August 22, 2024 • 18 mins
|
This week's show is entitled, "Building, Managing and Leading High-Performance Teams" and my guest is Gina Hortatsos, Head of Marketing & Community at HackerOne.
Tune in to Learn About:
- What NOT to do to make the best decisions for your team
- How you can foster a culture of trust and authenticity
- Ways to empower your team and support their growth
- What you CAN do to transform your leadership approach
Read the transcript on the Heinz Marketing Blog or Watch the video
Matt interviews the best and brightest minds in sales and Marketing. If you would like to be a guest on Sales Pipeline Radio send an email to Sheena@heinzmarketing.com.
Sales Pipeline Radio was recently listed as a 30 Best Sales Management Podcasts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt (00:15):
Welcome everybody to another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz.
Very excited to have Gina withus today in the green room.
Yes, there's a green room.
We were both actually physicallyin together before we did this
several hundred miles apart.
I was joking because today we'regoing to talk about building,
managing high performance teams.
And sometimes just to kind of freak peopleout, I'll get on and say, okay, what
(00:36):
we're talking about today is zucchini.
It's that time of year when everybody'sout of ideas to do with the zucchini.
And I brought up a new recipe we useand you brought up one of my favorites.
So I think for those watchingtoday, this is our cold open.
Before we get into real talk,let's do real, real talk.
Explain your Genius Zucchini idea here.
Gina (00:54):
My Genius Zucchini is the simplest application of zucchini ever.
And you actually grate it onthe large holes of a box grater.
And you saute it in a littlebit of butter and olive oil.
You can leave the butterout if you're vegan.
Salt and pepper.
And if you like a little parm atthe end, just hit it with a little
bit of parm and it is perfect.
It's like the perfect vegetable side.
(01:16):
Everybody loves it.
Great texture, great flavor.
Matt (01:19):
It really is amazing.
I would say that because it cooks down,like you start with a large amount of
zucchini, you end up with a little bit.
Gina (01:25):
Ya, those really big ones and you can get the farmer's market for
like 75 cents because they kind of losetheir deliciousness when they're too
big, throw in the pot, grate it up.
So good.
Matt (01:35):
Or the ones in the plant that like the big leave is hiding it.
And then you get out there like crap.
It's like this big zucchini.
So, treat it like you'recaramelizing onions.
So nutritious and dense.
All right, Gina, welcometo Sales Pipeline Radio.
I think you, you mentioned jokinglywe could talk about zucchini all day.
I think maybe we should make a CMO CoffeeTalk where it's swipe file Friday recipes.
(01:57):
That might actually be fun.
But no, today we're going to talkabout high performance teams.
So first of all, if you are joiningus on Sales Pipeline Radio live today
as part of your work day and yourwork week, thank you for taking time.
I promise we're going to makethis more valuable than just
amazing zucchini recipes.
And if you are watching or listeninglive, you can be part of the show.
(02:17):
If you put a comment in onLinkedIn we're going to see it
here in our StreamYard platform.
We can respond to it.
We can put it up on screen.
We can talk about it.
So questions, answers, rebuttals, rants..
It's good.
We welcome all of it.
If you are listening or watchingon demand, thank you so much for
downloading and subscribing everyepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Past, present, future, alwaysavailable at salespipelineradio.com.
(02:40):
Today, super excited to have aHead of Marketing Community for
HackerOne, Gina Hortatsos joining us.
Gina we kind of did the cold openalready, but thank you for doing this.
Gina (02:51):
Thanks for having me and thank you for pronouncing my last
name the right way the first time.
Matt (02:55):
I will say that it was was a little bit terrifying moment because
I've known you for a long time and I'veseen your last name a million times
and I've only just called you Gina.
So from this point forward,it'll just be Gina.
There were so many different topicsthat we could cover as part of this.
And the thing we both kind ofcaught down to was just teams.
I've got a small consulting firm wherethe team is the product, like the
team is critical, but it's no lesscritical even if you're selling a
(03:19):
widget or a product or anything else.
