The Great Weight Myth: Why BMI is Broken and What Real Health Looks Like

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In this episode, Dr. Soma hosts Paula Atkinson, a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker and psychotherapist, who specializes in body liberation and anti-diet approaches. Paula discusses the harmful societal views on body size, the history of fat phobia, and the flawed nature of BMI as a health metric. She shares insights on disordered eating and emphasizes the importance of focusing on actual health markers rather than weight. Paula also highlights the need for medical professionals to approach weight discussions with sensitivity and to consider a more holistic view of health.

Tune in to learn more about the intersection of body image, societal expectations, and mental health.

Episode Breakdown:

00:00 – Introduction to Body Image Issues 00:23 – Meet Paula Atkinson: Body Liberation Expert 03:17 – Paula's Personal Journey with Body Image 09:27 – The Problem with BMI 14:44 – Challenging Diet Culture and Body Norms 17:57 – Practical Tips for Body Acceptance 22:37 – Addressing Medical Fat Shaming 29:30 – Empowering Women Through Body Liberation 35:01 – Conclusion and Where to Find More

 

🔗 Connect with Paula D. Atkinson  Website: https://www.pauladatkinson.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pauladatkinson/

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Episode Transcript

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if you say your body is very large this way, not this way, then it's seen as, it's seen as a failure.

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A large body is seen as a failure and a small body is seen as an achievement, and none of that's real. 3 00:00:14,465.17 --> 00:00:15,965.17 you don't get to talk about people's bodies. 4 00:00:16,5.17 --> 00:00:18,75.17 I emphasize that so much with all my clients. 5 00:00:18,75.17 --> 00:00:21,755.17 Anytime anybody's talked about your body without your consent, that was a violation. 6 00:00:23,200.34 --> 00:00:33,950.34 ​Paula Atkinson is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker and psychotherapist with over a decade of experience helping clients overcome depression, anxiety, and body image issues. 7 00:00:34,700.34 --> 00:00:44,150.34 Specializing in body liberation and anti-diet approaches, she focuses on supporting individuals struggling with disordered eating and internalized weight stigma. 8 00:00:45,190.34 --> 00:00:57,440.34 Paula has taught 'Weight Society,' a body justice course at George Washington University, and integrates diverse therapeutic modalities, including Internal Family Systems and somatic practices, into her work. 9 00:01:03,658.027 --> 00:01:04,658.027 Hi, this is Dr. 10 00:01:04,658.027 --> 00:01:05,128.027 Soma. 11 00:01:05,428.027 --> 00:01:12,518.027 Just a disclaimer, this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice. 12 00:01:12,878.027 --> 00:01:18,698.027 Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen. 13 00:01:19,48.027 --> 00:01:20,38.027 Let's go to the show. 14 00:01:45,638.027 --> 00:01:47,588.027 Welcome to my podcast. 15 00:01:47,588.027 --> 00:01:47,768.027 Thank you. 16 00:01:47,848.027 --> 00:01:51,298.027 Share a few details about yourself so we learn about who you are. 17 00:01:51,568.027 --> 00:01:52,468.027 Yeah, thanks. 18 00:01:52,678.027 --> 00:01:54,298.027 So my name is Paula d Atkinson. 19 00:01:54,628.027 --> 00:01:59,158.027 I am a psychotherapist, a liberation based psychotherapist. 20 00:01:59,308.027 --> 00:02:05,528.027 I'm also a yoga teacher and a dj and an artist and a author, and I do a lot of things. 21 00:02:05,528.027 --> 00:02:13,328.027 But the thing I love to do most is to work with people who have hated their bodies for a long time, have been brainwashed to believe that their bodies. 22 00:02:13,768.027 --> 00:02:20,278.027 Should be a different shape and once their body is the right shape that then their life will take off or whatever. 23 00:02:20,468.027 --> 00:02:23,858.027 And I love to work with people who have been stuck in that place. 24 00:02:23,888.027 --> 00:02:30,878.027 Maybe a difficult relationship with food, a difficult relationship with exercise, a difficult relationship with living in a body. 25 00:02:31,478.027 --> 00:02:36,608.027 And those are the people I try to work with and free them so that they could just live. 26 00:02:37,948.027 --> 00:02:51,78.027 How do most people reach you and realize that they may have an issue or they don't realize that they have an issue and it's something that you come to discover together? So I worked with I taught. 27 00:02:52,23.027 --> 00:02:54,543.027 At George Washington University for about a decade. 28 00:02:54,543.027 --> 00:03:04,383.027 I taught a course called weight in Society about body justice and about the history of fat phobia and the history of believing that all bodies can and should be the same shape, which is ridiculous. 29 00:03:04,443.027 --> 00:03:07,473.027 And the history of like food production in America. 30 00:03:07,473.027 --> 00:03:13,183.027 So there's so many, the intersection of racism, white supremacy, the history of eugenics. 31 00:03:13,183.027 --> 00:03:17,43.027 There's so many parts of it I started teaching that class about 14 years ago. 32 00:03:17,163.027 --> 00:03:24,833.027 And then the more I learned, the more I couldn't shut up about it, then I 'cause I was like, 'cause I myself have a history of disordered eating. 33 00:03:24,833.027 --> 00:03:26,413.027 I was a big kid. 34 00:03:26,413.027 --> 00:03:30,483.027 My I was just a big kid and I was a fat kid and I was diagnosed obese. 35 00:03:30,483.027 --> 00:03:33,573.027 And I put that in quotes for reasons we can talk about if you want. 36 00:03:33,843.027 --> 00:03:36,153.027 And then I almost starve myself to death in my early twenties. 37 00:03:36,203.027 --> 00:03:38,933.027 To answer your question, I just, like I said, I couldn't shut up about it. 38 00:03:38,983.027 --> 00:03:54,373.027 and I feel like I was one of, now there's more and more, thank God, but I was one of the voices that was like, eating disorders is such a tiny, people have a, who have a diagnosable eating disorder are such a tiny population versus. 39 00:03:55,363.027 --> 00:04:05,653.027 The hundreds and millions of people who just hate their bodies, who hate existing in a body, who think they should be controlling their body, they should be doing something different. 40 00:04:05,703.027 --> 00:04:14,913.027 The number of people who just have a deeply dysfunctional, painful, complicated relationship with food and body shape. 