October 31, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of Soma Says, host Dr. Soma Mandal, newly appointed Medical Director of Women’s Health at Hackensack Meridian Health, shares exciting updates about her new role at Jersey Shore University Medical Center and the mission to advance comprehensive, compassionate women’s care.
Joining Dr. Soma is Dr. Robert Kane, CEO of Kane Thermal Imaging, for a fascinating look into how thermal imaging technology is transforming medicine. Together, they explore the science behind this non-invasive diagnostic tool and its diverse applications — from early breast cancer detection and chronic pain management to sports performance and hormonal health.
Dr. Kane explains how thermal imaging captures subtle temperature changes to identify inflammation, vascular issues, and physiological patterns before they become disease, highlighting its potential as a complementary tool to traditional diagnostics.
This conversation sheds light on the future of functional imaging, AI integration, and women’s health innovation — offering listeners a glimpse into how technology can bridge prevention, precision, and empowerment in modern medicine.
Timeline00:00 Exciting New Role Announcement 01:32 Introduction to Dr. Robert Kane and Thermal Imaging 02:48 The Science Behind Thermal Imaging 05:17 Thermal Imaging in Breast Cancer Detection 08:03 Thermal Imaging for Pain and Other Conditions 13:28 Challenges and Adoption of Thermal Imaging 17:24 Future of Thermal Imaging and AI 17:58 Non-Medical Uses of Thermal Imaging 18:59 Training and Certification in Thermal Imaging 30:23 Thermal Imaging in Sports and Diabetes 34:55 Thermal Imaging in Menopause and Hormone Therapy 37:34 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Connect with Dr. Robert Kane🌐 Website: www.kanethermalimaging.com
Connect with Dr. Soma Mandal🌐 Website: www.somamandalmd.com 🏥 Learn more about her upcoming work at Hackensack Meridian Health – Jersey Shore University Medical Center 📚 Book: Midlife Masala — available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo 🎧 Listen to Soma Says on Apple Podcasts, and YouTube at @SomaSays 📲 Instagram: @drsomamandalmd 💼 LinkedIn: Dr. Soma Mandal, MD
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I am thrilled to share some exciting news with all of you.
I've recently accepted the role of medical Director of Women's Health at Hackensack Meridian Health, specifically at Jersey Shore University Medical Center.
This new chapter is about so much more than a title.
It's about advancing women's health in a way that's comprehensive, compassionate.
(00:22):
Evidence-based.
My mission is to build a program that truly supports women at every stage of life from reproductive health through menopause and beyond.
Combining the best of modern medicine with the holistic approaches I've always believed in, and I will continue to see patients as well.
I'm deeply grateful to my patients, listeners, and community who continue to inspire this work every day.
(00:49):
There's so much more to come.
And I can't wait to share this journey with you right here on Soma says.
(01:32):
Today, ANMA says, I'm joined by Dr.
Robert Kain, the CEO and lead interpreter of Kain Thermal Imaging.
It's a company at the forefront of using infrared technology to uncover what often goes unseen with a background that bridges science, medicine, and innovation.
Dr.
Kane has dedicated his work to making thermal imaging a powerful tool for health and safety.
(01:59):
From detecting subtle patterns in the body that can point to inflammation or circulation issues to applying imaging in industrial safety, environmental monitoring, and even search and rescue.
His expertise is about turning invisible heat signatures into actionable knowledge.
Dr.
Kain is passionate about.
(02:20):
Education, ethics and innovation in this space, and his vision is to make thermal imaging both accessible and responsibly integrated into healthcare and beyond.
Dr.
Kane, welcome to Soma says, I'm excited to dive into this technology with you and how it's reshaping the way that world around us sees.
(02:44):
Thank you very much for having me.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
What inspired you to move into thermal imaging and how did you see the potential beyond the traditional applications? Yeah, great question.
So I'm a chiropractor by training.
I graduated back in the early 1990s and chiropractic was always a bit of a stigma in the medical profession because it wasn't quote unquote scientific.
(03:13):
And I had a background in physiology and anatomy, and I wanted to see what we could use to monitor the effects of chiropractic from a scientific basis.
And thermography became a great tool to do that.
It looked at nerve function, it looked at circulation, and for patients with pain problems, we were able to monitor them and track them in ways that weren't able to be done before.
(03:35):
Okay.
And what was the reason that you know, basically.
Saw that the thermal imaging was the way to go, was there something unique about thermal imaging that drew you to it? Or is it something that just felt that would benefit particularly women in terms of their health? For the thermal imaging, what I love is that it's a functional test, and most radiology is what we call anatomical or structural tests.
(04:06):
It shows you the parts of the body, if you will.
Where this shows actually how it's functioning.
is the metabolism working properly? Is the are the nerves firing properly? Is the circulation perfusing the body parts properly? And that became very exciting.
Can you explain to the audience how thermal imaging works so that they can understand? Okay.
(04:28):
The very basics is that when we're looking at thermal imaging, we're measuring heat.
Heat is actually discharged by the body in the form of infrared energy, and we have these very sophisticated cameras that actually collect that infrared information and create a heat map.
So I think the easiest way to think about it is when you go to the doctor, one of the first things they're gonna do is take your temperature.
(04:51):
that temperature, it doesn't necessarily mean there's a specific disease going on, but it's a general indication on how your body's functioning.
So with thermography, what we're doing is we're taking a heat picture of the body and looking at the patterns of the distribution of that heat.
Again, as a general indication of how is the body functioning and what systems might be compromised that we need to look at further.
(05:17):
How does thermal imaging complement rather than replace traditional medic medical diagnostics, like how does it complement a CAT scan or a mammogram or a breast ultrasound or any other imaging that you perhaps complement with this type of.
Yeah, I alluded to that with the first answer that I gave you and the key word here is it's functional testing.
(05:42):
Okay.
So for example, we're in breast cancer Awareness month in October, and there's a lot of focus on breast cancer right now, and the mammogram, while an important tool is looking at structural changes, are there calcium deposits, are there masses, things like that.
But what the thermogram offers is a functional component.
Is the tissue metabolism increased like cancer does? Are there changes to the blood supply and profusion like cancer can create? And when we use one piece of information with the other, we actually get closer to the target of an earlier diagnosis and better detection.
(06:20):
A lot of my patients are concerned about the radiation that comes along with an x-ray or a mammogram, or a CAT scan with thermal imaging.
Is radiation a concern? No, not at all.
And it's one of the benefits is that it's simply measuring the energy coming off to you, okay? It's not doing anything to your body.
(06:42):
So if I wanted to, I can literally measure a person with thermal imaging eight hours a day.
Four weeks at a time, and there's no exposure to them other than they're just having the test done.
Okay.
Yeah.
sometimes I like to explain, because let's say a patient may be afraid they're having a mammogram for the first time, they've never had it before, or they're having a CAT scan and they're scared about, being stuck in the tunnel.