Start with, over your career, whatare some of the lessons you've learned
about some critical elements of buildinga high performance quality team?
Gina (03:30):
Yeah.
I've been leading teams forabout a quarter of a century now.
And even now I make mistakes all the time.
So let's just first say we're all human.
We're doing the best we can.
And If any good can come out of mymistakes, it's providing them to
this audience so that, perhaps youwill avoid some of the mistakes
(03:52):
that I've made in the past.
So framing it that way, I think thething that keeps coming up that I still
have to work on is never make importantdecisions about org structure, hiring, or
shuffling work around teams if you're ina state of fear, overwhelm, or exhaustion.
(04:14):
Most of my worst mistakes thatI've made when it comes to building
leading high performing teams havebeen decisions I felt like I had
to make under duress of some kind.
Most of the time they were wrong andcaused a lot of pain and a lot of stress
that would probably would have beenunnecessary if I just had the managerial
(04:34):
courage to admit that I was not in aheadspace to be able to do these things.
I've made some bad hiring mistakes becauseI was just desperate to get someone in
the door and in seat because I neededa human to do stuff because I couldn't
take it anymore doing it all by myself.
So just as in every other situation inlife, I was talking to a friend of mine
(04:56):
that had to renovate an old house and shesaid, the worst decisions I made were the
ones that I made toward the end when Iwas so worn down and it just appeals here.
Huge lesson learned.
Sometimes when the decision is infront of you and you feel like you
(05:17):
have to make it and you're just notin the right headspace, if you can
possibly sleep on it, ask someone forhelp or otherwise get the support you
need so you don't have to either makethe decision alone or don't have to
make it when you're in that headspace.
I think that's the number one piece ofadvice that I wish someone had told me.
You know, oftentimes youhave windows for hiring.
(05:40):
You don't want to lose the budget.
Oftentimes there is some emergencything that happens that shifts your
market or your business and you've gotto figure out how to get the work done.
Putting yourself in a calmer stateand actually like trying to solve
for the issue in front of youand the place that you need to be
in your mind is the best thing.
I think another lesson that's kind ofrelated to that is the Importance of
(06:05):
just being super honest and transparent.
And I know we all say that, right?
But one of the things that I learnedas an emerging leader many years ago
is completely counter to what we tellpeople to do today, which is when I was
in the leadership training courses andsome of the companies I worked at, back
then the very prescriptive advice wereceived was don't show vulnerability,
(06:30):
especially if you're a woman.
Don't show weakness.
Don't show emotion.
Do not ask people about theirpersonal lives or if they're okay.
And under no circumstance, doyou tell anyone, do you offer
details about your personal life?
If you've got to go to a kid's doctor'sappointment, just don't say anything.
That was actually how we were trained.
And so one of the areas of developmentthat I continue to work on is still
(06:55):
unlearning that training and I have tosay that with, with modern workplaces
and the modern ethos around bringingyour authentic self to work, it has
been so freeing for someone who was,when my kids were little, I would have
loved to be able to share a little bitabout the stresses I was feeling and the
(07:18):
pressure and the guilt and everything.
I couldn't say anything back.
And now just being able to work withteam members and foster an environment
where they can feel like if they got togo to a school play or if they have to
take care of an aging parent, that theycan either tell me or not tell me why.
But having a high trust cultureand allowing them to feel like that
(07:40):
psychological safety of, I won'tbe judged if I do say anything.
And if I don't, you know,this person trusts me to get
my work done and I'm good.
That is worth its weight in gold.
It'll drive loyalty.
It'll drive a high trust culture thatmeans that we we kind of tease out
problems before they become huge issues.
And it's something that quite frankly,if I had that when I was in my younger
(08:02):
years, more junior in my leadershipcareer, I think I think I could have
could have done a lot with that concept.
Matt (08:09):
That's such great advice.
I really hope that people arelistening and taking notes.
And some of this is easier said than done,but when you've been through the ringer on
these, you realize how important that is.
And, you know, if you want tobuild a high performance team, you
need to have a high trust team.
You need to have a team that trustsyou as their manager and trust each
other that you've got your backs thatknowing that not every day is sunny.
