May 27, 2025 • 30 mins
In this special episode of Sales Pipeline Radio from the Forrester B2B Summit 2025 marketplace floor, Matt spoke with Veena Vadgama, Fractional CMO and Kate Long, Vice President, Marketing at Crunchbase.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Heinz (00:16):
All right.
Here we are.
We are live on the Forrester B2BSummit Marketplace floor another
episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Thank you again to Forresterfor making this possible.
We've been having a lot of fun, but Igotta be honest, this I already think
might be our best episode of the day.
I mean, no offense to everybody that hasbeen on to date, which has been amazing.
Kate Long (00:35):
But I don't know who else was here, but
let's do it.
It wasn't you, the That's exactly right.
Matt Heinz (00:40):
All right, so just to set the table, we're gonna talk about modern
CM Oing, and this is not scripted.
We don't know where this is gonna go.
Mm-hmm.
Very excited to have Veena Vadgama,fractional CMO to the Stars.
Veena, thank you for being here.
Thank you.
And Kate Long, also CMO to the Stars.
Yes.
Currently, runningmarketing at Crunchbase.
Kate Long (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Matt Heinz (00:59):
I'm really glad you're both here.
We were gonna do these separately,and then Veena got hungry and then
you came early and we're like, hungry.
Let's all get, let's all get, eating is
Kate Long (01:07):
fine.
You gotta like this.
Matt Heinz (01:08):
It's one thing I didn't plan.
I had this whole schedule of, we're gonnado these episodes when it's busy in here.
And it's busy when there's lunch.
But guess what?
You don't get to do if you're doingshows during lunch, eat lunch.
Veena Vadgama (01:18):
But lunch starts at 12:45.
That's not lunch time.
That's time.
That's snack time.
No, that's why that's toolate for That's Pacific time.
Like Uhuh, my stomach waslike, what's going on?
Matt Heinz (01:27):
It's too late for lunch.
Like this is snack, but theybe like second breakfast.
You just need to workon the mealtime check.
So that's breakfast
Kate Long (01:33):
my boys have.
Two of each.
First and second breakfast,first and second dinner, lunch.
I don't know.
They're on their own at schooland like, how old are your boys?
They're all teenagers.
Yeah.
See, there you go.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (01:44):
My oldest, just turned 14 and he is now getting to the
point where he is eating everything.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And by everything I mostly justmean carbs and processed food.
Veena Vadgama (01:52):
Yes.
How they can do that.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (01:54):
There's one aisle at Costco that feeds my children.
I don't know how they stay alive.
My god.
I don't wanna see what theirinside look like at this place.
That is amazing.
That's pretty much.
That's pretty much it.
Kate Long (02:01):
Maybe you can have the CMO of Costco on next.
Matt Heinz (02:05):
Yeah.
But as you both know, there's aparenting channel in CMO Coffee Talk.
There's a sandwich parenting group.
Oh, I about that.
Which is about, and think about sandwichparenting is when you're parenting your
kids is starting to parent your parents.
Veena Vadgama (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm in sandwich parenting.
I'll join that.
Matt Heinz (02:18):
So let's talk about that then.
Veena Vadgama (02:20):
Yeah, sure.
Matt Heinz (02:20):
Yeah.
We can talk about all these things.
So, modern CM Oing, I don'teven know what that means.
I kind of made it up.
Either of you have an idea.
What if you think modern CMO do you wince?
A little bit.
Veena Vadgama (02:31):
I'll say something.
So.
Matt and I were talking about our oldestkids looking at colleges and I was looking
at a college yesterday in Dallas with him.
Oh, nice.
He's looking at business.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the majors is marketingand oh my God, is it data driven?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
In terms of what they're teachingthem, supply chain analytics, just
all the data processing, all themarketing operations side of it.
(02:54):
I went to business school a long time ago.
It wasn't about all of this stuff.
Yeah.
So I think modern CMOing, and asyou're seeing here at Forrester,
it is all about the data sets andhow do you put all that together.
And that's changed, right?
Yeah.
In the last 10, 15 years, therewas a session I just left it was
called MQL is Dead, and it wassupposed to be with some speakers.
It was a packed room.
Oh sure.
And the guy was like, howmany of y'all still use MQLs?
(03:15):
And everybody raised their hand.
Sure.
He's like, yeah.
So it's a nice idea, but we'restill kind of stuck in this way.
So I guess modern CM Oing isfinally trying to get past that.
What do you think?
Kate Long (03:24):
Well, I sort of have two thoughts.
One is I used a term last week onCMO Coffee Talk that apparently
everyone didn't know, which wasabout keeping your knees bent.
Veena Vadgama (03:34):
Oh, you were the one
Kate Long (03:35):
That was me.
I remember that.
Which essentially itmeans remaining agile.
Right?
It was a basketballthing you played, right?
Yeah, it was Right, exactly.
Otherwise.
How are you gonna play defenseif your knees aren't bent?
Matt Heinz (03:45):
That confused a lot of people.
Kate Long (03:47):
I didn't mean to.
Yeah.
So I love it.
So bad way to characterizeit, but I think agility.
Yeah.
So I was just commenting, I was meetingwith somebody over in the 6sense, lounge.
And, I was talking about, so I justrecently took this role at Crunchbase
and I actually was in the direct toconsumer space for two years before that.
(04:07):
And then before that I was in B2B.
So I haven't been toForrester in a few years.
Mm-hmm.
And I haven't used the traditionalB2B tool set in a few years.
It is night and day from 2022.
I am having conversations with thesereps from these companies thinking I know
what they do, but I don't anymore becauseeverybody's integrated AI and everybody's
(04:30):
talking to everybody else and well,everybody's using the same buzzwords.
And so I think there's something aboutjust always needing to be learning and
open and agile because it's changingfaster than any one of us I think would've
ever expected when we got started.
Veena Vadgama (04:46):
Yeah, and it's the marketing operations hire now.
Yes.
Is one of the most critical, right,when you're first starting in a group.
And also I have been in orgs thatthey're so over rotated on the tools
and the measuring that they can'tmake heads or tails out of anything.
'cause it's just like, youdon't get fired for getting IBM.
It's like you don't get firedfor putting in a bunch of tools.
(05:06):
Right.
And having a bunch of metrics.
Well, yeah, you do.
Kate Long (05:08):
Even if they don't talk to each other.
Exactly.
And they're not delivering ROI Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (05:13):
Kind of gluttonous.
Matt Heinz (05:14):
So, you mentioned Veena, you mentioned data sets and back to those
of us that have been around for a while,the corner of the realm in marketing
has always been, how much budget do youhave and how much media can you buy?
And, where are you putting your ads andhow many of those ads are generating MQLs,
well increasingly the data is replacingthat media spend as the coin of the realm.
Like the better data you have, the morelikely you could actually orchestrate the
(05:35):
right behaviors and campaigns independentof how much money you spend on media.
Veena Vadgama (05:41):
Well, I'll say that.
My sweet spot from, fractionalmarketing, whatever I've been doing
for two years now it's all B2B SaaS,less than 10 million in revenue.
Right.
So we are forced to startwith the end in mind.
Yeah.
'cause you have such a smallbudget, you have very little runway.
So we do focus on that data.
I think we're very good at it in ourspace, because we don't have a choice.
(06:02):
We have to look at the average sales.
We have to look at the ICP.
We have to work backwards from what's ourtarget for the next couple of quarters.
And then we decide ourspend based on that.
Right.
So that's the one luxury I think whenyou work in a smaller, little world.
Yeah.
You there's a lot more connection.
Kate Long (06:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, the other thing toois that right now at Crunchbase
we're starting to evolve our model.
We started out very muchas a PLG organization.
We still have that, but nowwe're moving into direct sales.
And really selling datainto the enterprise.
So we have a lot of data right now,but it works for the old model.
(06:40):
And so a huge part of my job isfiguring out what data do we have.
And how can it be used for thenew model and where are our gaps?
How do I augment it?
Because we're not a under $10million company, but we still have
to make sure we're landing theright leads with the right rep.
(07:00):
None of this big fancy B2C spend.
Right.
Veena Vadgama (07:03):
Kate, I'm curious, what's your process for looking
at that tool or that data setand determining how valid it is.
Kate Long (07:08):
Right.
And so what I'm trying to do, I'mstarting with the end in mind.
There was a session that happenedearlier in one of the tracks about,
the CMO and the B2B marketing orreally being a driver of growth.
And I know I joined Crunchbasewith that as my primary mandate.
And so it's essentially going,okay, here's our growth target.
(07:29):
We're working on our account list.
Now, what kind of data do we need to beable to get those account lists Right.
And start talking to them.
And one of the things, for example,that we know we need to work on
is, our existing customer base.
So we have a ton of data, frompeople who use the platform, but we
haven't done anything with it to thenfeed into the direct sales model.
(07:52):
Interesting.
And so some of it is about figuringout how are we hitting those
growth metrics and some of it'sabout the lowest hanging fruit.
