The Mindset That Outlasts Injury - Leon Lloyd

Leon Lloyd's story is packed with moments that’ll inspire anyone chasing their dreams. In this episode, Leon takes us through the highs and lows of his rugby journey - from football heartbreak to playing professional rugby by the age of 17.

He shares what it felt like to face Jonah Lomu on the field, and how he handled the massive expectations that came with debuting so young. There’s a powerful moment where he opens up about the injury that cut his career short, and how he found strength in moving forward.

We also get a behind-the-scenes look at the mental side of the game: the pressure, the wisdom he’d give his younger self, and what he learned from great coaches. Plus, Leon names the best player he ever faced and the moment in his career he’ll never forget.

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Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast.
In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me who are keen to learn and get better.
In this episode, I'm very excited to be speaking with Ex England International Winger and Outside centre, Leon Lloyd.

(00:25):
Leon played his first game for Leicester Tigers at the age of 17 and went on to play for the club 266 times over an 11 year period.
.756199235He scored over a hundred tries during his test career and has represented England at every age level, making his full debut in 2000 against South Africa. 6 00:00:46,753.756199235 --> 00:00:57,683.756199235 After an injury ended his playing career, Leon turned his lessons and experiences from rugby into skills for business and has recently been appointed to the board of Leicester Tigers. 7 00:00:58,383.756199235 --> 00:01:01,453.756199235 I hope you find Leon's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. 8 00:01:01,453.756199235 --> 00:01:13,667.787913136 Enjoy! Leon, how did you get into rugby and how old were you when you started? Oh, great first question! So unlike a lot of my teammates that I played with, I had the privilege to play with. 9 00:01:14,207.787913136 --> 00:01:17,257.787913136 I am actually here with you today as a failed footballer. 10 00:01:18,282.787913136 --> 00:01:26,52.787913136 My dream was to be a professional football player and I played sport and, I wanted to play for Coventry City and do all those wonderful things and play in FA Cup finals and everything else. 11 00:01:26,322.787913136 --> 00:01:30,762.787913136 But the school I went to, my senior school didn't play football, which is unusual really. 12 00:01:30,762.787913136 --> 00:01:32,52.787913136 And they only played rugby. 13 00:01:32,572.787913136 --> 00:01:34,662.787913136 I was sort of forced to play rugby. 14 00:01:34,842.787913136 --> 00:01:40,902.78791314 And every time I played, I felt like it was taking me away from being with my mates, my footballing mates. 15 00:01:41,22.78791314 --> 00:01:43,92.78791314 So I begrudged it a little bit at the start. 16 00:01:43,302.78791314 --> 00:01:45,752.78791314 And, I probably picked up my first rugby ball at the age 13. 17 00:01:46,757.78791314 --> 00:01:52,967.78791314 I didn't really know what to do with it 'cause I didn't really understand the laws of the game and it looked like just big people running into each other. 18 00:01:53,717.78791314 --> 00:01:56,27.78791314 So I tried to avoid that, but I was quite quick at running. 19 00:01:56,837.78791314 --> 00:02:04,847.78791314 So when I got the ball and I got given the ball, I ran through, probably fear of somebody else grabbing me and putting me on the floor and standing on me. 20 00:02:05,507.78791314 --> 00:02:09,947.78791314 And then it was a bit like, I dunno if you've seen the movie Forrest Gump, you might be young to have seen that movie. 21 00:02:09,947.78791314 --> 00:02:11,837.78791314 But I got the ball and everyone just shouted, run. 22 00:02:12,257.78791314 --> 00:02:13,7.78791314 And, I ran. 23 00:02:13,727.78791314 --> 00:02:15,47.78791314 And no one caught me. 24 00:02:15,737.78791314 --> 00:02:16,817.78791314 I kept running and kept running. 25 00:02:16,817.78791314 --> 00:02:19,637.78791314 And then, stopped, but they couldn't catch me. 26 00:02:19,697.78791314 --> 00:02:22,547.78791314 And then, so I picked up my first ball at 13. 27 00:02:22,922.78791314 --> 00:02:27,752.78791314 Then I played for my school team, then I played for Coventry and then Warwickshire and the Midlands. 28 00:02:27,752.78791314 --> 00:02:31,959.4545798 I was very fortunate to play for England Schoolboys, under 16's That's very interesting. 29 00:02:31,959.4545798 --> 00:02:32,619.4545798 Thank you. 30 00:02:32,889.4545798 --> 00:02:43,749.4545798 And what position did you play in football? I was right midfield, but again, much like my, my rugby mates, they'd kick the ball ahead and I would get to the ball quicker than anybody else. 31 00:02:43,959.4545798 --> 00:02:47,319.4545798 And I just wasn't very good at knowing what to do when I got to the ball, so I'd trip over the ball. 32 00:02:47,319.4545798 --> 00:02:49,179.4545798 So my speed was definitely my superpower. 33 00:02:49,494.4545798 --> 00:02:51,954.4545798 But I, liked to, liked to, play football. 34 00:02:52,216.12124647 --> 00:02:52,696.12124647 Thank you. 35 00:02:52,696.12124647 --> 00:02:57,847.78791314 And what other sports did you play growing up and what age did you give them up for rugby? Yeah. 36 00:02:57,847.78791314 --> 00:03:01,957.78791314 So I was quite sporty, like I'm sure most young boys, and girls are. 37 00:03:02,737.78791314 --> 00:03:04,357.78791314 Rugby was the sport that I didn't play. 38 00:03:04,807.78791314 --> 00:03:09,327.78791314 I did athletics, so I trained at Godiva Harriers at the track at Godiva Harriers. 