(08:32):
Not every day is perfect.
That is hard to do alot of what we're doing.
If you're doing go to market, B2Bmarketing right, you're embracing the
suck sometimes of how complex it is.
You have a team that trusts each other.
The trust is foundational and itleads to the performance that you're
looking for, not the other way around.
Gina (08:51):
Exactly.
I agree.
I worked with a colleague a coupleyears ago who, I'm going to steal
this phrase from him, and he said, "Asleaders, our job Is to give people the
chance to do the best work of theirlives at the best place to do it."
And so yes, of course, there are a lotof leadership implications, but also
(09:12):
the workplace in which you choose to gowork has to also foster that culture.
We, as leaders, they don't work for us.
We work for them.
Your success, their success.
Matt (09:25):
Talking today on Sales Pipeline Radio with Gina Hortatsos.
Hey, I've said your nameagain, last name again.
She's the Head of Marketing Communityat HackerOne There's a bunch of follow
up questions I have, and you mentionedearlier, trying to create that calmer
state and put yourself in a calmer stateto make the right people decisions.
And that's not only when you hiresomeone, but also as you're managing
those people, you know, one on oneperformance reviews, professional
(09:48):
development on an ongoing basis, likebringing your full self and not bringing
the emotions that can cloud some of that.
It's one thing for you and Ito agree on this and for us to
work hard to be good at that.
How do you train and teach and empoweryour people to do that as well?
Right?
So it's not just you hiring someone.
You may have a direct report thatis desperate to fill a seat and
(10:10):
just needs that one body as well.
And how do you help enable peopleto have that same mentality?
Gina (10:17):
Yeah.
I think there are two thingsthat come to mind right away.
One is the framework of jobs to be done.
First of all, list out the stuffon a whiteboard, on a Miro board
of the work that has to be done,and then find the categorization.
(10:37):
If it's a backfill, that's onething, but I actually use hiring
opportunities as a way of potentiallyrethinking how we get work done.
By focusing on the jobs to be done,it allows you to stick a pin in the
emotional people part of it so thatyou can have a very clear head on the
attributes of the person you need todo that body of work before you then
(11:01):
start slotting people in to that spot.
So using that jobs to be done frameworkand making sure that hiring manager
has gone through that exercise.
So they're crystal, crystal clear,not only about the work to be done,
but what the interlocks are and thecritical dependencies of that body of
work with other teams and other people.
The second thing I would say isutilize a goal setting methodology.
(11:25):
At HackerOne, we use the OKR methodology.
I know a lot of companies use V2MOM.
There are other goalsetting methodologies.
I don't have a lot ofprescription on what that is.
But whatever that goal settingmethodology is, make sure you allow
alignment across teams and up and down.
So we have corporate level objectivesand key results, departmental level
(11:46):
ones, and then we can use those to helpindividuals or individual teams set goals
so that you can see clear alignment.
Both up and down and across.
So for focus, prioritization, performancemanagement, I know technically in OKR
land, you're supposed to decouple OKRsfrom performance management, but it's
(12:06):
kind of hard to, because if you'retalking about work that has to be done
and measuring the progress of thatwork having an OKR method, some kind of
goal setting methodology is, again veryeffective in empowering managers to have
those conversations with a clear head andalso with compassion to listen to whatever
(12:27):
might be happening on the other end.
Matt (12:30):
Yeah.
I love that.
We use a methodology called EOS torun our business, has a similar,
what they call rocks for the quarter.
One of the things I love about it is itencourages individual accountability.
So each rock, with each thingyou're gonna get done, there
is one person that owns that.
So individual accountability,but collective problem solving.
So if your rock is off track forthe quarter, you will bring that
(12:52):
to the group not so that they say,boy, you suck, but you bring it
to say, I need help with this.
So other people in the room who don'thave accountability for that can provide
ideas and guidance and help you brainstormin a way that doesn't make you feel bad.
It doesn't say like you don't haveyour shit together, but it allows
for the clear accountability.
I own this, but I know that theteam has my back if I need help.
