The Superwomen Behind the Stethescope

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In this inspiring episode of Soma Says, Dr. Soma Mandal welcomes Dr. Susan Landers—retired neonatologist, author, and speaker—for a powerful conversation about the emotional complexity of working motherhood and the long road to healing from burnout.

With over 30 years of experience in neonatal intensive care, Dr. Landers opens up about her memoir, So Many Babies, which chronicles the challenges of balancing a high-stakes medical career while raising three children. Together, Dr. Soma and Dr. Landers explore the unspoken toll of maternal guilt, work-related depression, and the difficulty of asking for help.

This episode offers valuable insights for midlife women who may be redefining their identities, careers, and personal priorities. Whether you're a working mom, a healthcare professional, or simply someone seeking to reclaim your energy—this conversation is a compassionate reminder that your story matters.

Topics Discussed: – Balancing motherhood with a demanding medical career – How burnout shows up (and how to name it) – Postpartum and work-related depression in high-achieving women – The role of support systems and community – Redefining success after retirement – Empowerment and self-discovery in midlife

Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction and Disclaimer 01:06 – Meet Dr. Susan Landers 02:17 – Balancing Motherhood and Medicine 03:14 – The Challenges of Being a Working Mother 04:54 – Navigating Burnout and Mental Health 08:42 – The Importance of Support Systems 16:48 – Dealing with Working Mom Burnout 23:00 – Identifying the Problem of Burnout 23:35 – Navigating Life's Challenges 24:58 – Support Systems for Single Mothers 26:02 – Resources for Defeating Burnout 28:03 – The Importance of NICU Stories 32:24 – Balancing Career and Family 35:37 – Reflections on Retirement 43:28 – Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Guest Bio: Dr. Susan Landers is a neonatologist, author, and speaker with over three decades of experience in medicine—and just as many years navigating the challenges of working motherhood. In her memoir So Many Babies, she shares the emotional highs and lows of being both a doctor and a mother. Today, she empowers women to recognize burnout, reconnect with themselves, and write a more balanced second chapter.

📘 Learn more at www.susanlandersmd.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Dr.

(00:01):
Soma.
Just a disclaimer, this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice.
Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen.
Let's go to the show. 6 00:01:06,410.023 --> 00:01:17,30.023 Susan Landers is a neonatologist, author, and speaker with over three decades of experience in medicine—and just as many years navigating the challenges of working motherhood. 7 00:01:17,930.023 --> 00:01:22,980.023 A graduate of Auburn University and the Medical University of South Carolina, Dr. 8 00:01:22,980.023 --> 00:01:30,800.023 Landers built a distinguished career caring for critically ill newborns while also raising three children and advocating for physician wellness. 9 00:01:31,947.523 --> 00:01:45,157.523 Now retired from clinical practice, she is the author of So Many Babies: My Life Balancing a Busy Medical Career and Motherhood, a deeply honest memoir that explores the emotional highs and lows of being a doctor and a mother. 10 00:01:46,427.523 --> 00:01:48,227.523 Through her writing and speaking, Dr. 11 00:01:48,227.523 --> 00:01:58,935.023 Landers offers thoughtful insights on burnout, maternal guilt, career identity, and the complex dance of maintaining personal well-being in the face of professional demands. 12 00:02:00,92.523 --> 00:02:02,62.523 On today’s episode of Soma Says, Dr. 13 00:02:02,62.523 --> 00:02:11,252.523 Landers shares her wisdom on how women—especially in midlife—can redefine success, reclaim their energy, and embrace the power of their personal narratives. 14 00:02:17,617.523 --> 00:02:25,327.523 when you get burned out, when you get working mother burnout, you have to figure out what gives. 15 00:02:26,467.523 --> 00:02:35,637.523 Is it you? Is it the kid? Is it your job? Is it your manager? Is it your spouse? And you've got a target. 16 00:02:38,185.981 --> 00:02:43,825.981 I really admire all the work that you've done as a pediatrician. 17 00:02:43,825.981 --> 00:02:49,395.981 As a neonatologist, and obviously juggling all of that with motherhood. 18 00:02:50,775.981 --> 00:02:50,955.981 Thank you. 19 00:02:50,955.981 --> 00:02:59,415.981 there's a special, connection that I have that are women who are mothers and doctors. 20 00:02:59,415.981 --> 00:03:01,575.981 'cause we do mothering at home. 21 00:03:01,575.981 --> 00:03:05,75.981 And then it's a different type of taking care of patients. 22 00:03:05,75.981 --> 00:03:07,415.981 But it falls under that mothering. 23 00:03:07,845.981 --> 00:03:07,847.981 It does. 24 00:03:07,955.981 --> 00:03:14,315.981 Women physicians act differently than men physicians and their priorities are different. 25 00:03:14,395.981 --> 00:03:16,765.981 I was about 45. 26 00:03:17,455.981 --> 00:03:20,95.981 They had a set call schedule. 27 00:03:20,95.981 --> 00:03:24,265.981 They didn't share or trade off holidays. 28 00:03:24,265.981 --> 00:03:27,625.981 They just took their vacation when it rolled around. 29 00:03:27,625.981 --> 00:03:30,115.981 And I'm going, wait a minute guys. 30 00:03:30,205.981 --> 00:03:32,245.981 I have a husband that's a physician. 31 00:03:32,245.981 --> 00:03:36,455.981 We have to plan this together and that sort of upset them. 32 00:03:36,455.981 --> 00:03:38,375.981 And then there was this notion of. 33 00:03:39,230.981 --> 00:03:46,490.981 Coming in at seven in the morning and I said if I, if we come in at seven in the morning, I can't see my children before they go to school. 34 00:03:46,910.981 --> 00:03:57,380.981 And they went our wives, I said, I know, but I wanna put 'em on the bus and couldn't we start at eight? And so we did, and they all loved it. 35 00:03:57,935.981 --> 00:03:58,445.981 Okay. 36 00:03:58,445.981 --> 00:03:58,715.981 Yeah. 37 00:03:58,715.981 --> 00:04:01,805.981 They said, oh my God, we could see our kids at breakfast. 38 00:04:01,805.981 --> 00:04:04,625.981 I'm going, yeah, that's the whole point. 39 00:04:05,345.981 --> 00:04:12,875.981 So it was really fun to drag them into a family friendly practice. 40 00:04:13,475.981 --> 00:04:18,335.981 And then we hired three or four more women and it was just the best. 41 00:04:18,385.981 --> 00:04:21,745.981 You have this memoir called So Many Babies and you Yes. 42 00:04:21,805.981 --> 00:04:28,645.981 In your memoir you detail the challenges of raising your three children who are now not children anymore. 43 00:04:28,805.981 --> 00:04:40,660.981 They're Right, they're all grown with their own kids and working full-time in the nicu, in the neonatal ICU and when you were doing that what did you do to. 44 00:04:41,645.981 --> 00:04:54,205.981 Manage both being a good enough mom present for your children and your husband as well as, pardon my French, a kick ass physician. 