39 00:03:09,667.78791314 --> 00:03:19,788.80353814 There were some Olympians, GB Olympians who weren't GB Olympians then at the time, but went on to win gold medals at Athens and my friends who I trained with in the speed sprint section, played cricket. 40 00:03:20,188.80353814 --> 00:03:22,548.80353814 I played basketball, I played hockey. 41 00:03:23,88.80353814 --> 00:03:30,778.80353814 I pretty much played all sports except for rugby, because I felt like at the time, like you just wanna get out and just run around and do stuff. 42 00:03:30,778.80353814 --> 00:03:42,208.80353814 I didn't realise how good that all those other sports were for having me with my hand-eye coordination, ultimately aided me in becoming a, a rugby player because all those little things add up. 43 00:03:42,208.80353814 --> 00:03:45,208.80353814 So yeah, I was very fortunate to have played lots of sports. 44 00:03:46,218.80353814 --> 00:03:47,178.80353814 That's very helpful. 45 00:03:47,178.80353814 --> 00:03:47,658.80353814 Thank you. 46 00:03:48,438.80353814 --> 00:03:54,542.13687147 And when did you know that you were really good at rugby? I played with some really good players. 47 00:03:54,542.13687147 --> 00:03:57,152.13687147 I don't think I've ever thought of myself as being really good at rugby. 48 00:03:57,452.13687147 --> 00:04:02,162.13687147 I've always felt of myself as someone who just feels lucky to be in the team with these really good players. 49 00:04:02,572.13687147 --> 00:04:04,622.13687147 I suppose, playing... 50 00:04:05,177.13687147 --> 00:04:08,27.13687147 I was always one of the better players in my team because I was quick. 51 00:04:08,687.13687147 --> 00:04:20,627.13687147 Then like anything, when you move up the levels, the age grade stuff, you play with other players who are the best in their school or best in region, and then all of a sudden you get to a point where the team you're in, everyone's good. 52 00:04:20,957.13687147 --> 00:04:26,147.13687147 So like England Schoolboys for example, everyone was pretty much the best for our age group. 53 00:04:27,527.13687147 --> 00:04:34,562.13687147 And then I got signed for Leicester Tigers, I played at Twickenham against Wales, and I got signed, Leicester Tigers. 54 00:04:34,562.13687147 --> 00:04:36,602.13687147 Then just before the game turned pro., 55 00:04:37,262.13687147 --> 00:04:40,22.13687147 then I moved across from Coventry. 56 00:04:40,412.13687147 --> 00:04:43,982.13687147 I played in the youth teams, so the Colts team under nineteens when I was 16. 57 00:04:44,12.13687147 --> 00:04:47,992.13687147 And I moved across to live with a guy called Martin Johnson, when I was a youngster. 58 00:04:49,22.13687147 --> 00:04:50,582.13687147 Left Coventry, left home, gonna live with him. 59 00:04:50,582.13687147 --> 00:04:58,247.13687147 And then I realised all of a sudden I'm with these superstars who, this is before they won the World Cup, before they did all that amazing stuff. 60 00:04:58,427.13687147 --> 00:05:04,127.13687147 You could just tell by the way they thought, the way they trained, the way they ate their food, the types of food they ate. 61 00:05:04,127.13687147 --> 00:05:06,707.13687147 They were really professional before the game turned pro. 62 00:05:07,457.13687147 --> 00:05:11,357.13687147 I think I was privileged to be in and around that environment such a young age. 63 00:05:11,567.13687147 --> 00:05:14,357.13687147 I they dragged me along really and just helped me improve. 64 00:05:14,658.80353814 --> 00:05:15,678.80353814 That's very interesting. 65 00:05:15,678.80353814 --> 00:05:16,158.80353814 Thank you. 66 00:05:16,668.80353814 --> 00:05:25,523.80353814 And when did you know that Wing, was your position wa, was this your decision or did it come from a coach? Yeah, so I played centre. 67 00:05:25,923.80353814 --> 00:05:29,863.80353814 I actually played centre for my schoolboy rugby all the way through. 68 00:05:29,983.80353814 --> 00:05:31,963.80353814 I got played for England, schoolboys are on the wing. 69 00:05:32,233.80353814 --> 00:05:34,603.80353814 And then I was playing a centre for Leicester Tigers in the youth team. 70 00:05:34,813.80353814 --> 00:05:37,933.80353814 And then what happened was, I was playing the youth team. 71 00:05:37,933.80353814 --> 00:05:45,508.80353814 I played one year in the youth team, the Colts, and then Tony Underwood, Rory Underwood's brother played at Leicester and he got injured. 72 00:05:45,868.80353814 --> 00:05:51,538.80353814 And I got asked if I would fill in and play a game on the wing for the first team when I was only 17. 73 00:05:52,258.80353814 --> 00:05:54,648.80353814 And it's like replacing Tony Underwood because he was injured. 74 00:05:54,978.80353814 --> 00:05:57,288.80353814 And I'm playing with all the superstars that I saw on tv. 75 00:05:58,8.80353814 --> 00:05:59,958.80353814 So I played on that in that game, and that was it. 76 00:05:59,958.80353814 --> 00:06:00,948.80353814 So I had the choice really. 77 00:06:00,948.80353814 --> 00:06:12,618.80353814 I had the choice to either continue my development as a rugby player in the centre and go back to the, youth team under nineteens and go under nineteens under 21's and just wait for my chance to break into the first team. 78 00:06:13,68.80353814 --> 00:06:29,83.80353814 Or because there was a gap and there was an injury and I was quite tall and I played and I scored a try, I had the opportunity to say, want to stay up here in the first team, senior squad on the wing or drop down to the youth team and in the centre. 79 00:06:29,103.80353814 --> 00:06:32,13.80353814 So for me as a 17-year-old, it was an easy decision. 