Gina (13:13):
Yes.
And the nature of our work is such that nowork stream can really be fully exectued
without some interlock with other teams.
One thing I talk to my leaders about a lotis solve for the problem, not the person.
Because oftentimes if something getsescalated, it might be brought to you
(13:34):
with the phrasing around, like, so andso said this in a meeting or so and so
I have a critical dependency with suchand such team and they haven't delivered.
By doing a little bit of five whyroot cause analysis, you don't
even have to ask the full five.
Sometimes you can get it in two or three.
You can actually tease out the rootcause of the problem, which might
(13:56):
have very little to do with a person'sindividual performance, drive or ability.
Matt (14:02):
Right, and it allows the team to coalesce a little bit, right?
A high trust team wants to succeed andwants their peers to succeed as well.
And even if I don't have expertiseor accountability in something,
because of that, I might have someright angle thinking or idea that
could unlock helping with that andI think to create that culture...
(14:26):
you used words vulnerability, empathy,grace, to have that team sport
mentality to doing this, to say eachof us individually has things we
need to achieve and be accountablefor, but we will not be successful
unless we all are in this together.
You have to really reinforce thatenvironment and show that you're going
to do it when on good days and bad.
Gina (14:48):
Agreed.
I also think that particularly ifyou work in a small business or
startup life, there is a gravitationalpull because we're very fast paced.
There's a lot of scope creep becauseour business pivots all the time
and we have to be able to respond.
It's very tempting to reallywant to just circle the wagons.
(15:10):
And that's when silos happen becausepeople just draw a box around their job.
They're like, I've got so much to do.
I can only think about this right now.
I do think it's a leader's responsibility.
In fact, a lot of the responsibility,like time and space to think about
and help teams create space forhaving those conversations so that
(15:30):
when a problem is brought to thegroup, there is not a reaction of
like, well, that's your problem.
You have to go fix it because I don'thave time to deal with that right now.
That is a very commonproblem in startup life.
I do think that the combination ofhaving goals and a high trust culture,
the goals will help to guide focus andprioritization and the high trust culture
(15:53):
will allow for people to feel safein bringing up stuff without worrying
about being judged or being viewed asincompetent, all those ingredients have
to exist or the whole thing doesn't work.
Matt (16:04):
Absolutely right.
But every day a well meaningperson becomes a manager of
people for the first time.
What are some recommendations you havefor them in terms of either lessons or
where to go learn or who to learn from?
We all make mistakes as leaders allthe time, but if someone wants to
really invest in themselves as a leaderof people, what do you recommend?
Gina (16:26):
I recommend leaning on your peer group first.
And showing that vulnerabilityyourself with your team.
Leading by example and bymodeling is very important.
Asking for help when you need it.
Find a peer group.
We have the CMO Coffee Talk community.
There are a few other communitiesout there for our group, but no
matter what job you're in, there aresome amazing communities out there.
(16:49):
Maria Ross is an author.
She just released her second book but herfirst book is called The Empathy Edge.
I think that's a great read.
Leaders need to operate withcompassion first because it is
the key route to building andsustaining a high trust culture
which creates a high performing team.
So get your read on and never stoplearning and never stop being curious.
Matt (17:10):
Yeah, I think that last point is so important.
Be a regular student and know that whatyou have learned to do will evolve.
The workplaces will evolve.
What's expected will evolve.
And to your point, what we learnedabout effective management and
leadership, 20, 25 years ago...
I remember working at a PR firm and wehad Microsoft was one of our biggest
(17:31):
clients and going at meetings atMicrosoft were terrible because there
was always yelling, they yelled at us.
They yelled at each other.
And you get like, Isthis what work is like?
And so you get a sense ofmaybe this is what it's like.
It's mean and so like, it's not like workis going to be fun, but like, there's
a better environment you can create.
And you manage one person or 20 or 2000,you have an opportunity to influence
(17:54):
that wherever you're working today.
Gina (17:55):
It's such a gift.
Matt (17:57):
Gina, thank you so much for doing this.
