October 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Richard Hill – World Cup winner, England legend, and the ultimate back row warrior. In this episode of Rugby Legends, Richard opens up about his journey from multi-sport beginnings to becoming one of the most respected flankers in rugby history.
He shares the secret ingredients that shaped his success – from the friendships forged in the game, to the toughest coaches that pushed him further than he thought possible. Richard reveals what it really takes to master the flanker position, overcome devastating injuries, and keep performing at the very top level.
We hear about the matches that defined him, the teammates who inspired him, and the mantras that carried him through the hardest moments of his career. With honesty and wisdom, he reflects on what he misses most about rugby, how the game has evolved, and why resilience and adaptability matter as much as raw talent.
If you want to understand the mindset of a true England great – and what it takes to bounce back stronger every time life knocks you down – this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arthur (00:05):
Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends
podcast.
In each episode, I interview anamazing rugby player or coach to
get their insight and advice foryoung rugby players just like
me, who are keen to learn andget better.
In this episode, I'm reallyexcited to be speaking with
Richard Hill, England World Cupwinner and three times Lions
(00:26):
tourist.
Richard is definitely a legendof the game.
He's widely regarded as one ofEngland's best players of all
time, as well as one of thegreat back row players of the
modern game.
Richard played his club rugby atSaracens making 275 appearances
over a 15 year period.
He was capped 71 times byEngland and played in five tests
(00:50):
for the British Irish Lions.
I hope you find Richard'sknowledge and wisdom has helpful
as I did, enjoy.
Firstly, thank you so muchRichard, for being on my
podcast.
I really appreciate taking yourtime.
Richard (01:06):
That's great, Arthur.
I'm looking forward to joiningyou.
Arthur (01:09):
So firstly, Richard, you are a phenomenal rugby player
and was spotted by England froma very young age, but did you
play any other sports growingup?
Richard (01:19):
I did, and I think it's an important part of development
as a young player, and it wascertainly an important part with
myself.
I went to a tiny little, primaryschool, so I think there were 64
children in the whole school,but there were only four in my
year group.
so I got to play for schoolteams from quite a young age, so
(01:43):
it didn't matter whether it wasfootball, rounders, I, tended to
make the team from about sevenyears up to, up to finishing
school.
So that, that was great'cause itwas good exposure.
playing against peoplele thatwere bigger, or schools that had
more players than us.
clearly we tried to pitch itthat we played against smaller
(02:04):
schools like ourselves, so itwas more of an even match.
But, I'd play football, on aSaturday morning, literally just
within my little village.
I'd play rugby on a Sunday, butthen when I went to secondary
school.
much bigger school.
It opened me up to a lot moresport.
obviously within PE, we'd playbasketball, we'd play cricket,
(02:28):
we'd do athletics.
rugby was, the main sport.
so that was good for me.
but then if we played football,I'd be the bloke who was wearing
oversized metal studs againstpeople who didn't like it.
So I got a bit of a reputationearly on for the player that
they didn't like to playagainst.
Arthur (02:47):
and what was your favorite sport except from rugby
then?
Richard (02:50):
so rugby clearly was my main winter sport.
but football is so much easierto play, particularly during
break time, lunchtime.
So I would always take part inthat.
And then summer sport would'vebeen more cricket.
but I very much did thatsocially.
with friends, and then wouldoccasionally turn out for some
(03:11):
local village teams if they wereshort on a Saturday, I, didn't
commit to every weekend.
If I did that, then I'd neverhave a Saturday to, to myself at
all.
Arthur (03:21):
Where you a batsman or bowler in cricket?
Richard (03:23):
I'd prefer to bowl
Arthur (03:25):
seam or spin?
Richard (03:27):
Seam.
It wouldn't be fast, not with mysize, but particularly if you
went down and played on some ofthe grounds in the new forest
with some of the conditions downthere, you've got a lot of
swing.
Arthur (03:38):
You represented England at every age group level.
What made you successful whenyou were still a teenager?
Richard (03:45):
well, I was fortunate that.
I went and played rugby when Iwas five years old at my junior
rugby club, Salisbury.
So I was lucky in that we had agood group of friends, who all
played, all enjoyed, all reallycompetitive.
So we did push each other, eventhough we weren't pushing each
other in terms of win or lose.
It was just, who can carry thebest, who can tackle with the
best?
(04:07):
but we also had some coaches whomade it very enjoyable, which I
think is great in terms of,retaining players.
so we were a group of playersthat have stayed together.
I'm still good friends withplayers that I played with when
I'm five and six years old.
and then I went to a secondaryschool that concentrated on
rugby.
so we played on Saturdays beforeChristmas.
(04:29):
we had some good coaches, a guywho led the program who was ex
Marine.
So he very much believed inbeing fit as well as having good
skills.
so he taught us, some, goodbasics to have and I think that
aided game understanding.
and because we were in a goodrugby playing program, we got to
play against, some of the localprivate schools, some private
(04:52):
schools that were further away.
We were able to expand thequality of teams we were playing
against, and that, that helped,massively.
And then I just found myselfreally joining what was.
The old system of, trying toplay for England, you, started
in on a very convoluted program,of playing against a team to
(05:15):
make a new team to play againsttwo other teams that have come
together, and it just snowballedlike that.
So I probably got encouraged bya friend who was one years older
who played for England.
U16's and U18's.
And he said that he thought Ihad more than enough quality to
get into the team the yearafter.
So I suppose that's a, that wasa boost.
(05:37):
and something that I took onboard.
But like any young player comingthrough, I had some of the
normal discussions around, I wasdeemed under sixteens too small.
to, to have forced my way intothe starting team, which meant
whilst I sat on the bench forEngland under sixteens, I never
got on the pitch.
(05:57):
So there are all these momentsin your career where you look at
it and go, it's setbacks thatpushed you.
And there were other times whereyour desire to improve a skill
got you better, but, you justhad to pick and choose each
time, what, was the mostimportant part for you?
Arthur (06:14):
And as you talked about friends, do you still talk to
any of them today?
Richard (06:19):
Yeah.
I'd just been down to Australiato watch the Lions, so I
would've caught up with one ofmy friends, who was, I'd have
been like five or six years oldwhen we first played together.
another friend would've been.
Who now lives in Australia wasmy first team captain at school.
(06:39):
I met up with the Salisburyfirst 15 adult captain, who was
my captain when I debuted as a16-year-old.
there were other members of myold junior rugby club out there.
And then of course there werelots of people connected with,
playing rugby as a professionalwith Saracens, or whether it's
England or Lions.
Arthur (07:00):
What's your favourite game at the Lions?
Richard (07:02):
on the one just gone.
I only got to watch the secondand third test live.
I thought they played incrediblywell in the first test.
a very dominant, and I thoughtit was gonna be an ominous,
result and performance forAustralia.
But, I enjoyed the fight back ofthe Lions'cause I in the second
(07:22):
test,'cause I thought that gamewas going away from'em and they
stayed in it and their abilityto, every time getting the 22
and score became ultimately.
Very important.
And, scoring in the last play ofthe game was very dramatic.
And, I suppose the lions crowdin the stadium were euphoric.
Arthur (07:41):
Were you always going to be a flanker?
What other positions did youplay growing up?
Richard (07:46):
So because, minis would've been nine aside, that,
that.
That meant I could play prettymuch anywhere in the forwards,
but when I was probably fromabout 10 years onwards, if the
under thirteens needed extraplayers, I tended to be one of
those who played up.
So I played two years up forunder thirteens and then one
(08:09):
year up.
But there was almost like thisunwritten agreement that if
there was someone who played inthe back row or they had a whole
back row who were underthirteens, then they played in
the back row.
'cause it's their team.
I, so there, therefore, I wouldjust play in whatever positions
they were short.
So I might have a run out awing.
I remember one day playing downin, near Bristol in Keynsham it
(08:34):
was, and the river was flooded.
So I was playing fullback inabout two inches of water, which
meant I didn't really see muchof the ball in that game.
But again, I might get loanedout to other play, other teams
just so they had 15 players.
I remember having a.
one game at fly-half.
but I think nine is probably theone position I never really got
(08:56):
trusted with too big.
Couldn't bend over, couldn'tbend over quick enough.
but no, I, loved it.
And certainly in terms of like,if you were to say
representative rugby, I wasalways, my younger years, I was
always a, number eight.
it wasn't until I joinedSaracens and then there was this
period where it was likeeveryone had to be massive, so I
(09:21):
was deemed too small to playnumber eight, but then clearly
the game, changed a bit, becamea bit more dynamic, a bit
faster, and therefore playinganywhere in the back row became
a possibility.
but as we're seeing withversatility with, Ben Earl for
England playing in the center,if we had a yellow card, then I
(09:41):
might be asked to go out in thebacks to defend.