Yes.
That's right in front of you.
I don't wanna spend on something crazyexternal if there's actually a lot we can
do internally to get the ball rolling.
Veena Vadgama (08:05):
You know, on Coffee Talk we've had April Dunford speak
a few times I think she's amazing.
Right?
So she talks about thesehappy customers mm-hmm.
And being able to work from that.
Mm-hmm.
So it kind of sounds like that'swhat you're thinking about as well.
Kate Long (08:17):
Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (08:17):
Yeah.
Kate Long (08:17):
Yeah.
I think that's a goodway to characterize it.
Veena Vadgama (08:19):
I like that.
Kate Long (08:20):
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (08:20):
Guys, there's a booth across from us here, Kate, I don't know if you
can see it, but Veena, you can see it.
They have puppies.
They have puppies.
There's puppies in the booth.
Veena Vadgama (08:26):
I'm gonna give credit to Lead2Pipeline.
Shout out to Lead2Pipeline.
I can't.
So there's a therapy dog right herethat I've been wanting to go pet.
Cute.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But no, I can't see them.
Pipelines got quite thecrowd, ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah.
Because of the, puppies.
Adorable puppies I can't That
Kate Long (08:42):
is brilliant.
Blame them.
Matt Heinz (08:43):
Um, oh man.
When you do a show like this, we'veall been around long enough, you've
done a billion of these shows.
As much as we joke about it,that's pretty brilliant, right?
Like we're putting puppies inyour, because we're sitting
here talking about pipeline.
Veena Vadgama (08:54):
Now's a conversation they must have had.
Yeah.
And
then they have a video.
In their booth that's showingall these puppies playing.
I wonder if it's connected toan adoption agency that's local.
Wouldn't that be cool?
Well, it says
Matt Heinz (09:05):
puppy adoption.
Veena Vadgama (09:07):
It's, it's a puppy adoption.
Wanna talk of that?
So now Kate's
Matt Heinz (09:09):
really thinking about this.
Yeah.
Look at that little thing.
Anyway, yeah.
Way off topic.
Yeah.
All right.
So I dunno how you pivot to that fromteam management, but we're gonna mm-hmm.
When you come in as a new CMO, soyou're new at Crunchbase, you inherit
a team, you inherit a group of peers.
How do you start to build trustand credibility coming in cold?
Kate Long (09:28):
Oh gosh.
That's always hard to do.
We happen to be a fully remote company,so I personally find it even harder.
Mm-hmm.
I really love getting toknow a whole person mm-hmm.
And understanding what they're all about.
I guess in front of thescreen and off screen too.
Yeah, because there'sno longer that divide.
(09:50):
And that's, harder to do, remotely.
So typically, I'll start by justbeing really open and authentic
and honest about who I am.
And when I do that, it tends toengender like a similar response.
Yeah.
As quickly as I possibly can, I makesure I'm just getting one-on-ones with
everyone and I treat those one-on-ones.
(10:10):
Much more like a getting to know youthan about a, give me the laundry list
of what you're working on kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
And then, I took the opportunityjust being here at Forrester.
I brought four people from my teamwho we are spread out all over the
country as a really great opportunityfor us to spend time together.
Yes.
For them to start to learn more inservice of this new direct sales
model we're gonna be rolling out.
(10:31):
So it's not a playbook, it's just littlebits and pieces of here and there.
And I think some of it dependson what you're walking into.
If you're walking into a situation likeme where they haven't had a leader for
a little bit, yeah, it's all roses.
'cause everybody'sexcited to have a leader.
If you're walking into asituation where someone's been
ousted, that is a whole nother
. Matt Heinz: yeah.
You say no playbook, but you justwalked through a bunch of steps
(10:52):
that I think that's a playbook.
Okay.
I don't have it written down.
Matt Heinz (10:54):
Like a checklist is a playbook.
Right.
Fair enough.
Are looking something glossy.
Just it's fancy.
Just in my, no, she just
Veena Vadgama (11:00):
knows her steps.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (11:01):
So, Veena, I'm curious from your perspective as a fractional
CMO and not necessarily with, Imean, the question for you is not
with your team, but with your peers.
What are the nuances of building trustand credibility with your leadership
team peers when you are fractional.
Veena Vadgama (11:16):
Yeah.
One of the benefits about being fractionalis that you do have a limited time, right?
Yeah.
With the leadership team.
So you have to get in, getthe work done, and get out.
So when I'm managing a team full time,just like Kate said, I bring in the user
manuals, I discuss what's, what makingyou tick, why are you taking this job?
Are you trying to get a paycheck?
Are you trying to move in your career?
(11:37):
So I try to really get to know 'emwhen you're at a fractional level,
they brought you in to solve a problem.
Yeah.
And so you don't spend alot of time on that stuff.
And sometimes it's nice 'cause you justhave to focus on getting the work done.
But, it's also why fractionalwork is usually temporary.
Right.
Not long term.
Because once you've got the problem solvedor the problem underway, you do exit.
You're not building those sort oflong-term relationships as much
(11:58):
as you would be if it's full time.
Kate Long (11:59):
Do you find that difficult?
How long is a typical engagement thatyou have, and if these people are key
to solving that problem, but you don'thave the time to, establish that.
Veena Vadgama (12:08):
Yeah, so where we work at 5 1 2 Financial, we've had, three
models that we bring in and, mostlyour engagements are between six months.
And above.
Okay.
So we've had one client for oneand a half years, for example.
Okay.
So we'll come in and I'll justmanage their internal marketing team.
So those are all full-timers,but I'm managing them part-time.
In that scenario, I do get to knowthem because they're there full-time.
(12:30):
I wanna make sure that they're motivatedand they're happy and it's all going well.
Sometimes I'll bring in my part-timemarketing executors on top of strategy.
And so I know my team, so we allhave that, nice little bond already.
And then sometimes I'm justin trying to solve a problem.
Yeah.
And in those situations,get in and get out.
Matt Heinz (12:48):
You mentioned Veena earlier, this concept of product market fit.
I'm not doing a verynice job transitioning.
We're just gonna go there.
I love it.
I don't think a lot ofpeople think about that.
Veena Vadgama (12:56):
Oh, that's because they haven't had the problem.
I bet, you have that problem.
That's all you think about.
You know, it's not that easy.
Matt Heinz (13:03):
It's really not that easy.
And I think like if you go to asales team and say, what do you need?
Many of them are gonna say, I need leads.
It's like, no you don't.
Leads is a manifestation of a marketthat demands what you're selling.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So if the market understands andcovets the solution you have,
that solves the problem they have.
That's it.
That's a version of product market fit.
So if we can nail product marketfit, I'm not saying that you
(13:26):
build that, they will come.
I'm not saying like if you nail that,everyone's gonna come to your doorstep,
but the response will be better,your conversion rates will be higher,
your sales cycle will be shorter.
Yeah.
So if you tell a sales team, if you'regonna call someone and say what you
represent, you want a market that'slike, oh hell yeah, I have that problem.
I wanna solve for that.
Right.
But easier said than done.
(13:47):
Yeah.
And so in the conversations we have,most people come and just say, we need to
build demand, we need to build pipeline.
But there isn't necessarily even adocumented product market fit that tells
me that they're actually onto something.
Veena Vadgama (14:00):
Yeah, one of the things I've noticed with my clients is that,
there's a lot of smaller, B2B, 2 million,4 million revenue companies that are
struggling with product market fit.
And so they'll go to a Gartner anda Forrester, I'm not trying to,
discount where we are today, butthey'll go to Forrester and be like,
I'm gonna sign a massive, multi-yearengagement so you guys can help me
with my product market fit problem.
Will these analyst firms.
(14:21):
They work on mature markets.
Yeah.
Majority of the time.
So to have a mature market personcome in and help you establish product
market fit, when you have an innovativenew, nobody knows this thing exists.
Like one of my clients, the CEO,was like, we compete with Excel
and our price point is $50,000.
I'm like, well, we're gonnahave a hard time explaining to
people that they can get Excelor they can get this for $50,000.
(14:44):
So you have to really work on that.
And I think product market fitsis an all day, all night problem.
A lot of people just hiredemand gen 'cause they think
that's what all they need.
And I'm like, Nope, productmarketing is gonna help you get
that demand gen thing started.
Kate Long (14:57):
Yeah.
And I'm curious if either of you haveseen this, I think we're starting
to see a little bit of a correction.
I'm starting to see alittle more out there.
In support of brand and product marketingis sort of the understanding that
these are like long-term demand plays.
It's still all about demand.
You still need to generate the demand,but these are the long-term plays
(15:20):
and they're not necessarily gonnabe the thing you can automatically
translate into an MQL, right?
But they're going to be the thingsthat smooth the glide path for
that sales conversation so thatthe sales person isn't taking an
hour to explain who you are, whatyou do, why you're worth of value.
Right?
It's the kind of things that havepeople keep you in their mind.
(15:43):
If they're not ready to buy now, they'reready to buy in six months or a year.
