S1E6: Design Isn’t Just Decoration: It’s a Tool for Systemic Change - With Matt Hocking

Curly Steve and Matt Hocking discuss the transformative power of creativity in addressing the climate crisis. Matt, founder of LEAP, a B Corp design studio, emphasises the importance of ecological and social responsibility in design. He shares his journey from early creative influences to leading at the Eden Project, where he implemented sustainable practices. Matt highlights the significance of B Corp certification, which he achieved in 2005, and the impact of his work on environmental standards. He also introduces the concept of "enoughism," advocating for balanced activism and practical steps like switching to ethical banks and adopting sustainable practices in daily life.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
What if the most powerful tool we have
for tackling the climate crisis isn't
technology or policy, but
creativity? Today's guest believes
design can do more than decorate. It can
dismantle, rebuild, and reimagine the
systems we live
by. Victor Packenac was a pioneering

(00:23):
designer, author, and educator
throughout the 20th century. He said,
"Design, if it's to be ecologically
responsible and socially responsive,
must be revolutionary and
radical." Hi, I'm Curly Steve and we're
searching for a greener room.

(00:51):
Today I'm joined by Matt Hawking,
founder of Leap, a design studio built
on purpose and action. Matt brings a
life's work of planet centered
creativity from leading with BCorp
values to mentoring the next wave of
change makers. His approach is rooted in

(01:12):
curiosity, challenge, and doing the
work, not just talking about it. Hi,
Matt. Welcome to the show. Good morning,
and thank you for inviting me in and uh
helping me navigate Cornwall via bus.
That's uh that's great that you came on
the bus. We'll talk about that later,
but uh first of all, I'd like to go back
uh just rewind a little and tell me

(01:32):
where when did you first find creativity
and how did it come into your life?
Well, it's a good question.
Um and it's also I guess like what is
our perception of creativity but for me
in its simplest terms was was with my
father and with nature living in penic
dad was although sort of a mix between a

(01:52):
a bouncer and a scientist quite an
interesting mix he was a bouncer and he
was also a scientist um yeah he nature
was always a big part of us and nature's
natural creativity you know and um and
then lots of drawing ing doodling and
just yeah art was always thing that was
a thing in school that's the thing I

(02:14):
went after school into college that's
the thing that my job came you know
being a creative I didn't do graphic
design and illustration but I ended up
doing creative art directing other
creatives so I would say really from the
you know my first conscious awareness
um and I would do these elaborate
creative things in the garden I would do

(02:35):
elaborate creative things with paper and
card indoors and silver foil, you name
it. There was making playing. I didn't
have things like action men or anything
like that. It was either n natural
creatures, rocks, crystals, um paper
cards.
So, yeah. And so, so would you suggest
that uh creativity has always come from

(02:57):
nature and nature's always come from
creativity? Is it it's always been
naturally aligned? Yeah. I think, you
know, the the
ultimate creative and is is nature.
We're inspired by everything around us,
you know, whether it's the stars to the
plants to the Fibonacci spiral that's
used in, you know, um you know like
sunfl well is natural part of

(03:18):
sunflowers, the golden arm, you know, to
then when humans are creating something
like the seed at Eden project which is
inspired by the Fibonacci by Sepia
Randall Page. Um, so these it's all
around us all the signs if we can feel
and hear it. And actually, Curly, they
they say there's like a point where
you're either a creative or you're an

(03:39):
accountant or that but ultimately I
don't believe that that's the case.
Accountancy is just another form of
creativity. Absolutely. You know, it's
the way our minds work at super speed to
do that. It's a creative pathway. And so
it's only for me the school system at
times well now at all times this kind of
unfortunately hundred-year-old archaic

(04:01):
system that needs a bit of a reboot. are
not going to get on a, you know, a sofa,
but it's more like that we are then
funneled into, oh, you're creative or
you're sporty, you're this, but
ultimately it's creative. And then we
get to a stage later on where only some
people say, oh, I'm creative. Like, and
then other people, yeah, I can't draw, I
can't do this. Doesn't mean they're not
creative, not expressive. Absolutely. I

(04:23):
totally agree. and and and we'll get on
to um whether you think people are
creative uh whether you think everybody
can be creative later on, but um tell me
your your journey from because obviously
so you've you've been creative since you
were this big. So tell me about your
journey from this big to maybe to Eden.

(04:44):
Yeah. So I'll try and keep this as brief
as I can. Um
so yeah, my journey to to get to Eden.
So school was great and I drew and I did
graffiti and I things like that good
stuff and naughty stuff. Um and and then
I knew my parents are very kind of cool

(05:06):
with me kind of thing. There was never
like a big push you must do this must do
that. And I guess later on a really good
example of not having pressure on me. Um
I did good at school. Um but where I
excelled was in the art and the
technical drawing space. And strangely
although I could have just gone on to
six form and had the easy pathway and

(05:26):
you know geography was my big love but
um I love geography tectonic plates and
colder and things like that love a bit
of old myth and and stuff but history
wasn't for me and I think academically I
had enough so I just put myself into the
creative arena and that meant going down
to Falmouth at the time university of
Fmouth had an outpost at Campborn in the
block flats there a graphic design and

(05:48):
technical drawing I chose the wrong
course technical drawing cuz a few
friends were going. Mhm. Turns out
that's like drawing precisely car
engines and things like that or book
covers. But actually later on in life
that served me well because I'm very
good at art directing other creatives.
So did all that different went to
another art college. So you finished

(06:10):
university? I never finished university.
Right. left a term before the end after
four years um because I
felt well low I didn't get on with the
head teacher I didn't agree with his
teaching practice which was everyone
needs to be his style and I was like but
what about my style
um and um I was getting lower grades I

(06:33):
had a brilliant bunch of supportive
friends I didn't want to leave pride my
parents had backed me to go there I was
in Swansea but I left in the end and
Actually flipping forwards um six months
after working on a bar and a little bit
of travel. I end up going to a job
interview. I walked in realized I knew
nothing about typography and graphic
design and that's what they were about.

(06:54):
And I went into the interview. It was a
Friday. I was the last interview the day
in talk and I said I'm really sorry. I'm
completely wasting your time. I don't
understand all the things you got. And
they said, "Look, it's been a long week.
You're the last candidate. You're here.
You come up from Cormal." I showed him
my folio. I can definitely draw and and
sketch and concept. I got the job. Oh,
awesome. And I've played that forward

(07:15):
ever since. It's slightly different
story, but yeah, when that never judge a
book by its cover, be your most
authentic self and um and I'll always
have a conversation because you never
know where it'll go. But yeah, then
after that, that was then like eight
years. This is my Tor Bay bit. and uh
eight years of being in Tor Bay and
having a base there and these two exachi

(07:37):
directors which I didn't even know what
Tachis was and things like that at the
time um had moved down London West End
work uh West Country Prices was their
line and then they craft helped me like
reduce my more complex illustrations to
graphic and then I started really
understanding typography and the power

(07:58):
of kerning and baselines and color
palettes and panones.
And then after that, you know, various
ups and downs, four redundancies and
lots of freelance working with Sky,
Lego,
uh, Glastonbury, all sorts of things.
And um, and I got disillusioned in it.
This had by the age of 29, it was too

(08:19):
easy. Okay. So, I was just making things
and people were just going, "Yeah." And
paying me money and there was no
challenge and
um, and it didn't feel like creativity.
It just felt like well maybe that's what
everyone wants it to be so effortless
but I wanted more of a challenge more
meaning more worth and um and and that's

(08:39):
where then I got a call randomly from my
dad going oh there's this Eden project
in Cornwall it's three miles from where
we used to live there we go so I didn't
do any interview preparation I um uh
didn't really research Eden I just
thought I'm a graphic designer I'll go
partly for my dad didn't think I'd get a

(09:00):
job and went down and went into a port
cabin because when Eden was more port
cabin than anything and then they had
the main site but for the next three
years I was in port cabin city as it was
called and so yeah went down there they
kind of looked me up and down had one of
my toughest interviews so one of the
reasons I went for the interview as well
Cody was because I had been head-hunted

(09:20):
for a while and I didn't know what it
was to have an interview and I like to
experiment a lot what am I like in these
scenarios now
like eight years older sort of thing and
yeah um I didn't think they like me and
I was a bit cocky and they were like you
know why are you here and um I was just

(09:40):
like cuz I was dressed quite corporately
and I said well I've been in the
corporate world telecom sky Lego but
imagine you know my uh create my you
know creative world and my corporate
world meeting your environmental world
any designer worth their soul will rise
to what their c uh their client needs
and they said thanks. That was it.