41 00:04:15,393.027 --> 00:04:16,263.027 That's a lot of us. 42 00:04:16,263.027 --> 00:04:18,153.027 You know that, that's the majority of us. 43 00:04:18,393.027 --> 00:04:19,473.027 So I wanna work with. 44 00:04:20,163.027 --> 00:04:24,513.027 That I wanna bring more peace and freedom and sanity to those people. 45 00:04:24,513.027 --> 00:04:29,163.027 So I think the way people find me is the fact that I won't shut up, to be honest. 46 00:04:30,163.027 --> 00:04:32,833.027 So you did the air quotes with obese. 47 00:04:32,883.027 --> 00:04:37,253.027 it's a very harsh word I'm a primary care doctor. 48 00:04:37,413.027 --> 00:04:46,48.027 And It's one of those codes that we have to use if your BMI is above X, Y, Z. 49 00:04:46,278.027 --> 00:04:49,548.027 And if you don't, then you might get penalized for it. 50 00:04:49,768.027 --> 00:04:54,58.027 But honestly, patients call me back or they send me messages. 51 00:04:54,58.027 --> 00:04:58,633.027 You think I'm obese? And you think I'm morbidly obese. 52 00:04:58,713.027 --> 00:05:00,453.027 Like mortified. 53 00:05:00,583.027 --> 00:05:13,748.027 when that happens, just to click, that makes me feel bad, Because that's not the way I think about people Mostly in terms of my patients, I don't think of them that way. 54 00:05:13,938.027 --> 00:05:17,538.027 Why did you use those air quotes? I love the way you said all of that. 55 00:05:17,538.027 --> 00:05:24,738.027 So number one, that you know that somebody can be diagnosed, obese or morbidly obese, and they call you. 56 00:05:26,463.027 --> 00:05:31,413.027 Mortified because it feels like a characterological assassination. 57 00:05:31,533.027 --> 00:06:01,883.027 And in our culture it is because to be fat is to be lazy, to be bad, to be inferior, right? And so what I talk about When I teach my class or when I talk to clients about it, is that we have been brainwashed to believe that there is a hierarchy of humans In a patriarchal, capitalistic, white supremacist society, there is a hierarchy of humans based on body shape skin color, where your ancestors lived, how much money you have, what gender you are, what gender you like to participate with. 58 00:06:02,103.027 --> 00:06:14,33.027 It's like all of these hierarchies of humans and fatness we are so biased against it because it goes against everything that a white supremacist culture values, which is discipline, Individuality. 59 00:06:14,173.027 --> 00:06:16,513.027 white supremacy worships restriction. 60 00:06:16,513.027 --> 00:06:17,623.027 constriction suffering. 61 00:06:17,863.027 --> 00:06:23,483.027 So if you are fat, it means that you are participating in things that are seen as bad in our value system. 62 00:06:23,493.027 --> 00:06:27,623.027 you are enjoying food, leisure, rest, all the things that we as a culture hate. 63 00:06:27,983.027 --> 00:06:32,773.027 To be fat, is it we're taught it's not actually scientifically true, which, as a doctor. 64 00:06:33,413.027 --> 00:06:36,983.027 We're taught that every body can and should be thin. 65 00:06:37,253.027 --> 00:06:41,153.027 If your body is not thin, it's because you are behaving incorrectly. 66 00:06:41,453.027 --> 00:06:42,743.027 That is scientifically false. 67 00:06:42,848.027 --> 00:06:48,728.027 You know as well as I do that the way your body is shaped is because of your genetics, right? It's because. 68 00:06:49,253.027 --> 00:06:50,633.027 Where your ancestors are from. 69 00:06:50,633.027 --> 00:06:55,333.027 It's from, it's all, there's a lot of things going on that make a body fat or make a body thin. 70 00:06:55,633.027 --> 00:06:58,3.027 But we're taught that all the bodies can and should be thin. 71 00:06:58,3.027 --> 00:07:01,543.027 And the only way a body is fat, because a fat body is an aberration. 72 00:07:01,903.027 --> 00:07:08,593.027 The only way a body is fat is if somebody is behaving incorrectly and behaving in ways that we as a culture do not support. 73 00:07:09,103.027 --> 00:07:12,433.027 It's just not true the fact that somebody can get their feelings hurt. 74 00:07:13,348.027 --> 00:07:20,228.027 By a medical diagnosis, right? Nobody gets their feelings hurt when you say, I'm sorry you have lupus, right? That's not a character. 75 00:07:20,888.027 --> 00:07:29,708.027 That's not a characterological issue, but somebody is gonna get their feelings hurt if you say you're obese because we're taught you shouldn't be and it's your fault. 76 00:07:30,308.027 --> 00:07:34,448.027 And we all have 100% control over our body shape 100% of the time. 77 00:07:34,448.027 --> 00:07:35,348.027 It's not true. 78 00:07:35,378.027 --> 00:07:36,968.027 that's what sells diets. 79 00:07:36,968.027 --> 00:07:38,438.027 That's what sells a lot of stuff. 80 00:07:38,888.027 --> 00:07:42,798.027 But that's what it's taught, right? Nobody gets upset if you say you're very tall. 81 00:07:43,298.027 --> 00:07:44,228.027 Because it's just a fact. 82 00:07:44,228.027 --> 00:07:45,38.027 You are very tall. 83 00:07:45,38.027 --> 00:07:46,3.027 There's no character. 84 00:07:46,803.027 --> 00:07:54,213.027 But if you say your body is very large this way, not this way, then it's seen as, it's seen as a failure. 85 00:07:54,218.027 --> 00:07:59,668.027 A large body is seen as a failure and a small body is seen as an achievement, and none of that's real. 86 00:08:00,133.027 --> 00:08:01,603.027 But it's, but that's what we're taught. 87 00:08:01,603.027 --> 00:08:01,693.027 Yes. 88 00:08:01,753.027 --> 00:08:03,103.027 Because sell stuff. 89 00:08:03,193.027 --> 00:08:03,433.027 Yeah. 90 00:08:04,543.027 --> 00:08:11,53.027 So we talked about, how you came, to become a specialist in disordered eating. 91 00:08:11,113.027 --> 00:08:20,983.027 How do you personally define disordered eating? And for my listeners, can you educate us about some of the misconceptions we've talked about? Yeah. 92 00:08:20,983.027 --> 00:08:24,433.027 But misconceptions that people have about it. 93 00:08:25,18.027 --> 00:08:25,618.027 Yeah, great. 94 00:08:25,648.027 --> 00:08:28,348.027 So disordered eating is such a wide umbrella. 95 00:08:28,808.027 --> 00:08:39,788.027 it's hard to come up with a real succinct definition, but something that I say often is if there's not peace and freedom and sanity in your relationship with food, then you probably have a little bit of disordered eating. 96 00:08:40,463.027 --> 00:08:52,913.027 Also, I don't think there is anybody raised in the United States of America that doesn't have a little bit of disordered eating because like we were just talking about with body shape, we do the same morality around food. 97 00:08:53,153.027 --> 00:08:58,373.027 So good food and bad food, and you're a good person if you eat this and you're a bad person if you eat that. 98 00:08:58,373.027 --> 00:09:06,403.027 So I would widen the definition of disordered eating, but I would also widen it to be, but also, it's not your fault, like it's none of our fault. 