October 22, 2025 • 54 mins
Emily O’Brien’s story is a rare, raw example of redemption and resilience. At age 25, she was caught smuggling cocaine and was later convicted—receiving a four-year prison sentence.
During her time behind bars, something unexpected happened: she noticed popcorn was one of the few treats that brought people together in confinement. With limited spices—lemon pepper, dill—she began experimenting. That simple idea grew into Comeback Snacks, which she officially launched after her parole in 2018, with a mission to fight stigma, hire formerly incarcerated people, and build hope one bag of popcorn at a time.
Today, Emily’s brand is stocked in hundreds of outlets across Canada and the U.S. She employs people who have criminal records, works to shift public perception, and speaks about never letting your past define your future.
Joining Emily O’Brien in studio is her father, John O’Brien — an accomplished executive, strategic advisor, Catholic leader, and mountaineer… but more importantly, a dad who’s walked through fire with his child and stood beside her every step of the way.
John is currently the Chief Financial Officer of the Roman Catholic Diocese of St. Catharines, and the founder of O’Brien Strategic Services, a consulting practice that supports Catholic organizations across North America. He spent over three decades with the Diocese of Hamilton, overseeing everything from cemeteries to insurance, while also mentoring new executives in the often complex world of religious governance.
Follow Emily on Instagram @emz.obrien
This episode was sponsored by Matthew Stevenson Insurance.
Website: https://matthew-stevenson.ca/#work
This episode's Dad Jokes Sponsor is Spicer Landscaping and Snow Removal.
The Clothing and Swag Sponsor of the show is OneBone Clothing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This shit My Dad Taught me episode is brought to you by an
amazing sponsormatthew-stephenson.ca.
He's wealth strategy, TAXT smart, estate smart, legacy
smart. Thank you Matt.
Hello. Welcome to shit My dad Taught me
We we have some great friends and guests in the studio Today.
I want to introduce everybody toEmily and John O'Brien.
(00:28):
Welcome guys. Thanks for coming today.
Well, thanks for having us. We we're going to kick it off
with a little tradition we have,which is a ChatGPT intro.
So this is Jamie and I looking like we did our job, but really
we just put some prompts into ChatGPT.
So let's see how close they got.John, I'm going to actually
start with you, if that's OK. That's fine, but.
So, and I know we're going to talk a little bit about these
(00:49):
wonderful treats we have on the table here and that's going to
be Emily's domain, but we'll start with John.
That's not John on here. No, no.
He had longer hair back then. I did that was.
So we've got and we should say too.
Let's let's start by properly introducing This is our very
first father daughter on the show.
Hey, oh, good for you guys. We're very privileged and
(01:11):
excited to be here. 2029 episodes in and it's a first for
us so we've. Finally got some shit my we've.
Actually got a real dad and daughter here to tell us what's
up. So John O'Brien, an accomplished
executive, strategic advisor, Catholic leader and Mountaineer,
but more importantly, a dad who's walked through life with
fire with his child and stood behind her every step of the
(01:32):
way. John is currently the CFO of the
Roman Catholic Diocese of Saint Catherine's and the founder of
O'Brien's Strategic Services, a consulting practice that
supports Catholic organizations across North America.
He spent over 3 decades with theDiocese of Hamilton, overseeing
everything from cemeteries to insurance, while also monitoring
new executives and often complexworld of religious governance.
(01:56):
He's a guy who knows how to reada spreadsheet, run a diocese,
climb a mountain, and maybe harvest.
Hardest of all, love unconditionally when life throws
you curveballs. Wow, you really did some
research there. I think I probably should have
read that before I started swearing every 3rd sentence.
Did we? Get it all That's OK.
(02:16):
Yeah, I think you you covered pretty well the gamut.
Let's go. And then there's one thing on
here that's kind of a fun fact because you 2 And I don't think
you know this, but you guys havesome friends in common.
Yeah, You were for many years involved with the Carpenter's
Hospice. Yes, I was.
Tell us about that. Yeah, I was asked a good a
member of Burlington Golf and Country Club and one of the, my
(02:37):
golfing friends said, who was chair at the time, said you
might be a nice fit for the Carpenter Hospice.
And I knew the work that had been done because I'd had a
couple of former employees actually go through the Hospice
and and their late end of life stage.
So I joined around 2016 or 17 and was on the board for seven
(03:00):
years or so and chaired the lastfor the last eight months and
and then that was that. So, so you were you just leaving
when I came on probably likely that you were the vice chair and
chair that left, Yes, yeah, OK, yeah, understandable.
Yeah, it was. That's awesome.
Why? Because he saw you coming.
(03:21):
No, no, the like the Hospice, Hospice has gone through like a
a ton of changes and just with things that like happen in
society, there's different, different, different governance
that's that's been. Put in place different practices
that in relation to palliative care that philosophically and
(03:44):
right I couldn't, I couldn't agree with so.
Yeah. Well, we've got, we, we have a
couple of paths across there, one of which is Jamie's on the
board currently. Yeah.
And then through our Burlington Dads organization over the
years, we've done some great volunteer cleanups projects,
just, you know, a bunch of guys showing up with tools or paint
brushes and. Yeah.
We love the work you guys do. The board at Carpenter Hospice
(04:06):
has a very high regard for Burlington dads.
Yeah, because they've been really big and strong
contributes and. When you guys left it in like
fantastic shape like that, like financially it's in it's in a
great position. It's it's been helping people on
crazy wait lists for a long time.
Like it's amazing the spot that you guys left it in for us to be
able. To do they do amazing work.
And when you look at the day in and day out experience of of
(04:30):
those nurses and those support staff and what they encounter on
a day-to-day and the accompaniment, that's the
probably the best word I could use for how they accompany
people and they're in stages of life.
It's it's absolutely remarkable.So my hat's going after them.
Same. Yeah.
And and such a essential part ofour community.
I mean, we we see the wait list and what they do to get people
(04:52):
moving through. It's incredible work they do.
So, John, thank you so much for joining us.
I got a few more questions for you as we go, but let's get back
to em. Emily O'Brien, you ready for
your ChatGPT? I'm ready.
Let's see how it did. Emily O'Brien's story is a rare,
raw example of redemption and resilience.
At age 23, she was caught smuggling cocaine and was later
(05:14):
convicted receiving a four year prison sentence.
During her time behind bars, something unexpected happened.
She noticed popcorn was one of the few treats that brought
people together in confinement. With limited spices, lemon,
pepper, dill, she began experimenting.
That simple idea grew into Comeback Snacks, which she has
officially launched after her parole in 2018 with a mission to
(05:35):
fight stigma, hire formerly incarcerated people and build
hope one bag of popcorn at a time.
Today, Emily's brand is stocked in hundreds of outlets across
Canada and the US. She employs people who have
criminal records, works to shiftpublic perception, and speaks
about never letting your past define your future.
Yeah, well, I was actually 25 when I was arrested.
(05:57):
OK, OK, let's we're going to correct ChatGPT after this, so.
Take 23 because then it's like you're 2 years younger right
now, right? Yeah, it's going to matter at
some point. Mature.
Student at that point. So where do you want to start
with that story? So I and I'll I'll say to the
not ChatGPT, but the personal side of this is is you and I got
to meet each other doing some incredible work together.
(06:19):
You were keynoting a youth retreat, let's call it, and
shout out to Shannon and her team at Dare to Be Youth.
You gave a really inspirational kind of fireside chat to those
kiddos. I want to start there, so tell
me in your own words about your story.
Well, I was 25 years old and I found myself, you know, in the
(06:41):
most unlikely of places. And that was going to be federal
prison. And of course, you know, when
you wake up and you have a greatfamily and a great upbringing,
you never expect your life to kind of veer off in that
direction. But obviously there are things
in my life that I could control and things in my life that I
couldn't control. Number one, I could control is
my issues with substances #2 I could not control the fact that
I was in AI. Don't want to say full blown
(07:01):
relationship, but I was close tosomeone who ended up not having
the best intentions for me and brought me on this trip and that
I could not control. I didn't organize this whole
scheme, but like I knew that there were things in my life
that I could have done differently regarding my
substance use and abuse. So that landed me with four year
prison term and I, you know, I pled guilty and I knew that it
was going to be something reallygood.
(07:22):
And you know, shit, my dad, shit, my dad taught me lesson
number one was that there has tobe something good that comes out
of this. And that's just the way that I
was raised. And so now we're 2025 and we're
in eleven No 1300 stores and I've employed about 12 to 13
people that have come out of correctional facilities over the
years. And I'd also launched A
(07:43):
incubator earlier this year for people coming out of
incarceration. And I have had 130 students that
are all going to launch their own company.
That's so cool, yeah. That's great.
So let's go, let's rewind the tapes even more because again,
I'm fascinated because it's it'sour first father daughter.
Tell us how the deal went bad I'll.
Never know. So I want to go back to like day
(08:05):
one because obviously John, you've got you've got quite the
Providence yourself and you're clearly a pillar of the
community and obviously you guyshave a lot of love for each
other. Go back to like the early days.
What was it like having a daughter?
What was it like growing up? Yeah, well, Emily is a middle
child of three daughters and I had four sisters growing up.
(08:25):
My current wife has three daughters.
Even the dogs are female. So my standard line is that I've
been breathing estrogen my entire life.
But there's another story about that, which I won't go into, but
it's, it was a privilege I mean to have.
You're right. I was very involved.
(08:45):
It still am in, in the Catholic Church.
It was, it's in my DNA, essentially my third generation
working for, for the Catholic Diocese in Hamilton.
Was there for 30-4 years and raised, you know, we had Alex in
85 and Emily in 88 and Heather in 91.
(09:05):
And you know, it was, it was great.
Lived in West Hamilton, in McMaster, in Westdale and nice
little 2 1/2 story bungalow and,and it was, it was, you know,
for the most part, it was really, really good.
And you know, being a parent, itwas, you know, you go through
(09:29):
your your trials and tribulations and you know, every
child is different. Every child has their own
interests, their own, their own peculiarities or attributes, if
you want. And so the challenge of being a
parent and and kind of raising three young women, you know, it
was actually a lot of fun over those years.
(09:49):
And it was a lot of fun. It was, Yeah, Grew up playing
sport. And that's why I love, you know,
all the sport decor around here.And sports actually taught me a
lot, a lot of lessons about being in court because it's
actually the same thing as you got an offense, you got a
defense, you're in a court, and you might even fight with your
own team, AKA your legal team. You know, things didn't always
go the way as planned, but it actually, yeah, taught me a lot
(10:09):
of the lessons that I learned from playing growing up playing
competitive sport. I kind of used that and the
court case. Not just because you got put in
the penalty box. Yeah, not too.
Emily, we, she played Rep basketball.
I think all three girls at one point played Rep basketball.
But Emily was the one, you know,she was MVP, provincial champion
(10:30):
for Hamilton Transway, which waskind of the premier, you know,
young girls basketball program might still be, I'm not sure.
But no, she really took to she had a fire.
She was incredibly competitive, quick study and, you know, just
brought a lot of energy, which kind of you see before you now.
(10:51):
But yeah, so it was a lot of funwhen I'm getting to be getting
to coach was a lot of fun just because you you have a different
perspective because you have other there's other kids on the
team, they have different skill sets as well.
And it's how do you kind of moldall these kind of individual
attributes into the kind of one kind of cohesive unit that, you
(11:15):
know, to achieve like basically winning?
Yeah, he was the coach of our Red Ball team.
There you go too. So.
Go, Dad, I. Know.
Putting in the time. And then so as as life is
progressing, then so you get into this relationship that you
said right, that obviously had I'll intent to it.
What what is that take us back to that moment?
(11:36):
Like, how do we go from athlete home girl to, you know, drifting
down that path and meeting theseother people?
Like what? What did that whole journey look
like? Yeah, so I had graduated
university, I graduated with honors.
And there were situations in school that, you know, involved
alcohol that weren't the greatest.
But I, you know, didn't think I was really touchable at that
(11:57):
point, You know, because you're like all my life, I have my
whole life ahead of me. And, you know, I was had, I
always had jobs. And so I kind of just ignored
that element. And I was like, you know, I'm
passing with fine colors. Like I'm always employed.
I always volunteer. So I kind of use that as my
like, not an excuse, but anyway,you thought.
You were a bulletproof. Yeah, yeah.
You were covering your other bases, so you're a bulletproof.
