September 26, 2024 • 20 mins
This week's show is entitled, "How Data and Storytelling Impacts All of Sales, Brand and Marketing" and my guest is Mark Nardone, CMO at PAN.
Tune in to Learn:
- How storytelling differentiates brands, builds trust, and creates emotional connections with customers in B2B
- Why companies are reinvesting in storytelling to foster deeper engagement and grow their pipeline
- How and why data is essential for crafting personalized stories that resonate more effectively
- How successful businesses balance long-term branding with short-term demand generation
- The role AI plays in helping companies scale personalized stories for a broad audience
Listen Now | Watch the video HERE | Read the Transcript on the Heinz Marketing Blog.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt (00:17):
All right.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
So happy to have you here.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz, as wecontinue to roll along here every week,
every Thursday, live at 11:30 Pacific,2:30 Eastern, thank you so much for
making this part of your day, part ofyour work day, part of your work week.
We're here, Mark, almost theend of the month, end of the
week, end of the quarter.
So for those of you grinding in andout trying to hit your number, best of
(00:38):
luck over the next two and a half days.
Plenty of time, plenty of timeto bring in those numbers.
If you're watching or listeningon demand, thank you so much for
downloading, for subscribing.
Every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio,always available past, present, and
future at www.salespipelineradio.com.
Today, super excited to have MarkNardone, he's the Chief Marketing
Officer for Pan Communications.
(00:59):
And thanks for being here, man.
Mark (01:01):
Yeah, no problem.
I think the hair was probably maybea little bit darker the last time
I was on, but that's all right.
Matt (01:05):
Mine was probably still non existent.
So it's all good.
We continue to age.
One of my favorite sayings now is theolder I get and the more mistakes I
make and then be able to share somethingthat is kind of an experience share
or harder and less than that I wishyounger Matt would have paid more
attention to, or realized was a truth.
That's a whole other episode,but so many different angles we
could take together on this...
(01:26):
But I think this concept ofstorytelling is super interesting to me.
And if you think about the differentways we think about storytelling, the
story we tell around our brand, thestory we tell our prospects to have to
hopefully earn some of their attention...
It is budget season as we recordthis so the story we tell when
we're asking for money, right?
Instead of giving a laundry list of likewhere we're going to go spend money,
(01:46):
what's the story you're telling aboutwhat you are buying for the organization?
And combine that with increased evidenceand research, I'm now seeing that Dems
indicates that B2B brands are going toreinvest or grow their investment in brand
in 2025 and what is brand, if not a story?
So we'd love to hear from yourperspective-- first of all, for the
(02:07):
people that don't know you and don'tknow Pan, do a quick introduction
there and then how are you thinkingabout storytelling and brand as we
start thinking about next year already?
Mark (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So just for the individuals thatdon't know us, Pan Communications--
actually Pan now, we rebrandeda little while ago to just Pan.
Kind of started off in the PR industry asan agency and then moved into the brand
to demand kind of side of the business.
We focus a lot on telling really greatstories working with B2B tech comPanies
and healthcare firms as well on everythingat top of funnel to middle of funnel.
(02:36):
Starting to get pulled down to thebottom of funnel a little bit more, but.
From PR to content marketing tosocial, a lot of digital activation.
So about 240 employees spread acrossa few different offices globally.
So that's who we are in a nutshell.
Been around for 30 years.
Story.
I will tell you it's important and it'sinteresting because what we're seeing
(02:57):
on our end being in the services side ofthe industry as well as representing a
lot of tech, tech brands is second halfof the year, we've seen an absolute kind
of reverse a pattern and double downon inside of brand and brand awareness.
Some of that has to do with the factthat I think there was just a lot of kind
of like hesitation and a little bit ofconcern in the first half of the year.
(03:17):
So I think we're kind of seeing maybea little bit of the ricochet of second
half finish strong, set brand up wellfor kind of beginning parts of 2025.
And then I think we're just alsoseeing just marketers and brands
moving to decision a lot quicker.
I think when you and I last chatted,Matt, earlier this year, there was
just a lot of issues within pipelines,whether it was the pauses, the delays,
(03:40):
a lot of movements taking place.
And so what comes out of that naturally isthe ability for brands to kind of really,
really hone into story and narrative,what that looks like, how do they begin
it, what does it all kind of encompass?
One of the things that you startedtalking about was obviously what brand
means for business, for product, butalso from an experience standpoint.
(04:00):
And I think that's where we're startingto see more of the brand storytelling
start to come to the forefront, whichis the experience that customers and the
prospects and that industry has both withyour brand and with your executive team.
So I think it's a critical componentto what's happening right now.
So no surprise on, on brand investment.
Matt (04:16):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Yesterday, I was in Palo Altofor our client's-- what they
call a marketing therapy session.
We had about 70 B2Bmarketers in for lunch.
And we talked about brandand demand together.
We talked about this conceptof investing in brand.
And it was fascinating because a lot ofthe smaller comPanies in the room said,
we can't afford to invest in brand.