99 00:09:06,913.027 --> 00:09:16,543.027 I don't know anybody raised in this country within the last 100 years that has a normal, whatever that word means, right? Relationship with food. 100 00:09:16,543.027 --> 00:09:17,533.027 It's just impossible. 101 00:09:17,923.027 --> 00:09:25,53.027 unless you work on it, right? Unless you actively, deliberately work on creating peace and freedom and expansion in your relationship with food. 102 00:09:25,618.027 --> 00:09:37,778.027 I think it's very difficult though The other part of it is a lot of my patients ask me what BMI do you want me to be what, how much weight do I need to lose? I personally, on a personal level. 103 00:09:38,253.027 --> 00:09:52,103.027 I hate BMIs because I'll use myself as an example and I'm in my early fifties and even when I was stick skinny, at my peak performance in terms of working out, eating right. 104 00:09:52,748.027 --> 00:09:56,648.027 I looked to myself like a skeleton. 105 00:09:56,648.027 --> 00:09:56,708.027 Yeah. 106 00:09:57,8.027 --> 00:10:07,648.027 You can't, you may not see it now, but I have very prominent bone structures and so when I lose a significant amount of weight It, you could see my bones right. 107 00:10:07,808.027 --> 00:10:11,848.027 And so whatever normal BMI that was not normal. 108 00:10:12,93.027 --> 00:10:16,513.027 No, I did not necessarily feel my best either. 109 00:10:16,813.027 --> 00:10:20,198.027 So whatever that was, it does not take into your. 110 00:10:21,258.027 --> 00:10:22,848.027 Personal body structure. 111 00:10:23,118.027 --> 00:10:24,438.027 It doesn't take into count. 112 00:10:24,468.027 --> 00:10:25,398.027 Muscle mass. 113 00:10:25,998.027 --> 00:10:26,88.027 Yes. 114 00:10:26,88.027 --> 00:10:26,533.027 All sorts of stuff. 115 00:10:27,63.027 --> 00:10:32,158.027 And that one side, that one number is, it does not fit everybody. 116 00:10:32,458.027 --> 00:10:32,968.027 No. 117 00:10:33,478.027 --> 00:10:33,988.027 Oh my God. 118 00:10:33,988.027 --> 00:10:35,128.027 I hate the BMI so much. 119 00:10:35,338.027 --> 00:10:37,288.027 Yeah, A lot of people know the history of it. 120 00:10:37,338.027 --> 00:10:39,798.027 Okay, so the BMI was invented in 18. 121 00:10:39,798.027 --> 00:10:50,28.027 In the 1830s by a man who was a social scientist or so, or a crime research, like he's not, he wasn't even a doctor. 122 00:10:50,28.027 --> 00:11:02,658.027 He was an astronomer and it was also in Belgium and it, so it's it was invented by a white man who was doing the research on 30 to 3-year-old Belgian men, obviously. 123 00:11:02,688.027 --> 00:11:07,188.027 'cause everything's always a bit, 'cause they, we've never ever, did any research on a female body. 124 00:11:07,218.027 --> 00:11:10,128.027 And so this is where it started. 125 00:11:10,228.027 --> 00:11:14,868.027 Somebody's BMI it wasn't called that, it was called the Kele Index in the 1830s. 126 00:11:15,318.027 --> 00:11:20,538.027 And then in the 1970s, 1960s, 1970s, Ansel Keys, I don't know if you know who he is. 127 00:11:20,538.027 --> 00:11:28,563.027 he did some really good stuff, but he also used, he took the ke lay index and he's the one who turned it into the BMI and he is the one, and he said specifically. 128 00:11:28,753.027 --> 00:11:32,473.027 This should never be used for individual measures of health ever. 129 00:11:32,763.027 --> 00:11:36,333.027 It's the best we can do for huge population studies. 130 00:11:36,903.027 --> 00:11:48,243.027 He said that the guy who brought the BMI back from 140 years from prior, he brought it back into the culture, but he was doing huge population studies in the 1970s. 131 00:11:48,753.027 --> 00:11:52,233.027 Then the insurance companies, again, 'cause everything starts with insurance companies. 132 00:11:52,413.027 --> 00:11:54,273.027 The insurance companies are the ones who took it. 133 00:11:54,793.027 --> 00:12:00,43.027 And they said, oh, if we take this, then we can decide these people are in it. 134 00:12:00,43.027 --> 00:12:01,3.027 These people are out of it. 135 00:12:01,3.027 --> 00:12:02,533.027 We can deny insurance to this people. 136 00:12:02,613.027 --> 00:12:06,3.027 So it was never meant to be used for individual measures of health. 137 00:12:06,543.027 --> 00:12:06,933.027 also. 138 00:12:08,113.027 --> 00:12:09,43.027 Overnight. 139 00:12:09,73.027 --> 00:12:19,723.027 In 1997, the American Health Organization, the American Medical Association, overnight changed the goalposts, changed the criteria. 140 00:12:19,723.027 --> 00:12:28,543.027 So there were 20 million people who went to bed on June 3rd, 1997, and woke up on June 4th, 1997, and now they were obese. 141 00:12:28,543.027 --> 00:12:34,868.027 Or now they were in the overweight category or now their weight didn't change, but they just shifted overnight. 142 00:12:35,108.027 --> 00:12:49,58.027 But there, that was also the time when there were new weight loss drugs coming on the market and the people who were presenting this as an option for the American Medical Association to change the goalposts, suddenly they were making a lot of money on all the weight loss. 143 00:12:49,58.027 --> 00:12:53,108.027 So it's just to think about where this all comes from. 144 00:12:53,788.027 --> 00:13:10,418.027 The BMI is very, I think it's intoxicating because it seems very calculated, that you divide this and, but I always ask my students like, why do you think you square the height? Is there a medical reason to square someone's height? No. 145 00:13:10,418.027 --> 00:13:11,528.027 That's ridiculous. 146 00:13:11,558.027 --> 00:13:12,578.027 It's snake oil. 147 00:13:12,638.027 --> 00:13:25,588.027 Like why would you square someone's height in order to learn something about the internal mechanisms of their body? So obviously I feel very passionate about it, but it makes so many people's lives harder than they already are. 148 00:13:25,838.027 --> 00:13:36,38.027 people with certain ancestry have denser heavier bones than people of other ancestry, and those people are always more in the obese category and the overweight category. 149 00:13:36,428.027 --> 00:13:47,438.027 The idea that all of us, especially in this country, whose ancestors are from this part of the world and this part of the world and this part of the world, that we should all be in this tight little category. 