Stoic Empathy: Rewriting the Rules of Success for Women

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📌 Episode Summary: In this episode of Soma Says, we sit down with Shermin Kruse, an award-winning writer, attorney, and speaker. From her early life in Tehran to becoming a leading voice in leadership, storytelling, and global change, Shermin shares insights on resilience, negotiation, and the power of empathy.

💡 Key Takeaways: ✔️ The intersection of philosophy, law, and neuropsychology ✔️ How storytelling shapes leadership and negotiation ✔️ Finding strength in adversity and balancing stoic empathy

⏳ Episode Timeline:

[00:00] – Welcome & Introduction to Shermin Kruse [03:15] – Shermin’s journey: From Tehran to global thought leader [10:40] – The power of storytelling in leadership & negotiations [18:20] – The concept of stoic empathy & its real-world impact [25:45] – Practical strategies for resilience in challenging times [33:30] – Rapid-fire questions & closing thoughts

🔗 Connect with Shermin Kruse: Website: SherminKruse.com Instagram: @sher_kruse

🔔 Follow & Subscribe: 🎧 Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe to Soma Says on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. ⭐ If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review—it helps others find the show!

📩 Have a Question for Dr. Soma? Send your questions to [e-mail], and they might be featured in a future episode!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Dr.

(00:01):
Soma.
Just a disclaimer, this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice.
Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen.
Let's go to the show.

(00:41):
Ladies and gentlemen, today we have the honor of hosting Shermin Kruse, an award-winning writer, idea curator, global change-maker, complex-system negotiator, speaker, and storyteller.
Born in Tehran during a time of significant upheaval, Shermin began writing poetry in Farsi at the tender age of 10, channeling her experiences under war and oppression.

(01:03):
Her family's immigration to Canada marked the start of an inspiring journey from young immigrant to influential global voice.
With degrees in philosophy, neuropsychology, and law, Shermin has represented Fortune 500 clients, authored the acclaimed novel "Butterfly Stitching," and produced over 60 TEDx talks.

(01:24):
Her upcoming book, "Stoic Empathy," explores balancing resilience with compassion to navigate today's complex world. 11 00:01:37,62.687 --> 00:01:42,732.687 Even if they're 1000% over entitled to it, they still feel less entitled than a man would. 12 00:01:42,732.687 --> 00:01:46,422.687 And so as a result, they don't feel like they should risk it. 13 00:01:47,867.857 --> 00:01:53,717.857 one of the things I talk about in one of my TEDx talks is an example of managing your emotions to serve yourself. 14 00:01:53,767.857 --> 00:01:57,337.857 this is a story of me and my mom on the streets of Tehran. 15 00:01:57,457.857 --> 00:01:59,167.857 I was caught without my headscarf. 16 00:01:59,167.857 --> 00:02:01,57.857 There was a morality, police car guard. 17 00:02:01,57.857 --> 00:02:02,317.857 There was a really big gun. 18 00:02:02,317.857 --> 00:02:04,537.857 There was threats, there was hostility. 19 00:02:04,807.857 --> 00:02:07,717.857 It was a challenging situation and extremely difficult. 20 00:02:07,987.857 --> 00:02:11,287.857 My mom was not interested in serving the morality police guard. 21 00:02:11,497.857 --> 00:02:13,447.857 My mom was interested in helping me. 22 00:02:14,302.857 --> 00:02:34,882.857 And so her ability to connect with that guard, to use empathy, to connect with that guard on a cognitive level while maintaining emotional distance that was in, in some ways obviously intended to I to in imper her influence in a forward fashion that assisted her and her own family. 23 00:02:36,268.027 --> 00:02:37,888.027 Welcome to my podcast. 24 00:02:37,888.027 --> 00:02:58,958.027 I do feel like I'm in the presence of a superstar, only because you are a woman, you are a mom, you are a lawyer, you are a collaborator, you are producer you are a negotiator, a consultant, and I'm sure, so I chew two thirds of Like I feel like this is a reverse compliment. 25 00:02:59,508.027 --> 00:03:06,138.027 I tend to take on a lot of roles, I think women, we don't really ask for what we deserve. 26 00:03:06,618.027 --> 00:03:07,188.027 I agree. 27 00:03:07,218.027 --> 00:03:10,68.027 And I would also say it's hard to blame the women. 28 00:03:10,98.027 --> 00:03:16,968.027 I had a friend this year ask, and very politely, very respectfully, and they withdrew the offer. 29 00:03:17,718.027 --> 00:03:18,498.027 Oh, wow. 30 00:03:18,698.027 --> 00:03:23,878.027 And that's like our nightmare, right? It's always a possibility in a negotiation. 31 00:03:23,938.027 --> 00:03:23,998.027 Yeah. 32 00:03:23,998.027 --> 00:03:28,858.027 And whether it's a marketplace or a higher level corporate negotiation, that the other person will leave. 33 00:03:29,638.027 --> 00:03:32,938.027 And you have to be willing to face that responsibility. 34 00:03:32,938.027 --> 00:03:38,488.027 And as long as you conduct yourself in a manner that you're proud of, you have to be willing to take that risk. 35 00:03:38,488.027 --> 00:03:51,698.027 But that's why women don't do it, because they're less willing to take that risk than men are, because I think as a general matter, they feel less entitled to whatever it is they're asking for. 36 00:03:51,698.027 --> 00:03:57,368.027 Even if they're 1000% over entitled to it, they still feel less entitled than a man would. 37 00:03:57,368.027 --> 00:04:01,58.027 And so as a result, they don't feel like they should risk it. 38 00:04:01,268.027 --> 00:04:09,108.027 You know what I mean? I wish I could I booked this podcast for two hours instead of one hour because I feel like I could learn so much from you. 39 00:04:09,688.027 --> 00:04:29,43.027 As a kid, I did grow up with a lot of Persians and during that time a lot of Persians came over and my exposure was actually to realize the persecution that they faced and I got to learn about that and how much they sacrificed right. 40 00:04:29,93.027 --> 00:04:29,273.027 Yeah. 41 00:04:29,303.027 --> 00:04:47,753.027 can you share with us your experience with that and how your family immigrated to Canada and how that inspired you to write the books that you do and do what you're doing now? Yeah, it's, and it's not just Iranians, right? It's people all of all over the world. 42 00:04:47,813.027 --> 00:05:02,963.027 But there is something to be said about living in, under an oppressive regime and an oppressive regime that has just undergone a revolution and an oppressive regime that has just undergone a revolution that also finds itself in the midst of a bloody war. 43 00:05:03,293.027 --> 00:05:05,243.027 So I was born in 77. 44 00:05:05,273.027 --> 00:05:11,663.027 The revolution occurred in 79, and obviously the two years leading up to the revolution were extremely volatile and bloody as well. 45 00:05:12,53.027 --> 00:05:18,953.027 And then the first 10 years following the revolution were in extremely unstable time for the regime as it was trying to strengthen its hold on the people. 46 00:05:19,193.027 --> 00:05:24,63.027 So it was also a very aggressive time to be living under that regime. 47 00:05:24,543.027 --> 00:05:27,93.027 It still is, and I certainly don't deny that. 48 00:05:27,123.027 --> 00:05:35,93.027 But it was a particularly difficult situation at that time, and the laws were far more strict in a lot of ways than they are now. 49 00:05:35,633.027 --> 00:05:39,293.027 And then there was the Iran Iraq War, which about a million people died. 50 00:05:39,323.027 --> 00:05:41,993.027 There was about 40 million people in Iran at the time. 51 00:05:41,993.027 --> 00:05:48,833.027 So that's about one out of every 40 people died and a lot of heavy rocket attacks into Tehran. 52 00:05:48,903.027 --> 00:05:52,113.027 By the time I left in 88, there was up to six missile attacks a day. 53 00:05:52,593.027 --> 00:06:05,843.027 So it wasn't just the oppressive government, it was also the breadlines and the electricity cutoffs and the rations and the lack of fruit and things like that. 54 00:06:06,363.027 --> 00:06:10,23.027 But as a general matter, I was actually just talking about this with someone today. 55 00:06:10,83.027 --> 00:06:17,853.027 I feel when I reflect on my childhood, my overwhelming sense is not suffering. 56 00:06:18,303.027 --> 00:06:25,83.027 My overwhelming memory and feeling even the smells and the touches and the sights. 57 00:06:25,83.027 --> 00:06:25,893.027 I remember. 