And the bigger comPanies, includingsome of the Panelists said,
we can't afford not to, right?
(04:37):
So I think there's this interestingdichotomy of how different comPanies,
perhaps, based on different sizesor even maybe just maturity of the
comPany, think about and acceptthe role of brand in driving, not
awareness, but having a direct impacton pipeline and revenue as well.
Mark (04:53):
No question about it.
And I think one of the one of themisperceptions out there is based on
size of brand determines obviously thelevers of investment, budget aside,
percentage of investment that you'remaking within some of these activities.
We started our agency in theemergent growth, moved to mid
to late stage types of brands.
So what we start to see is a lot of theformula that emerging growth package, they
(05:17):
put a lot of importance on brand, right?
They put a ton on top of funnel awarenessand what that all means around brand.
Mid stage gets a bit morecomfortable with that, right?
There's a lot of things that go onwith regards to storytelling and brand.
At the mid stage to late stage,there's a lot of vertical solutions--
you might be moving from singleproduct to multiple product.
You've got business in the US,you're starting to exPand globally.
(05:39):
There's a lot of things your executiveteam now moves from maybe one single
subject matter expert to four, five,six different subject matter experts.
Just think about all of those thingsthat go on in that kind of equation
and now wrap story into that.
And you might have multiple stories goingat once, but where the biggest concern
on our end and from a brand standpointis the inconsistency in telling story
(06:02):
across individuals through product,through purpose, through employees;
that becomes a major driving factorin how do you streamline everything?
How do you coordinate withteams so that you're all aligned
to the focus of the business?
And sometimes that goesoff rails quickly, Matt.
Matt (06:18):
It does.
And I think this is why I think it'simportant for us to talk about brand
in the context of storytelling here.
Because if you say you can't afford toinvest in brand, what I think some people
say is I don't have budget for that.
And brand is not billboards on 101 inthe valley, but brand is not putting
your logo on the side of a race car.
If you are good at nailing a story, astory that matters to your customer,
(06:41):
a story that aligns with and orenhances their narrative, a story
you can be consistent about sharingacross your comPany and across your
channels, a good story can take on alife of its own and can mitigate some
of the costs of having to buy space.
Like you can earn the space in yourcustomer's mind with a better story..
(07:03):
And I know I'm preaching to the choirhere, I don't know if you got an
example or two to showcase this is atthe heart of building a strong brand.
Mark (07:08):
Oh, there's no doubt.
So a couple of thingsI'll kind of address here.
One is, brands sometimes make themistake of going too quickly for the
growth opportunity and missing theopportunity that's right in front of them.
And I get that growth is the number onedriving factor behind, of course, business
and brand, but there's so much morepotential at times sitting in front of
(07:29):
them with the market that they're focusedin on and they start to dilute their value
proposition in that market and start togo off into these other growth areas.
And sometimes that might be too soon.
And sometimes that just might not bethe perfect timing, just in general.
So, as we get into that, it's becomea driving factor around why so many
clients right now and brands are talkingabout visiting messaging positioning.
(07:52):
I don't know about you, Matt, but we'reworking with a lot of brands where we're
either starting to do a refinement messagepositioning, or we're starting to really
start from scratch and rebuild the messagepositioning architecture, which then
starts to really drive a lot of differentbrand narratives coming out of that.
And I think that for brands today, andthis is a perfect time of year to talk
(08:14):
about this, Matt-- as you evaluatepipeline, as you evaluate what's going
on within sales, as you think abouttitles that are impacting decisions and
or delaying decisions, as you just thinkabout the committees that are going
on and what that all looks like, takethe time to start to audit and assess
what's happening with the new landscape.
What are the competitors doing?
(08:34):
What is everybody else looking likefrom an assessment and an audit?
And take some of that research andstart to build what could be just
a great moment in time for messageand positioning beginning in 2025.
You know, brands sometimes today justmake the mistake that our message is good.
You know, it's been in market for a year.
We don't need to tweak it.
We don't need to adjust it.
That's nonsense.
(08:55):
It's got to be in real time.
Matt (08:57):
Well, you may be comfortable with your message, but remember
that your message does not sitin isolation in the market.
Your message is sitting alongside andcompeting with countless other messages
for the finite amount of time that yourprospects and your customers and the
decision makers of their organizationshave, there is no good enough.
And I think you got to continue tolook for the ways to improve on that.
(09:18):
Talking today on Sales PipelineRadio with Mark Nardone.
He's the CMO, ChiefMarketing Officer for Pan.
And we're talking about the importanceof storytelling as a component of
building and managing a strong brand.
One of the other topics we coveredyesterday at the Palo Alto event was
the balance between brand and demand.
And thinking about this sometimes inlike just a two by two matrix, right?
brand and demand on one axis short termand long term on the other and I tend
(09:40):
to think like short term maybe three tosix months long term six months to two
years plus-- a lot of comPanies veryworried about the short term impact and
said, okay, it's the month, end of thequarter, I need to invest in demand.
And too often that short termneed to drive demand precludes
people from doing the buildingblocks of building brand as well.