(10:02):
Didn't know what the wage was. I walked
about 30 steps. So where the foundation
building is, I don't know if you know
that at Eden. Yeah. And you could look
over the pit there before all the trees.
And I looked down and went, "Oh my god,
this is my childhood. This is space and
nature, my two big loves, you know,
academically not good enough to or my
story is of not good enough to be David
Atenburgh or Neil Armstrong." And that

(10:25):
was it. And then I got a phone call
literally on the edge going, "Uh, job's
yours. When can you start?" Amazing. And
I was like, "So, um, what's the wage?"
50% pay cut. I didn't even get the
highest brand. So, yeah. And then I was
like, "Shit." Oh, then I was like, "Um,
okay. I will forever ruin this moment if
I don't step into this. You know, there

(10:45):
are plenty of jobs out there." At what
stage was Eden at that then? It had just
opened. Oh, okay. So, really and the
agency. the incumbent creative agency
they were using on retainer wasn't able
to cope with the demand of onsite yeah
material production. So I'd be the first
graphic designer and actually it's quite
a basic role and that's where the any

(11:07):
designer worth his salt is because I'd
always played a leadership role in other
agencies. I wouldn't say I'm the
greatest creative but I've just got a
good way of seeing creative potential in
both client and team member. And so I
knew I could see the future where I'd
always be going, I wish I'd done that.
And my eight-year-old self went, "Oh,
space, you know, nature. I'm in and I'll

(11:30):
figure out." So I just bought a house in
Tori as well, right? So then that was
some round trip. Hang on. We're talking
from uh Toi to St. Au. That's what 100
miles. It's a 140 mile round trip. 140
round trip. Okay. Yeah. For So for a
year I was doing that. My dad lives in
St. Norto. Um, so I did stay with him.
That was quite interesting. I was 30

(11:50):
then, moving back in with my dad. Yeah.
But actually what Eden gave me in the
sort of long-winded but rapid fire
journey of a guy with no design skills
who was creative, learning to be a
designer, getting lots of dream clients.
You think Sky and Lego would be pretty
cool people to work for. Absolutely. Um,
but that wasn't enough for me. We'll

(12:11):
talk about enoughism later. Take a 50%
pay cut. the next three years I did the
most amazing work I've ever done in my
life. It was it was something like a
soul like soul meeting soul creative
day. I don't want to get like spiritual
but it was like the two things. Oh, this
is why I had to do that journey of all
the other creative things because once I

(12:32):
was here I knew how to unpick and the
current way of producing things and then
make it all production more
environmental. And were you were you uh
were you given free reign? Yeah, I
thought they would tell me how to be,
you know, Eden's designer, a creative,
you know, and they were just like, "No,
just do it." And then I guess that's
that leadership space, isn't it? You
just step in. So the client was Eden. As

(12:54):
far as I was concerned, that means we
had to use certain papers. So we could
design on anything, but actually it
needs to be the right papers. Um, so I
went and started changing our print
supply chains. Um, and relooking at what
how we use paper. And my first comments
from printers like it's going to be
expensive. is going to be this cuz not
many people were using vegetable based
inks and recycled paper. I said, I get

(13:15):
it. You know, we will lead the way, but
recycled papers, vegetable based inks
will become the way. And I kind of knew
that in my heart. It's like a real big
knowing like the path that was already
there and you're just trusting to follow
it. And beautiful to have that uh that
uh backup from from the Eden project.
Yeah. And very necessary. Yeah. And also
costwise, you know, sustainability

(13:35):
didn't have to be more expensive, which
was the kind of conversation. And it
didn't need to also be kind of hessen
either and jute and those rough. I've
got no problems with them, but actually
I like sexy surprise environmentalism
through creativity. That's a
storytelling moment, you know, like like
why you might buy a chair and and things
like that. There's nothing at LEAP, the

(13:56):
agency that spawned out of um Eden, that
hasn't been considered from where it's
born to where it's been recycled from to
um why we've um got it in our supply
chain. I I like that. And and does does
that is that a chore for you or is that
just something that happens? Cuz that's
that's an interesting journey, isn't it?
I think for a lot of people, they have

(14:16):
to they have to think how can I do this
before they actually do it whereas Yeah.
It sounds to you like it's a DNA comes
naturally. Yeah. Yeah. It's And again, I
don't want it to sound less because I
know it's hard. You know, people get
stuck. You know, I get overwhelmed
choosing a broadband provider, but I
don't get overwhelmed choosing the paper
because I asked the questions like, you

(14:37):
know, the paper merchant might sell me
the paper that's environmental, but he
goes, "So, where's this paper from?"
They're like, "Oh, it's it's the UK." I
said, "No, where's the mill that the
paper was from?" And actually very few
papers are made in the UK, you know, and
there's some wonderful papers that sold
to businesses as eco, but they originate
in America and that's that's okay, but
for me, I would rather support, you

(14:58):
know, more localized trade routes and
stuff. And again, all of this came down
to this. It's just like um like the
Matrix, it's like I can physically feel
and see it. And the connectivity between
people, planet, and creativity uh and
material is is like just so natural.
Yeah. And um and that's what I say. So
whereas before I was kind of
disillusioned but earning a good bit of

(15:20):
money and a good bit of freedom and and
then then I came here and I found a
whole new way and I couldn't ever
imagine not working that way. So yeah so
so I was at Eden and the design team was
growing really rapidly. Uh lovely crew.
We had designer makers. So you know
where you see the exhibits those would
be made by them and some of my te art

(15:41):
team my team. Um, we had this amazing
guy, Ben Luxton, that oversaw all of us.
And in the end, there was about 16 of
us. We had maintenance people
maintaining the exhibits as well. And
you were saying earlier that you um you
wor with Chris Hines. Yeah. So Chris, I
can't remember what year Chris joined.
It was maybe a couple years after me and
he stayed a couple years after I'd left.
So I was there from like

(16:02):
2020 before I set up Leap in October
2004.
And we were invited different team
members from different sections to go on
this sort of um it's like a quite a
slightly immersive day with Chris down
at the blue bar at fourth Tower. So food
uh drink and then he was teaching us or

(16:23):
showing us what it is to think in a
triple bottom line way. Okay. Say you
know people plan it. This was new to you
then. Was it? It was because um that
would have been 2002 then. John
Elkington who originally coined the
phase I think coined it of Valans in
1968 or something like that. This is
people, profit, planet. Yeah. Yeah. The
three Ps as people would call it. Yeah.

