September 25, 2025 • 32 mins
Jim Hamilton, former Scotland lock and British & Irish Lion, joins Arthur Dickins on Rugby Legends to share his journey from football pitches in Coventry to the world’s biggest rugby stages.
Jim talks openly about his late start in rugby, the struggles of learning skills at speed, and the setbacks that shaped his career. From Leicester to Saracens, and 63 Scotland caps, he reveals the brutal truths of injuries, leadership, and what it takes to survive at the top.
This episode also dives into Jim’s mantras, his biggest inspirations, and his transition into podcasting. Alongside career highlights, he shares emotional moments like running out with his son for his 50th cap — and the friendships he misses most about professional rugby.
Packed with wisdom for young players, hilarious stories, and raw reflections, this conversation shows why Jim Hamilton is more than just a “man mountain” — he’s a voice for resilience, honesty, and passion in rugby.
#RugbyLegendsPodcast #YouthRugby #Rugby #JimHamilton #RugbyUnion #RugbyLife #Leadership #Teamwork #RugbySkills #Inspiration
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:05):
Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends
podcast.
In each episode, I interview anamazing rugby player or coach to
get their insight and advice foryoung rugby players just like
me, who are keen to learn andget better.
In this episode, I'm very happyto be speaking with the Man
Mountain that is the ex-Scotlandsecond row, Jim Hamilton.
(00:27):
Jim was a powerhouse lock whoplayed most of his rugby career
at Leicester Tigers, Gloucester,and Saracens.
At Saracens, he won bothPremiership and European
champion's cup twice.
Jim was capped 63 times byScotland over a 10 year period
and retired from all forms ofrugby in 2017.
(00:48):
Many of you know Jim from TheBig Jim Show podcast, and as a
co-presenter of the world'snumber one rugby podcast, the
Rugby Pod.
I hope you find Jim's knowledgeand wisdom as helpful as I did,
enjoy.
Arthur (01:07):
Jim, how did you get into rugby and how old were you
when you started?
Jim (01:12):
Arthur, I was older than you when I started, so you are
12 years old.
At the age of 15 I was six footseven, six foot eight.
So I actually enjoyed playingfootball,'cause I grew up on the
mean streets of a place calledCoventry and there wasn't a huge
amount of Rugby where I was.
but because I was so big,football wasn't for me.
(01:34):
And there was a local rugby clubcalled Barkers Butts that has
produced some of the, greatrugby players of years gone by.
And your, I don't expect you tonecessarily know them, but I'm
sure that your, mum and dadmight.
Leon Lloyd, Neil Back, DannyGrewcock.
There was a guy called Tom Woodas well, who was my neighbour.
So there was a really good rugbyclub up the road, and because I
(01:56):
was so big, I got picked up toplay there at about the age of
15 or 16.
And then off the back of that, Igot picked up by Leicester
Tigers, who back in the day werelooking for very big human
beings.
And I wasn't amazing at rugby,but I was a very big human
being.
So in answer to your question, Ididn't start playing until I was
about 15, 16 years old.
Arthur (02:16):
what position did you play in football?
Jim (02:19):
Oh, that's a good question.
I was a centre midfield.
I wanted to be an attacker.
I was good at the corners andheaded them in.
But I was a central midfielder.
scored a goal.
Once from the halfway line, Iwent to clear the ball.
It went top right hand corner.
So that's my only, positive whenit comes to football.
Arthur (02:39):
Do you support Coventry in football Then?
Jim (02:41):
Do I now they're good I do, Yeah! I'm a bit of a glory
supporter.
So Man United, I supported themwhen I was a little bit younger
as well, when they were reallygood.
and they had Ryan Giggs andBeckham and Paul Scholes and all
of these legends playing.
but yeah, I'd say I, loosleysupport Coventry.
I support Rangers as well inScotland.
My dad was a Rangers fan, butprobably Man United, but not at
(03:05):
the minute, because they're notvery good.
Arthur (03:06):
What skill did you have to work the hardest on?
Jim (03:09):
Oh, there was a few skills, Arthur, I dunno if you saw me
play back in the day, but therewas a few skills that I needed
to work hard on.
one of the most difficultthings, and I say this to my
children as well and to youngkids who want to play.
You have to be an incredibleathlete to play rugby,
especially now, and I was big,but I wasn't an incredible
(03:29):
athlete.
I didn't do a huge amount oflike athletic movement, and I
didn't obviously do gymnasticsor karate or judo or sprint
training when I was younger.
And that's what you need to be.
You need to be a great athlete,you need to be able to move
well.
So I constantly had to work onmy speed.
I wasn't the quickest.
I was probably one of theslowest.
If not the slowest players whohave ever played for Scotland.
(03:53):
yeah.
So I'd have to work constantlyon running and trying to run
fast and because I was 19, 20stone, getting'em off, getting
up off the floor in thesethings.
So yeah, I would say that the,speed side of the game was
something that I constantly hadto be thinking about.
Arthur (04:10):
That's very interesting.
Thank you.
Which player inspired yougrowing up and what was
inspiring about them?
Jim (04:17):
Yeah, so there was a couple of players.
So the shirt that you arewearing, Leicester Tigers back
in the day were one of the bestteams in the world, if not the
best club team in the world.
Martin Johnson was the captain.
He was the captain of England.
He was the captain of the Lions,and he was my position.
So he was a player that I lookedup to.
that I tried to mould my gameon.
(04:38):
So I'd say that definitelyMartin Johnson.
And then the other one would'vebeen the great, the late Doddie
Weir as well.
So I loved Doddie as a player,way before everything came out
about his illness.
Young Arthur, he was a brilliantman, and I didn't model just my
game on him.
I modeled my after career, myafter game, what life was like
(05:01):
after rugby beyond Doddie,because he had this great.
Ability to make people laugh, tomake people feel comfortable.
and the fact that he was in myposition playing for Scotland
wore the same number as me, wasa British Irish lion as well.
But the way that he conductedhimself, so I would say the two
would be Martin Johnson and thegreat, the late Doddie Wear.
Arthur (05:22):
When did you know you were going to make it as a
professional?
Jim (05:26):
I questioned that every time, every week, every day.
because, I wasn't destined to bea professional rugby player.
It wasn't something that Iaspired to be.
It wasn't something that Ithought was even possible, mate.
But I think.
I knew, when you get your firstcontract, and I think when you
(05:46):
play your first professionalgame, and you know that you can
mix it with the best andphysically you can stand up to
it.
And I suppose, your first bigtackle, the first big run that
you have with the ball, is whenyou stop, not doubting yourself,
but you think, right?
Yeah.
I can mix it with the big boysnow.
So I imagine when I was around21.
(06:08):
When I broke into the LeicesterTigers first team properly,
where I was like, this is thereal deal now.
I don't need to join the Armyanymore.
I can play rugby.
Arthur (06:17):
And who's your best mate at Leicester Tigers Team.
When you joined?
Jim (06:20):
Oh, my best mate.
I had a few best, we had areally good group of lads, very,
lucky.
So you had the older playerslike Martin Johnsons and your
Ben Kays.
They would've been in the sameera as Dave Flatman, who I know
you've had on your show, but.
My would've been a guy calledBrett Deacon.
He's the forwards coach atLeicester now.
He was the best man at mywedding.
my mate, Slugger Ravo, he'dplayed at Leicester, but More
(06:44):
played for Nottingham, which wasthe sister team to the Tigers.
Harry Ellis played Scrum-Half aswell, for Leicester.
So there was a great group,Ollie Smith, who played in the
centre.
Yeah, so I could name 20 guys inthat team who were my best
mates.
But for Scotland, my best matewas Kelly Brown.
So Kelly Brown, if you dunno whohe is, as soon as you look him
(07:06):
up, you'll see massive set ofeyebrows.
it doesn't, look like he's real.
and his name's Kelly and somepeople said it was a girl's
name, but I quite enjoyed him.
So he was, he's my best matestill.
Arthur (07:17):
And as you're talking about teams, what would you say
makes a great team?