45 00:04:54,630.981 --> 00:05:01,10.981 We all struggle with that, and it took me about 10 years to get to the point of realizing. 46 00:05:02,60.981 --> 00:05:03,680.981 I was a good enough mother. 47 00:05:03,740.981 --> 00:05:10,40.981 I started out wanting to be perfect, and you can't do that when you have an ICU job or a hospital-based job. 48 00:05:10,410.981 --> 00:05:16,170.981 And I learned all that the hard way because I felt like I was missing out on certain things. 49 00:05:17,25.981 --> 00:05:18,555.981 I had great nannies. 50 00:05:18,585.981 --> 00:05:19,905.981 I was really lucky. 51 00:05:19,905.981 --> 00:05:34,930.981 I would have somebody for two years or three years and they would really be into our family and they would do things my way and bring the kids up to meet me at for certain things or meet me at the orthodontist. 52 00:05:35,170.981 --> 00:05:37,270.981 And so I had people that. 53 00:05:37,570.981 --> 00:05:40,780.981 Cared about my being with the kids. 54 00:05:41,80.981 --> 00:05:41,110.981 Okay. 55 00:05:41,290.981 --> 00:05:47,500.981 And I had a husband that was not scared to do childcare because he is a pediatric nephrologist. 56 00:05:47,650.981 --> 00:05:53,860.981 Okay? the only time he ever freaked out was when he couldn't read the dose of acetaminophen. 57 00:05:54,315.981 --> 00:05:58,545.981 When somebody had a fever because he didn't have readers yet. 58 00:05:58,545.981 --> 00:05:59,265.981 He paged me. 59 00:05:59,595.981 --> 00:06:00,675.981 I've got an emergency. 60 00:06:00,675.981 --> 00:06:04,785.981 I said, what in the world? He said, what's the Tylenol dose? And I said it's duh da duh. 61 00:06:05,385.981 --> 00:06:07,455.981 And he said Anne has 104 fever. 62 00:06:07,455.981 --> 00:06:09,975.981 And I said, put her in the tub and give her some Tylenol. 63 00:06:09,975.981 --> 00:06:11,145.981 I can't read the dose. 64 00:06:11,145.981 --> 00:06:11,835.981 I went okay. 65 00:06:12,435.981 --> 00:06:13,455.981 It was hilarious. 66 00:06:13,785.981 --> 00:06:15,885.981 But he was always helpful. 67 00:06:15,915.981 --> 00:06:18,645.981 And so if I worked weekends, he would be off. 68 00:06:19,570.981 --> 00:06:20,590.981 And vice versa. 69 00:06:20,620.981 --> 00:06:27,580.981 Now, that wasn't very good for our marriage, but it was really good for keeping the family going and the kids taken care of. 70 00:06:28,300.981 --> 00:06:39,225.981 I think the real answer is each of us has to figure out how much we wanna work, how much perfectionism we wanna bring to our jobs. 71 00:06:40,375.981 --> 00:06:45,205.981 And whether or not that gives us enough time at home to be a mom. 72 00:06:45,685.981 --> 00:06:48,915.981 And I've waxed and waned throughout my career. 73 00:06:48,915.981 --> 00:06:55,515.981 At first, I was doing too much trying to get promoted, and then I had a job I didn't so much. 74 00:06:55,515.981 --> 00:06:58,215.981 So I pulled back and spent more time with the kids. 75 00:06:58,665.981 --> 00:07:20,555.981 And then I had a job I really liked a lot, and the kids were middle school and high school and they didn't need me as much I think it changes throughout your career and it changes based on your children's ages and what they need from you, but we never, ever can give enough time to our kids in our marriage. 76 00:07:20,585.981 --> 00:07:26,525.981 I just think medicine is one of those professions that just. 77 00:07:27,65.981 --> 00:07:29,135.981 Want so much from us. 78 00:07:29,705.981 --> 00:07:33,725.981 Now I have a couple of young pediatrician friends who work three days a week. 79 00:07:33,760.981 --> 00:07:35,375.981 They have a great practice. 80 00:07:35,795.981 --> 00:07:38,525.981 They love being moms four days a week. 81 00:07:39,215.981 --> 00:07:44,765.981 And I said to them, why'd you go to medical school and do all this training just to work part-time? And they said. 82 00:07:45,315.981 --> 00:07:49,215.981 I just didn't wanna be a full-time doctor. 83 00:07:49,215.981 --> 00:07:53,325.981 I wanted to be equal measure mom, and they're very happy. 84 00:07:54,870.981 --> 00:08:04,200.981 But I couldn't do that or didn't wanna do that with my career because in the ICU, you have to be there at least 10 or 12 days in a row. 85 00:08:04,770.981 --> 00:08:06,60.981 You have to take night calls. 86 00:08:06,60.981 --> 00:08:10,380.981 So I think it really varies with each working mother. 87 00:08:11,310.981 --> 00:08:17,640.981 I think each of us has to figure out that we work because we like what we do. 88 00:08:18,480.981 --> 00:08:28,560.981 And that makes us a better person and a better mother, and we need to have enough time to be a good enough mother and a good enough partner or wife. 89 00:08:29,200.981 --> 00:08:36,70.981 I think you'll find as you get older and your kids get older, that your definition's gonna change. 90 00:08:36,70.981 --> 00:08:40,750.981 It's gonna morph just a little bit depending on where you are and where they are. 91 00:08:42,430.981 --> 00:09:00,410.981 One of the things that I give you a lot of courage about, discussing this, 'cause not a lot of women feel comfortable sharing their mental health, but you are very open in talking about a major depressive episode after having a baby at 40. 92 00:09:00,775.981 --> 00:09:22,95.981 How did this shape your experience? Both as a mother as well as a doctor, and did it change anything for you going forward? I have always felt that mental illness Got a bad rap and that there was too much stigma associated with it. 93 00:09:22,785.981 --> 00:09:30,175.981 And I'm not quite sure where that came from except I have a history of child abuse in my family. 94 00:09:30,175.981 --> 00:09:33,965.981 My father was very physically and verbally abusive. 95 00:09:34,15.981 --> 00:09:38,275.981 And so I'd done quite a bit of reading about PTSD and traumatic. 96 00:09:39,155.981 --> 00:09:56,15.981 childhood Now, I wrote this book when I retired and I had that episode of Major Depression, whether it was postpartum depression or not, we can argue about, but it was after the birth of my third child. 97 00:09:56,15.981 --> 00:10:13,645.981 I was 41 years old I wanted to be honest about how difficult that was to find a therapist to get the help I needed to change my schedule, To recognize I had a job that I hated. 98 00:10:14,65.981 --> 00:10:25,15.981 My husband was very happy and his job, and that made it all the worse because he was doing all these things he wanted to do as a division chief and a department co-chair. 99 00:10:25,595.981 --> 00:10:27,125.981 I was just struggling. 100 00:10:27,125.981 --> 00:10:35,645.981 So whether it was postpartum or whether it was major depression because I was so unhappy, it's really not relevant. 101 00:10:35,645.981 --> 00:10:46,85.981 What's relevant is that it knocked me on my butt and I feel like it happens to a fair number of professional women. 102 00:10:46,535.981 --> 00:10:50,615.981 I just don't think everybody zooms through a professional. 