The Untold Struggles of Doctors: Burnout, Healing and Redemption

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In this episode of Soma Says, Dr. Soma welcomes Dr. Jill Wener, a former academic hospitalist turned nationally recognized leader in physician wellness, trauma-informed healing, and anti-racism education.

Dr. Wener shares her powerful personal journey—from battling burnout to embracing meditation and EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique). Together, they explore the intersection of wellness, systemic challenges in medicine, and the urgent need to address racial inequities in healthcare.

If you're a healthcare professional seeking balance, or simply curious about the healing power of tapping and conscious anti-racism, this episode is a must-listen.

Episode Timeline

00:00 — Introduction and Disclaimer

01:26 — Meet Dr. Jill Wener: From Burnout to Wellness Advocate

02:27 — Journey to Meditation and Career Transformation

04:22 — Current Work: EFT, Anti-Racism, and DEI Consulting

05:31 — Challenges in Modern Medicine

19:29 — Understanding and Practicing EFT

36:23 — Social Justice and Anti-Racism in Healthcare

40:23 — Conclusion and Contact Information

Connect with Dr. Jill Wener: Website: jillwener.com Instagram: @jillwenermd

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hi, this is Dr.
Soma.
Just a disclaimer, this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice.
Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen.
Let's go to the show. 6 00:01:16,380.023 --> 00:01:21,560.023 This system is never, I'm never gonna be enough to be all the things that the system wants me to be. 7 00:01:22,580.023 --> 00:01:25,990.023 And There's something so freeing for me of not having to play that game anymore. 8 00:01:26,260.023 --> 00:01:29,230.023 Today on Soma Says, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. 9 00:01:29,230.023 --> 00:01:38,750.023 Jill Weener—a former academic hospitalist turned nationally recognized leader in physician wellness, trauma-informed healing, and anti-racism education. 10 00:01:39,330.023 --> 00:01:42,470.023 After over a decade in internal medicine, Dr. 11 00:01:42,470.023 --> 00:01:46,760.023 Weener transformed her own experience with burnout into a mission to help others heal. 12 00:01:47,350.023 --> 00:01:58,430.023 She's a certified meditation teacher and EFT/tapping practitioner, and the co-founder of Conscious Anti-Racism, offering CME-accredited programs that blend mind-body tools with social justice. 13 00:01:58,610.023 --> 00:01:58,910.023 Dr. 14 00:01:58,910.023 --> 00:02:03,340.023 Weener brings science, compassion, and deep authenticity to every conversation. 15 00:02:03,700.023 --> 00:02:04,380.023 Let's dive in. 16 00:02:05,260.023 --> 00:02:07,850.023 You're very welcome to be on my podcast. 17 00:02:07,850.023 --> 00:02:08,840.023 You're much needed. 18 00:02:09,290.023 --> 00:02:29,95.023 Because of, I think everything that's happening with medicine, Were you an internist for 10 plus years? So what led you to decide that you had enough and that you were going to make a switchover and do something different with your career? I never really intentionally left. 19 00:02:30,245.023 --> 00:02:34,365.023 my medical practice I got really burned out in 2011 and learned a medi. 20 00:02:34,605.023 --> 00:02:36,375.023 This meditation practice found me. 21 00:02:36,795.023 --> 00:02:40,825.023 I was never a spiritual type and always very anxious, typical type. 22 00:02:40,825.023 --> 00:02:49,285.023 A doctor learned this meditation practice that really changed my life and I decided after a few years of practicing regularly that I wanted to do. 23 00:02:50,35.023 --> 00:03:01,245.023 My meditation teacher training, which is three months in India, and I had this big talk with my boss and I was like, he's like, where do you see yourself in five years? and I always thought I'd come back and do a 0.6 24 00:03:01,245.023 --> 00:03:05,905.023 FTE doctor, and then teach meditation like back still in Chicago. 25 00:03:05,905.023 --> 00:03:07,195.023 I never thought I was leaving. 26 00:03:08,635.023 --> 00:03:12,385.023 So I told him and he ended up being supportive and I was like, Ooh, I'm disappointed. 27 00:03:12,385.023 --> 00:03:13,345.023 Like I was hope. 28 00:03:13,345.023 --> 00:03:15,985.023 I don't know, I think I was hoping for some big upheaval or something. 29 00:03:15,985.023 --> 00:03:21,55.023 And then I ended up having the opportunity to move to China personal relationship stuff. 30 00:03:21,115.023 --> 00:03:28,885.023 And so I moved to China before I went to, in my teacher training was three months in India, so I moved to China. 31 00:03:29,305.023 --> 00:03:37,245.023 I went to India for my teacher training, and then while I was in China, it was becoming very clear that personal situation was not working out. 32 00:03:37,245.023 --> 00:03:40,425.023 And so after India, I moved back home to Atlanta. 33 00:03:40,845.023 --> 00:03:47,470.023 And by that time I had been out of medicine for six months or so. 34 00:03:47,570.023 --> 00:03:51,985.023 And I was like, I had spent three months in India like. 35 00:03:52,540.023 --> 00:03:55,430.023 Barefoot meditating, under the full moon or whatever. 36 00:03:55,430.023 --> 00:03:59,540.023 And I was just like, I don't know who that woman is anymore in the white coat. 37 00:03:59,540.023 --> 00:04:00,380.023 And I love her. 38 00:04:00,380.023 --> 00:04:03,970.023 And I was happy enough like I was doing the thing. 39 00:04:04,30.023 --> 00:04:05,590.023 But I just knew I couldn't go back. 40 00:04:06,200.023 --> 00:04:13,790.023 So I decided not to go back and then started teaching meditation and I don't, I barely actually teach meditation anymore, but I still practice it. 41 00:04:14,0.023 --> 00:04:16,310.023 And what I do professionally has evolved. 42 00:04:16,310.023 --> 00:04:20,40.023 But that's what took me away from it without the intention of leaving. 43 00:04:21,30.023 --> 00:04:22,50.023 And that's interesting. 44 00:04:22,50.023 --> 00:04:24,120.023 Tell us what you're doing now to help people. 45 00:04:24,810.023 --> 00:04:35,330.023 Yeah, so I'm a certified EFT tapping practitioner tappings and evidence-based stress reduction in healing modality trauma healing modality that I experienced as a human. 46 00:04:35,420.023 --> 00:04:39,320.023 And then after doing it for a couple years, decided to be a practitioner. 47 00:04:39,600.023 --> 00:04:54,830.023 And I'm also an anti-racism and anti-oppression educator and activist, so I do, a lot of work in that space doing some DEI consulting which has been a bit fraught in the last several months, but probably in the last couple years has been more and more challenging to do. 48 00:04:54,930.023 --> 00:05:01,170.023 So yeah, that's the work that I do and I do a lot of work seeing clients with tapping facilitating trauma trainings. 49 00:05:01,710.023 --> 00:05:03,670.023 So that's, and I do still teach meditation. 50 00:05:03,720.023 --> 00:05:07,680.023 I run retreats for women in healthcare and. 51 00:05:08,265.023 --> 00:05:11,475.023 I think for a while I tried to pretend that I wasn't a doctor. 