80 00:06:32,313.80353814 --> 00:06:38,293.80353814 I said, I'll stay here on the wing and then hopefully wait for an opportunity to showcase, what I can do in the centre. 81 00:06:38,313.80353814 --> 00:06:45,993.80353814 So I did that, and I was fortunate that had a coach called Joel Stransky who won a World Cup for South Africa. 82 00:06:46,263.80353814 --> 00:06:57,842.13687147 He came over with Bob Dwyer and he saw me play on the Wing and he said, do you wanna have a go in the centre? Use your pace in the centre? 'cause we had some of the quick wingers and then I wormed my way in to the centre, after being there for a little bit. 83 00:06:57,842.13687147 --> 00:07:01,737.13687147 So I played a mixture of both, Wow, thank you. 84 00:07:01,887.13687147 --> 00:07:16,665.4702048 And what, one skill did you have to work on the hardest on? Really good question, because I think I spent a lot of time working on skills, which if I had my time again, I wouldn't do so I was, naturally quite quick, but I worked really hard on my speed. 85 00:07:17,580.4702048 --> 00:07:20,100.4702048 So I wanted that to be, I wanted to be quicker, obviously. 86 00:07:21,300.4702048 --> 00:07:26,940.4702048 I had a pretty strong handoff, a hand-fend, so if someone was half tackled me, I'd be able to hand them off and get round them. 87 00:07:26,940.4702048 --> 00:07:29,880.4702048 So they needed to make sure if someone was gonna tackle me, they'd need to be a solid tackle. 88 00:07:30,660.4702048 --> 00:07:35,10.4702048 I wasn't a very strong kicker of the ball, but all my teammates were. 89 00:07:35,10.4702048 --> 00:07:40,950.4702048 And I remember when I got into the England squad and Clive Woodward was a coach, and we had a guy called Dave Aldred, who's a kicking coach. 90 00:07:41,880.4702048 --> 00:07:43,530.4702048 who I was with seemed to be really good at kicking. 91 00:07:43,530.4702048 --> 00:07:56,635.4702048 So I spent hours upon hours, Trying to work on my left footed spiral kick, but bearing in mind, I'm right footed and my right footed kick wasn't strong, everybody else could kick it with both feet. 92 00:07:56,655.4702048 --> 00:08:03,945.4702048 So I spent so much time practicing my left foot kick thinking on that one occasion when I might need to use it, I'll have it in the, I'll have it in my locker. 93 00:08:04,395.4702048 --> 00:08:06,105.4702048 And guess what? It never came. 94 00:08:06,105.4702048 --> 00:08:06,825.4702048 It never came about. 95 00:08:06,825.4702048 --> 00:08:07,785.4702048 I never needed to use it. 96 00:08:07,785.4702048 --> 00:08:10,815.4702048 So I wasted hours and hours working on a skill that I didn't need. 97 00:08:10,815.4702048 --> 00:08:14,205.4702048 So I think if I had my time again, and what I say to younger players are. 98 00:08:15,210.4702048 --> 00:08:18,780.4702048 What are you good at? Find out the things that you're good at and work hard on those. 99 00:08:18,930.4702048 --> 00:08:22,50.4702048 So go from being good at those things to being really great at those things. 100 00:08:22,230.4702048 --> 00:08:28,230.4702048 And yes, improve your all round game, but there are some skills that you are likely not to need. 101 00:08:28,710.4702048 --> 00:08:33,300.4702048 And for me, that was left drilling a left footed 50 meter spiral kick. 102 00:08:33,360.4702048 --> 00:08:36,300.4702048 Although in my head on the computer it looked, it would look great. 103 00:08:36,990.4702048 --> 00:08:38,490.4702048 but in reality I was never called upon. 104 00:08:38,490.4702048 --> 00:08:39,990.4702048 So yeah, I wasted those hours. 105 00:08:41,190.4702048 --> 00:08:46,980.4702048 It is like you said, you, that's exactly what Dan Biggar said, he says, instead of them being good, make them your superpower. 106 00:08:47,445.4702048 --> 00:08:47,835.4702048 Oh, great. 107 00:08:47,835.4702048 --> 00:08:48,615.4702048 Yeah, ab absolutely. 108 00:08:48,615.4702048 --> 00:08:53,745.4702048 And he's a great one to talk about that, right? So the thing that you like, you, you're good at doing, and you're slightly better than everybody else. 109 00:08:53,745.4702048 --> 00:09:06,465.4702048 And just work really hard on that so you get known for that as opposed to being a good all round player, be an amazing, whatever player you want to be, like amazing finisher or amazing creative player, or amazing tackler. 110 00:09:06,645.4702048 --> 00:09:07,905.4702048 And then the other bits will come anyway. 111 00:09:09,360.4702048 --> 00:09:10,80.4702048 Thank you. 112 00:09:10,170.4702048 --> 00:09:24,313.24079086 And when did you know you were going to make it professional? I signed my first pro contract at 16 and then, just as a game term pro, but I always felt like I was, always the youngest in the team by, a, good few years. 113 00:09:25,243.24079086 --> 00:09:32,323.24079086 The likes of Lewis Moody and Geordan Murphy came in a little bit later, who are my age group, but Leicester didn't really change the team much back then. 114 00:09:32,713.24079086 --> 00:09:40,783.24079086 Even players who'd been in the team for, decades, even if they had a broken leg, they'd probably still get picked because that, was, that they didn't want to give up their shirt. 115 00:09:40,783.24079086 --> 00:09:47,933.24079086 So it, felt like, no, when selection was made, I always had this anxiety thinking, oh, am I gonna get picked? I never. 116 00:09:48,633.24079086 --> 00:09:52,648.24079086 really felt like my position was secure. 