103 00:10:51,455.981 --> 00:10:58,535.981 Lifestyle with two or three kids and a marriage and does it easily. 104 00:10:58,535.981 --> 00:11:01,235.981 It's just not what women do. 105 00:11:01,235.981 --> 00:11:06,575.981 And maybe I was too sensitive, but I did get very depressed. 106 00:11:06,575.981 --> 00:11:08,435.981 I was physically depressed. 107 00:11:08,435.981 --> 00:11:09,365.981 I couldn't sleep. 108 00:11:09,665.981 --> 00:11:10,445.981 I couldn't eat. 109 00:11:10,895.981 --> 00:11:12,215.981 I kept on working. 110 00:11:12,215.981 --> 00:11:20,555.981 Can you believe that? I did pull back some call hours during that period, but I had a. 111 00:11:21,365.981 --> 00:11:24,575.981 I had a division chief who was just ruthless. 112 00:11:24,575.981 --> 00:11:32,135.981 He just wanted people to round 30 days in a row, and I said, this is just like being on a submarine. 113 00:11:32,135.981 --> 00:11:38,15.981 You just can't leave your family 30 days in a row and go take care of a practice. 114 00:11:38,15.981 --> 00:11:40,85.981 You've got to have some downtime. 115 00:11:40,575.981 --> 00:11:41,865.981 We argued about that. 116 00:11:42,435.981 --> 00:11:47,85.981 So I felt like the issues that I dealt with in my forties. 117 00:11:47,550.981 --> 00:11:48,810.981 Are still around. 118 00:11:49,440.981 --> 00:11:54,480.981 I think that moms are being asked to do things that dads are not. 119 00:11:55,440.981 --> 00:11:55,770.981 Yes. 120 00:11:55,820.981 --> 00:12:01,910.981 I think that we work way more managing our households than they do. 121 00:12:02,600.981 --> 00:12:07,40.981 We worry way more about our children than they do. 122 00:12:07,70.981 --> 00:12:11,960.981 They love the kids and they'll help us if we ask 'em, but they're not thinking about. 123 00:12:12,465.981 --> 00:12:19,485.981 Who needs shots at the pediatrician and who needs cookies for the PTA thing. 124 00:12:19,755.981 --> 00:12:21,255.981 They just don't do that. 125 00:12:21,255.981 --> 00:12:31,395.981 And so we carry around all of this burden and I let mine accumulate and suffocate me, and I became depressed. 126 00:12:31,725.981 --> 00:12:37,635.981 And whether that was burnout or major depression or a little bit of both, it doesn't really matter because. 127 00:12:38,630.981 --> 00:12:54,350.981 What I had to do was figure out how to recover, and a friend of mine who was a pediatric ICU doc had a good friend who was a shrink and she recommended me to this shrink, and he and I worked together. 128 00:12:55,100.981 --> 00:12:58,160.981 I'll never forget, you'll love this story, Soma. 129 00:12:58,730.981 --> 00:13:00,530.981 He said, describe to me your life. 130 00:13:00,530.981 --> 00:13:03,830.981 And I said, this was several sessions in, I said, okay. 131 00:13:03,890.981 --> 00:13:15,170.981 You know that guy on the stage that spins, sticks and plates on top? And he runs around on the stage and he has more plates spinning and more sticks spinning. 132 00:13:15,170.981 --> 00:13:19,310.981 And his goal is to keep all of the plates spinning. 133 00:13:19,940.981 --> 00:13:21,410.981 Nothing can fall. 134 00:13:21,440.981 --> 00:13:23,930.981 And when it wobbles, you run over and you spin it. 135 00:13:24,710.981 --> 00:13:25,520.981 That's me. 136 00:13:25,520.981 --> 00:13:26,570.981 That's my life. 137 00:13:26,975.981 --> 00:13:29,525.981 He said, he laughed. 138 00:13:29,765.981 --> 00:13:33,65.981 I said, what? What is funny about that? That is not funny. 139 00:13:33,635.981 --> 00:13:44,645.981 He said, why don't you take down some of the plates? And it was really an epiphany because I said, oh my God, this is within my own control. 140 00:13:45,665.981 --> 00:13:48,605.981 And we set up with his help. 141 00:13:48,605.981 --> 00:13:52,715.981 I set up a list of priorities in my mind, I can't remember if we put it on paper. 142 00:13:52,765.981 --> 00:14:03,925.981 And of course, child one, two, and three and husband were at the top of the list and then was job and then was friendships and hobbies and exercise. 143 00:14:03,925.981 --> 00:14:14,275.981 And anyway, I had to force myself to make every research paper perfect, make every presentation perfect. 144 00:14:14,980.981 --> 00:14:18,870.981 Volunteer to do extra teaching for the residents. 145 00:14:19,200.981 --> 00:14:23,910.981 Use your free time to work on some promotion package. 146 00:14:24,150.981 --> 00:14:50,120.981 I had to force myself to let go of things that I had previously thought were important because when I looked at the whole big picture, they weren't that important as I pulled away the low priority things and concentrated on the high priority things, and I got a new job we decided to move to a new city for jobs that we both liked. 147 00:14:50,855.981 --> 00:14:53,15.981 Everything improved. 148 00:14:53,75.981 --> 00:14:53,135.981 Yeah. 149 00:14:53,255.981 --> 00:14:57,5.981 I improved, my family improved our, my marriage improved. 150 00:14:57,395.981 --> 00:15:07,745.981 So it was the, to answer your question, it was, I wanted to share that process because I truly believe that other women go through that. 151 00:15:09,215.981 --> 00:15:09,725.981 Definitely. 152 00:15:09,725.981 --> 00:15:10,115.981 They must. 153 00:15:10,115.981 --> 00:15:10,415.981 Yeah. 154 00:15:10,990.981 --> 00:15:12,400.981 And of course they do. 155 00:15:12,400.981 --> 00:15:19,220.981 And a lot of us are, and it's what we call high functioning anxiety or depression. 156 00:15:20,30.981 --> 00:15:28,160.981 And so you're still working and you're still doing, God knows how many different things, but you are totally burnt out. 157 00:15:28,210.981 --> 00:15:37,760.981 It was just either a week ago or maybe two weeks ago where I told my husband, I was like, I'm gonna give myself the summer off from the podcast. 158 00:15:38,300.981 --> 00:15:40,190.981 And his response was, you are. 159 00:15:40,500.981 --> 00:15:46,700.981 I asked, I said, is your response that you are disappointed that I'm gonna not do the podcast or. 160 00:15:47,520.981 --> 00:15:52,590.981 Are you surprised? He said, I'm surprised because you're giving yourself some time off. 161 00:15:53,40.981 --> 00:15:53,130.981 Yeah. 162 00:15:53,160.981 --> 00:16:01,200.981 And I was like, by the way there's, I can still do some light, light things for the podcast and not have it be overwhelming at times. 163 00:16:01,510.981 --> 00:16:05,930.981 And not let it become a thing where it's more exhausting than enjoyable. 164 00:16:07,480.981 --> 00:16:08,220.981 So good for you. 165 00:16:08,815.981 --> 00:16:09,795.981 For Good for you. 166 00:16:09,845.981 --> 00:16:18,965.981 And good for him for saying that He was a little surprised because he's seen you being a perfectionistic. 167 00:16:20,195.981 --> 00:16:29,375.981 Woman physician who has a family and a marriage and you wanna do everything really well, maybe not perfectly, but really well. 168 00:16:29,405.981 --> 00:16:31,145.981 'cause that's what we do. 169 00:16:31,745.981 --> 00:16:33,695.981 We do things really well. 170 00:16:33,695.981 --> 00:16:36,605.981 We learn that as little medical students. 