If people want to learn more about you,can keep in touch with you, get additional
zucchini advice, like where can they go?
They can go to my LinkedIn profile,Gina Hortatsos, just search for me.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on there.
Well, thank you again for doing this.
Thank you to all of you who havebeen watching live and on demand.
(18:17):
We'll see you next weekon Sales Pipeline Radio.
Gina (18:19):
Take care.
Bye.
Welcome everybody to another episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz.
Very excited to have Gina withus today in the green room.
Yes, there's a green room.
We were both actually physicallyin together before we did this
several hundred miles apart.
I was joking because today we'regoing to talk about building,
managing high performance teams.
And sometimes just to kind of freak peopleout, I'll get on and say, okay, what
(00:36):
we're talking about today is zucchini.
It's that time of year when everybody'sout of ideas to do with the zucchini.
And I brought up a new recipe we useand you brought up one of my favorites.
So I think for those watchingtoday, this is our cold open.
Before we get into real talk,let's do real, real talk.
Explain your Genius Zucchini idea here.
Gina (00:54):
My Genius Zucchini is the simplest application of zucchini ever.
And you actually grate it onthe large holes of a box grater.
And you saute it in a littlebit of butter and olive oil.
You can leave the butterout if you're vegan.
Salt and pepper.
And if you like a little parm atthe end, just hit it with a little
bit of parm and it is perfect.
It's like the perfect vegetable side.
(01:16):
Everybody loves it.
Great texture, great flavor.
Matt (01:19):
It really is amazing.
I would say that because it cooks down,like you start with a large amount of
zucchini, you end up with a little bit.
Gina (01:25):
Ya, those really big ones and you can get the farmer's market for
like 75 cents because they kind of losetheir deliciousness when they're too
big, throw in the pot, grate it up.
So good.
Matt (01:35):
Or the ones in the plant that like the big leave is hiding it.
And then you get out there like crap.
It's like this big zucchini.
So, treat it like you'recaramelizing onions.
So nutritious and dense.
All right, Gina, welcometo Sales Pipeline Radio.
I think you, you mentioned jokinglywe could talk about zucchini all day.
I think maybe we should make a CMO CoffeeTalk where it's swipe file Friday recipes.
(01:57):
That might actually be fun.
But no, today we're going to talkabout high performance teams.
So first of all, if you are joiningus on Sales Pipeline Radio live today
as part of your work day and yourwork week, thank you for taking time.
I promise we're going to makethis more valuable than just
amazing zucchini recipes.
And if you are watching or listeninglive, you can be part of the show.
(02:17):
If you put a comment in onLinkedIn we're going to see it
here in our StreamYard platform.
We can respond to it.
We can put it up on screen.
We can talk about it.
So questions, answers, rebuttals, rants..
It's good.
We welcome all of it.
If you are listening or watchingon demand, thank you so much for
downloading and subscribing everyepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Past, present, future, alwaysavailable at salespipelineradio.com.
(02:40):
Today, super excited to have aHead of Marketing Community for
HackerOne, Gina Hortatsos joining us.
Gina we kind of did the cold openalready, but thank you for doing this.
Gina (02:51):
Thanks for having me and thank you for pronouncing my last
name the right way the first time.
Matt (02:55):
I will say that it was was a little bit terrifying moment because
I've known you for a long time and I'veseen your last name a million times
and I've only just called you Gina.
So from this point forward,it'll just be Gina.
There were so many different topicsthat we could cover as part of this.
And the thing we both kind ofcaught down to was just teams.
I've got a small consulting firm wherethe team is the product, like the
team is critical, but it's no lesscritical even if you're selling a
(03:19):
widget or a product or anything else.
Start with, over your career, whatare some of the lessons you've learned
about some critical elements of buildinga high performance quality team?
Gina (03:30):
Yeah.
I've been leading teams forabout a quarter of a century now.
And even now I make mistakes all the time.
So let's just first say we're all human.
We're doing the best we can.
And If any good can come out of mymistakes, it's providing them to
this audience so that, perhaps youwill avoid some of the mistakes
(03:52):
that I've made in the past.