I believe there are things you cando short and long term to build
(10:02):
that brand and to tell that story.
You mentioned starting with justhaving a fundamentally better story
and better message, but what aresome of the things that you see
comPanies doing well organically,even short term to start to build the
foundation of a long term strong brand?
Mark (10:18):
Yeah, that's a great question.
As we think through story and from thebrand to demand connection that we're
talking about here, how to story-aligneeverywhere throughout the journey of
a customer coming into the pipeline.
What does that look like?
How do you think of tone, pain point,necessity, and level of importance
as they're coming into the pipeline.
I think some of the things we'restarting to see really, really resonate
(10:41):
well is, I mean, this is going to beno surprise to everybody listening,
but data-- data and research.
I mean we're starting to see some really,really great impact with regards to
how story moves through data, how datareverses and tells a really good story.
How do you analyze the audienceof the prospector or the customer
that you're working with?
And walk in their shoes with regards to,I know Matt's a major marketer out there.
(11:04):
He does a lot of sales.
What type of data can I feed you,Matt that kind of gets you to kind
of, you know, act with some impact?
So we're looking at that through thelens of short term and long term.
So when I think about data inparticular, if we're pulling out this
one example, sometimes it's just,Hey, give me some of the moments
that matter in market right now.
Like what's happening withinthe next month to two months?
How can we jump on a lot of cooltrending topics to align data so that
(11:28):
we're able to drive a lot of interestingbrand awareness, but we're also then
able to bring that journey for themto come into an experience on our
site or in this section of our dataand insight section or hub section
that says, ha, now I'm all of a suddenlooking at annual research programs.
Now I'm looking atquarterly research reports.
They're giving me full step In themoment, what's happening this month
(11:49):
with regards to the reaction andmarkets all the way-- give me some more
premium research that's driving this.
So data and research is reallyimportant and how that moves your
story out to media is important.
How that goes across digitalchannels is really important.
How is it sales uses thatfrom an enablement standpoint,
decks and everything like that.
They just become one of our bestoptions with regards to putting out some
conversations and communication to market.
Matt (12:11):
I'd go as far as to say that I think data may be replacing media as
the coin of the realm for marketersin terms of creating differentiation
and driving, not just a timeliness,but timeliness with context.
Can you talk a little bit about howintent signals and the data that you
have available to you not only helpsyou shape the story, but also reach
the right person at the right timewith the story that's relevant to them?
Mark (12:31):
Yeah.
So let's just use Pan fora quick example, right?
We've got a few different reportsthat we put out, ones around
the Brand Experience Report.
It's all the experience that consumers andcustomers in general having with brand.
That's one angle that we go out with.
The other area we look intocoming out of that is AI.
We might look at sector experience aroundsecurity and, or healthcare, and how do
(12:52):
we use data to go into specific sectors?
And then you look at as we see intent,and we see these triggers of engagement
we're having and some of just the 360conversation we've got coming back
around, many marketers that are comingeven and looking at PAN are saying
how do I know what I'm doing is right?
Am I measuring the right areas?
(13:13):
Is my program performingwhere it should be?
So now all of a sudden you see this otherangle of content we come out with just
reality check and reality check allowsa marketer to look and say here's the
reality check of what's happening today,both with the skillset that I have in
my department, as well as the activationprograms that I have behind brand.
And it gives them this really coolconnector around brand experience
(13:34):
then over to the reality check.
And then the output for that mightbe-- five step guide to really
looking at 2025 planning initiatives.
How do you measure appropriately?
So you go long termbrand experience report.
Short term, we're looking at a quarterwhere we know we're recapping a year.
Measurement becomes really, reallycritical because they need to look back
and look forward around how their programsare performing in market right now.
(13:58):
And we start to put contentthat's relevant to the pain point
that they might be experiencingas they flow through a quarter.
That's how we treat a lot of the dataand a lot of a lot of the content
that we're looking at by quarter.
Matt (14:10):
Well, it gets even more interesting as you think about the
advancement of AI and what that'sgoing to enable to activate some
of those stories in that content.
We've talked for years aboutbuilding our white papers and our
ultimate guides to this and that.
And we spend a ton of timewriting something and then
producing it for everybody.
Well, what if you couldtake your core story?
What if you could take your core dataand create a custom ultimate guide
(14:31):
for each and every individual, letalone account, let alone industry,
because you can customize the messageto them and create something that is
intensely, highly relevant on a oneon one basis with near infinite scale?
Mark (14:44):
I have a couple of different point of views on this.
Right?
I think right now from an AI perspectiveaugmenting human to AI capabilities
is really, really important.
I think it's really, reallyimportant to remain transparent.
100%.
I think we're seeing a lot ofricochet around the ethics of AI.
I was talking to somebody on the brandside last week and a team that they
(15:06):
were using in a specific region wasputting out so much AI that the fact
checking now came back to them andthey started to get hit on reputation.
So you have to be really careful in ourworld, especially from creators, right?
How are we using AI inour everyday function?