Jim (07:21):
rugby's different to a lot of other teams, right?
Because it's, you have to bephysical, but you need to be
skillful.
You need guys that can kick.
what makes a great team?
I know the answer to this.
I don't want to go too deep onyou, Arthur, but I was at,
Saracens and we won stuff whenwe were there.
I was at Leicester when we wonstuff with without.
(07:41):
I played for Scotland for 10years and we didn't win a huge
amount.
What makes a great team ishonesty, but able to have honest
conversations with yourteammates.
Being able to have honestconversations with your coaches
and for them to be able to havehonest conversations with you
and to be able to say, youweren't good enough this week,
or you've been able to go to thecoach and say, coach, I don't
(08:03):
believe in the game plan thatwe're playing this week.
I think this, and be able tofeel comfortable to have that
both ways.
So I think, great teams areunderpinned by honesty.
Arthur (08:14):
you played in England U19 and U21 level, but Scotland
as a senior, can you tell usabout that?
Jim (08:22):
Oh yeah, some might say I wasn't good enough to play for
England, but I begged to differ.
I grew up in Scotland, so I'vealways had a Scottish link.
My name Jim Hamilton is veryScottish.
It's more Scottish than WilliamWallace and I was playing at
Leicester.
I was in a very good team.
And the players in my positionfor England were very, good.
(08:44):
It was probably the mostdifficult position to make it
into the England team.
but I always knew there was anopportunity to play for Scotland
and it wasn't'cause I didn'tfeel I was good enough to play
for England.
I was at the point in life whereI fancied a little bit of a
change and Scotland cameknocking.
there was a World Cup around thecorner, in 2007 and my.
(09:07):
Gut feeling, which is what Ialways say to go with your gut
feeling, was to make a changeand to open up a new opportunity
in my life.
I, was very Leicester, I grew upin Coventry, in the Midlands.
it was very a close-knit group,but I felt like if I was gonna
take the next step and get tothe next level, which is
(09:28):
international, to play in WorldCups and try and become a
British Irish lion.
That I needed somethingdifferent.
So I made the decision at theage of 22 to play for Scotland.
Arthur (09:38):
if you hadn't made it in rugby, what would've you done in
your career?
Jim (09:42):
I always wanted to join the Army.
So my dad was in the Army.
I grew up in the Army.
That's why I don't have aScottish accent because we
traveled around a lot.
I lived in Northern Ireland, Ilived in Germany.
we lived.
Down south as well.
all my friends joined themilitary as well.
I was in the Air Cadets.
I was in the Army Cadets when Iwas younger, so I had a real
(10:03):
interest in that.
And yeah, I, would've wanted tojoin the military and I still
have a close connection with alot of people in the military.
I'm glad I didn't because thelife and the career that I had
was really cool and special.
But there's a part of me that,oh, what if.
You know what, what would'velooked like, but it would've
been in a difficult time'causeof the wars and stuff like that
(10:27):
were around.
there's a part of me that's gladthat didn't happen.
Arthur (10:32):
were there any rituals you had before a game?
Jim (10:35):
Yeah, towards the end of my career.
'cause I had dodgy fingers.
I had to strap my fingers up soI would strap them in a certain
way.
Was a little bit of a ritual.
And then towards the end of mycareer, someone said to me, I
remember a great captain camein, Jason White, who Captain
Scotland, probably one of thegreatest players to have played
for Scotland, and said that thegame will leave you so quickly,
(10:59):
as quickly as it comes, it goesbe in the moment.
And I always listen to musicbefore the game and then after
he said that.
I didn't listen to musicanymore, so I had a ritual of
listening to music.
And then I had a ritual of neverlistened to music before a game,
so I could really enjoyeverything that surrounded that
and being in the moment.
no real ritual, strapping thefingers a certain way, maybe.
(11:23):
but I would say that, notlistening to music, if you can
call that a ritual.
Arthur (11:28):
When you did listen to music, what was your favourite
song to listen to before a
Jim (11:32):
Ah, it was Eminem not afraid.
Yeah, I dunno if, I dunno, maybedon't listen to Eminem just yet.
there's a few fruity words inthere.
But yeah, this was the thing,Arthur, because my career, part
of the legacy was there was alot of fighting and a lot of
yellow cards and a lot of redcards.
And I put that down to a lot ofangry music that I would listen
to the lead up.
(11:53):
if I had my time again, I'dmaybe listen to something more
chill.
I actually used to listen to BobMarley as well, randomly.
Yeah.
Bob Marley a little bit Fugeesas well.
It's all coming back to me.
Arthur (12:03):
Were there any mantras that you live by?
Jim (12:06):
Go as hard as you can go.
That was it.
I always said to myself, afterrugby, I could look myself in
the mirror and say I couldn'tgive any more.
And that didn't happen all thetime.
You know what I mean?
It's all well in good.
Going in with, a mantra orsomething that you want to be
defined by.
But I always said, go as hard asyou can go give it your very
(12:26):
best.
And if you can, look yourself inthe mirror.
And every time I played forScotland, Arthur, I could look
myself in the mirror and saythat I could not have given
anymore.
Some of it wasn't great, a lotof the time.
there'd be lots of things thatyou want to work on.
But I could always look myselfin the mirror and say, I gave
absolutely everything.
Arthur (12:44):
how did you react to other people's mistakes?
Jim (12:47):
not like Owen Farrell by shouting at everyone, but maybe
I should have.
I had a little bit of empathyfor people.
Really.
we all make mistakes, at thehighest level.
Obviously, it can becomeproblematic to the team if you
carry on making mistakes.
I get that.
it's frustrating.
I understand that.
(13:07):
But to other people's mistakes,I've always be positive.
I did have leadership qualities.
I was captain and stuff ofGloucester.
I, was a senior in, a lot of theteams that I was in, like in the
leadership team.
I don't think anyone reacts wellto being shouted at or to be
made fun of when that happens.
So I always made sure that I putan arm around, next job, all of
(13:29):
these things.
but I, hope I was a positiveinfluence on people who made
mistakes.
Arthur (13:35):
What's the hardest part about playing second row?
Jim (13:38):
You are involved in a lot of things.
So you're involved in thejumping, you're involved in the
scrums, in the rucks.
You have to tackle, you have topass.
So it's a position where youhave to be very multi-skilled.
But I'd say the hardest part ofbeing in the second row would be
being in the scrum.
So you are in the middle of thescrum.
behind the props you're havingto push, you are in a really
(13:59):
awkward position, quite astressful position as well.
There's weight coming in up thefront.
There's weight coming up theback from the number eight as
well, and you are in a very lowuncomfortable position.
So I would say scrummaging wasprobably the hardest part
Arthur (14:13):
if you could have your rugby career all over again,
what position would you chooseto play?
Jim (14:18):
centre.
Arthur (14:19):
Why centre?
Jim (14:20):
I think it's cool.
I think it's a cool position.
I think in with the centre, youget many touches of the ball.
You are, you have to probably bethe best rugby player on the
pitch, because you have to beable to defend, you have to be
able to carry, you have to beable to distribute, you have to
be able to kick, you have toread the game.
I just think it's a coolposition, like number 10
(14:42):
obviously, right?
Would be the easy one to say,like the best players or the
highest profile players, FinnRussell.
Owen Farrell, Dan Carter,whoever it is.
Jonny, the Great JonnyWilkinson.
But I would say centre.
Hey, what position do you play?
Arthur (14:56):
I play Fly-Half.
Jim (14:57):
There you go.
And who's your favouriteplayerer?
Arthur (15:00):
I really like Dan Bigger and Marcus Smith
Jim (15:03):
Oh, do you?
Okay.
Why do you like them?
Arthur (15:05):
with Dan Bigger.
I always love how he leads onthe field and a captain as well.
And Marcus Smith, I love hisflair.
On the pitch, he is.
Every time he's on the ball, thecrowd goes, stands up.