171 00:16:36,620.981 --> 00:16:36,710.981 Yes. 172 00:16:36,980.981 --> 00:16:38,670.981 And that's our vibe. 173 00:16:38,740.981 --> 00:16:43,50.981 We serve others, we learn things and we complete task. 174 00:16:43,110.981 --> 00:16:44,580.981 And that's what we do. 175 00:16:44,940.981 --> 00:16:47,520.981 And it's really different than what men do. 176 00:16:47,730.981 --> 00:16:48,570.981 It's different. 177 00:16:48,840.981 --> 00:17:03,495.981 So you and I are both doctors and I've been an internist for 25 years now and counting you've been a physician for a long time, it sounds like we've both been experienced with working mom burnout. 178 00:17:03,500.981 --> 00:17:16,170.981 For those who may not be in touch with how that looks like or feels can we at least share our experiences on what that looked like for you? Sure. 179 00:17:16,560.981 --> 00:17:18,480.981 I had it twice in my life. 180 00:17:18,510.981 --> 00:17:25,690.981 If that postpartum episode was partially burnout I think it was not just depression. 181 00:17:26,350.981 --> 00:17:31,360.981 Then I had it again when I was 60 and I had a very challenging teenager. 182 00:17:31,690.981 --> 00:17:34,960.981 So here's how it starts when it's working. 183 00:17:34,960.981 --> 00:17:36,40.981 Mom burnout. 184 00:17:37,15.981 --> 00:17:41,395.981 Something in the family sets you off. 185 00:17:42,175.981 --> 00:17:46,495.981 A difficult child, a special needs child, a challenging teenager. 186 00:17:46,525.981 --> 00:17:49,495.981 Your husband has a great job and your job sucks. 187 00:17:50,155.981 --> 00:17:51,325.981 You hate your manager. 188 00:17:51,325.981 --> 00:17:53,935.981 You hate your boss, something. 189 00:17:54,685.981 --> 00:18:02,95.981 Triggers this inability to be all the things you wanna be to your children and your family. 190 00:18:02,845.981 --> 00:18:09,535.981 And I've talked to lots of moms who will cry and confess, I just can't take care of this kid anymore. 191 00:18:09,535.981 --> 00:18:11,35.981 He is just too much for me. 192 00:18:11,125.981 --> 00:18:19,525.981 And when I was 60 and my youngest was 16, she was the most difficult teenager and I was. 193 00:18:20,695.981 --> 00:18:31,315.981 Terrified of where she was going and what she was going through, it was tattoos and car wrecks and skipping school, and I didn't know how to handle her and I didn't know how to help her. 194 00:18:31,645.981 --> 00:18:36,535.981 And she would push my buttons and we would fight, and then my husband would get on in on it. 195 00:18:36,535.981 --> 00:18:41,905.981 It was just a nightmare, and so I think my job was going okay then. 196 00:18:42,610.981 --> 00:18:59,410.981 I probably didn't do a very good job, but I worked, but I've spent so much time feeling like a bad mother, working mom burnout for whatever reason you get, it makes you feel like a bad mother either. 197 00:18:59,410.981 --> 00:19:06,625.981 Your job is an influence a mortgage, financial issues a difficult child. 198 00:19:07,180.981 --> 00:19:13,900.981 A marriage breaking up, whatever it is, it makes you feel like a bad mother. 199 00:19:14,110.981 --> 00:19:16,540.981 Like you cannot take care of your family. 200 00:19:17,290.981 --> 00:19:20,620.981 And so it permeates everything about your whole life, I think. 201 00:19:20,650.981 --> 00:19:23,530.981 'cause that's the way women think about their families. 202 00:19:24,220.981 --> 00:19:26,380.981 You have the same symptoms as depression. 203 00:19:27,250.981 --> 00:19:33,940.981 It affects your eating, it affects your sleeping, it affects your ability to focus at work. 204 00:19:34,270.981 --> 00:19:38,740.981 It affects your inability to get help from your friends. 205 00:19:39,70.981 --> 00:19:41,410.981 You tend to wall yourself off. 206 00:19:41,410.981 --> 00:19:46,60.981 I didn't call my friends and say, what do I do with this kid? She's driving me crazy. 207 00:19:46,360.981 --> 00:19:52,140.981 I did call a psychiatrist and said, I need to work with you because I don't know how to handle this teenager. 208 00:19:52,735.981 --> 00:19:53,995.981 You feel like a bad mother. 209 00:19:53,995.981 --> 00:20:00,655.981 You don't eat right, you don't sleep, you fuss, you fight, you yell at your children, you yell at your spouse. 210 00:20:01,435.981 --> 00:20:06,175.981 You know that something has triggered you, but you may not be able to put your finger on it. 211 00:20:07,45.981 --> 00:20:10,855.981 Instead of calling a friend and saying, I am miserable. 212 00:20:10,855.981 --> 00:20:19,945.981 Help me, what do I do? We try to tough it alone or work it out with our spouse, and he's going, I only hear you yelling. 213 00:20:19,945.981 --> 00:20:22,525.981 I don't hear you trying to do anything better. 214 00:20:23,65.981 --> 00:20:37,385.981 So I think when you know you have it, or if you think you have it, the very first thing you should do is call a support person best friend and say, I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. 215 00:20:37,385.981 --> 00:20:47,405.981 Can I talk to you about this? Because I think that people that love us and know us can say, yeah, you really have been acting like that. 216 00:20:47,405.981 --> 00:20:50,75.981 And yeah, she really is driving you crazy. 217 00:20:50,75.981 --> 00:20:52,145.981 And yeah, this is a bad situation. 218 00:20:52,145.981 --> 00:20:54,45.981 What are you gonna do about it? And they. 219 00:20:54,690.981 --> 00:20:55,980.981 Talk you through it. 220 00:20:56,610.981 --> 00:21:03,960.981 So the support system aspect of recovery for working mother burnout is just crucial. 221 00:21:04,260.981 --> 00:21:08,670.981 Yes, psychotherapy's important, but not everybody can afford that. 222 00:21:08,700.981 --> 00:21:10,740.981 But everybody has a best friend. 223 00:21:10,740.981 --> 00:21:13,500.981 Everybody has a group of colleagues at work. 224 00:21:14,160.981 --> 00:21:16,170.981 Everybody has a neighborhood. 225 00:21:16,635.981 --> 00:21:24,405.981 Mom group that they like, or a school mom group and who really are going through the same things. 226 00:21:24,945.981 --> 00:21:32,775.981 The more I learn about working mom burnout, the more I hear it's prevalent. 227 00:21:33,345.981 --> 00:21:35,535.981 We are all dealing with it. 228 00:21:35,955.981 --> 00:21:38,955.981 We are all struggling to do too much. 229 00:21:40,80.981 --> 00:21:49,560.981 And we've taken on this huge emotional load and we all have financial issues and we're all borderline intensive parents. 230 00:21:50,40.981 --> 00:21:59,40.981 I don't want to call it helicopter parents, but we are, I mean we're trying to get away from that but we've been intensive parents 'cause we want our children to succeed. 231 00:21:59,820.981 --> 00:22:01,680.981 And it's just too much. 232 00:22:02,40.981 --> 00:22:10,650.981 And so when you get burned out, when you get working mother burnout, you have to figure out what gives. 