Either as a first option off theline out, or go out on the
blindside wing or even just stepin at the centers.
it's good to have that abilityto, play in other positions,
just to give yourself a bebetter chance of selection.
Arthur (10:00):
Talking about positions, what position on the rugby pitch
did you rely the most?
Richard (10:06):
I think we all rely a lot on the props.
they, do a lot of the unseenwork.
they play in a position I'm notsure I really want to play, but,
the scrums important.
They, their role in lifting andI think, you could say it's the
whole way across the front rowbecause if you've got a hooker
(10:27):
who's not hitting his target inthe line out, then you don't
have any first phase possession.
No first phase possession meansthe backs are doing nothing bar
defending.
So unless they like defending,and then it's not much use to
them.
I think they probably prefer tohave the ball in their own
hands.
Arthur (10:42):
That's exactly what David Flatman says,'cause quite
a lot of people say fly-half orscrum-half.
But he said props.
Richard (10:48):
Well, he would say prop, wouldn't he?
Arthur (10:50):
What's the, what was the facet of rugby, which was your
particular strength growing up?
Richard (10:56):
as I say, I think I got involved with some good coaches
when I was younger, and I, thinkwhat they were able to do was
instill a very good game.
Understanding, reading the game,reading the bounce of a ball,
trying to anticipate where youthink opposition are, gonna
attack.
understanding where we might bea little bit short in defence
or, if, you were to appear onthe outside shoulder of the
(11:20):
fly-half there's space outside,so therefore there's a line
break opportunity.
yeah, the reacting.
Reacting to how the gameunfolds, I think was a good
strength of mine.
Arthur (11:30):
That's very interesting.
Thank you.
What did you enjoy most aboutplaying flanker?
Richard (11:37):
that you are always in the game.
flankers are always quite closeto the game set piece.
Clearly you have your role todo, whether that's to, push
incredibly hard or in the lineout you are potentially lifting
or jumping or, offering a dummy.
but then once the ball goes out,you, tend to be tracking the
ball.
You wanna be somewhere near it.
(11:58):
if you're an open side flankerthat you, there's normal
expectation on first phase thatyou are gonna be securing it or
linking and passing.
so it is, I think it's that allround enjoyment of being near
the ball and playing with theball, or you have to enjoy
defending as well.
So.
Chasing people down, trying toknock'em over, get the ball
(12:21):
back.
it's, all, going on all thetime.
Arthur (12:24):
How difficult was it be to be?
How difficult was it to switchbetween open side and blind
side?
Richard (12:32):
I found it quite comfortable.
I, think that probably helpedby, I would be rotating between
the two quite regularly, whetherit was England and, club would
play me Majoratively open side.
but I did play a.
Across all three back rowpositions.
England again was probablypredominantly blindside, but
(12:54):
then I started as an open side,trained a lot, to make sure that
if we picked up injuries orthere were certain substitutions
that were made that we werecovering off, peop that we made
sure that we were allcomfortable with the calls and
that it didn't affect the teamif we made any changes or
changes were enforced upon us.
(13:16):
Yeah, so I was quite comfortablewith going between the two.
Truth be known, I probablypreferred to play open side,
but, just want to be selected,want be in the team and want to
be having the, biggest impact onteam performing when I'm
winning.
Arthur (13:32):
What did you like so much about Openside?
Richard (13:35):
it was more the, just being closer to the ball.
Yeah, probably a little bit moreball movement, as in passing,
you get your hands on the ball,you you're able to make more
line breaks.
Whereas a, blindside, it mightbe that it's you've gotta have a
bit more physical presence to begetting through, the two man
(13:56):
tackles that you're facing.
Arthur (13:58):
Who was the most influential teammate in your
career, and what did you learnfrom them?
Richard (14:03):
So many players.
hard to put it down to oneindividual.
if, even if I was just to keepit at an England level, you got
Martin Johnson who is a colossalleader, just a man who you
respected because.
Whatever he was asking you todo, you knew he was prepared to
(14:26):
do it himself.
you had Jonny Wilkinson whounbelievably diligent in terms
of his skill development, hisown.
practise around kicking, goalkicking, there's no wonder he
was so good and so measured andmade such great decisions'cause
he practised it so much.
(14:48):
I'd love to say Jason Robinson,his running ability, but I was
never gonna be able to copythat.
So there was not, much point.
But, yeah, so many great playersout there.
And even, club level.
There's a guy called TonyDiprose who I played with.
International age grade.
Yeah.
when I joined Saracens, he was avery, he was already an
established first team player ata young age, who had great
(15:12):
skills.
so yeah, you're always trying tosee how much, you can pick up
off other people.
you gotta be honest withyourself.
You got to, as I say with Jason,you've gotta understand whether
you can, you are capable ofbeing able to replicate the
skills, whether you've got the,physical capability or, the
skillset to do it.
(15:33):
Otherwise you can get yourselfinto a bit of a mess on a rugby
pitch by trying to copy a skilland getting it completely wrong.
Arthur (15:39):
Who's been your most challenging coach and why?
Richard (15:42):
the, first ever school head of school, he was a very
uncompromising man, get on wellwith him.
took him out a couple of yearsago for his 80th birthday.
But yeah, Steve Ralph-Bowman,phenomenal in terms of, yeah,
what he instilled in me with,some of the basic skills of
(16:06):
drawing, running towards aplayer with a ball in hand,
drawing the opposition, puttingsomeone else away.
He set up our teams brilliantly.
As I said, he was an ex-Marine,so therefore he physically
pushed us.
there was the mindset side ofit, which he was used to around
his military background.
if, no one turned up, if noteacher turned up for rugby
(16:27):
training, still happened.
We didn't know whether it wasdeliberate or not, but you knew
if you didn't organise yourselfwell enough, you didn't do the
fitness session or a fitnesssession that we thought we were
meant to do, or the rugbytraining that would help us for
the game of the weekend.
We would get told off.
so there was him, I think from amore technical point of view, I
joined Saracens and there wasthis guy called Mark Evans who
(16:48):
helped transition me from anumber eight to a.
To a, open side flanker, whichprobably needed a little bit of
technical tweaking.
And then there's no doubt inthat when we got to.
England, the likes of AndyRobinson, who I worked with for
quite a long time, who helpedmentor me a couple of years
before I, I became an Englandfirst team, regular.
(17:11):
he, would be tough anduncompromising with some of the
more physical skill developmentthat was needed around
breakdown, clearing breakdowns,or whether it's lines of run,
trying to anticipate where thegame is gonna be played.
Arthur (17:24):
What's one piece of advice you'd give to a youngster
who wants to be a successfulflanker?
Richard (17:29):
I always believe that you've got to enjoy it.
if you're not enjoying it's atough world to be in.
it's a physically demanding andquite often for young players
coming through, it's the sportyou played.
As your recreation, your weekendenjoyment.
(17:49):
Now, if you're not enjoying itand it's your job, it becomes a
really hard thing to do.
so you've definitely gotta keepthat, there's no doubt.
And in the higher, if you wantto play up at higher levels,
then you've got to be placinghard work.
Yeah, you gotta work hard to getthere.
(18:10):
you gotta be real.
you gotta understand what you'regood at and, play to those
strengths.
but there are certain elementsof the game, which if you want
to be an international rugbyplayer, it doesn't matter what
your position, you still have toproficient at it.
Everyone has to tackle.
there's no hiding away fromtackling.
(18:31):
You can probably hide away fromball carry.
but ideally we want 15 playerswho can carry the ball.
Arthur (18:38):
Exactly how did you keep positive and bounce back from
the injuries that interruptedyour career?
Richard (18:45):
Injuries is definitely the toughest part of it, or I
found the toughest part of it.
There's the one, two weekinjuries, which I think you can
just about live with, but thatmoment that someone tells you're
gonna be out the game for atleast six months is, tough.
the first time I tore my ACL,I'm fortunate in that, although
(19:09):
there were a couple of momentswhere, we needed a bit of a
reset and some interventionsthat needed to happen.
It relatively went to plan, butunfortunately the second time,
wasn't, and I was out of thegame for 16 months, and then
when you got people suggestingthat maybe you should retire and
I wasn't ready to retire, thatbecomes tough because, in order
(19:33):
to prove them wrong, you've gotto hit some really high physical
standards as well as being ableto, to move and run properly.
