't want music that's going to make people think deeply about society, about culture, about power, about all those things, you know, and so they just keep it out. 264 00:24:35,403.5985 --> 00:24:37,763.5985 I got a conspiracy theory that I came up with myself. 265 00:24:38,223.5985 --> 00:24:43,493.5985 Bruce Springsteen didn't have a number one hit until like, The rising after nine 11. 266 00:24:44,43.5985 --> 00:24:45,753.5985 And that was when the whole country was United. 267 00:24:45,753.5985 --> 00:24:49,813.5985 And he put out this album about like, unity and strength and courage and all that stuff. 268 00:24:50,227.0985 --> 00:24:56,887.0985 He never had a number one hit like born in the USA was a huge album, huge song dancing in the dark was on that album. 269 00:24:57,157.0985 --> 00:24:58,277.0975 Glory days. 270 00:24:58,567.0985 --> 00:24:59,837.0975 He had thunder road. 271 00:24:59,847.0985 --> 00:25:01,987.0985 He had all these amazing hits. 272 00:25:02,397.0985 --> 00:25:03,387.0985 They never made number one. 273 00:25:03,397.0985 --> 00:25:05,497.0985 He had an Academy award before he had a number one. 274 00:25:06,210.5985 --> 00:25:19,940.5975 My conspiracy is that they were just like keeping him down because they didn't want to have too many people actually listen to his music because it was very much about the struggle of America for most working people and it wasn't like born in the USA. 275 00:25:19,940.5985 --> 00:25:23,570.5975 It's not this anthem that Ronald Reagan thought it was, or that Donald Trump still thinks it is. 276 00:25:23,570.5975 --> 00:25:27,450.5975 You know, it's a story about a dude who gets in trouble and gets sent to go kill people. 277 00:25:27,490.5975 --> 00:25:31,50.5975 And Warren comes back and has his back turned on him by the whole, by the country. 278 00:25:31,580.5985 --> 00:25:45,593.1865 It's fascinating to me that you are so connected with music that in a lot of ways is, experiencing what you're actively trying to undo in your life right now, this constriction or invisibility. 279 00:25:46,92.0985 --> 00:25:49,862.0985 For sure, So, yeah, who knows where it'll go music wise. 280 00:25:50,542.0985 --> 00:25:51,752.0995 None of it seems tenable. 281 00:25:51,802.0995 --> 00:26:00,162.0995 Like this, this sucking of all of the wealth And choice and possibility out of the world and putting it in the hands of a very small number of people just doesn't seem tenable. 282 00:26:02,445.5995 --> 00:26:08,672.0995 Is that part of why you're doing so much work right now? You talked about being strong for this moment, but it sounds like Yeah. 283 00:26:09,155.5995 --> 00:26:13,575.5995 You're becoming strong in a lot of other ways, including the ability to rest. 284 00:26:14,622.0995 --> 00:26:18,392.0995 I I'm doing all of this work for myself. 285 00:26:18,902.0995 --> 00:26:20,932.0995 I want to enjoy my life. 286 00:26:20,972.1005 --> 00:26:22,172.1005 I want to be at peace. 287 00:26:22,232.1005 --> 00:26:29,922.1005 When my mom passed a couple of years ago, there was a whole bunch of that family dynamic that I had to like actually deal with for the first time. 288 00:26:30,932.1005 --> 00:26:37,262.1005 I started going to this therapist because I was just consumed by rage and it wasn't outward, you know, like I'm not an outwardly. 289 00:26:38,87.1005 --> 00:26:41,487.1005 Usually I'm not like an outwardly rage filled person. 290 00:26:41,887.1005 --> 00:26:42,927.1005 It was just internal. 291 00:26:43,127.1005 --> 00:26:46,457.1005 And I wanted to get rid of that. 292 00:26:46,457.1005 --> 00:26:48,707.0995 Cause that's no way to live, and that's not restful. 293 00:26:50,282.1005 --> 00:26:51,632.1005 At all. 294 00:26:51,682.1005 --> 00:26:54,682.1005 My own personal work is mostly so that I can be a better human being. 295 00:26:55,112.1005 --> 00:26:58,532.1005 I'm not going to change the world, but I can change my community a little bit. 296 00:26:58,562.0995 --> 00:27:00,262.1005 I can help my community a little bit. 297 00:27:00,882.0995 --> 00:27:11,632.1005 And I want to do those things to the best of my ability and to bring joy to people through music and to bring people together through music and to take photographs of people that. 298 00:27:12,452.1005 --> 00:27:13,292.1005 We'll be meaningful. 299 00:27:13,292.1005 --> 00:27:15,202.1005 If not now, then we're all going to die. 300 00:27:15,232.1005 --> 00:27:22,672.1005 And I've already got a photographs of a lot of dead friends and those photographs are wildly valuable to their families and to people around them. 301 00:27:22,682.1005 --> 00:27:31,157.1005 So what can I do to make the world a better place? Is that why you added photography to your professional roster? No, I just love photography. 302 00:27:32,157.1005 --> 00:27:33,407.1005 So I'll tell you that quick story. 303 00:27:33,597.1005 --> 00:27:35,357.1005 I love photography and I have forever. 304 00:27:35,727.1005 --> 00:27:43,197.1005 The first time I ever got arrested, I was probably 11 years old, 10 or 11 years old, and I was stealing I was going, I went into a. 305 00:27:43,357.1005 --> 00:27:50,207.1005 Oscar drug and went to the hit Parader, which was like an old music magazine full of like rock stars and interviews and stuff. 306 00:27:50,207.1005 --> 00:27:51,777.1005 And circus magazine was another one. 307 00:27:52,187.1005 --> 00:27:55,217.0995 And I was just ripping out photos of rock stars that I was going to pin up on my wall. 308 00:27:55,227.1005 --> 00:27:55,817.1005 I got caught. 