233 00:22:11,790.981 --> 00:22:20,960.981 Is it you? Is it the kid? Is it your job? Is it your manager? Is it your spouse? And you've got a target. 234 00:22:20,960.981 --> 00:22:36,630.981 What tipped you over the edge? And agree to work on that, right? If you have a special needs kid and you just can't do it anymore, you're going to have to hire somebody to come in and take care of that child one day a week or two days a week. 235 00:22:36,660.981 --> 00:22:39,350.981 Or if you're taking care of elderly parents. 236 00:22:39,650.981 --> 00:22:41,240.981 I went through this at age 65. 237 00:22:42,395.981 --> 00:22:44,795.981 I thought I was gonna drive myself crazy. 238 00:22:44,795.981 --> 00:22:52,895.981 They were 94 and 97 and I was doing their finances and paying their caregivers, and I said, oh, this is way too much. 239 00:22:52,895.981 --> 00:22:53,555.981 Way too much. 240 00:22:53,555.981 --> 00:22:57,65.981 And I had to hire somebody to do that for me. 241 00:22:57,115.981 --> 00:23:00,415.981 So we always just bite off more than we can chew. 242 00:23:00,565.981 --> 00:23:03,565.981 And when we bite off more than we can chew. 243 00:23:04,240.981 --> 00:23:06,940.981 We have to say, wait, that's the problem. 244 00:23:07,150.981 --> 00:23:09,730.981 That's what pushed me over the edge. 245 00:23:10,270.981 --> 00:23:17,770.981 You may need a different job, you may need to talk to a colleague at work about changing jobs. 246 00:23:17,770.981 --> 00:23:22,510.981 You may need to talk with your husband about couples therapy. 247 00:23:22,720.981 --> 00:23:28,690.981 Yeah, there's so many different possibilities, but working mom burnout is this huge umbrella. 248 00:23:29,740.981 --> 00:23:34,990.981 That we allow ourselves to climb under because we're sinking. 249 00:23:35,420.981 --> 00:23:38,30.981 sometimes life just happens. 250 00:23:38,240.981 --> 00:23:38,450.981 Yes. 251 00:23:39,170.981 --> 00:23:51,520.981 And you're, you are the only person, otherwise you have that parent who won't be taken care of, and then you'll have to be living with the guilt of them being in a place that may not be the best. 252 00:23:52,150.981 --> 00:23:52,720.981 For them. 253 00:23:52,910.981 --> 00:23:56,430.981 I'm talking nursing home or, Other type of living situation. 254 00:23:56,480.981 --> 00:24:05,10.981 So there, there are certain things that sometimes we don't have a choice of, but I think the biggest part of it is for women and. 255 00:24:05,260.981 --> 00:24:13,90.981 It will happen at a certain point in our life where we have to decide what the priorities are. 256 00:24:13,540.981 --> 00:24:13,870.981 Yeah. 257 00:24:13,870.981 --> 00:24:16,990.981 And that can often take some time. 258 00:24:16,990.981 --> 00:24:19,600.981 It doesn't always happen, no. 259 00:24:19,610.981 --> 00:24:20,510.981 It takes weeks. 260 00:24:20,510.981 --> 00:24:20,600.981 Yes. 261 00:24:20,600.981 --> 00:24:24,830.981 And even if you list everything and you can take all your plates and identify 'em. 262 00:24:25,580.981 --> 00:24:27,950.981 It's tough to make those decisions. 263 00:24:27,950.981 --> 00:24:33,320.981 So you may have to pull back at work because you're the only person taking care of your parents. 264 00:24:33,710.981 --> 00:24:50,520.981 Or you may have to change jobs for a better schedule because you've gotta go into therapy with your husband, right? Or you need to get your daughter to the psychotherapist and y'all do mother daughter stuff because it's important and you've gotta simply. 265 00:24:51,210.981 --> 00:24:53,880.981 Look at what your choices are. 266 00:24:55,125.981 --> 00:24:58,455.981 With some notion of what pushed you over the edge. 267 00:24:58,965.981 --> 00:25:01,215.981 I don't know how single mothers do it. 268 00:25:01,245.981 --> 00:25:02,475.981 I just don't. 269 00:25:02,525.981 --> 00:25:07,745.981 I guess they have families that really support them and friends that really support them. 270 00:25:08,255.981 --> 00:25:16,415.981 I had a good friend support system, but I never got much help from my mother or mother-in-law, but single women you. 271 00:25:16,795.981 --> 00:25:19,945.981 You have got to get a helper. 272 00:25:20,215.981 --> 00:25:20,305.981 Yeah. 273 00:25:20,305.981 --> 00:25:28,395.981 You've got to get somebody to talk to and somebody to bounce ideas off of and it just is hard. 274 00:25:28,475.981 --> 00:25:29,45.981 It's over. 275 00:25:29,105.981 --> 00:25:34,775.981 I think it at times it's, I have patience and all I let them do, and they're single moms. 276 00:25:34,775.981 --> 00:25:41,585.981 All I let them do, the best thing I can do is just listen to them and let them cry in my exam room. 277 00:25:42,35.981 --> 00:25:42,755.981 Oh. 278 00:25:43,660.981 --> 00:25:53,590.981 Because I'm like can this person help out? Can do you have the funds to hire this type of person? And a lot of times they don't even have the time 'cause they have two or three jobs. 279 00:25:53,640.981 --> 00:26:01,510.981 And they don't even have time to talk to that friend or the resources to hire another helping hand. 280 00:26:01,560.981 --> 00:26:02,40.981 Wow. 281 00:26:02,100.981 --> 00:26:05,100.981 So you've developed resources for women. 282 00:26:05,150.981 --> 00:26:08,20.981 Including the, defeating burnout guide. 283 00:26:08,540.981 --> 00:26:15,705.981 So tell us about that and how have they been received by women who read them and look to you for support. 284 00:26:16,730.981 --> 00:26:17,240.981 Thanks. 285 00:26:17,270.981 --> 00:26:20,810.981 I have a website, susan landers md.com, 286 00:26:21,410.981 --> 00:26:26,60.981 and I wrote, I started out after I wrote my memoir, so many babies. 287 00:26:26,150.981 --> 00:26:37,285.981 I wrote blog postings about things that interested me, not just working mother burnout, gun violence and childhood vaccinations and, regular pediatrician kind of stuff. 288 00:26:37,625.981 --> 00:26:40,265.981 I got so many questions about. 289 00:26:40,865.981 --> 00:26:45,395.981 Identifying burnout strategies to recover from burnout. 290 00:26:46,655.981 --> 00:27:04,195.981 Ways that really work in your life that I said if I have all this knowledge about how to do this with two experiences myself, I wanted to write a book and it wasn't a long book, so I made it an ebook, and I've tried to sell it on my website. 291 00:27:04,550.981 --> 00:27:07,250.981 It's been moderately successful. 292 00:27:07,780.981 --> 00:27:17,980.981 Several people have told me it needs to be on Amazon and it needs to be published by a publishing house, and those things may occur. 293 00:27:18,10.981 --> 00:27:30,910.981 I'm not sure yet if I've got enough energy to do all that, but it was my effort to put my experience and my advice into one place where people could. 294 00:27:31,155.981 --> 00:27:33,415.981 Grab it and it's, 15 bucks. 295 00:27:33,415.981 --> 00:27:37,765.981 It's not expensive and I've gotten good feedback. 296 00:27:38,305.981 --> 00:27:47,35.981 It also stimulated me, Soma, to begin to write a newsletter on Substack and I have a newsletter called Moms Matter. 