And I found that I had to adaptmyself, my running, my rugby, in
order to be able to have thelast year and a half that I did
(19:53):
in rugby, which some peoplewould say wasn't possible, but
one man's not possible isanother man's challenge.
Arthur (20:02):
That's a good quote.
Richard (20:04):
I dunno where that came from.
Someone.
It must, I must have read itsomewhere.
Arthur (20:10):
what would you say was your worst injury?
Richard (20:14):
the worst one was by far a torn ACL, anterior
cruciate ligament for the secondtime.
that was tough because there wasa lot that had to be fixed, and
it definitely didn't go to plan.
and at one point I was advisedto go and see a second
specialist and his advice was,you need to retire now.
(20:36):
I came out, had a very emotionalcall with my own surgeon, and
said that I want, one more, onemore crack at it.
And I'm so glad I did.
Yeah.
it might have taken a long, timeto come back and play, but I'm
glad I did.
Arthur (20:53):
are there any mantras that you live by?
Richard (20:55):
the harder, the hard, the harder you work, the more
you'll get out of it.
Arthur (20:59):
What does that mean to you?
Richard (21:01):
so I always felt that fitness was an important part of
my position and what allowed meto play to my super strengths.
my super, strengths would'vebeen my work rate around the
pitch.
the number of tackles I was ableto make, the amount of times I
was able to.
(21:21):
Actively get on the ball as anattacking option or to secure
possession.
So I knew that I needed to be asfit as I could be.
and that meant putting in somepretty horrible fitness
sessions.
and you can't always, you can'talways have people around to
watch you, or to help youthrough it.
Sometimes you've gotta go outthere on your own.
(21:44):
and sometimes it's too easy foryour concentration to.
To dip a little bit, and youmight do one, one sprint of a
pitch that was 96% of what itshould have been, 98%.
But each time you're not hittinga hundred percent of what it
would be.
You are letting yourself down oryou're not gonna achieve what
you were hoping to.
(22:04):
and that, that's the challenge.
very lucky that, one, one of mybest mates who we ended up
living 20 meters apart, KevSorrell,, he became a big part
of my training.
and likewise I did for him.
And, there are some days when itmight be optional whether you
want to go out and do something,but if I was, let's say going,
(22:27):
oh, I'm not sure I've got theenergy, or, yeah, let's see that
what happens.
He might say, well, I'm doingit, and vice versa.
So invariably the psychology ofmissing out.
fear, the fear of missing out.
FOMO becomes, came a big thing.
if.
Christmas day was a day thatneeded to be a training day.
whether it was, with the team,more likely without the team, I
(22:50):
would just pop up to my localrugby pitch, whether it was in
London or back home inSalisbury, if I was with my
parents and, just get on and doit.
there's no point missing out onopportunities that are gonna be
there.
Arthur (23:04):
Wow.
Thank you.
How did you handle your nervesfor a big game.
Richard (23:09):
this is one of the bits that I wish wasn't part of the
sport, but they are, and theywere an important part of me.
I got nervous before games.
I'm not, saying, outta control.
'cause clearly I was able toplay at a level I did, but.
I suppose the best instance Ican give you before the World
(23:31):
Cup final, I'm in the changingroom for an hour, and a half
before the game, and maybe,yeah, probably even 30 minutes
before the game because wehaven't started the warmup and
I'm there thinking to myself,I'm so nervous.
Why do I put myself throughthis?
But why?
And then I'm thinking, this is aWorld Cup final and you are
questioning whether you shouldbe sat in this room.
(23:53):
In this changing with thesegreat players and with such a
great thing that's about tohappen.
clearly we don't know whetherthey're gonna win or not, but
this is one of the greatestopportunities you'll have in
life.
And you are questioning, do Iwanna step foot out there?
it wasn't dis debilitating.
I knew I was gonna be going outthere and I knew the moment that
(24:14):
I stepped foot on the pitch tostart the warmup, these nerves
were gonna start dissipating.
They were gonna start goingaway.
And once kickoff happened,they're gone because we're back
into instinctive side of things.
You're into the competition ofwanting to chase down george
Gregan, you want to try andtackle, whoever it might be.
(24:38):
you've got all these activitiesthat are going on to distract
you, and you just become a rugbyplayer.
You almost like start, blockingout some of the noise that's
going on in the crowd.
it just becomes a backgroundnoise.
but as I say, it's, reallyimportant.
The, very next week, the weekafter we played in the World Cup
(24:59):
final, I arrived back in Englandon something like the Tuesday or
the Wednesday.
I popped into Saracens on theway home, and I spoke to our
head coach Francois Pinaar, andhe said, you two days off, but I
need you to play at the weekendagainst Rotheram because it's
11th versus 12th in the league,and we are the bottom two teams.
(25:24):
so I need you to train on, on, Ithink it was Friday.
I was like, right.
Okay.
So yeah, that's fine.I'll have acouple of days now and then I'll
come in on Friday.
I'll learn
the line out calls, but the rest
of it I'm playing.
I off the cuff.
I'm gonna play as just a naturalrugby player who just, I'm gonna
play what I see.
He went, yeah, fine.
(25:45):
I was nervous before playingRotheram and.
Not as nervous as the weekbefore in the World Cup Final,
I'm nowhere near as nervous, butI was nervous.
But to me, it was an importantpart of knowing that I was ready
for a game.
I accepted the challenge of thisis competition.
this is, we, we wanna win, wewanna perform well.
so it's part of it.
(26:07):
So I, I, I learned to accept,but didn't mean I enjoyed, but I
also knew that if I didn't havethose nerves.
I probably wasn't caring aboutthe game.
Arthur (26:18):
That's really interesting.
Richard (26:20):
Do you get nervous?
Arthur (26:21):
I get quite nervous for a game, but then as what I
learned from Dan Bigger, hesaid.
People have used up that wholeSaturday to come and watch you,
so you shouldn't get nervous.
Richard (26:31):
Very good.
There you go.
Learning all the time.
Arthur (26:35):
Exactly.
When playing for England or theLions how did you handle
competing for your position?
Richard (26:41):
competition was always high.
you play a professional club,and you know that you've got
perform well.
that you know that when you joina club, you've gotta try and
perform better than someone elsebecause you want their position.
you know that you've been boughtin on the hope that's what
you're capable of doing.
(27:02):
So it, there, there is a realismon it.
but you've gotta, you've gottafight hard, work hard.
I don't, you can't not haveempathy for someone who's,
you've taken their place.
but ultimately, if you've, takenyears to force your way into an
England team.
You don't wanna be giving it upeasily.
(27:22):
so whilst I was fortunate enoughto play in a back row with
Lawrence Dallaglio and NeilBack, we, knew that the moment
it was felt that one of us orone of us wasn't performing
well, or if we weren'tcollectively performing as a
team.
There was a whole line of backrow forwards who wanted our
(27:43):
position.
so if you look Lewis Moody,Martin Corry, Joe Worsley,
they're all guys who went on toget 70, 80 caps.
But the majority of it would'vebeen when the, myself, Lawrence,
or back had well, one or morehad removed along or injured.
but if we hadn't have beenperforming well, they would've
(28:05):
been a hundred cappers.
so that's the quality of playerthat you had to keep out of the
team.
so if you move it up again toanother level, you then you go
to Lions, well, you're competingagainst all your in England
colleagues, but you're alsoplaying against the best in, the
other countries.
So I, do remember before the2001.
(28:26):
Tour, being given a heads upthat it's gonna be really tight
on whether you get into the testteam.
the one thing we haven't got isline out jumpers in the back
row.
So, fortunately there was amonth before the tour left where
I was able to utilise the skillsof Dave Flatman, George Schuter
Danny Grewcock, Julian White,who were all playing at Saracens
(28:49):
at the time to learn how tojump.
It was very.
Ugly process to start with.
they used to call me the flyinghelicopter'cause they used to
flap me arms as I went up.
but ultimately in that month Ilearned a new skill.
and I think that's probably theimportant part of Do you accept
competition or not?
The moment you stand still as aprofessional rugby player or
(29:12):
any, player of any, competition.
if you're not prepared to moveyour game on, like likelihood is
someone's catching you up frombehind.
So you always need to bereinventing yourself or continue
to improve the, strengths ofyour game, as well as working on
what the perceived weaknessesare.
Arthur (29:31):
Speaking about not performing well, how did you
bounce back after a bad game?