309 00:27:57,597.1005 --> 00:28:00,297.1 Ross Halfin is a famous photographer from that era. 310 00:28:00,297.1 --> 00:28:02,777.0995 And I remember just loving looking at his photographs. 311 00:28:04,422.1005 --> 00:28:08,132.1005 I took photography in high school, like dark room stuff. 312 00:28:08,202.1005 --> 00:28:09,422.1005 I've just always really enjoyed it. 313 00:28:09,522.1005 --> 00:28:13,662.1005 Music sort of took over the vast majority of my time in my life for a long time. 314 00:28:13,662.1005 --> 00:28:17,162.1005 So I didn't really get a chance to dig into photography. 315 00:28:17,502.1005 --> 00:28:25,802.1005 And then when my musical career sort of was maintaining itself and I had a bunch of free time, I was like, I'm going to get into this and try to learn it. 316 00:28:26,362.1005 --> 00:28:27,812.1005 So then I was just learning it. 317 00:28:27,812.1005 --> 00:28:32,452.1005 And my favorite photographers are music photographers or documentary photographers. 318 00:28:33,542.1005 --> 00:28:41,412.1005 And I was, consuming a bunch of that, looking at what, like trying to figure out how they were doing, what they were doing and what was working and why it was cool or whatever. 319 00:28:42,232.1005 --> 00:28:45,242.1 And then somewhat recently, it was about a year ago. 320 00:28:45,242.1 --> 00:28:46,297.0005 This guy calls me. 321 00:28:46,687.1005 --> 00:28:50,687.1005 And he's a musician in town and I'd shot a couple of his bandmates for promo stuff. 322 00:28:51,537.1005 --> 00:28:55,147.1005 And I think I met him once before, but we weren't like friends or anything. 323 00:28:56,7.1005 --> 00:28:59,867.1015 He called me and he's like, Hey man, can I hire you to photograph me? And I was like, totally, man. 324 00:29:01,37.1015 --> 00:29:09,517.1015 And so we met up and he tells me this crazy story about his life and about how he was a year prior to me and him meeting. 325 00:29:10,147.1015 --> 00:29:16,787.1015 He was drinking all the time and doing a bunch of drugs and he had a fiancee and she just ghosted him and. 326 00:29:18,132.1015 --> 00:29:20,142.1015 It was like the rock bottom for him. 327 00:29:20,262.1015 --> 00:29:21,542.1015 And so at the end of the experience. 328 00:29:21,542.1015 --> 00:29:24,392.1015 He was like, I'm going to stop doing drugs. 329 00:29:24,472.1015 --> 00:29:25,512.1005 I'm going to stop drinking. 330 00:29:25,512.1005 --> 00:29:26,412.1015 I'm going to eat right. 331 00:29:26,682.1015 --> 00:29:27,962.1015 My exercise. 332 00:29:28,342.1005 --> 00:29:29,732.1015 And I'm just going to change my life. 333 00:29:30,52.1015 --> 00:29:32,542.1015 And he did, he stopped everything cold Turkey and just like. 334 00:29:32,942.1015 --> 00:29:34,2.1015 Changed his entire life. 335 00:29:34,872.1015 --> 00:29:38,832.1015 And then he wanted photographs to remember this moment. 336 00:29:39,612.1015 --> 00:29:41,502.1015 And he's very self conscious about his face. 337 00:29:42,452.1015 --> 00:29:45,862.1015 And he told me, he's like, dude, you are the only one who can do this. 338 00:29:46,502.1015 --> 00:29:49,32.1015 And I was like, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's a lot of pressure. 339 00:29:49,332.1015 --> 00:29:51,782.1015 And for the first time in my life, I'm a portrait photographer. 340 00:29:51,782.1015 --> 00:29:52,942.1015 I've been shooting people for a long time. 341 00:29:52,982.1015 --> 00:30:03,472.1005 And for the first time, it really hit me like how much responsibility and how much power I have to give somebody something that they love about themselves. 342 00:30:03,932.1015 --> 00:30:15,502.1015 It was really crazy to me that I had gone this long and not realize that because I was mostly just trying to figure out like what aperture, what shutter speed, what I put the light, all these other things are going on my head and not about like I have a human being in front of me. 343 00:30:16,582.1015 --> 00:30:18,902.1015 Most of us hate cameras and hate being in front of a camera. 344 00:30:19,792.1015 --> 00:30:22,757.0015 And from that moment on, like it changed. 345 00:30:24,37.1015 --> 00:30:29,577.1015 How I approach shooting people, there was this whole new facet to it. 346 00:30:29,667.1015 --> 00:30:37,107.1005 There was a really important facet and it was like perfect timing because I had sort of got a handle on a lot of that other stuff, the technical things. 347 00:30:37,597.1005 --> 00:30:41,767.1015 And now I could just really focus on this person in front of me. 348 00:30:41,767.1015 --> 00:30:48,407.1015 And how are we, how am I going to make this person look like I see this person? And it was pretty, pretty wild. 349 00:30:50,75.6015 --> 00:30:50,975.6015 It's beautiful. 350 00:30:51,582.1015 --> 00:30:54,82.1015 Yeah, and he got the photos and he's like, dude, these are great. 351 00:30:54,82.1015 --> 00:30:54,882.1015 I love him so much. 352 00:30:55,92.1015 --> 00:31:14,552.1005 And I was like, Oh my God, definitely a clear rock bottom moment like that in your life or was it more gradual gradual. 353 00:31:14,772.1005 --> 00:31:22,142.1005 I think About seven years ago, I was in this really, this relationship that neither one of us should have been in. 354 00:31:23,162.1005 --> 00:31:24,22.1005 And that ended. 355 00:31:24,832.1005 --> 00:31:32,242.1005 And when that ended, it was like, I really don't want to do this anymore. 356 00:31:32,392.0995 --> 00:31:35,612.0995 I don't want to devote time to things that aren't right. 