150 00:13:47,708.027 --> 00:13:50,708.027 And that's the only place where health is. 151 00:13:51,68.027 --> 00:13:51,758.027 Possible. 152 00:13:51,838.027 --> 00:13:52,708.027 That's insane. 153 00:13:53,218.027 --> 00:13:53,848.027 You guys. 154 00:13:53,848.027 --> 00:13:55,408.027 This is all so insane. 155 00:13:55,988.027 --> 00:14:00,923.027 I found myself trapped within that up until maybe a couple years ago. 156 00:14:01,3.027 --> 00:14:05,423.027 I had lost like a quarter of an inch or so, maybe half an inch. 157 00:14:05,753.027 --> 00:14:11,403.027 And I've later found out that I developed a little scoliosis and I was thinking about it. 158 00:14:11,603.027 --> 00:14:20,873.027 I have to now be a different weight to fit into that BMI category when it's the exact same body, but just a little bit less. 159 00:14:20,873.027 --> 00:14:23,903.027 That makes absolutely no sense. 160 00:14:23,903.027 --> 00:14:32,613.027 And that's when I was like, okay, I really need to, and I'm getting older obviously, Maintain that Perfect BMI is impossible. 161 00:14:32,613.027 --> 00:14:38,653.027 So we are talking a lot about, what people find themselves, a part of trapped in. 162 00:14:38,653.027 --> 00:14:56,953.027 What are some other signs that someone might be trapped in this cycle? I think a lot of what we're talking about, right? Like obsession with food, obsession with, and I don't wanna bump up against your profession, but I think in terms of like the numbers, like I say to clients a lot. 163 00:14:58,318.027 --> 00:15:00,598.027 Your body doesn't know how much it weighs. 164 00:15:00,658.027 --> 00:15:03,28.027 Your body doesn't know what calories are. 165 00:15:03,88.027 --> 00:15:05,98.027 Your body doesn't, right? This is all made up. 166 00:15:05,158.027 --> 00:15:06,538.027 This is all made up. 167 00:15:06,898.027 --> 00:15:11,8.027 Not we, human minds, like all these calculations and blah, blah, blah. 168 00:15:11,218.027 --> 00:15:13,528.027 But your body again is a hunk of nature. 169 00:15:13,578.027 --> 00:15:17,778.027 there's no elf in your belly, like counting one calorie and two calories at three. 170 00:15:17,778.027 --> 00:15:19,488.027 Like your body doesn't know what that means. 171 00:15:19,968.027 --> 00:15:23,268.027 all of the obsessions with the numbers of size and it's everywhere. 172 00:15:23,268.027 --> 00:15:24,18.027 So I get it. 173 00:15:24,18.027 --> 00:15:43,28.027 And I think you probably understand too that like OCD vibrations around obsessing about this number and this size, and I wear this size and this brand and my body's this shape and the bmi, like all the numbers if you can, what I say to clients a lot, if you can do your best to release all the numbers and recognize that. 174 00:15:43,653.027 --> 00:15:47,403.027 Your body doesn't know what a number is, your body doesn't know what that is, that's all made up. 175 00:15:47,793.027 --> 00:15:49,233.027 Then that can be really helpful. 176 00:15:49,233.027 --> 00:15:51,623.027 But that's what I find that that's where people get stuck. 177 00:15:51,623.027 --> 00:16:05,173.027 Like you just said, like in this range, this completely arbitrary, nonsensical range, one thing that I say a lot is if women, if non men are specifically socialized. 178 00:16:06,298.027 --> 00:16:21,758.027 To obsess about other people's experience of us, right? Other people's experience of looking at my body and what I, mantra I give to my clients and I say to myself a lot is my internal experience of living in this body is the only thing that's important to me. 179 00:16:22,208.027 --> 00:16:25,718.027 Other people's experience of looking at my body is none of my business. 180 00:16:25,928.027 --> 00:16:32,468.027 I'm not interested, it's not relevant to me, but we're so conditioned specifically as non men. 181 00:16:32,843.027 --> 00:16:54,973.027 To obsess about other people's experience of us, and the more we can just come inside, right? Does this outfit feel good on my body? Does this part, this thing I'm eating, does it actually taste good? Do I actually enjoy it? Does this form of exercise make me feel, do I actually enjoy it? To come back into your internal experience of existence. 182 00:16:55,543.027 --> 00:17:02,378.027 That's the only thing that actually exists right at the end It won't matter if people thought you looked cute, like it won't matter. 183 00:17:02,738.027 --> 00:17:05,468.027 So coming back in, that is a big sign too. 184 00:17:05,468.027 --> 00:17:08,178.027 And that is bigger than just like eating disorders and stuff. 185 00:17:08,178.027 --> 00:17:11,688.027 But I think that can be such a huge shift to just shift that focus. 186 00:17:11,698.027 --> 00:17:15,508.027 my enjoyment of living in this body is the only thing that matters. 187 00:17:16,668.027 --> 00:17:17,358.027 Absolutely. 188 00:17:17,358.027 --> 00:17:24,613.027 I'll be honest with you, these numbers are everywhere, right? You go to the doctor's office and the charts and patients see it and then, it's always. 189 00:17:25,493.027 --> 00:17:26,103.027 there Yeah. 190 00:17:26,103.027 --> 00:17:31,868.027 So telling people, and as you were talking, I was envisioning like all these numbers floating away. 191 00:17:31,898.027 --> 00:17:38,648.027 So that you don't become encumbered by this category that we get put in. 192 00:17:39,188.027 --> 00:17:42,668.027 Which is a nonsense When people do get. 193 00:17:43,28.027 --> 00:17:47,798.027 Trapped in this cycle, right? You obviously help them through it. 194 00:17:48,18.027 --> 00:17:51,168.027 Number one is like I just said let's bring the focus inside. 195 00:17:51,258.027 --> 00:18:14,718.027 What is your experience of this, that, this food, this exercise, this person, right? And then some of the other things that I do, like a super practical tip that I love to tell people whenever I'm on a podcast or something is if you are, if you participate in social media to be so deliberate to curate your feed, make sure you have. 196 00:18:15,678.027 --> 00:18:19,848.027 Like gorgeous, incredible fat people on your feed. 197 00:18:20,298.027 --> 00:18:25,468.027 Our brains, we have a little tribal lizard brain back here and it's not real smart. 198 00:18:26,608.027 --> 00:18:27,778.027 It's our super tribal brain. 199 00:18:27,928.027 --> 00:18:32,458.027 And what happens is if we only see images of skinny white people. 200 00:18:33,178.027 --> 00:18:36,208.027 What happens is our little tribal brain is those are the good people. 201 00:18:36,298.027 --> 00:18:44,188.027 And so when we don't see, if we see somebody who's not a skinny, white, cis person, then our little tribal brain says, Nope, that's a bad person. 