Richard (29:36):
good question.
sometimes, well, there's achallenge there to try and put
it out your mind.
sometimes, if you've had a badgame and it's because you've
made mistakes.
Are they uncharacteristicmistakes?
are they the sort of things youjust have to say, I dunno what
happened today.
you still carry on practicingthe skill.
(29:59):
but there's almost like anunderstanding of I don't think
that's gonna happen again.
there are other things where youjust go, well, look, the
opposition recognised that theybelieve.
There's a weakness in my game,at which point you don't want
anyone else to be following thattrend.
So you've gotta work on it andwork hard on it.
I would've always seen myself asa young player who made a lot of
(30:20):
tackles.
but as I started moving up, thequality of rugby, you realise
the physical nature of thetackles has to be that much
better.
'cause the players that you'replaying against now wanna run
through you.
so just.
grabbing around the ankles andhoping that they fall over is
not enough.
So that, would've been one areaof my, play that I had to,
(30:43):
improve.
Arthur (30:43):
Thank you.
What's the biggest Life lessonrugby has taught you that you
still use today?
Richard (30:49):
you get a lot of advice.
there's a lot of advice you getfrom varying different people.
I think you've gotta, you'vegotta recognise the people you
trust, the people who understandyou the best.
you've gotta recognise thatthere's some people who won't be
either of those, but they mightbe off to offer good advice.
But you've gotta understand andfilter it to whether you believe
(31:11):
it's useful for you.
I used the example of JasonRobinson in Rugby a man who had
unbelievable footwork, theability to accelerate over 10
meters.
I might be able to increase myspeed marginally over 10 meters,
but I was never gonna have hisagility and footwork.
So there's no point.
(31:32):
I, you can do bits and pieces,but I was never gonna get to
that.
But there are other players thatyou can copy and likewise, in
life, you have a level ofintelligence, you have a level
of empathy, you have a level of,just understanding that people,
and you've gotta work out whereyour skillset lies, how you can
(31:54):
support people or how they cansupport you.
but you, what you can't do isspend a lot of time.
Listening and trying toimplement things that are never
gonna be you.
They don't fit in with yourvalues of life.
Arthur (32:04):
What do you miss most about playing rugby?
Richard (32:07):
I miss the camaraderie of coming off the pitch, having
won a game.
Yeah.
That, that feeling in thechanging room of a, job well
done.
A satisfaction of the work thatyou've put in during the week.
has come to fruition.
You're tat you've tacticallynailed it.
(32:29):
and, then, going out andpossibly celebrating together.
one of the greatest feelingsthat we'd have had after the
World Cup final would've beenthe changing room afterwards.
there was almost like arealisation that once we left
the changing room, life wasn'tgonna be the same.
That group, were never gonnaplay again together.
(32:49):
They were never gonna have thechanging room experience ever
again.
We were never gonna play a gameof rugby again.
there were players that we knewwere gonna retire.
They hadn't said anything, butwe knew we were never going out
as a team again.
So we had to savour it while wecould.
Arthur (33:04):
Do you think rugby has changed for the better since
your playing days?
Richard (33:09):
I dunno, I think there's been a lot of, effort
put into making sure that ourgame is as safe as it can be.
clearly it's, a physical sportand, but when you look at some
of the, protocols, some of theinitiatives that have come in,
to make sure that, we look afterplayers on the pitch, we, we've
(33:30):
got protocols in place to, tomake sure that.
Players are looked after in, indays following injuries.
the medical provision isunbelievable now.
The opportunity to seespecialists, the greater
understanding.
there's been a lot, of, therewasn't a lot known when, rugby
was amateur and the early daysof professionalism.
(33:52):
So, we're, approaching nearly 30years on now, so there's a lot
of research there that can beused for the betterment of the
modern day player.
Arthur (34:00):
Can you tell us about your role as manager for the
England team?
What does it entail about andwhat do you enjoy about it?
Richard (34:08):
yes.
So, job title is England TeamManager.
we have, an unbelievable, teamoperations who work in terms of
getting all the organisationright.
My, my role sits, particularlyaround relationship between club
and country.
we have a, professional gamepartnership, which outlines, the
(34:30):
expectations for all the partiesinvolved, whether it's the,
yeah, the England rugby team,the RFU.
The clubs, and subsequent bodieswithin it with the players, and
we've just gotta make sure thatwe stick with it.
It's my role to, to make sure ona day-to-day basis, when the
players are in camp, that we arefulfilling our commitment to the
(34:50):
players and the clubs, makingsure, communicating well with
them so they understand who's inand out.
and I have a role aroundmentoring with some of the back
rowers.
Some of the back rowers werepart of what, when I was Academy
Ma working within the academy atSaracens, there were players
that were coming through theacademy.
Then I subsequently took on amentoring role.
(35:12):
the England rugby and some ofthe players were still at school
then, but they're all nowplaying for England.
And some of them are establishedBritish and Irish lions players
and some of them, well one ofthem is lucky enough to be a
captain, so of the lions.
So, yeah, those are all playersthat you like to think you've
had a small part in helping todevelop, understand, grow them
in a way that they want to begrown.
(35:34):
And yeah, that's one of the mostimportant parts I think for me,
is trying to help those players.
and help the team.
ultimately we're all there tohelp the team, to into great
performances and win rugbymatches.
Arthur (35:48):
Yeah, it's a team game.
What are you most proud of inyour rugby career?
Richard (35:52):
That's a tough one.
do you have brothers andsisters?
Arthur (35:56):
I have one brother, older
Richard (35:57):
Yeah.
Ask mum and dad, who's theirfavorite child.
that's, there, there are so manygreat things that have happened,
within my playing career, onthe, team side of it to play in
a, Winning Lion series in, SouthAfrica in 1997.
(36:17):
we went down there and there wasno expectation for us to win
that series.
In fact, a lot of people withinSouth Africa didn't believe we
were gonna win the games againstthe provincial teams.
So that was a unbelievablemoment.
But then you had, a longerprocess, which was getting the
England rugby team into aposition where we could actually
(36:38):
win a World Cup.
We'd had a number of failingsalong the way with losing
important games of six Nationsmatches where we lost grand
slams.
potentially, we were beingcalled chokers.
and then to get, or to go intoWorld Cup as favorites and, not
necessarily perform at ourhighest level in, throughout the
whole tournament.
(36:58):
You, at the vital moments, wewere winning matches and
ultimately we won the final.
So they're like two of the bigmoments.
That stand out from a teamperspective.
very fortunate to have just beeninducted into World Rugby Hall
of Fame, so that was justunbelievable surreal.
(37:19):
so there, there's lots of thesemoments, but, then I went back
to my old rugby club and I,still go back, I try to go back
a couple of times a year inSalisbury and I went to one of
the vice president lunches,which would've been the first
one I've, ever been able to getto in December.
And it's just that ability tosit down with players.
(37:40):
As I say that, you've known forso many years of your life and
you get to the, go back to theroots of it all and enjoy the
camaraderie of playing the, theplayers I played with, as I say,
minis, juniors, adult rugby, theplay or the, people who watched
on the sidelines who weren'tplayers, but they've supported
you the whole way through.
it's just that warm feeling ofwhat the values of rugby can do
(38:03):
for you.
And, it's an important part forme is to, remember where I came
from, and, the role thateveryone played.
So, I just love I love beingable to go back and, spend time
with those people.
Arthur (38:17):
In your view, who is or was the most complete back rower
to play the game?
Richard (38:22):
I think I played against lots of players and you
try and pick out what thequalities are.
I think there's no doubt when weused to play against New
Zealand, the All Blacks, theywould have.
These unbelievable open sides,players that would attack the
ball in what is nor Yeah, well,what would be deemed now as the
(38:44):
norm.
But you had the likes of MartyHolah, Richie McCaw Josh
Kronfeld, all these greatplayers and, we weren't, as I
say, used to'em, so trying toget'em off the ball, that it was
just.
Tough work.
So I think there was that, butthen you play against some of
the South Africans and AndreVentor, AJ Ventor, like these
(39:05):
unbelievably uncompromising andtough players.
So where would I sit on anindividual?
Oh, good question.
And again, I haven't evenmentioned George Smith.
George Smith, great player.
yeah, quite tough.
There were times where wethought we'd got on top of him
and then there'd be times wherehe'd just appear from nowhere.
(39:27):
I think that's the strength ofgreat players is that they learn
to reinvent themselves and theylearn to, make you believe
they're, not in the game, andthen all of a sudden you forget
about'em and they reappeartough.
I might have to come back to youon this one.