52 00:05:12,45.023 --> 00:05:13,785.023 I was like, I'm a meditation teacher now. 53 00:05:14,205.023 --> 00:05:19,665.023 And then the doctor like, you can take the doctor outta medicine, but you can't take the medicine, whatever, the girl outta the med, whatever. 54 00:05:19,665.023 --> 00:05:22,905.023 So I was, it was still in me and it's always been a part of who I am. 55 00:05:22,995.023 --> 00:05:23,625.023 Exactly. 56 00:05:23,685.023 --> 00:05:28,785.023 And I think I, realized at some point I was meant to do this in a different Yeah. 57 00:05:29,55.023 --> 00:05:31,390.023 Meant to help people in a different way. 58 00:05:31,395.023 --> 00:05:31,425.023 Yeah. 59 00:05:31,605.023 --> 00:05:32,270.023 With a different lens. 60 00:05:32,275.023 --> 00:05:44,570.023 What are your thoughts about what's happening with medicine right now and how doctors specifically are feeling? About what's happening and the way they're being treated and viewed. 61 00:05:45,145.023 --> 00:06:04,55.023 I, I, for one, did not see this part happening where the relationship, don't get me wrong, I have very good relationships with patients, but with my own patients, that is, but the whole doctor, physician patient relationship has totally. 62 00:06:05,140.023 --> 00:06:08,140.023 changed, in my opinion, for the bad. 63 00:06:08,840.023 --> 00:06:11,630.023 And it's bad for us because we're both doctors and patients. 64 00:06:12,540.023 --> 00:06:23,45.023 But what are your thoughts about all that? Do you mean March, 2020? Yeah, what do you, what's your Yeah I would definitely include March, 2020 onwards. 65 00:06:23,615.023 --> 00:06:27,695.023 But even before that, that things have been changing through the years. 66 00:06:27,695.023 --> 00:06:29,225.023 Let's say from March, 2020. 67 00:06:29,585.023 --> 00:06:30,515.023 There's so many things. 68 00:06:30,515.023 --> 00:06:30,965.023 I think. 69 00:06:31,445.023 --> 00:06:31,775.023 Health. 70 00:06:31,775.023 --> 00:06:34,55.023 Getting politicized is a huge problem. 71 00:06:34,505.023 --> 00:06:52,375.023 Capitalism, finding its way into healthcare even more and more, I don't know if you've heard the term end stage capitalism before, private equity firms buying out hospitals and practices and stuff like that and insurance companies, all of that, I think treating human beings and their health as commodities, I think. 72 00:06:53,110.023 --> 00:06:57,190.023 The fact that there is not equality in terms of healthcare in our country. 73 00:06:57,610.023 --> 00:07:05,55.023 And I think there's a lot of, I, it's funny, when I was first out of meditation, teacher training and practicing, I was like burnout. 74 00:07:05,85.023 --> 00:07:08,925.023 And then there was like a whole moral injury versus burnout thing. 75 00:07:08,925.023 --> 00:07:12,525.023 And I'm not sure how familiar you are with moral injury or your listeners are. 76 00:07:13,65.023 --> 00:07:14,955.023 Validating both of those experiences. 77 00:07:14,985.023 --> 00:07:32,955.023 Moral injury being the, like mental health outcomes of participating in a system that's causing harm for people who like went into a system to help people and watching these things happen to people, watching people be treated in a certain way. 78 00:07:33,55.023 --> 00:07:43,485.023 The limitations of our healthcare system for people who don't have insurance or who are of different identities and the mental health toll that takes on people who actually want to be doing good. 79 00:07:44,215.023 --> 00:07:48,985.023 And so all of that is gonna harm everybody, not just the people who don't have white skin. 80 00:07:49,385.023 --> 00:07:56,255.023 And so I think all of those things together for me are what caused. 81 00:07:57,440.023 --> 00:08:06,440.023 The perfectionism, like all of that perfectionism being part of white supremacy culture, all of that together is putting us in us as physicians in impossible position. 82 00:08:08,220.023 --> 00:08:08,510.023 Yeah. 83 00:08:09,755.023 --> 00:08:20,615.023 And I just think about all the different factors that were pulling at me at one point before I left my, again, I don't, I hate to say I left my practice, but before I moved to China and ended up not coming back. 84 00:08:22,100.023 --> 00:08:24,320.023 I remember being like, I'm just gonna be perfect. 85 00:08:24,320.023 --> 00:08:27,590.023 I'm gonna do everything everyone tells me to do and I'm gonna get all the good scores. 86 00:08:27,590.023 --> 00:08:44,180.023 So there's like patient satisfaction scores and readmission rate and length of stay and not over-prescribing pain meds and not over-prescribing antibiotics, but making patients happy and listening to the patient and honoring their needs and education and teaching the residents and the med students, but also honoring work hours. 87 00:08:44,180.023 --> 00:08:49,910.023 It's like everything we were asked to do is directly competing with it, but we're expected to do it all perfectly. 88 00:08:49,910.023 --> 00:08:54,590.023 And if we don't, there's this like internalized failure as a human. 89 00:08:55,880.023 --> 00:08:58,250.023 And I just remember being like, I'm never gonna be enough. 90 00:08:59,0.023 --> 00:09:04,180.023 This system is never, I'm never gonna be enough to be all the things that the system wants me to be. 91 00:09:05,200.023 --> 00:09:08,610.023 And There's something so freeing for me of not having to play that game anymore. 92 00:09:08,880.023 --> 00:09:15,720.023 And I think that's where physician coaches do a lot of great work in helping people, escape that mindset, but still stay in their clinical practice. 93 00:09:15,750.023 --> 00:09:16,720.023 'cause it's exhausting. 94 00:09:17,710.023 --> 00:09:19,60.023 It is totally exhausting. 95 00:09:19,85.023 --> 00:09:25,80.023 I have to adhere to those measures quality metrics, whatever you call them, and. 96 00:09:25,850.023 --> 00:09:30,770.023 Often it's not a true measure of how you're really taking care of your patients. 97 00:09:30,800.023 --> 00:09:46,450.023 I've always said, yes, there should be some metrics in terms of patient safety and it could look, I would structure it very differently and not necessarily a zero to 10 kind of thing where, we need to obviously maintain standards and. 98 00:09:46,545.023 --> 00:09:57,345.023 Safety and respect towards patients, but a lot of these things are more like a jungle gym that are put upon us and we can't escape it. 99 00:09:57,345.023 --> 00:10:09,555.023 And it, whether patients realize it or not it often impacts them as well because we're the ones who are treating the patients and they don't necessarily always understand the. 100 00:10:11,520.023 --> 00:10:14,510.023 The constricts that are, that, that are placed upon us. 101 00:10:14,900.023 --> 00:10:15,110.023 Yeah. 102 00:10:15,420.023 --> 00:10:22,660.023 The clients, most of your clients are they physicians? Are they healthcare practitioners? Notice that I'd never say providers on my podcast. 103 00:10:23,50.023 --> 00:10:33,550.023 I hate that word because I do like practitioners because we can practice and they're all sorts of different type of healthcare people who practice medicine. 104 00:10:33,600.023 --> 00:10:37,500.023 But providers are very, it's a very impersonal word for me. 105 00:10:38,130.023 --> 00:10:54,180.023 But the most of your clients, are they in healthcare or are they spread out? I think in my meditation tapping world, I'd say probably 50 to 60% of my clients are healthcare. 