So framing it that way, I think thething that keeps coming up that I still
have to work on is never make importantdecisions about org structure, hiring, or
shuffling work around teams if you're ina state of fear, overwhelm, or exhaustion.
(04:14):
Most of my worst mistakes thatI've made when it comes to building
leading high performing teams havebeen decisions I felt like I had
to make under duress of some kind.
Most of the time they were wrong andcaused a lot of pain and a lot of stress
that would probably would have beenunnecessary if I just had the managerial
(04:34):
courage to admit that I was not in aheadspace to be able to do these things.
I've made some bad hiring mistakes becauseI was just desperate to get someone in
the door and in seat because I neededa human to do stuff because I couldn't
take it anymore doing it all by myself.
So just as in every other situation inlife, I was talking to a friend of mine
(04:56):
that had to renovate an old house and shesaid, the worst decisions I made were the
ones that I made toward the end when Iwas so worn down and it just appeals here.
Huge lesson learned.
Sometimes when the decision is infront of you and you feel like you
(05:17):
have to make it and you're just notin the right headspace, if you can
possibly sleep on it, ask someone forhelp or otherwise get the support you
need so you don't have to either makethe decision alone or don't have to
make it when you're in that headspace.
I think that's the number one piece ofadvice that I wish someone had told me.
You know, oftentimes youhave windows for hiring.
(05:40):
You don't want to lose the budget.
Oftentimes there is some emergencything that happens that shifts your
market or your business and you've gotto figure out how to get the work done.
Putting yourself in a calmer stateand actually like trying to solve
for the issue in front of youand the place that you need to be
in your mind is the best thing.
I think another lesson that's kind ofrelated to that is the Importance of
(06:05):
just being super honest and transparent.
And I know we all say that, right?
But one of the things that I learnedas an emerging leader many years ago
is completely counter to what we tellpeople to do today, which is when I was
in the leadership training courses andsome of the companies I worked at, back
then the very prescriptive advice wereceived was don't show vulnerability,
(06:30):
especially if you're a woman.
Don't show weakness.
Don't show emotion.
Do not ask people about theirpersonal lives or if they're okay.
And under no circumstance, doyou tell anyone, do you offer
details about your personal life?
If you've got to go to a kid's doctor'sappointment, just don't say anything.
That was actually how we were trained.
And so one of the areas of developmentthat I continue to work on is still
(06:55):
unlearning that training and I have tosay that with, with modern workplaces
and the modern ethos around bringingyour authentic self to work, it has
been so freeing for someone who was,when my kids were little, I would have
loved to be able to share a little bitabout the stresses I was feeling and the
(07:18):
pressure and the guilt and everything.
I couldn't say anything back.
And now just being able to work withteam members and foster an environment
where they can feel like if they got togo to a school play or if they have to
take care of an aging parent, that theycan either tell me or not tell me why.
But having a high trust cultureand allowing them to feel like that
(07:40):
psychological safety of, I won'tbe judged if I do say anything.
And if I don't, you know,this person trusts me to get
my work done and I'm good.
That is worth its weight in gold.
It'll drive loyalty.
It'll drive a high trust culture thatmeans that we we kind of tease out
problems before they become huge issues.
And it's something that quite frankly,if I had that when I was in my younger
(08:02):
years, more junior in my leadershipcareer, I think I think I could have
could have done a lot with that concept.
Matt (08:09):
That's such great advice.
I really hope that people arelistening and taking notes.
And some of this is easier said than done,but when you've been through the ringer on
these, you realize how important that is.
And, you know, if you want tobuild a high performance team, you
need to have a high trust team.
You need to have a team that trustsyou as their manager and trust each
other that you've got your backs thatknowing that not every day is sunny.
(08:32):
Not every day is perfect.
That is hard to do alot of what we're doing.
If you're doing go to market, B2Bmarketing right, you're embracing the
suck sometimes of how complex it is.
You have a team that trusts each other.
The trust is foundational and itleads to the performance that you're
looking for, not the other way around.
Gina (08:51):
Exactly.