357 00:31:36,182.0985 --> 00:32:03,107.1005 I don't want to like not listen to my, I knew that relationship was wrong, but sometimes we just like, you know, latching onto things because they're there and going to Burning Man a bunch of times had also an effect on that, where it's like, there are other ways of being, I've been in the same way of being for a long time and just seeing that there's other ways of being was, Super helpful. 358 00:32:03,707.1005 --> 00:32:11,597.1005 So it was, it wasn't like an event or a time period or time period might be loose, but it wasn't an event. 359 00:32:11,627.1005 --> 00:32:14,547.0995 I didn't, I wasn't like, didn't get arrested and go to jail or anything. 360 00:32:14,905.7005 --> 00:32:30,655.5005 Okay. 361 00:32:30,752.1005 --> 00:32:36,42.1005 to have more than like one drink every two months and no more than that. 362 00:32:36,112.1005 --> 00:32:42,912.0995 Cause I don't want to that makes it hard to sleep and that makes it hard to get up and do things, even just like one beer. 363 00:32:42,912.0995 --> 00:33:12,867.2025 And I'm like, this is so dumb, but occasionally, occasionally it's right for me, like in the desert, my friends hanging out occasionally, Maybe one day out of the three weeks I'm at Burning Man, I'll have like a couple drinks and still use some drugs that psychedelics are still a part of my life, like once every year, or maybe once every two years not as a party thing, but as a personal growth thing or spiritual thing and everything else just sort of. 364 00:33:14,392.2015 --> 00:33:22,532.2015 It's just like dissipated the, the want, the desires, the need I just found myself enjoying time more. 365 00:33:22,532.2015 --> 00:33:25,282.2015 I get up at like five 30 in the morning now. 366 00:33:25,522.2015 --> 00:33:30,362.2 And for years, I got up at like 10, 10 30, cause I would go play music all night and then sleep in. 367 00:33:31,152.2 --> 00:33:39,382.201 But now I get up at like five 30, five 25 seen so many sunrises in the last three years, you know, world's all quiet. 368 00:33:39,382.201 --> 00:33:40,322.201 It's a whole different. 369 00:33:40,902.201 --> 00:33:42,42.201 Experience of life. 370 00:33:42,72.201 --> 00:33:43,112.201 It's pretty cool. 371 00:33:44,545.701 --> 00:33:54,752.201 What were the other ways of being that you noticed when you first started going to Burning Man that were so impactful to you? There's the giving, that place is all about giving. 372 00:33:54,752.201 --> 00:34:03,2.201 So there was this idea of building something and just giving it away to people with, with like no expectation of anything in return. 373 00:34:03,912.202 --> 00:34:08,982.202 So it's like a whole volunteer, civic duty, community vibe. 374 00:34:10,52.202 --> 00:34:14,135.701 There was, you weren't flying in on a private jet and having something set up for you. 375 00:34:14,315.702 --> 00:34:20,162.2025 I think it's important to contextualize your experience of this particular yeah, I I'm out there for three weeks every year. 376 00:34:20,172.2025 --> 00:34:22,647.1025 I live in a tent and I, I build a tent. 377 00:34:22,927.2025 --> 00:34:25,397.2025 Big structure that has a big stage to two stages. 378 00:34:25,397.2025 --> 00:34:29,987.2025 And we build a big sound system and we're like building stuff for that city. 379 00:34:29,987.2025 --> 00:34:36,647.2015 And then we run these stages and Burning Man is not a, it's not like Coachella where there's a giant stage and everybody's there. 380 00:34:36,647.2015 --> 00:34:38,937.2015 It's like, there's stages and stuff all over the place. 381 00:34:38,937.2015 --> 00:34:46,437.2035 And we're just one little tiny stage amongst a ton and, It's people who are doing, it's kind of like an open mic sometimes. 382 00:34:46,447.2035 --> 00:34:48,347.2035 Sometimes there's bands, but it's real chill. 383 00:34:48,377.2035 --> 00:34:57,767.2035 And most of the people aren't famous that come to our stage, but we build it in the middle of the desert with no electricity and no water and no sewage and no nothing. 384 00:34:57,787.2025 --> 00:34:58,927.2035 And we just do it. 385 00:34:59,77.2025 --> 00:34:59,727.2035 And it's amazing. 386 00:35:01,307.2035 --> 00:35:01,987.2035 So we work a lot. 387 00:35:02,57.2035 --> 00:35:03,27.2035 I work a lot out there. 388 00:35:05,882.2035 --> 00:35:11,422.2035 People being themselves and it's full expression for a lot of people, not everybody. 389 00:35:11,422.2035 --> 00:35:22,862.2035 I, I just look the same as I do all the time out there, but a lot of people really go to great lengths to express themselves visually through dance, through music, through whatever. 390 00:35:23,607.2035 --> 00:35:36,857.2035 And so seeing all of these people try really hard to be who they are was incredibly powerful to me. 391 00:35:37,797.2035 --> 00:35:46,550.7368333 And so then Okay. 392 00:35:46,597.2035 --> 00:35:52,877.2035 art burn and thinking to myself, man, these, these artists just spent like two years building that and then they burned it. 393 00:35:53,617.2035 --> 00:35:58,457.2035 Like, what, what can I let go of? That's way less valuable. 394 00:35:58,657.2035 --> 00:35:59,937.2035 You know what I mean? Yeah. 395 00:35:59,937.3035 --> 00:35:59,957.1035 Yeah. 396 00:36:01,617.2035 --> 00:36:09,987.2035 Over, over time that was, that helped me to realize that like, going to go ahead I really do have a choice in how I want to live my life. 397 00:36:10,123.6717927 --> 00:36:13,837.2035 first I can be really is about how I want to live my life. 398 00:36:13,837.2035 --> 00:36:21,867.203 And I can have a conversation with myself, like, what does that look like to me? And it doesn't mean that I'm going to have that answer in five minutes, but I can think about it over time. 399 00:36:22,147.203 --> 00:36:23,677.203 And over time it got pretty simple. 