117 00:09:52,678.24079086 --> 00:10:02,998.24079086 And I dunno if that was because the competitiveness of the club and the culture, or my own insecurities or my own desire just to try and be the best I can be. 118 00:10:02,998.24079086 --> 00:10:07,168.24079086 But I think every time we, I could play a weekend and score hat trick and get man of the match. 119 00:10:07,558.24079086 --> 00:10:13,663.24079086 And then also I'd wait for selection and think, is my name gonna get read out? I just thought, I never expected it. 120 00:10:13,663.24079086 --> 00:10:15,13.24079086 I never took it for granted. 121 00:10:15,13.24079086 --> 00:10:20,983.24079086 I always appreciated the opportunity that I had, so I just, felt like I was living the dream. 122 00:10:21,43.24079086 --> 00:10:22,123.24079086 It didn't feel like a job. 123 00:10:22,243.24079086 --> 00:10:28,133.24079086 It felt like I was, getting paid to, to hang around my mates and, drive nice cars and be on tv. 124 00:10:28,565.1725416 --> 00:10:29,585.1725416 That's very helpful. 125 00:10:29,645.1725416 --> 00:10:30,275.1725416 Thank you. 126 00:10:30,335.1725416 --> 00:10:34,355.1725416 And you made your debut for Leicester, aged just 17. 127 00:10:34,625.1725416 --> 00:10:46,95.1725416 How scary was that and how, did you manage those fears? I remember it like, like it was yesterday, I was in the car park, so we trained on, it was a Thursday night, so it wasn't a league debut. 128 00:10:46,275.1725416 --> 00:10:48,315.1725416 My first debut was playing against rugby Lions. 129 00:10:48,705.1725416 --> 00:10:52,665.1725416 And we were in the car park on a Thursday night and I'd already just played with the youth, the Colts team. 130 00:10:52,665.1725416 --> 00:10:55,655.1725416 So I'd already done a Thursday session getting ready for the match on Saturday. 131 00:10:56,375.1725416 --> 00:10:58,515.1725416 The boss at the time was a guy called Tony Russ. 132 00:10:59,355.1725416 --> 00:11:01,675.1725416 He walked out into the car park. 133 00:11:01,675.1725416 --> 00:11:07,915.1725416 And I was about to go and watch Neil Back, who's, former World Cup winner British Lion, I'm sure you know who he is. 134 00:11:08,215.1725416 --> 00:11:15,85.1725416 And he used to drive me, when I first went to Leicester, he used to drive me over from Coventry I was gonna go and watch Backie in the first team play against Rugby. 135 00:11:15,715.1725416 --> 00:11:18,155.1725416 And Tony Russ walked out and said, Tony Underwood just got injured. 136 00:11:18,785.1725416 --> 00:11:27,625.1725416 we're a player short and, Backie, Lloydy will play, he's got his boots! And literally people talk about right time, right place. 137 00:11:27,865.1725416 --> 00:11:29,125.1725416 I was there Backie, didn't know. 138 00:11:29,125.1725416 --> 00:11:36,985.1725416 I'd just done a pretty hard session, but I had my, I did have my boots, and I just done a hard training session and Tony looked at me and went, have you got your boots? I don't even think he knew my name. 139 00:11:37,165.1725416 --> 00:11:39,115.1725416 And I went really scared. 140 00:11:39,115.1725416 --> 00:11:43,60.1725416 I went, yes, I jumped in the car, went over with Backie. 141 00:11:43,660.1725416 --> 00:11:48,790.1725416 Got into the changing room, and I remember I sat on the floor, right? So walked the changing rooms, I walked through the door. 142 00:11:48,880.1725416 --> 00:11:51,250.1725416 No one was expecting me to play because I wasn't in the team. 143 00:11:52,0.1725416 --> 00:12:01,450.1725416 There's Dean Richards and Aadel Kardooni, and John Liley and Rory Underwood, and Stuart Potter and all these players, which were the first team up here on the hierarchy. 144 00:12:01,600.1725416 --> 00:12:02,890.1725416 And I walk in with Backie. 145 00:12:03,100.1725416 --> 00:12:10,150.1725416 I think they must have thought I was just carrying his boots or something, and I walked in and there was no spare seats to sit down, so I didn't want to ask someone to move. 146 00:12:10,150.1725416 --> 00:12:11,440.1725416 So I just sat down on the floor. 147 00:12:11,830.1725416 --> 00:12:13,570.1725416 And got changed on the floor in the corner. 148 00:12:14,680.1725416 --> 00:12:15,580.1725416 and then the game kicked off. 149 00:12:15,580.1725416 --> 00:12:19,990.1725416 I didn't have, I didn't have enough time to prepare for it because it was literally, you're playing in two hours time. 150 00:12:20,860.1725416 --> 00:12:24,70.1725416 it would've been a bit different if I'd have had to, a week to the countdown. 151 00:12:24,70.1725416 --> 00:12:25,60.1725416 It happened so quickly. 152 00:12:25,750.1725416 --> 00:12:33,970.1725416 Thankfully I got the ball early on in that game and scored a try to settle my nerves through fear, I suppose I played against men. 153 00:12:34,630.1725416 --> 00:12:39,190.1725416 But yeah, that was it, the opening for me and it's right time, right place, and just having that opportunity and just taking that opportunity. 154 00:12:40,390.1725416 --> 00:12:41,545.1725416 Ah, it's very interesting. 155 00:12:41,605.1725416 --> 00:12:42,295.1725416 Thank you. 156 00:12:42,385.1725416 --> 00:12:45,885.1725416 And you played against a giant Jonah Lomu. 157 00:12:46,495.1725416 --> 00:12:55,255.1725416 What advice do you have for players like me who are on the smaller side of this sport full of big lads? Yeah, legend. 158 00:12:55,315.1725416 --> 00:12:56,905.1725416 The legend, that is Jonah Lomu. 159 00:12:57,265.1725416 --> 00:13:05,770.1725416 Remember the computer game that was around as well? He was a, any, anything in life, whether you in, sport or business, whatever it might be, you want to test yourself against the best people. 160 00:13:06,700.1725416 --> 00:13:13,60.1725416 And there's no bigger test than playing against Jonah Lomu, one of the greatest players, the game has ever seen, but it's also quite daunting. 