(07:08):
Yeah, great question.
There's no coen or tunnel, so the claustrophobia is not an issue at all.
It's basically like getting your picture taken.
So a woman would go into a climate controlled room.
The room is a little on the cool side, but not terrible.
the area that we're measuring would need to be exposed.
So if there's a breast examination, she would need to be disrobed from the waist up.
(07:31):
Most centers doing this have female technicians and they have curtains so that the woman is, her modesty is protected.
Okay.
But at that point, she is literally positioned in front of the camera and told to move into certain positions and angles to make sure all the images can be captured.
Okay.
No compression, no radiation, no pain.
(07:51):
Yeah.
And those are some of the very common complaints that I get.
As you mentioned, mammogram is an important tool, but it can be very uncomfortable for some women.
What are some of the common health issues that you detect with thermal imaging that might otherwise go unnoticed? Okay.
(08:12):
Breast cancer is a big one.
It's been approved since the 1980s as an adjunct in breast cancer diagnosis.
We're seeing applications, in the holistic community for empowering women's breast health because it's a risk marker as well.
With pain conditions, it's helpful in looking at nerve injury, inflammation systemic problems and then some of the more exotic applications are looking at different types of headaches, dental infections, and metabolic disorders.
(08:40):
There's just a big wide gamut.
Okay.
And do you have any data as to how it works in terms of, aiding the detection of breast cancer or any other conditions? is there any data that you can share with us? Yeah, there's actually the historical data that I've been operating out of came really out of the late 19 eighties.
(09:05):
these were large scale retrospective studies looking at the number of cancers caught and looking at the difference in women that didn't have thermography versus the ones that did.
What was found was that thermography by itself had about an 80 to 90% detection rate, accuracy rate cross correlations with mammography, adding them together, brought that into the high nineties.
(09:28):
women that had thermography identify the cancer as the earliest sign tended to catch their cancers faster.
'cause those thermal signals were showing faster than the anatomical.
So they saw the thermal signal first.
they coordinated the anatomical studies and were able to catch things sooner.
Okay.
there are some women that are reluctant to have the mammograms, perhaps because it's uncomfortable for them, perhaps because they are worried about radiation and they would prefer thermal imaging.
(09:58):
What is your take on just having thermal imaging alone versus having both a mammogram, perhaps a breast ultrasound, and then thermal imaging as well? I think, again, it's a great question and let me just start off with I completely empathize with what women go through to get this test.
this is not something that I consider to be an issue to take lightly.
(10:21):
But what I will say is that mammography does still offer certain diagnostic information that the other tests don't.
So what we recommend is that women incorporate the thermography into the other testing.
If the woman's concerned about mammograms and she wants to see if an ultrasound's appropriate first, she can talk to her doctor about that.
But the thermograms designed to be incorporated with these other tests rather than to replace.
(10:45):
Okay.
I think that's important for our audience to hear because I don't want there to be an interpretation that we are saying mammography should be ignored, but rather this is basically using another type of diagnostic tool to help detect underlying disorders.
(11:07):
We've been talking about a lot about breast cancer.
You mentioned it's breast cancer awareness month.
What other conditions have you picked up with thermal imaging? Again, there's a gamut of them, but the ones that I've been particularly working with are pain syndromes.
Neuropathy, people that have a pinched nerve going into their hand.
One of my earliest actual experiences with tomography was looking at carpal tunnel syndrome patients back in the early 1990s.
(11:34):
This was the time of computers, so everybody was getting carpal tunnel syndrome and the hand surgeons had their hands full.
What we were finding in the chiropractic practice was that some of these surgeries were failed surgeries.
And the surgeons couldn't figure out why, because when they looked at the anatomical reconstruction of that carpal tunnel, it was perfect.
What we found with the thermography was that there were several other areas that nerve was being affected on.
(11:59):
So we were able to sit there, look at the thermal map and saying The reason why your hand's not better is 'cause we've got a problem in the neck and the shoulder and the elbow, and if we can get those three together, you're gonna get relief.
And we were seeing it.
That's interesting.
I would never have imagined that.
And as someone who's had a couple of EMGs electromyograph, which are never fun, no.
(12:22):
Would thermal imaging have picked up? this was from an injury I had a ulnar neuropathy.
As well as a median neuropathy as well.
so you were mentioning carpal tunnel, so that would've picked up, but would it also have picked up the ulnar neuropathy as.
I think there's a very good chance, 'cause the sensitivity is very good.
The sensitivity for neuropathies in the 90 percentile okay.
(12:44):
Nothing's a hundred percent, yeah.
This is part of the messaging that we're giving to pain doctors is that.
You think it's one thing, but let's check a few other systems in a different manner to see if we have multiple causes.
I think the idea of one, cause one cure is being replaced now in the functional community, at least with multiple factors colliding, creating, a cluster of symptomatology.
(13:09):
That's, it's very interesting to me because when I have looked for thermal imaging and I'm in New Jersey there.
Doesn't seem to be very many places here unless this is being done out of individual practitioner's office that I, I don't know about.
So in your experience, how are you getting the message across to doctors such as myself, about thermal imaging and are they embracing it or are they reluctant to use it? Yeah.
(13:43):
Again, a great question.
And I'd say the overall tone is there's a reluctancy, it's new, and they're not seeing it through their associations.
And this was, these were some frank conversations with medical doctors, and there's a concern about liability, and there's a concern about being so cutting edge that they've gone past their limits of comfort.
(14:05):
So we're getting some reluctancy there, but then we've got some innovators that are saying, no, there are really some safe ways we can experiment with this technology and incorporate it and really not necessarily put anyone at risk doing it.
We're seeing some adaptation in the pain area.
Another place we're seeing it is chronic venous insufficiency.
Women that have, and men as well, that are getting swelling in their legs.
(14:28):
It's usually diagnosed by symptoms before the ultrasound, but there's some doctors right now that have some literature showing that if they use the thermogram as a way to direct the ultrasound, they're catching the insufficiency sooner.
I'm surprised to hear that you are meeting reluctance, although.
Doctors by tradition tend to be very conservative.
(14:52):
Yeah.
So how do you get the message across? Is thermal imaging usually covered by insurance and if not what are the roundabout cost factors that.
Patients have to face, if they choose to have thermal imaging.
Yeah.
Thermal imaging's not reimbursable by insurance except in rare situations.
(15:12):
So the price point is usually, for breast examination, maybe a couple hundred dollars.
It's not that expensive.
And I think the place where we're seeing good adoption is in the functional medicine community.
the functional medicine community is more likely to use a concierge medicine model, meaning, we understand that these things are uncovered by insurance, but we're trying to make them available.
(15:34):
So they're working with the different tests, the laboratories, and they're the more likely to add something like this onto their practice than let's say, a traditional insurance-based practice.