And of course that's harder tomeasure and everybody needs to see
those results today, today, today.
But I think we're learningthat those results are really
like short term in nature.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like I'm starting to seea little bit more out there that's
a correction back, but I guess whatI would say is, 'cause I was just on
(16:05):
the job market, I felt like I startedseeing more brand focused positions.
I started seeing a little morewords like positioning right?
Like out there.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (16:16):
I want that to be true.
Mm-hmm.
And I know that there are somecompanies that are doing that.
Even in the B2B space, I'm seeingcompanies do everything from just
investing more in their communities,investing more in customer advisory
boards, investing in even sortof activations beyond just, the
normal things in their industry.
Like Smartsheet has beenheavily into Formula One.
Yeah.
You've got a lot of, B2B brandsthat are heavily into sports and
(16:38):
golf and tennis and other things.
Yeah.
Where it's not just about havingsomeone's logo on your sleeve,
it's the activation around that.
Right.
It's getting a golfer to come do puttinglessons for your customers, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you could argue some ofthose are lead gen related, but
that investment in the logo onsomeone's car, that's brand right?
And that's a brand activation.
You can't measure thatpurely on pipeline, right?
My eyebrow went up becauseI think everyone wants that.
(17:00):
But when it comes down to it, when itcomes down to how much you spend on
that, like even just in the half daywe've been doing this session here, I've
had my, oh man, that's a great idea.
We should have like a podcast booth.
Well, this isn't free, right?
You gotta spend money on the spaceand the equipment and everything else.
And it's not crazy expensive, but.
A dollar for dollar on that whenyou've got a board or leadership team
saying like, how much pipeline didwe get out of every dollar we spent?
(17:22):
I think when the rubber meets theroad, people just want pipeline.
We can argue this forever, that you knowwhy that balance should exist and yet
the reality is it's still pretty Yeah.
Unbalanced.
Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (17:33):
Well, you can do anything with your budget.
If you can explain to the boardhow it added to the bottom line.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, at the end of the day, youcan talk about how the puppies here,
added triple their leads hopefullyat the show, which ultimately,
tripled maybe, opportunities.
Matt Heinz (17:53):
You can A/B test puppies
Veena Vadgama (17:54):
and yeah, you could.
So I'm saying, even the logo on therace car can be attributed somehow.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (18:01):
Wouldn't it be cool if we had data here where like you, okay.
Like that booth has plush dolls.
That booth has chocolate,that booth has puppies.
Who's got the most traffic?
I can eyeball this right now.
I mean, to tell you who's winning.
Kate Long (18:14):
Yeah.
But is it the right traffic?
Is it qualified traffic?
Matt Heinz (18:16):
Well, but that's the conference's job, right?
Right.
So if I'm looking at a place likethis thing, I want to attract
mid-market to enterprise B2B marketers.
This is your shot, right?
If you were gonna have puppiesat Dreamforce, where it's like a
hundred thousand people and you'vegot developers and marketers and
salespeople and everybody, I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so you still gotta do that math.
Yeah.
Kate Long (18:37):
I do wanna come back to the question of, you were saying as
long as you can attribute the spendto the bottom line, I think the issue
becomes a short term, long term.
Like what is the boards view ofwhen that bottom line should hit?
Yes.
And I think that's thereally, really big tension.
Yes.
I think particularly in the lastfew years, especially just given
how tight things have been.
(18:58):
And,
Veena Vadgama (18:58):
and I'll do a plug from my article on LinkedIn, why
marketing cannot Report to Salesbecause I believe very, very,
Kate Long (19:05):
I'm gonna need to read that one very, very consistently.
That you tell No,
Veena Vadgama (19:08):
just real quick.
I was just saying, you know, marketinghas to think of that long term, right?
The puppies.
Mm-hmm.
And it has to think of what'shappening this quarter.
Yeah.
Right.
And if you report to sales,you're only thinking about
what's happening this quarter.
This quarter, and then youdon't get to do the puppies.
Yeah.
See how I keep bringing it back?
Back to the puppies?
To puppies.
Kate, what are you thinking?
Oh, no, all I was gonna
Kate Long (19:25):
say is I wrote an article about why product marketing
shouldn't report to product.
Veena Vadgama (19:28):
Ooh.
I would read that one.
You and I are
Kate Long (19:30):
cut from a very similar cloth.
Veena Vadgama (19:32):
I would agree with that premise and I wanna read it.
Matt Heinz (19:37):
This has been a great conversation.
Kate Long (19:38):
See, this is
Matt Heinz (19:38):
where, this is segue.
We're all, old enough to havekids and I think we all have
teenagers at this point point.
We do.
What does raising teenagersteach you about B2B marketing.
Veena Vadgama (19:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Shoot.
Matt Heinz (19:53):
About that.
That was, that was unfair.
Well, that was kind of, that was kindof click bait without really the answer.
Gimme time.
It was click.
It was click bait.
Yeah.
What is raising teenagersand is your, are you a boys?
Kate Long (20:02):
I'm a boy.
Mom, boy, mom.
Three boys.
Three boys.
Three boys.
That's why I liked you.
You have three boys.
You're a three point mom too.
How many eggs do you go through in a week?
Veena Vadgama (20:12):
A lot.
Eggs.
Oh my god.
Before eggs and
Kate Long (20:13):
bread.
Before coming to Phoenix.
I am not even kidding you.
On Friday I bought 72 eggs.
Count them 72 when I left on Mondaymorning, 24 we're already gone.
Oh my God.
And eggs are expensive.
Do you know what the pro tip is?
Matt Heinz (20:27):
Get chickens.
Kate Long (20:30):
I know people aren't doing that.
I just, I don't want anotherthing to take care of.
Well, I can't even keep plants alive.
I just Fair, I feel likethat would be a bad recipe.
Fair.
Matt Heinz (20:39):
Chickens are lower maintenance than cats.
We've had chickens for years.
Oh, okay.
And it does take a little extra time.
And if you think you're saving money,you're kidding yourself, you will
spend way more money on your eggs.
Well, then don't tellme that's the secret.
But you don't have to go to the market.
Like, we have 10 chickensat this time of year.
We get 8 to 10 eggs a day.
Oh, that's amazing.
They just keep showing up.
And between kids and baking and everythingelse, we go through a lot of eggs, so.
(20:59):
Mm-hmm.
They're not cheap eggs,but they are also fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
Veena Vadgama (21:03):
I've been trying to answer your question.
Mm-hmm.
Which was a good one.
And my only comment that I'll make isthat understanding how to parent my
children has made me better at marketing.
'cause the targeting is so critical.
Okay.
And how you talk to a teenager.
Okay.
You learn that.
Not so quick.
I wish I learned it quicker,but I'm better at it now with
(21:25):
my second teenager there now.
But yeah, I don't know about B2B.
That's a good one.
Kate Long (21:30):
No, but I think that's right.
If you're nurturing an audienceover a long period of time, the
way you talk to your teenager, it'sdifferent than how you talk to them
when they were in middle schoolthan they were in elementary school.
So it's like the whole customerlife cycle right there.
Hundred percent.
A hundred percent in front of you.
Veena Vadgama (21:45):
We were going to visit a college.
Like I said, on the way back, he wasdriving the car so he gets to do the
music and he kept changing the song afterevery 30 seconds, and I'm like, you listen
to Spotify, like you listen to TikTok.
He just couldn't getthrough the whole song.
This whole generation,man, I'm telling you.
I know,
Matt Heinz (22:01):
I know.
My youngest son is really intobaseball, but what that means
is he likes watching highlights.
Ah, he has never sat through a wholegame like I've taken him to games and
he can't sit there the whole game.
Even if you keep buying food, hewon't wanna sit the whole game.
Yeah.
It's a different attention span.
It is.
It totally is.
It's so different.
It totally is.
It's scary as
Kate Long (22:17):
heck, I think my learning of parenting, especially teenagers, as
it pertains to B2B marketing is like.
Don't hold anything too tightly.
Let everything roll off your back.
Again, maybe this again,like a knees bent.
Hey everybody, back to the bad analogy.
But like agility, right?
I think you parent differently foreach kid and you can't get your fur
(22:41):
up, about every little thing thatthey say and do that annoys you
because you would just constantly be
Veena Vadgama (22:47):
100%.
It's the same way.
Like
Kate Long (22:49):
you can't get your fur up every time your CEO says something stupid
or your head of sales wants something.
It's really about just being superchill and rolling with things.
Veena Vadgama (23:00):
Absolutely.
Kate Long (23:00):
So my husband, he and I are really different in that way.
Yeah.
We ended up balancing each other out.
There were times where he would getso frustrated with me because I wasn't
reacting to something the kids weredoing and or I would get frustrated
with him 'cause I'd be like, I don'tthink that's worth reacting to.
Matt Heinz (23:16):
So my wife sent me something the other day 'cause i'm a little too
hard on the kids, I'll admit that.