202 00:18:44,458.027 --> 00:18:58,58.027 So it is completely within our control to be more expansive, to be more inclusive, just from a experience of existence. 203 00:18:58,308.027 --> 00:19:13,698.027 a lot of social media is terrible and a trash fire, but there's also it's a powerful tool if you use it deliberately to get images of happy, gorgeous, incredible, powerful body people who live in all body shapes in your brain. 204 00:19:14,148.027 --> 00:19:18,348.027 It's so good because then when you look in the mirror, you're like, yeah, that's what bodies look like. 205 00:19:18,528.027 --> 00:19:19,188.027 'cause it is. 206 00:19:19,368.027 --> 00:19:23,478.027 'cause it is what bodies look like, right? Not all, but not all bodies look like. 207 00:19:23,978.027 --> 00:19:35,618.027 The, I say in my, when I teach my class, the images that were fed on the TVs or in, people don't look at magazines anymore, that showing my age, but that's 2% of the population. 208 00:19:35,738.027 --> 00:19:37,923.027 2% of the population look like that. 209 00:19:38,553.027 --> 00:19:42,183.027 Go to Walmart right now, no one looks like what nobody looks like that. 210 00:19:42,283.027 --> 00:19:46,673.027 2% of the population, they look and then, they do a lot of stuff to look like that. 211 00:19:47,393.027 --> 00:19:49,763.027 A lot of it is not healthy. 212 00:19:49,843.027 --> 00:19:53,253.027 One of my favorite body Justice activist, Virgie Tova, I love her. 213 00:19:53,253.027 --> 00:19:59,43.027 She talks about like in our culture where there's so much money involved in health. 214 00:19:59,643.027 --> 00:20:04,173.027 Things that are categorized under the umbrella of health are wild. 215 00:20:04,203.027 --> 00:20:08,883.027 Ask your great-great-great grandmother if this is a good idea, if this is a healthy thing. 216 00:20:08,883.027 --> 00:20:18,983.027 You know what I mean? And so sometimes I'd say to my clients like what would your great-great-great grandmother say about you living on iceberg lettuce for a week or something? And that sometimes that's a good measure of help. 217 00:20:20,933.027 --> 00:20:24,483.027 sometimes I think we all live in our little bubbles, right? Yeah, totally. 218 00:20:24,483.027 --> 00:20:32,863.027 And one of my friends back in Med school, I remember standing on the corner of First Avenue and 30th Street obsessing of whatever was happening. 219 00:20:33,113.027 --> 00:20:36,263.027 And he stopped me and he said, think about it. 220 00:20:36,833.027 --> 00:20:45,268.027 Does your mom know who this person is? And would she really care? And I was like no, I love that. 221 00:20:45,383.027 --> 00:20:47,258.027 And sometimes with clients who. 222 00:20:48,228.027 --> 00:20:52,308.027 I send, I do send some of my clients to like body liberation dieticians. 223 00:20:52,618.027 --> 00:21:05,778.027 But sometimes if somebody can't afford both or doesn't find a dietician they like I, sometimes I say what would your grandmother eat for breakfast? What would your, what would your, before we were taught that there's good food and bad food, and before all the food was. 224 00:21:06,153.027 --> 00:21:07,473.027 Packaged and blah, blah. 225 00:21:07,473.027 --> 00:21:12,93.027 I don't believe in good food and bad food, but what would your great-grandmother eat? What would your great-grandmother do? Yeah. 226 00:21:12,168.027 --> 00:21:20,268.027 I don't want my listeners to misunderstand because, there are times when weight can impact a person's. 227 00:21:20,608.027 --> 00:21:25,998.027 health, right? But instead of approaching that conversation as you're overweight, you're obese. 228 00:21:25,998.027 --> 00:21:34,188.027 Your blood sugars are running high, your cholesterol is running high, right? And because of your family history, you are at higher risk for. 229 00:21:34,238.027 --> 00:21:36,488.027 Heart disease, stroke, whatever it is. 230 00:21:36,858.027 --> 00:21:38,88.027 there could be hypertension. 231 00:21:38,268.027 --> 00:21:47,203.027 So I, and it's very difficult at times because it's patients at, they're like, okay, so you want me to lose 20 pounds? I'm like, no, that's not what I said. 232 00:21:47,253.027 --> 00:21:51,823.027 I said let's focus on, including more of these foods. 233 00:21:51,828.027 --> 00:21:54,838.027 And eating less of the other foods. 234 00:21:55,198.027 --> 00:21:59,68.027 And if we see a five pound reduction, great. 235 00:21:59,398.027 --> 00:22:05,8.027 We may not, but I'm more focused on some of these conditions that are developing. 236 00:22:05,278.027 --> 00:22:05,488.027 Yeah. 237 00:22:05,608.027 --> 00:22:08,38.027 But I've had to train myself because Yeah. 238 00:22:08,398.027 --> 00:22:09,778.027 In my profession. 239 00:22:10,133.027 --> 00:22:17,233.027 You approach the weight first, right? And then accuse the patients like, okay, you have hypertension and diabetes and all of that. 240 00:22:17,943.027 --> 00:22:18,3.027 Yeah. 241 00:22:18,3.027 --> 00:22:18,363.027 true. 242 00:22:18,363.027 --> 00:22:18,753.027 Yeah. 243 00:22:18,803.027 --> 00:22:19,283.027 absolutely. 244 00:22:19,283.027 --> 00:22:21,328.027 So I'm always open, yeah. 245 00:22:21,658.027 --> 00:22:30,588.027 To constructive criticism and when I say that it means how to influence me to become a better doctor. 246 00:22:30,888.027 --> 00:22:43,293.027 So if you have ways of helping doctors like myself, right? how would you guide us so we can help people instead of fat shaming them? Oh my God. 247 00:22:43,293.027 --> 00:22:46,623.027 I love that you asked this question, and I did get to speak when I worked at gw. 248 00:22:46,623.027 --> 00:22:50,313.027 I got to speak to the medical students at gw and I was like, oh my God. 249 00:22:50,313.027 --> 00:22:50,973.027 Please listen. 250 00:22:50,973.027 --> 00:22:51,243.027 Please. 251 00:22:51,663.027 --> 00:23:03,58.027 Number one I want all doctors to know the number of clients that I have had who were ashamed by a medical professional and then didn't go to the doctor for a decade. 252 00:23:03,368.027 --> 00:23:06,818.027 one woman had, she had fibroids on her uterus that were so big. 253 00:23:06,818.027 --> 00:23:10,378.027 She had to have surgery because She was shamed by I medical professional. 254 00:23:10,428.027 --> 00:23:11,538.027 So please. 255 00:23:11,598.027 --> 00:23:15,808.027 So I appreciate you asking and I want everyone to be careful because. 256 00:23:17,303.027 --> 00:23:20,3.027 Fatness is not fatness, thinness. 257 00:23:20,3.027 --> 00:23:26,603.027 It's all morally neutral, and that is not the message that fat people get on a daily basis. 