Yeah.
What standards do you have in place so that you know that the imaging is being interpreted accurately and responsibly? Can you share that with our audience? Yeah, absolutely.
(15:57):
If you're looking for a thermal imaging center, it should be interpreted by certified doctors that have been certified in thermography.
If they're doing breast, they should have some sort of additional training In breast imaging, myself, I've gone through two certification programs.
I'm actually, a 30 years experience going through a third.
'cause the Brazilians have some great stuff that I wanted to learn.
I also did an internship with Dr.
(16:18):
William Hobbins, who's one of the early pioneers of breast demography.
Even though I'm a chiropractor, I made sure I got the additional training.
So I was responsibly working with these materials.
Getting back to something that you said earlier, you said that thermal imaging has been around for a while.
Yeah.
Why do you think it just never took really? Why are other modalities being used and why did thermal imaging get left behind? Yeah, great question.
(16:44):
I think it's a combination of things.
Number one.
I don't think that prior to the 1980s, the concept of functional medicine really got into vogue.
I remember hearing about it through Dr.
Jeff Bland in the 1990s, and it was just starting to get traction.
Okay.
So thermography was coming.
(17:05):
it didn't really get to be used from a functional model.
Now, if you're using it to make a diagnosis, it's probably not gonna do that.
It's gonna help you get there and maybe even faster, but it's not gonna be that one test that does it.
Okay.
I think there was just some resistance to that methodology of thinking.
Do you see AI playing a role in thermal imaging interpretation in the future? It's already happening currently.
(17:32):
Okay.
there's a company right now out of India that's got one of the first research backed AI programs to look at breast analysis.
It's introduced in the US in a limited basis because of the way the FDA works, but their literature is sound and we're seeing more and more of that in the pain specialties and in the metabolic specialties as well.
So I think we're just starting to see the ability to acquire tools that interpreters can use right now.
(17:57):
Okay.
Are there any non medicinal uses of thermal imaging? I'm just curious because I'm relatively new to it.
are there any other uses that thermal imaging can provide? This is not particularly my specialty, but thermography or thermal imaging came into being in the medical applications because of what they were using in the military.
(18:19):
Ah, They were using it to spot ships over the horizon.
Oh, wow.
They could see heat signatures before.
Okay.
If any of you have seen television shows with night vision or thermal vision, it's exactly what you're seeing.
Applications are in semiconductors welding of airplane parts to make sure airplane is solid before it goes up in the air.
(18:39):
All of these kinds of things making sure boats don't leak.
All of these are applications for thermal imaging.
And Dr.
Kane how long have you been in practice I've been in practice since 1991.
Okay.
And you're still seeing patients at this time? I gave up my chiropractic practice in 2008.
Okay, got it.
And since then, I've basically been doing thermal imaging interpretation for other centers and training.
(19:04):
And so what type are you training technicians or other practitioners who actually read the imaging itself? What kind of training do you provide? Yeah.
My personal training is technicians.
So that they can set up laboratories, get paired with interpreters, or learn how to interpret themselves, but know how to do it correctly.
Okay.
(19:24):
For interpretation training, I leave that to the associations just simply because there's specialties that.
Are not mine.
And I think they need a well-rounded background that's goes beyond just what I have to offer.
Okay.
So in the, at the time that perhaps that you were practicing were you using thermal imaging at that time? Up until 2008, all the time.
(19:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
And can you share a story where thermal imaging revealed something life changing for a patient or a client? Yeah, I'll take it right back to breast cancer.
Okay.
Because I had a woman, she'd been getting her annual mammograms.
Everything looked good.
She was told, you're fine.
Everything's going well.
And she came in and we did a breast thermogram on her and we noticed a lot of blood vessel activity.
(20:12):
One blood vessels in the upper outer quadrant of her left breast.
I sent her back to her doctor.
Her doctor blew it off and said, look, she had a normal mammogram.
There's nothing to worry about.
Okay.
Three months later it got worse.
Wow.
At this point, I'm on the phone with the doctor saying, can't we run something else? And ultrasound and MRI, she reluctantly agreed to run the tests.
(20:34):
MRI found the diagnosis.
Wow.
Because we push those additional tests based upon the thermal data, and that's the value because it just says, look here and look harder.
Yeah.
how frustrating that you had to push that hard to advocate for your patient.
(20:55):
It's unfortunate, but it's just the nature of the adaptation curve.
Being in chiropractic and now being in thermal imaging, my friends laugh at me.
They said, you always tend to look at the underdog, the one that's not necessarily in vogue and accepted.
And I said, somebody's gotta do it.
Someone has to take that stand and show the world that there's a place to look here that they haven't been looking.
(21:16):
Yes.
if I could do that it's very gratifying.
I do believe that when we do things like that, like you have just described, right? It's not for the sake of having good things always returned to us.
But I do feel like you did a good deed.
You performed a service For your patient and that doesn't go unrecognized.
(21:36):
Yeah.
Tell us about your about cane thermal imaging.
How many centers do you have? And where are they located? Okay, so Cane Thermal Imaging is simply an interpretation company, Okay.
I do have contracts, but I don't have ownership in those different facilities.
Okay.
Within the contract though, they are contractually obligated to follow standard guidelines, procedures, quality controls.
(22:00):
If they're not doing that, I won't read for them.
It's just as simple as that.
Okay.
Currently I'm working with approximately 60 centers across the us, Europe, and Canada.
I have one center in Israel I'm working with right now.
Most of them are doing a certain amount of breast imaging.
But a lot of them are involved with pain imaging as well as just looking at metabolic conditions and, things like thyroids and diabetes and things like that.
(22:25):
Where do you where is your vision for cane thermal imaging in the next, let's say five years? I personally hate that question when people ask me what my vision is for the next five years.
I think day to day.
But what is your vision for the next five to 10 years? What I would love is just greater collaboration and integration.
I'd love to see the company being more involved in active research.
(22:47):
Yeah.
There's a methodology to look at the activity of estrogen in the breasts.
It's really great for postmenopausal women That have breast pain or breast cysts or fibrocystic breasts.
And I'm very comfortable doing it.
But at the same time, I think we need to start going through the scientific rigor process.
So I see us more involved in research.
(23:07):
I also see me more involved in public outreach and education.
This is a step in that I want to make sure that the general public understands.
What the potential is so that they're asking for it.
Because I think change happens in the world, not just when the powers and the authorities deem it's ready, but when the masses sit there and say, Hey, we're looking for something more, and there's a little bit of a push from the patient side of it as well.
(23:31):
Doing the podcast is part of that.
Just making sure that the general public understands what the potential is.
Because I think because.
As we educate doctors, that's part of the equation, but I think if patients are asking for it as well, that helps us work both sides of the equation and we're more likely to get an adaptation of the technology and then reap the benefits that comes with that.