Arthur, come back to me one dayand ask me again.
One other one per person.
Arthur (39:47):
Thank you.
I just wanna say thank you somuch for my podcast.
I really appreciate you takingyour time.
Richard (39:53):
Arthur, it's been a pleasure.
I, really enjoyed it and greatat what you're doing, for, the
young people out there and, yourwork ethic in terms of the
people that you are getting onyour show.
Well done.
Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends
podcast.
In each episode, I interview anamazing rugby player or coach to
get their insight and advice foryoung rugby players just like
me, who are keen to learn andget better.
In this episode, I'm reallyexcited to be speaking with
Richard Hill, England World Cupwinner and three times Lions
(00:26):
tourist.
Richard is definitely a legendof the game.
He's widely regarded as one ofEngland's best players of all
time, as well as one of thegreat back row players of the
modern game.
Richard played his club rugby atSaracens making 275 appearances
over a 15 year period.
He was capped 71 times byEngland and played in five tests
(00:50):
for the British Irish Lions.
I hope you find Richard'sknowledge and wisdom has helpful
as I did, enjoy.
Firstly, thank you so muchRichard, for being on my
podcast.
I really appreciate taking yourtime.
Richard (01:06):
That's great, Arthur.
I'm looking forward to joiningyou.
Arthur (01:09):
So firstly, Richard, you are a phenomenal rugby player
and was spotted by England froma very young age, but did you
play any other sports growingup?
Richard (01:19):
I did, and I think it's an important part of development
as a young player, and it wascertainly an important part with
myself.
I went to a tiny little, primaryschool, so I think there were 64
children in the whole school,but there were only four in my
year group.
so I got to play for schoolteams from quite a young age, so
(01:43):
it didn't matter whether it wasfootball, rounders, I, tended to
make the team from about sevenyears up to, up to finishing
school.
So that, that was great'cause itwas good exposure.
playing against peoplele thatwere bigger, or schools that had
more players than us.
clearly we tried to pitch itthat we played against smaller
(02:04):
schools like ourselves, so itwas more of an even match.
But, I'd play football, on aSaturday morning, literally just
within my little village.
I'd play rugby on a Sunday, butthen when I went to secondary
school.
much bigger school.
It opened me up to a lot moresport.
obviously within PE, we'd playbasketball, we'd play cricket,
(02:28):
we'd do athletics.
rugby was, the main sport.
so that was good for me.
but then if we played football,I'd be the bloke who was wearing
oversized metal studs againstpeople who didn't like it.
So I got a bit of a reputationearly on for the player that
they didn't like to playagainst.
Arthur (02:47):
and what was your favorite sport except from rugby
then?
Richard (02:50):
so rugby clearly was my main winter sport.
but football is so much easierto play, particularly during
break time, lunchtime.
So I would always take part inthat.
And then summer sport would'vebeen more cricket.
but I very much did thatsocially.
with friends, and then wouldoccasionally turn out for some
(03:11):
local village teams if they wereshort on a Saturday, I, didn't
commit to every weekend.
If I did that, then I'd neverhave a Saturday to, to myself at
all.
Arthur (03:21):
Where you a batsman or bowler in cricket?
Richard (03:23):
I'd prefer to bowl
Arthur (03:25):
seam or spin?
Richard (03:27):
Seam.
It wouldn't be fast, not with mysize, but particularly if you
went down and played on some ofthe grounds in the new forest
with some of the conditions downthere, you've got a lot of
swing.
Arthur (03:38):
You represented England at every age group level.
What made you successful whenyou were still a teenager?
Richard (03:45):
well, I was fortunate that.
I went and played rugby when Iwas five years old at my junior
rugby club, Salisbury.
So I was lucky in that we had agood group of friends, who all
played, all enjoyed, all reallycompetitive.
So we did push each other, eventhough we weren't pushing each
other in terms of win or lose.
It was just, who can carry thebest, who can tackle with the
best?
(04:07):
but we also had some coaches whomade it very enjoyable, which I
think is great in terms of,retaining players.
so we were a group of playersthat have stayed together.
I'm still good friends withplayers that I played with when
I'm five and six years old.
and then I went to a secondaryschool that concentrated on
rugby.
so we played on Saturdays beforeChristmas.
(04:29):
we had some good coaches, a guywho led the program who was ex
Marine.
So he very much believed inbeing fit as well as having good
skills.
so he taught us, some, goodbasics to have and I think that
aided game understanding.
and because we were in a goodrugby playing program, we got to
play against, some of the localprivate schools, some private
(04:52):
schools that were further away.
We were able to expand thequality of teams we were playing
against, and that, that helped,massively.
And then I just found myselfreally joining what was.
The old system of, trying toplay for England, you, started
in on a very convoluted program,of playing against a team to
(05:15):
make a new team to play againsttwo other teams that have come
together, and it just snowballedlike that.
So I probably got encouraged bya friend who was one years older
who played for England.
U16's and U18's.
And he said that he thought Ihad more than enough quality to
get into the team the yearafter.
So I suppose that's a, that wasa boost.
(05:37):
and something that I took onboard.
But like any young player comingthrough, I had some of the
normal discussions around, I wasdeemed under sixteens too small.
to, to have forced my way intothe starting team, which meant
whilst I sat on the bench forEngland under sixteens, I never
got on the pitch.
(05:57):
So there are all these momentsin your career where you look at
it and go, it's setbacks thatpushed you.
And there were other times whereyour desire to improve a skill
got you better, but, you justhad to pick and choose each
time, what, was the mostimportant part for you?
Arthur (06:14):
And as you talked about friends, do you still talk to
any of them today?
Richard (06:19):
Yeah.
I'd just been down to Australiato watch the Lions, so I
would've caught up with one ofmy friends, who was, I'd have
been like five or six years oldwhen we first played together.
another friend would've been.
Who now lives in Australia wasmy first team captain at school.
(06:39):
I met up with the Salisburyfirst 15 adult captain, who was
my captain when I debuted as a16-year-old.
there were other members of myold junior rugby club out there.
And then of course there werelots of people connected with,
playing rugby as a professionalwith Saracens, or whether it's
England or Lions.
Arthur (07:00):
What's your favourite game at the Lions?
Richard (07:02):
on the one just gone.
I only got to watch the secondand third test live.
I thought they played incrediblywell in the first test.
a very dominant, and I thoughtit was gonna be an ominous,
result and performance forAustralia.
But, I enjoyed the fight back ofthe Lions'cause I in the second
(07:22):
test,'cause I thought that gamewas going away from'em and they
stayed in it and their abilityto, every time getting the 22
and score became ultimately.
Very important.
And, scoring in the last play ofthe game was very dramatic.
And, I suppose the lions crowdin the stadium were euphoric.
Arthur (07:41):
Were you always going to be a flanker?
What other positions did youplay growing up?
Richard (07:46):
So because, minis would've been nine aside, that,
that.
That meant I could play prettymuch anywhere in the forwards,
but when I was probably fromabout 10 years onwards, if the
under thirteens needed extraplayers, I tended to be one of
those who played up.
So I played two years up forunder thirteens and then one
(08:09):
year up.
But there was almost like thisunwritten agreement that if
there was someone who played inthe back row or they had a whole
back row who were underthirteens, then they played in
the back row.
'cause it's their team.
I, so there, therefore, I wouldjust play in whatever positions
they were short.
So I might have a run out awing.
I remember one day playing downin, near Bristol in Keynsham it
(08:34):
was, and the river was flooded.
So I was playing fullback inabout two inches of water, which
meant I didn't really see muchof the ball in that game.
But again, I might get loanedout to other play, other teams
just so they had 15 players.
I remember having a.
one game at fly-half.
but I think nine is probably theone position I never really got
(08:56):
trusted with too big.
Couldn't bend over, couldn'tbend over quick enough.
but no, I, loved it.
And certainly in terms of like,if you were to say
representative rugby, I wasalways, my younger years, I was
always a, number eight.
it wasn't until I joinedSaracens and then there was this
period where it was likeeveryone had to be massive, so I
(09:21):
was deemed too small to playnumber eight, but then clearly
the game, changed a bit, becamea bit more dynamic, a bit
faster, and therefore playinganywhere in the back row became
a possibility.
but as we're seeing withversatility with, Ben Earl for
England playing in the center,if we had a yellow card, then I
(09:41):
might be asked to go out in thebacks to defend.
Either as a first option off theline out, or go out on the
blindside wing or even just stepin at the centers.
it's good to have that abilityto, play in other positions,
just to give yourself a bebetter chance of selection.