Jim (15:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's good, isn't it, whereyou've got Yeah, and they, are
two very different players aswell, so that's cool that you
mentioned both of them, likeDan, who we do the podcast with,
obviously.
he used to shout at his players,get him on.
Get him on and ask him thatquestion.
'cause he used to shout all histeammates, but that's because he
was a fierce competitor and hadhigh standards, so...
Arthur (15:38):
what's the be best bit about being a second row?
Jim (15:41):
That you are involved in a lot of the things that make the
game tick.
So Lineout, you're doing kind ofskills that are very difficult.
So Lineout, kickoff.
You know what I mean?
Kickoff's one of the hardestskills in rugby.
But when you get that and I veryrarely did, but when I did my
word, it looked good.
You go up for the ball and youwere, a hundred foot up in the
(16:02):
air doing a skill that is verydifficult to do.
you're involved in charge down.
So if the Scrum-Halfs now youlove charging down the
Scrum-Halfs and you are alsoallowed, or you were allowed.
Are you still allowed?
You saw that in the Lions.
When Will Skelton and Maro Itojewere grabbing each other?
In the second row, you areallowed to do that.
Do you know what I mean?
there's a bit, it's the secondrows, they're allowed to do
(16:24):
that.
So I did enjoy that part of thegame.
Arthur (16:27):
What's the biggest challenge you faced as a rugby
player?
Jim (16:30):
Biggest challenge were injuries, mate.
and I say this to young kids, Isay this to parents as well.
When you play rugby, you'regonna get injured, right?
it's not a matter of if it'swhen, and it's how you deal with
them injuries.
Mentally, if you're out ofcontract, if you get injured at
the end of your contract and youare worried because it's
(16:52):
professional sport andsometimes, it could be
difficult, if you break your legor you do a ligament or
something and it's your job.
So it's not just a hobby, it'snot just something that you love
doing.
So I'd say the injuries weredifficult to deal with.
And then towards the end of yourcareer, getting old when you
can't actually do what you wantto do.
(17:12):
Your mind wants to do something,but your body's telling you no
and it's had enough.
So yeah, I'd say the injuries,but then obviously towards the
end of your career.
But I'd say retiring mate, whenyou finish, that's the hardest
part.
'cause you don't get to do whatyou love and what you, are known
for, which is playing sport.
Arthur (17:31):
As you talked about injuries, what was the worst
injury that you ever had?
Jim (17:35):
Oh, Arthur, do you really want to know that?
Yeah, there's, there were a fewbroken legs.
I broke my sternum, which wasquite sore.
I got handed off by Tagicakibau,who played for London Irish.
I was playing for Leicester and,just hit mely, broke my sternum.
Had to sleep, sleep upright forabout eight weeks.
Like with the pillow, Icouldn't, lie, down straight.
(17:56):
It still gives me issues today.
got a finger in the eye by myown player.
Had to have my eyelidreconstructed, had 18 stitches
to do that.
but you wear'em as, as warwounds, as scars of, of stories
and each one tells that.
But, there's a beauty in that,not an injury, but that's part
and parcel of the game, andthat's why we play the game as
(18:18):
well, because it's tough and noteveryone can do it at the
highest level.
And there's a, kind of romancein that as well.
Arthur (18:24):
Do they make you look scary on the picture when you
have scars?
Jim (18:27):
Oh, they do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm quite lucky or unlucky.
I don't have cauliflower ears,but I've got a few scars.
You can't see the camera's toogood on here.
makes me look younger.
But yeah, so if it's, if you seesome pictures, I've got like
holes in my cheekbones and I'vegot scars and stuff like that,
and yeah, there's a part of methat likes it.
Arthur (18:46):
Who's the best player you've played with or against?
Jim (18:49):
There'd be a few mate.
played with some great players.
That Saracens team, the likes ofOwen Farrell, Owen Farrell, Maro
Itoje, the Vunipolas, BradBarritt, who was the centre, was
absolutely phenomenal.
He was a brilliant captain.
he'd be up there, but I thinkthe best player was a guy.
Again, I keep going back to yourdad'cause it could have been his
(19:10):
era, but James Simpson, Daniel,who I played for Gloucester,
where there was a winger.
And if you YouTube JamesSimpson, Daniel Arthur, or your
listeners do, he skinned thegreat Jonah Lomu whilst playing
for England.
So Jonah Lomu was playing forthe Barbarians and James
Simpson.
Daniel did this thing where hewent to throw the ball for a
switch, caught it midair, andthen skinned the great Jonah
(19:30):
Lomu.
And he had loads of injuries.
But my word, he was a, mercurialtalent.
He was absolutely world class.
So James Simpson Daniel wasprobably the best player I've
ever played with.
Arthur (19:40):
You, captained Gloucester, what would you say
makes a great captain?
Jim (19:45):
yeah, I loved Captaining Gloucester.
such great memories there.
a team like Leicester where theRugby's central to the city,
probably more so in Gloucesterbecause the football team isn't
like Leicester.
as a captain, it goes back tothe great teams of being honest.
(20:05):
I always.
Feel like a great captain issomeone that can deliver what
they say.
So I never went in there andsaid, oh, let's make sure that,
our discipline is, amazing.
Let's not make sure that, wedon't drop the ball or anything
like that.
I just wanted people to workincredibly hard and give
everything that they had to theteam, and I think that's what
(20:27):
makes a good, a great captain issomeone that says what they do.
Arthur (20:31):
You played for five different clubs.
How did you navigate being thenew person in an established
squad?
Jim (20:38):
it's fairly easy in a rugby team because there's a
brotherhood there.
it's they're your people, samekind of people, and you are
going in there to make the teambetter.
That's why you've been broughtin.
it takes a while, a few weeksto.
Earn the respect, but you dothat as soon as you get on the
(20:59):
pitch.
So you get on the pitch and youplay how you've been bought into
play.
And then it's very quickly tointegrate.
But all the teams are verysimilar.
you go into any team, it's agroup of men, that are all
silly, that are all smelly, and,they're out there to play one of
the most wonderful games on theplanet of rugby.
(21:21):
And, you are part of that.
Arthur (21:22):
What was your favourite team you've ever played?
Jim (21:24):
My favourite team would've been Leicester, the start of my
career.
they were so good mate.
They, we won Premierships, wewon Champions Cups.
We had players in there that wonthe World Cup with England.
We had icons of the game andjust the way that they went
about business, mate.
They were old school, they weregnarly.
(21:47):
You had to earn your stripes,pun intended.
You had to earn what it was toplay for Leicester and I really
liked that old school mentality.
And if it wasn't for Leicestermate, I wouldn't be where I am
now.
I dunno where I would be.
So they looked after me as ayoung man as well, so I can't
speak hardly enough for them.
Arthur (22:03):
What wisdom do you have now that you wished you had when
you started out in Your career.
Jim (22:08):
I'd say the value of role models on young men more so than
ever.
the value of having greatcoaches and great people around
Your life could be tough nownavigating through Arthur,
especially as, young men.
With all of these things, rugbygives you a real foundations of
(22:28):
life because if there's acontact element, there's a team
element.
there's winning, there's losing.
You get to travel the world.
So I think the, kind offoundations of that and the
wisdom that you learn from yourfellow players, but also the
coaches, the importance of acoach seeing something in you.
(22:49):
It doesn't need to be everycoach.
Not every coach will like you,but the value in a teacher.
A coach, a fitness coach, aphysio, and having that
relationship, for sure is, issomething that I value and
that's why I'm here.
Do you know what I mean?
I've got asked to come on here.
I think it's important that Ishare some of these things with
someone like you.
(23:10):
And if you take something fromme or if you take something from
flats or anyone that you haveon, that's wisdom.
And that is also sharing andbeing part of that group of men.
You get many of them peoplealong the way that help you in
your journey as growing into ayoung adult.
Arthur (23:31):
Who's the best coach you had and why?
Jim (23:33):
Dean Richards, again at Leicester.
So Dean Richards was a man ofthe people.
So he was an old school coach,but he treated you like a man.
some coaches will treat you asif like they're older and you
are younger and quiteheadmaster, they're the teacher
(23:54):
if you are the pupil.