I always like to tell my team just ingeneral, use it as a thought starter
to think through the ideas, use it as atest bed on how that idea is performing,
(15:28):
but please make sure that the authenticvoice, that typically helps close
these deals from a personalizationstandpoint remains relevant and timely.
And don't be so into the pacegame, but rather the quality game.
Matt, we could go down that holewhere the benefit of AI is tremendous.
Nobody's doubting that, right?
Nobody is doubting what AI potentiallycan do, but it's gotta be in a way
(15:51):
that's balanced, authentic, again,very, very transparent or else
reputation is going to get hit.
I think sometimes the decisionmakers and, or the audiences that
you're trying to influence mightsee right through it at times.
Matt (16:05):
I would agree with you.
I saw stats somewhere for a CEO froma tech company, looked and mapped the
number of sales email she's getting ina week and looked at it before ChatGPT
and after ChatGPT and she's gettingfour times as many sales emails now
because it's easier and faster towrite them and your sales target, is
just getting inundated with stuff.
(16:26):
Faster and cheaper may solvethe seller problem but it
makes the buyer problem worse.
How do you break through that?
It's a relationship, it's astory, it's being relevant.
Mark (16:36):
A hundred percent.
It is 100 percent definitely on therelationship mapping side of things.
I think right now marketing needs to makesure that sales is doing all they can
to keep the relationship map in place,bring that data back to marketing so that
they're understanding what's going on withthe relationship mapping that's happening.
And, I talked to a lot of individualsthat run the sales and marketing function.
(16:59):
And I know BDRs and teams have quotas tomake, but the ability to personalize your
message, to take the time to personalizethe message, to understand who you're
talking to and what they are feeling rightnow within the market, their pain, what
solution you have, how you can do it...
I think AI becomes a nice component tothat, but not the full component to that.
(17:23):
It's not the total solution.
I'm not all about getting ahundred emails out in a week.
I'm about getting the 20 emails that arereally gonna land and that you're gonna
learn from because how are you learningfrom the hundred that you send that out
if that becomes one of your quarters?
My kids are in sales, right?
One's at a really great, large publiclytraded tech company and my daughter,
(17:44):
just left a career in teaching and wentover to an app testing partner company.
So both of them, one managesteams, the other's a BDR.
I talked to them the other day.
I'm like, so what's going on in the sales?
Like what's happening there?
They're like, you know, sometimeswe don't have enough assets from
marketing to do our job effectively.
I'm like, well, do you have thatstream of communication going
with marketing where you caneffectively help, feed what you need?
(18:08):
Because you're on the frontlines and you've got to be able
to be agile and react quickly.
And both of them atthe same time said, no.
Well, there's still abreakdown there, Matt, right?
There's still this breakdownwhere you still have to see.
And the other trend we're starting tosee too is marketing reporting to sales.
Now, some of that is kind of 50-50, right?
(18:29):
Some of it is CMO still kind of owning therole and think hopefully they got a really
great relationship going with sales.
They're using a lot of the triggersand the data that they're seeing on
the frontline to help kind of coursecorrect what's going on in marketing.
And then you've got a lot ofareas where we're starting to see
marketing that's reporting the sales.
I was just on a call earliertoday where they're like, yep,
I got to get this approved.
It's a brand messaging exercise.
(18:50):
I got to go to my head of sales.
Matt (18:52):
Yep.
I think there's a lot to unpack there.
I think as B2B sales processes, as thebuying journey becomes more complex,
as we're required to collaborateacross go to market teams, the level of
communication and participation acrosslines, not just throwing information
each other, not just doing jazz hands atsales kickoff, but how do you actually
do this on a Tuesday morning, right?
(19:14):
Nailing that orchestrationbecomes more and more important.
Need to wrap this up a little bit tryto keep these usually within 20 minutes
so Mark Thank you for being here.
My last question to you as we head into Q4here, what makes you optimistic for 2025?
Mark (19:29):
It's absolutely very simple.
What's happened in our business in thelast three months, and again, marketing
is a leading indicator of what happensfrom an economy standpoint moving
forward, we've seen a tremendous amountof progress, both in decision making,
and the amount of investment that'sgoing into a lot of different activation
strategies across digital, acrossearned media, across owned properties.
(19:50):
You know, if you would havetalked to me back in June, I'd
be like, man, Matt, I don't know.
This is going to be atough year ahead of us.
I don't think so.
I think post election, I thinkyou're going to see a lot happening.
There's a lot of good indicators,interest rates being dropping down.
You see Tomo Bravo, you see KKRcoming up, these massive funds
directed right at the mid market.
I mean, who would havethought that, right?
I think that's going to fuel atremendous amount of optimism next year.
(20:12):
So I'm pretty bullish on next year.
I think we're getting some good signalsright now that next year is going to be
a really, really good year for marketing.
Matt (20:18):
Yeah.
We are as well starting to see andnot just anecdotally, but also seeing
some data and some research andsome optimism from the investors as
well as other parts of the market.