(23:54):
How do you get the message out to the general public about thermal imaging? I think for the general public, it's a matter of really looking at specific conditions And showing them how they can empower themselves with knowledge.
Okay.
For breast cancer one of the biggest messages that I crafted back in the mid 1990s, early two thousands was that a woman can actually start to take control of her own health.
(24:18):
She doesn't have to wait for the positive test that says she has cancer.
She can identify biomarkers.
On breast thermography and then take action with lifestyle and diet.
Yeah, to I think there's opportunities.
No, I think that is the right thinking and unfortunately with traditional medicine it's almost like we're waiting for something to happen and we're not necessarily educating our patients about what they can do preventatively.
(24:47):
Yeah.
me, as you mentioned, the biomarkers.
Perhaps, obviously diet and exercise.
And stress is a big one as well, but we're often focused on just getting the test done.
Okay.
Your mammogram is fine.
We'll see you, we'll do another one next year.
But we don't necessarily focus on the preventative.
(25:08):
Peter aia who is a doctor out there about lifestyle medicine, often calls it Medicine 3.0
where he talks more about preventative and lifestyle and what we can do to prevent these things from happening rather than waiting for it to happen.
So it sounds like your mantra somewhat goes along with that.
Not, just say, okay, your tests are fine.
(25:31):
Like the example that you used with your patient who you had multiple thermal imaging where they, you were seeing the vessels, we wouldn't have necessarily seen that, it sounds like on a traditional mammogram or even an ultrasound.
No, and I think the Medicine 3.0
model is the way to go.
I love Peter Atia and I love his model, and I think thermography is the missing piece with Medicine 3.0
(25:55):
with breast care and in many other systems because it is giving you that functional component.
Yeah.
It's modifiable, meaning if you have a genetic marker for breast cancer, that's good knowledge, but that can't be changed, right? Thermography is one of the few things that could give you non-invasive feedback instantly.
So what would you see on thermography? Let's say you advised a patient to have a healthier lifestyle.
(26:21):
What would you see on thermography that would change? The idea is that symmetry is the rule.
That's the model.
The idea is that the right and the left should be fairly symmetrical.
And when we see asymmetries and when the asymmetries are caused by certain patterns of temperature, we then correlate that with a risk for breast cancer.
(26:41):
And indeed we've seen that women that have, positive thermal findings have a 22 greater times likelihood of developing cancer than women that didn't.
So it's a biomarker, it's not a guarantee.
So if a woman started changing her diet and doing things to promote her breast health, we would look to see for a return towards greater sym.
(27:04):
It may not be a hundred percent, but if we got from significantly asymmetrical to only moderately or moderately to mild, we know we're going in the right direction, and that's great feedback.
Okay.
Is the machine that you use for thermal imaging, is it something that's portable? Is it something that a patient stands up next to for the imaging, No, they're highly portable.
(27:27):
Some of the more sophisticated devices are, they look like a little rectangle.
some of the smaller ones may be looking at the size of a regular camera.
Okay.
But basically they just plug into the computer so that the thermal data can be converted to a picture using software.
Okay.
Fascinating.
If a person was to look for thermal imaging would there be certain certifications that she should look out for? How for example, I mentioned I myself have tried to help my patients for, to look for thermal imaging for them.
(28:01):
Yeah.
What would I look for that would tell me that this is reputable, trustworthy? How would I help my patients that way? Yeah.
I think with certification goes the two associations that I'm a part of is the International Academy of Clinical Thermology.
And the American Academy of Thermology.
Okay.
those are science-based medical profession.
(28:24):
They're multidisciplinary, but they're medically run associations that have credible guidelines and credible standards.
There are others out there.
at the minimum, make sure that they're certified by an association.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So those are pearls that I'll, make sure that I write down.
So when I do look for it, I'll make sure that the certification is there.
I think the biggest message I want to get across is that we look at the world through certain lenses.
(28:50):
And with medicine, we have a laboratory lens or a radiology lens.
And we're encouraging people to look a thermal lens.
Dynamic structures, body inaction, how does it work? And if we, the question I would be asking, if I was a patient is I wonder if there's a thermal imaging application for that, because there's so many different variations and tailoring of the technology.
(29:17):
We're just at the cusp of exploration here and I think we're getting closer.
Wonderful.
I learned a lot from you, Dr.
Kane.
when I came out of medical school and residency, I was one of those doctors who was very close-minded.
as I have, grown in my career, and as a person, I have been trying to be more open to things that are not necessarily traditional.
(29:42):
So I've learned a lot from you from this podcast.
And I do hope our listeners are interested in thermal imaging.
'cause I, it sounds like it can be a.
Wonderful tool to detect not just breast cancer, but other conditions that can be treated in real time.
(30:04):
If someone is having inflammations, let's say, maybe it hasn't developed into anything yet.
It sounds like those conditions can be treated immediately, so it doesn't develop, let's say, into carpal tunnel or a tendonitis or anything like that.
Is that is, am I right? Oh, absolutely.
Okay.
One of the applications that really took off over in Spain is the idea of screening athletes.
(30:30):
They're screening the athletes and they're looking and seeing where are, is the heat building up? Where are the areas that are not getting enough circulation or abnormally cold? And then they're building that into the training program.
I remember doing an imaging on a 17-year-old shot putter who was heading to the Olympics, and I saw a streak of heat on the upper part of her shoulder, which matched one of the small muscles of the rotator cuff.
(30:57):
She had no pain.
She wasn't complaining of everything, but once we found that, we did an orthopedic test on her and found that, yeah, she had a little bit of an impingement up there.
I gave that information to the trainer and he was so grateful because he was able to strengthen her in a way and potentially prevent the injury from happening.
Is it used in professional football, like in Spain? Do you know? I believe that they're starting to make inroads.
(31:22):
The particular company that's been pioneering it Has started to make some inroads.
Okay.
But he does have contacts with some of the professional teams.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's all fascinating.
And, I would love to get more into that as well.
Looking at athletes I did open water swimming for many years.
And swimmers and shoulder problems just go hand in hand.
They haven't mastered how to, the body rotation versus the shoulder pole.
(31:44):
And to be able to show that feedback even when they're not even feeling pain so that their stroke could be adjusted, could save a lot of injuries, especially with people swimming 20, 30 miles at a time.
Aside from sports, where else do you see, and we've talked about patients medicine.
One of the areas I'm getting really fascinated with too is the effect of diabetes on the hands and the feet.
(32:06):
Okay? Because we know that neuropathy is a problem especially the feet.
They get ulcers.
This could, sometimes result in amputations.
This circulations altered.
Now thermography doesn't diagnose diabetes, but what it can do is look at how well is the circulation in the hands and the feet.
Okay, and how is the neurological control of those types of things? And based upon how well that's functioning, we could start to get some impressions as to how much these areas are affected and put that into the treatment protocols.
(32:39):
Interesting.