297 00:27:47,740.981 --> 00:27:49,660.981 That's been pretty successful. 298 00:27:49,660.981 --> 00:27:50,470.981 I've enjoyed that. 299 00:27:50,470.981 --> 00:27:58,60.981 I, again, I just write about things that I'm interested in, things in the news, things that moms are dealing with. 300 00:27:58,90.981 --> 00:28:03,520.981 I tell stories from my own motherhood journey about my own kids. 301 00:28:03,570.981 --> 00:28:15,540.981 I'll have to tell you, my 34 years in the NICU introduced me to so many parents, especially the moms who were so brave, so inspiring. 302 00:28:15,550.981 --> 00:28:23,980.981 Whether they had preemie triplets or baby with heart disease, or a baby with overwhelming infection, or a baby that needed dialysis. 303 00:28:23,980.981 --> 00:28:27,220.981 There were so many situations where moms. 304 00:28:27,520.981 --> 00:28:48,430.981 Were adrift and scared to death because they had a sick child, and I got to see them step up to the plate in a way that they were there for their child, they were there for the NICU staff, they helped their kid through it. 305 00:28:48,430.981 --> 00:28:52,120.981 And whether we lost the child or whether they survived. 306 00:28:53,110.981 --> 00:29:08,840.981 I learned a lot from them about, how important it is to have a date night with your husband, how important it is to let family members and friends bring you food, help you out, do your laundry, things like that. 307 00:29:08,890.981 --> 00:29:22,450.981 I tell the stories of those NICU moms in Moms matter like I did in my book, because I think that's inspiring for other mothers to know that you can be thrown into a horrible situation. 308 00:29:22,840.981 --> 00:29:28,930.981 Your child is sick, your pregnancy has gone awry, and you did not expect this. 309 00:29:29,590.981 --> 00:29:30,520.981 And then they. 310 00:29:31,285.981 --> 00:29:39,265.981 They meet the challenge, they find the resilience that they need to be strong. 311 00:29:39,345.981 --> 00:29:41,750.981 Get through it learn how to. 312 00:29:42,415.981 --> 00:29:46,735.981 Take help from other people, learn how to depend on their spouse. 313 00:29:46,735.981 --> 00:29:53,755.981 I mean there are just so many combinations and I thought telling those stories would be helpful to other women a absolutely. 314 00:29:53,755.981 --> 00:29:58,735.981 I think, when we are able to understand that we're not in it alone. 315 00:29:58,865.981 --> 00:30:05,315.981 I think those stories probably give people comfort and also. 316 00:30:06,60.981 --> 00:30:13,735.981 Let those women realize that courage can be manifested in so many ways, Yes, it can. 317 00:30:14,705.981 --> 00:30:32,305.981 Having been and not myself, but having had a NICU baby and not expecting to be in that situation, you forget the strength that you had to muster up to be able to get through that situation. 318 00:30:32,410.981 --> 00:30:32,890.981 Yes. 319 00:30:33,220.981 --> 00:30:37,560.981 Oh, anything that concerns pregnancy and childbirth and having a. 320 00:30:37,965.981 --> 00:30:38,805.981 A baby. 321 00:30:38,955.981 --> 00:30:47,715.981 All of that is just one of the most wonderful and fraught time periods in our life. 322 00:30:48,85.981 --> 00:30:50,245.981 And some women struggle to get there. 323 00:30:50,245.981 --> 00:30:51,925.981 They're struggling with infertility. 324 00:30:51,955.981 --> 00:31:10,35.981 They wanna be a mother so desperately and other women are dealing with, repeated losses, miscarriages, or a stillbirth, but it's, those traumas are almost universal because they pull at our heartstrings in a way that teach us. 325 00:31:11,370.981 --> 00:31:17,550.981 That we can be a mother, we can love and care for our child. 326 00:31:17,550.981 --> 00:31:35,550.981 There's nothing like having a sick child, whether it's a baby or a teenager, that brings out the real mother in you because you just want to take care of them more than anything else and be there and I think that experience is so traumatic. 327 00:31:36,390.981 --> 00:31:39,600.981 And we all face it in different ways. 328 00:31:39,990.981 --> 00:31:45,750.981 I was in bed with my first one in preterm labor for 10 weeks in the hospital. 329 00:31:46,170.981 --> 00:32:01,650.981 I was terrified, a brand new neonatologist, and my partners were making fun of me saying, oh God, who's gonna take care of her baby when she has a preemie? And I was terrified, and he wasn't born until 35 weeks. 330 00:32:01,700.981 --> 00:32:07,70.981 I remember during those 10 weeks thinking I'm the lousiest mother on the planet. 331 00:32:07,70.981 --> 00:32:08,330.981 Here I am a physician. 332 00:32:08,330.981 --> 00:32:10,460.981 I can't even have a baby correctly. 333 00:32:10,940.981 --> 00:32:22,215.981 And I think we all deal with those kind of raw, basic, motherhood feelings in similar ways we do. 334 00:32:24,365.981 --> 00:32:35,215.981 Knowing what you know now, if you had to talk to your younger self what would you tell yourself? I would tell myself to try to work less. 335 00:32:36,640.981 --> 00:32:48,430.981 To try to achieve less, to recognize that it's enough to see patients and to be a good doctor and to contribute, whether it's your hospital or your med school faculty, whatever. 336 00:32:49,120.981 --> 00:32:56,470.981 But that I would tell myself that I did not need to be the best at everything I tried to do. 337 00:32:57,280.981 --> 00:33:01,930.981 I was always pushing myself and I wish I hadn't because. 338 00:33:02,800.981 --> 00:33:10,480.981 When you push yourself, you stay that extra hour or two at work to finish what it is you wanna get done. 339 00:33:11,200.981 --> 00:33:15,130.981 And then you're short changing time at home with your family. 340 00:33:15,130.981 --> 00:33:34,540.981 So it would clearly be work less hours, take on fewer projects be a good enough doctor, like you wanna be a good enough mom, right? We're good at being a students, aren't we? Yeah we are often primed to, to be perfect. 341 00:33:34,590.981 --> 00:33:38,460.981 I think especially us women who become doctors. 342 00:33:38,850.981 --> 00:33:43,980.981 I think I used to think that medicine made us this way. 343 00:33:44,235.981 --> 00:33:44,355.981 I. 344 00:33:45,75.981 --> 00:33:53,265.981 I actually think Madison selects the ones that are al already like this. 345 00:33:54,525.981 --> 00:34:06,95.981 You can't learn 25,000 new words in medical school and work that hard for four years without being studious and right. 346 00:34:06,95.981 --> 00:34:12,765.981 Achievement oriented The young women now are having babies in med school and residency. 347 00:34:12,765.981 --> 00:34:14,25.981 I couldn't have done that. 348 00:34:14,55.981 --> 00:34:16,995.981 I had to be a student and be a resident. 349 00:34:17,45.981 --> 00:34:21,455.981 But maybe they're doing it a better way than we did. 350 00:34:22,5.981 --> 00:34:22,575.981 Maybe. 351 00:34:22,815.981 --> 00:34:26,275.981 Maybe, who said that was the way to do it? Yeah. 352 00:34:26,325.981 --> 00:34:29,85.981 that's why we learned to overwork. 