58 00:06:26,673.027 --> 00:06:41,263.027 It is mostly this idea of being cocooned in almost a shelter that existed in my mind, but a sh a shelter that was missile proof. 59 00:06:41,923.027 --> 00:06:46,753.027 And I went through my childhood in this shelter a lot, in this mental shelter. 60 00:06:47,293.027 --> 00:06:53,113.027 And a lot of the reason, and I'm aware, it's fully clear so I can see exactly what's happening all around me. 61 00:06:53,113.027 --> 00:06:56,383.027 I can smell it, I can see it, I can touch it, I can taste it I can feel it. 62 00:06:56,433.027 --> 00:07:00,153.027 And yet, by the time mourning rolls around, my sphere is back. 63 00:07:00,303.027 --> 00:07:10,23.027 And this protective layer that I had around me was largely because of my parents and the way they were. 64 00:07:10,518.027 --> 00:07:12,978.027 Protecting me, not from the truth. 65 00:07:13,128.027 --> 00:07:14,298.027 And this is really important. 66 00:07:14,328.027 --> 00:07:18,228.027 They weren't protecting me from the truth, but they were protecting me from trauma. 67 00:07:19,8.027 --> 00:07:54,648.027 And that is when I learned really at that age, the lesson that became my life's work, which is now this new book, stoic Empathy, which is how do you utilize your empathic awareness of the people around you in order to find sufficient self-control? Not so you can hide the truth, but so that you can expose it in a manner that would be appropriate for the people around you, especially if they're more vulnerable than you For them as appropriate as exposing children to war And oppression can be right. 68 00:07:54,648.027 --> 00:08:07,908.027 Obviously these are things we don't want kids to have firsthand experience with, but if they're having the firsthand experience, how do we act as that buffer? And they did such a great job of this and I don't, I don't think they knew they were doing, you're just good at it naturally. 69 00:08:08,208.027 --> 00:08:14,608.027 And I ended up being very driven by their protection of me. 70 00:08:14,608.027 --> 00:08:20,338.027 And then we had the gift of immigration, which tons of warts on the side of the world, man. 71 00:08:20,418.027 --> 00:08:22,938.027 Boy, especially when I entered the corporate world. 72 00:08:22,968.027 --> 00:08:27,648.027 There's so much, so many external power dynamics, so much inequality. 73 00:08:28,128.027 --> 00:08:28,878.027 It doesn't compare. 74 00:08:29,148.027 --> 00:08:32,888.027 I would much rather be here than be back home. 75 00:08:32,898.027 --> 00:08:39,768.027 And it's not because of the food, which is amazing, or the people who are incredible or the archeology or the landscape. 76 00:08:39,818.027 --> 00:08:41,408.027 It's because of the regime. 77 00:08:42,203.027 --> 00:08:44,63.027 And a lot of Iranians feel this way. 78 00:08:44,663.027 --> 00:08:59,293.027 And so the reality is that I became like this driven person, driven to succeed, driven to prove my parents' sacrifice was worth it, right? Not anything they imposed on me, but something I imposed on myself. 79 00:09:00,133.027 --> 00:09:21,693.027 And it really changed the way I actually approach the world so that I became intrigued by this idea of power dynamics and how much of our power is within us, and how much of our power is not within us, right? And finding my way through that labyrinth essentially. 80 00:09:23,373.027 --> 00:09:56,833.027 How did you formulate these ideas? Was it as a child or was it when you formally entered law school where you realized that you had this ability to use, your background, your experiences as an immigrant to this country to create these ideas, and then ultimately to write the books that you've written? So partly I realized it through error, right? And through failure. 81 00:09:57,313.027 --> 00:10:00,853.027 And it was this, when we first immigrated, for example. 82 00:10:01,348.027 --> 00:10:11,38.027 I was suddenly exposed not only to a new language, but a new room, right? That I had to read a new way of existing, a new form of dress, a new way of being. 83 00:10:11,458.027 --> 00:10:14,68.027 And I did not know how to maneuver my way through it. 84 00:10:14,428.027 --> 00:10:16,378.027 And it was disastrous. 85 00:10:16,378.027 --> 00:10:22,408.027 My first two years after immigration, I was just a middle school kid, but I was eating lunch alone every day. 86 00:10:22,408.027 --> 00:10:27,388.027 And I have middle school students right now, and I can't imagine if they had to eat lunch alone every day. 87 00:10:27,388.027 --> 00:10:35,508.027 That's a kind of a trauma of its own right? That is an experience for a child that is extremely difficult, but it's because I didn't know how to maneuver my way through it. 88 00:10:35,868.027 --> 00:10:40,848.027 So I learned from my loneliness, I learned from my failure. 89 00:10:40,848.027 --> 00:10:49,848.027 And at the same time, every day I went home to a family who embraced me to a belly that was full. 90 00:10:49,878.027 --> 00:10:51,408.027 We never had a lot growing up. 91 00:10:52,293.027 --> 00:10:57,813.027 My mom made sure we never went hungry and we always had books in the house. 92 00:10:58,353.027 --> 00:11:03,303.027 And those two things together were my comfort. 93 00:11:03,603.027 --> 00:11:08,523.027 So I was one of those teenagers who looked forward to going home because home was my safe space. 94 00:11:08,613.027 --> 00:11:11,823.027 And then as I got older, I realized not everybody has that. 95 00:11:12,33.027 --> 00:11:13,923.027 Home is not their safe space. 96 00:11:14,463.027 --> 00:11:31,463.027 And so I started to imagine what it must be like for them to be in that fight, flight, or freeze response, or to be in that kind of disassociated state of loneliness when they're home with their family, when they're supposed to be in the comfort of people who love them. 97 00:11:31,703.027 --> 00:11:32,873.027 And my family, we're Persian. 98 00:11:32,873.027 --> 00:11:34,793.027 We yell, we shout, we get into fights. 99 00:11:34,793.027 --> 00:11:40,303.027 I'm not saying it's like this perfect little Eden, but we love the heck out of each other. 100 00:11:40,303.027 --> 00:11:47,773.027 And that was when I started to appreciate the impact of the gifts that my family had given me. 101 00:11:48,553.027 --> 00:11:52,303.027 And then as I got older, I began advocacy. 102 00:11:52,453.027 --> 00:11:58,33.027 So I started debating in high school, in university, I studied neuropsychology and philosophy. 103 00:11:58,33.027 --> 00:12:02,473.027 So essentially the study of human nature, the study of argument, the study of logic. 104 00:12:02,803.027 --> 00:12:04,873.027 How do you convince someone. 105 00:12:05,803.027 --> 00:12:08,443.027 To come around to your way of thinking. 106 00:12:08,743.027 --> 00:12:16,73.027 And because of the combination of the neuropsych and the philosophy, which is logic argument, I knew that logic argument wasn't enough. 107 00:12:16,983.027 --> 00:12:19,53.027 There needs to be this real human connection. 108 00:12:19,173.027 --> 00:12:24,173.027 And so I became really interested in this idea of, okay, now I'm in this world. 109 00:12:24,233.027 --> 00:12:25,703.027 I wanna prove my parents right. 110 00:12:25,703.027 --> 00:12:26,783.027 I wanna succeed. 111 00:12:26,863.027 --> 00:12:33,103.027 And I don't come with the things, I don't come with the power I had when I went to law school. 112 00:12:33,103.027 --> 00:12:34,633.027 I had never been inside a boardroom. 113 00:12:34,633.027 --> 00:12:36,103.027 I had never been inside a courtroom. 114 00:12:36,133.027 --> 00:12:38,503.027 I had never even been inside an office building. 115 00:12:39,233.027 --> 00:12:41,93.027 I had never been inside an office building. 116 00:12:41,303.027 --> 00:12:45,833.027 I'd certainly never been inside the offices of lawyers or anything like that. 117 00:12:45,833.027 --> 00:12:54,53.027 I had no familiarity or experience with it, and I recognized that and I didn't wanna fall flat on my face like I did in middle school. 118 00:12:54,173.027 --> 00:12:56,473.027 And obviously I'm a different person then. 119 00:12:56,473.027 --> 00:12:59,173.027 I have language, I have power, I have education. 120 00:12:59,563.027 --> 00:13:03,493.027 I've been in this country for a long time, but it's not that different. 121 00:13:03,688.027 --> 00:13:15,628.027 You come out, you're a female minority, you're younger than everyone else, and you don't come with any of the power connections, so you don't really have an understanding of this the way the heart of this world beats. 