(16:44):
Um and what we had to do is I didn't
have to do it in a graphic design thing.
I was asked to look at transport and
logistics. They divided us into sections
that we weren't and how would we do it
using our skill set and mindset to do
that job that wasn't ours. So mine was
to to get flowers to Eden from from

(17:06):
Europe, Amsterdam for the shops and what
would be the impact of it and that and
and you know I summized by the end of it
with our group it's like why are we
getting plants in the shop from abroad
right you know why don't we just say
that we only sell local yeah and things
and you know there's different things
some of the plants they sold and again

(17:27):
this isn't a a hit on Eden but you know
they had these amazing plants that
flowers from like Africa and stuff. So,
it did show you a bit of the world, but
did we need to do it is the question.
What is enough that for the expectation
of Eden? But what what I learned there
is I really love the triple bottom line
because I've never been very focused on
money. Not because I have lots of money

(17:48):
is I've always just had enough. Not, you
know, not enough if something lots of
things went wrong at once, but enough
that to have a good life in the region
that I love, Cornwall. So, all of it, it
was a coming home experience, come to
Eden. 8-year-old Matt got to be in space
in nature in a a reused quarry in

(18:10):
Corwall and suddenly bring all my design
to some of the most amazing projects
I've done, working with like Future
Harvest and the Peruvian Potato
Foundation. And that was more exciting
than the Lego stuff. And when I do
talks, I show a picture of Lego and then
pictures of all the potatoes and that
that are over in Peru where the you know
where potatoes originate from. Yeah.

(18:32):
Yeah. And so all these things I bumped
into David Atra once came in to work and
he's sitting there at reception in Port
Gabin Sea. I'm like it's not David
Atenburgh, it's Dave Adra. Wow. Why?
Really super nervous. That sort of thing
happened. you know Ray Mia was there the
explorer yeah spent time with him and
I'd also just before I started Eden I've

(18:53):
been up in Tibet and there was a lady
coming to do a storytelling workshop
around the oral stories of traditions
and we don't have um in the UK many oral
traditions Celtic nations do and
especially tribal nations and I just
come back from Tibet and she had left
Tibet in the exile with the Dalai Lama
so we went off on side and she was just

(19:14):
asking how was my time in Tibet and how
did it deal and I'd gone to bet when I
was 29 and before it was open to tourism
properly. So, uh yeah, it was a really I
mean Eden was just groundbreaking,
wasn't it? I mean, it still is. Yeah.
Yeah,
absolutely. Must have been a great place
to um to to work and be a part of. Yeah.
I mean, I guess if you think of it like
a hive or an ecosystem, it was it was

(19:36):
just really rich and vibrant. Um yeah,
it would take two hours sometimes to
cross the site and as a designer, we're
in a lucky place for you. Two hours cuz
you were chatting to everybody. Oh,
everybody chatted back and it's hugging.
So, lots there lots and lots of hugging.
Um, and in the end, I stopped going out
a little bit because I wasn't hitting
the deadlines and it was very deadline
intensive space. Um, but the beautiful

(19:58):
thing about creativity
of any sorts, but especially being a
designer is you're we're an intersection
between people, planet, education, and
future. And so, like when you're on
site, everybody interacts with you.
You're sort of friends with everyone and
those interactions are really
important process. Yeah. And you're

(20:20):
neither high or low. You're just right.
You're just in the middle. And um so
friends with operations and car park and
and friends with catering because they
need their menus and then the foundation
with the science teams and the education
teams and the leadership teams. So we
got to really be part of the whole
ecosystem. So, uh, it's interesting you

(20:41):
say that because part of my creativity
is, uh, that occasionally I'll go and
buy a magazine on something that I have
no interest in whatsoever and force
myself to sit down and read it from
cover to cover. And without doubt, I can
come up with some kind of uh, different
way of doing things just just by looking
at things from a different uh,
perspective. And that and and totally

(21:02):
and and flipping way ahead here. That's
why it's always really relevant to me to
have an emerging leader, a youth board
member involved in everything we do,
right? You know, because that's and the
young perspective being acknowledged um
as an elder way. So me in one I'm in an
elder space, but then there's going to
be other elders above me. We need all
the wisdom and all the

(21:23):
perspectives and those that are
inheriting the space to those that um
you know have been walking in the space
for a long time. So, I'm a big big thing
for getting alternative perspectives.
Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. So, um so we
went through Eden. Yeah. I had a lovely
time at Eden. And then I fell in love.
You fell in love with a girl at Eden?

(21:43):
Oh, you fell in love with a girl at
Eden. Okay. And and then she said, this
is about 2003 and we left in 2004. She
had a son in Wiltshire and for the first
time in my life, I was like, oh, she
said, I'm going to go and move back up
to Wiltshire. I've been offered a job. I
was, you know, love struck puppy and and
she did become the mother of my kids.

(22:04):
We're not together anymore, but we still
work together at times. I met her, she
was still good friends. We work well
together. Okay. Um, so she's like a
marketeteer and when we met, she was
commissioning our design team to work
and her role was so association and she
had a seat there and she was looking at
the organic supply chains for Eden and
so she wanted to do an organic wheat

(22:24):
festival and of course we we designed
the how it looked amazing and we got to
know each other. We work really well and
actually we have co-parented you know
over the years since um up in 2008 but
we've come into various projects. She's
brought me into her company she's worked
for. I've brought her into some of ours.
Um she does a lot around purpose uh life

(22:46):
coaching and things like that. So it was
kind of good mix and people still say
now wow you two are really good together
but as colleagues. As colleagues. Yeah.
and but you know we it was amazing but
she went to Wiltshire and um and you
know she's part of that inspiration. I I
kind of grew up a little bit with her as
well. Even I was still very playful. So
by that point I was like a 33 year old

(23:07):
playful guy. Now I'm a 53y old
8-year-old. Um but yeah so she went for
this job um with an organic herb
company. So I went with her and then the
thing was like wow what do you do after
Eden? you know, I couldn't imagine a
job. My prerequisite for life has always
been to live, work and play by the sea.
So went to University of Swansea after

(23:29):
being in Cornwall and then got my first
job in Toi. People were like, "Hey, why
don't you go to London?" So, well,
London clients contact me anyway, you
know, and then I could get the train up
to London. Yeah. Yeah. And you know,
that's that not I don't need that enough
money to be in London and get caught in
a rat race. My creative inspiration is
the ocean and and nature and being close
to it and um and hence I guess why the

(23:51):
work of Leap. But yeah, Cla CLA went up,
I followed her and I was like, "Oh, what
what am I going to do? All right, I'll
create my own my own thing. Um based on
everything I had learned at Eden. Um, so
I would create a graphic design
business, which would really be just
Matt Hawking, but I wanted it to have a
name because I like the cool names, you

(24:12):
know, like um Underworld, the the music
producers, they had a design agency,
their agencies. Theirs was um uh Tomato.
Um I'm a big fan of um Lemon Jelly as
well, and they're both designers as
well. And so they got the design agency,
and then they've got their music side.
Mhm. I haven't got the music side. Sorry
to disappoint you, but I just wanted a

(24:33):
word and then I was thinking about two
things. I was I was leaping away from
this amazing safe haven in Cornwall
going to Wiltshire with no sea. Um and
um thankfully lots of nature and and it
was a leap. So there's a leap of faith.
Mh. Um there was also I was very good at
leaprog.
So So and that that playful mischief

(24:56):
thing as well. So um there's always play
and again you know I think one of the
big things about creativity climate and
planet and futures is we need to have
some serious play around it. Play is so
important like and I think as as you
mature it becomes less and less uh
prevalent but actually we all love to
play and it's such an important part of