(12:18):
Well, there you go. And then so part of my degree
was doing an internship because my undergrad was in
International Development. And so I worked for the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs in Indonesia,came back, worked a bunch of
marketing jobs and ended up living in Toronto and Liberty
Village. And you know, there is that's a
lifestyle where things are blendin easily with one another and
things are accepted. And so when you're going through
(12:41):
whatever it is, you can just go to a party and it seems like
everything's fine because no onereally notices, right.
And so I met this guy through mywork like I had my own company
at the time and he's allegedly sober.
So we became friends and I, because I knew that I wasn't
where I wanted to be, but I justdidn't want to really admit it
because again, when you have your own company, who's you're
not supposed to be weak. And so I was like, OK, I'm just
(13:04):
going to power, power through this and power through this,
this period of kind of like uncertainty and whatever it was.
And then I met him and he was like, yeah, you know, I've known
him for about 8 months and he asked me to go on a trip with
him and he booked the tickets three days later.
And there were some warning signs, but I just ignored them
because I didn't think they werethat big of a deal.
He like, he helped me walk my dog, like really simple things
(13:26):
that I thought were really valuable.
But then there's like other things like he kind of owed my
company money and there's a car that was involved that I bought
from him and I never got it. And then he also got me like
gifts that I never really asked for.
Like, and then one of them, likehe bought me the sound system
that my mom found out later had like cement in the in the
speakers. And he got me like a watch with
(13:48):
no battery that I never asked for.
And like dessert, like I don't drink dessert wine.
Like, I don't know why he got meall these things, but I just, I
blew it off because I was like, OK, thank you for helping me
walk my dog into these things. Anyway, so he asked me to go on
this trip. The three the three days into
the trip are the first three days are fine.
They're fine. But then he puts me and then I'm
about to go down to the pool oneday and he's like, you're not
going down to the pool today. Did you really just think so
(14:08):
It's all fun and games. I thought yes, I wasn't even
afraid at that point, like I wasn't I didn't think I was in
danger like I wasn't. So we go in the car, then we go
to this house and looks like a bed and breakfast and it's
actually a lady comes out and she's like an older lady.
It's not like rabid dogs, it's not guns.
It's like I wasn't hurt that she's just like, thank you so
(14:29):
much for doing this. And I guess he owed a bunch of
money to them. So anyway, by the end of the
week, I was strapped up with twokilograms of drugs.
So put on my body. He had it too and then put on
the airplane. And I told him I didn't want to
do it. I told him I just wanted to go
home. Like he had my passport.
He when he put my passport in the safe, he had taken it at
some point so I couldn't get it back.
And yeah, so on the Friday, I was like, I'm a terrible liar.
(14:53):
And I actually tell us almost asa joke now, because like, I took
acting like I did musical theatre when I was young.
And then as I've tried to do more musical theatre, I realized
I was a terrible actress. I was so bad.
Like I was in James and the Giant Peach and my role was an
extra with no lines. So it's like I was like, I just,
I honestly just wanted to go home and I, I knew that I wasn't
(15:13):
like a gangster and I just wanted to go home and I didn't
know what the repercussions werebecause I didn't plan this.
I wasn't like, oh, the Criminal Code does, right?
So ignorance was not bliss, but I just wanted to go home.
And then once they called us into secondary, I was like,
honestly just like done protecting him.
But I couldn't also deliberatelysabotage this operation because
they weren't my narcotics. I was like, oh, help me then it
(15:34):
was my fault for losing like hundreds of thousands of dollars
of drugs, which is what he told me.
Then I would be in like a lot oftrouble.
So I just when we got called in secondary, they asked me a
series of questions and they looked me straight in the eye.
I looked him straight in the eyewhen he asked me if I had
anything on me because they weregoing to do a physical search.
And I looked him straight in theeye and I said yes.
And I was, I chose to be completely like sober that day.
(15:56):
I was like, I don't want the alcohol to try and mask what's
happening so my body language can be the loudest language in
the room. And I knew at that point, just
lying to a federal agent was, you know, I telling the officer
the truth was like the best feeling ever, even though I
didn't really know where it was going to lead.
Did you tell the officer like the full truth, like, hey, like
I'm being forced to do this or no, you just.
(16:16):
Took, I said I wanted to get away from him and I was, I think
I was still in a bit of shock, but I was, it just felt good to
say like, yes, I have these on me because I knew that I had to
tell the truth. And 2 1/2 years of house arrest
later, the worst period I would say because you're in a lot of
mental anguish, you're not allowed to talk about the case.
You've never been in this situation before.
(16:37):
You're I was very angry. I was still in denial.
I wanted revenge And I like it was actually being at home and
looking at old photos of like your life and where you were
before and like how happy you were.
That's when you know that you'reactually a good person.
So like looking back on the pastisn't necessarily a bad thing.
And that's when I was like, I just, I couldn't live in that
mental anguish anymore. And for my family as as well,
(16:59):
you know, I put them through a lot of was very challenging, but
I knew that I, I owed it to themas well, my sisters and, and
myself to know use my rebelliousness for something
good. I got me into trouble in, in the
past, but I knew that I could use those, that same skill set
of fighting for something to do something good.
And the first step of that was taking accountability.
(17:19):
And I don't want to say surrendering, but just
realizing, you know, this is what is going to happen and it's
going to be good for you. And so I I saw it as an
investment because, you know, the legal fees were
extraordinary and I was like, OK, if I'm going to, you know,
drain my finances and, you know,family, like luckily help me
out, but I was like, OK, if I'm going to, if we're going to
(17:40):
spend this amount on anything, it's going to be an investment
in my sobriety and my education.And I'm going to see it as a
sabbatical. So that's kind of how I reframed
prison as. And once I kind of took that
step in reframing it, I think that was when I was like, I was
ready. I was ready for the challenge.
And I don't know what I was going to build because I've
never been to prison before, butand it was gonna be something
different and good. What?
(18:02):
What made it so expensive? Like if you're gonna plead
guilty to like a federal charge,Hmm.
What made the court case like solong and so expensive?
Was it? I think it was a 407 fees from
Hamilton toll fees. Not not cheap this, but.
Probably this commercial broughtto you by because the.
Sentencing, they probably, they probably wanted a heavier
sentencing and that's what you're trying.
To find, you know, what I have to say, even though Emily and I
(18:23):
had some very hard conversations, you know, in that
Phase I, I look, I knew what thelawyer I wanted to go to.
When you're in Hamilton for 30 years, you get to know who's the
best of the best in certain fields.
And we're really fortunate to get the legal counsel we did.
And we had, you know, Emily and I had some hard conversations
and she wanted to fight it. And, and, and, you know, I'd
(18:46):
already had a lot of sidebar conversations around what this
could look like in terms of a legal strategy.
And it was to me, it was very clear cut from the from the
outset, we're pleading guilty because you are.
And we need to move beyond this.And the longer this gets played
(19:08):
out, the longer this gets foughtbecause which I don't know if
you recall him, but the the factyou got a four year sentence was
it's. Crazy low.
Crazy low because the minimum sentencing guidelines were
seven. I don't know what conversations
took place, but I you know, I knew there were, you know,
(19:29):
between various legal counsels, between back and forth, there
was a lot of negotiations that went on.
And when when he came back and said, I think we've got 4I
nearly fell off my chair And it was like, and, and it was like,
OK, this is the direction we need to go in.
And, and there really wasn't. I didn't give Emily the you
(19:53):
know, that was her life as. Heavy as that sounds like that's
really, really light for that. For that, for that offense, it
was it's. Yeah, it's a blessing.
Yeah, that's a great word for it, actually.
It was. It was a blessing because and my
boss at the time, he's now the retired Bishop of Hamilton,
showed up in court for Emily sentencing that day.
(20:16):
And her mother's there. And, you know, there was just
good family. My parents were there who were
alive at the time. And, you know, it was just, I
think when she saw the judge sawthat it was confirmation of all
the discussions they had heard up until that point in time.
And and then it was that was thelast time we saw her.
(20:36):
Like they took her away right, right there in handcuffs.
And you never want to see that involving your child.
Yeah. I told, I told them I was just
going to camp. That's going to be OK because I
like when I was on charges, I still did some volunteering and
I end up meeting this woman because my social media company
(20:57):
every month we'd work with like an organization and do the
social media for free. And I just chose the John Howard
Society. And then through this, through
the John Howard Society, they had a company called Crank
Coffee. I'm not Crank coffee.
My my friends on that one. It's like another coffee
company. Nice plug, nice plug.
Great company. I forget what it's called.
(21:17):
Well, oh, clink, clink coffee. And it was run by, like, all the
formerly incarcerated. And so I actually met this woman
who had been to the present for the same sentence as me.
And she ended up helping like, my mom and dad and just give me
some very real guidelines for what I was about to experience.
So that was also really helpful.So I was definitely nervous and
(21:37):
afraid, but not as afraid as I was if I hadn't had met her.
Basically, Yeah. And what's, what's the
communication channel like? Like So you're, you're in with
that officer, you're clearly admitting to fault.
What's the first time you talk to dad after that?
What does that look like? I think it was when I was like
that. I have my bail hearing, I think
(21:58):
at the court on the Monday. Yeah, well, we knew when we find
out she was arrested and and I just had a sick sense, they kind
of had an idea what it might be about just because up until like
Emily had to me in terms of a parent fallen off a Cliff in in
Toronto and it was living a lifethat was not, it was not going
(22:20):
to be beneficial for her anyway.So when I just had a sense, sick
sense, not a 6th sentence of where things were going.
And, and that was the first and we knew she's going to be,
excuse me, into the provincial holding cell in, in Milton,
which is a horrific place. And fortunately she was there a
(22:45):
very brief time and we went to see her for the first time after
she was arrested. We saw her there.
And and then we, I don't know how long you ended up in, in
that location before because we had, yeah, the timings, a little
blur, a little bit of a blur now. 10 years. 2015 when I was
(23:06):
arrested. Yeah, a decade.
But yeah, anyway, that facility there was an eye opener for all
the wrong reasons. You have an idea of kind of what
incarceration looks like or whatprison looks like and but when
you're inside it for the first time, and that was my first
exposure to kind of being insidea provincial corrections
(23:28):
facility. And it is just it to me, it's
nightmarish. And and you, you wonder how
people can come out better from that experience, regardless of
what you're being charged with. But you're not.
We just just had to stay the course, you know, that's we
(23:51):
sought out like into the best legal advice we could.
And we just kind of began this journey of, you know, hearings
and house arrest and, you know, all these kind of restrictions,
which were, you know, obviously part of the process.
And of necessity, I would argue at the time because it did put
(24:12):
some limits kind of around, you know, Emily had been living a
pretty free and pretty pretty free lifestyle up until that
point. And this was actually the first
kind of steps to, OK, just kind of pulling things in.
You couldn't, you couldn't. You had certain restrictions.
(24:33):
And I remember, I laugh at it now, but at one point she was on
parole and. Parole or bail?
No, this was parole, I think. Remember we went to this
village. I'm I took we, we went to a
movie. We, we went to Hess village.
(24:55):
I went to a movie and as a family and then, you know, all
those go to this place and this well, I didn't realize that one
one of one of her conditions wasno bars, nothing.
And once the the bail of the officer, Oh, did I get raked
over the clothes by her? I said, I like I own this.
This is on B this. I just thought, you know, we
(25:16):
could go out and kind of celebrate the evening together.
Clearly chose the wrong venue. It was an escorted temporary
absence, which is like when I'm still in prison but I get to go
for. The week, that's what it was,
yeah. So do you do you look back on it
like as a as a man of faith and in a way, because some people
wouldn't understand this, but like seeing the path that she
(25:38):
was going down, look back and almost see what happened as a
blessing because like that couldhave that path could have went
so many other ways. And as hard as that was to go
through like. Without question.
Without question, your daughter it did that getting.
You know you're talking about divine intervention of your
personal faith. Her getting pulled aside for a
(26:00):
secondary inspector to me probably saved your life.
Yeah, I don't doubt that becauseI.
Imagine you guys. I don't know where my life would
be. Like that road wouldn't have
ended like you. Would have no, because it was
getting really sketchy, even even, you know, just from what I
was hearing through through my wife at the time.
And it was just very, yeah, very, very concerning because
(26:23):
because of her associates and the people that should she was
just kind of sinking into this nether world, if you want to
call it that, of that there. And once you're in you're you
know, there's really a few options for.
But I think the two big words that I think were kind of
throughout all of that, one being forgiveness, 2 being
(26:45):
redemption. And you mentioned that in your
little intro. So I was actually happy to hear
that. But that's what it's all about.