106 00:10:54,780.023 --> 00:10:59,980.023 And then in all, the retreats I had done, I have an a retreat coming up in September that's not for healthcare. 107 00:10:59,980.023 --> 00:11:04,700.023 But previously all my retreats had been for healthcare women specifically in healthcare. 108 00:11:04,750.023 --> 00:11:10,150.023 And in our, my anti-racism and DEI work that I do about 50 50 as well. 109 00:11:10,270.023 --> 00:11:18,470.023 We work with a lot of healthcare systems, but we also work with other organizations and specifically your clients that are physicians. 110 00:11:18,740.023 --> 00:11:49,80.023 How do they find you? How do they seek it out? Is it word of mouth by other? Doctors who refer you them to you? Or is there a way that people find you Another way, I should say? I have done a few workplace wellness programs where it's voluntary, but it's like paid for by the institution and I have found that people get a lot more out of the trainings, particularly, I would say specifically with meditation. 111 00:11:50,205.023 --> 00:11:54,555.023 When they find me on their own rather than doing it because someone else is paying for it. 112 00:11:55,5.023 --> 00:11:59,745.023 With tapping it's a little different because tapping is directly ex experiential. 113 00:11:59,745.023 --> 00:12:01,815.023 Like you can benefit from it the first time you do it. 114 00:12:01,815.023 --> 00:12:05,175.023 Meditation, you have to learn the technique and then you practice it on your own. 115 00:12:05,485.023 --> 00:12:07,555.023 it takes time to learn it and it takes time. 116 00:12:08,575.023 --> 00:12:09,925.023 You practice it and then you're like. 117 00:12:10,645.023 --> 00:12:13,135.023 Even just a few days, it helps, but you still have to practice it. 118 00:12:13,165.023 --> 00:12:19,465.023 Whereas tapping, it's like I'm doing it for someone with someone, but I'm facilitating it and they can get the benefits very quickly. 119 00:12:19,465.023 --> 00:12:22,665.023 And so that tends to be like anyone who experiences it is intuit. 120 00:12:22,715.023 --> 00:12:30,215.023 I would say that generally people find their way to, just the same way I found my way to meditation or it found its way to me when I was ready for it. 121 00:12:30,695.023 --> 00:12:41,55.023 People find their way to me when it's the right time and they'll have heard about me on a podcast or referral, or they'll Google and my, retreat will come up. 122 00:12:41,155.023 --> 00:12:44,335.023 I think people find me who are looking for me. 123 00:12:44,385.023 --> 00:12:51,645.023 And there's people who in the health physician wellness space who, have 150 people at every event that they do. 124 00:12:51,695.023 --> 00:12:52,955.023 my events are not like that. 125 00:12:52,955.023 --> 00:12:56,65.023 My events are very small and personal There's space for all of it. 126 00:12:56,65.023 --> 00:13:01,165.023 There's space for everyone, like self-care in medicine, it looks different for everybody. 127 00:13:01,165.023 --> 00:13:04,735.023 And so there are people who are gonna find other people and love them. 128 00:13:04,855.023 --> 00:13:11,525.023 And so I think there's a sort of a little bit of the universe for, guiding people in some way. 129 00:13:11,525.023 --> 00:13:13,895.023 The people who need to find me will find me right. 130 00:13:15,260.023 --> 00:13:20,810.023 And you were saying that you can take the, I guess it would be the woman out of medicine, but not the medicine out of the woman. 131 00:13:21,20.023 --> 00:13:21,200.023 Yeah. 132 00:13:21,480.023 --> 00:13:23,745.023 How do your experiences as a doctor. 133 00:13:24,810.023 --> 00:13:31,970.023 Affect modalities like you tapping and meditation, because I'm, I do practice me meditation. 134 00:13:32,330.023 --> 00:13:34,880.023 I'm probably not at the level that you are though. 135 00:13:35,270.023 --> 00:13:45,530.023 But it, as a doctor, I've noted certain changes within myself when I do practice meditation on a regular basis. 136 00:13:45,530.023 --> 00:13:48,500.023 I can't say that I do it always on a regular basis though. 137 00:13:49,370.023 --> 00:13:50,930.023 But how do your experiences. 138 00:13:51,515.023 --> 00:14:00,185.023 Shape, shape those modalities for you? I like things that are effective and. 139 00:14:01,385.023 --> 00:14:04,25.023 Experiential so people don't have to like, trust me on it. 140 00:14:04,25.023 --> 00:14:06,905.023 They can actually do it and get the benefits from it. 141 00:14:07,475.023 --> 00:14:10,685.023 And I like that the things that I teach are evidence-based. 142 00:14:10,685.023 --> 00:14:13,235.023 And I also like that I teach people to be self-sufficient. 143 00:14:14,135.023 --> 00:14:24,695.023 Some people come to me for tapping and they want me to guide them through, it's like a therapy session so there are people who don't tap on their own and they just want to come see me once a week or we do, I do zoom or live in person, but there's other people. 144 00:14:25,565.023 --> 00:14:27,335.023 Who just wanna learn how to tap on their own. 145 00:14:27,335.023 --> 00:14:36,395.023 I do train the trainers and stuff, so I love being able to empower people and not have people beholden to me or dependent on me for what they need. 146 00:14:37,115.023 --> 00:14:41,645.023 So I love and I like things that are quick and efficient and easy to fit into your day. 147 00:14:42,125.023 --> 00:14:46,845.023 For me as a physician, one of the things that I notice the most, with meditation. 148 00:14:46,845.023 --> 00:14:48,795.023 I would, I did tapping after I stopped practicing. 149 00:14:48,845.023 --> 00:14:57,245.023 But I think meditation helped me embrace change more and uncertainty and the need to control things. 150 00:14:57,305.023 --> 00:15:10,505.023 I'm sure you're very familiar with that need, as a hospitalist or any person, you're like conducting it's like An orchestra or a circus or whatever, and like all these pieces have to fit together and these tests have to do it and the residents and all this stuff. 151 00:15:10,565.023 --> 00:15:18,5.023 And if a CAT scan would get canceled or someone wouldn't get discharged the day they were supposed to get discharged, I would just get devastated by it. 152 00:15:18,5.023 --> 00:15:20,585.023 It just felt like it was tearing something out of my heart. 153 00:15:20,645.023 --> 00:15:26,165.023 And I eventually started to learn with meditation that I don't actually know what's best. 154 00:15:26,555.023 --> 00:15:27,995.023 I don't know what's supposed to happen. 155 00:15:27,995.023 --> 00:15:28,685.023 I think I'm. 156 00:15:29,105.023 --> 00:15:34,235.023 I think I'm supposed to know, and maybe sometimes I think I know, but I never actually do. 157 00:15:34,805.023 --> 00:15:37,865.023 There's stuff that we can learn in back in textbooks, but really it is an art. 158 00:15:37,865.023 --> 00:15:45,695.023 And so the more I just was able to surrender to what was happening instead of what I thought should happen, that was hugely impactful for me. 159 00:15:45,695.023 --> 00:15:54,675.023 And I would sit around and see my colleagues getting very upset about certain things, and they just weren't phasing me the way that they used to. 160 00:15:55,500.023 --> 00:15:59,190.023 Not that I was ignoring them or pretending they didn't exist. 