(25:18):
our lives. Yeah. Yeah. And actually 100%
with you there and
um also one of the things for me Curly
is like creativity is playful and so to
do so that's where I came up with the
idea of what leap would be and that's
you know still metamorphosising I'm
still learning I'm you know 20 years on

(25:38):
I'm no I'm not I'm not a perfect leader
I haven't got it I'm learning every day
I'm experimenting iterating fading is
anyone a perfect leader yeah we wouldn't
be I don't even like being a leader um
or managing um but imperfectly perfect.
Yeah, I do use that a lot. But I mean, I
like the line, you know, it's from a a
film, but if you build it, they will

(25:59):
come. And I was told that I couldn't I
was going to do Leap and we would
produce the planet would be our client
and it would be graphic design always
with the planet, the environment in
mind. And people go, "What does that
mean?" I said, "Well, you know, this
2004, it's like if I'm doing a website,
it's going to be powered by renewable
energy. If I'm um if I'm buying I'm

(26:19):
using my laptop where I am will be
powered by renewable energy. If it's on
paper, it will be recycled. It will be
these inks and and everything in between
I'd work out. And also I'd learned quite
a lot seeing other agencies interact
with Eden and stuff we had done what it
what worked and what didn't in in a
tourism based environment that lots of
people were touching. So the maintenance

(26:39):
team had to mend things quite a lot. So
I had all this experience of materials
that worked and didn't and I took the
best of it like the fine wine. M as well
as having the house wine and um and then
that that's really where it went. So I
created Leap. Somebody said, "Oh, does
that mean life, environment, art, and
passion?" I said, "No, but I like it, so
I use it." It does work. And and then I

(27:02):
didn't have any clients, but I just
said, you know, this is what I do. And
then I went out and offered my skills to
a couple of charities and just said,
"Look, I've got no clients." Small
charities. One was a homeless charity
called the Hope Project in Exa was the
first commission. Mhm. So I did that for
for for nothing in return for a
testimonial. They really loved it, you
know, and again because relationship

(27:23):
they liked me and got a bit more work.
They started talking about me and then
um the recycle for Cornwall campaign was
required 18 months to up the level of
recycling in the region. And uh Leap I
won it because of my creative but more
because of my sustainability. And they
said nobody was able to answer like you

(27:45):
did about materials and how things are
connected and um and then it just
started to flow from there. It just is
just snowballs. I'm up in Wiltshire now
and just like when I was in Tori having
to travel to Eden for a year the next
two years most of my clients were in
Cormal. So I was up and down so I was
burning carbon just to service them.
Yeah. um um had two daughters up there
and then decided to come back and that's

(28:06):
so Leap was born and
and I call it like a bat signal moment
that people just started to find out
about us. I think there was only two or
three businesses doing anything like us
and there was Futera and Thomas Matthews
and um actually Sophie Thomas and both
Ed who founded Futera and St. Thomas
Matthews have become friends um and

(28:29):
Thomas Matthews actually unfortunately
just decided to call it a day and she
was been going since like 1999 so even
before us. So yeah so that was that was
leap and then it was just working out.
So I knew that I had to use this energy
and I knew I needed to use these these
use these papers and then magic just
started to happen. You know who should I
use for energy? Now the two main
suppliers are eotricity and good energy.

(28:50):
Good energy were in chipam. I'm in
devises said let's go with good energy.
Solve is an SEO and web design agency
that builds highquality sustainable
websites and strategies to help
businesses grow online. They're also BC
Corp, meaning they're a business for
good, making a positive impact while
driving real results. As a special offer

(29:13):
for our listeners, Solve is offering a
free website audit and
consultation. Just mention searching for
a greener room to claim
yours. So, like I said, we signed up to
Good Energy. We thought they they felt
really right about the way um they used
energy, and there's a lot of great
energy providers in in the UK. There

(29:34):
were two very dominant ones at at that
time breaking the the the idea of what
energy was and I just really liked good
energy and they were based in Chippenham
not far from where we were in devis.
Yeah. Somebody from customer service had
seen that we were an agency and um
must have told you know Juliet Davenport
who's the you know the CEO founder and

(29:55):
the next thing we're over there amazing
and Cla's seven months pregnant and
there's me. We're wearing combats. We're
not dressed up. there's a lot of people
in suits and we just talked about our
values and and materiality, you know,
because it things weren't so digital
then and there was still a lot of paper
being used and again, you know, both of
them have a role and both of them have

(30:17):
significant environmental impact and we
were just doing it in the best way for
the clients and with like reporting on
it. And so we're telling them about all
this and they just said, "Yeah, we want
to work with you." Much the same as that
Eden moment. hadn't got very far and um
yeah and then that contract was you know
reality it was a h 100,000 so we're
going from quite small things to to this

(30:40):
big thing and this was many years ago so
this was 200 this was in the year yeah
so that would have been set up in 2004
and that was 2005 so so that was
considerably more than what it's worth
today then um well again we kept leap's
ecosystem small when you're by self
there's it always feels like there's
more money as soon as you have team and

(31:01):
and process and stuff then you know so
we actually at the peak of when I was
just working by myself the probably only
now 20 years on earns between 100 and
200,000 more than those early days of me
but it was a significant step up for me
in that and also it times well because
Cla's own job which had gone to Wilshire

(31:23):
for um they didn't have the money to pay
her so They're waiting on a house sale
to pay for her role. That didn't go
through. She's 7 months pregnant and
doesn't feel like you know it wasn't.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it was 7 months
there. So, just before there when it had
gone through so she didn't feel in
integrity and authentic to go and get a
job. So, suddenly I was in like digital

(31:44):
creative hunter gatherer mode and the
work came you know. Amazing. So, so um
Leap is a BC Corp company. Yeah. So, we
would Yeah. So um let's start by just
just exploring BC Corp for for a moment.
What what is BCorp? Yeah. Well, just
before I go into what is BCorp, I think
it's what what wasn't there before Bor.

(32:06):
So So creating leap as an
environmentally planet centered um you
know design and impact agency. A lot of
people would question what does that
mean? Because they weren't used to the
language sustainability. People still
really don't get the word and stuff like
that. Yeah. And um that's why I say
graphic design with a plan in mind and
then on there then I said look if we do

(32:27):
this it will be this way if we do it
that way you'll know the footprint of
it. Um is it going to be anymore? And I
said between it zero and 12%. Then we
started to get more challenge and so we
started to win environmental awards and
then we did ISA 14,0001 after BSA triple
5 and you'll know some of these. Well
tell us what that is just uh well

(32:47):
they're environmental standards. Yeah.
Okay. um for having an environmental
management system, an EMS. So, this is
us as a small business, a chaotic
creative that doesn't like Excel
spreadsheets, having to fill out a Excel
spreadsheet. Feel I had to prove that
this was possible, that creatives could
do this and not just do the creative

(33:08):
work for the planet, but also do the the
backstory and the data to support the
impacts for transparency. Well, for and
for my own there's I think there's about
it's about truth, trust and and love I
think and just I get caught up into it.
So the one thing about this creative
journey within the for on a planet

(33:28):
centered approach curly is everything
became sticky whereas
before history and all things by
geography didn't stick in my mind and
suddenly I knew about all these papers
and I knew all these stats you know 80%
of environmental impact is decided at
the design stage 70% of the world's
papers go through the hands of a
creative in one way or the other this is
all because you've got an

(33:49):
intrinsic interest in it and an empathy
for the planet I think as well there's
something about that care and care and
love and reciprocity for our origin
space, you know, spaceship earth as
Buckminister Fuller would call it. And
um going back to the things, so we had
all these we started winning loads of
awards like 30 plus environmental
awards. Then people said, "Oh, you're
yeah, you're environmental, but yeah,