161 00:13:13,876.1725416 --> 00:13:25,600.1725416 I, played against him a couple of times and the first time was against, I was playing for England against him at Twickenham, and I was nervous because, you make a mistake against someone like that and you, it could be career defining. 162 00:13:26,350.1725416 --> 00:13:29,920.1725416 Some people, a lot of people have played against him and never played again, especially at international level. 163 00:13:30,640.1725416 --> 00:13:32,740.1725416 The good thing about me is. 164 00:13:33,370.1725416 --> 00:13:41,50.1725416 I would much rather play against someone big like Jonah Lomu than someone small like yourself, smaller like yourself, who's quicker. 165 00:13:41,530.1725416 --> 00:13:55,240.1725416 So if I compare someone like a Jonah Lomu to a, Jason Robinson type player, would much rather play against Jonah Lomu than Jason Robinson because Rugby's, you've gotta be brave to play rugby and bravery. 166 00:13:55,690.1725416 --> 00:13:57,40.1725416 You can't coach bravery really. 167 00:13:57,40.1725416 --> 00:14:00,10.1725416 So I knew that Jonah Lomu, I was always gonna try and hit him. 168 00:14:00,370.1725416 --> 00:14:02,140.1725416 And go and try and tackle him all the time. 169 00:14:02,350.1725416 --> 00:14:10,30.1725416 However, a smaller, faster player who's sidestepping all over the place might get, Might make me look stupid, so I might not even be able to get hands on him. 170 00:14:10,30.1725416 --> 00:14:15,520.1725416 So I knew at least there's a chance if I get stuck in Jonah's legs, he might fall over, he might trip over me and might come down. 171 00:14:15,520.1725416 --> 00:14:23,560.1725416 So I suppose my advice would be is work technique, work on your technique, go low because I'm sure you've heard the phrase I can't remember they can't run without their legs. 172 00:14:24,430.1725416 --> 00:14:24,640.1725416 Go. 173 00:14:24,640.1725416 --> 00:14:28,750.1725416 No matter how big somebody is, if you grab hold of their legs and screw 'em together, they have to come down. 174 00:14:29,470.1725416 --> 00:14:33,400.1725416 that comes down to just technique and being brave and, putting your head in the right place. 175 00:14:34,150.1725416 --> 00:14:38,680.1725416 and just approach it that way rather than thinking I might get injured here, so I'm gonna go in halfhearted. 176 00:14:39,39.32387691 --> 00:14:40,59.32387691 That's very helpful. 177 00:14:40,89.32387691 --> 00:14:40,929.32387691 Thank you. 178 00:14:41,49.32387691 --> 00:14:44,139.32387691 And an injury put a stop to your playing career. 179 00:14:44,319.32387691 --> 00:14:50,674.32387691 How did you deal with such a big setback? What did you learn from that? Yeah, not very well. 180 00:14:51,364.32387691 --> 00:14:52,924.32387691 It very well, if I'm honest. 181 00:14:53,764.32387691 --> 00:14:54,874.32387691 I retired at 30. 182 00:14:55,504.32387691 --> 00:14:58,819.32387691 bearing in mind, I said before, I signed pro at 16. 183 00:14:58,819.32387691 --> 00:15:03,709.32387691 That's a long time to be playing, but in reality, 30, you, you're still a young man. 184 00:15:03,739.32387691 --> 00:15:04,879.32387691 You're still at the very early stage. 185 00:15:04,879.32387691 --> 00:15:07,789.32387691 You still got a lot of working to do work and life to do. 186 00:15:08,449.32387691 --> 00:15:20,509.32387691 I think the reason why I struggled with it so much was because a lot of my teammates were still playing, and in your mind, you know that, you romanticised about it or you think, oh, when we finish playing, we'll all go off and we'll all go and play golf together. 187 00:15:20,509.32387691 --> 00:15:21,649.32387691 We'll all go and do this together. 188 00:15:21,649.32387691 --> 00:15:22,309.32387691 We'll go on holiday. 189 00:15:22,309.32387691 --> 00:15:23,299.32387691 We'll have so much fun. 190 00:15:23,989.32387691 --> 00:15:26,569.32387691 The reality is retire on your own. 191 00:15:27,469.32387691 --> 00:15:34,9.32387691 You don't retire en masse and it's you, when you go, you don't really, the sport decides, it's had enough of you, when if you have an injury. 192 00:15:34,339.32387691 --> 00:15:38,119.32387691 So limp out of the sport, out the back door as opposed to going out. 193 00:15:38,119.32387691 --> 00:15:52,99.32387691 Not very many people leave on their own terms, after winning a World Cup like Martin Johnson for example, lifting the World Cup, then you leave, what a great way, to leave the sport, right? That's in, in movies and fairytales, but in reality, not always how it works. 194 00:15:52,99.32387691 --> 00:15:54,469.32387691 So I think I struggled with the transition. 195 00:15:54,829.32387691 --> 00:16:06,589.32387691 My transition out of sport because thought that I'd put lots of things in place and I had, and to be fair, I had put lots of things in place because I'd worked in different areas of business whilst I was still playing. 196 00:16:06,589.32387691 --> 00:16:07,699.32387691 'cause I was passionate about that. 197 00:16:08,119.32387691 --> 00:16:15,829.32387691 However, and you'll get this, you'll get this when you're a part of a team and you, and it's such a tight knit team, you feel like it's awesome. 198 00:16:15,829.32387691 --> 00:16:18,19.32387691 It's your mates what's really difficult. 