161 00:15:59,240.023 --> 00:16:01,640.023 I just had a different perspective without even trying. 162 00:16:01,850.023 --> 00:16:17,960.023 And then with tapping, I think there's a lot of trauma that happens in our medical training to us and in our, medical training, post-graduate and that we continue to experience and we continuously absorb these traumas, either personally or if there's a bad patient outcome. 163 00:16:18,515.023 --> 00:16:20,15.023 Just a sad patient outcome. 164 00:16:20,345.023 --> 00:16:21,335.023 We carry that with us. 165 00:16:21,335.023 --> 00:16:30,65.023 And so tapping really helps people to release a lot of that and a lot of the anxiety, a lot of the perfectionism tapping really helps people with those issues pertaining to healthcare. 166 00:16:31,95.023 --> 00:16:41,835.023 I think we go into medicine and it's very kind of the, it's different in a way that, of Eastern medicine, for example, and other alternative therapies. 167 00:16:42,375.023 --> 00:16:52,485.023 And so even though I'm a South Asian background, I went into medicine as a Western drain physician and I was like, okay, this is the way things are. 168 00:16:52,645.023 --> 00:16:57,445.023 you're just trained to believe that, not realizing that there are. 169 00:16:58,30.023 --> 00:17:08,230.023 Ancient practices and treatments that have been available well before, not just when you were born, but when modern medicine was born. 170 00:17:08,590.023 --> 00:17:08,650.023 Yeah. 171 00:17:08,830.023 --> 00:17:23,260.023 So that's what I think I was asking at your experience as a Western trained doctor and how you were able to accept or embrace or even view some of the alternative treatments. 172 00:17:23,720.023 --> 00:17:23,945.023 I see. 173 00:17:25,70.023 --> 00:17:30,470.023 Yeah, I was the skeptic, the most skeptical of all skeptics before I learned to meditate. 174 00:17:31,70.023 --> 00:17:32,210.023 And it's experiential. 175 00:17:32,210.023 --> 00:17:35,650.023 So I was meditating and I was having these life-changing benefits. 176 00:17:35,970.023 --> 00:17:37,710.023 And I was like, all right it's happening. 177 00:17:37,860.023 --> 00:17:43,360.023 Like where have I been? How did I not know about it? And I was never gonna be open to it until I was broken enough. 178 00:17:43,960.023 --> 00:17:53,40.023 That I was open to it and there was this like confluence of things that happened in my personal and professional life in 2011 that led to me being open to it. 179 00:17:53,160.023 --> 00:18:12,690.023 And so because of those experiences, I know for sure that there's stuff that the, these holes in western medicine, in allopathic medicine, I'm not trained in osteopathic, so I can't speak for it, but there's holes that we don't know how to address, but we're still taught that we know we should know how to address them. 180 00:18:13,50.023 --> 00:18:31,650.023 And so knowing that I've experienced what I've experienced with meditation and then with tapping, and there's all these studies that show benefits with meditation and tapping I think it's helped me open my eyes, open my mind to, I don't wanna say anything, but I would doubt my doubts before. 181 00:18:31,650.023 --> 00:18:32,310.023 I would doubt. 182 00:18:33,735.023 --> 00:18:37,285.023 A a modality because I was trained to doubt all this stuff. 183 00:18:37,285.023 --> 00:18:38,695.023 I was trained to doubt chiropractors. 184 00:18:38,845.023 --> 00:18:43,405.023 I was trained to doubt anything that isn't western medicine, as if western medicine doesn't cause any harm. 185 00:18:44,275.023 --> 00:18:45,835.023 And Western medicine causes a lot of harm. 186 00:18:45,835.023 --> 00:18:52,255.023 And I think the more we can acknowledge that, the more we can be, I don't know, being more transparent around it. 187 00:18:52,385.023 --> 00:18:57,455.023 And our practices help a lot of people and can do amazing things for people and they can cause harm too. 188 00:18:57,815.023 --> 00:18:57,995.023 Yes. 189 00:18:58,45.023 --> 00:18:58,765.023 Absolutely. 190 00:18:58,765.023 --> 00:19:09,575.023 It is prevalent in western medicine and I think a good patient doctor relationship is where you can acknowledge, let's try all these other things. 191 00:19:09,875.023 --> 00:19:09,935.023 Yeah. 192 00:19:09,995.023 --> 00:19:12,125.023 Before we resort to medication. 193 00:19:12,365.023 --> 00:19:19,5.023 But if we do try medication, these are potential side effects and other things to be aware Of down the road. 194 00:19:19,485.023 --> 00:19:20,565.023 So yeah. 195 00:19:20,565.023 --> 00:19:22,895.023 I often, struggle between that. 196 00:19:22,895.023 --> 00:19:24,365.023 Balance myself. 197 00:19:25,290.023 --> 00:19:28,770.023 We've been talking about alternative medicine and tapping and all of that. 198 00:19:29,850.023 --> 00:19:33,420.023 I know what tapping is or have at least an understanding of what it is. 199 00:19:34,230.023 --> 00:19:38,950.023 Why don't you talk to us about it and how it can benefit people. 200 00:19:39,580.023 --> 00:19:39,850.023 Sure. 201 00:19:40,240.023 --> 00:19:51,780.023 So tapping is also called the Emotional Freedom Technique or EFT and it's scientific name if you're going to look it up in PubMed or Google Scholar is emotional freedom technique. 202 00:19:51,950.023 --> 00:20:00,260.023 So basically it is a technique that has its roots in both traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture and modern psychology. 203 00:20:00,560.023 --> 00:20:09,235.023 And it basically involves acupressure or tapping on different meridians or energy centers or points on your face and chest while saying out loud. 204 00:20:10,270.023 --> 00:20:11,770.023 Whatever it is that's distressing us. 205 00:20:11,890.023 --> 00:20:25,600.023 And in doing so beyond the fact that it like sometimes feels weird to do the first couple times and it looks funny 'cause you're like tapping and saying things that are bothering you, it actually activates the parasympathetic nervous system. 206 00:20:25,630.023 --> 00:20:29,590.023 And it also reprograms the way the stress center of our brain processes stress. 207 00:20:30,70.023 --> 00:20:34,900.023 So it allows our brain in a moment where we're feeling it's like exposure therapy, but very. 208 00:20:35,605.023 --> 00:20:46,765.023 Mild, and you're not actually in front of the thing, but you're talking about the thing and you, by allowing yourself to feel some of that distress, you're then able to tell your nervous system, Hey, I'm actually okay. 209 00:20:46,795.023 --> 00:20:46,825.023 Okay. 210 00:20:47,935.023 --> 00:20:52,375.023 It feels scary, it feels bad, and I'm also actually safe right now. 211 00:20:52,375.023 --> 00:20:58,825.023 And it can shift the whole way we approach or feel about something that has happened to us or a situation. 212 00:21:00,935.023 --> 00:21:03,215.023 That's a great definition of it. 213 00:21:03,215.023 --> 00:21:09,35.023 I just want my listeners to be able to imagine and understand what that is. 214 00:21:09,35.023 --> 00:21:22,295.023 So when you do teach or practice tapping yourself, how long do the sessions last for? Is it a five minute thing? Is it 10 minutes? Does it go for an hour? How long does it last? It really depends. 