So this would be looking at.
The real time imaging of patients who have neuropathy, Would it pick up stuff earlier than an EMG would? It's possible.
I wouldn't say that it does across the board.
Okay.
But depending on how much the injury affected, the sympathetic nervous system, which is where circulation lives that's where the potential is.
(33:06):
And that certainly there's been times when the EMG has been normal and the thermography has been the test that picked it up.
For conditions like chronic fibromyalgia, would this have any kind of benefit for those types of patients? Yeah, great question because I actually just spoke to a researcher out of Brazil that did his doctoral thesis in thermal imaging and fibromyalgia.
(33:30):
Okay.
So very timely question for me 'cause I just got this information over the last few weeks.
Okay.
But there are several markers that we look for in fibromyalgia.
One is alterations of.
The general blood flow that show that the sympathetic nervous system is being affected, the sympathetic nervous system can be intimately involved with how a person experiences pain.
(33:53):
If that system's altered a small amount of stimulus can cause a lot of pain.
and I know a lot of fibromyalgia patients have been told, oh, you're just sensitive.
Yeah, Neurologically there's a reason for it, and we can map that out with a thermography.
They also tend to have different changes in their overall metabolic state, there's something called the brain thermal tunnel where we measure the inner eyes and we look at the temperature there to see if they're having an increased metabolism or decreased metabolism.
(34:22):
Okay.
Between using that, some of the thermal markers for the sympathetic nervous system function the hands, the feet, we get a lot of data.
I don't have too many fibromyalgia patients, but the ones that I do I feel very badly for them because they're often told that it's in their head.
I see a lot of women in their midwives, so a lot of perimenopause, menopause, and a lot of that you see.
(34:48):
Joint aches, muscle aches obviously irritability hot flashes, night sweats.
Those kind of things.
Do you see thermal imaging having any role in something like that? First of all, during menopause, obviously the hormonal balance is shifting very rapidly, and that produces a lot of the symptoms With thermography, we can look at the actual effects of those shifts on the breast tissue and see number one, how.
(35:15):
quickly are things changing, how things are shifting, and could that be explaining their problem, especially if part of their problem is breast pain or breast cysts.
We can also look and see if and you probably see patients like this.
They you're thinking they might be a hormone replacement candidate.
Perhaps you've tried to recommend biodentical hormones, but they're scared.
(35:36):
They've heard things like the women's health initiative and they haven't learned to separate bioidentical from synthetic, right? With a thermography, you can sit there and look at their breast tissue and see are we seeing any trends towards worse? And I've seen patients where they start bioidentical hormones in their asymmetries, get better.
Okay.
(35:56):
Because certain types of bioidentical hormones are actually breast protective.
They just don't talk about it in mainstream news.
You're not gonna see that headline on the New York Times.
So you have something to give them visual feedback to let them know that no, what we're doing here is safe and effective.
Wow.
I actually just gave a lecture yesterday about bio-identical hormones.
(36:17):
And how it can be for some women protective towards breast cancer.
So I hope you're listening.
Yeah.
And I've got there's a Brazilian doctor I had I got her to present at a local association conference.
And her basic model is she does thermography on everybody before she does hormones.
(36:37):
She only uses bioidentical hormones, but what she does is that if she sees any increase in the asymmetries, the negative signs during the hormones.
she'll actually change the delivery system.
So she might go from oral to vaginal or topical.
But she'll play around with those as different levers to see if that will change the effect.
(36:58):
Yeah, I think, these are all things that, are missing from my practice, but I find it fascinating.
So is this something that only maybe a handful of practitioners do in Brazil, or is it more popular there versus here? Brazil actually has a training program in one of the local hospital, in one of the universities.
Okay.
(37:18):
And I'm colleagues and friends with one of the doctors that actually created that program.
Brazil seems to be at the forefront.
He's just done tremendous work.
He's just okay, one of these personalities that had the drive and decided to go against the odds and make something happen.
I do hope that we see more patients using thermal imaging, and now that I've learned from you about how it's used I'm gonna encourage my patients to get more thermal imaging done in addition to their traditional screenings as well.
(37:50):
Great.
Thanks.
It's been a fun interview.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for the education.
No, absolutely.
Feel free to reach out.
Thank you so much.
this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice.
Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen.
And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast.
(38:14):
Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says.
Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.
I am thrilled to share some exciting news with all of you.
I've recently accepted the role of medical Director of Women's Health at Hackensack Meridian Health, specifically at Jersey Shore University Medical Center.
This new chapter is about so much more than a title.
It's about advancing women's health in a way that's comprehensive, compassionate.
(00:22):
Evidence-based.
My mission is to build a program that truly supports women at every stage of life from reproductive health through menopause and beyond.
Combining the best of modern medicine with the holistic approaches I've always believed in, and I will continue to see patients as well.
I'm deeply grateful to my patients, listeners, and community who continue to inspire this work every day.
(00:49):
There's so much more to come.
And I can't wait to share this journey with you right here on Soma says.
(01:32):
Today, ANMA says, I'm joined by Dr.
Robert Kain, the CEO and lead interpreter of Kain Thermal Imaging.
It's a company at the forefront of using infrared technology to uncover what often goes unseen with a background that bridges science, medicine, and innovation.
Dr.
Kane has dedicated his work to making thermal imaging a powerful tool for health and safety.
(01:59):
From detecting subtle patterns in the body that can point to inflammation or circulation issues to applying imaging in industrial safety, environmental monitoring, and even search and rescue.
His expertise is about turning invisible heat signatures into actionable knowledge.
Dr.
Kain is passionate about.
(02:20):
Education, ethics and innovation in this space, and his vision is to make thermal imaging both accessible and responsibly integrated into healthcare and beyond.
Dr.
Kane, welcome to Soma says, I'm excited to dive into this technology with you and how it's reshaping the way that world around us sees.
(02:44):
Thank you very much for having me.
I'm looking forward to our conversation.
What inspired you to move into thermal imaging and how did you see the potential beyond the traditional applications? Yeah, great question.
So I'm a chiropractor by training.
I graduated back in the early 1990s and chiropractic was always a bit of a stigma in the medical profession because it wasn't quote unquote scientific.
(03:13):
And I had a background in physiology and anatomy, and I wanted to see what we could use to monitor the effects of chiropractic from a scientific basis.
And thermography became a great tool to do that.
It looked at nerve function, it looked at circulation, and for patients with pain problems, we were able to monitor them and track them in ways that weren't able to be done before.
(03:35):
Okay.
And what was the reason that you know, basically.
Saw that the thermal imaging was the way to go, was there something unique about thermal imaging that drew you to it? Or is it something that just felt that would benefit particularly women in terms of their health? For the thermal imaging, what I love is that it's a functional test, and most radiology is what we call anatomical or structural tests.
(04:06):
It shows you the parts of the body, if you will.