122 00:13:16,378.027 --> 00:13:18,898.027 And I knew that I had to understand it. 123 00:13:19,398.027 --> 00:13:21,738.027 and I also had to understand my juries. 124 00:13:21,768.027 --> 00:13:23,88.027 I had to understand my judges. 125 00:13:23,118.027 --> 00:13:29,838.027 I had to understand my opposing counsel, my client my research vendor, my document copy guy. 126 00:13:30,108.027 --> 00:13:38,808.027 I had an experience one time where early on in my career where I behaved towards a paralegal as if I was superior to them. 127 00:13:39,778.027 --> 00:13:40,858.027 Big mistake. 128 00:13:41,48.027 --> 00:13:42,818.027 Huge mistake. 129 00:13:43,328.027 --> 00:13:44,618.027 Huge fallout. 130 00:13:44,618.027 --> 00:14:00,148.027 This paralegal was not my fan for the longest period of time, and eventually I came to see not only how highly skilled she is and irreplaceable certainly can't be replaced by me, but also man, that's just bad strategy. 131 00:14:00,208.027 --> 00:14:02,728.027 That is not how you get things done. 132 00:14:03,58.027 --> 00:14:13,408.027 Of course, you need to be authoritative if you're leading a team and tell people what to do, but you need to direct them in a manner that is respectful of their role in the team. 133 00:14:13,498.027 --> 00:14:27,808.027 And since that time, I have never ever partnered with anyone who's been disrespectful to anyone based on their profession on the corporate ladder, So it's, so that was how it transformed. 134 00:14:27,808.027 --> 00:14:32,698.027 So it built on itself like everything else does, right? Brick by brick. 135 00:14:33,298.027 --> 00:14:43,553.027 I ended up practicing for 17 years and with time, with mentorship, with experience became quite adept and scaled. 136 00:14:43,653.027 --> 00:15:20,678.027 In the meantime, I'm able to reflect back, think back, how was it when I was a child? What was I learning in university? What were these stoics talking about? Is this the same thing? I began an exposure and a training in Buddhism, and then I started to compare and contrast Buddhism, Sufi, Islam, and stoicism, The Japanese Samurai warriors, and it's just seeing this compare and contrast between these various ways of being, these various philosophies, all of which focus on the ability to exercise emotive control over ourselves. 137 00:15:21,698.027 --> 00:15:45,458.027 In the meantime, I'm under intense pressure and I'm leading teams right, and I'm trying to have kids and I'm trying to write my books and again, falling down and getting up, falling down and getting up until I can get as close to nailing this kind of skillset as I can and essentially earning my freedom from the corporate world. 138 00:15:46,828.027 --> 00:15:57,8.027 Gave me a clue there as to why your and is your book out Stoic Empathy Out, or is it is it still due to be released? It's being released April 8th. 139 00:15:57,338.027 --> 00:15:58,208.027 April 8th. 140 00:15:58,328.027 --> 00:16:05,498.027 So it gave me, what you just said, gave me a little clue as to why you named your, titled your book Stoic Empathy. 141 00:16:05,888.027 --> 00:16:16,278.027 But tell us, tell the listeners about what your book is about and how do you think that your book can help women professionals? Okay. 142 00:16:16,798.027 --> 00:16:28,738.027 One of the things that always fascinated me as I was getting ahead in the corporate world was I was using my awareness of the people around me, my essential empathic awareness of the people around me in order to succeed. 143 00:16:28,858.027 --> 00:16:29,818.027 I wasn't using force. 144 00:16:29,818.027 --> 00:16:32,428.027 I wasn't yelling, shouting, screaming, slamming the table. 145 00:16:32,478.027 --> 00:16:33,528.027 Plenty of people do. 146 00:16:33,718.027 --> 00:16:36,808.027 it wouldn't have been authentic to me if I did get away with it. 147 00:16:37,108.027 --> 00:16:39,148.027 I don't think I would've been able to go to sleep at night. 148 00:16:39,398.027 --> 00:16:44,258.027 I just wouldn't have felt good about that type of power grab. 149 00:16:44,348.027 --> 00:16:55,398.027 I don't feel comfortable with that, but I feel comfortable influencing people through a servant leadership that's mutually benefiting for everyone once I understand them. 150 00:16:55,908.027 --> 00:16:58,788.027 And then, let's be honest, it's the corporate world. 151 00:16:58,818.027 --> 00:17:08,358.027 I also feel comfortable pinpointing who I don't trust and making sure that I maintain my emotional distance from those individuals while still understanding them. 152 00:17:08,928.027 --> 00:17:14,878.027 So I began to develop this idea of empathy, which is not really mine actually. 153 00:17:14,878.027 --> 00:17:19,888.027 It's the neuropsychology idea of empathy, which divides it into two sections. 154 00:17:20,338.027 --> 00:17:29,48.027 The first section is what we'll call cognitive empathy, and the second section is what we'll call emotive empathy or emotional empathy. 155 00:17:29,828.027 --> 00:17:41,198.027 Emotional empathy is what we typically associate with empathy, especially as we feminize the concept, right? Your pain in my heart, right? I am watching my favorite TV show. 156 00:17:41,198.027 --> 00:17:59,738.027 My favorite character is finally in a good and happy place, and they get in a car and a text message comes through and they look down and they swerve and they're t-boned, and I recoil even though the glass of the window isn't shattering my skin, but their pain. 157 00:18:00,263.027 --> 00:18:05,873.027 Translates into pain in me, and then of course, that's a fictional character on a screen in my television. 158 00:18:05,873.027 --> 00:18:10,913.027 Imagine if it's your child or your mother or your brother, right? That's emotional empathy. 159 00:18:11,303.027 --> 00:18:34,53.027 Your pain in my heart, this cognitive empathy is, listen, I'm not gonna walk a mile in your shoes for a variety of reasons, but I am gonna sink my steps to yours and I'm gonna see what and I'm gonna hear what you hear because I need to understand the way you experience the world around you, because I can use that not just to serve me, but to serve you. 160 00:18:34,533.027 --> 00:18:38,993.027 An example of cognitive empathy I like to use is my sister, she works in a refugee camp. 161 00:18:38,993.027 --> 00:18:43,253.027 She works for U-N-H-C-R and actually they lost 60% of their staff yesterday. 162 00:18:43,303.027 --> 00:18:51,763.027 If she were to allow the trauma that surrounds her on a daily basis to traumatize her, she would be disabled from doing her job. 163 00:18:52,483.027 --> 00:19:12,263.027 She would no longer be able to effectively serve the population, and it's her job to serve them, right? She's somebody that they have, and they don't have a lot, and then she also has to lead that team, right? So she has to manage her own emotions in order to serve this population. 164 00:19:13,43.027 --> 00:19:19,73.027 Now, one of the things I talk about in one of my TEDx talks is an example of managing your emotions to serve yourself. 165 00:19:19,123.027 --> 00:19:22,693.027 this is a story of me and my mom on the streets of Tehran. 166 00:19:22,813.027 --> 00:19:24,523.027 I was caught without my headscarf. 167 00:19:24,523.027 --> 00:19:26,413.027 There was a morality, police car guard. 168 00:19:26,413.027 --> 00:19:27,673.027 There was a really big gun. 169 00:19:27,673.027 --> 00:19:29,893.027 There was threats, there was hostility. 170 00:19:30,163.027 --> 00:19:33,73.027 It was a challenging situation and extremely difficult. 171 00:19:33,343.027 --> 00:19:36,643.027 My mom was not interested in serving the morality police guard. 172 00:19:36,853.027 --> 00:19:38,803.027 My mom was interested in helping me. 173 00:19:39,658.027 --> 00:20:00,238.027 And so her ability to connect with that guard, to use empathy, to connect with that guard on a cognitive level while maintaining emotional distance that was in, in some ways obviously intended to I to in imper her influence in a forward fashion that assisted her and her own family. 174 00:20:00,388.027 --> 00:20:13,228.027 And there's nothing wrong with that, right? She's fully entitled to use whatever defenses she has as a, essentially a powerless gunless weapon list, unarmed woman right in the streets of Iran when faced in that situation. 175 00:20:13,858.027 --> 00:20:16,68.027 And here we have this cognitive empathy. 176 00:20:16,68.027 --> 00:20:16,908.027 Emotional empathy. 177 00:20:17,238.027 --> 00:20:19,818.027 It's not really binary, right? It's actually a spectrum. 