So yeah, fingers crossed, butdefinitely see things moving
things move in that direction.
Mark Nardone.
Thanks for joining us, man.
I appreciate you being here.
Mark (20:35):
Good seeing you, buddy.
Matt (20:36):
Great thanks everyone for joining us today.
We'll see you next week on anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Until then, take care.
Happy selling.
All right.
Welcome everybody to anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
So happy to have you here.
I'm your host, Matt Heinz, as wecontinue to roll along here every week,
every Thursday, live at 11:30 Pacific,2:30 Eastern, thank you so much for
making this part of your day, part ofyour work day, part of your work week.
We're here, Mark, almost theend of the month, end of the
week, end of the quarter.
So for those of you grinding in andout trying to hit your number, best of
(00:38):
luck over the next two and a half days.
Plenty of time, plenty of timeto bring in those numbers.
If you're watching or listeningon demand, thank you so much for
downloading, for subscribing.
Every episode of Sales Pipeline Radio,always available past, present, and
future at www.salespipelineradio.com.
Today, super excited to have MarkNardone, he's the Chief Marketing
Officer for Pan Communications.
(00:59):
And thanks for being here, man.
Mark (01:01):
Yeah, no problem.
I think the hair was probably maybea little bit darker the last time
I was on, but that's all right.
Matt (01:05):
Mine was probably still non existent.
So it's all good.
We continue to age.
One of my favorite sayings now is theolder I get and the more mistakes I
make and then be able to share somethingthat is kind of an experience share
or harder and less than that I wishyounger Matt would have paid more
attention to, or realized was a truth.
That's a whole other episode,but so many different angles we
could take together on this...
(01:26):
But I think this concept ofstorytelling is super interesting to me.
And if you think about the differentways we think about storytelling, the
story we tell around our brand, thestory we tell our prospects to have to
hopefully earn some of their attention...
It is budget season as we recordthis so the story we tell when
we're asking for money, right?
Instead of giving a laundry list of likewhere we're going to go spend money,
(01:46):
what's the story you're telling aboutwhat you are buying for the organization?
And combine that with increased evidenceand research, I'm now seeing that Dems
indicates that B2B brands are going toreinvest or grow their investment in brand
in 2025 and what is brand, if not a story?
So we'd love to hear from yourperspective-- first of all, for the
(02:07):
people that don't know you and don'tknow Pan, do a quick introduction
there and then how are you thinkingabout storytelling and brand as we
start thinking about next year already?
Mark (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So just for the individuals thatdon't know us, Pan Communications--
actually Pan now, we rebrandeda little while ago to just Pan.
Kind of started off in the PR industry asan agency and then moved into the brand
to demand kind of side of the business.
We focus a lot on telling really greatstories working with B2B tech comPanies
and healthcare firms as well on everythingat top of funnel to middle of funnel.
(02:36):
Starting to get pulled down to thebottom of funnel a little bit more, but.
From PR to content marketing tosocial, a lot of digital activation.
So about 240 employees spread acrossa few different offices globally.
So that's who we are in a nutshell.
Been around for 30 years.
Story.
I will tell you it's important and it'sinteresting because what we're seeing
(02:57):
on our end being in the services side ofthe industry as well as representing a
lot of tech, tech brands is second halfof the year, we've seen an absolute kind
of reverse a pattern and double downon inside of brand and brand awareness.
Some of that has to do with the factthat I think there was just a lot of kind
of like hesitation and a little bit ofconcern in the first half of the year.
(03:17):
So I think we're kind of seeing maybea little bit of the ricochet of second
half finish strong, set brand up wellfor kind of beginning parts of 2025.
And then I think we're just alsoseeing just marketers and brands
moving to decision a lot quicker.
I think when you and I last chatted,Matt, earlier this year, there was
just a lot of issues within pipelines,whether it was the pauses, the delays,
(03:40):
a lot of movements taking place.
And so what comes out of that naturally isthe ability for brands to kind of really,
really hone into story and narrative,what that looks like, how do they begin
it, what does it all kind of encompass?
One of the things that you startedtalking about was obviously what brand
means for business, for product, butalso from an experience standpoint.
(04:00):
And I think that's where we're startingto see more of the brand storytelling
start to come to the forefront, whichis the experience that customers and the
prospects and that industry has both withyour brand and with your executive team.
So I think it's a critical componentto what's happening right now.
So no surprise on, on brand investment.
Matt (04:16):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Yesterday, I was in Palo Altofor our client's-- what they
call a marketing therapy session.
We had about 70 B2Bmarketers in for lunch.
And we talked about brandand demand together.
We talked about this conceptof investing in brand.
And it was fascinating because a lot ofthe smaller comPanies in the room said,
we can't afford to invest in brand.
And the bigger comPanies, includingsome of the Panelists said,
we can't afford not to, right?
(04:37):
So I think there's this interestingdichotomy of how different comPanies,
perhaps, based on different sizesor even maybe just maturity of the
comPany, think about and acceptthe role of brand in driving, not
awareness, but having a direct impacton pipeline and revenue as well.