258 00:23:26,633.027 --> 00:23:32,903.027 And so if there's a fat person in your doctor's office, please know that they probably have. 259 00:23:33,533.027 --> 00:23:35,573.027 Medical trauma that they're overcoming. 260 00:23:35,573.027 --> 00:23:36,533.027 Just to be there. 261 00:23:36,563.027 --> 00:23:37,433.027 Just to be present. 262 00:23:37,433.027 --> 00:23:40,643.027 And I, as a fat kid, have so much medical, I was a fat kid in the eighties. 263 00:23:40,643.027 --> 00:23:41,423.027 It was so terrible. 264 00:23:41,483.027 --> 00:23:42,743.027 But it was so awful. 265 00:23:42,743.027 --> 00:23:47,579.027 And I, so there's medical trauma that a fat person has to overcome to just show up in your office. 266 00:23:47,629.027 --> 00:23:48,919.027 It's so vulnerable. 267 00:23:49,459.027 --> 00:23:52,579.027 The most important thing I could say is to read Dr. 268 00:23:52,579.027 --> 00:23:56,789.027 Lindo Bacon's work, like the health at every size book is so incredible. 269 00:23:56,819.027 --> 00:23:58,479.027 Even their Dr. 270 00:23:58,479.027 --> 00:24:00,519.027 Lindo Bacon is Lucy Amore. 271 00:24:00,519.027 --> 00:24:07,369.027 Their very first paper that they put out called, it's Time for a Paradigm Shift Colon Health at every size. 272 00:24:07,429.027 --> 00:24:12,379.027 And what they found is if you have a patient focus on their weight. 273 00:24:13,74.027 --> 00:24:15,264.027 Their health decreases. 274 00:24:15,714.027 --> 00:24:27,174.027 If you have a patient focus on actual measures of health, like you mentioned cholesterol, you know the things that are actual measures of health, because weight is not a measure of health. 275 00:24:27,254.027 --> 00:24:30,614.027 It is correlated with measures of health, but it is not a measure of health. 276 00:24:31,94.027 --> 00:24:33,224.027 Because nobody dies of obesity. 277 00:24:33,304.027 --> 00:24:35,104.027 Obesity is not a cause of death. 278 00:24:35,524.027 --> 00:24:48,114.027 There are things that are correlated with obesity, but if you have a patient focus on how many steps you take, how many glasses of water, how many pieces of fruit, all of the things that can change somebody's health. 279 00:24:48,144.027 --> 00:24:54,384.027 Sometimes their weight decreases, sometimes their weight doesn't decrease, but always their health increases. 280 00:24:54,849.027 --> 00:24:59,889.027 And so to focus on weight always causes a decrease in actual measures of health. 281 00:25:00,69.027 --> 00:25:06,849.027 That's what I want all medical professionals to hear me say, that I will be screeching from the rooftops for the rest of my life. 282 00:25:07,539.027 --> 00:25:10,419.027 Does that make sense? Yes, it makes total sense. 283 00:25:10,539.027 --> 00:25:12,879.027 And as someone who has. 284 00:25:13,434.027 --> 00:25:16,884.027 Struggled with weight for various reasons. 285 00:25:16,884.027 --> 00:25:33,238.027 I think I'm a bit more sensitive to it myself because I would be taken aback, if any and actually, and people have talked to me, maybe not in the medical profession, but I've had, random people just make comments about my weight. 286 00:25:33,373.027 --> 00:25:36,718.027 God isn't that awful about my weight? Where I was like taken aback. 287 00:25:36,718.027 --> 00:25:42,988.027 'cause I was not even something that I was like, okay, you just decided to make a comment out of nowhere. 288 00:25:43,408.027 --> 00:25:44,98.027 That's awful. 289 00:25:44,98.027 --> 00:25:44,488.027 That's a violation. 290 00:25:45,238.027 --> 00:25:45,658.027 I would not. 291 00:25:46,453.027 --> 00:25:47,53.027 It's a violation. 292 00:25:47,53.027 --> 00:25:52,903.027 know, unless I was actively trying to attack someone, I would never, and I wouldn't do it. 293 00:25:52,953.027 --> 00:25:56,713.027 But I would never say, some of the things that people have said to me. 294 00:25:56,713.027 --> 00:25:59,773.027 So I think that has helped shape me. 295 00:26:00,83.027 --> 00:26:02,93.027 To be more sensitive. 296 00:26:02,93.027 --> 00:26:14,443.027 And I'm always seeking suggestions from other practitioners as to how I can be even more sensitive because, I see my patients and sometimes I'm like, they come in. 297 00:26:14,958.027 --> 00:26:18,858.027 And it's like defensive because they're already prepared. 298 00:26:19,148.027 --> 00:26:20,438.027 I'm eating this, I'm eating that. 299 00:26:20,488.027 --> 00:26:21,988.027 I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that. 300 00:26:21,988.027 --> 00:26:26,338.027 And I, in my mind I'm like, but I haven't even suggested that's what you're doing. 301 00:26:26,638.027 --> 00:26:28,978.027 There's already on the defense, of course. 302 00:26:29,468.027 --> 00:26:29,768.027 Dr. 303 00:26:29,768.027 --> 00:26:38,588.027 Soma cannot overstate the number of times, like I have a list of doctors that I know are safe doctors for, to send my fat clients. 304 00:26:39,533.027 --> 00:26:43,823.027 The, so in the biz, we call it a corrective emotional experience. 305 00:26:44,63.027 --> 00:27:01,713.027 When I send a fat client to a doctor who I know is going to be kind and loving and is not going to shame them, they will come back to me crying because they've never had an experience in a medical office where somebody did not shame them or somebody didn't, tell them that their body was the wrong shape. 306 00:27:01,713.027 --> 00:27:03,573.027 So I can't emphasize enough. 307 00:27:04,53.027 --> 00:27:10,943.027 Literally, God's work, if you will, go out into the world and tell people okay, I'm a little bit concerned about your cholesterol. 308 00:27:10,993.027 --> 00:27:17,983.027 We but what can we do to better your cholesterol numbers like it is? one of my heroes, her name is Lindy West. 309 00:27:17,983.027 --> 00:27:19,3.027 She wrote the book Shrill. 310 00:27:19,3.027 --> 00:27:19,693.027 She's incredible. 311 00:27:19,693.027 --> 00:27:20,323.027 She's so funny. 312 00:27:20,323.027 --> 00:27:36,233.027 She's a fat writer and brilliant author, and she talked about how, if you claim to care about fat people's health, but you don't care about the mental health or the mental effects of talking about people's bodies, you're a liar. 313 00:27:36,908.027 --> 00:27:47,458.027 I love that so much because the idea that you could shame somebody for their body shape because you're concerned about their health is that's absolutely ridiculous. 314 00:27:47,458.027 --> 00:27:48,238.027 That's not real. 315 00:27:48,268.027 --> 00:27:49,198.027 Like you can't do that. 316 00:27:49,228.027 --> 00:27:49,678.027 I have too. 317 00:27:49,678.027 --> 00:27:51,418.027 My body has been every shape. 318 00:27:51,823.027 --> 00:27:54,253.027 Literally every shape it could be in at this height. 