And if you're a parent, there's a tendency and and you know, not
every kid is open to it. Every kid has their own
personality, their own interests, their own fire.
You want to call it that. Fortunately, Emily was, you
(27:09):
know, was able to have that had that self reflective piece that
as stubborn as she wasn't fighting it because it was it
meant a total wholesale change and it and it took her a while
to kind of kind of process all of that.
But if you can kind of support them with this notion that every
(27:31):
person, if they're one, is open to for forgiveness and
redemption, and that if you can kind of get to that place, then
you can that maintains the lifeline in terms of
relationship with that child. And that's what keeps it kind of
as tight as that thing might getpulled and as hard as it might
(27:54):
be to kind of hold on sometimes,if you can keep it there and
eventually the tension eases andthe person comes back and that's
what you hope for is apparent. I'm so glad you guys did and I'm
fascinated by use your words, you know, Ms. falling off a
Cliff and then you get this call.
(28:16):
What's the conversations and andrelationship like during the
Cliff fall and then when you getthat call?
They were sporadic, to be honest, because we'd seen a
little bit of MLA has always hadthis real independent streak.
And we started to see it in highschool.
(28:38):
Yeah. I remember driving around
Ancaster at 2:00 in the morning one weekend trying to find out
what party she was at. And but then this was a kid that
would disappear on a Friday night.
And then. But she knew she had to read at
Mass on Sunday at 5 and show youshow up 4:45 here ready to go.
And we hadn't seen her all weekend.
And we're pulling her hair out, trying to find out where she
(28:59):
was. And it was.
So that's what kind of I. Assume just rehearsing for mass.
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think so.
But, you know, so we had, we sawthis streak or, you know, kind
of develop over those years. But you know, when you get to
that point in time, that's when they actually the relationship
(29:20):
strengthened, you know, because you knew you weren't going to
let her go. That was never an option.
So what? So, OK, what does this look like
now? You got a kid that's kind of in
the in the to a certain extent, fighting kind of maintain the
freedom that she had built, evenif it was the wrong kind of
(29:42):
freedom. And you want to bring her back
and point her in a different direction.
But you just you just have to bethere.
And yeah, and as much as it leads to tension and other
relationships, and you know, it's it's hard.
It's hard on everyone because all of a sudden you've got three
(30:03):
daughters and now you're kind offocused on one.
And because that's where the need is and you just do.
He's like, you got a good dad on.
Your I know he's the best. He's a.
Real 1. So I forced him to do this.
I was like, we will need to knowmore about you.
Yeah. You know, it's fascinating
stuff. And then so now go to present
(30:26):
day because you guys, I mean, the first time I met him, you
probably talked about your dad within 3 minutes of of meeting.
So obviously there's been another chapter of that
relationship, which is today. What's what's that like for you
and what's it like having a dad like that?
Oh, it's the best. I love him so.
And I realized all the things that I did when I was younger,
like even like reading in church, I use all those skills
(30:48):
now. You know, I learned how to speak
in front of people and talk to people of all different ages.
Like even though it's maybe I don't know, a teenager and I was
talking to, I was reading words I didn't even understand half
the time, but I was still doing those things.
So all those skills are instilled at me at a very young
age. And even I'm working at the
cemetery with people who didn't speak English, you know, it was
like, I got to learn so many great skills from, from a
(31:12):
relationship. So it's it's awesome.
Yeah. And what's your answer to that,
John? Yeah, you know, we're obviously
Emily's the one that, you know, with three daughters and we've
got one or two grand, one has two good two daughters and other
one's got a got a career focus as well.
And but Emily, you're not what Ireally appreciate from Emily.
(31:33):
I get these random texts like just out of the blue because I'm
to be honest, I'm not the best community.
Like I'm, I'm not the first one.Like, oh, I need to like I hear
some other dads. Well, I talk to my I talk to my
daughter every week and we have this conversation.
I don't for whatever reason, that skill set I have to still
develop, still working on the work in progress.
(31:53):
But Emily is the one who has great spontaneous kind of all of
a sudden there's something how you doing today or what's you
want to go this So the contact you know Emily, I will be on it.
Emily does a better job of contacting reaching out to me.
So that's very gratifying and it's kind of this is nice.
(32:15):
This is good. Yeah, so cool.
And then just do the sibling thing real quick because I think
that's fascinating too, because like, when a family goes
throughout, the whole family goes through it, right?
Yeah. What are things like with your
sisters now? What were their reactions?
Really, really good. I mean, the hardest thing I
think this year and how kind of your charges can your history or
(32:36):
whatever can still impact you a decade later?
Like when I was arrested, my younger sister wouldn't talk to
me for months. And so I was like, OK, I really.
And like, I loved her. I was very close with her.
And so that was like, not like, I was like, I need to restore
this. And obviously we're great now.
She's obviously very hurt, embarrassed, and, you know, I
was mortified and, and I wanted to make things right with her.
(32:59):
And so now we're super close. But this year she was, she was
getting married in London and they just changed the rules to
go like, so you can't go to London if you have like a record
now. They just changed it this year.
So I had to tell my sister, London, England.
I had to tell and I'm supposed to be a bridesmaid.
And this is the wedding was planned for two years.
And so I had to tell my sister, I can't come to your wedding now
(33:20):
because my charges from 10 yearsago.
So it's like these things can still persist.
And she was actually great with it.
And the entrepreneur in me was like, all right, I'll meet you
in France. I can go there.
So I met her in France after, but it was still very, very
challenging because I know that was, you know, the most
important day for life. And it's like I still felt like
it was my fault and it was my fault and.
(33:41):
But she was obviously great. But yeah, I'm very close with,
definitely close with my youngersister.
Love my love, my nieces, love myolder sister.
Yeah. We go to, we do family stuff way
more than we used to, which is which is nice.
So yeah. There you go.
And then shift to, you know, theentrepreneurial pursuit because
I definitely want to talk about comeback snacks.
(34:01):
So how I know in my intro, I covered it a little bit, but
like, so your world's falling apart.
You're like, I'm gonna make somepopcorn.
Like how did that, how did that come about?
South part of I want to say my substance use is actually
initiated by like a eating disorder.
And I knew that going to so I had like concord conquering
disorders for about like I don'twant to say maybe 10 years even.
(34:24):
So I went to prison. I was like, I'm not going to
fall into this again. This is not going to beat me.
And so making popcorn in prison was like my favorite thing to do
because, you know, there's high tension, there's limited
exercise, and things can go awryvery quickly.
And so I start making popcorn. Then people chime in and like
contribute like their little recipes, like when they were in
like Macs or whatever. And we'd use just random things
(34:45):
that we had. So I was in medium security, so
we had access to like a little kitchen that was like like
provided by the prison where youcould sort of like a kitchen,
like a store. And so you had like a budget.
You could get like 30-6 dollars of groceries a week.
And then you could also buy stuff off the canteen with your
own money. You want popcorn?
Yeah. And I bought kernels off the
canteen. And then I'd use stuff that I
could get on the prison store to, like, make things.
(35:08):
And then people chime in and we talked about jobs and employment
and what I, what I realized in prison was that everyone in
there, like, really wanted redemption.
Not everyone, but like the people that I talked to.
Like you realize that something wrong is going on in their life
prior to that. Like there's a lot of most
people don't wake up and want todo something wrong and and harm
other people or whatever it is. And but it's so hard to get
(35:30):
another chance. Even though you've done your
time, It's like you're still condemned by society.
And that doesn't just hurt like society because it puts people
at risk if people can get a job,but also like, you know, the
economy, like there's businesseslike, and with comeback snacks,
I was like, maybe I can hire people and prove that we are
worthy of second chances and prove all these myths wrong
because I wanted a challenge. And once I get a new challenge
that I can focus on, it's like Idon't let go.
(35:52):
I'm like a pit bull. So I was like, OK, I'm going to
prove this. And I know it's going to be
hard. I'm going to get a lot of
naysayers, but like, not tellingthe truth as to what happened to
me. Like that would make it the
whole thing worthless, right? And I also knew that no one's
going to cancel me in the future.
So. So we do live in that world too.
So might as well just come out and say it.
Yeah. And just just own it.
(36:14):
And doing that was the best thing that I ever did.
And despite the challenges, but the those those naysayers have
gone gone quiet. So because everyone wants to say
something in the beginning, but I kind of just use that as I
don't want to say like haters for my motivators, but it fueled
the fire, the fire that. And it's like kind of just like
a OK, watch me, like I'll, I'll do it.
(36:35):
And it's been the best. Did you start getting the
business stuff going while you were in jail or?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my current business partner,
he came on as like a volunteer in the beginning.
And I'd write these blog articles.
He'd put. We had this, like, landing page
that we put up. And I also read 82 books and I
wrote letters to all the authors.
And I'm telling you, marketing hack, if you want someone to
open something, send them a letter from prison because
(36:56):
you'll get a hold of them right away.
You know, e-mail has what, a 5% open rate?
Letters from prison 100%. Yeah, So that's how I began to
build this network of authors and like, mentors.
Dave Chilton's. I wrote an article called The
Relatively Wealthy Inmate, and Ibased it off the Dave Chilton's
book, The Wealthy Barber, and I mailed it to his office, and
(37:16):
he's been incredibly helpful ever since.
So it's just doing like things like that.
And people would send me in foodtrends.
And then we designed the logo while we were still inside.
We'd sketch designs back and forth and snail mail.
What else do we do? So yeah, by the time I got out
and the prison actually let me out for a day because they heard
what was going on, they let me out for an afternoon.
I had like a security guard withme to go give out free samples
(37:38):
of popcorn at this event and I had to go back to the prison.
There's another awesome marketing.
Hack but. With your own security detail.
Yeah, everybody's going. On who is this?
It must be important, yeah. Well, well, in a manner of
speaking. And then what else?
And then I got so when I got out.
So kind of like building all thefun stuff inside snail mail
like, and that's what people think people think like because
(38:00):
you're confined, you really havenothing.
But when you're confinement is just like a thought, it's not
actually true. Like in there I realized I had
like more resources than I ever thought.
Like I joined the music program and I wrote 2 songs, Rope
recorded, produced 2 songs that were then played on CBC, right?
So it's just, you can do so muchif you just open up your mind to
it. And I made friends with all the
(38:21):
volunteers that would come in who I now work with.
There's a program called Stride that would come in and they'd
give you cards and you can mail them out to your family.
And so now what I do is I send them come back snacks to bring
into the prisons to give out. So it's cool.
That's wicked, yeah. Yeah, that we see, we see that
in different facets too. And we obviously we we talked to
(38:41):
a lot of young men on this show and guys were just trying to
figure out how to get an idea off the ground.
But the common theme that we always hear is, you know, why
don't you just do it? Like do it with the resources
you have, do it now because there isn't a better time.
And then just just start going. Make the mistakes and figure it
out. For sure, yeah like we always
like, I mean, shout out to Finding Nemo, that Dory quote
(39:03):
about the just keep swimming. Like that's the one where every
time I'm like, no, you're probably, if you just keep
swimming, yeah, it's probably out there for you.
And then so you get out and thenis that when you started to get
the real traction? Cuz I know you're in over 100
locations now and things are. 1000, yeah, Business 100
etcetera or? Something is that what it was?
Yeah, business is shopping rightnow.
(39:24):
So how did that? Is.
That. Is that your job joke?
Is brought to you by so like comeback snacks.
That's it. So how did that go?
So you get out, you just you hitthe ground running.
So I had to actually get a job with a paycheck because that's
one of the conditions. Like they don't just want, you
know, people have been imprisoned as hop and some
entrepreneurial venture given you know, that most of them are
(39:46):
in there for an illegal entrepreneurial venture.
Especially if it's just a kernelof an idea, I mean.
Yeah, So what I did was like, OK, what other places are
synonymous with rebirth or second chance?
I was like the gym and I was like, I've always been very
active. So I took the I made what I call
the prison resume and had all the jobs that I had while I was
in prison. So I was like gardener McCann
(40:06):
and I did all these jobs in prison because I went to learn
how to drywall. I learned all these things.
And so I took that to the gym and I had my inmate number on
it. And I was like, I to be honest,
I just got out of prison and I'mlooking for a second chance.
And I've always loved fitness and but this is my real story.
And they gave me the job on the spot.
And so while I worked at this gym near the halfway house, I,
they also let me do like little events at the gym when they had
(40:27):
open houses and give out the popcorn.
And I shared the story with the media.
And I'm glad that I so the halfway house was actually in
Hamilton, which is where, you know, I was born and raised.