Mark (04:53):
No question about it.
And I think one of the one of themisperceptions out there is based on
size of brand determines obviously thelevers of investment, budget aside,
percentage of investment that you'remaking within some of these activities.
We started our agency in theemergent growth, moved to mid
to late stage types of brands.
So what we start to see is a lot of theformula that emerging growth package, they
(05:17):
put a lot of importance on brand, right?
They put a ton on top of funnel awarenessand what that all means around brand.
Mid stage gets a bit morecomfortable with that, right?
There's a lot of things that go onwith regards to storytelling and brand.
At the mid stage to late stage,there's a lot of vertical solutions--
you might be moving from singleproduct to multiple product.
You've got business in the US,you're starting to exPand globally.
(05:39):
There's a lot of things your executiveteam now moves from maybe one single
subject matter expert to four, five,six different subject matter experts.
Just think about all of those thingsthat go on in that kind of equation
and now wrap story into that.
And you might have multiple stories goingat once, but where the biggest concern
on our end and from a brand standpointis the inconsistency in telling story
(06:02):
across individuals through product,through purpose, through employees;
that becomes a major driving factorin how do you streamline everything?
How do you coordinate withteams so that you're all aligned
to the focus of the business?
And sometimes that goesoff rails quickly, Matt.
Matt (06:18):
It does.
And I think this is why I think it'simportant for us to talk about brand
in the context of storytelling here.
Because if you say you can't afford toinvest in brand, what I think some people
say is I don't have budget for that.
And brand is not billboards on 101 inthe valley, but brand is not putting
your logo on the side of a race car.
If you are good at nailing a story, astory that matters to your customer,
(06:41):
a story that aligns with and orenhances their narrative, a story
you can be consistent about sharingacross your comPany and across your
channels, a good story can take on alife of its own and can mitigate some
of the costs of having to buy space.
Like you can earn the space in yourcustomer's mind with a better story..
(07:03):
And I know I'm preaching to the choirhere, I don't know if you got an
example or two to showcase this is atthe heart of building a strong brand.
Mark (07:08):
Oh, there's no doubt.
So a couple of thingsI'll kind of address here.
One is, brands sometimes make themistake of going too quickly for the
growth opportunity and missing theopportunity that's right in front of them.
And I get that growth is the number onedriving factor behind, of course, business
and brand, but there's so much morepotential at times sitting in front of
(07:29):
them with the market that they're focusedin on and they start to dilute their value
proposition in that market and start togo off into these other growth areas.
And sometimes that might be too soon.
And sometimes that just might not bethe perfect timing, just in general.
So, as we get into that, it's becomea driving factor around why so many
clients right now and brands are talkingabout visiting messaging positioning.
(07:52):
I don't know about you, Matt, but we'reworking with a lot of brands where we're
either starting to do a refinement messagepositioning, or we're starting to really
start from scratch and rebuild the messagepositioning architecture, which then
starts to really drive a lot of differentbrand narratives coming out of that.
And I think that for brands today, andthis is a perfect time of year to talk
(08:14):
about this, Matt-- as you evaluatepipeline, as you evaluate what's going
on within sales, as you think abouttitles that are impacting decisions and
or delaying decisions, as you just thinkabout the committees that are going
on and what that all looks like, takethe time to start to audit and assess
what's happening with the new landscape.
What are the competitors doing?
(08:34):
What is everybody else looking likefrom an assessment and an audit?
And take some of that research andstart to build what could be just
a great moment in time for messageand positioning beginning in 2025.
You know, brands sometimes today justmake the mistake that our message is good.
You know, it's been in market for a year.
We don't need to tweak it.
We don't need to adjust it.
That's nonsense.
(08:55):
It's got to be in real time.
Matt (08:57):
Well, you may be comfortable with your message, but remember
that your message does not sitin isolation in the market.
Your message is sitting alongside andcompeting with countless other messages
for the finite amount of time that yourprospects and your customers and the
decision makers of their organizationshave, there is no good enough.
And I think you got to continue tolook for the ways to improve on that.
(09:18):
Talking today on Sales PipelineRadio with Mark Nardone.
He's the CMO, ChiefMarketing Officer for Pan.
And we're talking about the importanceof storytelling as a component of
building and managing a strong brand.
One of the other topics we coveredyesterday at the Palo Alto event was
the balance between brand and demand.
And thinking about this sometimes inlike just a two by two matrix, right?
brand and demand on one axis short termand long term on the other and I tend
(09:40):
to think like short term maybe three tosix months long term six months to two
years plus-- a lot of comPanies veryworried about the short term impact and
said, okay, it's the month, end of thequarter, I need to invest in demand.
And too often that short termneed to drive demand precludes
people from doing the buildingblocks of building brand as well.
I believe there are things you cando short and long term to build
(10:02):
that brand and to tell that story.
You mentioned starting with justhaving a fundamentally better story
and better message, but what aresome of the things that you see
comPanies doing well organically,even short term to start to build the
foundation of a long term strong brand?