But I think she sent me somethingthat said if your kid comes downstairs
in the morning and they're happyand they're talking to you, do not
bug them about their messy room.
Do not bug them aboutleaving milk on the table.
Do not get on their caseabout little things.
Just enjoy the moment.
Enjoy the morning.
Yes.
Yes.
And it was a good reminder, andI wish I heard it five years ago.
(23:38):
Yes,
Veena Vadgama (23:39):
I try.
I'm not good at this either, but I tryreally hard, like every day I wanna
give them more positive affirmations.
than criticisms, right?
Yes.
And so if at the end of the day ifmy balance was more positive, then
you know, that I feel like, okay,that's a win for me as a parent.
Mm-hmm.
'cause man, I've had days whereit's been not that way, it's bad.
Well, and I think it's even a win if
Kate Long (23:59):
they're, especially when they're teenagers, and they're boys
that they're just talking to you.
So in the morning, what I'll do,because my job is now fully remote, I
will wake up when they wake up, I willmake my coffee and I will just sit
there with them while they're gettingready, they may not say anything to me.
But I'm there if they want to.
And then if they do say something,I'm like, oh my God, they love me.
(24:19):
I know I
Veena Vadgama (24:19):
got validation.
Oh my God, they thought of me.
We're the puppies.
We're.
Matt Heinz (24:29):
So I think maybe the last question I wanna ask you guys,
'cause we're all parents of kidsthat, rely on us on a daily basis.
It sounds like we've got, spouses thatcan chip in when we're traveling, but
as important as events like this are,how do you make that trade off to
decide when you come to an event likethis and when you need to stay home?
I think about this a lot asthe events have come back.
For me as a consultant, like goingto events is a big part of our
(24:51):
visibility and biz dev, and yet Idon't wanna be gone all the time.
Yeah.
So you gotta pick your spots.
Veena Vadgama (24:56):
I find as a mom of three, which you can
relate to, I get re-energizedat these sorts of conferences.
I learn, I get outta my comfort zone.
I take care of myself for acouple days, which is really nice.
I come back, I'm a better parent.
Mm-hmm.
So to me, doing this a couple timesa year, at least it helps me at home.
Yeah.
Believe it or not.
Kate Long (25:15):
Yeah, I very much feel the same way.
And I've had the good fortuneever since my kids were young.
I was the one who was always travelingand thank goodness that my spouse
had a job where he didn't have to.
And I always found that getting away waslike what I needed to be reinvigorated.
But that said, it doesalways come with a trade off.
I still don't make the decisionslightly, but it's definitely more
(25:38):
on a case by case basis or it'smore on a like, they play baseball.
Which season is it?
Okay.
I am missing a bunch of my kids' baseballgames this week, but which season is it?
Or is it during their finals week?
I'm not gonna leave during finals week.
So some of it has to do with thecalendar at home too, you know?
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (25:55):
Yeah.
It's wrestling season, it'smiddle school wrestling season.
Ooh.
And my middle son's eighth grade.
And he's not the world's best wrestler,Uhhuh, but he really enjoys it.
It gives him a lot of confidence.
Yeah.
As a, middle schooler that we allstruggle with in middle school.
Mm-hmm.
And, to be there, whether hewins or loses, it's a big deal.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that earlier in my careerI justified traveling a lot.
'cause I'm like, well,I don't miss birthdays.
(26:15):
I don't miss first days of school.
I don't miss weekends.
But you know what I do miss is Tuesday.
Aw.
Yep.
You miss those midweek moments.
And the older I get, themore mistakes I make.
I realize building relationships withmy kids is not about the big moments.
It's about the everyday moments.
It's about driving the car connect.
It's on the way to practice.
It's exactly, it's the windshield time.
It's prioritizing with eachof the kids having something
(26:35):
that is just the thing we do.
Mm-hmm.
Just the two of us.
Oh, I love that.
It doesn't even have to cost money, butit's just something that we do together.
I almost said, if you come to myhotel room and I stopped myself
'cause that would be inappropriate.
Yeah, that's inappropriate.
Kate Long (26:47):
But
but on my bedside
Matt Heinz (26:49):
table right now is the first, book of the Wings of Fire series.
Mm-hmm.
Do you know the Wings of Fire?
Yes, I do.
And so it's a, young adult.
I don't even know if it's a young adult.
It's a scholastic book, right?
Yeah.
It's about dragons that are supposedto have a prophecy and a destiny.
Yes.
And so my middle son, I am readingthis because my middle son loves
this series and he's on like book 12.
Oh my gosh.
And he's trying to explain it to me andhe is like, daddy, you should read it.
(27:11):
And I'm thinking the last thingI want to do is read this week.
And I'm into it now and I'm like, God,this is definitely written for a junior.
Oh, that share with me.
We're gonna have something to talk about.
Yes.
And then I'm gonna be like,well, I wonder what happens now.
No spoilers, Nick.
And it's one of thosemoments, you know, you get.
Veena Vadgama (27:24):
I'm into Outlander, right now.
You think I can get mykids to read Outlander?
No, I don't think so.
Is that,
Kate Long (27:28):
isn't that a little Yeah, I know.
Okay.
Yeah, it's a joke.
Just, yeah.
I was like, wait a second.
Took me a second there.
But it's a good story.
Scottish.
We got Bridgeton.
Veena Vadgama (27:36):
That's love.
Some Bridgerton.
Well, you know, not with the 11-year-old.
Matt Heinz (27:43):
Well, this has been fun.
I'm glad we did this together 'causeit would've been fun separately.
So good.
Veena.
Kate, thank you so much for being here.
What are you looking forwardto the next day and a half?
Veena Vadgama (27:53):
I'm gonna continually go to all the sessions where I do
not understand anything in the title.
Yeah.
Perfect.
'cause those are the ones where
Kate Long (28:00):
I,
Veena Vadgama (28:01):
that's a great strategy.
That's a great
Kate Long (28:03):
strategy.
What does that mean?
And I am going to, my team and Ialready did a split up so that we
all go and get different content.
And so we're all doing learning againstsome of the big things we've gotta do.
And I of course look forward tothe sessions, but I look forward
to the team debrief too, becauseit's us coming back to together and
(28:24):
sharing all of our learnings, whichis the only way it sticks anyway.
It's true.
Matt Heinz (28:29):
All right.
Thank you so much for being here, Matt.
Thank you.
Thanks Matt.
Look forward to see you out and aboutat Club 6 at the parties, the raves
and the all-nighters later tonight.
Yes, the all-nighters, we hadsomeone come on earlier, a hundred
bucks if you can guess who it was.
So another CMO was on earlier,and I found out that she was
a DJ when she was in college.
And she called it the Saturday Night Gig,but it was 5:00 to 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
(28:50):
And that's not the kind of Saturday night.
Oh.
I'm thinking of, that.
Kate Long (28:55):
Well, they've got a DJ out there and I was thinking to
myself, it's probably the best gig.
It's a daytime gig and you laugh at allthese nerdy tech guys as they walk past.
And you probably getpaid better than a bar.
Matt Heinz (29:06):
I often think that the musical acts they bring onto these things.
I just make fun of people.
I still remember whenMetallica played Dreamforce.
Oh my God.
Veena Vadgama (29:13):
They had Journey at Cisco Live one year Journey
I've never seen, men run
Matt Heinz (29:17):
How fortunate are we,
that for your job, you go to aconference that has Train, right?
Yes.
And it has Metallica and Journey.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
But the look on some of their faceswhen they're in a convention center.
Yes.
And they're hopefully gettingpaid pretty well, but half the
people are paying attention.
The other half are just like,this is not the future they
Kate Long (29:39):
envisioned for themselves.
No.
No.
Well, I
Matt Heinz (29:41):
assume the Metallica was gonna show up a Dreamforce and
play like the more pop songs thatpeople, I think they are like.
No, we're going old school.
We're gonna play Kill 'em All and Ride theLightning, do all the old stuff, and just
scare the crap out of these developers.
Kate Long (29:53):
Uhhuh sounds about
Matt Heinz (29:53):
right.
Yes.
I still have a picture, I wentwith Annika Sealey and she does
her own sort of sales consultingand she's been around for a while.
Mark Benioff worked for her in aninside sales role back in the day.
Wow.
So she's like an OG and I remember we wereat an event right before that and I said,
I'm gonna go to the Metallica concert.
And she's like.
I wasn't gonna go.
I'm like, oh, you did really good.
I said, what kind of music?
She's like, well, metal.
(30:14):
She's like, oh, go check that out.
I have a picture somewhere of her,but just this quizzical, like she's
watching, and it's this combinationof what is that and why am I here
and who dragged me to this and whenwill it be over all in one look?
It was phenomenal.
Oh, shout out Annika, I love you.
You know I tell this story and I hopeyou did enjoy some of that because
we got to be like five feet fromJames Hetfield and it was amazing.
Kate Long (30:37):
That's awesome
Veena Vadgama (30:38):
memories.
Matt Heinz (30:38):
Thank you everybody you see out there.