199 00:16:18,19.32387691 --> 00:16:22,729.32387691 What was really difficult for me was that team still carrying on when I was no longer in the team. 200 00:16:23,809.32387691 --> 00:16:28,219.32387691 so what I mean by that is I didn't want them to lose, I wanted them to miss me. 201 00:16:28,249.32387691 --> 00:16:32,959.32387691 I want 'em to go, ah, it's not quite the same without Lloyd, but they don't. 202 00:16:32,959.32387691 --> 00:16:43,849.3238769 And they didn't you realise you were such a small part of a big machine and they have to carry on 'cause they've got another game on Saturday and another game on this week after, and then you just fade away into the background. 203 00:16:43,849.3238769 --> 00:16:48,739.3238769 So it is quite difficult to get your head around that when you've given everything to your sport. 204 00:16:48,739.3238769 --> 00:16:50,869.3238769 Then all of a sudden being on the outside looking in. 205 00:16:51,229.3238769 --> 00:16:52,519.3238769 But that's the nature of the sport. 206 00:16:52,729.3238769 --> 00:16:54,499.3238769 that's not, it won't, that will never change. 207 00:16:54,769.3238769 --> 00:16:58,39.3238769 I just think maybe people can prepare better for that. 208 00:16:59,269.3238769 --> 00:17:00,289.3238769 that identity piece. 209 00:17:01,294.3238769 --> 00:17:03,394.3238769 That's very helpful and. 210 00:17:04,489.3238769 --> 00:17:24,799.3238769 What do you miss most about playing rugby? Really easy to answer that the lads, the playing, the training, the preseason training where you don't wanna do it, you're gonna go through pain, shared pain together, of going through that stuff and then, the winning, even the losing, right? The winning and the losing. 211 00:17:24,799.3238769 --> 00:17:31,849.3238769 All of that is, is life skills that you are developing and you don't realise at the time, but they're so valuable. 212 00:17:32,29.3238769 --> 00:17:35,959.3238769 But doing it with your mates week in, week out, it is a real privilege. 213 00:17:36,559.3238769 --> 00:17:42,799.3238769 if I look to, if I look back on my career now, people ask me all the time, do you miss playing? I say, absolutely not. 214 00:17:43,99.3238769 --> 00:17:44,149.3238769 I do not miss playing. 215 00:17:44,149.3238769 --> 00:17:47,719.3238769 My body's broken and sore, but what I do miss. 216 00:17:48,409.3238769 --> 00:17:49,729.3238769 the five minutes before kickoff. 217 00:17:50,209.3238769 --> 00:17:53,149.3238769 When the changing room gets emptied, the coaches leave. 218 00:17:53,149.3238769 --> 00:17:55,969.3238769 It's just your mates, the captain. 219 00:17:55,969.3238769 --> 00:17:56,689.3238769 We're all in a huddle. 220 00:17:56,689.3238769 --> 00:17:59,959.3238769 We're looking around in each other's eyes, thinking about the opposition. 221 00:17:59,959.3238769 --> 00:18:05,669.3238769 We can hear them walking out the corridor onto the pitch, and we are there ready to go to battle against the enemy. 222 00:18:05,669.3238769 --> 00:18:09,649.3238769 And I'm dramatising it a little bit, but that's how we felt, that's how we approached it. 223 00:18:10,459.3238769 --> 00:18:12,919.3238769 So I missed that bit, that feeling where the hair on the back of your neck. 224 00:18:13,369.3238769 --> 00:18:17,239.3238769 Stands up because you know you're going out to that contest with your friends. 225 00:18:17,629.3238769 --> 00:18:18,499.3238769 Then the game's a game. 226 00:18:18,529.3238769 --> 00:18:18,979.3238769 80 minutes. 227 00:18:19,9.3238769 --> 00:18:19,759.3238769 80 minutes. 228 00:18:20,509.3238769 --> 00:18:29,239.3238769 I don't miss that bit, but I do miss when the final whistle's gone and I look around at my mates they've all got blood and stitches and all snot and all messy and everything else. 229 00:18:29,539.3238769 --> 00:18:33,949.3238769 I didn't, by the way, I kept myself clean and away from rubbish, but they're all in a mess. 230 00:18:33,949.3238769 --> 00:18:36,649.3238769 And I look around and we look at each other in the changing room. 231 00:18:36,649.3238769 --> 00:18:40,99.3238769 We look at each other in the eye, we say, "Great, same again next week". 232 00:18:40,729.3238769 --> 00:18:42,79.3238769 And that's pretty much what we did. 233 00:18:42,79.3238769 --> 00:18:43,489.3238769 We did that Saturday to Saturday. 234 00:18:43,489.3238769 --> 00:18:44,419.3238769 Same again next week. 235 00:18:44,419.3238769 --> 00:18:49,994.3238769 And I think that's what I miss, are all on that shared, journey, going together. 236 00:18:51,469.3238769 --> 00:18:52,519.3238769 That's very helpful. 237 00:18:52,879.3238769 --> 00:18:58,491.763046 And who's the best player you've played with or against? I've mentioned Jonah Lomu. 238 00:18:58,506.763046 --> 00:18:59,856.763046 Obviously he's a global superstar. 239 00:19:00,696.763046 --> 00:19:11,286.763046 I've actually already mentioned two people, Neil Back, who drove me over to Leicester, and shaped the way I approached my personal life, professional life, everything else with a dedication. 240 00:19:12,426.763046 --> 00:19:18,286.763046 I lived with Martin Johnson that absolutely shaped who I was and my accountability as a human being. 241 00:19:18,628.4297127 --> 00:19:20,143.4297127 The person I haven't mentioned, Geordan Murphy. 242 00:19:20,553.4297127 --> 00:19:26,623.4297127 Geordan Murphy is one of the most talented players I've played with, because the size of him is built like. 243 00:19:27,328.4297127 --> 00:19:31,378.4297127 nickname was "The Pencil", and that was because he was the size of a pencil, right? He was really small. 244 00:19:32,488.4297127 --> 00:19:33,988.4297127 but he was so brave. 245 00:19:34,48.4297127 --> 00:19:36,238.4297127 He was so skillful and so talented. 246 00:19:36,238.4297127 --> 00:19:40,448.4297127 And if I was picking a team, I'd pick his name, would be on that, on the sheet. 