Where this shows actually how it's functioning.
is the metabolism working properly? Is the are the nerves firing properly? Is the circulation perfusing the body parts properly? And that became very exciting.
Can you explain to the audience how thermal imaging works so that they can understand? Okay.
(04:28):
The very basics is that when we're looking at thermal imaging, we're measuring heat.
Heat is actually discharged by the body in the form of infrared energy, and we have these very sophisticated cameras that actually collect that infrared information and create a heat map.
So I think the easiest way to think about it is when you go to the doctor, one of the first things they're gonna do is take your temperature.
(04:51):
that temperature, it doesn't necessarily mean there's a specific disease going on, but it's a general indication on how your body's functioning.
So with thermography, what we're doing is we're taking a heat picture of the body and looking at the patterns of the distribution of that heat.
Again, as a general indication of how is the body functioning and what systems might be compromised that we need to look at further.
(05:17):
How does thermal imaging complement rather than replace traditional medic medical diagnostics, like how does it complement a CAT scan or a mammogram or a breast ultrasound or any other imaging that you perhaps complement with this type of.
Yeah, I alluded to that with the first answer that I gave you and the key word here is it's functional testing.
(05:42):
Okay.
So for example, we're in breast cancer Awareness month in October, and there's a lot of focus on breast cancer right now, and the mammogram, while an important tool is looking at structural changes, are there calcium deposits, are there masses, things like that.
But what the thermogram offers is a functional component.
Is the tissue metabolism increased like cancer does? Are there changes to the blood supply and profusion like cancer can create? And when we use one piece of information with the other, we actually get closer to the target of an earlier diagnosis and better detection.
(06:20):
A lot of my patients are concerned about the radiation that comes along with an x-ray or a mammogram, or a CAT scan with thermal imaging.
Is radiation a concern? No, not at all.
And it's one of the benefits is that it's simply measuring the energy coming off to you, okay? It's not doing anything to your body.
(06:42):
So if I wanted to, I can literally measure a person with thermal imaging eight hours a day.
Four weeks at a time, and there's no exposure to them other than they're just having the test done.
Okay.
Yeah.
sometimes I like to explain, because let's say a patient may be afraid they're having a mammogram for the first time, they've never had it before, or they're having a CAT scan and they're scared about, being stuck in the tunnel.
(07:08):
Yeah, great question.
There's no coen or tunnel, so the claustrophobia is not an issue at all.
It's basically like getting your picture taken.
So a woman would go into a climate controlled room.
The room is a little on the cool side, but not terrible.
the area that we're measuring would need to be exposed.
So if there's a breast examination, she would need to be disrobed from the waist up.
(07:31):
Most centers doing this have female technicians and they have curtains so that the woman is, her modesty is protected.
Okay.
But at that point, she is literally positioned in front of the camera and told to move into certain positions and angles to make sure all the images can be captured.
Okay.
No compression, no radiation, no pain.
(07:51):
Yeah.
And those are some of the very common complaints that I get.
As you mentioned, mammogram is an important tool, but it can be very uncomfortable for some women.
What are some of the common health issues that you detect with thermal imaging that might otherwise go unnoticed? Okay.
(08:12):
Breast cancer is a big one.
It's been approved since the 1980s as an adjunct in breast cancer diagnosis.
We're seeing applications, in the holistic community for empowering women's breast health because it's a risk marker as well.
With pain conditions, it's helpful in looking at nerve injury, inflammation systemic problems and then some of the more exotic applications are looking at different types of headaches, dental infections, and metabolic disorders.
(08:40):
There's just a big wide gamut.
Okay.
And do you have any data as to how it works in terms of, aiding the detection of breast cancer or any other conditions? is there any data that you can share with us? Yeah, there's actually the historical data that I've been operating out of came really out of the late 19 eighties.
(09:05):
these were large scale retrospective studies looking at the number of cancers caught and looking at the difference in women that didn't have thermography versus the ones that did.
What was found was that thermography by itself had about an 80 to 90% detection rate, accuracy rate cross correlations with mammography, adding them together, brought that into the high nineties.
(09:28):
women that had thermography identify the cancer as the earliest sign tended to catch their cancers faster.
'cause those thermal signals were showing faster than the anatomical.
So they saw the thermal signal first.
they coordinated the anatomical studies and were able to catch things sooner.
Okay.
there are some women that are reluctant to have the mammograms, perhaps because it's uncomfortable for them, perhaps because they are worried about radiation and they would prefer thermal imaging.
(09:58):
What is your take on just having thermal imaging alone versus having both a mammogram, perhaps a breast ultrasound, and then thermal imaging as well? I think, again, it's a great question and let me just start off with I completely empathize with what women go through to get this test.
this is not something that I consider to be an issue to take lightly.
(10:21):
But what I will say is that mammography does still offer certain diagnostic information that the other tests don't.
So what we recommend is that women incorporate the thermography into the other testing.
If the woman's concerned about mammograms and she wants to see if an ultrasound's appropriate first, she can talk to her doctor about that.
But the thermograms designed to be incorporated with these other tests rather than to replace.
(10:45):
Okay.
I think that's important for our audience to hear because I don't want there to be an interpretation that we are saying mammography should be ignored, but rather this is basically using another type of diagnostic tool to help detect underlying disorders.
(11:07):
We've been talking about a lot about breast cancer.
You mentioned it's breast cancer awareness month.
What other conditions have you picked up with thermal imaging? Again, there's a gamut of them, but the ones that I've been particularly working with are pain syndromes.
Neuropathy, people that have a pinched nerve going into their hand.
One of my earliest actual experiences with tomography was looking at carpal tunnel syndrome patients back in the early 1990s.
(11:34):
This was the time of computers, so everybody was getting carpal tunnel syndrome and the hand surgeons had their hands full.
What we were finding in the chiropractic practice was that some of these surgeries were failed surgeries.
And the surgeons couldn't figure out why, because when they looked at the anatomical reconstruction of that carpal tunnel, it was perfect.
What we found with the thermography was that there were several other areas that nerve was being affected on.
(11:59):
So we were able to sit there, look at the thermal map and saying The reason why your hand's not better is 'cause we've got a problem in the neck and the shoulder and the elbow, and if we can get those three together, you're gonna get relief.
And we were seeing it.
That's interesting.
I would never have imagined that.
And as someone who's had a couple of EMGs electromyograph, which are never fun, no.
(12:22):
Would thermal imaging have picked up? this was from an injury I had a ulnar neuropathy.
As well as a median neuropathy as well.
so you were mentioning carpal tunnel, so that would've picked up, but would it also have picked up the ulnar neuropathy as.
I think there's a very good chance, 'cause the sensitivity is very good.
The sensitivity for neuropathies in the 90 percentile okay.
(12:44):
Nothing's a hundred percent, yeah.
This is part of the messaging that we're giving to pain doctors is that.