319 00:27:54,253.027 --> 00:27:54,943.027 I was a fat kid. 320 00:27:54,943.027 --> 00:27:55,603.027 I was obese. 321 00:27:55,603.027 --> 00:27:56,473.027 I almost starved to death. 322 00:27:56,473.027 --> 00:28:03,673.027 So my body has been in every shape and the number of violations that I've experienced of people talking about my body without me asking. 323 00:28:03,883.027 --> 00:28:10,53.027 And I know it sounds explicit, but I call it a violation on purpose 'cause it's a strong word and it is a violation like. 324 00:28:10,418.027 --> 00:28:11,918.027 you don't get to talk about people's bodies. 325 00:28:11,958.027 --> 00:28:14,28.027 I emphasize that so much with all my clients. 326 00:28:14,28.027 --> 00:28:17,708.027 Anytime anybody's talked about your body without your consent, that was a violation. 327 00:28:17,918.027 --> 00:28:18,968.027 It's a violation. 328 00:28:18,998.027 --> 00:28:20,18.027 Total violation. 329 00:28:20,128.027 --> 00:28:28,193.027 Sometimes I, and this is like a Seinfeld episode where you know I think it was George who always wanted to like, say something in the moment. 330 00:28:28,418.027 --> 00:28:41,718.027 Yeah, but didn't, and yeah, to come back, but days or weeks later yeah, I almost feel I've often wondered, we live in a country that's still relatively very young and we all come from different. 331 00:28:41,993.027 --> 00:28:51,73.027 Cultures and societies and I personally know I came, my ancestors came from an agricultural society. 332 00:28:51,403.027 --> 00:28:54,823.027 They lived in a tropical country, India. 333 00:28:55,153.027 --> 00:28:58,423.027 They were people who didn't even wear shoes. 334 00:28:58,543.027 --> 00:28:59,808.027 They walked the earth. 335 00:29:00,343.027 --> 00:29:02,533.027 They plowed the earth totally. 336 00:29:02,533.027 --> 00:29:04,323.027 And my ancestors were farmers. 337 00:29:04,823.027 --> 00:29:07,493.027 They were very industrial people. 338 00:29:07,653.027 --> 00:29:10,113.027 And I don't live in that kind of country. 339 00:29:10,113.027 --> 00:29:15,98.027 I have this life blessed, but I don't have that kind of connection. 340 00:29:15,98.027 --> 00:29:17,423.027 And my diet is very different. 341 00:29:17,423.027 --> 00:29:19,328.027 My stressors are very different. 342 00:29:19,378.027 --> 00:29:21,718.027 These are all what we call epigenetics. 343 00:29:22,233.027 --> 00:29:22,473.027 Absolutely. 344 00:29:23,53.027 --> 00:29:30,403.027 This is what does influence our health and our weight as well, a thousand percent. 345 00:29:30,403.027 --> 00:29:41,743.027 And that's you asked me in the questions you sent what is liberation therapy? And I would say my definition of it is basically what you just said, that traditional psychotherapy is. 346 00:29:41,768.027 --> 00:29:48,728.027 So based on the individual, that every individual has infinite control over their mental and physical health. 347 00:29:48,728.027 --> 00:30:07,798.027 If they just try hard enough, and I just don't believe that that's just infinitely not true, right? That I can be the most healthy person on the planet in a culture that worships productivity, that worships money, that worships thinness, that worships men, that worships maleness, I can't be influenced by all of that. 348 00:30:07,798.027 --> 00:30:14,968.027 My mental and physical health, which I believe are the same thing, are not gonna just live independently of all of these things. 349 00:30:14,968.027 --> 00:30:24,128.027 And then especially with food, like we said before, I have so many clients that come and they're like, but if I just eat clean or whatever, and it's eat as many plants as you can. 350 00:30:24,128.027 --> 00:30:24,638.027 Sure. 351 00:30:24,638.027 --> 00:30:25,388.027 But know that. 352 00:30:25,693.027 --> 00:30:34,973.027 We are so powerless over so much of what we consume with our mouth, with our brain, with our ears, with our eyes, And it's not your fault. 353 00:30:35,223.027 --> 00:30:42,813.027 We don't really talk about what has happened in this country when it comes to food, and yes, there are so many. 354 00:30:44,338.027 --> 00:30:48,298.027 If you wanna call it benefits from, industrialization. 355 00:30:48,298.027 --> 00:30:55,558.027 But with that, we are e we live in a land where processed food is very high. 356 00:30:55,778.027 --> 00:31:07,738.027 I think it's become more in our conversations, but I don't think enough is necessarily being done to address that on right, on national level. 357 00:31:08,398.027 --> 00:31:09,268.027 I completely agree. 358 00:31:09,268.027 --> 00:31:17,718.027 And again, not from a place of now everybody has to eat more organic or eat this or whatever, but it's just more of a place of there's so much more powerless over. 359 00:31:17,778.027 --> 00:31:17,958.027 Yes. 360 00:31:17,958.027 --> 00:31:23,268.027 And the idea that you can change it and you can be as thin as you want, or as healthy as you want, blah, blah, blah. 361 00:31:23,268.027 --> 00:31:27,448.027 It's like it's just recognizing that like we're all doing the best we can. 362 00:31:29,97.027 --> 00:31:33,37.027 I do focus a lot on midlife and, perimenopause and menopause. 363 00:31:33,497.027 --> 00:31:52,327.027 I have a lot of women who come in and they're, and it's funny we're doing air quotes a lot, but sometimes I, and I could always tell they have this look like they're a deer caught in headlights and this statement happens more than you would like to think, but they're like, something is seriously going wrong. 364 00:31:52,807.027 --> 00:31:53,77.027 Totally. 365 00:31:53,932.027 --> 00:31:57,262.027 And I'm like, okay, we're gonna have this discussion. 366 00:31:57,712.027 --> 00:31:58,42.027 Yep. 367 00:31:58,142.027 --> 00:32:12,602.027 So what are some little pearls that you do to coach some of these women? So they're not caught in this oh my God, I'm gonna be this like fat obese woman and I don't even recognize and this is who I'm gonna be for the rest of my life. 368 00:32:12,632.027 --> 00:32:15,452.027 How do you coach them? Oh my God, I can't imagine. 369 00:32:15,452.027 --> 00:32:20,222.027 Yeah, I have these conversations and mine is the exact same conversation, Like they're like, I'm so anxious. 370 00:32:20,222.027 --> 00:32:21,2.027 I'm so angry. 371 00:32:21,2.027 --> 00:32:21,932.027 I'm so aggravated. 372 00:32:21,932.027 --> 00:32:22,862.027 I'm so agitated. 373 00:32:22,982.027 --> 00:32:24,362.027 I'm and I'm like, it's not your fault. 374 00:32:24,392.027 --> 00:32:25,52.027 It's not your fault. 375 00:32:25,82.027 --> 00:32:25,772.027 It's not your fault. 