Veena Vadgama (30:41):
Thank you.
Have a good day.
All right.
Here we are.
We are live on the Forrester B2BSummit Marketplace floor another
episode of Sales Pipeline Radio.
Thank you again to Forresterfor making this possible.
We've been having a lot of fun, but Igotta be honest, this I already think
might be our best episode of the day.
I mean, no offense to everybody that hasbeen on to date, which has been amazing.
Kate Long (00:35):
But I don't know who else was here, but
let's do it.
It wasn't you, the That's exactly right.
Matt Heinz (00:40):
All right, so just to set the table, we're gonna talk about modern
CM Oing, and this is not scripted.
We don't know where this is gonna go.
Mm-hmm.
Very excited to have Veena Vadgama,fractional CMO to the Stars.
Veena, thank you for being here.
Thank you.
And Kate Long, also CMO to the Stars.
Yes.
Currently, runningmarketing at Crunchbase.
Kate Long (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Matt Heinz (00:59):
I'm really glad you're both here.
We were gonna do these separately,and then Veena got hungry and then
you came early and we're like, hungry.
Let's all get, let's all get, eating is
Kate Long (01:07):
fine.
You gotta like this.
Matt Heinz (01:08):
It's one thing I didn't plan.
I had this whole schedule of, we're gonnado these episodes when it's busy in here.
And it's busy when there's lunch.
But guess what?
You don't get to do if you're doingshows during lunch, eat lunch.
Veena Vadgama (01:18):
But lunch starts at 12:45.
That's not lunch time.
That's time.
That's snack time.
No, that's why that's toolate for That's Pacific time.
Like Uhuh, my stomach waslike, what's going on?
Matt Heinz (01:27):
It's too late for lunch.
Like this is snack, but theybe like second breakfast.
You just need to workon the mealtime check.
So that's breakfast
Kate Long (01:33):
my boys have.
Two of each.
First and second breakfast,first and second dinner, lunch.
I don't know.
They're on their own at schooland like, how old are your boys?
They're all teenagers.
Yeah.
See, there you go.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (01:44):
My oldest, just turned 14 and he is now getting to the
point where he is eating everything.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And by everything I mostly justmean carbs and processed food.
Veena Vadgama (01:52):
Yes.
How they can do that.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (01:54):
There's one aisle at Costco that feeds my children.
I don't know how they stay alive.
My god.
I don't wanna see what theirinside look like at this place.
That is amazing.
That's pretty much.
That's pretty much it.
Kate Long (02:01):
Maybe you can have the CMO of Costco on next.
Matt Heinz (02:05):
Yeah.
But as you both know, there's aparenting channel in CMO Coffee Talk.
There's a sandwich parenting group.
Oh, I about that.
Which is about, and think about sandwichparenting is when you're parenting your
kids is starting to parent your parents.
Veena Vadgama (02:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm in sandwich parenting.
I'll join that.
Matt Heinz (02:18):
So let's talk about that then.
Veena Vadgama (02:20):
Yeah, sure.
Matt Heinz (02:20):
Yeah.
We can talk about all these things.
So, modern CM Oing, I don'teven know what that means.
I kind of made it up.
Either of you have an idea.
What if you think modern CMO do you wince?
A little bit.
Veena Vadgama (02:31):
I'll say something.
So.
Matt and I were talking about our oldestkids looking at colleges and I was looking
at a college yesterday in Dallas with him.
Oh, nice.
He's looking at business.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the majors is marketingand oh my God, is it data driven?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
In terms of what they're teachingthem, supply chain analytics, just
all the data processing, all themarketing operations side of it.
(02:54):
I went to business school a long time ago.
It wasn't about all of this stuff.
Yeah.
So I think modern CMOing, and asyou're seeing here at Forrester,
it is all about the data sets andhow do you put all that together.
And that's changed, right?
Yeah.
In the last 10, 15 years, therewas a session I just left it was
called MQL is Dead, and it wassupposed to be with some speakers.
It was a packed room.
Oh sure.
And the guy was like, howmany of y'all still use MQLs?
(03:15):
And everybody raised their hand.
Sure.
He's like, yeah.
So it's a nice idea, but we'restill kind of stuck in this way.
So I guess modern CM Oing isfinally trying to get past that.
What do you think?
Kate Long (03:24):
Well, I sort of have two thoughts.
One is I used a term last week onCMO Coffee Talk that apparently
everyone didn't know, which wasabout keeping your knees bent.
Veena Vadgama (03:34):
Oh, you were the one
Kate Long (03:35):
That was me.
I remember that.
Which essentially itmeans remaining agile.
Right?
It was a basketballthing you played, right?
Yeah, it was Right, exactly.
Otherwise.
How are you gonna play defenseif your knees aren't bent?
Matt Heinz (03:45):
That confused a lot of people.
Kate Long (03:47):
I didn't mean to.
Yeah.
So I love it.
So bad way to characterizeit, but I think agility.
Yeah.
So I was just commenting, I was meetingwith somebody over in the 6sense, lounge.
And, I was talking about, so I justrecently took this role at Crunchbase
and I actually was in the direct toconsumer space for two years before that.
(04:07):
And then before that I was in B2B.
So I haven't been toForrester in a few years.
Mm-hmm.
And I haven't used the traditionalB2B tool set in a few years.
It is night and day from 2022.
I am having conversations with thesereps from these companies thinking I know
what they do, but I don't anymore becauseeverybody's integrated AI and everybody's
(04:30):
talking to everybody else and well,everybody's using the same buzzwords.
And so I think there's something aboutjust always needing to be learning and
open and agile because it's changingfaster than any one of us I think would've
ever expected when we got started.
Veena Vadgama (04:46):
Yeah, and it's the marketing operations hire now.
Yes.
Is one of the most critical, right,when you're first starting in a group.
And also I have been in orgs thatthey're so over rotated on the tools
and the measuring that they can'tmake heads or tails out of anything.
'cause it's just like, youdon't get fired for getting IBM.
It's like you don't get firedfor putting in a bunch of tools.
(05:06):
Right.
And having a bunch of metrics.
Well, yeah, you do.
Kate Long (05:08):
Even if they don't talk to each other.
Exactly.
And they're not delivering ROI Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (05:13):
Kind of gluttonous.
Matt Heinz (05:14):
So, you mentioned Veena, you mentioned data sets and back to those
of us that have been around for a while,the corner of the realm in marketing
has always been, how much budget do youhave and how much media can you buy?
And, where are you putting your ads andhow many of those ads are generating MQLs,
well increasingly the data is replacingthat media spend as the coin of the realm.
Like the better data you have, the morelikely you could actually orchestrate the
(05:35):
right behaviors and campaigns independentof how much money you spend on media.
Veena Vadgama (05:41):
Well, I'll say that.
My sweet spot from, fractionalmarketing, whatever I've been doing
for two years now it's all B2B SaaS,less than 10 million in revenue.
Right.
So we are forced to startwith the end in mind.
Yeah.
'cause you have such a smallbudget, you have very little runway.
So we do focus on that data.
I think we're very good at it in ourspace, because we don't have a choice.
(06:02):
We have to look at the average sales.
We have to look at the ICP.
We have to work backwards from what's ourtarget for the next couple of quarters.
And then we decide ourspend based on that.
Right.
So that's the one luxury I think whenyou work in a smaller, little world.
Yeah.
You there's a lot more connection.
Kate Long (06:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, the other thing toois that right now at Crunchbase
we're starting to evolve our model.
We started out very muchas a PLG organization.
We still have that, but nowwe're moving into direct sales.
And really selling datainto the enterprise.
So we have a lot of data right now,but it works for the old model.
(06:40):
And so a huge part of my job isfiguring out what data do we have.
And how can it be used for thenew model and where are our gaps?
How do I augment it?
Because we're not a under $10million company, but we still have
to make sure we're landing theright leads with the right rep.
(07:00):
None of this big fancy B2C spend.
Right.
Veena Vadgama (07:03):
Kate, I'm curious, what's your process for looking
at that tool or that data setand determining how valid it is.
Kate Long (07:08):
Right.
And so what I'm trying to do, I'mstarting with the end in mind.
There was a session that happenedearlier in one of the tracks about,
the CMO and the B2B marketing orreally being a driver of growth.
And I know I joined Crunchbasewith that as my primary mandate.
And so it's essentially going,okay, here's our growth target.
(07:29):
We're working on our account list.
Now, what kind of data do we need to beable to get those account lists Right.
And start talking to them.
And one of the things, for example,that we know we need to work on
is, our existing customer base.
So we have a ton of data, frompeople who use the platform, but we
haven't done anything with it to thenfeed into the direct sales model.
(07:52):
Interesting.
And so some of it is about figuringout how are we hitting those
growth metrics and some of it'sabout the lowest hanging fruit.
Yes.
That's right in front of you.
I don't wanna spend on something crazyexternal if there's actually a lot we can
do internally to get the ball rolling.