You think it's one thing, but let's check a few other systems in a different manner to see if we have multiple causes.
I think the idea of one, cause one cure is being replaced now in the functional community, at least with multiple factors colliding, creating, a cluster of symptomatology.
(13:09):
That's, it's very interesting to me because when I have looked for thermal imaging and I'm in New Jersey there.
Doesn't seem to be very many places here unless this is being done out of individual practitioner's office that I, I don't know about.
So in your experience, how are you getting the message across to doctors such as myself, about thermal imaging and are they embracing it or are they reluctant to use it? Yeah.
(13:43):
Again, a great question.
And I'd say the overall tone is there's a reluctancy, it's new, and they're not seeing it through their associations.
And this was, these were some frank conversations with medical doctors, and there's a concern about liability, and there's a concern about being so cutting edge that they've gone past their limits of comfort.
(14:05):
So we're getting some reluctancy there, but then we've got some innovators that are saying, no, there are really some safe ways we can experiment with this technology and incorporate it and really not necessarily put anyone at risk doing it.
We're seeing some adaptation in the pain area.
Another place we're seeing it is chronic venous insufficiency.
Women that have, and men as well, that are getting swelling in their legs.
(14:28):
It's usually diagnosed by symptoms before the ultrasound, but there's some doctors right now that have some literature showing that if they use the thermogram as a way to direct the ultrasound, they're catching the insufficiency sooner.
I'm surprised to hear that you are meeting reluctance, although.
Doctors by tradition tend to be very conservative.
(14:52):
Yeah.
So how do you get the message across? Is thermal imaging usually covered by insurance and if not what are the roundabout cost factors that.
Patients have to face, if they choose to have thermal imaging.
Yeah.
Thermal imaging's not reimbursable by insurance except in rare situations.
(15:12):
So the price point is usually, for breast examination, maybe a couple hundred dollars.
It's not that expensive.
And I think the place where we're seeing good adoption is in the functional medicine community.
the functional medicine community is more likely to use a concierge medicine model, meaning, we understand that these things are uncovered by insurance, but we're trying to make them available.
(15:34):
So they're working with the different tests, the laboratories, and they're the more likely to add something like this onto their practice than let's say, a traditional insurance-based practice.
Yeah.
What standards do you have in place so that you know that the imaging is being interpreted accurately and responsibly? Can you share that with our audience? Yeah, absolutely.
(15:57):
If you're looking for a thermal imaging center, it should be interpreted by certified doctors that have been certified in thermography.
If they're doing breast, they should have some sort of additional training In breast imaging, myself, I've gone through two certification programs.
I'm actually, a 30 years experience going through a third.
'cause the Brazilians have some great stuff that I wanted to learn.
I also did an internship with Dr.
(16:18):
William Hobbins, who's one of the early pioneers of breast demography.
Even though I'm a chiropractor, I made sure I got the additional training.
So I was responsibly working with these materials.
Getting back to something that you said earlier, you said that thermal imaging has been around for a while.
Yeah.
Why do you think it just never took really? Why are other modalities being used and why did thermal imaging get left behind? Yeah, great question.
(16:44):
I think it's a combination of things.
Number one.
I don't think that prior to the 1980s, the concept of functional medicine really got into vogue.
I remember hearing about it through Dr.
Jeff Bland in the 1990s, and it was just starting to get traction.
Okay.
So thermography was coming.
(17:05):
it didn't really get to be used from a functional model.
Now, if you're using it to make a diagnosis, it's probably not gonna do that.
It's gonna help you get there and maybe even faster, but it's not gonna be that one test that does it.
Okay.
I think there was just some resistance to that methodology of thinking.
Do you see AI playing a role in thermal imaging interpretation in the future? It's already happening currently.
(17:32):
Okay.
there's a company right now out of India that's got one of the first research backed AI programs to look at breast analysis.
It's introduced in the US in a limited basis because of the way the FDA works, but their literature is sound and we're seeing more and more of that in the pain specialties and in the metabolic specialties as well.
So I think we're just starting to see the ability to acquire tools that interpreters can use right now.
(17:57):
Okay.
Are there any non medicinal uses of thermal imaging? I'm just curious because I'm relatively new to it.
are there any other uses that thermal imaging can provide? This is not particularly my specialty, but thermography or thermal imaging came into being in the medical applications because of what they were using in the military.
(18:19):
Ah, They were using it to spot ships over the horizon.
Oh, wow.
They could see heat signatures before.
Okay.
If any of you have seen television shows with night vision or thermal vision, it's exactly what you're seeing.
Applications are in semiconductors welding of airplane parts to make sure airplane is solid before it goes up in the air.
(18:39):
All of these kinds of things making sure boats don't leak.
All of these are applications for thermal imaging.
And Dr.
Kane how long have you been in practice I've been in practice since 1991.
Okay.
And you're still seeing patients at this time? I gave up my chiropractic practice in 2008.
Okay, got it.
And since then, I've basically been doing thermal imaging interpretation for other centers and training.
(19:04):
And so what type are you training technicians or other practitioners who actually read the imaging itself? What kind of training do you provide? Yeah.
My personal training is technicians.
So that they can set up laboratories, get paired with interpreters, or learn how to interpret themselves, but know how to do it correctly.
Okay.
(19:24):
For interpretation training, I leave that to the associations just simply because there's specialties that.
Are not mine.
And I think they need a well-rounded background that's goes beyond just what I have to offer.
Okay.
So in the, at the time that perhaps that you were practicing were you using thermal imaging at that time? Up until 2008, all the time.
(19:46):
Okay.
Yeah.
And can you share a story where thermal imaging revealed something life changing for a patient or a client? Yeah, I'll take it right back to breast cancer.
Okay.
Because I had a woman, she'd been getting her annual mammograms.
Everything looked good.
She was told, you're fine.
Everything's going well.
And she came in and we did a breast thermogram on her and we noticed a lot of blood vessel activity.
(20:12):
One blood vessels in the upper outer quadrant of her left breast.
I sent her back to her doctor.
Her doctor blew it off and said, look, she had a normal mammogram.
There's nothing to worry about.
Okay.
Three months later it got worse.
Wow.
At this point, I'm on the phone with the doctor saying, can't we run something else? And ultrasound and MRI, she reluctantly agreed to run the tests.
(20:34):
MRI found the diagnosis.
Wow.
Because we push those additional tests based upon the thermal data, and that's the value because it just says, look here and look harder.
Yeah.
how frustrating that you had to push that hard to advocate for your patient.
(20:55):
It's unfortunate, but it's just the nature of the adaptation curve.
Being in chiropractic and now being in thermal imaging, my friends laugh at me.
They said, you always tend to look at the underdog, the one that's not necessarily in vogue and accepted.
And I said, somebody's gotta do it.
Someone has to take that stand and show the world that there's a place to look here that they haven't been looking.