400 00:36:23,687.203 --> 00:36:32,167.203 Like a little lot of things faded away, you know, make music, make photography, help people experience things. 401 00:36:34,482.203 --> 00:36:37,502.203 That's it, that's all that's left for me. 402 00:36:37,922.203 --> 00:36:41,142.203 And those things are great, you know? Art is my favorite thing in the world. 403 00:36:41,552.203 --> 00:36:46,402.203 So, now I have more time to read and to listen to music and to make music and to play music. 404 00:36:46,912.203 --> 00:36:51,532.203 And to look at photographs and make photographs and help people. 405 00:36:51,992.202 --> 00:36:53,942.201 I've started volunteering because of Burning Man. 406 00:36:53,942.201 --> 00:37:00,212.201 I came back I volunteered to the help center in Bozeman answering Crisis calls in the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. 407 00:37:01,232.201 --> 00:37:05,452.201 And that was a direct result of coming back from Burning Man and seeing an ad that says volunteers needed. 408 00:37:05,452.201 --> 00:37:08,142.2 And the whole idea of volunteerism was in my mind. 409 00:37:08,192.201 --> 00:37:15,342.199 And suicide is something that I've, been affected by my personally and through people who've killed themselves that I know. 410 00:37:18,120.7333333 --> 00:37:26,880.6666667 Silence. 411 00:37:27,82.2 --> 00:37:28,492.2 interviewed me and they said I could do it. 412 00:37:28,492.2 --> 00:37:29,372.199 And I've been doing it for. 413 00:37:29,982.2 --> 00:37:30,582.2 Few years. 414 00:37:31,112.2 --> 00:37:47,892.2 And that has turned into like, I used to be really hush about it because a I'm private and B I didn't want people to like not call because they knew that I worked there because maybe they'd be like freaked out about me answering the phone. 415 00:37:48,812.2 --> 00:37:53,262.1995 But over time I've been more open about it, telling people about it when it, when the time is right. 416 00:37:53,262.1995 --> 00:38:09,782.2 I tell people about it, if it seems appropriate and the more people that know the more people outside of the help center are like, Hey, can I talk to you about something? And so now I'm like, Just talking to some person about, it could be anything, it doesn't have to be suicide, but sometimes it is suicide. 417 00:38:10,992.2 --> 00:38:14,412.199 And so this idea of, I want to help people. 418 00:38:14,722.2 --> 00:38:17,522.2 I want to help make the world a better place. 419 00:38:17,522.2 --> 00:38:24,622.199 I want to be somehow help people who self harm or are having deep emotional struggles or mental health problems. 420 00:38:24,672.2 --> 00:38:27,532.201 I know that world, I want to help somehow. 421 00:38:28,52.201 --> 00:38:30,842.201 That allowed me to Have that space. 422 00:38:30,862.201 --> 00:38:32,552.201 And it's like one of the coolest things in the world. 423 00:38:35,510.701 --> 00:38:36,470.701 You're qualified to do it. 424 00:38:36,500.701 --> 00:39:03,932.201 Does that make sense to you now? it and there was like six of us in training. 425 00:39:04,642.201 --> 00:39:05,892.201 Maybe seven of us in training. 426 00:39:05,922.201 --> 00:39:09,662.201 So you have to have some reason to want to do it. 427 00:39:11,542.201 --> 00:39:13,382.201 And maybe that's just a smaller number of people. 428 00:39:13,492.201 --> 00:39:17,732.201 You also have the courage to call and say, I would like to do this. 429 00:39:17,802.201 --> 00:39:21,32.2 You know, I imagine a bunch of people saw them were like, Oh, I want to do that, but I can't do that. 430 00:39:21,752.201 --> 00:39:23,242.201 I'm just dumb enough to do it. 431 00:39:23,302.201 --> 00:39:27,422.2 So I called them and they were like, you know what I mean? And I've gotten better at it over time. 432 00:39:27,492.2 --> 00:39:29,792.2 So just like anything, you just learn it. 433 00:39:30,652.2 --> 00:39:39,902.201 And so I don't know, like the answer to that question, do I see that I'm grateful. 434 00:39:39,962.201 --> 00:39:40,882.201 That's all I'm grateful. 435 00:39:40,882.201 --> 00:39:43,102.201 They let me, I'm grateful that they haven't kicked me out yet. 436 00:39:43,572.201 --> 00:39:48,322.201 I'm grateful that I seem to be able to do it. 437 00:39:48,322.201 --> 00:39:51,532.201 Like they've offered me a job because they think I'm good enough at it. 438 00:39:52,512.201 --> 00:40:03,122.201 Every single time that phone rings and I have a conversation with somebody, I'm like super grateful that somebody was there. 439 00:40:03,142.202 --> 00:40:05,62.202 And it's just like weird that that somebody was me. 440 00:40:05,727.202 --> 00:40:09,57.202 You know, that's been hard to wrap my head around. 441 00:40:09,57.202 --> 00:40:13,167.202 Sometimes like I can look at all the people around me that are there and be like, I'm so grateful. 442 00:40:13,167.202 --> 00:40:13,907.202 You people exist. 443 00:40:13,907.202 --> 00:40:14,937.202 You people are so awesome. 444 00:40:15,857.202 --> 00:40:24,47.202 And like, it's hard for me to be like, you're one of those people, but I am, I'm one of those people and I'm super grateful, super grateful. 445 00:40:24,305.7353333 --> 00:40:27,350.6686667 Okay. 446 00:40:27,687.202 --> 00:40:31,577.202 the suicide hotline and it takes so much courage. 