215 00:21:22,345.023 --> 00:21:23,755.023 There's like symptomatic tapping. 216 00:21:23,755.023 --> 00:21:25,825.023 So it could be like, I'm sad, I'm angry. 217 00:21:26,45.023 --> 00:21:27,155.023 I'm activated by something. 218 00:21:27,155.023 --> 00:21:28,175.023 I'm triggered by something. 219 00:21:28,225.023 --> 00:21:35,755.023 I just read something on social media that's making me really mad, or I'm really upset that I'm anxious about a social interaction that I had. 220 00:21:36,175.023 --> 00:21:39,905.023 In that case, you can tap for on your own or, with a guided. 221 00:21:40,705.023 --> 00:21:43,675.023 Video or something for five or 10 minutes and get good relief. 222 00:21:44,245.023 --> 00:21:56,525.023 I also do sessions with people one-on-one and they come for an hour and we work through like bigger issues, not, they don't just come in and say, I'm sad about this, but it's we go some of it's that, but also deeper kind of self-limiting beliefs. 223 00:21:56,885.023 --> 00:21:59,645.023 Helping people get through medical trauma that they may have experienced. 224 00:21:59,695.023 --> 00:22:02,305.023 any kind of trauma, we can work through that as well. 225 00:22:02,305.023 --> 00:22:06,205.023 And that's a more, that's something the deeper work you wanna do with a practitioner. 226 00:22:06,395.023 --> 00:22:09,815.023 It involves basically like when I'm working with someone, it's call and response. 227 00:22:09,815.023 --> 00:22:15,615.023 So I say the thing out loud and then they repeat after me and we tap literally it's points on our face. 228 00:22:15,735.023 --> 00:22:19,595.023 Like you are literally tapping like this and just saying, I'm feeling so angry right now. 229 00:22:19,595.023 --> 00:22:36,875.023 All this anger, I'm angry about what I read on social media and as opposed to putting our bad feelings, like shoving them away, which we're often taught to do, right? It allows us to feel our actual feelings and lean into the full breadth of our humanity, because whether we like it or not, we feel all the feelings. 230 00:22:36,875.023 --> 00:22:39,635.023 We are capable of having them and we should be capable of having them. 231 00:22:40,55.023 --> 00:22:43,475.023 This allows us to feel, sit with our feelings and also process them. 232 00:22:44,265.023 --> 00:22:47,295.023 So that they don't when we push our feelings away, they don't actually the bad feelings. 233 00:22:47,295.023 --> 00:22:48,135.023 They don't go anywhere. 234 00:22:48,195.023 --> 00:22:51,135.023 They just come back and get to us in different ways. 235 00:22:51,135.023 --> 00:22:57,995.023 So yeah, this allows us to really be with the stuff that's uncomfortable and then move through 'em. 236 00:22:59,955.023 --> 00:23:05,775.023 Bottle up our feelings, right? Obviously it can impact us not just emotionally, but physically. 237 00:23:06,325.023 --> 00:23:14,935.023 Sometimes as hypertension, increasing our cortisol levels, putting us at risk for heart disease, obviously, diabetes, all sorts of stuff. 238 00:23:14,935.023 --> 00:23:18,915.023 So there are definitely impacts of bottling up your stressors. 239 00:23:19,305.023 --> 00:23:39,140.023 So do you often find that? Do you see improvements in not just mental health, but also physical health with your clients who practice EFT? Yeah, one of the things I love about tapping is besides the fact that it's actually really easy to do, it's very, adaptable. 240 00:23:39,380.023 --> 00:23:43,40.023 you can tap on emotional symptoms or you can tap on physical symptoms. 241 00:23:43,460.023 --> 00:23:46,820.023 You can tap on the emotions that you're having about physical symptoms. 242 00:23:47,70.023 --> 00:23:56,65.023 I had a patient with stage three B breast cancer, who's like coming up on three years since her diagnosis and she's doing, I don't take credit for that. 243 00:23:56,760.023 --> 00:24:01,590.023 she was having nausea from chemo and we tapped on her nausea and her nausea got better. 244 00:24:01,770.023 --> 00:24:04,350.023 She had a lot of trauma from her medical experience. 245 00:24:04,350.023 --> 00:24:12,450.023 She had a lot of fears and doubts around her cancer as she moved through the recovery, and so we tapped on that so you can tap on physical symptoms. 246 00:24:12,510.023 --> 00:24:19,890.023 She was having recurring pain at the site where her primary tumor was, She had a scan and everything was there, but she was still having the pain. 247 00:24:20,70.023 --> 00:24:26,880.023 So we were able to tap on that pain and she was better able to understand it and what it might be. 248 00:24:27,930.023 --> 00:24:36,789.023 The reason it might be there, what it, might be there to tell her, knowing that it wasn't actually, I'm not like, oh no, it's your pain is, I always want people to get the health stuff checked out. 249 00:24:36,789.023 --> 00:24:37,809.023 I'm not Right. 250 00:24:37,859.023 --> 00:24:42,539.023 Tapping fixes stuff, but when the medical stuff isn't. 251 00:24:42,929.023 --> 00:24:46,439.023 Isn't turning out to be something that's, found on a scan. 252 00:24:46,739.023 --> 00:24:54,209.023 We can still tap through symptoms and often find that there's a message in those symptoms or it may be some sort of meaning or lesson from them, and that can be really helpful. 253 00:24:54,219.023 --> 00:25:01,699.023 one of my clients is a ob gyn and she was having middle chest pain That would come up related to being overwhelmed and stuff. 254 00:25:01,699.023 --> 00:25:11,589.023 And so we tapped on that and she was trying to make that pain go away and she learned to see that pain as an indicator that she's not okay and that she needs to take a moment for herself. 255 00:25:11,589.023 --> 00:25:14,379.023 And obviously you could be like, of course that is. 256 00:25:14,379.023 --> 00:25:17,279.023 But the tapping actually shifts the way people think about it. 257 00:25:17,279.023 --> 00:25:19,379.023 And she came to that conclusion herself. 258 00:25:19,889.023 --> 00:25:21,719.023 Through tapping as I facilitated it. 259 00:25:21,719.023 --> 00:25:29,129.023 She actually was able to connect in with that because tapping opens up this healing mechanism in our body. 260 00:25:29,179.023 --> 00:25:35,359.023 It really allows people to connect into their own intuition in a way that a lot of us. 261 00:25:35,809.023 --> 00:25:46,939.023 Have maybe either never been able to do or forgotten how to do because we're just constantly hit with a barrage of stress and taught to disconnect from our bodies, honestly. 262 00:25:47,59.023 --> 00:25:48,874.023 In order to survive and move forward. 263 00:25:49,404.023 --> 00:26:04,274.023 With the EFT, do you have to continue doing it to achieve the benefits or is it like a certain amount of time that you do it and then you may come back to it again for something different or maybe the same thing? All the above. 264 00:26:04,279.023 --> 00:26:04,519.023 Okay. 265 00:26:04,519.023 --> 00:26:05,159.023 All the above. 266 00:26:05,414.023 --> 00:26:20,544.023 There are certain things like if you tap through a trauma, a traumatic event you go through it in such a way that ideally it no longer has an emotional impact on you and is no longer in your body impacting your emotional responses to that trauma. 