I agree.
I worked with a colleague a coupleyears ago who, I'm going to steal
this phrase from him, and he said, "Asleaders, our job Is to give people the
chance to do the best work of theirlives at the best place to do it."
And so yes, of course, there are a lotof leadership implications, but also
(09:12):
the workplace in which you choose to gowork has to also foster that culture.
We, as leaders, they don't work for us.
We work for them.
Your success, their success.
Matt (09:25):
Talking today on Sales Pipeline Radio with Gina Hortatsos.
Hey, I've said your nameagain, last name again.
She's the Head of Marketing Communityat HackerOne There's a bunch of follow
up questions I have, and you mentionedearlier, trying to create that calmer
state and put yourself in a calmer stateto make the right people decisions.
And that's not only when you hiresomeone, but also as you're managing
those people, you know, one on oneperformance reviews, professional
(09:48):
development on an ongoing basis, likebringing your full self and not bringing
the emotions that can cloud some of that.
It's one thing for you and Ito agree on this and for us to
work hard to be good at that.
How do you train and teach and empoweryour people to do that as well?
Right?
So it's not just you hiring someone.
You may have a direct report thatis desperate to fill a seat and
(10:10):
just needs that one body as well.
And how do you help enable peopleto have that same mentality?
Gina (10:17):
Yeah.
I think there are two thingsthat come to mind right away.
One is the framework of jobs to be done.
First of all, list out the stuffon a whiteboard, on a Miro board
of the work that has to be done,and then find the categorization.
(10:37):
If it's a backfill, that's onething, but I actually use hiring
opportunities as a way of potentiallyrethinking how we get work done.
By focusing on the jobs to be done,it allows you to stick a pin in the
emotional people part of it so thatyou can have a very clear head on the
attributes of the person you need todo that body of work before you then
(11:01):
start slotting people in to that spot.
So using that jobs to be done frameworkand making sure that hiring manager
has gone through that exercise.
So they're crystal, crystal clear,not only about the work to be done,
but what the interlocks are and thecritical dependencies of that body of
work with other teams and other people.
The second thing I would say isutilize a goal setting methodology.
(11:25):
At HackerOne, we use the OKR methodology.
I know a lot of companies use V2MOM.
There are other goalsetting methodologies.
I don't have a lot ofprescription on what that is.
But whatever that goal settingmethodology is, make sure you allow
alignment across teams and up and down.
So we have corporate level objectivesand key results, departmental level
(11:46):
ones, and then we can use those to helpindividuals or individual teams set goals
so that you can see clear alignment.
Both up and down and across.
So for focus, prioritization, performancemanagement, I know technically in OKR
land, you're supposed to decouple OKRsfrom performance management, but it's
(12:06):
kind of hard to, because if you'retalking about work that has to be done
and measuring the progress of thatwork having an OKR method, some kind of
goal setting methodology is, again veryeffective in empowering managers to have
those conversations with a clear head andalso with compassion to listen to whatever
(12:27):
might be happening on the other end.
Matt (12:30):
Yeah.
I love that.
We use a methodology called EOS torun our business, has a similar,
what they call rocks for the quarter.
One of the things I love about it is itencourages individual accountability.
So each rock, with each thingyou're gonna get done, there
is one person that owns that.
So individual accountability,but collective problem solving.
So if your rock is off track forthe quarter, you will bring that
(12:52):
to the group not so that they say,boy, you suck, but you bring it
to say, I need help with this.
So other people in the room who don'thave accountability for that can provide
ideas and guidance and help you brainstormin a way that doesn't make you feel bad.
It doesn't say like you don't haveyour shit together, but it allows
for the clear accountability.
I own this, but I know that theteam has my back if I need help.
Gina (13:13):
Yes.
And the nature of our work is such that nowork stream can really be fully exectued
without some interlock with other teams.
One thing I talk to my leaders about a lotis solve for the problem, not the person.
Because oftentimes if something getsescalated, it might be brought to you
(13:34):
with the phrasing around, like, so andso said this in a meeting or so and so
I have a critical dependency with suchand such team and they haven't delivered.