447 00:40:32,407.202 --> 00:40:35,307.202 I'm just, I'm always deeply inspired that these people are telling me their story. 448 00:40:35,327.202 --> 00:40:48,367.201 And sometimes I'm the only person in the whole world who knows their story for the first time ever, you know, and that's like a huge honor, like honors, like such a tiny word that I'm the one that gets to hear these people's stories. 449 00:40:48,657.201 --> 00:40:57,527.202 And then I'm the one that gets to open up this door of support for them because after the phone calls done, we'll call them every day. 450 00:40:57,812.202 --> 00:40:58,422.202 And check up on them. 451 00:40:58,422.202 --> 00:41:04,32.202 And so like now it's like, here's, here's a whole bunch of support. 452 00:41:04,52.202 --> 00:41:06,902.202 And it's just like the, I'm so grateful that I get to do that. 453 00:41:07,725.702 --> 00:41:18,855.701 There's a lot of community in this whole story Burning Man to the hotline to then now your community that you're superimposing on these strangers who call, you're like, Hey, great. 454 00:41:18,875.701 --> 00:41:20,115.702 Now you're part of our community. 455 00:41:20,135.702 --> 00:41:20,715.702 Awesome. 456 00:41:20,822.201 --> 00:41:21,112.201 Yeah. 457 00:41:21,312.202 --> 00:41:21,632.202 Yeah. 458 00:41:22,332.202 --> 00:41:24,512.202 Community is one of the 10 principles of Burning Man. 459 00:41:24,772.201 --> 00:41:26,762.202 So that's a lot of it. 460 00:41:26,792.202 --> 00:41:39,942.202 I know it's, I always sound like I'm in a cult when I talk about that place, but there are some very real things about that city that the world at large could learn from, I think. 461 00:41:40,102.202 --> 00:41:41,262.202 And I've certainly learned from. 462 00:41:41,342.202 --> 00:41:42,332.202 Brought back to the world. 463 00:41:42,332.202 --> 00:41:57,422.202 And I think that's one of the best things about Burning Man is not just the amazing thing that it is, but how it comes back into the world all over the planet and like little by little filters out. 464 00:41:59,752.202 --> 00:42:05,962.201 I'm just one dude who answers a phone call, but I've talked to a lot of people and had like an impact on a lot of strangers lives who I will never meet. 465 00:42:06,602.201 --> 00:42:07,822.202 I'll never talk to again. 466 00:42:08,322.202 --> 00:42:14,730.702 But because of Bernie man that I'm doing that, And now you're sharing that. 467 00:42:15,635.702 --> 00:42:16,325.702 can do that. 468 00:42:16,325.702 --> 00:42:18,135.702 And so someone else might do it. 469 00:42:18,792.202 --> 00:42:19,572.202 do it volunteer. 470 00:42:20,655.702 --> 00:42:27,502.202 Was there a moment when you decided to live? Was that a thing for you? Yeah, absolutely. 471 00:42:27,532.202 --> 00:42:28,822.202 I was suicidal myself. 472 00:42:29,522.201 --> 00:42:32,392.201 And that question live or die was a huge question. 473 00:42:33,192.201 --> 00:42:44,307.202 And then once I really dug into that question, live or die, Took on a whole new meeting because like I could choose live and still be dead. 474 00:42:44,947.202 --> 00:42:51,187.202 Live meant I had to actively choose the life I was going to have. 475 00:42:51,757.202 --> 00:42:57,157.202 I wasn't quite at the point where I was going to choose the person I was going to be, but I was going to choose the life I was going to live. 476 00:42:57,157.202 --> 00:42:58,27.202 And that was music. 477 00:42:58,197.201 --> 00:43:05,497.202 I had graduated from MSU with a degree in finance and that made no sense for me, but that's just what happened. 478 00:43:06,437.202 --> 00:43:07,807.202 And then I was just like struggling with. 479 00:43:09,327.202 --> 00:43:14,97.202 What do I do now? And the pressures of my family were like, you do not play music. 480 00:43:14,447.202 --> 00:43:15,967.202 That's the dumbest thing you could do. 481 00:43:16,867.202 --> 00:43:19,127.202 And to me, it was like, that's the only thing to do. 482 00:43:19,640.802 --> 00:43:49,100.602 Okay. 483 00:43:49,532.202 --> 00:44:00,612.201 but she, she and that counselor really just like took me and helped me get through that really, really, really dark place. 484 00:44:01,32.201 --> 00:44:07,832.202 And I sold my car and I bought two guitars and I walked everywhere for three years and I just sat at home and play guitar. 485 00:44:08,182.202 --> 00:44:13,82.202 I've been playing guitar for a long time, but I was like, I'm going to really get serious about it. 486 00:44:14,372.202 --> 00:44:15,760.701 And I were in your 20s. 487 00:44:16,532.202 --> 00:44:17,362.202 was 26. 488 00:44:19,990.702 --> 00:44:31,40.702 It's important to locate that time because 26 isn't a kid I think a lot of people once they hit adulthood are like, well, this is, this is life. 489 00:44:31,692.202 --> 00:44:32,22.202 Yeah. 490 00:44:32,92.202 --> 00:44:34,592.202 And I couldn't, it was going to kill me. 491 00:44:34,682.202 --> 00:44:41,972.202 Like it was, I couldn't, I couldn't do what the world expected of me, the small world that was my family expected of me. 492 00:44:43,142.202 --> 00:44:50,882.202 And for like, probably for the first time in my life, I like, Stood up for myself and was like, this is my life. 493 00:44:50,882.202 --> 00:44:52,632.202 I don't want to do it this way or no way. 494 00:44:53,532.202 --> 00:44:55,332.202 And it worked out well enough anyway. 495 00:44:55,342.202 --> 00:44:56,442.202 I mean, I've played lots of music. 496 00:44:56,442.202 --> 00:44:57,652.2015 I still have both of those guitars. 497 00:44:57,652.2015 --> 00:44:58,342.201 They're both amazing. 