Whereas Dean Richards leveledwith you and valued you as a,
man and, It is different.
You get different coaches, somelike you make, some don't.
And I went through my career,had some coaches that love me
and I had some coaches thatreally, dislike me and that's
part of life.
But I say that Dean Richards,and Dean Ryan as well, who
(24:17):
coached Scotland, for one sixNations in 2013, and we finished
the highest we've ever finished.
And I thought he was a greatcoach as well.
Arthur (24:25):
Thank you.
what was your favourite momentof your rugby career?
Jim (24:29):
My favourite moment was my 50th cap for Scotland.
not just to make 50 caps, but Ihad my son there, Jack James, JJ
with me, my first born child.
And, you start rugby withoutchildren and then as you grow
into a young man and you getmarried, you have children.
not everyone, some people, butwe did.
(24:50):
And to get to run out atMurrayfield playing for
Scotland, which I absolutelyadored an evening game against
Australia.
singing the anthem holding myson was something that I'll
never forget and that's whatstands out.
But there were many, mate, I wonthe Champions Cup.
There were some big moments, butthe one that stands out is
definitely doing that with, myson, playing for the country
(25:10):
that I love.
Arthur (25:11):
What do you miss most about playing rugby?
Jim (25:14):
My mates.
Yeah, I think it's, you'll knowbeing at school, being in the
team that you are in.
Nothing better than being outthere with your mates, right?
Winning, losing, learning.
The ups, the downs, the feelingof being together.
you'll never replicate thatagain.
What?
And that's why a lot of playersmy age, when they retire, they,
(25:37):
go back out there and they doit, and they play these games
and these charity games andthey're all old and their bones
are all broken.
But mate, I miss the boys, Imiss my friends.
yeah, I miss the men.
That would be the number onething.
Arthur (25:50):
Do you talk to a lot of them still today?
Jim (25:54):
Not as much as I should.
Not as much as we should.
I try to, I, reach out to them,but everyone's busy.
They've got children they've gotfamilies.
We're in this midlife.
Again, I keep referencing yourdad.
Your dad will know you're inthis middle period of hustling
and working out what's next.
But yeah, you should, we shouldchat more.
And Arthur, after this, maybe Iwill, I'll start reaching out to
(26:16):
a few of the other ones.
Arthur (26:17):
How did you go from a rugby player to a podcast
presenter?
Jim (26:21):
I dunno, mate, I dunno how it happened.
you know what?
I, it happened organically.
It happened naturally.
I wanted to do a podcast onrugby.
I listened to podcasts beforepodcasts were even podcasts,
mate.
so I used to travel, listen tocrime podcasts.
listened to Joe Rogan, whoobviously has got the biggest
podcast in the world.
So I listened to when he wasdoing a UFC podcast and thought,
(26:44):
oh, you know what?
There's some great characters inthis game, some brilliant people
that no one knows about.
People just think, we're justidiots going around playing a
sport that no one understands,and there's so many cool people
and cool stories.
So we started 10 years ago andwe never knew what it would turn
into, and it's turned into thisand inspiring people like you to
(27:05):
do your own show.
and other people as well.
So yeah, it happened naturally,mate.
And that's been the real beautyin what we've done.
Arthur (27:14):
Thank you.
Jim (27:16):
You were two when we started.
You were two years old.
Sorry.
just, put it out there.
I know you're a youngster.
I know you were listening backthen
Arthur (27:25):
What did you enjoy, about most about doing your
podcasts?
Jim (27:30):
just chatting about rugby.
Just chatting, doing it withmates, naturally.
and chatting about the game thatgave me so much and not thinking
too much about it.
I don't think too much about it.
We turn up every week.
it's a joy.
and I love the fact that we makea lot of people happy.
(27:52):
it was never meant to be athing, sometimes when you stop
and think I have to now,'causeyou've asked me the question,
it's just really cool.
It's, a cool thing to do.
It's free.
People can listen to podcastsfor free.
People will listen to this forfree, and you get to meet some
brilliant people along the way,which I have done with my own
podcast and with the rugby onethat I've done.
(28:13):
and you all know that when yougo on your journey, do you know
what I mean?
The fact that we can do this andthen you'll publish it, and for
the world to listen to, and theworld to see for free.
It's a, really cool concept.
Arthur (28:24):
Who would you say is your favourite player you've had
on your podcast?
Jim (28:30):
oh.
Who's my favourite player?
We've had on the rugby pod.
We've had many, so we've hadloads and loads, so I could, I
could pick any from that.
I think for me personally, I gotto interview Pieter steph du
toit in Japan last year, so Iwent to a lovely place called
Nagoya, where he's playing.
And it was off the back of theWorld Cup where South Africa won
(28:51):
the World Cup.
And he put in arguably one ofthe greatest performances, that
we've ever seen in the World Cupfinal.
I think he made like 27 tackles,let's call it 30 tackles.
And I went to Nagoya, I went toJapan to interview a lot of
players.
Ardie Savea Eddie Jones, Damiande Allende Ande, Brodie
Retallick.
And I couldn't wait to meetpieter steph du toit.
(29:13):
Not that he's a hero of mine,but he's an icon of the game.
He's an incredible athlete.
And it was one of them wheredon't meet your heroes.
And because they don't live upto what you'd want them to be or
what they are, he was everythingyou'd hoped he'd be just a
brilliant, warm human being anda fantastic player.
So he's the one that kind ofsticks out for me, his pieter
(29:34):
steph du toit.
Arthur (29:36):
Thank you.
And if it's okay, could I do aquick fire round?
Jim (29:40):
Oh, of course you can do whatever you want, mate.
It's your show
Arthur (29:43):
So what was your favourite match?
Jim (29:45):
favourite match would have been against Ireland in Croke
Park in 2010.
They were on for a grand slamand we beat'em, and I played and
got man of the match.
I might not have got man of thematch, but just for this, we say
I did
Arthur (29:58):
And what's your favourite trophy?
Jim (30:01):
My favourite trophy was winning.
The A-League for Leicester withall my mates and Matt Hampson.
Matt Hampson is in a wheelchairnow.
He's a, quadriplegic for doingamazing things with the Matt
Hampson Foundation.
Matt Hampson was playing, Imentioned Harry was playing.
So all them guys I mentioned atthe start of the show, we won
(30:22):
the A-League for Leicester.
I still remember like it wasyesterday.
It was brilliant.
Arthur (30:26):
And who was your, who was, what was your favourite try
you've ever scored?
Jim (30:31):
No, I didn't score many.
I did not score many, but I'mgonna say there was a hat trick
against India back in the day.
I scored three tries againstIndia, which was iconic.
So I'd say then, but also my onetry for Scotland away in
Argentina.
we won the series down there.
yeah, so my one try for Scotlandwas probably my favourite try.
Arthur (30:51):
And what was your favourite meal before a game?
Jim (30:54):
favourite meal porridge, pasta, chicken.
Lots of carbs, mate.
You shouldn't eat too many carbswhen you get old, you're fine to
eat them now, but I would say Iused to love porridge and honey
and peanut butter.
Just, yeah, something that couldfill you up.
Used to love that.
Arthur (31:10):
Thank you.
And last question, who of yourrugby mates would you recommend
to be on my podcast?
Jim (31:17):
Who else have you had on?
Who's been your favourite sofar?
Arthur (31:20):
All of them really.
They've all been so good andbrilliant.
Jim (31:23):
Tell me who you want.
Who do you want?
Who would be your dream guest?
It doesn't matter what I think.
Yeah.
Arthur (31:30):
probably Siya Kolisi or I'd quite Maro Itoje.
Jim (31:37):
There you go.
I'm sure we can make it happen,mate, because this podcast is
going somewhere.
So it's, I've had Siya Kolisi onthe show before.
He's a brilliant, human being.
He's a guy that has, It iscalled transcended the Game,
like you talk about icons ofsport.
He's an icon of South Africa andhe's just a brilliant, human
(31:58):
being.