By doing a little bit of five whyroot cause analysis, you don't
even have to ask the full five.
Sometimes you can get it in two or three.
You can actually tease out the rootcause of the problem, which might
(13:56):
have very little to do with a person'sindividual performance, drive or ability.
Matt (14:02):
Right, and it allows the team to coalesce a little bit, right?
A high trust team wants to succeed andwants their peers to succeed as well.
And even if I don't have expertiseor accountability in something,
because of that, I might have someright angle thinking or idea that
could unlock helping with that andI think to create that culture...
(14:26):
you used words vulnerability, empathy,grace, to have that team sport
mentality to doing this, to say eachof us individually has things we
need to achieve and be accountablefor, but we will not be successful
unless we all are in this together.
You have to really reinforce thatenvironment and show that you're going
to do it when on good days and bad.
Gina (14:48):
Agreed.
I also think that particularly ifyou work in a small business or
startup life, there is a gravitationalpull because we're very fast paced.
There's a lot of scope creep becauseour business pivots all the time
and we have to be able to respond.
It's very tempting to reallywant to just circle the wagons.
(15:10):
And that's when silos happen becausepeople just draw a box around their job.
They're like, I've got so much to do.
I can only think about this right now.
I do think it's a leader's responsibility.
In fact, a lot of the responsibility,like time and space to think about
and help teams create space forhaving those conversations so that
(15:30):
when a problem is brought to thegroup, there is not a reaction of
like, well, that's your problem.
You have to go fix it because I don'thave time to deal with that right now.
That is a very commonproblem in startup life.
I do think that the combination ofhaving goals and a high trust culture,
the goals will help to guide focus andprioritization and the high trust culture
(15:53):
will allow for people to feel safein bringing up stuff without worrying
about being judged or being viewed asincompetent, all those ingredients have
to exist or the whole thing doesn't work.
Matt (16:04):
Absolutely right.
But every day a well meaningperson becomes a manager of
people for the first time.
What are some recommendations you havefor them in terms of either lessons or
where to go learn or who to learn from?
We all make mistakes as leaders allthe time, but if someone wants to
really invest in themselves as a leaderof people, what do you recommend?
Gina (16:26):
I recommend leaning on your peer group first.
And showing that vulnerabilityyourself with your team.
Leading by example and bymodeling is very important.
Asking for help when you need it.
Find a peer group.
We have the CMO Coffee Talk community.
There are a few other communitiesout there for our group, but no
matter what job you're in, there aresome amazing communities out there.
(16:49):
Maria Ross is an author.
She just released her second book but herfirst book is called The Empathy Edge.
I think that's a great read.
Leaders need to operate withcompassion first because it is
the key route to building andsustaining a high trust culture
which creates a high performing team.
So get your read on and never stoplearning and never stop being curious.
Matt (17:10):
Yeah, I think that last point is so important.
Be a regular student and know that whatyou have learned to do will evolve.
The workplaces will evolve.
What's expected will evolve.
And to your point, what we learnedabout effective management and
leadership, 20, 25 years ago...
I remember working at a PR firm and wehad Microsoft was one of our biggest
(17:31):
clients and going at meetings atMicrosoft were terrible because there
was always yelling, they yelled at us.
They yelled at each other.
And you get like, Isthis what work is like?
And so you get a sense ofmaybe this is what it's like.
It's mean and so like, it's not like workis going to be fun, but like, there's
a better environment you can create.
And you manage one person or 20 or 2000,you have an opportunity to influence
(17:54):
that wherever you're working today.
Gina (17:55):
It's such a gift.
Matt (17:57):
Gina, thank you so much for doing this.
If people want to learn more about you,can keep in touch with you, get additional
zucchini advice, like where can they go?
They can go to my LinkedIn profile,Gina Hortatsos, just search for me.
I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on there.
Well, thank you again for doing this.
Thank you to all of you who havebeen watching live and on demand.
(18:17):
We'll see you next weekon Sales Pipeline Radio.
Gina (18:19):
Take care.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com