And so people could relate to me, the Emily that they knew not
like the Toronto Emily, like, you know, that person was I
don't even know whatever a phase.
And so I worked with this reporter from the Hamilton
Spectator who actually went to high school with and she made
(40:49):
sure that the story was told like on my terms and not like on
these like, oh, bad criminal terms.
So it was 8 pages long and it was one of the most read
articles of the entire year. So it was told like from the
very beginning how this happens and what's happening now.
And then that got picked up in the Toronto Star.
And then I did like Vice and CTVMorning Show.
And so just kind of went went from there.
(41:11):
And within the first six months,we had our first hire as another
person that had been incarcerated.
So just, and I always call it a community built business because
I couldn't have done it alone. Like there's people that donated
product, that donated packaging that like let us use their space
for free. And everyone just wanted to
help. And so that's why I say like,
definitely community, community built and continues to be.
Yeah, and people do when you go back to that authenticity piece,
(41:33):
you know, like if you lead with that, if you if you tell your
story upfront, it's amazing how many people will, you know, show
support, show empathy. We say the same thing too, when
people are always asking about like, how did you get those
mentors? Like your example is great about
sending letters to authors and like, how do you ever make those
connections? And the honest answer is like,
if you just go for it, if you just find somebody you want to
(41:55):
learn from or you're inspired bya book they wrote or a talk they
gave, like just reach out authentically.
And and it's like most people are OK to help and, and most
people want to see other people do well if they understand and
who that person is. And that's that authenticity
piece too, right. So I had a few questions about
that. I just kind of want to hear your
(42:16):
perspective on. And one of them was if you could
rewind the tapes and talk to 25 year old Emily just before this
happened, What do you? Say to this.
Question. I know I got to know.
What would I say? I said, buckle up, it's going to
be a rough ride. I know that people asked me if I
would have changed anything. And I said the one thing I would
change was like my family were innocent victims.
(42:37):
But I honestly think I had to gothrough this every like I had
to, right. And I think I still call it the
easy way out. Absolutely.
Because there's a lot of people that are incarcerated.
They don't, they don't have the family support, you know, and
they suffer tremendous abuse in their lives and there's
substance abuse all throughout the family and their family is
convincing them to commit crimes.
And I, my family is the opposite.
(42:58):
So that's what I'm eternally grateful for.
And so I'm, I'm honestly very, you know, appreciative of, of
them. And but yeah, that that's what I
would change is they didn't deserve any of that.
It's crazy when to say like you were super lucky to get caught
your first time, right? Because like, the worst thing
would have been you get through and then you're stuck in that
cycle for a while. And like, it could have gotten
(43:19):
so much worse. Yeah.
Like you're super lucky to get caught the first time.
Yeah, it was. It was a downward spiral,
without question. Yeah.
And unfortunately, it's just as things were, you know, falling
out and falling out the Cliff for the precipice.
You know, she was God and that was again a blessing.
And to own. One wonder.
Yeah. And to say, hey, that was the
path that it was like, I wouldn't change a thing because
(43:41):
like I owned it, I learned from it.
And I'm, I'm, I'm here. I'm crushing it, right?
There's a there's a great image and I picked this up.
It's not mine, but it's really apartment.
If you're driving a car, you know the front windshield is 1
size. The rearview mirror is another,
and if you focus too much on therear view mirror, you do have to
just to check occasionally, but if you focus too much on the
(44:02):
rear view mirror, you end up in the ditch.
But the windshield, the front windshield is of a size because
it gives you much wider and a broader perspective.
And that for whatever in that imagery, that metaphor, if you
want to call it that, really sticks or really has meaning for
me. Because it just means, yes,
everyone has a past and there's going to be incidents and
(44:25):
episodes that you look back and with regret or with maybe
sadness or whatever it is. But if you're focused on the
future and focused on what can be and not what was, then you
opened up a whole world of possibilities.
Yeah, Shadow Jelly Roll. That's Jelly Rolls quote, is
that I? Met him, I gave him AI, gave him
(44:47):
a bag of my peanut butter and Jelly popcorn.
OK. That's where it was.
Good. Thank you for that.
There's a reason that the windshield is bigger than the
rear Vermeer. It's because everything in your
future you're looking forward ismore important than the things
in the in the in behind you. Yeah, I also think now I have
like the tool kit to deal with more things, like now they've
been through prison and like nowI have like the yeah, the
comeback blueprint basically. So because it's not going to be
(45:09):
the last time something happens or you know, whatever, like
you're going to lose people in your life, things are going to
go wrong in business, wherever, and you know, you're going to
feel the pain from that, but youjust can't necessarily turn to
what I call Botox for the soul, so.
How do you go through choosing who you want to bring on board
to be on your team like you? You're hiring.
(45:30):
Well, the finance, the finance department chooses if we can
hire people in the first place. Don't think that's what he was
asked. There's.
Probably a lot of people that like wanna wanna ride your
coattails and be on your team because like, you know, you, you
got a great message. So there's probably people
coming out of incarceration thatwanna be on your team.
And how do you How do you decidewho you pick and how you go?
Yeah. So it depends.
(45:52):
I would say if the way they reach out to me, if they call me
and then because some people will ask certain things and then
I'll never hear from them again.Yeah, a lot of the times there's
people at events there. I was doing a, a trade show a
couple weeks ago and there's this company that came up.
They're like, oh, we, we actually promoted your, your
popcorn at Metro and they waited, They came back to my
booth 2 times because I was walking around doing other
(46:13):
things. They're like, it's only here,
It's only here. And they're like, can we please,
can we please do more sampling and more promo for.
So they stuck it out twice when I was there and then I finally
met them and I was like, absolutely.
So they worked for like another organization I think that hired
them to sample our products. So we had never actually met
them because we sometimes work with third party providers and
I'm just like, yeah, I'll like work with you direct now too.
So it's great just taking like unique and direct approaches.
(46:36):
Yeah, people putting the time in.
Yeah, the effort. That's awesome.
Yeah, one word for your journey so far.
How would you summarize it? What's one word for?
Your kamikaze. OK, no, that's.
No, I would say one word. Have you learned anything?
(46:57):
Tasmanian Devil. There you go, whirling Dervish.
That's 2 words. I want to say like fulfilling,
but like, cuz you look, you actually take all the lessons
that you've learned and put theminto your future.
Yeah, that makes sense. Is that a good word?
Fulfilling. Yeah.
OK. I'm not.
I'm not the vocabulary coach. I'd say blessed in a lot of
(47:19):
ways. Grateful.
Family, yeah. Grateful, grateful.
I think that's a great. One, that's a good.
Final answer, grateful. Yeah, that's a great one.
Yeah, the and with Dad here too.Let's put you both on the spot.
I'm going to ask, what's some ofthe best advice you ever got
from your dad at any period in life?
(47:40):
So this is something that he might not remember, but we were
in like Jumbo video when it still existed.
And I wanted to watch a movie that was 14 A and I was not 14.
And I was like, will you please?And he's like, Emily, just never
wish your life away. That's why this resonated with
me. Wow.
There you go. Never wish for the future
(48:00):
because it's going to come too quick.
So never. Didn't Jumbo video used to have
the free popcorn? When you walked around.
Too. Yeah, there's a theme here.
Oh my gosh, you're right. There's a theme that's.
Where it all started? You know, and those little those
the little yellow circle and I said, 14.
I really want to, but can I was like, I can't wait till I'm 14
or something. But don't wish your life away.
(48:20):
Yeah. And what's the what's the wisdom
you'd want to impart if you had a microphone in front of you and
a bunch of dads and other kids listening?
What's What's the wisdom? Pay attention to your child.
You know, we've, we're so busy in life and if you've got, you
know, other kids, you've got a spouse, you've got a family,
you've got a job, you've got allof these distractions.
(48:43):
And at the end of the day, asidefrom your family, those are the
things are distractions. They might have elements of
necessity about them. You need to put food on the
table. You need, you know, money in
your bank account to a certain extent, but pay attention to
your kids because you need to the world today is, is not the
world I grew up in. I grew up in a, you know, by
(49:05):
comparison, a really safe world.And I see the stuff on social
media today and see how kids are, you know, you see the
mental health challenges in young people today and they're,
it's an epidemic. So the best advice I could give
into a a room full of dads wouldbe pay attention to your kids,
get involved with their lives, set boundaries that you know,
(49:30):
are are good and logical and reasonable and, and stay with
them for the journey. Yeah.
Every child wants to be independent.
Every child wants to kind of gets to a point where they want
to start to live their own life.And they think they are at a
stage where they can do that. And oftentimes it's just a
(49:51):
little bit early in the game to do that.
And that's where they can get into trouble.
So it's kind of walking alongside to the extent that
that child will let you. But I think as long as you stay
interested and and you just evenat a point in time where a child
may not want the relationship with you, do what you can to
(50:13):
maintain that relationship to that child.
Yeah, and then now we'll talk about your baby comeback snacks
aspirationally or what's? What's on the calendar?
Where are you guys headed? Got any goals?
Got any big things we can look out for?
Yeah, for sure. So we're, you saw that kind of
half of it. The new packaging.
Packaging might seem so simple, but it there's so much work that
(50:36):
goes into package. I'm telling you, this has been
two years and in the making. So we're very excited.
We're going to launch all four, all four flavors.
We're also, we're going to be launching 2 new sizes for
category expansion. So instead of like trying to
expand all the US and just grocery, which is like what a
lot of CPG companies do and thencrash and burn because it's like
(50:56):
the costs are just exorbitant, exorbitant.
Exorbitant. Exorbitant.
Let's just edit that out. The costs are high.
The costs are very high. And I've seen so many companies
just crash and burn. Plus it's so like crazy down
there anyway. I've had friends that don't have
a record that are getting, you know, having issues at the
border. So I wonder what happened to me.
So we're, we're finding that if we alter some of the and like
(51:18):
have different sizing options wecan fit into now gas,
convenience, food service or hotels.
We already do work in these areas.
But the feedback that we've gotten from working with our
with our vendors is like, yeah, if you do this kind of size.
So working on the sizes and thenworking on, I can't talk about
it yet publicly, but a very special collaboration for next
year that started at the actually when I was in prison in
(51:42):
2018, so. Well, we're rooting for you.
It's so fun to watch and we're ahuge fan of the product too.
Like my girls are just obsessed.And I love the slogan.
The slogan's killing. Yeah, that was another thing.
It's like, take all the words that people use against you.
It's like you're criminal and you're badass.
OK, I did something bad. I yes, but I'm not a criminal.
Every single day of my life, it's like that was one of the
things I did. I looked back and I was like,
(52:03):
OK, I'm this old, how many days are in a year?
And OK, so I did that on like what one day.
No, I've had no had ADOI 2009 sobut we don't I've made my my
mistakes, but not nearly as mistakes as days that I've
lived. I've done also done good things.
So. Popcorn's so good it's criminal.
Made with conviction, yeah. Made with conviction.
(52:23):
We have a segment on the show called Tell Us a Dad Joke.
I wonder if I could ask you guysto tell us a dad joke.
Whoever wants to go first. OK, well I just, you know, I was
a director of cemeteries for a very, very long time and I had a
very important job because I hadlike 75,000 people under me.
(52:44):
That joke's for the dying crowd.But just understand this, I will
be the last to let you down. OK.
At least you said no one complaints there, right?
Oh, I wouldn't go so far to say that.
It's not dead. Quiet.
It's it's not dead. No, we get all the the
complaints are from the living. Why doesn't my grave look like
(53:08):
a, you know, a golf green you get?
A lot of dirt on them or. No, they get, they think they
have a lot of dirt on me actually, and that's I've
actually had a lot of dirt in meover the year.
I haven't dug a few graves by hand so.
They complain. Do they roll over?
Yeah, it's a tough thing to dig up like that.
(53:29):
I Yeah, that's right. We can keep going.
How how much time we got, Miles?OK, you got to follow that one
up M all. Right.
Well, I just wanted to say thanks to Latte for having us
all on the show today. Food service.
Coffee joke. So I'll open the mic to you for
a SEC. Is there any other plugs?
Any other shout outs you want togive any?
Well, tell the people how they can.
(53:49):
Yeah, easy peasy. Come back snacks on Instagram,
TikTok, and I'm personally on LinkedIn and yeah, reach out
anytime. And my incubator is called
comebackcatalyst.ca. If you or someone you know has
been incarcerated, has a criminal record and wants to
learn how to start a business. So there you go, for free do.
You have any other speaking engagements or big events that
(54:10):
you're a part of coming up? Oh.