267 00:26:20,544.023 --> 00:26:20,723.023 And other. 268 00:26:21,628.023 --> 00:26:22,858.023 things related to that trauma. 269 00:26:23,338.023 --> 00:26:25,438.023 And so we, we do that. 270 00:26:25,443.023 --> 00:26:40,933.023 And so it may shift the way people feel about their bodies or it may shift the way someone, and that's not something that goes away, that's something that is lasting and trauma is complex, and there may be other aspects of a trauma that come up for someone later that they wanna work on. 271 00:26:41,373.023 --> 00:26:45,383.023 Sometimes you tap on something and when you're tapping, you have this it's like a pain scale. 272 00:26:45,383.023 --> 00:26:46,403.023 You tap from zero to 10. 273 00:26:47,348.023 --> 00:26:51,878.023 10 being the most intense of something and zero being it's completely gone. 274 00:26:52,928.023 --> 00:27:03,538.023 I was trained that we wanna get down to zero, but what I've really learned over time is that sometimes zero isn't necessary or desirable. 275 00:27:03,988.023 --> 00:27:08,603.023 If someone's grieving the loss of a parent, we don't need to get them to a zero. 276 00:27:08,603.023 --> 00:27:15,743.023 Like they're grieving the loss of a parent and so it's, can I get myself regulated? Can I get myself so I can breathe again so I can. 277 00:27:16,508.023 --> 00:27:26,748.023 Care for myself so I can do the next thing, so I can go see my next patient so I can be there for my kid or my friends or whatever. 278 00:27:26,988.023 --> 00:27:31,248.023 So sometimes getting from a nine in intensity to a six is a huge victory. 279 00:27:31,458.023 --> 00:27:31,698.023 Yeah. 280 00:27:32,418.023 --> 00:27:34,578.023 And we're not, we don't need to get to a zero. 281 00:27:34,628.023 --> 00:27:35,888.023 We'll get there when we wanna get there. 282 00:27:35,888.023 --> 00:27:41,498.023 So hopping is something that you can use once a day, once a week, once a month, once a year, and it still works. 283 00:27:42,3.023 --> 00:28:02,163.023 Sometimes the results are long lasting and sometimes it comes back, but generally for the most part, it's gonna help in that moment to feel more regulated I'm hoping that in addition to my regular listeners, that there may be some physicians, and I do know that doctors do listen to my podcast. 284 00:28:02,283.023 --> 00:28:03,813.023 So I'm curious to know. 285 00:28:04,368.023 --> 00:28:22,488.023 in terms of trauma for physicians, whether it's coming from the workplace or other stuff that physicians go through, trauma, that is, how does it manifest amongst doctors? Do you see certain patterns? Yeah, I think there's, there's lots of things. 286 00:28:22,488.023 --> 00:28:34,418.023 There's burnout, I think and that distancing, that closed off feeling disconnecting from our bodies resenting the work. 287 00:28:35,48.023 --> 00:28:44,618.023 If we get a call or we get a consult or we get an extra admission or whatever that, I think that combative feeling that can sometimes happen with a patient when the patient. 288 00:28:45,53.023 --> 00:28:53,173.023 Pushes back or if the patient's being difficult? I think we've probably all had the experience of being yelled at or mistreated by patients or their families. 289 00:28:53,223.023 --> 00:28:55,503.023 I know I certainly have had that in the hospital many times. 290 00:28:55,503.023 --> 00:28:55,623.023 Yes. 291 00:28:56,253.023 --> 00:28:58,953.023 And that, that doesn't go away. 292 00:28:58,983.023 --> 00:29:02,103.023 if we don't process it it'll show up in other ways. 293 00:29:02,103.023 --> 00:29:04,593.023 We may be more irritable, we may be more reactive. 294 00:29:04,968.023 --> 00:29:08,418.023 There's a lot of symptoms that are like emotional things that are the result of trauma. 295 00:29:08,418.023 --> 00:29:11,838.023 But we don't, we just think, oh, I'm depressed, or, oh, I'm anxious. 296 00:29:12,108.023 --> 00:29:14,298.023 Perfectionism can be a result of it. 297 00:29:14,478.023 --> 00:29:24,378.023 Anxiety, depression physical symptoms, chronic headaches, chronic back pain irritable bowel, like all that kind of stuff can be a result of. 298 00:29:24,753.023 --> 00:29:29,753.023 Trauma the body doesn't necessarily respond to different kinds of trauma in different ways. 299 00:29:31,253.023 --> 00:29:41,643.023 Yes, there are gonna be times where I wanna fight, and yes, there are gonna be times where my response is to run away or to shut down, but in my body, trauma is trauma. 300 00:29:41,703.023 --> 00:29:49,173.023 And so if it's patient care related, if it's training related, if it's a car accident, if it's reading the news. 301 00:29:50,403.023 --> 00:29:51,903.023 It all impacts us the same way. 302 00:29:51,903.023 --> 00:29:54,843.023 So it can happen to physicians 'cause we're swimming in this trauma. 303 00:29:55,53.023 --> 00:29:56,373.023 It happens to other people too. 304 00:29:56,373.023 --> 00:30:00,443.023 And all of those emotions and symptoms can be present in trauma as well. 305 00:30:00,783.023 --> 00:30:11,103.023 The depersonalization going through the motions and not feeling connected, that lack of empathy or compassion that sometimes I think healthcare professionals may feel is a result of trauma. 306 00:30:12,408.023 --> 00:30:21,938.023 And it's, I think for people who love to care, it can be really distressing to not care, to not have it. 307 00:30:21,968.023 --> 00:30:25,918.023 Like I know I felt that way when I had really bad burnout. 308 00:30:25,918.023 --> 00:30:30,358.023 I was like, I'm going through the motions because I'm a good person and I'm not gonna let anyone die right now. 309 00:30:30,868.023 --> 00:30:33,328.023 That I don't, I'm not emotionally invested in this. 310 00:30:33,328.023 --> 00:30:35,328.023 I'm just doing it like a puppet almost. 311 00:30:35,538.023 --> 00:30:48,498.023 So yeah, there's a ton of ways and the way we the way we treat our residents, the way we, there's just so many things because being wrong is not okay, and that's ingrained in us. 312 00:30:48,498.023 --> 00:30:51,768.023 So when that gets threatened, I think it threatens, this is my personal opinion. 313 00:30:51,768.023 --> 00:30:53,298.023 we're trained that we're supposed to know. 314 00:30:53,298.023 --> 00:31:01,418.023 And so when we don't know, that can be almost like an existential threat and that can feel traumatic as well, even though we're still actually physically safe. 315 00:31:03,188.023 --> 00:31:08,818.023 to be challenged or to not have the answer can feel what I'm supposed to have the answer I'm supposed to know. 316 00:31:08,818.023 --> 00:31:11,578.023 And so those are some other ways it can come up. 317 00:31:12,398.023 --> 00:31:16,328.023 I think there's also, and not to say that this is a patient. 318 00:31:16,638.023 --> 00:31:26,88.023 Fault or issue, but I think society there's an expectation that we should know everything, that we should, know exactly what's going on. 319 00:31:26,88.023 --> 00:31:27,408.023 And especially now with. 320 00:31:28,123.023 --> 00:31:36,163.023 Social media and AI and all sorts of stuff, right? It's, the information is spreading so fast right there at times. 