So I'm sure at some point you'llget Siya Kolisi
Arthur (32:02):
And I just wanna say thanks so much for taking your
time to our podcast.
I really appreciate it
Jim (32:07):
anytime.
It's an honour for me to be onArthur.
Thank you.
Arthur (32:11):
and I love watching your podcast.
They're brilliant on, onSpotify, TikTok, and Instagram.
Jim (32:16):
Thanks mate.
That's, I, appreciate the plugthere.
The more listeners, the better.
Thank you.
Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends
podcast.
In each episode, I interview anamazing rugby player or coach to
get their insight and advice foryoung rugby players just like
me, who are keen to learn andget better.
In this episode, I'm very happyto be speaking with the Man
Mountain that is the ex-Scotlandsecond row, Jim Hamilton.
(00:27):
Jim was a powerhouse lock whoplayed most of his rugby career
at Leicester Tigers, Gloucester,and Saracens.
At Saracens, he won bothPremiership and European
champion's cup twice.
Jim was capped 63 times byScotland over a 10 year period
and retired from all forms ofrugby in 2017.
(00:48):
Many of you know Jim from TheBig Jim Show podcast, and as a
co-presenter of the world'snumber one rugby podcast, the
Rugby Pod.
I hope you find Jim's knowledgeand wisdom as helpful as I did,
enjoy.
Arthur (01:07):
Jim, how did you get into rugby and how old were you
when you started?
Jim (01:12):
Arthur, I was older than you when I started, so you are
12 years old.
At the age of 15 I was six footseven, six foot eight.
So I actually enjoyed playingfootball,'cause I grew up on the
mean streets of a place calledCoventry and there wasn't a huge
amount of Rugby where I was.
but because I was so big,football wasn't for me.
(01:34):
And there was a local rugby clubcalled Barkers Butts that has
produced some of the, greatrugby players of years gone by.
And your, I don't expect you tonecessarily know them, but I'm
sure that your, mum and dadmight.
Leon Lloyd, Neil Back, DannyGrewcock.
There was a guy called Tom Woodas well, who was my neighbour.
So there was a really good rugbyclub up the road, and because I
(01:56):
was so big, I got picked up toplay there at about the age of
15 or 16.
And then off the back of that, Igot picked up by Leicester
Tigers, who back in the day werelooking for very big human
beings.
And I wasn't amazing at rugby,but I was a very big human
being.
So in answer to your question, Ididn't start playing until I was
about 15, 16 years old.
Arthur (02:16):
what position did you play in football?
Jim (02:19):
Oh, that's a good question.
I was a centre midfield.
I wanted to be an attacker.
I was good at the corners andheaded them in.
But I was a central midfielder.
scored a goal.
Once from the halfway line, Iwent to clear the ball.
It went top right hand corner.
So that's my only, positive whenit comes to football.
Arthur (02:39):
Do you support Coventry in football Then?
Jim (02:41):
Do I now they're good I do, Yeah! I'm a bit of a glory
supporter.
So Man United, I supported themwhen I was a little bit younger
as well, when they were reallygood.
and they had Ryan Giggs andBeckham and Paul Scholes and all
of these legends playing.
but yeah, I'd say I, loosleysupport Coventry.
I support Rangers as well inScotland.
My dad was a Rangers fan, butprobably Man United, but not at
(03:05):
the minute, because they're notvery good.
Arthur (03:06):
What skill did you have to work the hardest on?
Jim (03:09):
Oh, there was a few skills, Arthur, I dunno if you saw me
play back in the day, but therewas a few skills that I needed
to work hard on.
one of the most difficultthings, and I say this to my
children as well and to youngkids who want to play.
You have to be an incredibleathlete to play rugby,
especially now, and I was big,but I wasn't an incredible
(03:29):
athlete.
I didn't do a huge amount oflike athletic movement, and I
didn't obviously do gymnasticsor karate or judo or sprint
training when I was younger.
And that's what you need to be.
You need to be a great athlete,you need to be able to move
well.
So I constantly had to work onmy speed.
I wasn't the quickest.
I was probably one of theslowest.
If not the slowest players whohave ever played for Scotland.
(03:53):
yeah.
So I'd have to work constantlyon running and trying to run
fast and because I was 19, 20stone, getting'em off, getting
up off the floor in thesethings.
So yeah, I would say that the,speed side of the game was
something that I constantly hadto be thinking about.
Arthur (04:10):
That's very interesting.
Thank you.
Which player inspired yougrowing up and what was
inspiring about them?
Jim (04:17):
Yeah, so there was a couple of players.
So the shirt that you arewearing, Leicester Tigers back
in the day were one of the bestteams in the world, if not the
best club team in the world.
Martin Johnson was the captain.
He was the captain of England.
He was the captain of the Lions,and he was my position.
So he was a player that I lookedup to.
that I tried to mould my gameon.
(04:38):
So I'd say that definitelyMartin Johnson.
And then the other one would'vebeen the great, the late Doddie
Weir as well.
So I loved Doddie as a player,way before everything came out
about his illness.
Young Arthur, he was a brilliantman, and I didn't model just my
game on him.
I modeled my after career, myafter game, what life was like
(05:01):
after rugby beyond Doddie,because he had this great.
Ability to make people laugh, tomake people feel comfortable.
and the fact that he was in myposition playing for Scotland
wore the same number as me, wasa British Irish lion as well.
But the way that he conductedhimself, so I would say the two
would be Martin Johnson and thegreat, the late Doddie Wear.
Arthur (05:22):
When did you know you were going to make it as a
professional?
Jim (05:26):
I questioned that every time, every week, every day.
because, I wasn't destined to bea professional rugby player.
It wasn't something that Iaspired to be.
It wasn't something that Ithought was even possible, mate.
But I think.
I knew, when you get your firstcontract, and I think when you
(05:46):
play your first professionalgame, and you know that you can
mix it with the best andphysically you can stand up to
it.
And I suppose, your first bigtackle, the first big run that
you have with the ball, is whenyou stop, not doubting yourself,
but you think, right?
Yeah.
I can mix it with the big boysnow.
So I imagine when I was around21.
(06:08):
When I broke into the LeicesterTigers first team properly,
where I was like, this is thereal deal now.
I don't need to join the Armyanymore.
I can play rugby.
Arthur (06:17):
And who's your best mate at Leicester Tigers Team.
When you joined?
Jim (06:20):
Oh, my best mate.
I had a few best, we had areally good group of lads, very,
lucky.
So you had the older playerslike Martin Johnsons and your
Ben Kays.
They would've been in the sameera as Dave Flatman, who I know
you've had on your show, but.
My would've been a guy calledBrett Deacon.
He's the forwards coach atLeicester now.
He was the best man at mywedding.
my mate, Slugger Ravo, he'dplayed at Leicester, but More
(06:44):
played for Nottingham, which wasthe sister team to the Tigers.
Harry Ellis played Scrum-Half aswell, for Leicester.
So there was a great group,Ollie Smith, who played in the
centre.
Yeah, so I could name 20 guys inthat team who were my best
mates.
But for Scotland, my best matewas Kelly Brown.
So Kelly Brown, if you dunno whohe is, as soon as you look him
(07:06):
up, you'll see massive set ofeyebrows.
it doesn't, look like he's real.
and his name's Kelly and somepeople said it was a girl's
name, but I quite enjoyed him.
So he was, he's my best matestill.
Arthur (07:17):
And as you're talking about teams, what would you say
makes a great team?
Jim (07:21):
rugby's different to a lot of other teams, right?
Because it's, you have to bephysical, but you need to be
skillful.
You need guys that can kick.
what makes a great team?
I know the answer to this.
I don't want to go too deep onyou, Arthur, but I was at,
Saracens and we won stuff whenwe were there.
I was at Leicester when we wonstuff with without.
(07:41):
I played for Scotland for 10years and we didn't win a huge
amount.
What makes a great team ishonesty, but able to have honest
conversations with yourteammates.