(34:10):
what I don't see any creative awards, so
felt we didn't have to prove that so
much, but went for the creative awards."
At this time, we're scaling up with the
clients. I've moved back to Cornwall. um
two children Claire 2006 now investors
in people but we knew we you know now a
team of approaching 10 I think very

(34:30):
quick and
um it was still too hard to explain what
we did it wasn't an easy conversation
unless you knew the ones who already
knew the bat signal as I call it they
understood it they trusted you so
bedroom and steps hotel and scarlet
hotel they were just like we want a
creative that fits into our circular
supply chain Actually language like that

(34:51):
was already being used way before
secularity was being used and you will
fit in just like our fish munger will
fit in m your design they do fish
sustainably ISA 1401 very complex didn't
really make much difference to us um we
held it till
2015 and at the same time I'd come

(35:13):
across BCorp and BCorp in its simplest
forms is for for-profit businesses is uh
using their business as a force for
good. And it original line was people
using business as a force for good
rather than business as a force for good
because it was people in business. And
in the early days it was more like you
got you know fair trade mark um for

(35:36):
product and then bought for for
business. Now that's changed a lot and
we measure our businesses you know on
like well five pillars but now that's
all about to change because we got some
fantastic new standards coming in and
LEAP was the first and it's American it
came out of America so there weren't
many in the UK I've been watching it
since about 2008 just out of interest

(35:56):
strangely not curious enough to go hey
can we do this over here anyway it came
to Britain in 2015 I had all the data
from ISO 1401 had all the data from
investors of people so I had people on
planet had the way we produce work. We
had the world's only at the time carbon
calculator for paper and print. We' had
that created by a science team. And so

(36:17):
we had all these tools and all these
measures. And Bor came in and for the
next year I I I went through the all by
myself. People say it's rigorous and it
takes time. I did it by myself on a much
more archaic version than the very easy
platforms they have now.
and I did it and I got a phone call
because there wasn't many Borps in the

(36:38):
world and they said, "Look, you're um
you're 23 points above what you need to
to become a BC 80 points. Why have you
not pressed a button?" Oh, I just want
everything to be perfect. You know, I
want every answer to be perfect. It's
not even about the score but my own duty
is so I was overthinking and actually
the way I teach um use of the VCore
business impact assessment how I help

(36:59):
solve and things like that was just
actually it's not perfect it's about a
process the journey is never ending it's
not the destination about moving forward
yeah and doing what you can you don't
have to do all it's not about the
highest points and things I I get a bit
frustrated with this kind of chase the
points for sure um thankfully that's all
gone now for the new standards

(37:19):
Um but it's nice to gamify it. So yeah,
I I pressed the button after Kate Hill
um who's very high level in the BE call
movement and she was heading up UK and
um yeah, it was a really fun moment. She
goes, "Yeah, just just press it." And I
was like, and then she said, "And a new
assessment's coming in." Because at that
time, every two years a new version of

(37:40):
the BIA came in. I hate tests. It's one
of the reasons I did design and
creativity. No more tests. and I pressed
it and a month later we scored first
creative agency well first BC Corp in
Cornwall and the first creative agency
in Europe to have that standard and then
things exploded
but also for me the biggest thing on

(38:00):
that was all this stuff to prove what we
were just like when I became this planet
centered designer Matt from his bedroom
in those those first couple years people
understood it and borps like to buy from
each other invest in work with support.
So suddenly I'm in this whole new

(38:20):
community um the only creative and I
didn't look at it as a a sales channel
or funnel but people seem to like me and
work seems to came and the work got
bigger and we got a reputation of being
a nice place and um yeah that's that's
where we are and that's I guess my
life's work and that's why I wanted to
grow the be community here and not be
the the lone nut. Um I wanted some other

(38:42):
people to dance with me and um and now
we've got you know approaching a hundred
businesses in Cornwall and Cornwall is
one of the the most BC Corp areas in the
country. Yeah. Second largest cluster
outside of London. Um London's the
capital city for the most BC corps on
the planet and the UK is the fastest
growing um BCore marketplace. Brilliant.

(39:03):
But the reason that is is because we've
actually whatever we may think of our
governments and and things we've got
good laws and we have a NHS we've got a
health provider we have pensions state
pensions many countries don't you know
America South America don't have these
things so we're very lucky that UK

(39:23):
businesses score on average much higher
on the first drafts or two drafts of
going through the impact assessment than
um than other businesses. Amazing. Well,
you should be uh well, I'm sure you are
extremely proud of yourself for for the
work that you've done there and the the
um where you're at with with everything,
not just not just BC Corp, obviously,
but um with the whole thing. Um which

(39:45):
leads me on to design for change. Yes.
Tell me about design for change. Well,
design for change just cap encapsulating
that the work was all around change, but
also still not just changing for the
sake of changing. And it came from the
the Gandhi line, be the change you want
to see in the world. Which I found since
found, I think Chris Hines actually told
me this uh that that's a paraphrase of a

(40:07):
bigger speech that Gandandy did. So he
never actually said it. Okay. Um you
have to ask Chris about that. Um he's
such a wise elder. And um so what that
was a that that mantra that line I was
doing design and I was in the art of
change. And also the other side of
things with creatives is we're this

(40:29):
playful individuals or businesses that
come in in quite a nice way to deal with
some pretty sticky stuff. So what else
can we use design to change? Well, we
can talk about people. We can talk about
the environmentalism of the business. So
you with soul when I first met L on a a
bus journey to Liverpool and we're
talking about what he did. because I,
you know, I didn't know there was green

(40:51):
hosting and I didn't know about BC Corp,
but then look, green hosting and BC.
Now, it's just that awareness and so I'm
not there to have a a unique selling
point because I don't believe the planet
and life is a unique selling point. We
did get told, "Oh, you got a really
awesome unique selling point, this
environmental thing." No, I need
everybody to do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um and and so design for change was just

(41:12):
our quickest way of saying it. And you
know, again, it's a call sign. So those
that respond to it respond to it. Others
they don't see it. Yeah. But what we did
in Sorl is we were on a roundabout in
Sorl and I had the whole all the windows
which are Yeah. about a bit longer than
this room and there was a big glass
windows floor to ceiling and we'd get
people just staring at our team. So I

(41:35):
thought I'd get some contravision which
is a a form of window graphic. It's not
that environmental. That's where you can
see in one way and not the other. Right.
Okay. And then I created this woodland
scene that had dinosaurs and businessmen
and astronauts and animals and all
things. And it was my representation of
what's been where we are and what could
be, right? So um anything from

(41:57):
extinction to the going to the stars and
where we dream to what it is to be in
business. And then it just said, you
know, be the change you want to see in
the world. Designed for change. And that
covered this whole thing. And we got so
many people over the year goes, "You
inspired me so much with your that
thing. I remember seeing it. I don't
know who it was." And we got clients
that way. Other people said, "It just
made my day hopeful when I saw it."