321 00:31:36,163.023 --> 00:31:40,663.023 I have to take a breather just to be able to catch up on all that stuff. 322 00:31:41,33.023 --> 00:31:42,353.023 And it's obviously not a breather. 323 00:31:42,353.023 --> 00:31:47,783.023 I'm still doing work, right? But I, it, a lot of us, it is us. 324 00:31:48,518.023 --> 00:31:58,318.023 Believing that we do have to be perfect because these are the type of people that go into medicine, right? I don't come from a medical background and there are no other doctors in my family. 325 00:31:59,68.023 --> 00:32:02,548.023 And then it took me some time to realize like I was primed. 326 00:32:02,548.023 --> 00:32:04,18.023 I've always wanted to be a doctor. 327 00:32:04,528.023 --> 00:32:09,198.023 There was nothing really else that, aside from maybe music and that was just a pipe dream. 328 00:32:09,198.023 --> 00:32:20,878.023 'cause my parents would never have allowed a career in music, But it's those very things that turn on us as well, because we cannot know everything. 329 00:32:20,998.023 --> 00:32:22,468.023 We're still human beings. 330 00:32:23,578.023 --> 00:32:30,648.023 So I think, when I was in residency and I would talk to my, my friends who are training in psychiatry. 331 00:32:31,383.023 --> 00:32:40,183.023 I was secretly envious of them because I found out that they had the opportunity to go through therapy and I was like, what? You get therapy? And they're like, yeah. 332 00:32:40,183.023 --> 00:32:43,893.023 A lot of this stuff that, we go through during residency we're able to talk through it. 333 00:32:44,893.023 --> 00:32:49,813.023 And I can tell you that was not a thing in internal medicine at all. 334 00:32:50,593.023 --> 00:32:55,608.023 And I was like, maybe I should have taken psychiatry instead just to be able to go through therapy. 335 00:32:55,658.023 --> 00:32:58,558.023 But don't you think, if I had to design. 336 00:32:58,893.023 --> 00:33:04,713.023 A system aside from the moneymaking and all of that's happening right now. 337 00:33:04,743.023 --> 00:33:08,383.023 Mine I think yours would too look, would look completely different. 338 00:33:08,773.023 --> 00:33:15,563.023 I think every doctor would be, doing some type of EFT or, and or in therapy. 339 00:33:15,628.023 --> 00:33:18,928.023 And I think we would actually make a lot of progress. 340 00:33:19,308.023 --> 00:33:26,778.023 I think we would be happier, patients would be happier because we would be healing while we're treating and healing others. 341 00:33:27,208.023 --> 00:33:29,488.023 And that's sorely lacking at this point. 342 00:33:29,878.023 --> 00:33:35,948.023 And it's very sad for me to see as a woman, as a mom, as a. 343 00:33:36,338.023 --> 00:33:37,178.023 As a physician. 344 00:33:37,178.023 --> 00:33:48,458.023 I also worry when my kids say that they, wanna go into medicine, part of me is a little proud, a little bit, but a large part of me is I don't know if I want you to go through that trauma. 345 00:33:49,268.023 --> 00:33:49,508.023 Yeah. 346 00:33:51,308.023 --> 00:33:54,668.023 Because there was nobody around to tell me what medicine would be like. 347 00:33:54,668.023 --> 00:33:56,438.023 I had to figure it out for myself. 348 00:33:56,538.023 --> 00:33:58,63.023 But I now know so. 349 00:33:58,423.023 --> 00:34:04,988.023 You know what's funny is I had people tell me, I'm from a family of doctors and that told me not to do it, but other people told me not to do it. 350 00:34:05,768.023 --> 00:34:07,588.023 What did I do? I was like, whatever. 351 00:34:07,648.023 --> 00:34:09,508.023 You don't know, it's gonna be different for me. 352 00:34:09,508.023 --> 00:34:12,658.023 And the problems that they were talking about were like, we're not God anymore. 353 00:34:12,688.023 --> 00:34:20,68.023 Problems are different now but it's like when you want it, even if someone's there telling you not to do it, that sometimes makes you wanna do it even more. 354 00:34:20,68.023 --> 00:34:24,818.023 And I, honestly, there's so many beautiful things about practicing medicine and being part of that community. 355 00:34:25,178.023 --> 00:34:32,288.023 Things that I miss and also whenever people come to me and they want advice about it, I'm like, if there's anything else that you want to do that. 356 00:34:33,188.023 --> 00:34:36,728.023 And if you, all you wanna do is go into medicine, then do it. 357 00:34:36,778.023 --> 00:34:40,68.023 But just try to think of things that you might do instead. 358 00:34:41,563.023 --> 00:34:43,153.023 I still have joyous moments. 359 00:34:43,153.023 --> 00:34:44,323.023 I still do, yeah. 360 00:34:44,323.023 --> 00:34:44,953.023 Within medicine. 361 00:34:44,953.023 --> 00:34:49,343.023 And a lot of them are unexpected and it's not material gifts or anything. 362 00:34:49,343.023 --> 00:34:56,333.023 It's just maybe a patient card saying that, you made such a huge difference in my life and I'll never forget that. 363 00:34:56,363.023 --> 00:34:59,363.023 And I'm still, there are times that I'm still drawn to tears. 364 00:35:00,208.023 --> 00:35:16,158.023 And just, I think it was this week where one of my kids asked me so do you literally save lives? Have you literally saved a person's life? And I didn't know how to answer that, but the real answer is yes. 365 00:35:16,678.023 --> 00:35:23,588.023 whether, and they were like was it in the hospital or where you are right now in your office? I was like, actually both. 366 00:35:24,368.023 --> 00:35:29,978.023 It looked very different, and my daughter was like, you should be so proud of yourself. 367 00:35:29,978.023 --> 00:35:34,658.023 And I was like, honestly, you don't really sit there and pat yourself on the back for it. 368 00:35:35,28.023 --> 00:35:42,768.023 It's a very humbling moment where you're like, wow, I've been given the ability, the gift to be able to help others. 369 00:35:43,248.023 --> 00:35:44,658.023 And so I think. 370 00:35:45,238.023 --> 00:35:54,148.023 It's sad that there's so much change that's happening in medicine now, and I do hope, I don't know if you and I will see that change happen. 371 00:35:54,488.023 --> 00:36:09,48.023 But in the meantime, it's people like you who are making a big difference in and helping others get through the traumatic moments of their lives and exploring other ways of helping people. 372 00:36:10,548.023 --> 00:36:14,528.023 So we talked a lot about EFT and meditation as well. 373 00:36:15,8.023 --> 00:36:27,888.023 Is there something that we haven't touched on that you absolutely wanna talk about in this podcast? A huge part of who I am and what I do is social justice work and anti-oppression work. 374 00:36:28,398.023 --> 00:36:30,468.023 It's like its own thing. 375 00:36:31,248.023 --> 00:36:35,628.023 It's like a whole other topic and something that's very important to me. 376 00:36:35,628.023 --> 00:36:43,868.023 And look, most of what I've really learned about it and like the deep introspection I've done has been since I left healthcare. 377 00:36:43,868.023 --> 00:36:53,248.023 And so I do look back and I see all the ways that I contributed to a system that causes harm That is something that I feel like is also super important for doctors to learn. 