247 00:19:41,878.4297127 --> 00:19:46,48.4297127 Very lucky to have played against those, played with, or against those guys. 248 00:19:46,198.4297127 --> 00:19:49,468.4297127 yeah, so it'd be tough to pick one because they've all got different things. 249 00:19:49,498.4297127 --> 00:19:57,628.4297127 They've all got different skills and attributes, but I'd, like to make a player made up of all those people that would be a super player, wouldn't it? Thank you. 250 00:19:58,108.4297127 --> 00:20:13,120.8748166 And what wisdom do you have now that you wished you had at the age of 17? So I think when I was playing, So every, so if I played on a, if I played on a Saturday and I said before, I felt privileged to be there. 251 00:20:13,825.8748166 --> 00:20:24,655.8748166 If I didn't play very well, I would go home and I'd watch the game on TV or I'd read the match report and then I would be down in the dumps and wait to try and put it right during training or the next weekend. 252 00:20:24,895.8748166 --> 00:20:35,629.2081499 And then I suppose if I had my time again, what I've realised now is as awesome as being a professional rugby player is your job and we as individuals, as human beings is, we are more than our jobs. 253 00:20:35,899.2081499 --> 00:20:38,239.2081499 So I think I'd probably cut myself some slack a little bit. 254 00:20:38,644.2081499 --> 00:20:44,374.2081499 Not take everything so personal and so be so focused and try to have a little, yes, I did have fun. 255 00:20:44,434.2081499 --> 00:20:54,514.2081499 I absolutely had loads of fun, we celebrated fun when we won trophies and there was lots of other times when we could have celebrated more because it's not always just about winning trophies. 256 00:20:54,604.2081499 --> 00:20:55,534.2081499 Yes, we won. 257 00:20:56,524.2081499 --> 00:20:59,524.2081499 God, I think, I won 11 trophies with the Tigers when I was there. 258 00:21:00,454.2081499 --> 00:21:02,524.2081499 and lost in five finals. 259 00:21:02,584.2081499 --> 00:21:10,534.2081499 So that, that's a lot of, if you think about your career, they have good high points and a few low points, but there's also lots of other points in your career which you can celebrate. 260 00:21:11,14.2081499 --> 00:21:22,444.2081499 And I think I was so focused on trying to be the best I could be that I think maybe if I had my time again, I would relax a little bit more, or certainly pick points in the season where I could let my hair down, even though I haven't got much hair. 261 00:21:22,842.6369333 --> 00:21:31,232.6369333 And based on your experience, what would you say makes a great team? I think, accountability. 262 00:21:32,12.6369333 --> 00:21:39,92.6369333 So not, I don't need my teammates to tell me and I make a mistake, or the video analysis, or my coach is just owning your mistakes. 263 00:21:39,92.6369333 --> 00:21:41,388.0301084 I think that's really important, I need to be able to trust. 264 00:21:42,108.0301084 --> 00:21:46,188.0301084 My teammates and they need to be able to trust me that I am doing the right thing for the team. 265 00:21:46,188.0301084 --> 00:21:47,808.0301084 No one person is bigger than the team. 266 00:21:48,258.0301084 --> 00:21:52,638.0301084 So I think understanding that the role that you play within that team is hugely important. 267 00:21:53,418.0301084 --> 00:21:54,978.0301084 I do a lot of work in my job. 268 00:21:54,978.0301084 --> 00:21:58,848.0301084 My day job now is talking about teamwork and culture and how important that is. 269 00:21:59,88.0301084 --> 00:22:02,208.0301084 And I talk about celebrating other people's roles. 270 00:22:03,18.0301084 --> 00:22:10,8.0301084 so what I mean by that is the way I played the game, I was very fortunate to have scored, quite a lot of tries. 271 00:22:10,293.0301084 --> 00:22:15,423.0301084 So people may assume that I'm match winner, the person who, won the match. 272 00:22:15,423.0301084 --> 00:22:17,823.0301084 But in reality, it's not about me, it's never about me. 273 00:22:18,123.0301084 --> 00:22:26,13.0301084 'cause other people need to do their job to be able to win the ball, to create the space, to make the right decision for me to then do the easy job, put the ball down. 274 00:22:26,373.0301084 --> 00:22:34,203.0301084 So I think understanding your role within any team, but also appreciating other people's roles in that team is really, important. 275 00:22:34,653.0301084 --> 00:22:39,213.0301084 So the guys and girls who play that don't get the bottle of champagne or the play of the match. 276 00:22:39,873.0301084 --> 00:22:48,513.0301084 They're just as important, sometimes even more important, and they can often go and they can often be invisible because you don't see them, scoring or the champagne moment. 277 00:22:48,693.0301084 --> 00:22:52,773.0301084 So I think a great team recognises everybody else's roles and contributions. 278 00:22:52,914.696775 --> 00:23:01,329.2620569 what is the best piece of advice that coaches gave you? I tell you the worst piece of advice was go and practice kicking with your left foot for hours and hours. 279 00:23:02,109.2620569 --> 00:23:03,39.2620569 best of advice. 280 00:23:03,65.9287236 --> 00:23:08,539.5281301 I got it towards the end of my career, which was what, did you say Dan Biggar said the same thing about find your superpower. 281 00:23:08,724.5281301 --> 00:23:09,14.5281301 Yeah. 282 00:23:09,259.5281301 --> 00:23:13,369.5281301 Find your strengths, then work really hard on your strengths to make them superpowers. 283 00:23:13,714.5281301 --> 00:23:21,994.5281301 And I think I've got that later in my career and I wish should have known that or focused on that a bit more than, rather than trying to bring my level of trying to be as good a kicker as Jonny Wilkinson. 