Arthur (10:00):
Talking about positions, what position on the rugby pitch
did you rely the most?
Richard (10:06):
I think we all rely a lot on the props.
they, do a lot of the unseenwork.
they play in a position I'm notsure I really want to play, but,
the scrums important.
They, their role in lifting andI think, you could say it's the
whole way across the front rowbecause if you've got a hooker
(10:27):
who's not hitting his target inthe line out, then you don't
have any first phase possession.
No first phase possession meansthe backs are doing nothing bar
defending.
So unless they like defending,and then it's not much use to
them.
I think they probably prefer tohave the ball in their own
hands.
Arthur (10:42):
That's exactly what David Flatman says,'cause quite
a lot of people say fly-half orscrum-half.
But he said props.
Richard (10:48):
Well, he would say prop, wouldn't he?
Arthur (10:50):
What's the, what was the facet of rugby, which was your
particular strength growing up?
Richard (10:56):
as I say, I think I got involved with some good coaches
when I was younger, and I, thinkwhat they were able to do was
instill a very good game.
Understanding, reading the game,reading the bounce of a ball,
trying to anticipate where youthink opposition are, gonna
attack.
understanding where we might bea little bit short in defence
or, if, you were to appear onthe outside shoulder of the
(11:20):
fly-half there's space outside,so therefore there's a line
break opportunity.
yeah, the reacting.
Reacting to how the gameunfolds, I think was a good
strength of mine.
Arthur (11:30):
That's very interesting.
Thank you.
What did you enjoy most aboutplaying flanker?
Richard (11:37):
that you are always in the game.
flankers are always quite closeto the game set piece.
Clearly you have your role todo, whether that's to, push
incredibly hard or in the lineout you are potentially lifting
or jumping or, offering a dummy.
but then once the ball goes out,you, tend to be tracking the
ball.
You wanna be somewhere near it.
(11:58):
if you're an open side flankerthat you, there's normal
expectation on first phase thatyou are gonna be securing it or
linking and passing.
so it is, I think it's that allround enjoyment of being near
the ball and playing with theball, or you have to enjoy
defending as well.
So.
Chasing people down, trying toknock'em over, get the ball
(12:21):
back.
it's, all, going on all thetime.
Arthur (12:24):
How difficult was it be to be?
How difficult was it to switchbetween open side and blind
side?
Richard (12:32):
I found it quite comfortable.
I, think that probably helpedby, I would be rotating between
the two quite regularly, whetherit was England and, club would
play me Majoratively open side.
but I did play a.
Across all three back rowpositions.
England again was probablypredominantly blindside, but
(12:54):
then I started as an open side,trained a lot, to make sure that
if we picked up injuries orthere were certain substitutions
that were made that we werecovering off, peop that we made
sure that we were allcomfortable with the calls and
that it didn't affect the teamif we made any changes or
changes were enforced upon us.
(13:16):
Yeah, so I was quite comfortablewith going between the two.
Truth be known, I probablypreferred to play open side,
but, just want to be selected,want be in the team and want to
be having the, biggest impact onteam performing when I'm
winning.
Arthur (13:32):
What did you like so much about Openside?
Richard (13:35):
it was more the, just being closer to the ball.
Yeah, probably a little bit moreball movement, as in passing,
you get your hands on the ball,you you're able to make more
line breaks.
Whereas a, blindside, it mightbe that it's you've gotta have a
bit more physical presence to begetting through, the two man
(13:56):
tackles that you're facing.
Arthur (13:58):
Who was the most influential teammate in your
career, and what did you learnfrom them?
Richard (14:03):
So many players.
hard to put it down to oneindividual.
if, even if I was just to keepit at an England level, you got
Martin Johnson who is a colossalleader, just a man who you
respected because.
Whatever he was asking you todo, you knew he was prepared to
(14:26):
do it himself.
you had Jonny Wilkinson whounbelievably diligent in terms
of his skill development, hisown.
practise around kicking, goalkicking, there's no wonder he
was so good and so measured andmade such great decisions'cause
he practised it so much.
(14:48):
I'd love to say Jason Robinson,his running ability, but I was
never gonna be able to copythat.
So there was not, much point.
But, yeah, so many great playersout there.
And even, club level.
There's a guy called TonyDiprose who I played with.
International age grade.
Yeah.
when I joined Saracens, he was avery, he was already an
established first team player ata young age, who had great
(15:12):
skills.
so yeah, you're always trying tosee how much, you can pick up
off other people.
you gotta be honest withyourself.
You got to, as I say with Jason,you've gotta understand whether
you can, you are capable ofbeing able to replicate the
skills, whether you've got the,physical capability or, the
skillset to do it.
(15:33):
Otherwise you can get yourselfinto a bit of a mess on a rugby
pitch by trying to copy a skilland getting it completely wrong.
Arthur (15:39):
Who's been your most challenging coach and why?
Richard (15:42):
the, first ever school head of school, he was a very
uncompromising man, get on wellwith him.
took him out a couple of yearsago for his 80th birthday.
But yeah, Steve Ralph-Bowman,phenomenal in terms of, yeah,
what he instilled in me with,some of the basic skills of
(16:06):
drawing, running towards aplayer with a ball in hand,
drawing the opposition, puttingsomeone else away.
He set up our teams brilliantly.
As I said, he was an ex-Marine,so therefore he physically
pushed us.
there was the mindset side ofit, which he was used to around
his military background.
if, no one turned up, if noteacher turned up for rugby
(16:27):
training, still happened.
We didn't know whether it wasdeliberate or not, but you knew
if you didn't organise yourselfwell enough, you didn't do the
fitness session or a fitnesssession that we thought we were
meant to do, or the rugbytraining that would help us for
the game of the weekend.
We would get told off.
so there was him, I think from amore technical point of view, I
joined Saracens and there wasthis guy called Mark Evans who
(16:48):
helped transition me from anumber eight to a.
To a, open side flanker, whichprobably needed a little bit of
technical tweaking.
And then there's no doubt inthat when we got to.
England, the likes of AndyRobinson, who I worked with for
quite a long time, who helpedmentor me a couple of years
before I, I became an Englandfirst team, regular.
(17:11):
he, would be tough anduncompromising with some of the
more physical skill developmentthat was needed around
breakdown, clearing breakdowns,or whether it's lines of run,
trying to anticipate where thegame is gonna be played.
Arthur (17:24):
What's one piece of advice you'd give to a youngster
who wants to be a successfulflanker?
Richard (17:29):
I always believe that you've got to enjoy it.
if you're not enjoying it's atough world to be in.
it's a physically demanding andquite often for young players
coming through, it's the sportyou played.
As your recreation, your weekendenjoyment.
(17:49):
Now, if you're not enjoying itand it's your job, it becomes a
really hard thing to do.
so you've definitely gotta keepthat, there's no doubt.
And in the higher, if you wantto play up at higher levels,
then you've got to be placinghard work.
Yeah, you gotta work hard to getthere.
(18:10):
you gotta be real.
you gotta understand what you'regood at and, play to those
strengths.
but there are certain elementsof the game, which if you want
to be an international rugbyplayer, it doesn't matter what
your position, you still have toproficient at it.
Everyone has to tackle.
there's no hiding away fromtackling.
(18:31):
You can probably hide away fromball carry.
but ideally we want 15 playerswho can carry the ball.
Arthur (18:38):
Exactly how did you keep positive and bounce back from
the injuries that interruptedyour career?
Richard (18:45):
Injuries is definitely the toughest part of it, or I
found the toughest part of it.
There's the one, two weekinjuries, which I think you can
just about live with, but thatmoment that someone tells you're
gonna be out the game for atleast six months is, tough.
the first time I tore my ACL,I'm fortunate in that, although
(19:09):
there were a couple of momentswhere, we needed a bit of a
reset and some interventionsthat needed to happen.
It relatively went to plan, butunfortunately the second time,
wasn't, and I was out of thegame for 16 months, and then
when you got people suggestingthat maybe you should retire and
I wasn't ready to retire, thatbecomes tough because, in order
(19:33):
to prove them wrong, you've gotto hit some really high physical
standards as well as being ableto, to move and run properly.
And I found that I had to adaptmyself, my running, my rugby, in
order to be able to have thelast year and a half that I did
(19:53):
in rugby, which some peoplewould say wasn't possible, but
one man's not possible isanother man's challenge.
Arthur (20:02):
That's a good quote.
Richard (20:04):
I dunno where that came from.
Someone.