My gosh I told my phone here butI definitely do.
They will be announced though. For sure, yeah.
Anything you want to share too? We'll get Miles to throw it up
when the episode drops. And yeah, just want to say
thanks to you guys and thanks for being our.
First, well, thanks for having us.
Father ducker duo in studio. How far is that?
You brought back a lot of this. Little therapy session.
It was. It's pretty powerful.
(54:31):
I had thankfully forgotten. A lot of thanks for bringing it
all back up. Yeah, it's going to therapy
tonight. What we?
Do here should my dad taught me so we'll sign off but thank you
guys again huge fan of what you're doing.
We'll follow along and obviouslywe're so thrilled to have you
guys. So thank you for the time.
Thank. You.
Thank you. Keep crushing it.
This shit My Dad Taught me episode is brought to you by an
amazing sponsormatthew-stephenson.ca.
He's wealth strategy, TAXT smart, estate smart, legacy
smart. Thank you Matt.
Hello. Welcome to shit My dad Taught me
We we have some great friends and guests in the studio Today.
I want to introduce everybody toEmily and John O'Brien.
(00:28):
Welcome guys. Thanks for coming today.
Well, thanks for having us. We we're going to kick it off
with a little tradition we have,which is a ChatGPT intro.
So this is Jamie and I looking like we did our job, but really
we just put some prompts into ChatGPT.
So let's see how close they got.John, I'm going to actually
start with you, if that's OK. That's fine, but.
So, and I know we're going to talk a little bit about these
(00:49):
wonderful treats we have on the table here and that's going to
be Emily's domain, but we'll start with John.
That's not John on here. No, no.
He had longer hair back then. I did that was.
So we've got and we should say too.
Let's let's start by properly introducing This is our very
first father daughter on the show.
Hey, oh, good for you guys. We're very privileged and
(01:11):
excited to be here. 2029 episodes in and it's a first for
us so we've. Finally got some shit my we've.
Actually got a real dad and daughter here to tell us what's
up. So John O'Brien, an accomplished
executive, strategic advisor, Catholic leader and Mountaineer,
but more importantly, a dad who's walked through life with
fire with his child and stood behind her every step of the
(01:32):
way. John is currently the CFO of the
Roman Catholic Diocese of Saint Catherine's and the founder of
O'Brien's Strategic Services, a consulting practice that
supports Catholic organizations across North America.
He spent over 3 decades with theDiocese of Hamilton, overseeing
everything from cemeteries to insurance, while also monitoring
new executives and often complexworld of religious governance.
(01:56):
He's a guy who knows how to reada spreadsheet, run a diocese,
climb a mountain, and maybe harvest.
Hardest of all, love unconditionally when life throws
you curveballs. Wow, you really did some
research there. I think I probably should have
read that before I started swearing every 3rd sentence.
Did we? Get it all That's OK.
(02:16):
Yeah, I think you you covered pretty well the gamut.
Let's go. And then there's one thing on
here that's kind of a fun fact because you 2 And I don't think
you know this, but you guys havesome friends in common.
Yeah, You were for many years involved with the Carpenter's
Hospice. Yes, I was.
Tell us about that. Yeah, I was asked a good a
member of Burlington Golf and Country Club and one of the, my
(02:37):
golfing friends said, who was chair at the time, said you
might be a nice fit for the Carpenter Hospice.
And I knew the work that had been done because I'd had a
couple of former employees actually go through the Hospice
and and their late end of life stage.
So I joined around 2016 or 17 and was on the board for seven
(03:00):
years or so and chaired the lastfor the last eight months and
and then that was that. So, so you were you just leaving
when I came on probably likely that you were the vice chair and
chair that left, Yes, yeah, OK, yeah, understandable.
Yeah, it was. That's awesome.
Why? Because he saw you coming.
(03:21):
No, no, the like the Hospice, Hospice has gone through like a
a ton of changes and just with things that like happen in
society, there's different, different, different governance
that's that's been. Put in place different practices
that in relation to palliative care that philosophically and
(03:44):
right I couldn't, I couldn't agree with so.
Yeah. Well, we've got, we, we have a
couple of paths across there, one of which is Jamie's on the
board currently. Yeah.
And then through our Burlington Dads organization over the
years, we've done some great volunteer cleanups projects,
just, you know, a bunch of guys showing up with tools or paint
brushes and. Yeah.
We love the work you guys do. The board at Carpenter Hospice
(04:06):
has a very high regard for Burlington dads.
Yeah, because they've been really big and strong
contributes and. When you guys left it in like
fantastic shape like that, like financially it's in it's in a
great position. It's it's been helping people on
crazy wait lists for a long time.
Like it's amazing the spot that you guys left it in for us to be
able. To do they do amazing work.
And when you look at the day in and day out experience of of
(04:30):
those nurses and those support staff and what they encounter on
a day-to-day and the accompaniment, that's the
probably the best word I could use for how they accompany
people and they're in stages of life.
It's it's absolutely remarkable.So my hat's going after them.
Same. Yeah.
And and such a essential part ofour community.
I mean, we we see the wait list and what they do to get people
(04:52):
moving through. It's incredible work they do.
So, John, thank you so much for joining us.
I got a few more questions for you as we go, but let's get back
to em. Emily O'Brien, you ready for
your ChatGPT? I'm ready.
Let's see how it did. Emily O'Brien's story is a rare,
raw example of redemption and resilience.
At age 23, she was caught smuggling cocaine and was later
(05:14):
convicted receiving a four year prison sentence.
During her time behind bars, something unexpected happened.
She noticed popcorn was one of the few treats that brought
people together in confinement. With limited spices, lemon,
pepper, dill, she began experimenting.
That simple idea grew into Comeback Snacks, which she has
officially launched after her parole in 2018 with a mission to
(05:35):
fight stigma, hire formerly incarcerated people and build
hope one bag of popcorn at a time.
Today, Emily's brand is stocked in hundreds of outlets across
Canada and the US. She employs people who have
criminal records, works to shiftpublic perception, and speaks
about never letting your past define your future.
Yeah, well, I was actually 25 when I was arrested.
(05:57):
OK, OK, let's we're going to correct ChatGPT after this, so.
Take 23 because then it's like you're 2 years younger right
now, right? Yeah, it's going to matter at
some point. Mature.
Student at that point. So where do you want to start
with that story? So I and I'll I'll say to the
not ChatGPT, but the personal side of this is is you and I got
to meet each other doing some incredible work together.
(06:19):
You were keynoting a youth retreat, let's call it, and
shout out to Shannon and her team at Dare to Be Youth.
You gave a really inspirational kind of fireside chat to those
kiddos. I want to start there, so tell
me in your own words about your story.
Well, I was 25 years old and I found myself, you know, in the
(06:41):
most unlikely of places. And that was going to be federal
prison. And of course, you know, when
you wake up and you have a greatfamily and a great upbringing,
you never expect your life to kind of veer off in that
direction. But obviously there are things
in my life that I could control and things in my life that I
couldn't control. Number one, I could control is
my issues with substances #2 I could not control the fact that
I was in AI. Don't want to say full blown
(07:01):
relationship, but I was close tosomeone who ended up not having
the best intentions for me and brought me on this trip and that
I could not control. I didn't organize this whole
scheme, but like I knew that there were things in my life
that I could have done differently regarding my
substance use and abuse. So that landed me with four year
prison term and I, you know, I pled guilty and I knew that it
was going to be something reallygood.
(07:22):
And you know, shit, my dad, shit, my dad taught me lesson
number one was that there has tobe something good that comes out
of this. And that's just the way that I
was raised. And so now we're 2025 and we're
in eleven No 1300 stores and I've employed about 12 to 13
people that have come out of correctional facilities over the
years. And I'd also launched A
(07:43):
incubator earlier this year for people coming out of
incarceration. And I have had 130 students that
are all going to launch their own company.
That's so cool, yeah. That's great.
So let's go, let's rewind the tapes even more because again,
I'm fascinated because it's it'sour first father daughter.
Tell us how the deal went bad I'll.
Never know. So I want to go back to like day
(08:05):
one because obviously John, you've got you've got quite the
Providence yourself and you're clearly a pillar of the
community and obviously you guyshave a lot of love for each
other. Go back to like the early days.
What was it like having a daughter?
What was it like growing up? Yeah, well, Emily is a middle
child of three daughters and I had four sisters growing up.
(08:25):
My current wife has three daughters.
Even the dogs are female. So my standard line is that I've
been breathing estrogen my entire life.
But there's another story about that, which I won't go into, but
it's, it was a privilege I mean to have.
You're right. I was very involved.
(08:45):
It still am in, in the Catholic Church.
It was, it's in my DNA, essentially my third generation
working for, for the Catholic Diocese in Hamilton.
Was there for 30-4 years and raised, you know, we had Alex in
85 and Emily in 88 and Heather in 91.
(09:05):
And you know, it was, it was great.
Lived in West Hamilton, in McMaster, in Westdale and nice
little 2 1/2 story bungalow and,and it was, it was, you know,
for the most part, it was really, really good.
And you know, being a parent, itwas, you know, you go through
(09:29):
your your trials and tribulations and you know, every
child is different. Every child has their own
interests, their own, their own peculiarities or attributes, if
you want. And so the challenge of being a
parent and and kind of raising three young women, you know, it
was actually a lot of fun over those years.
(09:49):
And it was a lot of fun. It was, Yeah, Grew up playing
sport. And that's why I love, you know,
all the sport decor around here.And sports actually taught me a
lot, a lot of lessons about being in court because it's
actually the same thing as you got an offense, you got a
defense, you're in a court, and you might even fight with your
own team, AKA your legal team. You know, things didn't always
go the way as planned, but it actually, yeah, taught me a lot
(10:09):
of the lessons that I learned from playing growing up playing
competitive sport. I kind of used that and the
court case. Not just because you got put in
the penalty box. Yeah, not too.
Emily, we, she played Rep basketball.
I think all three girls at one point played Rep basketball.
But Emily was the one, you know,she was MVP, provincial champion
(10:30):
for Hamilton Transway, which waskind of the premier, you know,
young girls basketball program might still be, I'm not sure.
But no, she really took to she had a fire.
She was incredibly competitive, quick study and, you know, just
brought a lot of energy, which kind of you see before you now.
(10:51):
But yeah, so it was a lot of funwhen I'm getting to be getting
to coach was a lot of fun just because you you have a different
perspective because you have other there's other kids on the
team, they have different skill sets as well.
And it's how do you kind of moldall these kind of individual
attributes into the kind of one kind of cohesive unit that, you
(11:15):
know, to achieve like basically winning?
Yeah, he was the coach of our Red Ball team.
There you go too. So.
Go, Dad, I. Know.
Putting in the time. And then so as as life is
progressing, then so you get into this relationship that you
said right, that obviously had I'll intent to it.
What what is that take us back to that moment?
(11:36):
Like, how do we go from athlete home girl to, you know, drifting
down that path and meeting theseother people?
Like what? What did that whole journey look
like? Yeah, so I had graduated
university, I graduated with honors.
And there were situations in school that, you know, involved
alcohol that weren't the greatest.
But I, you know, didn't think I was really touchable at that
(11:57):
point, You know, because you're like all my life, I have my
whole life ahead of me. And, you know, I was had, I
always had jobs. And so I kind of just ignored
that element. And I was like, you know, I'm
passing with fine colors. Like I'm always employed.
I always volunteer. So I kind of use that as my
like, not an excuse, but anyway,you thought.
You were a bulletproof. Yeah, yeah.
You were covering your other bases, so you're a bulletproof.
(12:18):
Well, there you go. And then so part of my degree
was doing an internship because my undergrad was in
International Development. And so I worked for the Ministry
of Foreign Affairs in Indonesia,came back, worked a bunch of
marketing jobs and ended up living in Toronto and Liberty
Village. And you know, there is that's a
lifestyle where things are blendin easily with one another and
things are accepted. And so when you're going through
(12:41):
whatever it is, you can just go to a party and it seems like
everything's fine because no onereally notices, right.
And so I met this guy through mywork like I had my own company
at the time and he's allegedly sober.
So we became friends and I, because I knew that I wasn't
where I wanted to be, but I justdidn't want to really admit it
because again, when you have your own company, who's you're
not supposed to be weak. And so I was like, OK, I'm just
(13:04):
going to power, power through this and power through this,
this period of kind of like uncertainty and whatever it was.
And then I met him and he was like, yeah, you know, I've known
him for about 8 months and he asked me to go on a trip with
him and he booked the tickets three days later.