498 00:44:58,342.202 --> 00:44:58,912.202 One of them is. 499 00:44:59,442.202 --> 00:45:04,762.202 Make me so much money playing gigs over the years, you know, supported me with it for decades. 500 00:45:04,872.202 --> 00:45:09,42.202 It's a beautiful seven and a half pound piece of wood that I just love with all my heart. 501 00:45:09,92.302 --> 00:45:21,702.304 And it worked out, I guess it wasn't easy and it wasn't like it wasn't like sunshine and rainbows everywhere and still isn't, but I'm super grateful that I made that choice. 502 00:45:22,277.304 --> 00:45:29,397.304 You know, because the, the opposite would have been to to not be myself, to change into somebody else. 503 00:45:29,427.304 --> 00:45:34,107.304 I was just having a conversation with my good friend, Don Hickey, who you may be familiar with. 504 00:45:35,307.304 --> 00:45:37,327.304 And we were talking about a lot of this stuff. 505 00:45:37,767.304 --> 00:45:37,797.304 Yeah. 506 00:45:38,107.405 --> 00:46:06,378.805 And and I was wearing Metallica shirts and I was playing music and like, I had it figured out for me as a person when I was like 15 years old. 507 00:46:06,478.804 --> 00:46:07,668.705 And then I turned my back on it. 508 00:46:08,788.805 --> 00:46:12,258.805 To try to have a relationship with this guy who was out of reach. 509 00:46:13,728.805 --> 00:46:17,678.805 We were talking, Don and I were talking about how fortunate I was to come back. 510 00:46:18,108.805 --> 00:46:20,908.805 And now I'm wearing Metallica shirts and I'm playing music. 511 00:46:22,408.805 --> 00:46:23,688.805 You have been for a while. 512 00:46:24,160.305 --> 00:46:25,50.304 I haven't been for a while. 513 00:46:25,650.305 --> 00:46:25,960.305 Yeah. 514 00:46:26,760.305 --> 00:46:27,110.305 Yeah. 515 00:46:27,270.305 --> 00:46:37,70.305 And like so many amazing experiences have come from that, you know, so many, and so many wonderful people and relationships and friends, and I don't like dwell on. 516 00:46:37,735.305 --> 00:46:40,605.305 There's this great Buddhist saying, if something bad happens to you, don't hold on to it. 517 00:46:40,865.305 --> 00:46:43,35.305 If something good happens to you, don't hold on to it. 518 00:46:43,845.305 --> 00:46:53,975.305 So I've got a bunch of great memories of all these crazy gigs that I've played, but I don't like, they're not like definitive of who I am in any way. 519 00:46:53,975.305 --> 00:46:55,925.305 They're just like moments that happened that were awesome. 520 00:46:56,535.305 --> 00:47:06,965.304 And then I get to move on and go on to the next thing, whatever that is, whatever the next cool gig is, or whatever the next awesome photo project is or whatever, Buddhism in general, I think has taught me that, like. 521 00:47:08,300.305 --> 00:47:16,560.305 It's just like, what's right now and how do you, how do you deal with right now? And how do you make right now as best as possible? And how do you work towards things for sure. 522 00:47:16,980.305 --> 00:47:25,950.304 But it's not like those things are going to define me as a person, how I show up in those things is going to define me as a person, whether they're good or bad or awesome or not awesome. 523 00:47:27,310.304 --> 00:47:32,580.304 It's just life, just like go enjoy my life as much as possible doing the things that I want to do. 524 00:47:35,98.804 --> 00:47:42,18.804 It's quite inspiring because rest has so much weight here. 525 00:47:42,18.804 --> 00:47:45,88.804 That's about your experience of life. 526 00:47:45,378.804 --> 00:47:58,890.304 It's not actually the absence of it's maybe entirely living So now currently, and for the past year or two, I take a 23 minute nap every single day. 527 00:47:59,618.803 --> 00:48:00,588.803 23 minutes. 528 00:48:01,310.304 --> 00:48:04,610.304 I did a bunch of playing with my timer. 529 00:48:04,940.304 --> 00:48:11,660.304 And for me, 23 minutes is just that sweet spot where my brain just starts to go into that weird dream mode. 530 00:48:12,120.304 --> 00:48:15,570.3035 And then I wake up and I'm not drowsy and I'm rested. 531 00:48:15,570.3035 --> 00:48:16,810.303 Sometimes I don't fall asleep at all. 532 00:48:16,810.304 --> 00:48:19,660.305 Sometimes I just lay there resting. 533 00:48:20,420.304 --> 00:48:39,220.303 Closing my eyes and I don't fall asleep, but the timer goes off and I wake up and then I have more time in the day to be a little bit more productive and rested for sure, but every single day How did that come about? necessity, I was just like working a lot and not doing it. 534 00:48:40,470.304 --> 00:48:42,900.304 Time is short and there's a lot of books in the world. 535 00:48:42,900.304 --> 00:48:44,540.304 I want to read and there's a lot of music in the world. 536 00:48:44,540.304 --> 00:48:47,740.304 I want to listen to, and I have three jobs. 537 00:48:47,800.304 --> 00:48:53,770.3035 So like managing time is a real thing that I found it was a real thing. 538 00:48:53,770.3035 --> 00:48:56,460.303 And if I wasn't taking a nap, I'd get home, I'd eat dinner. 539 00:48:57,550.303 --> 00:49:02,170.304 And by like seven, I would just be trained and I would try to read and I would read the same page four times. 540 00:49:02,250.304 --> 00:49:04,755.304 And I'm just like, Oh, I'm not getting anywhere in reading. 