It must, I must have read itsomewhere.
Arthur (20:10):
what would you say was your worst injury?
Richard (20:14):
the worst one was by far a torn ACL, anterior
cruciate ligament for the secondtime.
that was tough because there wasa lot that had to be fixed, and
it definitely didn't go to plan.
and at one point I was advisedto go and see a second
specialist and his advice was,you need to retire now.
(20:36):
I came out, had a very emotionalcall with my own surgeon, and
said that I want, one more, onemore crack at it.
And I'm so glad I did.
Yeah.
it might have taken a long, timeto come back and play, but I'm
glad I did.
Arthur (20:53):
are there any mantras that you live by?
Richard (20:55):
the harder, the hard, the harder you work, the more
you'll get out of it.
Arthur (20:59):
What does that mean to you?
Richard (21:01):
so I always felt that fitness was an important part of
my position and what allowed meto play to my super strengths.
my super, strengths would'vebeen my work rate around the
pitch.
the number of tackles I was ableto make, the amount of times I
was able to.
(21:21):
Actively get on the ball as anattacking option or to secure
possession.
So I knew that I needed to be asfit as I could be.
and that meant putting in somepretty horrible fitness
sessions.
and you can't always, you can'talways have people around to
watch you, or to help youthrough it.
Sometimes you've gotta go outthere on your own.
(21:44):
and sometimes it's too easy foryour concentration to.
To dip a little bit, and youmight do one, one sprint of a
pitch that was 96% of what itshould have been, 98%.
But each time you're not hittinga hundred percent of what it
would be.
You are letting yourself down oryou're not gonna achieve what
you were hoping to.
(22:04):
and that, that's the challenge.
very lucky that, one, one of mybest mates who we ended up
living 20 meters apart, KevSorrell,, he became a big part
of my training.
and likewise I did for him.
And, there are some days when itmight be optional whether you
want to go out and do something,but if I was, let's say going,
(22:27):
oh, I'm not sure I've got theenergy, or, yeah, let's see that
what happens.
He might say, well, I'm doingit, and vice versa.
So invariably the psychology ofmissing out.
fear, the fear of missing out.
FOMO becomes, came a big thing.
if.
Christmas day was a day thatneeded to be a training day.
whether it was, with the team,more likely without the team, I
(22:50):
would just pop up to my localrugby pitch, whether it was in
London or back home inSalisbury, if I was with my
parents and, just get on and doit.
there's no point missing out onopportunities that are gonna be
there.
Arthur (23:04):
Wow.
Thank you.
How did you handle your nervesfor a big game.
Richard (23:09):
this is one of the bits that I wish wasn't part of the
sport, but they are, and theywere an important part of me.
I got nervous before games.
I'm not, saying, outta control.
'cause clearly I was able toplay at a level I did, but.
I suppose the best instance Ican give you before the World
(23:31):
Cup final, I'm in the changingroom for an hour, and a half
before the game, and maybe,yeah, probably even 30 minutes
before the game because wehaven't started the warmup and
I'm there thinking to myself,I'm so nervous.
Why do I put myself throughthis?
But why?
And then I'm thinking, this is aWorld Cup final and you are
questioning whether you shouldbe sat in this room.
(23:53):
In this changing with thesegreat players and with such a
great thing that's about tohappen.
clearly we don't know whetherthey're gonna win or not, but
this is one of the greatestopportunities you'll have in
life.
And you are questioning, do Iwanna step foot out there?
it wasn't dis debilitating.
I knew I was gonna be going outthere and I knew the moment that
(24:14):
I stepped foot on the pitch tostart the warmup, these nerves
were gonna start dissipating.
They were gonna start goingaway.
And once kickoff happened,they're gone because we're back
into instinctive side of things.
You're into the competition ofwanting to chase down george
Gregan, you want to try andtackle, whoever it might be.
(24:38):
you've got all these activitiesthat are going on to distract
you, and you just become a rugbyplayer.
You almost like start, blockingout some of the noise that's
going on in the crowd.
it just becomes a backgroundnoise.
but as I say, it's, reallyimportant.
The, very next week, the weekafter we played in the World Cup
(24:59):
final, I arrived back in Englandon something like the Tuesday or
the Wednesday.
I popped into Saracens on theway home, and I spoke to our
head coach Francois Pinaar, andhe said, you two days off, but I
need you to play at the weekendagainst Rotheram because it's
11th versus 12th in the league,and we are the bottom two teams.
(25:24):
so I need you to train on, on, Ithink it was Friday.
I was like, right.
Okay.
So yeah, that's fine.I'll have acouple of days now and then I'll
come in on Friday.
I'll learn
the line out calls, but the rest
of it I'm playing.
I off the cuff.
I'm gonna play as just a naturalrugby player who just, I'm gonna
play what I see.
He went, yeah, fine.
(25:45):
I was nervous before playingRotheram and.
Not as nervous as the weekbefore in the World Cup Final,
I'm nowhere near as nervous, butI was nervous.
But to me, it was an importantpart of knowing that I was ready
for a game.
I accepted the challenge of thisis competition.
this is, we, we wanna win, wewanna perform well.
so it's part of it.
(26:07):
So I, I, I learned to accept,but didn't mean I enjoyed, but I
also knew that if I didn't havethose nerves.
I probably wasn't caring aboutthe game.
Arthur (26:18):
That's really interesting.
Richard (26:20):
Do you get nervous?
Arthur (26:21):
I get quite nervous for a game, but then as what I
learned from Dan Bigger, hesaid.
People have used up that wholeSaturday to come and watch you,
so you shouldn't get nervous.
Richard (26:31):
Very good.
There you go.
Learning all the time.
Arthur (26:35):
Exactly.
When playing for England or theLions how did you handle
competing for your position?
Richard (26:41):
competition was always high.
you play a professional club,and you know that you've got
perform well.
that you know that when you joina club, you've gotta try and
perform better than someone elsebecause you want their position.
you know that you've been boughtin on the hope that's what
you're capable of doing.
(27:02):
So it, there, there is a realismon it.
but you've gotta, you've gottafight hard, work hard.
I don't, you can't not haveempathy for someone who's,
you've taken their place.
but ultimately, if you've, takenyears to force your way into an
England team.
You don't wanna be giving it upeasily.
(27:22):
so whilst I was fortunate enoughto play in a back row with
Lawrence Dallaglio and NeilBack, we, knew that the moment
it was felt that one of us orone of us wasn't performing
well, or if we weren'tcollectively performing as a
team.
There was a whole line of backrow forwards who wanted our
(27:43):
position.
so if you look Lewis Moody,Martin Corry, Joe Worsley,
they're all guys who went on toget 70, 80 caps.
But the majority of it would'vebeen when the, myself, Lawrence,
or back had well, one or morehad removed along or injured.
but if we hadn't have beenperforming well, they would've
(28:05):
been a hundred cappers.
so that's the quality of playerthat you had to keep out of the
team.
so if you move it up again toanother level, you then you go
to Lions, well, you're competingagainst all your in England
colleagues, but you're alsoplaying against the best in, the
other countries.
So I, do remember before the2001.
(28:26):
Tour, being given a heads upthat it's gonna be really tight
on whether you get into the testteam.
the one thing we haven't got isline out jumpers in the back
row.
So, fortunately there was amonth before the tour left where
I was able to utilise the skillsof Dave Flatman, George Schuter
Danny Grewcock, Julian White,who were all playing at Saracens
(28:49):
at the time to learn how tojump.
It was very.
Ugly process to start with.
they used to call me the flyinghelicopter'cause they used to
flap me arms as I went up.
but ultimately in that month Ilearned a new skill.
and I think that's probably theimportant part of Do you accept
competition or not?
The moment you stand still as aprofessional rugby player or
(29:12):
any, player of any, competition.
if you're not prepared to moveyour game on, like likelihood is
someone's catching you up frombehind.
So you always need to bereinventing yourself or continue
to improve the, strengths ofyour game, as well as working on
what the perceived weaknessesare.
Arthur (29:31):
Speaking about not performing well, how did you
bounce back after a bad game?
Richard (29:36):
good question.
sometimes, well, there's achallenge there to try and put
it out your mind.
sometimes, if you've had a badgame and it's because you've
made mistakes.
Are they uncharacteristicmistakes?
are they the sort of things youjust have to say, I dunno what
happened today.
you still carry on practicingthe skill.
(29:59):
but there's almost like anunderstanding of I don't think
that's gonna happen again.
there are other things where youjust go, well, look, the
opposition recognised that theybelieve.