Mark (10:18):
Yeah, that's a great question.
As we think through story and from thebrand to demand connection that we're
talking about here, how to story-aligneeverywhere throughout the journey of
a customer coming into the pipeline.
What does that look like?
How do you think of tone, pain point,necessity, and level of importance
as they're coming into the pipeline.
I think some of the things we'restarting to see really, really resonate
(10:41):
well is, I mean, this is going to beno surprise to everybody listening,
but data-- data and research.
I mean we're starting to see some really,really great impact with regards to
how story moves through data, how datareverses and tells a really good story.
How do you analyze the audienceof the prospector or the customer
that you're working with?
And walk in their shoes with regards to,I know Matt's a major marketer out there.
(11:04):
He does a lot of sales.
What type of data can I feed you,Matt that kind of gets you to kind
of, you know, act with some impact?
So we're looking at that through thelens of short term and long term.
So when I think about data inparticular, if we're pulling out this
one example, sometimes it's just,Hey, give me some of the moments
that matter in market right now.
Like what's happening withinthe next month to two months?
How can we jump on a lot of cooltrending topics to align data so that
(11:28):
we're able to drive a lot of interestingbrand awareness, but we're also then
able to bring that journey for themto come into an experience on our
site or in this section of our dataand insight section or hub section
that says, ha, now I'm all of a suddenlooking at annual research programs.
Now I'm looking atquarterly research reports.
They're giving me full step In themoment, what's happening this month
(11:49):
with regards to the reaction andmarkets all the way-- give me some more
premium research that's driving this.
So data and research is reallyimportant and how that moves your
story out to media is important.
How that goes across digitalchannels is really important.
How is it sales uses thatfrom an enablement standpoint,
decks and everything like that.
They just become one of our bestoptions with regards to putting out some
conversations and communication to market.
Matt (12:11):
I'd go as far as to say that I think data may be replacing media as
the coin of the realm for marketersin terms of creating differentiation
and driving, not just a timeliness,but timeliness with context.
Can you talk a little bit about howintent signals and the data that you
have available to you not only helpsyou shape the story, but also reach
the right person at the right timewith the story that's relevant to them?
Mark (12:31):
Yeah.
So let's just use Pan fora quick example, right?
We've got a few different reportsthat we put out, ones around
the Brand Experience Report.
It's all the experience that consumers andcustomers in general having with brand.
That's one angle that we go out with.
The other area we look intocoming out of that is AI.
We might look at sector experience aroundsecurity and, or healthcare, and how do
(12:52):
we use data to go into specific sectors?
And then you look at as we see intent,and we see these triggers of engagement
we're having and some of just the 360conversation we've got coming back
around, many marketers that are comingeven and looking at PAN are saying
how do I know what I'm doing is right?
Am I measuring the right areas?
(13:13):
Is my program performingwhere it should be?
So now all of a sudden you see this otherangle of content we come out with just
reality check and reality check allowsa marketer to look and say here's the
reality check of what's happening today,both with the skillset that I have in
my department, as well as the activationprograms that I have behind brand.
And it gives them this really coolconnector around brand experience
(13:34):
then over to the reality check.
And then the output for that mightbe-- five step guide to really
looking at 2025 planning initiatives.
How do you measure appropriately?
So you go long termbrand experience report.
Short term, we're looking at a quarterwhere we know we're recapping a year.
Measurement becomes really, reallycritical because they need to look back
and look forward around how their programsare performing in market right now.
(13:58):
And we start to put contentthat's relevant to the pain point
that they might be experiencingas they flow through a quarter.
That's how we treat a lot of the dataand a lot of a lot of the content
that we're looking at by quarter.
Matt (14:10):
Well, it gets even more interesting as you think about the
advancement of AI and what that'sgoing to enable to activate some
of those stories in that content.
We've talked for years aboutbuilding our white papers and our
ultimate guides to this and that.
And we spend a ton of timewriting something and then
producing it for everybody.
Well, what if you couldtake your core story?
What if you could take your core dataand create a custom ultimate guide
(14:31):
for each and every individual, letalone account, let alone industry,
because you can customize the messageto them and create something that is
intensely, highly relevant on a oneon one basis with near infinite scale?
Mark (14:44):
I have a couple of different point of views on this.
Right?
I think right now from an AI perspectiveaugmenting human to AI capabilities
is really, really important.
I think it's really, reallyimportant to remain transparent.
100%.
I think we're seeing a lot ofricochet around the ethics of AI.
I was talking to somebody on the brandside last week and a team that they
(15:06):
were using in a specific region wasputting out so much AI that the fact
checking now came back to them andthey started to get hit on reputation.
So you have to be really careful in ourworld, especially from creators, right?
How are we using AI inour everyday function?
I always like to tell my team just ingeneral, use it as a thought starter
to think through the ideas, use it as atest bed on how that idea is performing,
(15:28):
but please make sure that the authenticvoice, that typically helps close
these deals from a personalizationstandpoint remains relevant and timely.
And don't be so into the pacegame, but rather the quality game.