353 00:34:30,75.981 --> 00:34:30,615.981 Yeah. 354 00:34:30,975.981 --> 00:34:37,105.981 my mom had me, when I think about it, if I had a child at that age I think I would've been overwhelmed. 355 00:34:37,885.981 --> 00:34:38,605.981 Totally overwhelmed. 356 00:34:38,655.981 --> 00:34:40,305.981 I don't know what the word is that I'm looking for. 357 00:34:40,305.981 --> 00:34:41,175.981 Maternal. 358 00:34:41,835.981 --> 00:34:42,885.981 Mature. 359 00:34:42,885.981 --> 00:34:43,35.981 Mature. 360 00:34:44,85.981 --> 00:34:46,115.981 That's exactly Was it maturity? Maturity. 361 00:34:46,175.981 --> 00:34:47,495.981 You have to take something. 362 00:34:47,795.981 --> 00:34:50,465.981 You have to take care of this other human being. 363 00:34:50,465.981 --> 00:34:50,555.981 Yes. 364 00:34:50,585.981 --> 00:34:51,815.981 Besides yourself. 365 00:34:51,875.981 --> 00:34:55,895.981 And I could just barely take care of me and everything I had to learn. 366 00:34:56,255.981 --> 00:35:01,955.981 I'm glad I had my kids when I was later but that made me wait forever to become a grandmother. 367 00:35:02,225.981 --> 00:35:03,425.981 I'm finally a grandmother. 368 00:35:03,475.981 --> 00:35:07,730.981 Have an 8-year-old granddaughter and a 4-year-old grandson, and they're just so much fun. 369 00:35:08,190.981 --> 00:35:29,725.981 My daughter is a pediatric ICU nurse practitioner, so she's got the ICU bug too, Honestly if it wasn't for the neonatologists and the NICU nurses, like we, we both my husband and I are so grateful to them, and my, our daughter is now 12, so this was 12 years ago. 370 00:35:29,725.981 --> 00:35:32,635.981 But yeah, they were phenomenal. 371 00:35:32,765.981 --> 00:35:34,655.981 I'm glad everything turned out fine. 372 00:35:37,160.981 --> 00:35:47,265.981 So you no longer practice as a physician, as a clinical physician, is that correct? And so how long ago did you retire from your clinical practice? Six years ago. 373 00:35:47,605.981 --> 00:35:53,425.981 The other message for women physicians is retirement's really boring. 374 00:35:54,805.981 --> 00:36:10,95.981 We're so used to doing all these things our whole career and managing kids and family and a practice and then you retire and you're walking around going I don't have any big decisions to make and nobody needs me and I'm not important anymore. 375 00:36:10,95.981 --> 00:36:12,465.981 And it was a real shock for me. 376 00:36:12,885.981 --> 00:36:14,805.981 So I sat down and wrote my memoir. 377 00:36:14,865.981 --> 00:36:18,705.981 I had intended to write to collate the NICU stories. 378 00:36:19,605.981 --> 00:36:25,335.981 And my friends encouraged me to put in my own motherhood stories, my book club friends. 379 00:36:25,875.981 --> 00:36:28,245.981 And so that took a couple of years. 380 00:36:28,245.981 --> 00:36:30,645.981 That was a good project and it kept me busy. 381 00:36:30,645.981 --> 00:36:39,885.981 And then as I started marketing my book and answering questions, I've learned that I still had something to give. 382 00:36:39,885.981 --> 00:36:44,565.981 I had an experience that I could share with other women. 383 00:36:45,360.981 --> 00:36:58,340.981 Who were going through the same things I had been through, and I felt why not? I haven't made very much money from selling my book or speaking or writing a little bit, but that's not really the point. 384 00:36:58,390.981 --> 00:37:00,400.981 I saved enough money for retirement. 385 00:37:00,510.981 --> 00:37:05,580.981 My husband keeps saying, why are you bothering to do all this? And I think it's because. 386 00:37:06,330.981 --> 00:37:07,440.981 Women need it. 387 00:37:07,540.981 --> 00:37:22,740.981 I think that as professional women especially, need to hear from women who have gone before them to give 'em a few pointers and to tell 'em what the red flags are to watch out for. 388 00:37:23,10.981 --> 00:37:24,360.981 Nobody did that for me. 389 00:37:24,410.981 --> 00:37:29,930.981 Two people did that for me, another neonatologist and an infectious disease specialist. 390 00:37:30,30.981 --> 00:37:31,470.981 And I really appreciated it. 391 00:37:31,500.981 --> 00:37:35,860.981 I appreciated how they said, watch out for this, or don't worry about that. 392 00:37:35,860.981 --> 00:37:38,50.981 Or talk to your husband about that. 393 00:37:38,50.981 --> 00:37:38,350.981 I. 394 00:37:38,980.981 --> 00:37:41,680.981 Treated my junior partners The same way. 395 00:37:41,740.981 --> 00:37:58,210.981 Let's talk about so and I think if something like that, like a guide or a book That basically allows younger women who are focused on becoming a physician was out there, I would've definitely purchased something like that. 396 00:37:58,600.981 --> 00:38:01,160.981 I don't recall anything, out there at that point. 397 00:38:01,160.981 --> 00:38:09,60.981 I think the only person who tried to guide me was my own family doctor, who when I went in for my checkup. 398 00:38:09,435.981 --> 00:38:14,585.981 he comes in and he was like, I heard from your dad that you're going into medical school. 399 00:38:14,615.981 --> 00:38:16,415.981 He's I'm here to convince you not to do that. 400 00:38:16,470.981 --> 00:38:20,640.981 He was like, what do you mean? I already made the decision, right? I'm not changing it. 401 00:38:20,880.981 --> 00:38:26,445.981 He's no, what can I tell you that will make you change your mind? and he was like, because your life is not gonna be your own anymore. 402 00:38:26,445.981 --> 00:38:28,35.981 And I said, oh, okay. 403 00:38:29,505.981 --> 00:38:29,536.981 Oh, okay. 404 00:38:29,770.981 --> 00:38:30,60.981 Yeah. 405 00:38:30,315.981 --> 00:38:32,895.981 He tried to tell us, didn't he? They tried to tell us. 406 00:38:32,995.981 --> 00:38:34,375.981 But it's such a good life. 407 00:38:34,425.981 --> 00:38:37,455.981 Practicing medicine is such a privilege. 408 00:38:37,455.981 --> 00:38:39,165.981 I know you know this already. 409 00:38:39,405.981 --> 00:38:39,495.981 Yes. 410 00:38:39,525.981 --> 00:38:41,330.981 You get to see the most. 411 00:38:41,970.981 --> 00:38:49,770.981 Intimate aspects of people and families, and especially around pregnancy and childbirth. 412 00:38:49,800.981 --> 00:38:54,690.981 I just think it's just like a luxury to be part of families. 413 00:38:54,930.981 --> 00:38:55,260.981 Yeah. 414 00:38:55,370.981 --> 00:39:08,0.981 be at the birth of a set of twins and send them home three months later and I still hear from their mother and get pictures every Christmas part of that family, and that's just really special. 