And there were some warning signs, but I just ignored them
because I didn't think they werethat big of a deal.
He like, he helped me walk my dog, like really simple things
(13:26):
that I thought were really valuable.
But then there's like other things like he kind of owed my
company money and there's a car that was involved that I bought
from him and I never got it. And then he also got me like
gifts that I never really asked for.
Like, and then one of them, likehe bought me the sound system
that my mom found out later had like cement in the in the
speakers. And he got me like a watch with
(13:48):
no battery that I never asked for.
And like dessert, like I don't drink dessert wine.
Like, I don't know why he got meall these things, but I just, I
blew it off because I was like, OK, thank you for helping me
walk my dog into these things. Anyway, so he asked me to go on
this trip. The three the three days into
the trip are the first three days are fine.
They're fine. But then he puts me and then I'm
about to go down to the pool oneday and he's like, you're not
going down to the pool today. Did you really just think so
(14:08):
It's all fun and games. I thought yes, I wasn't even
afraid at that point, like I wasn't I didn't think I was in
danger like I wasn't. So we go in the car, then we go
to this house and looks like a bed and breakfast and it's
actually a lady comes out and she's like an older lady.
It's not like rabid dogs, it's not guns.
It's like I wasn't hurt that she's just like, thank you so
(14:29):
much for doing this. And I guess he owed a bunch of
money to them. So anyway, by the end of the
week, I was strapped up with twokilograms of drugs.
So put on my body. He had it too and then put on
the airplane. And I told him I didn't want to
do it. I told him I just wanted to go
home. Like he had my passport.
He when he put my passport in the safe, he had taken it at
some point so I couldn't get it back.
And yeah, so on the Friday, I was like, I'm a terrible liar.
(14:53):
And I actually tell us almost asa joke now, because like, I took
acting like I did musical theatre when I was young.
And then as I've tried to do more musical theatre, I realized
I was a terrible actress. I was so bad.
Like I was in James and the Giant Peach and my role was an
extra with no lines. So it's like I was like, I just,
I honestly just wanted to go home and I, I knew that I wasn't
(15:13):
like a gangster and I just wanted to go home and I didn't
know what the repercussions werebecause I didn't plan this.
I wasn't like, oh, the Criminal Code does, right?
So ignorance was not bliss, but I just wanted to go home.
And then once they called us into secondary, I was like,
honestly just like done protecting him.
But I couldn't also deliberatelysabotage this operation because
they weren't my narcotics. I was like, oh, help me then it
(15:34):
was my fault for losing like hundreds of thousands of dollars
of drugs, which is what he told me.
Then I would be in like a lot oftrouble.
So I just when we got called in secondary, they asked me a
series of questions and they looked me straight in the eye.
I looked him straight in the eyewhen he asked me if I had
anything on me because they weregoing to do a physical search.
And I looked him straight in theeye and I said yes.
And I was, I chose to be completely like sober that day.
(15:56):
I was like, I don't want the alcohol to try and mask what's
happening so my body language can be the loudest language in
the room. And I knew at that point, just
lying to a federal agent was, you know, I telling the officer
the truth was like the best feeling ever, even though I
didn't really know where it was going to lead.
Did you tell the officer like the full truth, like, hey, like
I'm being forced to do this or no, you just.
(16:16):
Took, I said I wanted to get away from him and I was, I think
I was still in a bit of shock, but I was, it just felt good to
say like, yes, I have these on me because I knew that I had to
tell the truth. And 2 1/2 years of house arrest
later, the worst period I would say because you're in a lot of
mental anguish, you're not allowed to talk about the case.
You've never been in this situation before.
(16:37):
You're I was very angry. I was still in denial.
I wanted revenge And I like it was actually being at home and
looking at old photos of like your life and where you were
before and like how happy you were.
That's when you know that you'reactually a good person.
So like looking back on the pastisn't necessarily a bad thing.
And that's when I was like, I just, I couldn't live in that
mental anguish anymore. And for my family as as well,
(16:59):
you know, I put them through a lot of was very challenging, but
I knew that I, I owed it to themas well, my sisters and, and
myself to know use my rebelliousness for something
good. I got me into trouble in, in the
past, but I knew that I could use those, that same skill set
of fighting for something to do something good.
And the first step of that was taking accountability.
(17:19):
And I don't want to say surrendering, but just
realizing, you know, this is what is going to happen and it's
going to be good for you. And so I I saw it as an
investment because, you know, the legal fees were
extraordinary and I was like, OK, if I'm going to, you know,
drain my finances and, you know,family, like luckily help me
out, but I was like, OK, if I'm going to, if we're going to
(17:40):
spend this amount on anything, it's going to be an investment
in my sobriety and my education.And I'm going to see it as a
sabbatical. So that's kind of how I reframed
prison as. And once I kind of took that
step in reframing it, I think that was when I was like, I was
ready. I was ready for the challenge.
And I don't know what I was going to build because I've
never been to prison before, butand it was gonna be something
different and good. What?
(18:02):
What made it so expensive? Like if you're gonna plead
guilty to like a federal charge,Hmm.
What made the court case like solong and so expensive?
Was it? I think it was a 407 fees from
Hamilton toll fees. Not not cheap this, but.
Probably this commercial broughtto you by because the.
Sentencing, they probably, they probably wanted a heavier
sentencing and that's what you're trying.
To find, you know, what I have to say, even though Emily and I
(18:23):
had some very hard conversations, you know, in that
Phase I, I look, I knew what thelawyer I wanted to go to.
When you're in Hamilton for 30 years, you get to know who's the
best of the best in certain fields.
And we're really fortunate to get the legal counsel we did.
And we had, you know, Emily and I had some hard conversations
and she wanted to fight it. And, and, and, you know, I'd
(18:46):
already had a lot of sidebar conversations around what this
could look like in terms of a legal strategy.
And it was to me, it was very clear cut from the from the
outset, we're pleading guilty because you are.
And we need to move beyond this.And the longer this gets played
(19:08):
out, the longer this gets foughtbecause which I don't know if
you recall him, but the the factyou got a four year sentence was
it's. Crazy low.
Crazy low because the minimum sentencing guidelines were
seven. I don't know what conversations
took place, but I you know, I knew there were, you know,
(19:29):
between various legal counsels, between back and forth, there
was a lot of negotiations that went on.
And when when he came back and said, I think we've got 4I
nearly fell off my chair And it was like, and, and it was like,
OK, this is the direction we need to go in.
And, and there really wasn't. I didn't give Emily the you
(19:53):
know, that was her life as. Heavy as that sounds like that's
really, really light for that. For that, for that offense, it
was it's. Yeah, it's a blessing.
Yeah, that's a great word for it, actually.
It was. It was a blessing because and my
boss at the time, he's now the retired Bishop of Hamilton,
showed up in court for Emily sentencing that day.
(20:16):
And her mother's there. And, you know, there was just
good family. My parents were there who were
alive at the time. And, you know, it was just, I
think when she saw the judge sawthat it was confirmation of all
the discussions they had heard up until that point in time.
And and then it was that was thelast time we saw her.
(20:36):
Like they took her away right, right there in handcuffs.
And you never want to see that involving your child.
Yeah. I told, I told them I was just
going to camp. That's going to be OK because I
like when I was on charges, I still did some volunteering and
I end up meeting this woman because my social media company
(20:57):
every month we'd work with like an organization and do the
social media for free. And I just chose the John Howard
Society. And then through this, through
the John Howard Society, they had a company called Crank
Coffee. I'm not Crank coffee.
My my friends on that one. It's like another coffee
company. Nice plug, nice plug.
Great company. I forget what it's called.
(21:17):
Well, oh, clink, clink coffee. And it was run by, like, all the
formerly incarcerated. And so I actually met this woman
who had been to the present for the same sentence as me.
And she ended up helping like, my mom and dad and just give me
some very real guidelines for what I was about to experience.
So that was also really helpful.So I was definitely nervous and
(21:37):
afraid, but not as afraid as I was if I hadn't had met her.
Basically, Yeah. And what's, what's the
communication channel like? Like So you're, you're in with
that officer, you're clearly admitting to fault.
What's the first time you talk to dad after that?
What does that look like? I think it was when I was like
that. I have my bail hearing, I think
(21:58):
at the court on the Monday. Yeah, well, we knew when we find
out she was arrested and and I just had a sick sense, they kind
of had an idea what it might be about just because up until like
Emily had to me in terms of a parent fallen off a Cliff in in
Toronto and it was living a lifethat was not, it was not going
(22:20):
to be beneficial for her anyway.So when I just had a sense, sick
sense, not a 6th sentence of where things were going.
And, and that was the first and we knew she's going to be,
excuse me, into the provincial holding cell in, in Milton,
which is a horrific place. And fortunately she was there a
(22:45):
very brief time and we went to see her for the first time after
she was arrested. We saw her there.
And and then we, I don't know how long you ended up in, in
that location before because we had, yeah, the timings, a little
blur, a little bit of a blur now. 10 years. 2015 when I was
(23:06):
arrested. Yeah, a decade.
But yeah, anyway, that facility there was an eye opener for all
the wrong reasons. You have an idea of kind of what
incarceration looks like or whatprison looks like and but when
you're inside it for the first time, and that was my first
exposure to kind of being insidea provincial corrections
(23:28):
facility. And it is just it to me, it's
nightmarish. And and you, you wonder how
people can come out better from that experience, regardless of
what you're being charged with. But you're not.
We just just had to stay the course, you know, that's we
(23:51):
sought out like into the best legal advice we could.
And we just kind of began this journey of, you know, hearings
and house arrest and, you know, all these kind of restrictions,
which were, you know, obviously part of the process.
And of necessity, I would argue at the time because it did put
(24:12):
some limits kind of around, you know, Emily had been living a
pretty free and pretty pretty free lifestyle up until that
point. And this was actually the first
kind of steps to, OK, just kind of pulling things in.
You couldn't, you couldn't. You had certain restrictions.
(24:33):
And I remember, I laugh at it now, but at one point she was on
parole and. Parole or bail?
No, this was parole, I think. Remember we went to this
village. I'm I took we, we went to a
movie. We, we went to Hess village.
(24:55):
I went to a movie and as a family and then, you know, all
those go to this place and this well, I didn't realize that one
one of one of her conditions wasno bars, nothing.
And once the the bail of the officer, Oh, did I get raked
over the clothes by her? I said, I like I own this.
This is on B this. I just thought, you know, we
(25:16):
could go out and kind of celebrate the evening together.
Clearly chose the wrong venue. It was an escorted temporary
absence, which is like when I'm still in prison but I get to go
for. The week, that's what it was,
yeah. So do you do you look back on it
like as a as a man of faith and in a way, because some people
wouldn't understand this, but like seeing the path that she
(25:38):
was going down, look back and almost see what happened as a
blessing because like that couldhave that path could have went
so many other ways. And as hard as that was to go
through like. Without question.
Without question, your daughter it did that getting.
You know you're talking about divine intervention of your
personal faith. Her getting pulled aside for a
(26:00):
secondary inspector to me probably saved your life.
Yeah, I don't doubt that becauseI.
Imagine you guys. I don't know where my life would
be. Like that road wouldn't have
ended like you. Would have no, because it was
getting really sketchy, even even, you know, just from what I
was hearing through through my wife at the time.
And it was just very, yeah, very, very concerning because
(26:23):
because of her associates and the people that should she was
just kind of sinking into this nether world, if you want to
call it that, of that there. And once you're in you're you
know, there's really a few options for.
But I think the two big words that I think were kind of
throughout all of that, one being forgiveness, 2 being
(26:45):
redemption. And you mentioned that in your
little intro. So I was actually happy to hear
that. But that's what it's all about.
And if you're a parent, there's a tendency and and you know, not
every kid is open to it. Every kid has their own
personality, their own interests, their own fire.
You want to call it that. Fortunately, Emily was, you
(27:09):
know, was able to have that had that self reflective piece that
as stubborn as she wasn't fighting it because it was it
meant a total wholesale change and it and it took her a while
to kind of kind of process all of that.
But if you can kind of support them with this notion that every
(27:31):
person, if they're one, is open to for forgiveness and
redemption, and that if you can kind of get to that place, then
you can that maintains the lifeline in terms of
relationship with that child. And that's what keeps it kind of
as tight as that thing might getpulled and as hard as it might
(27:54):
be to kind of hold on sometimes,if you can keep it there and
eventually the tension eases andthe person comes back and that's
what you hope for is apparent. I'm so glad you guys did and I'm
fascinated by use your words, you know, Ms. falling off a
Cliff and then you get this call.