376 00:32:26,52.027 --> 00:32:32,522.027 I think the main thing that I talk about is what I said before of this is nothing's more natural than this. 377 00:32:32,582.027 --> 00:32:34,202.027 This is the most natural thing in the world. 378 00:32:34,202.027 --> 00:32:42,302.027 I'm sorry that you've been brainwashed to believe that you should look the same as you did when you were 18, when you're 48. 379 00:32:42,662.027 --> 00:32:45,572.027 That's insane, but that's insane. 380 00:32:45,692.027 --> 00:32:47,732.027 There is nothing wrong with you. 381 00:32:47,732.027 --> 00:32:50,672.027 There's nothing wrong with your body bodies. 382 00:32:50,732.027 --> 00:32:52,322.027 We, I say this a lot. 383 00:32:52,472.027 --> 00:33:04,462.027 This is something my mom used to say, you come into this world and you're squishy, and you're round and you're soft in the middle, Your body starts making eggs and you get ready to make babies with your body and your body looks a certain way. 384 00:33:04,462.027 --> 00:33:11,182.027 And then we go back to being round and soft in the middle and we're just going, and it, again, like nature knows what she's doing. 385 00:33:11,452.027 --> 00:33:19,602.027 I know our patriarchal culture is obsessed with fighting against and somehow taming or overcoming nature. 386 00:33:19,872.027 --> 00:33:20,902.027 But good luck, girl. 387 00:33:20,962.027 --> 00:33:23,302.027 That's not, it's not gonna happen. 388 00:33:23,452.027 --> 00:33:24,487.027 And the more you can. 389 00:33:26,87.027 --> 00:33:32,327.027 I think the main thing that I talk about with my clients is like you and your body are on the same team. 390 00:33:32,357.027 --> 00:33:35,477.027 I'm so sorry that you were brainwashed to fight against your body. 391 00:33:35,477.027 --> 00:33:42,527.027 I'm so sorry that you were brainwashed to believe that your body was wrong or bad, or something to be ashamed of, or something to fight against. 392 00:33:42,827.027 --> 00:33:46,397.027 But your bo, nothing is more loyal to you than your body. 393 00:33:46,902.027 --> 00:33:50,262.027 And I say to clients all day long, she's on your side. 394 00:33:50,352.027 --> 00:33:54,192.027 She's on your side, infinitely on your side. 395 00:33:54,372.027 --> 00:34:00,922.027 What's not on your side is diet culture and diet ads and rich white men who are getting richer. 396 00:34:00,922.027 --> 00:34:03,562.027 The more you hate your body though, that's the enemy. 397 00:34:03,712.027 --> 00:34:05,152.027 Your body is not the enemy. 398 00:34:05,152.027 --> 00:34:06,352.027 She's doing the best she can. 399 00:34:06,352.027 --> 00:34:10,402.027 She's always been doing the best she can and the more you can align with her. 400 00:34:10,662.027 --> 00:34:15,532.027 You can really take over the world, if you align with her and you trust her over anything. 401 00:34:15,742.027 --> 00:34:26,332.027 I can get into a whole thing about how deliberate it is that specifically women are taught to sever ourselves from our bodies to not listen to its messages, to not listen to our intuition. 402 00:34:26,332.027 --> 00:34:31,602.027 To not listen to, and diet culture and fat hatred is just a part of that whole system. 403 00:34:31,932.027 --> 00:34:33,492.027 But your body's on your side. 404 00:34:33,492.027 --> 00:34:36,432.027 And what a better time, no better time than right now to. 405 00:34:36,852.027 --> 00:34:39,672.027 Start aligning and connecting with her. 406 00:34:40,282.027 --> 00:34:47,92.027 Because you, the one thing I know is for the rest of your life, she will be there, so you might as well make friends with her. 407 00:34:47,92.027 --> 00:34:49,532.027 Now it's the only body that we have. 408 00:34:49,682.027 --> 00:34:50,372.027 Exactly. 409 00:34:50,372.027 --> 00:34:52,412.027 And she has always been on your side. 410 00:34:52,412.027 --> 00:34:58,892.027 As much as, I know in my story, I have abused her so much and she's been loyal to me the whole time. 411 00:35:01,647.027 --> 00:35:04,17.027 This was a great conversation. 412 00:35:04,17.027 --> 00:35:05,877.027 Honestly, it was fun. 413 00:35:05,877.027 --> 00:35:15,27.027 It was illuminating and I really think, I hope that women, especially women, listen to it and understand that. 414 00:35:15,522.027 --> 00:35:20,752.027 it's a very pervasive issue that we all experience. 415 00:35:21,2.027 --> 00:35:28,742.027 Whether you're classified as overweight or obese or not, that pressure of looking a certain way. 416 00:35:29,402.027 --> 00:35:29,582.027 Yeah. 417 00:35:29,582.027 --> 00:35:42,842.027 So if my listeners want to learn more about you, read more about you, where can they find you? I am Paula d Atkinson on all of the things on Facebook, on Instagram, on. 418 00:35:43,247.027 --> 00:35:43,817.027 Oh, I'm not. 419 00:35:43,817.027 --> 00:35:45,947.027 I'm PDA on TikTok. 420 00:35:46,227.027 --> 00:35:47,907.027 I have a podcast as well. 421 00:35:47,907.027 --> 00:36:00,297.027 It's called What If Nothing's Wrong with You, where my colleague and I discuss how a lot of times psychotherapy and psychotherapists convince us that things are wrong with us when perhaps you're having a completely. 422 00:36:00,357.027 --> 00:36:05,967.027 Valid reaction to capitalism and white supremacy and all of the things that we have talked about already. 423 00:36:06,157.027 --> 00:36:07,617.027 And it's a very similar vibe. 424 00:36:07,647.027 --> 00:36:10,107.027 She's also a therapist and I think it's fun and funny. 425 00:36:10,397.027 --> 00:36:15,717.027 And I'm in the middle of writing a book, so look out for my book, which will hopefully be out in, I don't know. 426 00:36:15,717.027 --> 00:36:17,727.027 I've wanted it to be out for years, so we'll see. 427 00:36:17,777.027 --> 00:36:21,347.027 But I am in the middle of writing a book, getting my book published. 428 00:36:21,347.027 --> 00:36:24,227.027 It's called Temporary Housing, Oh, fascinating. 429 00:36:24,227.027 --> 00:36:36,737.027 When will your book be available and where can we find it? That's, those are great questions, and I don't know the answer to those just yet, but my literary agent and I are working towards it, so I will keep everybody posted as soon as I know the answers to those questions. 430 00:36:36,787.027 --> 00:36:38,587.027 Thank you so much, Paula. 431 00:36:38,587.027 --> 00:36:39,757.027 This was so much fun. 432 00:36:39,757.027 --> 00:36:40,747.027 Thank you so much. 433 00:36:41,447.027 --> 00:36:45,547.027 And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast. 434 00:36:46,97.027 --> 00:36:49,887.027 Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says. 435 00:36:50,187.027 --> 00:36:53,847.027 Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.