Veena Vadgama (08:05):
You know, on Coffee Talk we've had April Dunford speak
a few times I think she's amazing.
Right?
So she talks about thesehappy customers mm-hmm.
And being able to work from that.
Mm-hmm.
So it kind of sounds like that'swhat you're thinking about as well.
Kate Long (08:17):
Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (08:17):
Yeah.
Kate Long (08:17):
Yeah.
I think that's a goodway to characterize it.
Veena Vadgama (08:19):
I like that.
Kate Long (08:20):
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (08:20):
Guys, there's a booth across from us here, Kate, I don't know if you
can see it, but Veena, you can see it.
They have puppies.
They have puppies.
There's puppies in the booth.
Veena Vadgama (08:26):
I'm gonna give credit to Lead2Pipeline.
Shout out to Lead2Pipeline.
I can't.
So there's a therapy dog right herethat I've been wanting to go pet.
Cute.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But no, I can't see them.
Pipelines got quite thecrowd, ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah.
Because of the, puppies.
Adorable puppies I can't That
Kate Long (08:42):
is brilliant.
Blame them.
Matt Heinz (08:43):
Um, oh man.
When you do a show like this, we'veall been around long enough, you've
done a billion of these shows.
As much as we joke about it,that's pretty brilliant, right?
Like we're putting puppies inyour, because we're sitting
here talking about pipeline.
Veena Vadgama (08:54):
Now's a conversation they must have had.
Yeah.
And
then they have a video.
In their booth that's showingall these puppies playing.
I wonder if it's connected toan adoption agency that's local.
Wouldn't that be cool?
Well, it says
Matt Heinz (09:05):
puppy adoption.
Veena Vadgama (09:07):
It's, it's a puppy adoption.
Wanna talk of that?
So now Kate's
Matt Heinz (09:09):
really thinking about this.
Yeah.
Look at that little thing.
Anyway, yeah.
Way off topic.
Yeah.
All right.
So I dunno how you pivot to that fromteam management, but we're gonna mm-hmm.
When you come in as a new CMO, soyou're new at Crunchbase, you inherit
a team, you inherit a group of peers.
How do you start to build trustand credibility coming in cold?
Kate Long (09:28):
Oh gosh.
That's always hard to do.
We happen to be a fully remote company,so I personally find it even harder.
Mm-hmm.
I really love getting toknow a whole person mm-hmm.
And understanding what they're all about.
I guess in front of thescreen and off screen too.
Yeah, because there'sno longer that divide.
(09:50):
And that's, harder to do, remotely.
So typically, I'll start by justbeing really open and authentic
and honest about who I am.
And when I do that, it tends toengender like a similar response.
Yeah.
As quickly as I possibly can, I makesure I'm just getting one-on-ones with
everyone and I treat those one-on-ones.
(10:10):
Much more like a getting to know youthan about a, give me the laundry list
of what you're working on kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
And then, I took the opportunityjust being here at Forrester.
I brought four people from my teamwho we are spread out all over the
country as a really great opportunityfor us to spend time together.
Yes.
For them to start to learn more inservice of this new direct sales
model we're gonna be rolling out.
(10:31):
So it's not a playbook, it's just littlebits and pieces of here and there.
And I think some of it dependson what you're walking into.
If you're walking into a situation likeme where they haven't had a leader for
a little bit, yeah, it's all roses.
'cause everybody'sexcited to have a leader.
If you're walking into asituation where someone's been
ousted, that is a whole nother
. Matt Heinz: yeah.
You say no playbook, but you justwalked through a bunch of steps
(10:52):
that I think that's a playbook.
Okay.
I don't have it written down.
Matt Heinz (10:54):
Like a checklist is a playbook.
Right.
Fair enough.
Are looking something glossy.
Just it's fancy.
Just in my, no, she just
Veena Vadgama (11:00):
knows her steps.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (11:01):
So, Veena, I'm curious from your perspective as a fractional
CMO and not necessarily with, Imean, the question for you is not
with your team, but with your peers.
What are the nuances of building trustand credibility with your leadership
team peers when you are fractional.
Veena Vadgama (11:16):
Yeah.
One of the benefits about being fractionalis that you do have a limited time, right?
Yeah.
With the leadership team.
So you have to get in, getthe work done, and get out.
So when I'm managing a team full time,just like Kate said, I bring in the user
manuals, I discuss what's, what makingyou tick, why are you taking this job?
Are you trying to get a paycheck?
Are you trying to move in your career?
(11:37):
So I try to really get to know 'emwhen you're at a fractional level,
they brought you in to solve a problem.
Yeah.
And so you don't spend alot of time on that stuff.
And sometimes it's nice 'cause you justhave to focus on getting the work done.
But, it's also why fractionalwork is usually temporary.
Right.
Not long term.
Because once you've got the problem solvedor the problem underway, you do exit.
You're not building those sort oflong-term relationships as much
(11:58):
as you would be if it's full time.
Kate Long (11:59):
Do you find that difficult?
How long is a typical engagement thatyou have, and if these people are key
to solving that problem, but you don'thave the time to, establish that.
Veena Vadgama (12:08):
Yeah, so where we work at 5 1 2 Financial, we've had, three
models that we bring in and, mostlyour engagements are between six months.
And above.
Okay.
So we've had one client for oneand a half years, for example.
Okay.
So we'll come in and I'll justmanage their internal marketing team.
So those are all full-timers,but I'm managing them part-time.
In that scenario, I do get to knowthem because they're there full-time.
(12:30):
I wanna make sure that they're motivatedand they're happy and it's all going well.
Sometimes I'll bring in my part-timemarketing executors on top of strategy.
And so I know my team, so we allhave that, nice little bond already.
And then sometimes I'm justin trying to solve a problem.
Yeah.
And in those situations,get in and get out.
Matt Heinz (12:48):
You mentioned Veena earlier, this concept of product market fit.
I'm not doing a verynice job transitioning.
We're just gonna go there.
I love it.
I don't think a lot ofpeople think about that.
Veena Vadgama (12:56):
Oh, that's because they haven't had the problem.
I bet, you have that problem.
That's all you think about.
You know, it's not that easy.
Matt Heinz (13:03):
It's really not that easy.
And I think like if you go to asales team and say, what do you need?
Many of them are gonna say, I need leads.
It's like, no you don't.
Leads is a manifestation of a marketthat demands what you're selling.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So if the market understands andcovets the solution you have,
that solves the problem they have.
That's it.
That's a version of product market fit.
So if we can nail product marketfit, I'm not saying that you
(13:26):
build that, they will come.
I'm not saying like if you nail that,everyone's gonna come to your doorstep,
but the response will be better,your conversion rates will be higher,
your sales cycle will be shorter.
Yeah.
So if you tell a sales team, if you'regonna call someone and say what you
represent, you want a market that'slike, oh hell yeah, I have that problem.
I wanna solve for that.
Right.
But easier said than done.
(13:47):
Yeah.
And so in the conversations we have,most people come and just say, we need to
build demand, we need to build pipeline.
But there isn't necessarily even adocumented product market fit that tells
me that they're actually onto something.
Veena Vadgama (14:00):
Yeah, one of the things I've noticed with my clients is that,
there's a lot of smaller, B2B, 2 million,4 million revenue companies that are
struggling with product market fit.
And so they'll go to a Gartner anda Forrester, I'm not trying to,
discount where we are today, butthey'll go to Forrester and be like,
I'm gonna sign a massive, multi-yearengagement so you guys can help me
with my product market fit problem.
Will these analyst firms.
(14:21):
They work on mature markets.
Yeah.
Majority of the time.
So to have a mature market personcome in and help you establish product
market fit, when you have an innovativenew, nobody knows this thing exists.
Like one of my clients, the CEO,was like, we compete with Excel
and our price point is $50,000.
I'm like, well, we're gonnahave a hard time explaining to
people that they can get Excelor they can get this for $50,000.
(14:44):
So you have to really work on that.
And I think product market fitsis an all day, all night problem.
A lot of people just hiredemand gen 'cause they think
that's what all they need.
And I'm like, Nope, productmarketing is gonna help you get
that demand gen thing started.
Kate Long (14:57):
Yeah.
And I'm curious if either of you haveseen this, I think we're starting
to see a little bit of a correction.
I'm starting to see alittle more out there.
In support of brand and product marketingis sort of the understanding that
these are like long-term demand plays.
It's still all about demand.
You still need to generate the demand,but these are the long-term plays
(15:20):
and they're not necessarily gonnabe the thing you can automatically
translate into an MQL, right?
But they're going to be the thingsthat smooth the glide path for
that sales conversation so thatthe sales person isn't taking an
hour to explain who you are, whatyou do, why you're worth of value.
Right?
It's the kind of things that havepeople keep you in their mind.
(15:43):
If they're not ready to buy now, they'reready to buy in six months or a year.
And of course that's harder tomeasure and everybody needs to see
those results today, today, today.