(28:16):
What's the conversations and andrelationship like during the
Cliff fall and then when you getthat call?
They were sporadic, to be honest, because we'd seen a
little bit of MLA has always hadthis real independent streak.
And we started to see it in highschool.
(28:38):
Yeah. I remember driving around
Ancaster at 2:00 in the morning one weekend trying to find out
what party she was at. And but then this was a kid that
would disappear on a Friday night.
And then. But she knew she had to read at
Mass on Sunday at 5 and show youshow up 4:45 here ready to go.
And we hadn't seen her all weekend.
And we're pulling her hair out, trying to find out where she
(28:59):
was. And it was.
So that's what kind of I. Assume just rehearsing for mass.
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think so.
But, you know, so we had, we sawthis streak or, you know, kind
of develop over those years. But you know, when you get to
that point in time, that's when they actually the relationship
(29:20):
strengthened, you know, because you knew you weren't going to
let her go. That was never an option.
So what? So, OK, what does this look like
now? You got a kid that's kind of in
the in the to a certain extent, fighting kind of maintain the
freedom that she had built, evenif it was the wrong kind of
(29:42):
freedom. And you want to bring her back
and point her in a different direction.
But you just you just have to bethere.
And yeah, and as much as it leads to tension and other
relationships, and you know, it's it's hard.
It's hard on everyone because all of a sudden you've got three
(30:03):
daughters and now you're kind offocused on one.
And because that's where the need is and you just do.
He's like, you got a good dad on.
Your I know he's the best. He's a.
Real 1. So I forced him to do this.
I was like, we will need to knowmore about you.
Yeah. You know, it's fascinating
stuff. And then so now go to present
(30:26):
day because you guys, I mean, the first time I met him, you
probably talked about your dad within 3 minutes of of meeting.
So obviously there's been another chapter of that
relationship, which is today. What's what's that like for you
and what's it like having a dad like that?
Oh, it's the best. I love him so.
And I realized all the things that I did when I was younger,
like even like reading in church, I use all those skills
(30:48):
now. You know, I learned how to speak
in front of people and talk to people of all different ages.
Like even though it's maybe I don't know, a teenager and I was
talking to, I was reading words I didn't even understand half
the time, but I was still doing those things.
So all those skills are instilled at me at a very young
age. And even I'm working at the
cemetery with people who didn't speak English, you know, it was
like, I got to learn so many great skills from, from a
(31:12):
relationship. So it's it's awesome.
Yeah. And what's your answer to that,
John? Yeah, you know, we're obviously
Emily's the one that, you know, with three daughters and we've
got one or two grand, one has two good two daughters and other
one's got a got a career focus as well.
And but Emily, you're not what Ireally appreciate from Emily.
(31:33):
I get these random texts like just out of the blue because I'm
to be honest, I'm not the best community.
Like I'm, I'm not the first one.Like, oh, I need to like I hear
some other dads. Well, I talk to my I talk to my
daughter every week and we have this conversation.
I don't for whatever reason, that skill set I have to still
develop, still working on the work in progress.
(31:53):
But Emily is the one who has great spontaneous kind of all of
a sudden there's something how you doing today or what's you
want to go this So the contact you know Emily, I will be on it.
Emily does a better job of contacting reaching out to me.
So that's very gratifying and it's kind of this is nice.
(32:15):
This is good. Yeah, so cool.
And then just do the sibling thing real quick because I think
that's fascinating too, because like, when a family goes
throughout, the whole family goes through it, right?
Yeah. What are things like with your
sisters now? What were their reactions?
Really, really good. I mean, the hardest thing I
think this year and how kind of your charges can your history or
(32:36):
whatever can still impact you a decade later?
Like when I was arrested, my younger sister wouldn't talk to
me for months. And so I was like, OK, I really.
And like, I loved her. I was very close with her.
And so that was like, not like, I was like, I need to restore
this. And obviously we're great now.
She's obviously very hurt, embarrassed, and, you know, I
was mortified and, and I wanted to make things right with her.
(32:59):
And so now we're super close. But this year she was, she was
getting married in London and they just changed the rules to
go like, so you can't go to London if you have like a record
now. They just changed it this year.
So I had to tell my sister, London, England.
I had to tell and I'm supposed to be a bridesmaid.
And this is the wedding was planned for two years.
And so I had to tell my sister, I can't come to your wedding now
(33:20):
because my charges from 10 yearsago.
So it's like these things can still persist.
And she was actually great with it.
And the entrepreneur in me was like, all right, I'll meet you
in France. I can go there.
So I met her in France after, but it was still very, very
challenging because I know that was, you know, the most
important day for life. And it's like I still felt like
it was my fault and it was my fault and.
(33:41):
But she was obviously great. But yeah, I'm very close with,
definitely close with my youngersister.
Love my love, my nieces, love myolder sister.
Yeah. We go to, we do family stuff way
more than we used to, which is which is nice.
So yeah. There you go.
And then shift to, you know, theentrepreneurial pursuit because
I definitely want to talk about comeback snacks.
(34:01):
So how I know in my intro, I covered it a little bit, but
like, so your world's falling apart.
You're like, I'm gonna make somepopcorn.
Like how did that, how did that come about?
South part of I want to say my substance use is actually
initiated by like a eating disorder.
And I knew that going to so I had like concord conquering
disorders for about like I don'twant to say maybe 10 years even.
(34:24):
So I went to prison. I was like, I'm not going to
fall into this again. This is not going to beat me.
And so making popcorn in prison was like my favorite thing to do
because, you know, there's high tension, there's limited
exercise, and things can go awryvery quickly.
And so I start making popcorn. Then people chime in and like
contribute like their little recipes, like when they were in
like Macs or whatever. And we'd use just random things
(34:45):
that we had. So I was in medium security, so
we had access to like a little kitchen that was like like
provided by the prison where youcould sort of like a kitchen,
like a store. And so you had like a budget.
You could get like 30-6 dollars of groceries a week.
And then you could also buy stuff off the canteen with your
own money. You want popcorn?
Yeah. And I bought kernels off the
canteen. And then I'd use stuff that I
could get on the prison store to, like, make things.
(35:08):
And then people chime in and we talked about jobs and employment
and what I, what I realized in prison was that everyone in
there, like, really wanted redemption.
Not everyone, but like the people that I talked to.
Like you realize that something wrong is going on in their life
prior to that. Like there's a lot of most
people don't wake up and want todo something wrong and and harm
other people or whatever it is. And but it's so hard to get
(35:30):
another chance. Even though you've done your
time, It's like you're still condemned by society.
And that doesn't just hurt like society because it puts people
at risk if people can get a job,but also like, you know, the
economy, like there's businesseslike, and with comeback snacks,
I was like, maybe I can hire people and prove that we are
worthy of second chances and prove all these myths wrong
because I wanted a challenge. And once I get a new challenge
that I can focus on, it's like Idon't let go.
(35:52):
I'm like a pit bull. So I was like, OK, I'm going to
prove this. And I know it's going to be
hard. I'm going to get a lot of
naysayers, but like, not tellingthe truth as to what happened to
me. Like that would make it the
whole thing worthless, right? And I also knew that no one's
going to cancel me in the future.
So. So we do live in that world too.
So might as well just come out and say it.
Yeah. And just just own it.
(36:14):
And doing that was the best thing that I ever did.
And despite the challenges, but the those those naysayers have
gone gone quiet. So because everyone wants to say
something in the beginning, but I kind of just use that as I
don't want to say like haters for my motivators, but it fueled
the fire, the fire that. And it's like kind of just like
a OK, watch me, like I'll, I'll do it.
(36:35):
And it's been the best. Did you start getting the
business stuff going while you were in jail or?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So my current business partner,
he came on as like a volunteer in the beginning.
And I'd write these blog articles.
He'd put. We had this, like, landing page
that we put up. And I also read 82 books and I
wrote letters to all the authors.
And I'm telling you, marketing hack, if you want someone to
open something, send them a letter from prison because
(36:56):
you'll get a hold of them right away.
You know, e-mail has what, a 5% open rate?
Letters from prison 100%. Yeah, So that's how I began to
build this network of authors and like, mentors.
Dave Chilton's. I wrote an article called The
Relatively Wealthy Inmate, and Ibased it off the Dave Chilton's
book, The Wealthy Barber, and I mailed it to his office, and
(37:16):
he's been incredibly helpful ever since.
So it's just doing like things like that.
And people would send me in foodtrends.
And then we designed the logo while we were still inside.
We'd sketch designs back and forth and snail mail.
What else do we do? So yeah, by the time I got out
and the prison actually let me out for a day because they heard
what was going on, they let me out for an afternoon.
I had like a security guard withme to go give out free samples
(37:38):
of popcorn at this event and I had to go back to the prison.
There's another awesome marketing.
Hack but. With your own security detail.
Yeah, everybody's going. On who is this?
It must be important, yeah. Well, well, in a manner of
speaking. And then what else?
And then I got so when I got out.
So kind of like building all thefun stuff inside snail mail
like, and that's what people think people think like because
(38:00):
you're confined, you really havenothing.
But when you're confinement is just like a thought, it's not
actually true. Like in there I realized I had
like more resources than I ever thought.
Like I joined the music program and I wrote 2 songs, Rope
recorded, produced 2 songs that were then played on CBC, right?
So it's just, you can do so muchif you just open up your mind to
it. And I made friends with all the
(38:21):
volunteers that would come in who I now work with.
There's a program called Stride that would come in and they'd
give you cards and you can mail them out to your family.
And so now what I do is I send them come back snacks to bring
into the prisons to give out. So it's cool.
That's wicked, yeah. Yeah, that we see, we see that
in different facets too. And we obviously we we talked to
(38:41):
a lot of young men on this show and guys were just trying to
figure out how to get an idea off the ground.
But the common theme that we always hear is, you know, why
don't you just do it? Like do it with the resources
you have, do it now because there isn't a better time.
And then just just start going. Make the mistakes and figure it
out. For sure, yeah like we always
like, I mean, shout out to Finding Nemo, that Dory quote
(39:03):
about the just keep swimming. Like that's the one where every
time I'm like, no, you're probably, if you just keep
swimming, yeah, it's probably out there for you.
And then so you get out and thenis that when you started to get
the real traction? Cuz I know you're in over 100
locations now and things are. 1000, yeah, Business 100
etcetera or? Something is that what it was?
Yeah, business is shopping rightnow.
(39:24):
So how did that? Is.
That. Is that your job joke?
Is brought to you by so like comeback snacks.
That's it. So how did that go?
So you get out, you just you hitthe ground running.
So I had to actually get a job with a paycheck because that's
one of the conditions. Like they don't just want, you
know, people have been imprisoned as hop and some
entrepreneurial venture given you know, that most of them are
(39:46):
in there for an illegal entrepreneurial venture.
Especially if it's just a kernelof an idea, I mean.
Yeah, So what I did was like, OK, what other places are
synonymous with rebirth or second chance?
I was like the gym and I was like, I've always been very
active. So I took the I made what I call
the prison resume and had all the jobs that I had while I was
in prison. So I was like gardener McCann
(40:06):
and I did all these jobs in prison because I went to learn
how to drywall. I learned all these things.
And so I took that to the gym and I had my inmate number on
it. And I was like, I to be honest,
I just got out of prison and I'mlooking for a second chance.
And I've always loved fitness and but this is my real story.
And they gave me the job on the spot.
And so while I worked at this gym near the halfway house, I,
they also let me do like little events at the gym when they had
(40:27):
open houses and give out the popcorn.
And I shared the story with the media.
And I'm glad that I so the halfway house was actually in
Hamilton, which is where, you know, I was born and raised.
And so people could relate to me, the Emily that they knew not
like the Toronto Emily, like, you know, that person was I
don't even know whatever a phase.
And so I worked with this reporter from the Hamilton
Spectator who actually went to high school with and she made
(40:49):
sure that the story was told like on my terms and not like on
these like, oh, bad criminal terms.
So it was 8 pages long and it was one of the most read
articles of the entire year. So it was told like from the
very beginning how this happens and what's happening now.
And then that got picked up in the Toronto Star.
And then I did like Vice and CTVMorning Show.
And so just kind of went went from there.
(41:11):
And within the first six months,we had our first hire as another
person that had been incarcerated.
So just, and I always call it a community built business because
I couldn't have done it alone. Like there's people that donated
product, that donated packaging that like let us use their space
for free. And everyone just wanted to
help. And so that's why I say like,
definitely community, community built and continues to be.