284 00:23:21,994.5281301 --> 00:23:22,774.5281301 It's never gonna happen. 285 00:23:23,764.5281301 --> 00:23:25,534.5281301 trying to do things as good as other players. 286 00:23:25,534.5281301 --> 00:23:30,154.5281301 I think you have to understand what you bring to the, team and do that to the best of your ability. 287 00:23:30,154.5281301 --> 00:23:31,624.5281301 And I think that was, great advice I got. 288 00:23:31,821.1947968 --> 00:23:32,371.1947968 Thank you. 289 00:23:32,461.1947968 --> 00:23:48,650.0582983 And on the rugby pitch, who's the one player who, what was the one position you would rely on the most? I'd rely on? Although it's not a glamorous position, if you haven't got a strong tight head prop, then you can't win the ball, right? And, we needed, we had good, strong, tight head props. 290 00:23:48,650.0582983 --> 00:23:51,650.0582983 Although we, I never really appreciated it until afterwards. 291 00:23:51,790.0582983 --> 00:23:57,440.0582983 You realise when you haven't got a strong prop or front row, a set of forwards when you're not winning the ball, why you're not winning the matches. 292 00:23:58,370.0582983 --> 00:24:01,10.0582983 But the glamorous positions you'd rely on your. 293 00:24:01,385.0582983 --> 00:24:10,475.0582983 If scrum-half or your fly-halves, they're the sort of the, flashy players who don't get any, don't get their kit dirty, they're ones who've got the brains and make the good decisions. 294 00:24:10,475.0582983 --> 00:24:13,895.0582983 So you need to have those people to make the right calls. 295 00:24:14,135.0582983 --> 00:24:25,985.0582983 But equally, you need hard and ugly forwards, to front up and win you the ball because, there's a famous saying, forwards decide who win the game and backs decide by how many. 296 00:24:26,690.0582983 --> 00:24:32,630.0582983 if you haven't got a forward pack that can win you the ball or, secure the game, then it doesn't matter how good your backs are, they're never gonna be able to play. 297 00:24:32,630.0582983 --> 00:24:39,560.0582983 So I would definitely say the forwards, although hopefully they won't see this and they won't know that I'm given that credit, that kudos. 298 00:24:39,560.0582983 --> 00:24:40,790.0582983 But yeah, the forwards are really important. 299 00:24:41,535.0582983 --> 00:24:42,375.0582983 That's very helpful. 300 00:24:42,375.0582983 --> 00:24:42,975.0582983 Thank you. 301 00:24:43,35.0582983 --> 00:24:54,157.3723438 And last question, what was your favorite moment of your career? I was very fortunate to have played in the European Cup final in 2000, 2001, at Stade Français in Paris, away from home. 302 00:24:54,747.3723438 --> 00:24:58,2.3723438 And I scored in that final, which was amasing. 303 00:24:58,22.3723438 --> 00:25:01,292.3723438 As a boy, my dream was to score the winning goal for Coventry City. 304 00:25:02,252.3723438 --> 00:25:08,972.3723438 All of a sudden I'm 20, 21 and I'm scoring a try in the European Cup final for Leicester Tigers against Stade Français. 305 00:25:09,362.3723438 --> 00:25:14,132.3723438 But not only that, I managed to score a second try in that match and it was the match winning try in injury time. 306 00:25:14,462.3723438 --> 00:25:21,452.3723438 So it's stuff that you dream of or certainly I dreamt of as a boy to be able to do that, with my team, with my mates was just. 307 00:25:22,112.3723438 --> 00:25:32,402.3723438 to this day, just amasing because when we see each other, we all laugh and smile about all the stuff that we did after that and all the me the hard work that we put in for that game. 308 00:25:32,402.3723438 --> 00:25:36,32.3723438 And yeah, I think that for me is a, real standout moment in my career. 309 00:25:36,952.3723438 --> 00:25:37,342.3723438 Wow. 310 00:25:37,372.3723438 --> 00:25:38,2.3723438 Thank you. 311 00:25:38,2.3723438 --> 00:25:41,632.3723438 And I really appreciate taking the time to be on podcast. 312 00:25:41,812.3723438 --> 00:25:48,280.7056771 And who would be the one person you'd recommend to be on my podcast? I wanna name somebody that's gonna say that Leon was an amasing player. 313 00:25:49,60.7056771 --> 00:25:49,660.7056771 and talk me up. 314 00:25:49,660.7056771 --> 00:25:51,220.7056771 I can't think of many people who are gonna say that. 315 00:25:51,520.7056771 --> 00:25:55,450.7056771 I would say, Geordan Murphy, because I've given him some kudos on this. 316 00:25:56,230.7056771 --> 00:25:57,110.7056771 or Lewis Moody. 317 00:25:57,560.7056771 --> 00:25:59,890.7056771 No, again, both great international players. 318 00:26:00,340.7056771 --> 00:26:04,210.7056771 two of my, two of my best mates and played for their country, play for the Lions. 319 00:26:05,20.7056771 --> 00:26:05,470.7056771 and they're good. 320 00:26:05,470.7056771 --> 00:26:09,415.7056771 They're good eggs and hopefully they won't share any stories about me where they say that I'm. 321 00:26:09,880.7056771 --> 00:26:11,350.7056771 I didn't do the things I said I've done. 322 00:26:12,160.7056771 --> 00:26:14,110.7056771 taught me up as their most favorite player. 323 00:26:14,985.7056771 --> 00:26:15,675.7056771 Thanks so much. 324 00:26:15,675.7056771 --> 00:26:17,925.7056771 I really appreciate taking your time to my podcast. 325 00:26:17,925.7056771 --> 00:26:18,855.7056771 Thank you, Leon. 326 00:26:19,180.7056771 --> 00:26:19,930.7056771 Hey, my pleasure. 327 00:26:19,930.7056771 --> 00:26:21,40.7056771 Great questions as well. 328 00:26:21,40.7056771 --> 00:26:21,790.7056771 Thank you very much. 329 00:26:21,820.7056771 --> 00:26:23,140.7056771 Trip down the memory lane for me. 330 00:26:23,140.7056771 --> 00:26:23,470.7056771 Thank you.