178 00:20:20,118.027 --> 00:20:58,948.027 There's a million different in-betweens, right? And what I try to teach people is how can you be intentional? How can you be strategic about the type of empathy you employ? If it's a long-term relationship, someone very close to you, somebody with whom you wanna find vulnerability, versus it's you are a surgeon in an ER, or you're in a hostile takeover situation of your corporation, right? This skill can translate into this skill that so many women have that is so often marked as weak or lesser than, or something that allows you to give something up. 179 00:20:58,948.027 --> 00:21:05,848.027 As long as you can be strategic about where you are on the spectrum, that's the missing element. 180 00:21:06,478.027 --> 00:21:26,788.027 This strategy and then the ability to actually effectuate the strategy, right? How do you maintain empathy while maintaining emotional regulation and distance to the extent that's appropriate? And maybe you're not all the way here, in fact, probably nobody ever is, unless they're a psychopath. 181 00:21:27,68.027 --> 00:21:31,878.027 but you're, maybe somewhere along here or somewhere along here, or somewhere along here very different. 182 00:21:32,118.027 --> 00:21:47,228.027 Sometimes in a conversation, you start out here and you realize, uhoh, this has happened before, and sometimes in a relationship you start out here and over time, you're able to get here, right? So this is a fluid thing. 183 00:21:47,228.027 --> 00:21:47,858.027 It's moving. 184 00:21:48,98.027 --> 00:21:52,898.027 The thing that allows you to control this spectrum is stoicism. 185 00:21:53,558.027 --> 00:21:58,468.027 It is essentially the ancient version of modern emotional regulation. 186 00:21:59,8.027 --> 00:22:00,988.027 The idea that. 187 00:22:01,378.027 --> 00:22:03,238.027 There are external power dynamics. 188 00:22:03,478.027 --> 00:22:13,18.027 They are impacting my ability to exercise my rights, and yet there is always a space between stimuli and response. 189 00:22:13,378.027 --> 00:22:14,878.027 And I am that space. 190 00:22:15,268.027 --> 00:22:30,298.027 The external power dynamics exist as do I, and my power might fluctuate from situation to situation, but there are certain components of power that are 100% in my control. 191 00:22:30,928.027 --> 00:22:44,98.027 What I think about things, how I judge things, right? To a large extent how I feel things, not instinctual feelings, but how we cognitively evaluate and feel things, right? These things are in my control. 192 00:22:44,98.027 --> 00:22:57,988.027 So you could be in a concentration camp and it's not because you didn't manifest a better destiny for yourself, right? It's not because you could have done things differently or exercise greater willpower, it's because there are external power dynamics that are outside of your control. 193 00:22:58,378.027 --> 00:23:00,808.027 But if you're Viktor Frankl in that camp. 194 00:23:01,633.027 --> 00:23:08,383.027 You keep a free mind and there's, it's an extraordinary thing to be able to do that nobody can ever take from you. 195 00:23:08,383.027 --> 00:23:09,973.027 POWs talk about this. 196 00:23:09,973.027 --> 00:23:18,223.027 trauma victims who have healed and regained their sense of self, talk about this power, and sometimes it's very difficult. 197 00:23:18,643.027 --> 00:23:22,63.027 Sometimes it's darn near impossible, but at the end of the day. 198 00:23:22,683.027 --> 00:23:23,973.027 This is your humanity. 199 00:23:24,123.027 --> 00:23:25,443.027 This is what you have. 200 00:23:25,893.027 --> 00:23:27,833.027 And it's really incredible. 201 00:23:28,223.027 --> 00:23:49,468.027 And so I feel incredibly passionate about teaching people the tools that they need to regulate themselves, but also teaching them about this strategy of how do I come in here? How do I come in there? How do I know which is which? What are the signs? If I'm all the way here, what type of empathy tools do I utilize? Because, listen, especially as a woman, I'm already pretty darn good at this part. 202 00:23:49,498.027 --> 00:23:51,718.027 I'm pretty darn good at the emotional empathy part. 203 00:23:52,108.027 --> 00:24:02,98.027 I need to get better at this part, but I'm already way ahead of people who don't come into a room and read it because coming into a room and reading it is power. 204 00:24:02,903.027 --> 00:24:10,763.027 And all I'm doing is I'm helping you strategize through the use of that power and control it a little bit more. 205 00:24:11,33.027 --> 00:24:14,963.027 It's almost like women are going around being these superheroes with powers that they can't control. 206 00:24:14,963.027 --> 00:24:25,43.027 I don't know if you're a fan of the Marvel films or not, but my favorite superhero movies are always like the coming of age superhero movie where you know, they're discovering their powers, but they don't know how to control them. 207 00:24:25,73.027 --> 00:24:28,703.027 And I feel like a lot of the people I work with are like that. 208 00:24:28,853.027 --> 00:24:32,663.027 They're discovering their powers and they just need some coaching on how to control them. 209 00:24:32,693.027 --> 00:24:34,853.027 And that's my job, and that's what I hope the book will do. 210 00:24:36,398.027 --> 00:24:41,598.027 So if you feel comfortable during your time at Barack Ferno. 211 00:24:41,868.027 --> 00:24:42,108.027 Yeah. 212 00:24:42,113.027 --> 00:24:45,743.027 You represented a lot of major Fortune 500 companies. 213 00:24:46,463.027 --> 00:25:00,793.027 Give us, give my listeners some examples, whatever you feel comfortable with as to how, in what kind of situations you apply tactical, empathy and how it served you as well as your clients. 214 00:25:01,363.027 --> 00:25:01,753.027 Sure. 215 00:25:02,203.027 --> 00:25:04,423.027 How about I give you two? A small one and a big one. 216 00:25:04,533.027 --> 00:25:11,503.027 for the longest time I had a colleague with whom I had to work and we were roughly equal on the corporate rung. 217 00:25:11,623.027 --> 00:25:12,13.027 Okay. 218 00:25:12,493.027 --> 00:25:21,963.027 But this colleague who, whom I will not name, was extremely difficult to deal with because he believed. 219 00:25:22,473.027 --> 00:25:34,893.027 Listen I'm a smart ass too, so I totally get it, but he believed that it was, IM really important to take every opportunity to make himself appear to be the most valuable member of the team, which we've all happened. 220 00:25:34,953.027 --> 00:25:51,93.027 We, we've all had, had it happen to us in the corporate world before and took every opportunity to either belittle someone else's idea or take credit for the idea they just expressed a minute ago, or one up them somehow, or just be disrespectful or whatever it is. 221 00:25:51,513.027 --> 00:25:52,173.027 He wasn't. 222 00:25:52,563.027 --> 00:25:59,43.027 He wasn't unethical, right? He wasn't like slitting throats and burning documents at night. 223 00:25:59,373.027 --> 00:26:03,243.027 So it wasn't anything that was highly morally objectionable. 224 00:26:03,243.027 --> 00:26:15,573.027 It was just that sort of typical cutthroat, corporate combative competitiveness that, that you see happening around you no matter what field you're in. 225 00:26:15,703.027 --> 00:26:18,463.027 So I had to deal with this individual on a daily basis. 226 00:26:18,463.027 --> 00:26:24,373.027 We were on the same team, okay? It's literally like being two pro sports players on the same team. 227 00:26:24,673.027 --> 00:26:33,253.027 We had to effectuate a result jointly, and yet I also wanted to be recognized for my work. 228 00:26:33,343.027 --> 00:26:39,903.027 And there's nothing wrong with that, right? It doesn't make me arrogant despite what this colleague might have said. 229 00:26:40,273.027 --> 00:26:41,893.027 it doesn't make me self-obsessed. 230 00:26:41,923.027 --> 00:26:42,973.027 I just wanna get. 231 00:26:43,288.027 --> 00:26:45,358.027 My recognition for the work that I'm doing. 232 00:26:45,928.027 --> 00:26:52,888.027 So what I came to understand about this individual was first that he was extremely religious. 233 00:26:53,728.027 --> 00:27:04,48.027 Once I understood his faith, I could converse with him about things in a very different way than I could before I understood his faith. 234 00:27:04,528.027 --> 00:27:08,508.027 And I don't mean that I went to him and said what would Jesus say? I would never do that. 235 00:27:08,838.027 --> 00:27:18,148.027 But rather in a respectful and appropriate way, I was able to shape and direct my conversations around faith. 236 00:27:18,208.027 --> 00:27:21,808.027 I could sprinkle in the language, I could talk about. 