Being able to have honestconversations with your coaches
and for them to be able to havehonest conversations with you
and to be able to say, youweren't good enough this week,
or you've been able to go to thecoach and say, coach, I don't
(08:03):
believe in the game plan thatwe're playing this week.
I think this, and be able tofeel comfortable to have that
both ways.
So I think, great teams areunderpinned by honesty.
Arthur (08:14):
you played in England U19 and U21 level, but Scotland
as a senior, can you tell usabout that?
Jim (08:22):
Oh yeah, some might say I wasn't good enough to play for
England, but I begged to differ.
I grew up in Scotland, so I'vealways had a Scottish link.
My name Jim Hamilton is veryScottish.
It's more Scottish than WilliamWallace and I was playing at
Leicester.
I was in a very good team.
And the players in my positionfor England were very, good.
(08:44):
It was probably the mostdifficult position to make it
into the England team.
but I always knew there was anopportunity to play for Scotland
and it wasn't'cause I didn'tfeel I was good enough to play
for England.
I was at the point in life whereI fancied a little bit of a
change and Scotland cameknocking.
there was a World Cup around thecorner, in 2007 and my.
(09:07):
Gut feeling, which is what Ialways say to go with your gut
feeling, was to make a changeand to open up a new opportunity
in my life.
I, was very Leicester, I grew upin Coventry, in the Midlands.
it was very a close-knit group,but I felt like if I was gonna
take the next step and get tothe next level, which is
(09:28):
international, to play in WorldCups and try and become a
British Irish lion.
That I needed somethingdifferent.
So I made the decision at theage of 22 to play for Scotland.
Arthur (09:38):
if you hadn't made it in rugby, what would've you done in
your career?
Jim (09:42):
I always wanted to join the Army.
So my dad was in the Army.
I grew up in the Army.
That's why I don't have aScottish accent because we
traveled around a lot.
I lived in Northern Ireland, Ilived in Germany.
we lived.
Down south as well.
all my friends joined themilitary as well.
I was in the Air Cadets.
I was in the Army Cadets when Iwas younger, so I had a real
(10:03):
interest in that.
And yeah, I, would've wanted tojoin the military and I still
have a close connection with alot of people in the military.
I'm glad I didn't because thelife and the career that I had
was really cool and special.
But there's a part of me that,oh, what if.
You know what, what would'velooked like, but it would've
been in a difficult time'causeof the wars and stuff like that
(10:27):
were around.
there's a part of me that's gladthat didn't happen.
Arthur (10:32):
were there any rituals you had before a game?
Jim (10:35):
Yeah, towards the end of my career.
'cause I had dodgy fingers.
I had to strap my fingers up soI would strap them in a certain
way.
Was a little bit of a ritual.
And then towards the end of mycareer, someone said to me, I
remember a great captain camein, Jason White, who Captain
Scotland, probably one of thegreatest players to have played
for Scotland, and said that thegame will leave you so quickly,
(10:59):
as quickly as it comes, it goesbe in the moment.
And I always listen to musicbefore the game and then after
he said that.
I didn't listen to musicanymore, so I had a ritual of
listening to music.
And then I had a ritual of neverlistened to music before a game,
so I could really enjoyeverything that surrounded that
and being in the moment.
no real ritual, strapping thefingers a certain way, maybe.
(11:23):
but I would say that, notlistening to music, if you can
call that a ritual.
Arthur (11:28):
When you did listen to music, what was your favourite
song to listen to before a
Jim (11:32):
Ah, it was Eminem not afraid.
Yeah, I dunno if, I dunno, maybedon't listen to Eminem just yet.
there's a few fruity words inthere.
But yeah, this was the thing,Arthur, because my career, part
of the legacy was there was alot of fighting and a lot of
yellow cards and a lot of redcards.
And I put that down to a lot ofangry music that I would listen
to the lead up.
(11:53):
if I had my time again, I'dmaybe listen to something more
chill.
I actually used to listen to BobMarley as well, randomly.
Yeah.
Bob Marley a little bit Fugeesas well.
It's all coming back to me.
Arthur (12:03):
Were there any mantras that you live by?
Jim (12:06):
Go as hard as you can go.
That was it.
I always said to myself, afterrugby, I could look myself in
the mirror and say I couldn'tgive any more.
And that didn't happen all thetime.
You know what I mean?
It's all well in good.
Going in with, a mantra orsomething that you want to be
defined by.
But I always said, go as hard asyou can go give it your very
(12:26):
best.
And if you can, look yourself inthe mirror.
And every time I played forScotland, Arthur, I could look
myself in the mirror and saythat I could not have given
anymore.
Some of it wasn't great, a lotof the time.
there'd be lots of things thatyou want to work on.
But I could always look myselfin the mirror and say, I gave
absolutely everything.
Arthur (12:44):
how did you react to other people's mistakes?
Jim (12:47):
not like Owen Farrell by shouting at everyone, but maybe
I should have.
I had a little bit of empathyfor people.
Really.
we all make mistakes, at thehighest level.
Obviously, it can becomeproblematic to the team if you
carry on making mistakes.
I get that.
it's frustrating.
I understand that.
(13:07):
But to other people's mistakes,I've always be positive.
I did have leadership qualities.
I was captain and stuff ofGloucester.
I, was a senior in, a lot of theteams that I was in, like in the
leadership team.
I don't think anyone reacts wellto being shouted at or to be
made fun of when that happens.
So I always made sure that I putan arm around, next job, all of
(13:29):
these things.
but I, hope I was a positiveinfluence on people who made
mistakes.
Arthur (13:35):
What's the hardest part about playing second row?
Jim (13:38):
You are involved in a lot of things.
So you're involved in thejumping, you're involved in the
scrums, in the rucks.
You have to tackle, you have topass.
So it's a position where youhave to be very multi-skilled.
But I'd say the hardest part ofbeing in the second row would be
being in the scrum.
So you are in the middle of thescrum.
behind the props you're havingto push, you are in a really
(13:59):
awkward position, quite astressful position as well.
There's weight coming in up thefront.
There's weight coming up theback from the number eight as
well, and you are in a very lowuncomfortable position.
So I would say scrummaging wasprobably the hardest part
Arthur (14:13):
if you could have your rugby career all over again,
what position would you chooseto play?
Jim (14:18):
centre.
Arthur (14:19):
Why centre?
Jim (14:20):
I think it's cool.
I think it's a cool position.
I think in with the centre, youget many touches of the ball.
You are, you have to probably bethe best rugby player on the
pitch, because you have to beable to defend, you have to be
able to carry, you have to beable to distribute, you have to
be able to kick, you have toread the game.
I just think it's a coolposition, like number 10
(14:42):
obviously, right?
Would be the easy one to say,like the best players or the
highest profile players, FinnRussell.
Owen Farrell, Dan Carter,whoever it is.
Jonny, the Great JonnyWilkinson.
But I would say centre.
Hey, what position do you play?
Arthur (14:56):
I play Fly-Half.
Jim (14:57):
There you go.
And who's your favouriteplayerer?
Arthur (15:00):
I really like Dan Bigger and Marcus Smith
Jim (15:03):
Oh, do you?
Okay.
Why do you like them?
Arthur (15:05):
with Dan Bigger.
I always love how he leads onthe field and a captain as well.
And Marcus Smith, I love hisflair.
On the pitch, he is.
Every time he's on the ball, thecrowd goes, stands up.
Jim (15:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So that's good, isn't it, whereyou've got Yeah, and they, are
two very different players aswell, so that's cool that you
mentioned both of them, likeDan, who we do the podcast with,
obviously.
he used to shout at his players,get him on.
Get him on and ask him thatquestion.
'cause he used to shout all histeammates, but that's because he
was a fierce competitor and hadhigh standards, so...
Arthur (15:38):
what's the be best bit about being a second row?
Jim (15:41):
That you are involved in a lot of the things that make the
game tick.
So Lineout, you're doing kind ofskills that are very difficult.
So Lineout, kickoff.
You know what I mean?