There's a weakness in my game,at which point you don't want
anyone else to be following thattrend.
So you've gotta work on it andwork hard on it.
I would've always seen myself asa young player who made a lot of
(30:20):
tackles.
but as I started moving up, thequality of rugby, you realise
the physical nature of thetackles has to be that much
better.
'cause the players that you'replaying against now wanna run
through you.
so just.
grabbing around the ankles andhoping that they fall over is
not enough.
So that, would've been one areaof my, play that I had to,
(30:43):
improve.
Arthur (30:43):
Thank you.
What's the biggest Life lessonrugby has taught you that you
still use today?
Richard (30:49):
you get a lot of advice.
there's a lot of advice you getfrom varying different people.
I think you've gotta, you'vegotta recognise the people you
trust, the people who understandyou the best.
you've gotta recognise thatthere's some people who won't be
either of those, but they mightbe off to offer good advice.
But you've gotta understand andfilter it to whether you believe
(31:11):
it's useful for you.
I used the example of JasonRobinson in Rugby a man who had
unbelievable footwork, theability to accelerate over 10
meters.
I might be able to increase myspeed marginally over 10 meters,
but I was never gonna have hisagility and footwork.
So there's no point.
(31:32):
I, you can do bits and pieces,but I was never gonna get to
that.
But there are other players thatyou can copy and likewise, in
life, you have a level ofintelligence, you have a level
of empathy, you have a level of,just understanding that people,
and you've gotta work out whereyour skillset lies, how you can
(31:54):
support people or how they cansupport you.
but you, what you can't do isspend a lot of time.
Listening and trying toimplement things that are never
gonna be you.
They don't fit in with yourvalues of life.
Arthur (32:04):
What do you miss most about playing rugby?
Richard (32:07):
I miss the camaraderie of coming off the pitch, having
won a game.
Yeah.
That, that feeling in thechanging room of a, job well
done.
A satisfaction of the work thatyou've put in during the week.
has come to fruition.
You're tat you've tacticallynailed it.
(32:29):
and, then, going out andpossibly celebrating together.
one of the greatest feelingsthat we'd have had after the
World Cup final would've beenthe changing room afterwards.
there was almost like arealisation that once we left
the changing room, life wasn'tgonna be the same.
That group, were never gonnaplay again together.
(32:49):
They were never gonna have thechanging room experience ever
again.
We were never gonna play a gameof rugby again.
there were players that we knewwere gonna retire.
They hadn't said anything, butwe knew we were never going out
as a team again.
So we had to savour it while wecould.
Arthur (33:04):
Do you think rugby has changed for the better since
your playing days?
Richard (33:09):
I dunno, I think there's been a lot of, effort
put into making sure that ourgame is as safe as it can be.
clearly it's, a physical sportand, but when you look at some
of the, protocols, some of theinitiatives that have come in,
to make sure that, we look afterplayers on the pitch, we, we've
(33:30):
got protocols in place to, tomake sure that.
Players are looked after in, indays following injuries.
the medical provision isunbelievable now.
The opportunity to seespecialists, the greater
understanding.
there's been a lot, of, therewasn't a lot known when, rugby
was amateur and the early daysof professionalism.
(33:52):
So, we're, approaching nearly 30years on now, so there's a lot
of research there that can beused for the betterment of the
modern day player.
Arthur (34:00):
Can you tell us about your role as manager for the
England team?
What does it entail about andwhat do you enjoy about it?
Richard (34:08):
yes.
So, job title is England TeamManager.
we have, an unbelievable, teamoperations who work in terms of
getting all the organisationright.
My, my role sits, particularlyaround relationship between club
and country.
we have a, professional gamepartnership, which outlines, the
(34:30):
expectations for all the partiesinvolved, whether it's the,
yeah, the England rugby team,the RFU.
The clubs, and subsequent bodieswithin it with the players, and
we've just gotta make sure thatwe stick with it.
It's my role to, to make sure ona day-to-day basis, when the
players are in camp, that we arefulfilling our commitment to the
(34:50):
players and the clubs, makingsure, communicating well with
them so they understand who's inand out.
and I have a role aroundmentoring with some of the back
rowers.
Some of the back rowers werepart of what, when I was Academy
Ma working within the academy atSaracens, there were players
that were coming through theacademy.
Then I subsequently took on amentoring role.
(35:12):
the England rugby and some ofthe players were still at school
then, but they're all nowplaying for England.
And some of them are establishedBritish and Irish lions players
and some of them, well one ofthem is lucky enough to be a
captain, so of the lions.
So, yeah, those are all playersthat you like to think you've
had a small part in helping todevelop, understand, grow them
in a way that they want to begrown.
(35:34):
And yeah, that's one of the mostimportant parts I think for me,
is trying to help those players.
and help the team.
ultimately we're all there tohelp the team, to into great
performances and win rugbymatches.
Arthur (35:48):
Yeah, it's a team game.
What are you most proud of inyour rugby career?
Richard (35:52):
That's a tough one.
do you have brothers andsisters?
Arthur (35:56):
I have one brother, older
Richard (35:57):
Yeah.
Ask mum and dad, who's theirfavorite child.
that's, there, there are so manygreat things that have happened,
within my playing career, onthe, team side of it to play in
a, Winning Lion series in, SouthAfrica in 1997.
(36:17):
we went down there and there wasno expectation for us to win
that series.
In fact, a lot of people withinSouth Africa didn't believe we
were gonna win the games againstthe provincial teams.
So that was a unbelievablemoment.
But then you had, a longerprocess, which was getting the
England rugby team into aposition where we could actually
(36:38):
win a World Cup.
We'd had a number of failingsalong the way with losing
important games of six Nationsmatches where we lost grand
slams.
potentially, we were beingcalled chokers.
and then to get, or to go intoWorld Cup as favorites and, not
necessarily perform at ourhighest level in, throughout the
whole tournament.
(36:58):
You, at the vital moments, wewere winning matches and
ultimately we won the final.
So they're like two of the bigmoments.
That stand out from a teamperspective.
very fortunate to have just beeninducted into World Rugby Hall
of Fame, so that was justunbelievable surreal.
(37:19):
so there, there's lots of thesemoments, but, then I went back
to my old rugby club and I,still go back, I try to go back
a couple of times a year inSalisbury and I went to one of
the vice president lunches,which would've been the first
one I've, ever been able to getto in December.
And it's just that ability tosit down with players.
(37:40):
As I say that, you've known forso many years of your life and
you get to the, go back to theroots of it all and enjoy the
camaraderie of playing the, theplayers I played with, as I say,
minis, juniors, adult rugby, theplay or the, people who watched
on the sidelines who weren'tplayers, but they've supported
you the whole way through.
it's just that warm feeling ofwhat the values of rugby can do
(38:03):
for you.
And, it's an important part forme is to, remember where I came
from, and, the role thateveryone played.
So, I just love I love beingable to go back and, spend time
with those people.
Arthur (38:17):
In your view, who is or was the most complete back rower
to play the game?
Richard (38:22):
I think I played against lots of players and you
try and pick out what thequalities are.
I think there's no doubt when weused to play against New
Zealand, the All Blacks, theywould have.
These unbelievable open sides,players that would attack the
ball in what is nor Yeah, well,what would be deemed now as the
(38:44):
norm.
But you had the likes of MartyHolah, Richie McCaw Josh
Kronfeld, all these greatplayers and, we weren't, as I
say, used to'em, so trying toget'em off the ball, that it was
just.
Tough work.
So I think there was that, butthen you play against some of
the South Africans and AndreVentor, AJ Ventor, like these
(39:05):
unbelievably uncompromising andtough players.
So where would I sit on anindividual?
Oh, good question.
And again, I haven't evenmentioned George Smith.
George Smith, great player.
yeah, quite tough.
There were times where wethought we'd got on top of him
and then there'd be times wherehe'd just appear from nowhere.
(39:27):
I think that's the strength ofgreat players is that they learn
to reinvent themselves and theylearn to, make you believe
they're, not in the game, andthen all of a sudden you forget
about'em and they reappeartough.
I might have to come back to youon this one.
Arthur, come back to me one dayand ask me again.
One other one per person.
Arthur (39:47):
Thank you.
I just wanna say thank you somuch for my podcast.
I really appreciate you takingyour time.
Richard (39:53):
Arthur, it's been a pleasure.
I, really enjoyed it and greatat what you're doing, for, the
young people out there and, yourwork ethic in terms of the
people that you are getting onyour show.
Well done.
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