415 00:39:08,660.981 --> 00:39:11,930.981 That is just something that not everybody gets to do. 416 00:39:12,50.981 --> 00:39:14,740.981 So I just miss it so much. 417 00:39:14,790.981 --> 00:39:17,550.981 And if you ever retire, you'll miss your practice too. 418 00:39:17,850.981 --> 00:39:18,870.981 Oh, I know. 419 00:39:18,870.981 --> 00:39:20,370.981 Right now I'm so burnt out. 420 00:39:20,725.981 --> 00:39:21,15.981 Yeah. 421 00:39:22,915.981 --> 00:39:24,421.981 Oh, I know. 422 00:39:24,421.981 --> 00:39:31,140.981 So I don't even think I allow myself, the time to, to grieve over things that, have ended or. 423 00:39:31,785.981 --> 00:39:38,205.981 And I think that's part of the problem, right? That you don't necessarily appreciate everything that you have. 424 00:39:38,595.981 --> 00:39:46,585.981 Yeah, but I even see this week, right where, 'cause it's been spring break, I took the week off and we made a staycation last year. 425 00:39:46,945.981 --> 00:39:51,595.981 We had traveled to Spain this year because of other reasons we've had to stay at home. 426 00:39:52,15.981 --> 00:39:59,965.981 And just the time that I've spent with my family, it's made a huge difference for all of us. 427 00:40:00,405.981 --> 00:40:01,755.981 Good for all of us. 428 00:40:01,810.981 --> 00:40:12,200.981 they really, we underestimate the definition of being a good enough mother is being present when they need you. 429 00:40:12,480.981 --> 00:40:23,250.981 we underestimate how and when they need us because we're working so much and so we wanna be a good enough doctor. 430 00:40:23,250.981 --> 00:40:24,540.981 We wanna be a good enough mother. 431 00:40:24,540.981 --> 00:40:25,770.981 It is just this. 432 00:40:26,295.981 --> 00:40:30,225.981 Never ending Seesaw of a life. 433 00:40:30,685.981 --> 00:40:38,635.981 you have an opportunity to think about that and reconsider priorities. 434 00:40:38,735.981 --> 00:40:38,915.981 Yeah. 435 00:40:38,915.981 --> 00:40:46,395.981 I have some decisions to make, but I'm gonna take them over a few weeks to months to decide what's the right thing. 436 00:40:46,445.981 --> 00:40:50,335.981 Because I think if you make a decision too quickly, it may not be the right one. 437 00:40:50,335.981 --> 00:40:57,735.981 Whether it is to become more famous maybe carve it out in a different way, or do something that's less demanding. 438 00:40:57,940.981 --> 00:40:59,600.981 But That allows me more time. 439 00:40:59,600.981 --> 00:41:00,410.981 figure it out. 440 00:41:01,10.981 --> 00:41:09,650.981 I know there, there women out there who have done much more than I have and they've been able to figure it out, so I'm sure I will too. 441 00:41:09,700.981 --> 00:41:17,260.981 One of my favorite academic pediatricians, Carol Baker, she's a very famous pediatric ID person. 442 00:41:18,330.981 --> 00:41:49,970.981 After my husband and I were married and we had our three kids, we left Houston where we both trained, and I would see her at meetings and I always show her pictures of the kids and Chris shared Christmas cards and letters and she said to me once she was interviewing my daughter for a project, And she called me up and said, oh, your daughter's just delightful and I'd like to tell you that I always wished I could have a marriage and a family the way you did. 443 00:41:50,510.981 --> 00:41:52,820.981 And I went, oh my God, you gotta be kidding. 444 00:41:53,630.981 --> 00:41:58,460.981 Because I had always wanted to be an academic star like she was. 445 00:41:59,270.981 --> 00:41:59,630.981 Okay. 446 00:41:59,630.981 --> 00:42:01,460.981 She was like my idol. 447 00:42:02,330.981 --> 00:42:06,620.981 And here she told me she wanted the life that I had chosen. 448 00:42:07,220.981 --> 00:42:16,910.981 And I thought, isn't that just the way we always want something we can't have and we don't recognize that we're not settling. 449 00:42:16,910.981 --> 00:42:18,620.981 It's just a different choice. 450 00:42:18,620.981 --> 00:42:25,40.981 I chose marriage and a family and not academics, and she chose academics and. 451 00:42:25,700.981 --> 00:42:40,365.981 To hear her tell me That was so moving and it just taught me that, we each have our own path and we make these choices and hopefully they're the best for us and our family. 452 00:42:41,835.981 --> 00:42:47,205.981 The thing is, for those of us who have daughters, I think it's applicable to our sons too. 453 00:42:47,255.981 --> 00:42:50,885.981 But for those of us who have daughters, what I do think about is. 454 00:42:51,850.981 --> 00:42:54,550.981 this never ending cycle of wanting to achieve. 455 00:42:54,550.981 --> 00:42:56,740.981 our daughters do watch us. 456 00:42:58,210.981 --> 00:42:58,300.981 Oh yeah. 457 00:42:58,300.981 --> 00:43:04,970.981 And I often worry that I'm setting a pattern like this is how it's supposed to be. 458 00:43:05,620.981 --> 00:43:09,670.981 This is not nec, my parents were ambitious in other ways. 459 00:43:09,770.981 --> 00:43:13,760.981 They didn't pattern it in terms of being doctors or anything like that. 460 00:43:14,360.981 --> 00:43:24,500.981 But that is something that I worry about Because I do think there is an element in our society of not necessarily appreciating what you already have. 461 00:43:24,695.981 --> 00:43:24,845.981 Yeah. 462 00:43:24,845.981 --> 00:43:26,945.981 Not to put that burden on us as well. 463 00:43:28,940.981 --> 00:43:33,830.981 So Susan we've talked a lot about all the great work that you do. 464 00:43:34,160.981 --> 00:43:48,155.981 If my listeners do want to find you and purchase your book as well as get your guide, how can they do that? The My website is the place to start, susan landers md.com. 465 00:43:48,695.981 --> 00:43:51,935.981 You can subscribe to the newsletter by the book. 466 00:43:52,460.981 --> 00:43:56,330.981 Buy the ebook, everything is based off of there. 467 00:43:56,360.981 --> 00:43:59,930.981 And I have some free resources for parents too. 468 00:43:59,930.981 --> 00:44:05,360.981 So I give away way more than I sell, just the way it is. 469 00:44:06,510.981 --> 00:44:09,890.981 All you have to do is delegate And then hire a secretary. 470 00:44:10,190.981 --> 00:44:11,300.981 Hire an assistant. 471 00:44:11,300.981 --> 00:44:11,390.981 Yes. 472 00:44:11,390.981 --> 00:44:12,260.981 Oh my gosh. 473 00:44:12,260.981 --> 00:44:12,560.981 Yeah. 474 00:44:13,130.981 --> 00:44:21,145.981 That wouldn't be like being back at work, wouldn't it? So this has really been A delightful conversation with you. 475 00:44:21,265.981 --> 00:44:24,85.981 Yes, it was a lot of fun talking with you. 476 00:44:24,165.981 --> 00:44:32,335.981 And I do hope that we can continue staying in touch through LinkedIn and all the different platforms and maybe even one day meet. 477 00:44:33,655.981 --> 00:44:34,375.981 That'd be great. 478 00:44:34,415.981 --> 00:44:35,75.981 Of course. 479 00:44:35,765.981 --> 00:44:36,455.981 Oh good. 480 00:44:36,485.981 --> 00:44:42,720.981 So I just need your mailing address and if you send me that in an email, I'll send you a copy of the book. 481 00:44:42,725.981 --> 00:44:42,755.981 Okay. 482 00:44:42,785.981 --> 00:44:43,715.981 Thank you so much. 483 00:44:43,715.981 --> 00:44:44,705.981 I appreciate it. 484 00:44:45,45.981 --> 00:44:49,145.981 And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast. 485 00:44:49,695.981 --> 00:44:53,485.981 Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says. 486 00:44:53,785.981 --> 00:44:57,445.981 Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.