Kickoff's one of the hardestskills in rugby.
But when you get that and I veryrarely did, but when I did my
word, it looked good.
You go up for the ball and youwere, a hundred foot up in the
(16:02):
air doing a skill that is verydifficult to do.
you're involved in charge down.
So if the Scrum-Halfs now youlove charging down the
Scrum-Halfs and you are alsoallowed, or you were allowed.
Are you still allowed?
You saw that in the Lions.
When Will Skelton and Maro Itojewere grabbing each other?
In the second row, you areallowed to do that.
Do you know what I mean?
there's a bit, it's the secondrows, they're allowed to do
(16:24):
that.
So I did enjoy that part of thegame.
Arthur (16:27):
What's the biggest challenge you faced as a rugby
player?
Jim (16:30):
Biggest challenge were injuries, mate.
and I say this to young kids, Isay this to parents as well.
When you play rugby, you'regonna get injured, right?
it's not a matter of if it'swhen, and it's how you deal with
them injuries.
Mentally, if you're out ofcontract, if you get injured at
the end of your contract and youare worried because it's
(16:52):
professional sport andsometimes, it could be
difficult, if you break your legor you do a ligament or
something and it's your job.
So it's not just a hobby, it'snot just something that you love
doing.
So I'd say the injuries weredifficult to deal with.
And then towards the end of yourcareer, getting old when you
can't actually do what you wantto do.
(17:12):
Your mind wants to do something,but your body's telling you no
and it's had enough.
So yeah, I'd say the injuries,but then obviously towards the
end of your career.
But I'd say retiring mate, whenyou finish, that's the hardest
part.
'cause you don't get to do whatyou love and what you, are known
for, which is playing sport.
Arthur (17:31):
As you talked about injuries, what was the worst
injury that you ever had?
Jim (17:35):
Oh, Arthur, do you really want to know that?
Yeah, there's, there were a fewbroken legs.
I broke my sternum, which wasquite sore.
I got handed off by Tagicakibau,who played for London Irish.
I was playing for Leicester and,just hit mely, broke my sternum.
Had to sleep, sleep upright forabout eight weeks.
Like with the pillow, Icouldn't, lie, down straight.
(17:56):
It still gives me issues today.
got a finger in the eye by myown player.
Had to have my eyelidreconstructed, had 18 stitches
to do that.
but you wear'em as, as warwounds, as scars of, of stories
and each one tells that.
But, there's a beauty in that,not an injury, but that's part
and parcel of the game, andthat's why we play the game as
(18:18):
well, because it's tough and noteveryone can do it at the
highest level.
And there's a, kind of romancein that as well.
Arthur (18:24):
Do they make you look scary on the picture when you
have scars?
Jim (18:27):
Oh, they do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm quite lucky or unlucky.
I don't have cauliflower ears,but I've got a few scars.
You can't see the camera's toogood on here.
makes me look younger.
But yeah, so if it's, if you seesome pictures, I've got like
holes in my cheekbones and I'vegot scars and stuff like that,
and yeah, there's a part of methat likes it.
Arthur (18:46):
Who's the best player you've played with or against?
Jim (18:49):
There'd be a few mate.
played with some great players.
That Saracens team, the likes ofOwen Farrell, Owen Farrell, Maro
Itoje, the Vunipolas, BradBarritt, who was the centre, was
absolutely phenomenal.
He was a brilliant captain.
he'd be up there, but I thinkthe best player was a guy.
Again, I keep going back to yourdad'cause it could have been his
(19:10):
era, but James Simpson, Daniel,who I played for Gloucester,
where there was a winger.
And if you YouTube JamesSimpson, Daniel Arthur, or your
listeners do, he skinned thegreat Jonah Lomu whilst playing
for England.
So Jonah Lomu was playing forthe Barbarians and James
Simpson.
Daniel did this thing where hewent to throw the ball for a
switch, caught it midair, andthen skinned the great Jonah
(19:30):
Lomu.
And he had loads of injuries.
But my word, he was a, mercurialtalent.
He was absolutely world class.
So James Simpson Daniel wasprobably the best player I've
ever played with.
Arthur (19:40):
You, captained Gloucester, what would you say
makes a great captain?
Jim (19:45):
yeah, I loved Captaining Gloucester.
such great memories there.
a team like Leicester where theRugby's central to the city,
probably more so in Gloucesterbecause the football team isn't
like Leicester.
as a captain, it goes back tothe great teams of being honest.
(20:05):
I always.
Feel like a great captain issomeone that can deliver what
they say.
So I never went in there andsaid, oh, let's make sure that,
our discipline is, amazing.
Let's not make sure that, wedon't drop the ball or anything
like that.
I just wanted people to workincredibly hard and give
everything that they had to theteam, and I think that's what
(20:27):
makes a good, a great captain issomeone that says what they do.
Arthur (20:31):
You played for five different clubs.
How did you navigate being thenew person in an established
squad?
Jim (20:38):
it's fairly easy in a rugby team because there's a
brotherhood there.
it's they're your people, samekind of people, and you are
going in there to make the teambetter.
That's why you've been broughtin.
it takes a while, a few weeksto.
Earn the respect, but you dothat as soon as you get on the
(20:59):
pitch.
So you get on the pitch and youplay how you've been bought into
play.
And then it's very quickly tointegrate.
But all the teams are verysimilar.
you go into any team, it's agroup of men, that are all
silly, that are all smelly, and,they're out there to play one of
the most wonderful games on theplanet of rugby.
(21:21):
And, you are part of that.
Arthur (21:22):
What was your favourite team you've ever played?
Jim (21:24):
My favourite team would've been Leicester, the start of my
career.
they were so good mate.
They, we won Premierships, wewon Champions Cups.
We had players in there that wonthe World Cup with England.
We had icons of the game andjust the way that they went
about business, mate.
They were old school, they weregnarly.
(21:47):
You had to earn your stripes,pun intended.
You had to earn what it was toplay for Leicester and I really
liked that old school mentality.
And if it wasn't for Leicestermate, I wouldn't be where I am
now.
I dunno where I would be.
So they looked after me as ayoung man as well, so I can't
speak hardly enough for them.
Arthur (22:03):
What wisdom do you have now that you wished you had when
you started out in Your career.
Jim (22:08):
I'd say the value of role models on young men more so than
ever.
the value of having greatcoaches and great people around
Your life could be tough nownavigating through Arthur,
especially as, young men.
With all of these things, rugbygives you a real foundations of
(22:28):
life because if there's acontact element, there's a team
element.
there's winning, there's losing.
You get to travel the world.
So I think the, kind offoundations of that and the
wisdom that you learn from yourfellow players, but also the
coaches, the importance of acoach seeing something in you.
(22:49):
It doesn't need to be everycoach.
Not every coach will like you,but the value in a teacher.
A coach, a fitness coach, aphysio, and having that
relationship, for sure is, issomething that I value and
that's why I'm here.
Do you know what I mean?
I've got asked to come on here.
I think it's important that Ishare some of these things with
someone like you.
(23:10):
And if you take something fromme or if you take something from
flats or anyone that you haveon, that's wisdom.
And that is also sharing andbeing part of that group of men.
You get many of them peoplealong the way that help you in
your journey as growing into ayoung adult.
Arthur (23:31):
Who's the best coach you had and why?
Jim (23:33):
Dean Richards, again at Leicester.
So Dean Richards was a man ofthe people.
So he was an old school coach,but he treated you like a man.
some coaches will treat you asif like they're older and you
are younger and quiteheadmaster, they're the teacher
(23:54):
if you are the pupil.
Whereas Dean Richards leveledwith you and valued you as a,
man and, It is different.
You get different coaches, somelike you make, some don't.
And I went through my career,had some coaches that love me
and I had some coaches thatreally, dislike me and that's
part of life.
But I say that Dean Richards,and Dean Ryan as well, who
(24:17):
coached Scotland, for one sixNations in 2013, and we finished
the highest we've ever finished.
And I thought he was a greatcoach as well.