Yeah, and people do when you go back to that authenticity piece,
(41:33):
you know, like if you lead with that, if you if you tell your
story upfront, it's amazing how many people will, you know, show
support, show empathy. We say the same thing too, when
people are always asking about like, how did you get those
mentors? Like your example is great about
sending letters to authors and like, how do you ever make those
connections? And the honest answer is like,
if you just go for it, if you just find somebody you want to
(41:55):
learn from or you're inspired bya book they wrote or a talk they
gave, like just reach out authentically.
And and it's like most people are OK to help and, and most
people want to see other people do well if they understand and
who that person is. And that's that authenticity
piece too, right. So I had a few questions about
that. I just kind of want to hear your
(42:16):
perspective on. And one of them was if you could
rewind the tapes and talk to 25 year old Emily just before this
happened, What do you? Say to this.
Question. I know I got to know.
What would I say? I said, buckle up, it's going to
be a rough ride. I know that people asked me if I
would have changed anything. And I said the one thing I would
change was like my family were innocent victims.
(42:37):
But I honestly think I had to gothrough this every like I had
to, right. And I think I still call it the
easy way out. Absolutely.
Because there's a lot of people that are incarcerated.
They don't, they don't have the family support, you know, and
they suffer tremendous abuse in their lives and there's
substance abuse all throughout the family and their family is
convincing them to commit crimes.
And I, my family is the opposite.
(42:58):
So that's what I'm eternally grateful for.
And so I'm, I'm honestly very, you know, appreciative of, of
them. And but yeah, that that's what I
would change is they didn't deserve any of that.
It's crazy when to say like you were super lucky to get caught
your first time, right? Because like, the worst thing
would have been you get through and then you're stuck in that
cycle for a while. And like, it could have gotten
(43:19):
so much worse. Yeah.
Like you're super lucky to get caught the first time.
Yeah, it was. It was a downward spiral,
without question. Yeah.
And unfortunately, it's just as things were, you know, falling
out and falling out the Cliff for the precipice.
You know, she was God and that was again a blessing.
And to own. One wonder.
Yeah. And to say, hey, that was the
path that it was like, I wouldn't change a thing because
(43:41):
like I owned it, I learned from it.
And I'm, I'm, I'm here. I'm crushing it, right?
There's a there's a great image and I picked this up.
It's not mine, but it's really apartment.
If you're driving a car, you know the front windshield is 1
size. The rearview mirror is another,
and if you focus too much on therear view mirror, you do have to
just to check occasionally, but if you focus too much on the
(44:02):
rear view mirror, you end up in the ditch.
But the windshield, the front windshield is of a size because
it gives you much wider and a broader perspective.
And that for whatever in that imagery, that metaphor, if you
want to call it that, really sticks or really has meaning for
me. Because it just means, yes,
everyone has a past and there's going to be incidents and
(44:25):
episodes that you look back and with regret or with maybe
sadness or whatever it is. But if you're focused on the
future and focused on what can be and not what was, then you
opened up a whole world of possibilities.
Yeah, Shadow Jelly Roll. That's Jelly Rolls quote, is
that I? Met him, I gave him AI, gave him
(44:47):
a bag of my peanut butter and Jelly popcorn.
OK. That's where it was.
Good. Thank you for that.
There's a reason that the windshield is bigger than the
rear Vermeer. It's because everything in your
future you're looking forward ismore important than the things
in the in the in behind you. Yeah, I also think now I have
like the tool kit to deal with more things, like now they've
been through prison and like nowI have like the yeah, the
comeback blueprint basically. So because it's not going to be
(45:09):
the last time something happens or you know, whatever, like
you're going to lose people in your life, things are going to
go wrong in business, wherever, and you know, you're going to
feel the pain from that, but youjust can't necessarily turn to
what I call Botox for the soul, so.
How do you go through choosing who you want to bring on board
to be on your team like you? You're hiring.
(45:30):
Well, the finance, the finance department chooses if we can
hire people in the first place. Don't think that's what he was
asked. There's.
Probably a lot of people that like wanna wanna ride your
coattails and be on your team because like, you know, you, you
got a great message. So there's probably people
coming out of incarceration thatwanna be on your team.
And how do you How do you decidewho you pick and how you go?
Yeah. So it depends.
(45:52):
I would say if the way they reach out to me, if they call me
and then because some people will ask certain things and then
I'll never hear from them again.Yeah, a lot of the times there's
people at events there. I was doing a, a trade show a
couple weeks ago and there's this company that came up.
They're like, oh, we, we actually promoted your, your
popcorn at Metro and they waited, They came back to my
booth 2 times because I was walking around doing other
(46:13):
things. They're like, it's only here,
It's only here. And they're like, can we please,
can we please do more sampling and more promo for.
So they stuck it out twice when I was there and then I finally
met them and I was like, absolutely.
So they worked for like another organization I think that hired
them to sample our products. So we had never actually met
them because we sometimes work with third party providers and
I'm just like, yeah, I'll like work with you direct now too.
So it's great just taking like unique and direct approaches.
(46:36):
Yeah, people putting the time in.
Yeah, the effort. That's awesome.
Yeah, one word for your journey so far.
How would you summarize it? What's one word for?
Your kamikaze. OK, no, that's.
No, I would say one word. Have you learned anything?
(46:57):
Tasmanian Devil. There you go, whirling Dervish.
That's 2 words. I want to say like fulfilling,
but like, cuz you look, you actually take all the lessons
that you've learned and put theminto your future.
Yeah, that makes sense. Is that a good word?
Fulfilling. Yeah.
OK. I'm not.
I'm not the vocabulary coach. I'd say blessed in a lot of
(47:19):
ways. Grateful.
Family, yeah. Grateful, grateful.
I think that's a great. One, that's a good.
Final answer, grateful. Yeah, that's a great one.
Yeah, the and with Dad here too.Let's put you both on the spot.
I'm going to ask, what's some ofthe best advice you ever got
from your dad at any period in life?
(47:40):
So this is something that he might not remember, but we were
in like Jumbo video when it still existed.
And I wanted to watch a movie that was 14 A and I was not 14.
And I was like, will you please?And he's like, Emily, just never
wish your life away. That's why this resonated with
me. Wow.
There you go. Never wish for the future
(48:00):
because it's going to come too quick.
So never. Didn't Jumbo video used to have
the free popcorn? When you walked around.
Too. Yeah, there's a theme here.
Oh my gosh, you're right. There's a theme that's.
Where it all started? You know, and those little those
the little yellow circle and I said, 14.
I really want to, but can I was like, I can't wait till I'm 14
or something. But don't wish your life away.
(48:20):
Yeah. And what's the what's the wisdom
you'd want to impart if you had a microphone in front of you and
a bunch of dads and other kids listening?
What's What's the wisdom? Pay attention to your child.
You know, we've, we're so busy in life and if you've got, you
know, other kids, you've got a spouse, you've got a family,
you've got a job, you've got allof these distractions.
(48:43):
And at the end of the day, asidefrom your family, those are the
things are distractions. They might have elements of
necessity about them. You need to put food on the
table. You need, you know, money in
your bank account to a certain extent, but pay attention to
your kids because you need to the world today is, is not the
world I grew up in. I grew up in a, you know, by
(49:05):
comparison, a really safe world.And I see the stuff on social
media today and see how kids are, you know, you see the
mental health challenges in young people today and they're,
it's an epidemic. So the best advice I could give
into a a room full of dads wouldbe pay attention to your kids,
get involved with their lives, set boundaries that you know,
(49:30):
are are good and logical and reasonable and, and stay with
them for the journey. Yeah.
Every child wants to be independent.
Every child wants to kind of gets to a point where they want
to start to live their own life.And they think they are at a
stage where they can do that. And oftentimes it's just a
(49:51):
little bit early in the game to do that.
And that's where they can get into trouble.
So it's kind of walking alongside to the extent that
that child will let you. But I think as long as you stay
interested and and you just evenat a point in time where a child
may not want the relationship with you, do what you can to
(50:13):
maintain that relationship to that child.
Yeah, and then now we'll talk about your baby comeback snacks
aspirationally or what's? What's on the calendar?
Where are you guys headed? Got any goals?
Got any big things we can look out for?
Yeah, for sure. So we're, you saw that kind of
half of it. The new packaging.
Packaging might seem so simple, but it there's so much work that
(50:36):
goes into package. I'm telling you, this has been
two years and in the making. So we're very excited.
We're going to launch all four, all four flavors.
We're also, we're going to be launching 2 new sizes for
category expansion. So instead of like trying to
expand all the US and just grocery, which is like what a
lot of CPG companies do and thencrash and burn because it's like
(50:56):
the costs are just exorbitant, exorbitant.
Exorbitant. Exorbitant.
Let's just edit that out. The costs are high.
The costs are very high. And I've seen so many companies
just crash and burn. Plus it's so like crazy down
there anyway. I've had friends that don't have
a record that are getting, you know, having issues at the
border. So I wonder what happened to me.
So we're, we're finding that if we alter some of the and like
(51:18):
have different sizing options wecan fit into now gas,
convenience, food service or hotels.
We already do work in these areas.
But the feedback that we've gotten from working with our
with our vendors is like, yeah, if you do this kind of size.
So working on the sizes and thenworking on, I can't talk about
it yet publicly, but a very special collaboration for next
year that started at the actually when I was in prison in
(51:42):
2018, so. Well, we're rooting for you.
It's so fun to watch and we're ahuge fan of the product too.
Like my girls are just obsessed.And I love the slogan.
The slogan's killing. Yeah, that was another thing.
It's like, take all the words that people use against you.
It's like you're criminal and you're badass.
OK, I did something bad. I yes, but I'm not a criminal.
Every single day of my life, it's like that was one of the
things I did. I looked back and I was like,
(52:03):
OK, I'm this old, how many days are in a year?
And OK, so I did that on like what one day.
No, I've had no had ADOI 2009 sobut we don't I've made my my
mistakes, but not nearly as mistakes as days that I've
lived. I've done also done good things.
So. Popcorn's so good it's criminal.
Made with conviction, yeah. Made with conviction.
(52:23):
We have a segment on the show called Tell Us a Dad Joke.
I wonder if I could ask you guysto tell us a dad joke.
Whoever wants to go first. OK, well I just, you know, I was
a director of cemeteries for a very, very long time and I had a
very important job because I hadlike 75,000 people under me.
(52:44):
That joke's for the dying crowd.But just understand this, I will
be the last to let you down. OK.
At least you said no one complaints there, right?
Oh, I wouldn't go so far to say that.
It's not dead. Quiet.
It's it's not dead. No, we get all the the
complaints are from the living. Why doesn't my grave look like
(53:08):
a, you know, a golf green you get?
A lot of dirt on them or. No, they get, they think they
have a lot of dirt on me actually, and that's I've
actually had a lot of dirt in meover the year.
I haven't dug a few graves by hand so.
They complain. Do they roll over?
Yeah, it's a tough thing to dig up like that.
(53:29):
I Yeah, that's right. We can keep going.
How how much time we got, Miles?OK, you got to follow that one
up M all. Right.
Well, I just wanted to say thanks to Latte for having us
all on the show today. Food service.
Coffee joke. So I'll open the mic to you for
a SEC. Is there any other plugs?
Any other shout outs you want togive any?
Well, tell the people how they can.
(53:49):
Yeah, easy peasy. Come back snacks on Instagram,
TikTok, and I'm personally on LinkedIn and yeah, reach out
anytime. And my incubator is called
comebackcatalyst.ca. If you or someone you know has
been incarcerated, has a criminal record and wants to
learn how to start a business. So there you go, for free do.
You have any other speaking engagements or big events that
(54:10):
you're a part of coming up? Oh.
My gosh I told my phone here butI definitely do.
They will be announced though. For sure, yeah.
Anything you want to share too? We'll get Miles to throw it up
when the episode drops. And yeah, just want to say
thanks to you guys and thanks for being our.
First, well, thanks for having us.
Father ducker duo in studio. How far is that?
You brought back a lot of this. Little therapy session.
It was. It's pretty powerful.
(54:31):
I had thankfully forgotten. A lot of thanks for bringing it
all back up. Yeah, it's going to therapy
tonight. What we?
Do here should my dad taught me so we'll sign off but thank you
guys again huge fan of what you're doing.
We'll follow along and obviouslywe're so thrilled to have you
guys. So thank you for the time.
Thank. You.
Thank you. Keep crushing it.
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