541 00:49:04,785.304 --> 00:49:06,565.304 That's really important to me. 542 00:49:07,855.304 --> 00:49:18,305.303 So I just started taking naps and now I can, like, I get that extra two hours, maybe two and a half hours at night where my brain is. 543 00:49:18,825.304 --> 00:49:27,535.304 Able to read or able to like really listen to music or to work on my website or to do whatever, I just have that energy and it's short 23 minutes, man. 544 00:49:27,535.304 --> 00:49:28,595.304 I could waste that on the internet. 545 00:49:28,625.304 --> 00:49:29,305.304 No time flat. 546 00:49:29,925.304 --> 00:49:32,565.304 And I just, I just lay down. 547 00:49:32,855.304 --> 00:49:34,265.304 Sometimes I sleep and sometimes I don't. 548 00:49:34,265.304 --> 00:49:38,785.303 And sometimes I have crazy profound insights. 549 00:49:40,555.303 --> 00:49:48,493.804 The other day I had one that's getting a little personal, but I have, I have a, you know, is it Carl Young, the psychiatrist? Yes. 550 00:49:49,75.304 --> 00:49:53,835.304 He famously said, no change comes until the unconscious becomes conscious. 551 00:49:54,948.804 --> 00:49:55,298.803 That's young. 552 00:49:55,445.304 --> 00:49:58,775.304 That's a beautiful saying that I just think I've realized just what that meant. 553 00:49:59,615.304 --> 00:50:04,45.304 You have to realize things about yourself before you can do anything to change them. 554 00:50:04,195.304 --> 00:50:08,85.304 And you can't realize anything about yourself if you don't look. 555 00:50:08,995.303 --> 00:50:12,465.304 So sort of like this mild crush on this girl. 556 00:50:13,785.304 --> 00:50:17,995.304 And it's like, I don't know this girl, it's just from a distance, but I was like, I felt that crush growing. 557 00:50:19,140.304 --> 00:50:30,190.303 I was taking a nap the other day and I was just in that weird half sleep, half not sleep where your brain, your eye is sort of watching your brain just do its thing. 558 00:50:31,120.303 --> 00:50:32,930.303 And I'm just like, you know, half out of it. 559 00:50:33,430.304 --> 00:50:37,750.304 And all of a sudden my brain was like, you don't have the emotional capital for a crush. 560 00:50:38,110.303 --> 00:50:44,580.304 I sat up and I was like, I don't, I absolutely don't have the emotional capital for a crush. 561 00:50:45,210.304 --> 00:50:47,200.304 And that was just another benefit of taking a nap. 562 00:50:48,283.804 --> 00:50:50,780.304 Whoa! It was a trip. 563 00:50:51,293.804 --> 00:50:56,243.803 that was is really and also straight to the point. 564 00:50:56,885.304 --> 00:50:57,595.304 It was a trip. 565 00:50:57,605.304 --> 00:51:02,265.304 And what I don't, I don't, I'm not sure if dream state, right. 566 00:51:02,265.304 --> 00:51:05,565.304 Everything's kind of fluid and hard to grasp. 567 00:51:07,45.304 --> 00:51:09,655.304 I don't even necessarily know that it was a voice. 568 00:51:10,555.304 --> 00:51:14,765.303 It might've just been that whole idea hit me really loudly. 569 00:51:15,245.304 --> 00:51:20,75.305 And I totally sat up out of bed and I was like, that is true. 570 00:51:20,75.405 --> 00:51:23,215.303 That is true. 571 00:51:24,945.304 --> 00:51:28,805.304 So lots of, lots of benefits to taking naps, short naps. 572 00:51:28,855.304 --> 00:51:44,298.704 Dolly, do you know, do you know the story of Dolly Salvador Dolly and his naps? Okay. 573 00:51:44,485.304 --> 00:51:51,685.303 his arm down and below the BB was a like a steel platter and he would just like doze off. 574 00:51:51,795.303 --> 00:51:59,790.303 And as soon as he hit that sleep stage, he would drop the, Bebe, it would hit the pen, it would wake him up, and then he would paint whatever was in his dream. 575 00:52:00,0.303 --> 00:52:06,940.303 And that, that's where we got some of that crazy surrealist art from Salvador Dali. 576 00:52:08,48.803 --> 00:52:11,68.803 Wow, that's incredibly useful. 577 00:52:11,78.803 --> 00:52:12,670.303 Thank you for All of that. 578 00:52:12,850.303 --> 00:52:20,300.302 Actually, project is a selfish endeavor because rest is, is one of the harder points in my life. 579 00:52:20,320.303 --> 00:52:28,870.302 And you have offered a tremendous amount of wisdom in just this time we've been sitting, you actually touched on this already at the And. 580 00:52:30,420.302 --> 00:52:40,881.802 How are you having impact or changing the world? I'll say this, you never know the kind of impact you're gonna have on people. 581 00:52:41,881.802 --> 00:52:48,381.802 I think a lot of people don't tell you I work at a coffee shop two days a week, I'm a barista, and two days a week I'm at the roaster. 582 00:52:49,246.8020001 --> 00:52:53,476.8020001 And when I'm a barista, I'm working with a bunch of young kids, you know, cause that's just the world. 583 00:52:54,866.8020001 --> 00:52:55,546.8020001 There's a girl. 584 00:52:55,576.8020001 --> 00:53:01,186.8020001 She's probably 23, 24, maybe worked with her a bunch for like two years. 585 00:53:01,216.8020001 --> 00:53:06,456.8010001 And we just like working together, you know, just hanging out and talking life, making drinks, whatever. 586 00:53:07,146.8020001 --> 00:53:17,326.8020001 And she moved and she had a little going away party and I stopped by, you know, as much as I was like, I'll stop. 587 00:53:17,326.8020001 --> 00:53:18,576.8020001 I'm not going to hang out for this party. 588 00:53:18,586.8020001 --> 00:53:20,286.8020001 I'm way too old to party with a bunch of kids. 589 00:53:21,126.8020001 --> 00:53:22,416.8020001 Swing by and say goodbye, dude. 590 00:53:22,416.8020001 --> 00:53:22,716.8020001 She's. 591 00:53:24,806.8020001 --> 00:53:34,236.8020001 And we're hanging out, just talking and she pulls me aside and she's like, I just want to tell you that you've had a massive impact on my life. 592 00:53:34,716.8020001 --> 00:53:38,11.8020001 And I was like, what are you talking about? And she's like, just, That's all. 593 00:53:38,11.8020001 --> 00:53:38,441.8020001 I don't know. 594 00:53:39,121.8020001 --> 00:53:43,651.8020001 Just that it was super moving for her to tell me that. 595 00:53:43,791.8020001 --> 00:53:51,841.8020001 And I think hold that for just a second. 