Matt, we could go down that holewhere the benefit of AI is tremendous.
Nobody's doubting that, right?
Nobody is doubting what AI potentiallycan do, but it's gotta be in a way
(15:51):
that's balanced, authentic, again,very, very transparent or else
reputation is going to get hit.
I think sometimes the decisionmakers and, or the audiences that
you're trying to influence mightsee right through it at times.
Matt (16:05):
I would agree with you.
I saw stats somewhere for a CEO froma tech company, looked and mapped the
number of sales email she's getting ina week and looked at it before ChatGPT
and after ChatGPT and she's gettingfour times as many sales emails now
because it's easier and faster towrite them and your sales target, is
just getting inundated with stuff.
(16:26):
Faster and cheaper may solvethe seller problem but it
makes the buyer problem worse.
How do you break through that?
It's a relationship, it's astory, it's being relevant.
Mark (16:36):
A hundred percent.
It is 100 percent definitely on therelationship mapping side of things.
I think right now marketing needs to makesure that sales is doing all they can
to keep the relationship map in place,bring that data back to marketing so that
they're understanding what's going on withthe relationship mapping that's happening.
And, I talked to a lot of individualsthat run the sales and marketing function.
(16:59):
And I know BDRs and teams have quotas tomake, but the ability to personalize your
message, to take the time to personalizethe message, to understand who you're
talking to and what they are feeling rightnow within the market, their pain, what
solution you have, how you can do it...
I think AI becomes a nice component tothat, but not the full component to that.
(17:23):
It's not the total solution.
I'm not all about getting ahundred emails out in a week.
I'm about getting the 20 emails that arereally gonna land and that you're gonna
learn from because how are you learningfrom the hundred that you send that out
if that becomes one of your quarters?
My kids are in sales, right?
One's at a really great, large publiclytraded tech company and my daughter,
(17:44):
just left a career in teaching and wentover to an app testing partner company.
So both of them, one managesteams, the other's a BDR.
I talked to them the other day.
I'm like, so what's going on in the sales?
Like what's happening there?
They're like, you know, sometimeswe don't have enough assets from
marketing to do our job effectively.
I'm like, well, do you have thatstream of communication going
with marketing where you caneffectively help, feed what you need?
(18:08):
Because you're on the frontlines and you've got to be able
to be agile and react quickly.
And both of them atthe same time said, no.
Well, there's still abreakdown there, Matt, right?
There's still this breakdownwhere you still have to see.
And the other trend we're starting tosee too is marketing reporting to sales.
Now, some of that is kind of 50-50, right?
(18:29):
Some of it is CMO still kind of owning therole and think hopefully they got a really
great relationship going with sales.
They're using a lot of the triggersand the data that they're seeing on
the frontline to help kind of coursecorrect what's going on in marketing.
And then you've got a lot ofareas where we're starting to see
marketing that's reporting the sales.
I was just on a call earliertoday where they're like, yep,
I got to get this approved.
It's a brand messaging exercise.
(18:50):
I got to go to my head of sales.
Matt (18:52):
Yep.
I think there's a lot to unpack there.
I think as B2B sales processes, as thebuying journey becomes more complex,
as we're required to collaborateacross go to market teams, the level of
communication and participation acrosslines, not just throwing information
each other, not just doing jazz hands atsales kickoff, but how do you actually
do this on a Tuesday morning, right?
(19:14):
Nailing that orchestrationbecomes more and more important.
Need to wrap this up a little bit tryto keep these usually within 20 minutes
so Mark Thank you for being here.
My last question to you as we head into Q4here, what makes you optimistic for 2025?
Mark (19:29):
It's absolutely very simple.
What's happened in our business in thelast three months, and again, marketing
is a leading indicator of what happensfrom an economy standpoint moving
forward, we've seen a tremendous amountof progress, both in decision making,
and the amount of investment that'sgoing into a lot of different activation
strategies across digital, acrossearned media, across owned properties.
(19:50):
You know, if you would havetalked to me back in June, I'd
be like, man, Matt, I don't know.
This is going to be atough year ahead of us.
I don't think so.
I think post election, I thinkyou're going to see a lot happening.
There's a lot of good indicators,interest rates being dropping down.
You see Tomo Bravo, you see KKRcoming up, these massive funds
directed right at the mid market.
I mean, who would havethought that, right?
I think that's going to fuel atremendous amount of optimism next year.
(20:12):
So I'm pretty bullish on next year.
I think we're getting some good signalsright now that next year is going to be
a really, really good year for marketing.
Matt (20:18):
Yeah.
We are as well starting to see andnot just anecdotally, but also seeing
some data and some research andsome optimism from the investors as
well as other parts of the market.
So yeah, fingers crossed, butdefinitely see things moving
things move in that direction.
Mark Nardone.
Thanks for joining us, man.
I appreciate you being here.
Mark (20:35):
Good seeing you, buddy.
Matt (20:36):
Great thanks everyone for joining us today.
We'll see you next week on anotherepisode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Until then, take care.
Happy selling.
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