237 00:27:22,228.027 --> 00:27:27,748.027 An instance of religious freedom that I observed in this country that I treasured. 238 00:27:28,78.027 --> 00:27:31,918.027 I could talk about a service I attended that I thought was really interesting. 239 00:27:31,948.027 --> 00:27:33,928.027 I could ask a question about the Bible. 240 00:27:34,168.027 --> 00:27:34,888.027 It's not my faith. 241 00:27:34,938.027 --> 00:27:43,938.027 But at the same time, I could show genuine interest in something that was so important to this person's moral worth. 242 00:27:44,688.027 --> 00:27:53,28.027 And it created, it, made it more difficult for them to now one up meet in a meeting because now they're connected to me. 243 00:27:53,448.027 --> 00:28:03,198.027 So even though I'm maintaining my distance, my emotional distance here, because I don't trust this person yet for really good reason, right? I'm maintaining my emotional distance. 244 00:28:03,348.027 --> 00:28:04,968.027 They're connecting with me. 245 00:28:05,168.027 --> 00:28:08,258.027 And they're feeling emotional empathy toward me. 246 00:28:08,888.027 --> 00:28:18,38.027 And that change, that shift, although very slight, did improve our working relationship substantially. 247 00:28:18,368.027 --> 00:28:20,408.027 This person would never be my first choice. 248 00:28:20,438.027 --> 00:28:32,648.027 And no, we didn't become best friends and braid each other's hair and watch American Idol together, but we were able to get through this case and I was able to get through this case and survive it and actually end up being. 249 00:28:33,428.027 --> 00:28:41,938.027 Making a sort of a colleague friend, I understood him and what makes him tick and what was justice to him and what was appropriate to him. 250 00:28:42,298.027 --> 00:29:01,98.027 I also understood whether I agree with it or not, the pressures of being the breadwinner that were on him and placed upon him by his family, by his community, by his church, whatever it might be, right? And that understanding, even if it just leads to a joke or two in the break room that we could both laugh at, is a point of connection. 251 00:29:01,458.027 --> 00:29:04,818.027 So I was able to utilize my knowledge of this individual. 252 00:29:05,748.027 --> 00:29:12,18.027 In order to understand them better while maintaining my emotional distance, yet building a relationship. 253 00:29:12,48.027 --> 00:29:20,503.027 And I'll tell you, Soma I swear by the time we finished that case, listen again, I wasn't all the way here in terms of being emotionally connected, but I wasn't all the way here either. 254 00:29:20,553.027 --> 00:29:32,943.027 I was coming along, I was starting to appreciate and see things about this person on an emotional level that there's no way I could have a few months ago and maybe even learn a thing or two from him. 255 00:29:33,93.027 --> 00:29:35,643.027 Hopefully he learned as much from me. 256 00:29:36,213.027 --> 00:29:41,3.027 But again I was too smart to jump in, right? It I'm comfortable with this. 257 00:29:41,3.027 --> 00:29:50,333.027 We're gonna keep it at this instead of this, right? So this is, it was a good spot for a work colleague who started out as a hostile factor in my work and my so that's my small example. 258 00:29:50,333.027 --> 00:29:56,93.027 My big example is one time I was in the middle of a negotiation with a mediator, and it turns out the mediator. 259 00:29:56,393.027 --> 00:30:12,73.027 Is doing all kind of work, paid work in other matters for the opposing side, which is something he should have disclosed, right? Hey, I make what, 50, 60, $70,000 a year from your opponent, giving me other work. 260 00:30:12,133.027 --> 00:30:14,533.027 So I feel like that's something we should have been told. 261 00:30:14,533.027 --> 00:30:20,713.027 We weren't, and my partner just exploded in the middle. 262 00:30:20,713.027 --> 00:30:22,123.027 It was a multi-day negotiation. 263 00:30:22,123.027 --> 00:30:29,148.027 I think we were on day three He just started accusing the mediator of being unethical and of being biased. 264 00:30:29,148.027 --> 00:30:34,398.027 And the mediator immediately got extremely defensive because he had somehow justified it in his own brain. 265 00:30:34,728.027 --> 00:30:36,628.027 he wasn't trying to one up us. 266 00:30:36,628.027 --> 00:30:42,598.027 He was just perfectly fine being rationally objective in this situation, although we might have felt otherwise. 267 00:30:43,108.027 --> 00:30:44,908.027 So he gets really upset. 268 00:30:44,908.027 --> 00:30:46,228.027 He starts to storm out. 269 00:30:46,378.027 --> 00:30:49,198.027 We're D three in a five day negotiation. 270 00:30:49,468.027 --> 00:30:55,588.027 If we have any hope of this thing resolving, we need to get that mediator to come back in the room. 271 00:30:55,888.027 --> 00:30:58,48.027 And we also need to get my partner to calm down. 272 00:30:58,238.027 --> 00:30:59,168.027 this is really interesting. 273 00:30:59,218.027 --> 00:31:00,208.027 in a war context. 274 00:31:00,208.027 --> 00:31:02,848.027 You never touch people, right? It's a little strange except for a handshake. 275 00:31:03,763.027 --> 00:31:05,803.027 I actually went up to the mediator. 276 00:31:06,13.027 --> 00:31:11,893.027 I physically stood, not in a threatening way, but I physically stood between him and the door. 277 00:31:12,463.027 --> 00:31:17,823.027 And I very gently just touched his upper arm and I said, please stay. 278 00:31:18,453.027 --> 00:31:19,563.027 Let's discuss. 279 00:31:20,73.027 --> 00:31:25,23.027 And then I looked him in the eyes and I said, imagine if we could get this resolved now. 280 00:31:25,573.027 --> 00:31:32,833.027 And so what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to trigger for him the difference between explosive mediation. 281 00:31:32,833.027 --> 00:31:36,223.027 When everyone found out about a potential conflict, he left the room. 282 00:31:36,403.027 --> 00:31:38,503.027 His reputation is impacted versus. 283 00:31:39,628.027 --> 00:31:43,858.027 Taking an explosive mediation and converting it into a successful one. 284 00:31:44,188.027 --> 00:31:49,788.027 So I'm trying to get him to go through that mental analysis and then meanwhile go and grab my partner and come back. 285 00:31:49,818.027 --> 00:31:53,208.027 I will tell you, he may have been biased before, but he wasn't after. 286 00:31:53,808.027 --> 00:32:03,708.027 If anything, he was bending over backwards to accommodate us, and the matter settled very favorably after, not entirely after the fifth day. 287 00:32:03,708.027 --> 00:32:08,238.027 We ended up having a couple follow up calls, but by the next week the matter was settled and. 288 00:32:08,523.027 --> 00:32:12,783.027 That I thought was a really great example of using an wanted touch. 289 00:32:12,783.027 --> 00:32:15,573.027 There's big difference between unwanted touch and want to touch. 290 00:32:15,873.027 --> 00:32:18,633.027 And just because you wanna touch someone, it doesn't make it want to touch. 291 00:32:18,723.027 --> 00:32:22,293.027 Okay? Want to touch means it has to be welcomed by the person receiving it. 292 00:32:22,803.027 --> 00:32:48,253.027 But I feel if you are an empath, empathetic person, you can tell when a touch can be comforting and you can tell when it will be threatening or harassing, or at least as you go toward them, if they go back, you can also pull back, right? You can respond to their response because you're reading not just their words, but also their body language and their tone and the way they respond. 293 00:32:48,403.027 --> 00:32:54,253.027 And if as I go toward him, I calm my tone and mirror a tone. 294 00:32:54,778.027 --> 00:32:57,268.027 I'm just helping him reduce his heart rate. 295 00:32:57,628.027 --> 00:33:01,738.027 I'm helping him reduce the activity in his amygdala, all of which he's doing right. 296 00:33:01,768.027 --> 00:33:08,238.027 I'm not reducing his heart rate and I'm helping him take the edge off a little bit so that he can hi. 297 00:33:08,298.027 --> 00:33:17,28.027 The cognitive aspects of his brain can focus better on what rationally makes sense in this situation because it is not rational at this point for him to walk out. 298 00:33:18,168.027 --> 00:33:21,408.027 And by the way, if it's ever rational for somebody to walk out, they should walk out. 299 00:33:21,408.027 --> 00:33:29,208.027 I'm not against walking out in a negotiation, right? All I'm saying is you need to be able to judge the situation for what it is. 300 00:33:29,758.027 --> 00:33:31,228.027 In those kind of situations. 