378 00:36:53,248.023 --> 00:37:02,988.023 Like none of us think we're causing harm, but I don't, I can't speak, I can't say everybody's causing harm, but we're participating in a system that causes harm, so we're complicit in that way. 379 00:37:02,988.023 --> 00:37:04,578.023 There's lots to explore there. 380 00:37:04,878.023 --> 00:37:06,348.023 Maybe in the last parts of a podcast. 381 00:37:06,358.023 --> 00:37:09,988.023 It's not there, but it's a huge part of what informs me and the work that I do. 382 00:37:10,648.023 --> 00:37:15,38.023 I did look at your blog and some of the work that you do and that, there is. 383 00:37:15,553.023 --> 00:37:19,233.023 A lot of racism in healthcare, that you talk about. 384 00:37:19,623.023 --> 00:37:24,43.023 So how do those two, how do those two things meet for you? I always thought. 385 00:37:24,748.023 --> 00:37:26,938.023 I was like one of the good white ones. 386 00:37:27,598.023 --> 00:37:30,928.023 I'm a nice liberal white lady and I always thought I'm not racist. 387 00:37:30,928.023 --> 00:37:34,408.023 Like I care about black people and people who are not white. 388 00:37:35,308.023 --> 00:37:43,768.023 And when I finished my meditation teacher training and after the 2016 election, I wrote a blog post called we're gonna be okay, I promise. 389 00:37:43,848.023 --> 00:37:49,908.023 And I had a acquaintance reach out and say, Hey, I read your blog post and it's really privileged. 390 00:37:51,138.023 --> 00:37:52,308.023 And I was like, I'm not racist. 391 00:37:52,308.023 --> 00:37:56,958.023 What are you talking about? Like I was super defensive, but then I was like I don't wanna be, whatever it is. 392 00:37:56,958.023 --> 00:38:01,583.023 I didn't understand the term I am, I embodied it, but I didn't understand what it meant. 393 00:38:01,673.023 --> 00:38:02,873.023 I wasn't aware of it. 394 00:38:03,243.023 --> 00:38:03,813.023 Privilege. 395 00:38:03,813.023 --> 00:38:08,703.023 And so I started doing a bunch of reading probably to prove her wrong, but like it totally proved her right. 396 00:38:08,703.023 --> 00:38:09,513.023 And I was like. 397 00:38:09,668.023 --> 00:38:12,428.023 I've got a lot of learning to do and this is like really bad. 398 00:38:12,428.023 --> 00:38:29,418.023 And so I never intended on being like a professional anti-racism educator 'cause whatever, I'm a white lady, what do I have to share with anybody? But what I started to realize over time, and I did an allyship training in 2019 that I'm actually like pretty good at. 399 00:38:29,993.023 --> 00:38:40,413.023 Recognizing that I'm wrong and learning and moving through defensiveness and modeling that I'm not perfect and that I have humility around it. 400 00:38:40,463.023 --> 00:38:47,993.023 understanding that like I'm part of the problem and teaching that to people I think that was because of my meditation practice, and tapping, like it has helped me to regulate my nervous system. 401 00:38:47,993.023 --> 00:38:58,733.023 So it doesn't feel necessarily like a full fledged fight or flight every time I'm wrong, or every time I learn that there's something I can do better. 402 00:38:59,163.023 --> 00:39:02,773.023 Conscious anti-racism, that's my anti-racism and anti-oppression. 403 00:39:03,43.023 --> 00:39:07,383.023 Company was born there at that retreat that training. 404 00:39:07,533.023 --> 00:39:10,503.023 And then in 2020 I connected with Dr. 405 00:39:10,508.023 --> 00:39:12,753.023 Maisha Clairborne, who is my partner in that work. 406 00:39:12,853.023 --> 00:39:14,653.023 Because all the reasons, she's a black woman. 407 00:39:14,653.023 --> 00:39:15,403.023 I'm a white woman. 408 00:39:15,453.023 --> 00:39:18,813.023 We model the work together in our relationship. 409 00:39:18,963.023 --> 00:39:23,493.023 We share our different lived experiences with our clients and people who we're working with. 410 00:39:23,493.023 --> 00:39:28,403.023 And so she has incredible talents and skillset that she brings to our work. 411 00:39:28,403.023 --> 00:39:31,913.023 And so we've been working together for the last five years, really. 412 00:39:32,243.023 --> 00:39:34,733.023 And so it, I never really thought it was gonna be. 413 00:39:35,948.023 --> 00:39:40,88.023 I wanted it to be impactful, but I didn't really know how I would be impactful. 414 00:39:40,358.023 --> 00:39:49,388.023 And I think and now we have, we've worked with large organizations and we have a CME accredited anti-racism training that individuals can take or larger organizations. 415 00:39:49,388.023 --> 00:39:51,38.023 So it's been really amazing. 416 00:39:51,38.023 --> 00:39:52,908.023 And I, I'm humbled every day by it. 417 00:39:52,908.023 --> 00:39:54,198.023 I use tapping in that work. 418 00:39:54,198.023 --> 00:40:03,288.023 I use, we use mindfulness and self-compassion and all sorts of other kind of ways, communication skills. 419 00:40:03,288.023 --> 00:40:15,918.023 Also, all the stuff that I practice, we apply to this work to give people tools to like actually have it be okay to get uncomfortable and to actually learn and try to see things from a new lens. 420 00:40:16,368.023 --> 00:40:16,548.023 Yeah. 421 00:40:17,163.023 --> 00:40:20,493.023 So yeah that's the, I think that's the fairly long version of the story. 422 00:40:20,858.023 --> 00:40:21,148.023 Okay. 423 00:40:23,673.023 --> 00:40:39,143.023 And I do obviously know how to find you, but for our listeners, if we wanted to learn more about you both, the work that you do with anti-racism as well as as a private practitioner, where can we fund you? My website's a good place. 424 00:40:39,203.023 --> 00:40:40,343.023 Jill wiener.com 425 00:40:40,343.023 --> 00:40:45,143.023 and my last name is W-E-N-E-R, so it's J-I-L-L-W-E-N-E r.com, 426 00:40:45,503.023 --> 00:40:46,703.023 and that's gonna have everything. 427 00:40:46,753.023 --> 00:40:49,993.023 And then I'm on Instagram at Jill Wiener, md. 428 00:40:50,233.023 --> 00:40:51,193.023 I'm on LinkedIn. 429 00:40:51,303.023 --> 00:40:53,473.023 And those are the main social media. 430 00:40:53,513.023 --> 00:41:00,33.023 I'm on Blue Sky, but I'm not active on it and I'm off Twitter and I don't really use Facebook that much for anything. 431 00:41:00,33.023 --> 00:41:01,353.023 I have professional pages, but I don't. 432 00:41:02,748.023 --> 00:41:03,258.023 Use them. 433 00:41:03,368.023 --> 00:41:03,568.023 Okay. 434 00:41:04,428.023 --> 00:41:07,143.023 Instagram, LinkedIn, and and my website. 435 00:41:07,923.023 --> 00:41:08,433.023 Awesome. 436 00:41:08,523.023 --> 00:41:11,283.023 So I'll make sure to include everything in the show notes. 437 00:41:11,433.023 --> 00:41:13,833.023 Thank you so much for being with us today. 438 00:41:14,203.023 --> 00:41:21,598.023 It was enlightening talking with you and sharing this moment and I do think that this will make an awesome podcast when it does come out. 439 00:41:22,108.023 --> 00:41:22,738.023 Thanks for having me. 440 00:41:22,738.023 --> 00:41:23,698.023 I really appreciate it so much. 441 00:41:23,748.023 --> 00:41:27,848.023 And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast. 442 00:41:28,398.023 --> 00:41:32,188.023 Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says. 443 00:41:32,488.023 --> 00:41:36,148.023 Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.