But I think we're learningthat those results are really
like short term in nature.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like I'm starting to seea little bit more out there that's
a correction back, but I guess whatI would say is, 'cause I was just on
(16:05):
the job market, I felt like I startedseeing more brand focused positions.
I started seeing a little morewords like positioning right?
Like out there.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (16:16):
I want that to be true.
Mm-hmm.
And I know that there are somecompanies that are doing that.
Even in the B2B space, I'm seeingcompanies do everything from just
investing more in their communities,investing more in customer advisory
boards, investing in even sortof activations beyond just, the
normal things in their industry.
Like Smartsheet has beenheavily into Formula One.
Yeah.
You've got a lot of, B2B brandsthat are heavily into sports and
(16:38):
golf and tennis and other things.
Yeah.
Where it's not just about havingsomeone's logo on your sleeve,
it's the activation around that.
Right.
It's getting a golfer to come do puttinglessons for your customers, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you could argue some ofthose are lead gen related, but
that investment in the logo onsomeone's car, that's brand right?
And that's a brand activation.
You can't measure thatpurely on pipeline, right?
My eyebrow went up becauseI think everyone wants that.
(17:00):
But when it comes down to it, when itcomes down to how much you spend on
that, like even just in the half daywe've been doing this session here, I've
had my, oh man, that's a great idea.
We should have like a podcast booth.
Well, this isn't free, right?
You gotta spend money on the spaceand the equipment and everything else.
And it's not crazy expensive, but.
A dollar for dollar on that whenyou've got a board or leadership team
saying like, how much pipeline didwe get out of every dollar we spent?
(17:22):
I think when the rubber meets theroad, people just want pipeline.
We can argue this forever, that you knowwhy that balance should exist and yet
the reality is it's still pretty Yeah.
Unbalanced.
Yeah.
Veena Vadgama (17:33):
Well, you can do anything with your budget.
If you can explain to the boardhow it added to the bottom line.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, at the end of the day, youcan talk about how the puppies here,
added triple their leads hopefullyat the show, which ultimately,
tripled maybe, opportunities.
Matt Heinz (17:53):
You can A/B test puppies
Veena Vadgama (17:54):
and yeah, you could.
So I'm saying, even the logo on therace car can be attributed somehow.
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (18:01):
Wouldn't it be cool if we had data here where like you, okay.
Like that booth has plush dolls.
That booth has chocolate,that booth has puppies.
Who's got the most traffic?
I can eyeball this right now.
I mean, to tell you who's winning.
Kate Long (18:14):
Yeah.
But is it the right traffic?
Is it qualified traffic?
Matt Heinz (18:16):
Well, but that's the conference's job, right?
Right.
So if I'm looking at a place likethis thing, I want to attract
mid-market to enterprise B2B marketers.
This is your shot, right?
If you were gonna have puppiesat Dreamforce, where it's like a
hundred thousand people and you'vegot developers and marketers and
salespeople and everybody, I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so you still gotta do that math.
Yeah.
Kate Long (18:37):
I do wanna come back to the question of, you were saying as
long as you can attribute the spendto the bottom line, I think the issue
becomes a short term, long term.
Like what is the boards view ofwhen that bottom line should hit?
Yes.
And I think that's thereally, really big tension.
Yes.
I think particularly in the lastfew years, especially just given
how tight things have been.
(18:58):
And,
Veena Vadgama (18:58):
and I'll do a plug from my article on LinkedIn, why
marketing cannot Report to Salesbecause I believe very, very,
Kate Long (19:05):
I'm gonna need to read that one very, very consistently.
That you tell No,
Veena Vadgama (19:08):
just real quick.
I was just saying, you know, marketinghas to think of that long term, right?
The puppies.
Mm-hmm.
And it has to think of what'shappening this quarter.
Yeah.
Right.
And if you report to sales,you're only thinking about
what's happening this quarter.
This quarter, and then youdon't get to do the puppies.
Yeah.
See how I keep bringing it back?
Back to the puppies?
To puppies.
Kate, what are you thinking?
Oh, no, all I was gonna
Kate Long (19:25):
say is I wrote an article about why product marketing
shouldn't report to product.
Veena Vadgama (19:28):
Ooh.
I would read that one.
You and I are
Kate Long (19:30):
cut from a very similar cloth.
Veena Vadgama (19:32):
I would agree with that premise and I wanna read it.
Matt Heinz (19:37):
This has been a great conversation.
Kate Long (19:38):
See, this is
Matt Heinz (19:38):
where, this is segue.
We're all, old enough to havekids and I think we all have
teenagers at this point point.
We do.
What does raising teenagersteach you about B2B marketing.
Veena Vadgama (19:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Shoot.
Matt Heinz (19:53):
About that.
That was, that was unfair.
Well, that was kind of, that was kindof click bait without really the answer.
Gimme time.
It was click.
It was click bait.
Yeah.
What is raising teenagersand is your, are you a boys?
Kate Long (20:02):
I'm a boy.
Mom, boy, mom.
Three boys.
Three boys.
Three boys.
That's why I liked you.
You have three boys.
You're a three point mom too.
How many eggs do you go through in a week?
Veena Vadgama (20:12):
A lot.
Eggs.
Oh my god.
Before eggs and
Kate Long (20:13):
bread.
Before coming to Phoenix.
I am not even kidding you.
On Friday I bought 72 eggs.
Count them 72 when I left on Mondaymorning, 24 we're already gone.
Oh my God.
And eggs are expensive.
Do you know what the pro tip is?
Matt Heinz (20:27):
Get chickens.
Kate Long (20:30):
I know people aren't doing that.
I just, I don't want anotherthing to take care of.
Well, I can't even keep plants alive.
I just Fair, I feel likethat would be a bad recipe.
Fair.
Matt Heinz (20:39):
Chickens are lower maintenance than cats.
We've had chickens for years.
Oh, okay.
And it does take a little extra time.
And if you think you're saving money,you're kidding yourself, you will
spend way more money on your eggs.
Well, then don't tellme that's the secret.
But you don't have to go to the market.
Like, we have 10 chickensat this time of year.
We get 8 to 10 eggs a day.
Oh, that's amazing.
They just keep showing up.
And between kids and baking and everythingelse, we go through a lot of eggs, so.
(20:59):
Mm-hmm.
They're not cheap eggs,but they are also fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
Veena Vadgama (21:03):
I've been trying to answer your question.
Mm-hmm.
Which was a good one.
And my only comment that I'll make isthat understanding how to parent my
children has made me better at marketing.
'cause the targeting is so critical.
Okay.
And how you talk to a teenager.
Okay.
You learn that.
Not so quick.
I wish I learned it quicker,but I'm better at it now with
(21:25):
my second teenager there now.
But yeah, I don't know about B2B.
That's a good one.
Kate Long (21:30):
No, but I think that's right.
If you're nurturing an audienceover a long period of time, the
way you talk to your teenager, it'sdifferent than how you talk to them
when they were in middle schoolthan they were in elementary school.
So it's like the whole customerlife cycle right there.
Hundred percent.
A hundred percent in front of you.
Veena Vadgama (21:45):
We were going to visit a college.
Like I said, on the way back, he wasdriving the car so he gets to do the
music and he kept changing the song afterevery 30 seconds, and I'm like, you listen
to Spotify, like you listen to TikTok.
He just couldn't getthrough the whole song.
This whole generation,man, I'm telling you.
I know,
Matt Heinz (22:01):
I know.
My youngest son is really intobaseball, but what that means
is he likes watching highlights.
Ah, he has never sat through a wholegame like I've taken him to games and
he can't sit there the whole game.
Even if you keep buying food, hewon't wanna sit the whole game.
Yeah.
It's a different attention span.
It is.
It totally is.
It's so different.
It totally is.
It's scary as
Kate Long (22:17):
heck, I think my learning of parenting, especially teenagers, as
it pertains to B2B marketing is like.
Don't hold anything too tightly.
Let everything roll off your back.
Again, maybe this again,like a knees bent.
Hey everybody, back to the bad analogy.
But like agility, right?
I think you parent differently foreach kid and you can't get your fur
(22:41):
up, about every little thing thatthey say and do that annoys you
because you would just constantly be
Veena Vadgama (22:47):
100%.
It's the same way.
Like
Kate Long (22:49):
you can't get your fur up every time your CEO says something stupid
or your head of sales wants something.
It's really about just being superchill and rolling with things.
Veena Vadgama (23:00):
Absolutely.
Kate Long (23:00):
So my husband, he and I are really different in that way.
Yeah.
We ended up balancing each other out.
There were times where he would getso frustrated with me because I wasn't
reacting to something the kids weredoing and or I would get frustrated
with him 'cause I'd be like, I don'tthink that's worth reacting to.
Matt Heinz (23:16):
So my wife sent me something the other day 'cause i'm a little too
hard on the kids, I'll admit that.
But I think she sent me somethingthat said if your kid comes downstairs
in the morning and they're happyand they're talking to you, do not
bug them about their messy room.