301 00:33:31,228.027 --> 00:33:40,678.027 And I think we, across all walks of life, conflict happens and we need to resolve those kind of situations. 302 00:33:40,728.027 --> 00:33:40,878.027 Yeah. 303 00:33:41,738.027 --> 00:34:11,528.027 instead of going from zero to 60 and joining in on the drama, how did you keep calm? What techniques do you use for yourself or that you advise others so that you can stay calm and focused and try to basically look at the whole picture and fix it? So the first thing I'll say is I'm not always successful. 304 00:34:12,593.027 --> 00:34:24,683.027 One of the ways in which I learned to do this is through failure, through being overwhelmed and calm isn't just necessary when we're faced with drama or aggression or hostility. 305 00:34:24,953.027 --> 00:34:35,903.027 It's also necessary when we're faced with unnerving anxiety or fear or sorrow, right? I know people who can be so overwhelmed by their sorrow. 306 00:34:35,903.027 --> 00:34:43,793.027 It's not that they're not entitled to being sad, it's that they're so overwhelmed by their sorrow that the emotion is no longer serving them. 307 00:34:44,183.027 --> 00:35:01,403.027 It is harming them and the people they're responsible for, right? And so what you learn is you learn about, remember that space we talked about between stimuli and response, that space you can find ways of objectively extending the space. 308 00:35:01,683.027 --> 00:35:14,103.027 By taking a breath, we have, we give little children a timeout, and yet we forget to give ourselves a single beat, a single breath before we respond. 309 00:35:14,673.027 --> 00:35:22,153.027 When you sense your blood pressure rising, your muscles tensing up, the anger coming up, that's it. 310 00:35:22,663.027 --> 00:35:25,243.027 One beat, you're entitled to that beat. 311 00:35:25,783.027 --> 00:35:44,83.027 But here's the really incredible thing in that moment where everything slows down and you're able to be rational in this situation, in that moment of objective time that you created, so much is happening. 312 00:35:44,458.027 --> 00:35:45,628.027 So much is happening. 313 00:35:45,628.027 --> 00:35:46,948.027 You're reducing your heart rate. 314 00:35:46,948.027 --> 00:36:06,388.027 You're bringing down your sweat levels, you are relaxing the tense tension of your muscles, and the more practiced you are at yoga or at meditation or at these types of skill sets, the better you are at controlling your heart rate and controlling your blood pressure, and controlling your breathing, and controlling your anger so that you are not explosive. 315 00:36:07,798.027 --> 00:36:10,648.027 And this really cool thing happens. 316 00:36:10,768.027 --> 00:36:14,608.027 The more you do this, the less you need the objective. 317 00:36:14,808.027 --> 00:36:19,638.027 the more you do this, the more instinctual it really becomes. 318 00:36:19,848.027 --> 00:36:20,868.027 And I'll give you an example. 319 00:36:22,98.027 --> 00:36:26,688.027 I was a few years ago in the middle of mothering my young children. 320 00:36:26,688.027 --> 00:36:30,648.027 My kids were really young, the oldest were three, they were twins. 321 00:36:31,308.027 --> 00:36:40,398.027 And I received some very traumatic news, and I knew that if I behaved tally in response to this horrible news. 322 00:36:41,468.027 --> 00:36:43,508.027 I also knew that my children had to be told the truth. 323 00:36:43,538.027 --> 00:36:58,188.027 I had learned this jui as a child in Iran from my own parents, and immediately within a split second I could react calmly because there was so much pressure on me to protect my little ones. 324 00:36:59,58.027 --> 00:37:02,388.027 So it is that thing that we can all do. 325 00:37:02,388.027 --> 00:37:03,198.027 We've all done it. 326 00:37:03,468.027 --> 00:37:04,218.027 We've all been there. 327 00:37:04,218.027 --> 00:37:08,58.027 We all have a story like that, right where we. 328 00:37:08,748.027 --> 00:37:09,828.027 Found something out. 329 00:37:09,828.027 --> 00:37:12,588.027 But we were responsible for a team, for a group of people. 330 00:37:12,618.027 --> 00:37:27,828.027 And in a work context, maybe I lost a major client, maybe whatever it is right now, there's people whose jobs depend on me, whose insurance depends on me, whose child's insurance depends on me, right? And how I behave and how I react in this moment. 331 00:37:27,828.027 --> 00:37:28,938.027 That's a lot of pressure. 332 00:37:29,488.027 --> 00:37:40,348.027 It can destroy me and rip me up, or I can allow it to give me the strength I need to be able to control and regulate myself at that moment. 333 00:37:40,408.027 --> 00:37:41,548.027 And we have all done it. 334 00:37:41,548.027 --> 00:37:43,198.027 And we have all done it in a split second. 335 00:37:43,528.027 --> 00:37:49,678.027 Not every time, obviously not every time we've been triggered, but we have an example or two that we can think of. 336 00:37:49,888.027 --> 00:37:50,638.027 We've been there. 337 00:37:50,848.027 --> 00:37:56,938.027 So all I'm talking about is taking that skillset, which most people already have. 338 00:37:57,778.027 --> 00:38:12,528.027 Being intentional about it, understanding it, and then starting to apply it in these other circumstances where maybe it's not automatic yet, Maybe it's not instinctual yet, but you'll get yourself there because you know you're capable, because you've done it before. 339 00:38:14,108.027 --> 00:38:14,948.027 That is excellent. 340 00:38:14,948.027 --> 00:38:33,918.027 And it's a topic that I frequently talk about and I have discussed it in other podcast episodes where it's those very same things, whether it's you get bad news or you are in a heated argument, or you are in a moment of having a panic attack. 341 00:38:34,428.027 --> 00:38:39,58.027 It's that moment where you have to what I call it is tap your own shoulder. 342 00:38:39,778.027 --> 00:38:49,48.027 And stop yourself not from doing something or saying something, but basically taking that moment, taking advantage of that one second. 343 00:38:49,48.027 --> 00:39:01,948.027 Sometimes it's just one second to stop and basically calm yourself so that you can make the next hopefully logical decision. 344 00:39:02,278.027 --> 00:39:02,548.027 Yeah. 345 00:39:03,118.027 --> 00:39:17,183.027 Are these some of the things that you teach your students, or what other topics do you talk about that help them in terms of negotiation and leadership? By the way, I love the tap your shoulder reference, like pattern interruption. 346 00:39:17,183.027 --> 00:39:17,753.027 I love that. 347 00:39:18,293.027 --> 00:39:26,483.027 So I teach, I do teach a negotiating with tactical empathy class that involves a substantial aspect of stoicism as well. 348 00:39:26,813.027 --> 00:39:28,133.027 And it's actually a workshop. 349 00:39:28,133.027 --> 00:39:32,183.027 So it's I get the kids, they're not kids, they're in their twenties and thirties, sometimes even older. 350 00:39:32,483.027 --> 00:39:41,213.027 I get them for a weekend and we get to have a, what's called a power workshop at the law school where it's, I get them for three hours on a Friday and then five hours on a Sunday. 351 00:39:41,213.027 --> 00:39:45,653.027 And by the end of it, you think they're gonna hate you, but actually you've bonded and you're so close to each other. 352 00:39:45,653.027 --> 00:39:48,983.027 I actually really love those intensive periods of time with the students. 353 00:39:48,983.027 --> 00:39:55,523.027 And you get to practice the skills, the negotiation skills, and then you get to actually practice the tools of empathy. 354 00:39:55,883.027 --> 00:40:12,713.027 Okay, now I'm gonna retry this negotiation mindful of these three tools Now that I'm mindful of them and I'm utilizing them, how much has my negotiation skill improved? But I also teach a global transactions class, global transactions and regulation, and I actually wrote a textbook in that area as well. 355 00:40:12,923.027 --> 00:40:29,783.027 It was a large component of my practice was a global practice, and especially because of the global nature of my practice, the global nature of my upbringing, I am very fascinated by the corporate and the business world in the global context. 356 00:40:30,263.027 --> 00:40:45,773.027 Also, I very much enjoy knowing about macro global economics and the ways in which say, trade influence, say national security or the ways in which aid say influences. 357 00:40:46,163.027 --> 00:41:02,183.027 Corporate investments in agriculture, right? So these things are very fascinating to me because they allow me to see the world on a slightly bigger scale, which allows me to better advise my clients as they make these big decisions in foreign markets because I have this sort of bigger understanding. 