Arthur (24:25):
Thank you.
what was your favourite momentof your rugby career?
Jim (24:29):
My favourite moment was my 50th cap for Scotland.
not just to make 50 caps, but Ihad my son there, Jack James, JJ
with me, my first born child.
And, you start rugby withoutchildren and then as you grow
into a young man and you getmarried, you have children.
not everyone, some people, butwe did.
(24:50):
And to get to run out atMurrayfield playing for
Scotland, which I absolutelyadored an evening game against
Australia.
singing the anthem holding myson was something that I'll
never forget and that's whatstands out.
But there were many, mate, I wonthe Champions Cup.
There were some big moments, butthe one that stands out is
definitely doing that with, myson, playing for the country
(25:10):
that I love.
Arthur (25:11):
What do you miss most about playing rugby?
Jim (25:14):
My mates.
Yeah, I think it's, you'll knowbeing at school, being in the
team that you are in.
Nothing better than being outthere with your mates, right?
Winning, losing, learning.
The ups, the downs, the feelingof being together.
you'll never replicate thatagain.
What?
And that's why a lot of playersmy age, when they retire, they,
(25:37):
go back out there and they doit, and they play these games
and these charity games andthey're all old and their bones
are all broken.
But mate, I miss the boys, Imiss my friends.
yeah, I miss the men.
That would be the number onething.
Arthur (25:50):
Do you talk to a lot of them still today?
Jim (25:54):
Not as much as I should.
Not as much as we should.
I try to, I, reach out to them,but everyone's busy.
They've got children they've gotfamilies.
We're in this midlife.
Again, I keep referencing yourdad.
Your dad will know you're inthis middle period of hustling
and working out what's next.
But yeah, you should, we shouldchat more.
And Arthur, after this, maybe Iwill, I'll start reaching out to
(26:16):
a few of the other ones.
Arthur (26:17):
How did you go from a rugby player to a podcast
presenter?
Jim (26:21):
I dunno, mate, I dunno how it happened.
you know what?
I, it happened organically.
It happened naturally.
I wanted to do a podcast onrugby.
I listened to podcasts beforepodcasts were even podcasts,
mate.
so I used to travel, listen tocrime podcasts.
listened to Joe Rogan, whoobviously has got the biggest
podcast in the world.
So I listened to when he wasdoing a UFC podcast and thought,
(26:44):
oh, you know what?
There's some great characters inthis game, some brilliant people
that no one knows about.
People just think, we're justidiots going around playing a
sport that no one understands,and there's so many cool people
and cool stories.
So we started 10 years ago andwe never knew what it would turn
into, and it's turned into thisand inspiring people like you to
(27:05):
do your own show.
and other people as well.
So yeah, it happened naturally,mate.
And that's been the real beautyin what we've done.
Arthur (27:14):
Thank you.
Jim (27:16):
You were two when we started.
You were two years old.
Sorry.
just, put it out there.
I know you're a youngster.
I know you were listening backthen
Arthur (27:25):
What did you enjoy, about most about doing your
podcasts?
Jim (27:30):
just chatting about rugby.
Just chatting, doing it withmates, naturally.
and chatting about the game thatgave me so much and not thinking
too much about it.
I don't think too much about it.
We turn up every week.
it's a joy.
and I love the fact that we makea lot of people happy.
(27:52):
it was never meant to be athing, sometimes when you stop
and think I have to now,'causeyou've asked me the question,
it's just really cool.
It's, a cool thing to do.
It's free.
People can listen to podcastsfor free.
People will listen to this forfree, and you get to meet some
brilliant people along the way,which I have done with my own
podcast and with the rugby onethat I've done.
(28:13):
and you all know that when yougo on your journey, do you know
what I mean?
The fact that we can do this andthen you'll publish it, and for
the world to listen to, and theworld to see for free.
It's a, really cool concept.
Arthur (28:24):
Who would you say is your favourite player you've had
on your podcast?
Jim (28:30):
oh.
Who's my favourite player?
We've had on the rugby pod.
We've had many, so we've hadloads and loads, so I could, I
could pick any from that.
I think for me personally, I gotto interview Pieter steph du
toit in Japan last year, so Iwent to a lovely place called
Nagoya, where he's playing.
And it was off the back of theWorld Cup where South Africa won
(28:51):
the World Cup.
And he put in arguably one ofthe greatest performances, that
we've ever seen in the World Cupfinal.
I think he made like 27 tackles,let's call it 30 tackles.
And I went to Nagoya, I went toJapan to interview a lot of
players.
Ardie Savea Eddie Jones, Damiande Allende Ande, Brodie
Retallick.
And I couldn't wait to meetpieter steph du toit.
(29:13):
Not that he's a hero of mine,but he's an icon of the game.
He's an incredible athlete.
And it was one of them wheredon't meet your heroes.
And because they don't live upto what you'd want them to be or
what they are, he was everythingyou'd hoped he'd be just a
brilliant, warm human being anda fantastic player.
So he's the one that kind ofsticks out for me, his pieter
(29:34):
steph du toit.
Arthur (29:36):
Thank you.
And if it's okay, could I do aquick fire round?
Jim (29:40):
Oh, of course you can do whatever you want, mate.
It's your show
Arthur (29:43):
So what was your favourite match?
Jim (29:45):
favourite match would have been against Ireland in Croke
Park in 2010.
They were on for a grand slamand we beat'em, and I played and
got man of the match.
I might not have got man of thematch, but just for this, we say
I did
Arthur (29:58):
And what's your favourite trophy?
Jim (30:01):
My favourite trophy was winning.
The A-League for Leicester withall my mates and Matt Hampson.
Matt Hampson is in a wheelchairnow.
He's a, quadriplegic for doingamazing things with the Matt
Hampson Foundation.
Matt Hampson was playing, Imentioned Harry was playing.
So all them guys I mentioned atthe start of the show, we won
(30:22):
the A-League for Leicester.
I still remember like it wasyesterday.
It was brilliant.
Arthur (30:26):
And who was your, who was, what was your favourite try
you've ever scored?
Jim (30:31):
No, I didn't score many.
I did not score many, but I'mgonna say there was a hat trick
against India back in the day.
I scored three tries againstIndia, which was iconic.
So I'd say then, but also my onetry for Scotland away in
Argentina.
we won the series down there.
yeah, so my one try for Scotlandwas probably my favourite try.
Arthur (30:51):
And what was your favourite meal before a game?
Jim (30:54):
favourite meal porridge, pasta, chicken.
Lots of carbs, mate.
You shouldn't eat too many carbswhen you get old, you're fine to
eat them now, but I would say Iused to love porridge and honey
and peanut butter.
Just, yeah, something that couldfill you up.
Used to love that.
Arthur (31:10):
Thank you.
And last question, who of yourrugby mates would you recommend
to be on my podcast?
Jim (31:17):
Who else have you had on?
Who's been your favourite sofar?
Arthur (31:20):
All of them really.
They've all been so good andbrilliant.
Jim (31:23):
Tell me who you want.
Who do you want?
Who would be your dream guest?
It doesn't matter what I think.
Yeah.
Arthur (31:30):
probably Siya Kolisi or I'd quite Maro Itoje.
Jim (31:37):
There you go.
I'm sure we can make it happen,mate, because this podcast is
going somewhere.
So it's, I've had Siya Kolisi onthe show before.
He's a brilliant, human being.
He's a guy that has, It iscalled transcended the Game,
like you talk about icons ofsport.
He's an icon of South Africa andhe's just a brilliant, human
(31:58):
being.
So I'm sure at some point you'llget Siya Kolisi
Arthur (32:02):
And I just wanna say thanks so much for taking your
time to our podcast.
I really appreciate it
Jim (32:07):
anytime.
It's an honour for me to be onArthur.
Thank you.
Arthur (32:11):
and I love watching your podcast.
They're brilliant on, onSpotify, TikTok, and Instagram.
Jim (32:16):
Thanks mate.
That's, I, appreciate the plugthere.
The more listeners, the better.
Thank you.
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