(42:19):
Excellent. And I love and and and and
moving on with inspiration there. We
talked earlier about um and you've just
said about Chris Hines being a a wise
elder. Yeah. Um and you were talking
about how you were inspired by the
youth, your elders. Tell me a little bit
about that. So

(42:40):
um although I might be a child inside
me, it's a child that's had you know
experiences and growing up and so who's
got set perspectives based on those
experiences. So um at COP 26 I um was
lucky enough to go there. I cycled COP
26 with a bunch of other climate
cyclists of 540 miles over sort of seven

(43:00):
days. Excellent. And uh and when I was
up there, one of the things that again
BC Corp, which I'm you know I've been
involved in I was part of the original
18 BC Corp ambassadors to grow the UK
movement. I've spoken for it. I've been
at their events and out there they did
this initi uh initiative called
boardroom 2030 and what do our what does
the future of our boardrooms look like

(43:21):
at at 2030 and who needs to be at the
table and what do we need to be thinking
about now? And so and a lot of that was
bringing in other stakeholders. you
know, something that's very big for the
BCore movement. It's not about your
shareholders, it's stakeholders,
everybody, your community, your you
know, workers, your customers, you you
name it. Anyone you come into contact
with. Yeah. Yeah. And um and so I

(43:44):
watched this sort of lovely um role play
with uh young what I call emerging
leaders, youth board members, the
existing board members, body shop
modeled it and um I was like, "Oh yeah,
I like that. That's really good." Again,
I you can go my my my my you know
neurodyiverse mind was like oh grasp
that what if we did that at scale and

(44:07):
then you know and in Eden back at my
home place now you know after leaving in
2004 I told them idea could I do an
onmass boardroom 2030
um we sold out an event in the gallery
to 100 businesses without them know the
agenda then then they got a surprise
when they came in we'd got loads of
youth scientists um poets artists

(44:28):
activists
and we gathered them and on all the
tables there were two of them and young
people and we just let it pollinate from
there and then we modeled we got good
energy which has a good future board as
well. So that board ranges from like uh
12 to 18. So that would already existed
with our our client good energy. They
came down and showed their role in
guiding um against the board the main

(44:50):
board. So how they work and even now
from that one day which is I think 2021
I had a company say the other day, oh
Matt, could you help us do some brand
work? I was like, yeah. He goes, um I'm
working with this guy Jack. And I was
like, Jack, I know Jack. He goes, yeah,
I was sitting on his table at your
boardroom 2030. I was so inspired by
him. I started a new company. He's me
and him are u co-owners. Amazing. And

(45:13):
how cool is that? Wow. That is
incredible. Yeah. And for myself, you
know, run another event called Goodfest.
And again, being conscious, I could talk
a million miles and lots of different
things and trying to stay focused to you
and the the and your audience. But
again, you know, when I set things up, I
couldn't create a company that isn't got
environmentalism at the heart of it.

(45:33):
Environmental action through the way it
interacts with the world. And the same
with Goodfest. Once we had Goodfest, of
course, it's got all that environmental,
you know, we don't produce merch. We're
really conscious of, you know, our
carbon footprint of all the things. Um,
but it was really important to have a
youth board member. And so I had been um
in conversation with a lady uh Amelia

(45:54):
Cruz who's now a friend since and she
was at our board in 2030. She was 19
then, she's 25 now. She just stepped
down from our board at Goodfest and
she's been on our board for the last
three years. Amazing. and we've talked
and worked and shared and yeah and it's
been brilliant and I feel so much richer
for it. So one of my I call it my green
rider if I'm um asked to do a talk or um

(46:17):
be on a panel or something that I'll
always have at least one emerging leader
young person on the panel. Awesome.
Yeah. So that's really important because
it's again if we're looking at life it's
just another form of creativity and we
if we need to have difficult
uncomfortable conversations and really
do the work that now and future
generations need we've got to have all
of us at the table. Do you do you

(46:37):
believe everyone can be creative?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because every moment
from the moment we wake up and think
what am I going to do today is a
creative thought. There's a billion
synapses from I have no idea how many
there are. um but lost going off and
that speed how this is set up today the

(46:58):
shirt you're wearing my shirt is a
creative expression we're just told that
creativity is a role is only done by a
few but I believe that a chef is a
creative the road planner city planner
who's working out the road my god that's
a bit of creativity absolutely you know
lots of logic but it's a creative
expression of how to move transport

(47:19):
around the region and things like that
and I'm really interested ed in the the
the possibility of of a no one, which I
I don't want to say that. That's a
horrible thing to say, but you'll
understand when I explain. Um, a no one
could come up with a solution or can
come up with a solution. And um, someone

(47:39):
who's not directly a creative can come
up with the solution. So I'm I'm
interested in that idea that um that any
first of all anyone can be creative and
secondly someone out there could come up
with the solution. Yes. Yeah. I think
there's a couple of little areas to

(48:00):
that. So there is the belief in our
creativity and I think is it like
Picassle of Vango said that
um like everything is imitation or
plagiarism because nature's already done
it. Yeah, for sure. You know, there's
there's that. Um there's our
self-limiting beliefs around I can draw,

(48:20):
I can't, but yet we might go into an art
gallery and see a Jackson Pollock or
something like that or a Rothco and go,
I could my my four-year-old could have
painted that, you know, and then why are
they getting 50 million for that and the
things, you know, and this is all thing
because we've all got these different
viewpoints of what it is to be creative
and how we see the world. Some love

(48:40):
natural beauty of the world. Others like
the natural beauty of the city. I had a
friend who
uh got told when she was 12 by a school
teacher that her painting was terrible
and she should never do any painting
again. Great. She didn't pick up a
paintbrush after that until she was in

(49:01):
her mid4s.
Since then, she's been selling her
artwork for incredible amounts of money.
Yeah. and she's absolutely fantastic.
But that creation was between the age of
12 and the age of mid-4s. Yeah. She she
shelved it because some someone decided

(49:23):
to tell her that she couldn't thinking
they were probably funny or they were
you know you know just their magician
was manipulating. You know everything
comes when it's supposed to. So, you
know, like ideas in the trade thing,
ideas that didn't work in the 90s could
be right now. They might come too soon.
It's a brilliant book. Um, I know you

(49:43):
asked about books saying I've got a few
books in my bag. Um, but it's a very
simple book. I'm like somebody that
likes to read something very quickly.
So, it's a few pictures and says it's
called the path of the doer by David
Hyatt um who's the founder of the do
lectures and high denim, right? And um
in it is all about in a reality and the
way I read it and hear it in my mind is

(50:05):
it's about taking action
that a good idea 99% of us will have the
same idea. So that may be again these
are my words now a global consciousness
an idea comes into the world somehow and
lots of us get it at the same time but
only 1% actually are the actioners and
then those 1% might not have all the

(50:26):
tools and individuals to manifest the
idea into something that works. So like
me, I'm a really good ideator. I could,
you know, my mind's always exploding
with new ideas, but I need what I call a
transformer and operator, people that
can bring it to reality. So when I'm
doing, so I'm a good director of work
and I'm a pretty good creative, but

(50:47):
there's better people. So I know my
limitations. So I'm quite easy to step
aside, but be part of the whole because
I'd rather see the best work that's most
fitting for client and planet um than
just doing something for my own ego. So,
so again, if I need illustration or
video work or something else, I lean
into others that can help me be more

(51:08):
brilliant. So, so how can we um how can
we create a better future? How can we
create a better future? Well, I guess
there's a few tangents, you know, there
again. So, one, we need to do the work
on ourselves.
So, creatively, I use the word creative,
we have to do the work on our inner

(51:28):
self.
be happy internally and our own
ecosystem and that will manifest that it
will work on our external we love
ourselves and understand our creativity,
love and selfworth which is a work in
progress. Um and um I'm no, you know,
Buddha or anything like that. I've not

(51:50):
not hit that sort of max point. It's
going to be my life's work is just being
the best version of myself for sure. So
I think there's a in the hurly burly of
the day and the speed and just life
because not not everyone has the luxury
as well. Some people you know work get
food sleep work you know don't get that
time but what if we could have a society
where we could all work on oursel and

(52:13):
then that made us care or naturally care
for everything around us. And if we were
able to embrace our creativity so that
we could have a voice um within our
communities to go actually what about
looking at this way or that or what do
we really need and we removed our I'm
going to take this from John John
O'Brien's but we left our status and our