Do not bug them aboutleaving milk on the table.
Do not get on their caseabout little things.
Just enjoy the moment.
Enjoy the morning.
Yes.
Yes.
And it was a good reminder, andI wish I heard it five years ago.
(23:38):
Yes,
Veena Vadgama (23:39):
I try.
I'm not good at this either, but I tryreally hard, like every day I wanna
give them more positive affirmations.
than criticisms, right?
Yes.
And so if at the end of the day ifmy balance was more positive, then
you know, that I feel like, okay,that's a win for me as a parent.
Mm-hmm.
'cause man, I've had days whereit's been not that way, it's bad.
Well, and I think it's even a win if
Kate Long (23:59):
they're, especially when they're teenagers, and they're boys
that they're just talking to you.
So in the morning, what I'll do,because my job is now fully remote, I
will wake up when they wake up, I willmake my coffee and I will just sit
there with them while they're gettingready, they may not say anything to me.
But I'm there if they want to.
And then if they do say something,I'm like, oh my God, they love me.
(24:19):
I know I
Veena Vadgama (24:19):
got validation.
Oh my God, they thought of me.
We're the puppies.
We're.
Matt Heinz (24:29):
So I think maybe the last question I wanna ask you guys,
'cause we're all parents of kidsthat, rely on us on a daily basis.
It sounds like we've got, spouses thatcan chip in when we're traveling, but
as important as events like this are,how do you make that trade off to
decide when you come to an event likethis and when you need to stay home?
I think about this a lot asthe events have come back.
For me as a consultant, like goingto events is a big part of our
(24:51):
visibility and biz dev, and yet Idon't wanna be gone all the time.
Yeah.
So you gotta pick your spots.
Veena Vadgama (24:56):
I find as a mom of three, which you can
relate to, I get re-energizedat these sorts of conferences.
I learn, I get outta my comfort zone.
I take care of myself for acouple days, which is really nice.
I come back, I'm a better parent.
Mm-hmm.
So to me, doing this a couple timesa year, at least it helps me at home.
Yeah.
Believe it or not.
Kate Long (25:15):
Yeah, I very much feel the same way.
And I've had the good fortuneever since my kids were young.
I was the one who was always travelingand thank goodness that my spouse
had a job where he didn't have to.
And I always found that getting away waslike what I needed to be reinvigorated.
But that said, it doesalways come with a trade off.
I still don't make the decisionslightly, but it's definitely more
(25:38):
on a case by case basis or it'smore on a like, they play baseball.
Which season is it?
Okay.
I am missing a bunch of my kids' baseballgames this week, but which season is it?
Or is it during their finals week?
I'm not gonna leave during finals week.
So some of it has to do with thecalendar at home too, you know?
Yeah.
Matt Heinz (25:55):
Yeah.
It's wrestling season, it'smiddle school wrestling season.
Ooh.
And my middle son's eighth grade.
And he's not the world's best wrestler,Uhhuh, but he really enjoys it.
It gives him a lot of confidence.
Yeah.
As a, middle schooler that we allstruggle with in middle school.
Mm-hmm.
And, to be there, whether hewins or loses, it's a big deal.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that earlier in my careerI justified traveling a lot.
'cause I'm like, well,I don't miss birthdays.
(26:15):
I don't miss first days of school.
I don't miss weekends.
But you know what I do miss is Tuesday.
Aw.
Yep.
You miss those midweek moments.
And the older I get, themore mistakes I make.
I realize building relationships withmy kids is not about the big moments.
It's about the everyday moments.
It's about driving the car connect.
It's on the way to practice.
It's exactly, it's the windshield time.
It's prioritizing with eachof the kids having something
(26:35):
that is just the thing we do.
Mm-hmm.
Just the two of us.
Oh, I love that.
It doesn't even have to cost money, butit's just something that we do together.
I almost said, if you come to myhotel room and I stopped myself
'cause that would be inappropriate.
Yeah, that's inappropriate.
Kate Long (26:47):
But
but on my bedside
Matt Heinz (26:49):
table right now is the first, book of the Wings of Fire series.
Mm-hmm.
Do you know the Wings of Fire?
Yes, I do.
And so it's a, young adult.
I don't even know if it's a young adult.
It's a scholastic book, right?
Yeah.
It's about dragons that are supposedto have a prophecy and a destiny.
Yes.
And so my middle son, I am readingthis because my middle son loves
this series and he's on like book 12.
Oh my gosh.
And he's trying to explain it to me andhe is like, daddy, you should read it.
(27:11):
And I'm thinking the last thingI want to do is read this week.
And I'm into it now and I'm like, God,this is definitely written for a junior.
Oh, that share with me.
We're gonna have something to talk about.
Yes.
And then I'm gonna be like,well, I wonder what happens now.
No spoilers, Nick.
And it's one of thosemoments, you know, you get.
Veena Vadgama (27:24):
I'm into Outlander, right now.
You think I can get mykids to read Outlander?
No, I don't think so.
Is that,
Kate Long (27:28):
isn't that a little Yeah, I know.
Okay.
Yeah, it's a joke.
Just, yeah.
I was like, wait a second.
Took me a second there.
But it's a good story.
Scottish.
We got Bridgeton.
Veena Vadgama (27:36):
That's love.
Some Bridgerton.
Well, you know, not with the 11-year-old.
Matt Heinz (27:43):
Well, this has been fun.
I'm glad we did this together 'causeit would've been fun separately.
So good.
Veena.
Kate, thank you so much for being here.
What are you looking forwardto the next day and a half?
Veena Vadgama (27:53):
I'm gonna continually go to all the sessions where I do
not understand anything in the title.
Yeah.
Perfect.
'cause those are the ones where
Kate Long (28:00):
I,
Veena Vadgama (28:01):
that's a great strategy.
That's a great
Kate Long (28:03):
strategy.
What does that mean?
And I am going to, my team and Ialready did a split up so that we
all go and get different content.
And so we're all doing learning againstsome of the big things we've gotta do.
And I of course look forward tothe sessions, but I look forward
to the team debrief too, becauseit's us coming back to together and
(28:24):
sharing all of our learnings, whichis the only way it sticks anyway.
It's true.
Matt Heinz (28:29):
All right.
Thank you so much for being here, Matt.
Thank you.
Thanks Matt.
Look forward to see you out and aboutat Club 6 at the parties, the raves
and the all-nighters later tonight.
Yes, the all-nighters, we hadsomeone come on earlier, a hundred
bucks if you can guess who it was.
So another CMO was on earlier,and I found out that she was
a DJ when she was in college.
And she called it the Saturday Night Gig,but it was 5:00 to 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
(28:50):
And that's not the kind of Saturday night.
Oh.
I'm thinking of, that.
Kate Long (28:55):
Well, they've got a DJ out there and I was thinking to
myself, it's probably the best gig.
It's a daytime gig and you laugh at allthese nerdy tech guys as they walk past.
And you probably getpaid better than a bar.
Matt Heinz (29:06):
I often think that the musical acts they bring onto these things.
I just make fun of people.
I still remember whenMetallica played Dreamforce.
Oh my God.
Veena Vadgama (29:13):
They had Journey at Cisco Live one year Journey
I've never seen, men run
Matt Heinz (29:17):
How fortunate are we,
that for your job, you go to aconference that has Train, right?
Yes.
And it has Metallica and Journey.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
But the look on some of their faceswhen they're in a convention center.
Yes.
And they're hopefully gettingpaid pretty well, but half the
people are paying attention.
The other half are just like,this is not the future they
Kate Long (29:39):
envisioned for themselves.
No.
No.
Well, I
Matt Heinz (29:41):
assume the Metallica was gonna show up a Dreamforce and
play like the more pop songs thatpeople, I think they are like.
No, we're going old school.
We're gonna play Kill 'em All and Ride theLightning, do all the old stuff, and just
scare the crap out of these developers.
Kate Long (29:53):
Uhhuh sounds about
Matt Heinz (29:53):
right.
Yes.
I still have a picture, I wentwith Annika Sealey and she does
her own sort of sales consultingand she's been around for a while.
Mark Benioff worked for her in aninside sales role back in the day.
Wow.
So she's like an OG and I remember we wereat an event right before that and I said,
I'm gonna go to the Metallica concert.
And she's like.
I wasn't gonna go.
I'm like, oh, you did really good.
I said, what kind of music?
She's like, well, metal.
(30:14):
She's like, oh, go check that out.
I have a picture somewhere of her,but just this quizzical, like she's
watching, and it's this combinationof what is that and why am I here
and who dragged me to this and whenwill it be over all in one look?
It was phenomenal.
Oh, shout out Annika, I love you.
You know I tell this story and I hopeyou did enjoy some of that because
we got to be like five feet fromJames Hetfield and it was amazing.
Kate Long (30:37):
That's awesome
Veena Vadgama (30:38):
memories.
Matt Heinz (30:38):
Thank you everybody you see out there.
Veena Vadgama (30:41):
Thank you.
Have a good day.
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