358 00:41:02,513.027 --> 00:41:09,963.027 So this class, I actually think it's a super fun class, but it is, it's not an intensive class on any particular subject. 359 00:41:09,963.027 --> 00:41:18,63.027 So I don't do a whole class on employment law or a whole class on intellectual property law or a whole class on tax law. 360 00:41:18,363.027 --> 00:41:29,373.027 But it's rather one session on tax law, one session on intellectual property law, and international, right? Like here's the main difference between Europe, states and Canada, and here's what it's like to work. 361 00:41:30,348.027 --> 00:41:31,278.027 Cross Atlantic. 362 00:41:31,308.027 --> 00:41:34,758.027 Right? And it, it's really enjoyable. 363 00:41:34,758.027 --> 00:41:37,788.027 And for that class, my students are MSL students. 364 00:41:37,788.027 --> 00:41:39,588.027 They're masters of science and law students. 365 00:41:39,948.027 --> 00:41:42,228.027 So a lot of them are already working professionals. 366 00:41:42,288.027 --> 00:41:44,478.027 And it is an online class. 367 00:41:44,538.027 --> 00:41:48,38.027 So I've got students calling it, I had one time somebody from Azerbaijan. 368 00:41:48,338.027 --> 00:41:50,738.027 I've had people from Asia at three o'clock in the morning. 369 00:41:50,738.027 --> 00:41:51,518.027 Their time. 370 00:41:51,848.027 --> 00:41:52,868.027 Tuning into the class. 371 00:41:52,868.027 --> 00:42:01,358.027 And so we get to have their global perspective, which is such a gift to the classroom and I genuinely love teaching it. 372 00:42:01,358.027 --> 00:42:05,378.027 I also teach just a couple of litigation type typical law school courses. 373 00:42:05,378.027 --> 00:42:12,898.027 I help judge Harjani, a local judge here, teach his federal civil procedure class, but I always bring stoic empathy into it. 374 00:42:12,898.027 --> 00:42:16,828.027 So if I'm teaching a class on how to take a deposition, I'm teaching stoic empathy. 375 00:42:16,828.027 --> 00:42:20,278.027 If I teach a class on how to negotiate, I'm teaching stoic empathy. 376 00:42:20,278.027 --> 00:42:27,448.027 So it's like this sort of universal, if I'm teaching global transactions, I'm teaching cross-cultural stoic empathy. 377 00:42:29,308.027 --> 00:42:31,468.027 So that is it. 378 00:42:31,538.027 --> 00:42:36,698.027 It's a little bit more challenging 'cause it requires you to have a different level of awareness of the people around you. 379 00:42:37,208.027 --> 00:42:38,238.027 But I love it. 380 00:42:39,228.027 --> 00:42:41,748.027 I'm so overwhelmed with all that you do. 381 00:42:41,798.027 --> 00:42:45,158.027 You're an author, as I was saying earlier in the podcast. 382 00:42:45,158.027 --> 00:42:51,198.027 You're an author, you are a TEDx producer, you are a professor. 383 00:42:51,198.027 --> 00:42:52,818.027 you're so many things. 384 00:42:53,298.027 --> 00:43:08,538.027 And how do you juggle a successful career with your family life? It's always challenging between the boundaries of taking care of patients and then taking care of my own family. 385 00:43:08,748.027 --> 00:43:25,998.027 What does that look like for you and what would you advise women to? there, was a previous podcast that I did where we decided balance was not the right word, but more like equilibrating. 386 00:43:25,998.027 --> 00:43:37,188.027 How do you equilibrate your personal and professional life so that you can spend equal amounts of time for both because you're only one person, but you do so much. 387 00:43:41,98.027 --> 00:43:49,78.027 So I took my kids to Columbia for winter break this year so we could paraglide off the Andes and we went paragliding off the Andes. 388 00:43:49,258.027 --> 00:43:54,388.027 My daughter landed in a field of daffodils and it's so zebo. 389 00:43:54,388.027 --> 00:43:56,518.027 she lands in this field of daffodils. 390 00:43:57,508.027 --> 00:44:03,848.027 I landed in a field of rocks and cow poop, so I landed in okay. 391 00:44:03,898.027 --> 00:44:07,528.027 I got to jump off the with my kids. 392 00:44:07,558.027 --> 00:44:14,968.027 How weird and cool and exciting is that, and the view is extraordinary and the fear and the overcoming it. 393 00:44:15,358.027 --> 00:44:19,233.027 But sometimes you gotta, I dunno what to tell you. 394 00:44:19,618.027 --> 00:44:31,573.027 And it's not in your control where you land, and so I think for me a lot of it is those times when I fall flat on my face is first remembering there's only so much I can control. 395 00:44:32,143.027 --> 00:44:38,463.027 And those things that are out of my control, I need to start to release and try to exercise the control that I do have. 396 00:44:38,793.027 --> 00:44:48,843.027 So for instance, let's say I'm in a moment where I am promoting my book, like right now, and I'm on a press tour like right now and I'm doing three, four podcasts or interviews a day. 397 00:44:48,933.027 --> 00:44:53,673.027 And it's extremely intellectually and emotionally demanding. 398 00:44:54,573.027 --> 00:44:54,663.027 Yes. 399 00:44:55,243.027 --> 00:44:56,773.027 I might see my kids a little bit less. 400 00:44:56,773.027 --> 00:45:02,983.027 I might not be able to make pickup every day, but when I do see them, I can try to be extremely present for them. 401 00:45:03,643.027 --> 00:45:08,83.027 I can try to create what I call resting, smiling mom face for them. 402 00:45:08,773.027 --> 00:45:10,543.027 And that's not to say I ever hide the truth. 403 00:45:10,573.027 --> 00:45:12,763.027 If I'm stressed, I discuss it with them. 404 00:45:13,33.027 --> 00:45:15,13.027 If I'm sad, I discuss it with them. 405 00:45:15,43.027 --> 00:45:22,993.027 I also discuss with them how I'm coping with my stress or how I'm coping with my sorrow, or how their embrace is helping with my sorrow. 406 00:45:23,63.027 --> 00:45:35,973.027 the reality is that quality of that interaction can be so much more impactful than me just being in the same house as the kids while I watch tv and they watch TV or play video games in a different room. 407 00:45:36,343.027 --> 00:45:40,993.027 So I and I, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna say quantity doesn't matter 'cause it does. 408 00:45:41,173.027 --> 00:45:46,693.027 I think especially with teenagers, they really need you to just be around. 409 00:45:46,723.027 --> 00:45:52,813.027 They need you to just be around so that the minute they decide they do want you, you're available. 410 00:45:52,843.027 --> 00:45:55,843.027 That's the thing with teens, because little kids, they want you all the time. 411 00:45:55,873.027 --> 00:45:57,373.027 So whatever you can give 'em, they'll take. 412 00:45:57,643.027 --> 00:45:57,703.027 Yeah. 413 00:45:57,703.027 --> 00:46:03,3.027 But the older ones like about, a 15th of the time they want you, the rest of the time they don't. 414 00:46:03,153.027 --> 00:46:08,283.027 But that 15th of the time, they don't just want you, they need you and they don't need a babysitter. 415 00:46:08,403.027 --> 00:46:09,63.027 They need you. 416 00:46:09,563.027 --> 00:46:12,743.027 And there's actually something really cool and extraordinary about that. 417 00:46:12,773.027 --> 00:46:17,63.027 And so I tried to shift my work as the kids got older, to be more remote. 418 00:46:17,453.027 --> 00:46:22,463.027 And that is a freedom of flexibility that I had that a lot of other people do not have. 419 00:46:22,943.027 --> 00:46:31,283.027 So what can they do? They can just, when they are home, be more present, try to be in the physical space with them as much as possible. 420 00:46:31,413.027 --> 00:46:34,983.027 And then also incorporate your kids into your activities. 421 00:46:35,493.027 --> 00:46:36,993.027 I incorporate my kids into everything. 422 00:46:36,993.027 --> 00:46:40,23.027 My kids are with me on set when I'm producing TED Talks. 423 00:46:40,23.027 --> 00:46:42,813.027 My kids are with me backstage, my kids are with me. 424 00:46:43,213.027 --> 00:46:49,363.027 As much as we can do it without it interfering with their education because their education is primary. 425 00:46:49,843.027 --> 00:46:52,3.027 But my kids are with me when I protest. 426 00:46:52,483.027 --> 00:46:55,633.027 When I write something, I'll have my eldest daughter proofread it. 427 00:46:56,313.027 --> 00:47:02,283.027 Infusing them into my life so that it's not mom life, work life, friend life. 428 00:47:02,383.027 --> 00:47:04,3.027 But rather trying. 429 00:47:04,3.027 --> 00:47:05,653.027 I like your word equilibrium. 