596 00:53:52,291.8020001 --> 00:53:58,321.8020001 The help center is definitely the most immediate, noticeable way that I affect my community. 597 00:53:58,471.8010001 --> 00:54:07,331.8010001 I can play music for lots and lots of people and it's fun and it's a great time and that's important, but like the, the one on one things that the help center are incredibly. 598 00:54:07,836.8010001 --> 00:54:11,586.8010001 Pivotal moments in an individual's life that I am a part of. 599 00:54:13,326.8010001 --> 00:54:22,726.8010001 And they taught me in the training, how to listen, you know, which is a skill that is, is learnable, not necessarily taught. 600 00:54:22,756.8010001 --> 00:54:26,806.8000001 I learned so much about how to listen and I've been an adult for a while. 601 00:54:27,126.8010001 --> 00:54:33,786.8010001 You know, and they, they talk about how to talk about suicide and they talk about how to talk about sensitive things and et cetera. 602 00:54:35,706.8010001 --> 00:54:41,436.8010001 And I think that experience has, has fostered empathy within me. 603 00:54:42,486.8000001 --> 00:54:43,116.8000001 Empathy. 604 00:54:43,396.8010001 --> 00:54:45,516.8010001 Someone said empathy is the precursor to compassion. 605 00:54:46,836.8000001 --> 00:55:00,276.8000001 And it's, it's helped me to just like listen to people and just try to interject with my thoughts or my opinions or any of that stuff. 606 00:55:00,296.8010001 --> 00:55:01,726.8010001 It's just like listening to somebody. 607 00:55:02,726.8010001 --> 00:55:05,656.8010001 And when you're listening to somebody and you're empathetic, like you're leading. 608 00:55:07,441.8010001 --> 00:55:18,201.8010001 And I think that for me, that's the most impactful way that I've existed in the world is that I'm able to just like, listen. 609 00:55:18,746.8010001 --> 00:55:20,916.8010001 I'm a, I'm a, I'm a musician and artist. 610 00:55:20,916.8010001 --> 00:55:22,886.8010001 And so like the heart is very big to me. 611 00:55:23,206.8010001 --> 00:55:24,996.8010001 I cry at commercials sometimes. 612 00:55:25,726.8010001 --> 00:55:30,757.851 And just honoring that and being that and like, not being afraid of that and, Okay. 613 00:55:30,807.851 --> 00:55:34,521.351 Sort of looking for Can. 614 00:55:34,521.351 --> 00:55:38,556.3176667 You can. 615 00:55:38,556.3176667 --> 00:55:40,573.801 Three. 616 00:55:40,573.801 --> 00:55:46,626.251 for your time. 617 00:55:48,127.851 --> 00:55:57,577.851 somehow oddly from my perspective, it's good for people to be around. 618 00:55:58,517.851 --> 00:56:02,367.851 I think it's, it's helps them for whatever open up about themselves. 619 00:56:02,597.851 --> 00:56:04,37.85 And we all got stuff we got to get out. 620 00:56:04,67.85 --> 00:56:06,57.851 And some of us don't have any avenue for that. 621 00:56:06,57.951 --> 00:56:08,417.851 And you might just be some dude working at a coffee shop. 622 00:56:09,472.851 --> 00:56:13,242.851 Giving someone an opportunity to talk about their life and it's impactful. 623 00:56:13,952.851 --> 00:56:21,762.85 I had this one other thing I used to do when I got back from Burning Man is I would go to the bars like later, like 11 and look for somebody that was just sitting by themselves. 624 00:56:23,12.851 --> 00:56:40,202.851 Cause if you're at the bar by yourself, then you usually got something on your mind and I would just like, sit down and say, how's it going, anything you want to talk about, and like, I heard some of the craziest stories, Wow, so just showing up for the world, maybe I'll do it. 625 00:56:40,202.851 --> 00:56:40,502.851 I don't know. 626 00:56:40,957.851 --> 00:56:41,767.851 I have no idea. 627 00:56:43,116.351 --> 00:56:53,596.351 I think you do know and I think you have shown many people starting with me today recording this a lot of options and a lot of hope. 628 00:56:53,656.351 --> 00:56:55,736.35 The way you show up is really impactful to me. 629 00:56:55,746.351 --> 00:56:58,766.351 And I know that this will be very impactful for a lot of people to hear. 630 00:56:58,766.351 --> 00:57:00,126.351 So very much. 631 00:57:00,807.851 --> 00:57:01,167.851 You're welcome. 632 00:57:01,167.851 --> 00:57:01,777.751 Thank you for having me. 633 00:57:01,777.851 --> 00:57:02,187.851 I was amazing. 634 00:57:02,187.851 --> 00:57:02,817.851 It was super fun. 635 00:57:04,176.351 --> 00:57:08,106.351 People can find you on your website and your Instagram that I'll throw in the show notes. 636 00:57:08,126.351 --> 00:57:09,197.851 Anything Yeah, sure. 637 00:57:10,207.851 --> 00:57:10,867.851 Kindness. 638 00:57:12,816.351 --> 00:57:14,616.351 He's plugging kindness. 639 00:57:14,676.351 --> 00:57:17,886.351 Well, I'll throw that reminder in the show notes as well. 640 00:57:19,76.351 --> 00:57:19,766.351 Thank you, Dan. 641 00:57:20,497.851 --> 00:57:21,27.851 Thanks Alex. 642 00:57:21,37.851 --> 00:57:22,467.85 So super nice to see you. 643 00:57:36,572.851 --> 00:57:37,382.851 Thanks for listening. 644 00:57:37,562.851 --> 00:57:43,952.851 If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to like and subscribe, and if you know someone who might find value in what you've heard, please share.