(52:34):
ego at the door and looked at the the
bigger picture. The other side of the
better world is you know any action is
better than no action and sure you know
and
we could all and I hear when I do a lot
of talks so many people overwhelmed like
what more walk yeah I'm just trying to
do I'm recycling and I'm I'm not I'm not

(52:54):
driving and I'm I'm not this and it's
not enough and you can feel the
overwhelm and go look it's not just on
you. If you do the bit that is enough
for you. Yeah. And it becomes a habit or
you feel you've ticked it off then you
can move in. You don't have to do it all
at once. Like the thing people do these
mad silly diet things like, "Right, I'm
going to stop
drinking food and I'm going to stop

(53:16):
sugar and then you just get this
overwhelm. It's impossible." You know,
your mind's going, "I need the sugar and
there's no food and life's boring
suddenly, you know." And it's the same
for the environment. What can we what
can we change? What is your design for
change? What is um your your the change
that works for you? It could be little
things like just getting the bus like I

(53:37):
did today. Yes, it takes longer, but
actually I'm in quite a peaceful state.
I on the bus and and you quite enjoyed
it, didn't you? I'm Yes, the child in me
and the experimentation, but I couldn't
chat on the bus. Um, it was a bit
rattly, so I I I it wasn't the place to
have phone calls. Yeah. Um I've learned
over the last few years um so leap when
I set LEAP up as well as the how we use

(53:59):
you know energy and paper and how we
care about people on planet was also
like where do we bank and I made the
decision straight away which is easy
when you're starting up a business that
I'd only use ethical banks. Yeah for
sure whereas my I'm still with my bank
that I was a student with you know and
um that that's not so ethical. Um, but
everything Leak does from the heart is

(54:22):
as good as it can be. So, I just want to
um finish up by talking about something
that that intrigues me. Enoughism. Yeah.
Tell me about enoughism. Within the
Enoughism, it's kind of like the triple
bottom line again, but now it's kind of
my own play on words and stuff. And um
it was just looking at what it is to be
an activist and that we can all be an

(54:43):
activist. You know, just doing a a good
deed a day, you know, is an activist.
And then what what more can you do? But
then what is enough in that activism? Um
so then there's reactivism which I kind
of look at is you you realize that you
do need to do something but it's quite
quite late and it's going to be
expensive for you to suddenly change
adapt scrabble around. So you know you

(55:05):
haven't done the planning but maybe you
have the resource and other people
won't. And then the inactivist. Now if
anybody's watched the film Don't Look Up
and things it's a little bit like that.
And it's like an inactivist. You don't
believe that there's anything that's a
problem. And um so you just think this
is this is life and there is there is
either no way because you don't believe
what's happening or you can't comprehend

(55:27):
it. And so that inactivist is you know
that's the end kind of thing. Yeah. You
know in a suicide or anything like that.
It's just that don't look up moment.
It's like oh it's too late now. Yeah.
Excellent. So let's all be activists in
a way and but while knowing what our
enoughism is. That's insightful and
let's let's all be activists and if we

(55:48):
can't be activists let's be reactivi
activists and let's not be inactivist.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to
save yourself some money take action
now. Yeah. You know that's the whole
thing is like take the action now. Um
grow a couple of you know fruit tree. I
suppose this is evidence stuff so I
won't go into that. So yes. Well, let's
that that um sort of moves us nicely
into the next section. So, what we're

(56:11):
going to do now, Matt, and I I'm going
to we're going to give you a minute to
talk about each thing, which be
interesting cuz uh I wonder if we just
say one word for each,
but Alex over there has got the uh the
bell and you're going to have one minute
to discuss each uh each of your top
tips. And the first one there that
you're going to discuss is switch your

(56:32):
bank to one that does not fund fossil
fuels or deforestation. Yes. Yeah. And
actually this is the biggest and
simplest activism thing you can do is is
know where your bank is from and what
they're doing. Now we've all got banks.
It's now a lot easier to move a bank. Um
so Leap's always had its money in the

(56:54):
right places. You know Co-op, Troy Doss,
and now Stling Freeze as well. We use
those three banks. Harder for business,
but personally, where is your money?
Where is your pension? And that's these
key things. There's a website called
bank.gg green and that's it. Just put
bank.green. You go in, put in your bank,
it will tell you what your bank is uh
funding, and you can make a decision
whether you would like your money to be

(57:16):
elsewhere, which would mean making
changing bank accounts. Even if nothing
else, information is beautiful. So,
check it out. I'm not going to say any
more than that, but it will tell you the
top 10 polluters. Excellent. Excellent.
And that's uh you know, you've got some
banks fueling fossil fuels, you've got
some banks fueling war, you've got some
banks fueling all sorts. Most banks do

(57:36):
all of those as much as one. Same as our
pensions. And so that's the quickest and
biggest activist they can do. Okay.
Number two, you do not have to do
everything. Do one thing well, make it
your new normal, then build from there.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So with that do one
thing well, it comes from a bit of
experience and this overwhelm. Am I

(57:57):
enough? But actually, rather than being
overwhelmed and getting stuck, what
could I do? And it could be just, hey,
I'm switching my uh washing machine. I'm
only going to wash things at 20° or on
cold and you just kind of adapt. And so
it's kind of like nudge theory. What's
that thing I can do? I don't like
composting, so I don't have a home
composter. I do throw everything out the

(58:18):
garden. So it's again it's just going
what can I do that supports my local
community supports me and then what more
can I do? So it's finding what is your
action again and what is enough for you
to do. Excellent. You know do it well
like a habit build upon it. Excellent.
And that was was that exactly a minute
Alex this you're you're good at this.

(58:38):
Well I'm getting into the enoughism now
and I'm scared of
Alex now he's got a bell. I can see he's
turning into a man of authority. He's
going to like stamp on us. He's eager,
isn't he? Yeah, absolutely. you
environmental people. That's not
recorded, is it?
So, um, number three, believe in better.
The media often tells us otherwise, but

(59:01):
imagination builds futures.
Yeah. So in that is if we only see a
world that is limited that is what the
media portray which is war death control
uh dispondency it's like you know I
never watch East Enders but that's what

(59:21):
I clearly like Eastend it's all doom and
gloom there's always a problem so what
if you're just around good people and in
good community that's never going to be
perfect but surround yourself with that
and um it's about imagination and you
know Van Go says as long as we can see
the stars we can dream I think was the
line and so that's that's what this is
about is keep imagining better don't

(59:43):
catastrophize you know get that
imagination going and we maybe could
walk into a a better world just by
believing more and believing in
ourselves and others absolutely um just
I know it's going to be but if you've
seen the film Creator
um it shows an alternative version of AI
if AI was good doom and gloom sells

(01:00:03):
papers. Yeah. Just like we Yeah,
exactly. Good news doesn't sell. So
number four, gratitude matters.
Absolutely. Your uh to yourself, to
others, and to this life. Yes. So
gratitude, I didn't realize I had a
gratitude practice.
Um until I started talking to people. So

(01:00:24):
from the age of about 23, 24, I just
used to say thanks for what I've got.
Usually the C. Yeah. Yeah. The sea, if a
relationship had gone wrong, the sea
would be my healer and stuff. I'd spend
time watching the way sunlight and the
art of just being
grateful is an energy of frequency in
itself and um and reciprocity, giving

(01:00:45):
back for something you've been given as
well. And so I really big believer in
that. And then as I learned words like
gratitude and reciprocity, that made oh
that makes sense. Again, I'm giving back
for being on this planet in my way. I'm
giving back to young men at the moment
for my journey as an older man. Yeah.
You know, so brilliant. Um, do something

(01:01:06):
not nothing. Yeah. However small, care
for your patch, think global, think
hyper local. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's
um Yeah. So, with with that line, it's
it's more like uh act local, think
global. So just by doing our bit here,
the world is big and overwhelming and

(01:01:27):
there's lots of brilliant stuff out
there. But can we affect it or not? Yes,
as we rise in our careers and our
creative pathways and and and
responsibilities, we could be a world
leader, but what can we do in community?
You know, so my good friend John Brown,
you know, he wanted to take action
action with your vote. He joined the
local Chamber of Commerce and he's now

(01:01:48):
CEO of Chamber of Commerce. He's now
running it, right? Yeah. And um he's
also um on his local town council in
Meagisy. He's taking action with his
vote and with his word and that's where
he feels he can make the most change. So
what can we do each of us? And that's
the the the the butterfly effect, isn't
it? That that when a butterfly, you
know, flicks its wings over there, it
changes what's happening over there.