430 00:47:06,133.027 --> 00:47:13,363.027 I also like the word infusion, right? This kind of infusion of things because this is the world we live in now. 431 00:47:13,363.027 --> 00:47:17,83.027 Your child can call you from school on FaceTime if they really need to talk to you. 432 00:47:17,83.027 --> 00:47:20,173.027 It's a different world that didn't exist not too long ago. 433 00:47:20,173.027 --> 00:47:27,223.027 Not only did we not have FaceTime, but it also was not permissible for your child to call you while you were at work without you suffering some sort of penalty. 434 00:47:27,673.027 --> 00:47:33,103.027 Nowadays, unless it's extreme and you're not able to get your work done, it's perfectly acceptable for something like that to happen. 435 00:47:33,103.027 --> 00:47:38,253.027 It's also perfectly acceptable for you to step out for a doctor's appointment and come back if you really need to. 436 00:47:38,363.027 --> 00:47:39,923.027 So there's this infusion. 437 00:47:39,923.027 --> 00:47:42,233.027 And then also we answer emails when we're with our kids. 438 00:47:42,283.027 --> 00:47:44,233.027 Which bad in some ways. 439 00:47:44,233.027 --> 00:47:45,553.027 'cause you need to be focused on them. 440 00:47:45,733.027 --> 00:47:45,913.027 Good. 441 00:47:45,913.027 --> 00:47:46,393.027 In another ways. 442 00:47:46,393.027 --> 00:47:47,923.027 'cause you don't have to be at the office today. 443 00:47:48,73.027 --> 00:47:50,293.027 'cause when that email comes in, you can respond to it. 444 00:47:50,623.027 --> 00:47:53,233.027 As long as you're present, when you're supposed to be present. 445 00:47:53,563.027 --> 00:47:59,883.027 So I think this sort of intermingling of the different lives together, especially with today's youth. 446 00:48:00,463.027 --> 00:48:36,393.027 I always say about teenagers actually learn from my other sister, not the one who works in refugee camps, but the one who's a teacher, she's a high school teacher, and she says, man, teenagers are jerks, but you know what? They read poetry and they understand politics and they have ideas that no one has thought of yet So intellectually fascinated by the kids she teaches, not because they're perfect little angels, but because they're fascinating creatures that contribute to the world in their own way and have a different kind of sophistication. 447 00:48:36,978.027 --> 00:48:41,588.027 They understand digital interaction, they understand ai, they understand things that we don't understand. 448 00:48:41,738.027 --> 00:48:57,258.027 And so allowing their understanding and not snickering at it but allowing their understanding to enrich us, I really think goes a long way toward them, allowing our understanding to enrich them and helping to find that balance, especially as teens. 449 00:48:57,258.027 --> 00:49:05,658.027 But I think that overall you can actually maintain a peaceful home that is, that space of healing that I had when I came home when I was younger. 450 00:49:06,348.027 --> 00:49:10,398.027 And it doesn't mean it's always perfect, doesn't mean there's never a fight or an argument. 451 00:49:10,398.027 --> 00:49:13,758.027 It doesn't mean you never lose your cool, doesn't mean any of those things. 452 00:49:13,838.027 --> 00:49:28,578.027 I actually think the right standard is how do I make sure my child feels valued? When they're with me, the best way to do that is to actually value them when they're with me, like actively value them. 453 00:49:28,818.027 --> 00:49:38,808.027 The way, if you're practicing mindfulness, you might actually think about the cereal as you're pouring it from the box, or you might actually think about the water hitting your skin in the shower as it's hitting your skin. 454 00:49:39,108.027 --> 00:49:49,578.027 I can actually think about my child's value as I'm speaking with them, or the ideas that they have or the cool things that they say, or the weird things that they do. 455 00:49:49,628.027 --> 00:49:57,448.027 Or the gross things that they, any of it, right? Even if it's just not my style and not my taste, or not my cup of tea. 456 00:49:57,498.027 --> 00:50:01,623.027 There's a kind of a charm and a magic about getting to be a part of that. 457 00:50:02,73.027 --> 00:50:10,333.027 And I really think they sense it and then when you do get exhausted and need a break, I think they can be more empathetic as well. 458 00:50:10,403.027 --> 00:50:12,563.027 When you're like, okay, I need to just leave the house tonight. 459 00:50:12,563.027 --> 00:50:14,783.027 I'm sorry, I am, I can't anymore. 460 00:50:15,783.027 --> 00:50:20,843.027 I think if we try our best not to snicker at their language, oh my God. 461 00:50:20,843.027 --> 00:50:33,753.027 My kid, I had my kids gave me a quiz, my, me and my husband to see who knew the most amount of alpha Gen and Gen Z language words and the winner of the quiz got a shoulder up from the kids. 462 00:50:34,323.027 --> 00:50:36,723.027 But I also, I am a writer, so I am. 463 00:50:37,398.027 --> 00:50:40,428.027 I always talk to my kids about precision with language. 464 00:50:40,428.027 --> 00:50:45,228.027 Precision is extremely important to me, so I'm also an extremely annoying mom. 465 00:50:45,468.027 --> 00:50:47,748.027 So it's no, you don't hate this. 466 00:50:47,898.027 --> 00:50:51,288.027 How do you actually feel about it? No, I really hate it. 467 00:50:51,618.027 --> 00:50:53,448.027 No, you don't really hate it. 468 00:50:53,628.027 --> 00:50:54,918.027 That's not what hate is. 469 00:50:55,188.027 --> 00:50:58,198.027 How do you actually I strongly dislike it. 470 00:50:58,258.027 --> 00:51:02,38.027 Okay, why? It's pungent, and I said, okay. 471 00:51:02,158.027 --> 00:51:04,468.027 Then you say, this is pungent. 472 00:51:04,618.027 --> 00:51:06,178.027 You don't say I hate it. 473 00:51:06,238.027 --> 00:51:11,128.027 And so we have these discussions all the time, and I'm sure I drive them cuckoo bananas with. 474 00:51:12,128.027 --> 00:51:20,958.027 Cher, I think all moms that try their best are super moms, but you are definitely a superstar. 475 00:51:21,8.027 --> 00:51:21,188.027 thank you. 476 00:51:21,188.027 --> 00:51:21,578.027 the best. 477 00:51:21,628.027 --> 00:51:26,338.027 You only have to Google your name and all sorts of stuff comes up. 478 00:51:26,398.027 --> 00:51:31,748.027 So my listeners can easily find you in all the fascinating stuff that you do. 479 00:51:31,748.027 --> 00:51:40,128.027 But for the purposes of the show, where can my listeners find you and learn more about you? Thank you so much for asking that. 480 00:51:40,128.027 --> 00:51:46,8.027 So I have this really impossible to pronounce and impossible to spell name, and I decided to make that my website. 481 00:51:46,243.027 --> 00:51:48,283.027 Because that was a good marketing tool on my end. 482 00:51:48,613.027 --> 00:51:56,833.027 Hey, how about you make your website an impossible to pronounce and to spell website, but it is www do chairman cruise.com. 483 00:51:56,953.027 --> 00:51:59,83.027 Www char cruise.com. 484 00:51:59,83.027 --> 00:52:05,163.027 My name, you guys, if you're listening to this or if you're watching this on Somos show, it's spelled out for you at the bottom there. 485 00:52:05,193.027 --> 00:52:07,263.027 The other thing you can do is just go on Google. 486 00:52:07,263.027 --> 00:52:08,703.027 Don't even Google me Google. 487 00:52:08,753.027 --> 00:52:09,683.027 Stoic empathy. 488 00:52:09,683.027 --> 00:52:11,33.027 First of all, I promise I'll pop up. 489 00:52:11,363.027 --> 00:52:12,833.027 Second of all, buy the book. 490 00:52:12,863.027 --> 00:52:13,493.027 It's everywhere. 491 00:52:13,493.027 --> 00:52:15,233.027 You can get it at Amazon. 492 00:52:15,263.027 --> 00:52:20,633.027 Target thrift books your, if you have a local bookstore that you love, please ask your bookstore for it. 493 00:52:20,663.027 --> 00:52:42,143.027 They'll order it for you, and they'll get it in, and it would be an absolute honor and pleasure to join you guys in your living rooms, in your cars, in your bathrooms, wherever it is you consume audio books or books with you and your kids, and be able to contribute even just a little bit to helping you advance and increase your power in this ever changing. 494 00:52:42,493.027 --> 00:52:47,713.027 Crazy world where a Soma says, we just need to tap ourselves out every once in a while. 495 00:52:47,713.027 --> 00:52:51,813.027 And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast. 496 00:52:52,363.027 --> 00:52:56,153.027 Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says. 497 00:52:56,453.027 --> 00:53:00,113.027 Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.