(01:02:09):
Yeah. Everything is interacting and um
Yeah. And we're at a really, you know,
amazing yet devastating time. Yeah. But
I I remain in the imagination if and I'm
you know very lucky of where we are.
Yeah. Um but yeah and and John you know
says vote vote with your vote you know
absolutely as I say vote with your
pound. Yeah. So moving on we're going to

(01:02:31):
um we're going to look at your bits of
evidence now. Um and the first one which
you've already touched upon is the uh
the
www.bank. Green. Green. Yeah. If nothing
else it's a playful thing. Whatever you
do, information is beautiful and
awareness and I do it at talks where
we've got everyone on their mobile
phones and afterwards everyone's talking

(01:02:52):
like oh my god you know so and I don't
know if I've got a pension in there as
well is that a separate one or so it's
the pension like changing your pension
so you know two pounds of
every10 goes to deforestation and fossil
fuel in a normal pension and a pension
the right pension is 21 times more
powerful than switching your energy

(01:03:13):
provider becoming vegetarian and
stopping buying or driving an electric
car. So that one thing we all got agency
to do so much in this case that is the
vote with our pound but we're taking
action. So tell me about the better
business act. Again something was born
out of the bore movement in the UK. Um
because of the legal structures and and

(01:03:33):
government policy um we as BC corps we
changed our article associations to go
from shareholder primacy to stakeholder
primacy everyone and people planet and
profit not just profit. So we've all
changed our articles um to do that and
it's section 172 I think it is. But what
if we could get anyone to have a

(01:03:54):
business in the UK to be able to change
and so for the better business act you
can go along to it. I think it's elite
le look after the website and you can
sign that you believe that's the law
that needs to change and this is again
that power of law is so important if
done right. So get on there about 3,000
businesses you know become a better

(01:04:15):
business. I like it. I like it. You
don't have to be a be either to do it.
Okay. You just anyone can say I agree
that this is the way business should be.
Excellent. So the next one I've got here
is the sustainable creative charter.
Yes.
So, uh, one of my many hats is Goodfest
CIC. So, a community interest company,
take no money from it, founded in 2019,

(01:04:38):
creative conversations, um, by the
beach. And each year we try and rather
just be a talk like there's many events
at talk, we always try and get something
tangible out. So this the better
business ch the the creative char
sustainable creative charter sorry about
my words there um was co-created by 150
participants at goodfest at one session

(01:04:59):
including people from Patagonia and
things and we all colesed like what are
the things we need to do to change so
and we say creative charter but again
goes back to all us being creative so
it's like be bold share um be human
challenge it's really simple anyone can
sign up to it and pledge to do it. But
rather than pledge, actually take some

(01:05:21):
action. Go, actually, how do I be bold?
Well, I'm going to share more about the
thing I do that's different in the way I
do the work.
I love it. I love it. And then the last
one on there was actually um uh
Goodfest.
So, tell us a bit about Goodfest.
Goodfest where the sustainable creative
charter came from and many other outputs

(01:05:42):
is is really how can we pollinate better
conversations where people don't feel
alone and they might be you know I'm
very lucky I'm in the be community so a
very willing community but not everybody
has that or has a business you know that
could go through it so we convened
really this session these sessions once
a year and a few online things where 150

(01:06:04):
people gather Um and we will bring in
inspirational speakers. However, it's
not really the speakers, it's all of the
audience and the conversations between
the conversations. So our speakers
become our participants. They stay they
become part of the rich tapestry of
conversations and so much impact and
change has come from there as well as
nurturing. I've experienced talks, you

(01:06:26):
know, about eco anxiety from a young
person which I couldn't believe that
they were so close to ending ending
their life. Yeah. But because they found
community, they stayed in that world.
And that that immediately that was the
end of it. She texted me afterwards. She
goes, "I hope you know you're one of the
people that kept me in this world." I
didn't. But that's what inspired me to

(01:06:47):
go on to Bander Brothers to learn to be
better at um listening rather than
talking. Yeah. That's why we've got two
ears and one mouth, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Matt, it's
uh just before we go on to the last
question, just tell us how we can
contact you, how we can keep in touch.
Yeah, so um contact for me is I'm Matt.

(01:07:08):
Hawking on Instagram. That's kind of my
main play things. I'm rubbish at um
doing regular posts. Um agencies, you
know, ww.ap eap.eco Eco Eco first
organization in the world to get a
creative agency get a domain where you
have to pledge sorry to do an
advertising slot. You have to pledge.

(01:07:29):
You can't have that domain without
pledging to help the planet. Um and then
yeah like LinkedIn uh email find me
you'll find me under Matt Hawking.
There's me and a footballer called Matt
Hawking. There you go. And you're not a
footballer? Not at all. I'm no good with
football. Um yeah. So Matt, tell me one
thing that we can all do today to make a
better tomorrow. Help us find a greener

(01:07:51):
room. I think I'd just have to say just
believe that you can. No matter what
what it
is, it's doing that something. So don't
worry about size or small or comparison.
Just do there's something really good
about being kind to you and kind to
others.
um the bank obviously it's more than one

(01:08:12):
but you know switching your bank or even
just understanding yeah what your bank
does and I've got a couple books are
probably a bit too too late but you know
a good book from a friend Mark Shayer
who's been part of goodfest is you can't
make money on a dead planet really
useful wouldn't you wouldn't have found
me talking about money once something
old which is incredible is that you know

(01:08:34):
operating manual for spaceship earth how
do we look after the planet and operate
it so the future generations find a
habitable space. So read a little bit,
do what you can um and look at your
money because all of us can be a
positive, you know, force for good in
the world. Matt, you're an absolute
legend. Thank you so much for coming in

(01:08:55):
today and having a chat and uh I think
we'll have to do another episode uh
because I know you've got lots to say.
Um we'll have to bring you in again uh
some of another time. I think I might
what my partner has to put up with.
Matt, thank you very much. Hey, thank
you for having me and fellow shirt
brother. Um and um yeah, keep doing what

(01:09:18):
you do as well. Um you've got such a
lovely energy and again just for me to
have the conversations and the the
memories. Sometimes you forget the speed
you move at. That's why I got you a
little gift. Um Oh, very kind in there,
which is about pausing. Thank you very
much. And what is that? Thank you. All
right. Thank you. That's it for this
episode of Searching for a Green Room.

(01:09:38):
We'd love to hear your thoughts. Let us
know what you think, who you'd like to
hear from, any topics you want us to
cover. Drop us a comment. Don't forget
to like and subscribe so you never miss
an episode. See you next time.