(21:16):
Yes.
if I could do that it's very gratifying.
I do believe that when we do things like that, like you have just described, right? It's not for the sake of having good things always returned to us.
But I do feel like you did a good deed.
You performed a service For your patient and that doesn't go unrecognized.
(21:36):
Yeah.
Tell us about your about cane thermal imaging.
How many centers do you have? And where are they located? Okay, so Cane Thermal Imaging is simply an interpretation company, Okay.
I do have contracts, but I don't have ownership in those different facilities.
Okay.
Within the contract though, they are contractually obligated to follow standard guidelines, procedures, quality controls.
(22:00):
If they're not doing that, I won't read for them.
It's just as simple as that.
Okay.
Currently I'm working with approximately 60 centers across the us, Europe, and Canada.
I have one center in Israel I'm working with right now.
Most of them are doing a certain amount of breast imaging.
But a lot of them are involved with pain imaging as well as just looking at metabolic conditions and, things like thyroids and diabetes and things like that.
(22:25):
Where do you where is your vision for cane thermal imaging in the next, let's say five years? I personally hate that question when people ask me what my vision is for the next five years.
I think day to day.
But what is your vision for the next five to 10 years? What I would love is just greater collaboration and integration.
I'd love to see the company being more involved in active research.
(22:47):
Yeah.
There's a methodology to look at the activity of estrogen in the breasts.
It's really great for postmenopausal women That have breast pain or breast cysts or fibrocystic breasts.
And I'm very comfortable doing it.
But at the same time, I think we need to start going through the scientific rigor process.
So I see us more involved in research.
(23:07):
I also see me more involved in public outreach and education.
This is a step in that I want to make sure that the general public understands.
What the potential is so that they're asking for it.
Because I think change happens in the world, not just when the powers and the authorities deem it's ready, but when the masses sit there and say, Hey, we're looking for something more, and there's a little bit of a push from the patient side of it as well.
(23:31):
Doing the podcast is part of that.
Just making sure that the general public understands what the potential is.
Because I think because.
As we educate doctors, that's part of the equation, but I think if patients are asking for it as well, that helps us work both sides of the equation and we're more likely to get an adaptation of the technology and then reap the benefits that comes with that.
(23:54):
How do you get the message out to the general public about thermal imaging? I think for the general public, it's a matter of really looking at specific conditions And showing them how they can empower themselves with knowledge.
Okay.
For breast cancer one of the biggest messages that I crafted back in the mid 1990s, early two thousands was that a woman can actually start to take control of her own health.
(24:18):
She doesn't have to wait for the positive test that says she has cancer.
She can identify biomarkers.
On breast thermography and then take action with lifestyle and diet.
Yeah, to I think there's opportunities.
No, I think that is the right thinking and unfortunately with traditional medicine it's almost like we're waiting for something to happen and we're not necessarily educating our patients about what they can do preventatively.
(24:47):
Yeah.
me, as you mentioned, the biomarkers.
Perhaps, obviously diet and exercise.
And stress is a big one as well, but we're often focused on just getting the test done.
Okay.
Your mammogram is fine.
We'll see you, we'll do another one next year.
But we don't necessarily focus on the preventative.
(25:08):
Peter aia who is a doctor out there about lifestyle medicine, often calls it Medicine 3.0
where he talks more about preventative and lifestyle and what we can do to prevent these things from happening rather than waiting for it to happen.
So it sounds like your mantra somewhat goes along with that.
Not, just say, okay, your tests are fine.
(25:31):
Like the example that you used with your patient who you had multiple thermal imaging where they, you were seeing the vessels, we wouldn't have necessarily seen that, it sounds like on a traditional mammogram or even an ultrasound.
No, and I think the Medicine 3.0
model is the way to go.
I love Peter Atia and I love his model, and I think thermography is the missing piece with Medicine 3.0
(25:55):
with breast care and in many other systems because it is giving you that functional component.
Yeah.
It's modifiable, meaning if you have a genetic marker for breast cancer, that's good knowledge, but that can't be changed, right? Thermography is one of the few things that could give you non-invasive feedback instantly.
So what would you see on thermography? Let's say you advised a patient to have a healthier lifestyle.
(26:21):
What would you see on thermography that would change? The idea is that symmetry is the rule.
That's the model.
The idea is that the right and the left should be fairly symmetrical.
And when we see asymmetries and when the asymmetries are caused by certain patterns of temperature, we then correlate that with a risk for breast cancer.
(26:41):
And indeed we've seen that women that have, positive thermal findings have a 22 greater times likelihood of developing cancer than women that didn't.
So it's a biomarker, it's not a guarantee.
So if a woman started changing her diet and doing things to promote her breast health, we would look to see for a return towards greater sym.
(27:04):
It may not be a hundred percent, but if we got from significantly asymmetrical to only moderately or moderately to mild, we know we're going in the right direction, and that's great feedback.
Okay.
Is the machine that you use for thermal imaging, is it something that's portable? Is it something that a patient stands up next to for the imaging, No, they're highly portable.
(27:27):
Some of the more sophisticated devices are, they look like a little rectangle.
some of the smaller ones may be looking at the size of a regular camera.
Okay.
But basically they just plug into the computer so that the thermal data can be converted to a picture using software.
Okay.
Fascinating.
If a person was to look for thermal imaging would there be certain certifications that she should look out for? How for example, I mentioned I myself have tried to help my patients for, to look for thermal imaging for them.
(28:01):
Yeah.
What would I look for that would tell me that this is reputable, trustworthy? How would I help my patients that way? Yeah.
I think with certification goes the two associations that I'm a part of is the International Academy of Clinical Thermology.
And the American Academy of Thermology.
Okay.
those are science-based medical profession.
(28:24):
They're multidisciplinary, but they're medically run associations that have credible guidelines and credible standards.
There are others out there.
at the minimum, make sure that they're certified by an association.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So those are pearls that I'll, make sure that I write down.
So when I do look for it, I'll make sure that the certification is there.
I think the biggest message I want to get across is that we look at the world through certain lenses.
(28:50):
And with medicine, we have a laboratory lens or a radiology lens.
And we're encouraging people to look a thermal lens.
Dynamic structures, body inaction, how does it work? And if we, the question I would be asking, if I was a patient is I wonder if there's a thermal imaging application for that, because there's so many different variations and tailoring of the technology.
(29:17):
We're just at the cusp of exploration here and I think we're getting closer.
Wonderful.
I learned a lot from you, Dr.
Kane.
when I came out of medical school and residency, I was one of those doctors who was very close-minded.
as I have, grown in my career, and as a person, I have been trying to be more open to things that are not necessarily traditional.
(29:42):
So I've learned a lot from you from this podcast.
And I do hope our listeners are interested in thermal imaging.
'cause I, it sounds like it can be a.
Wonderful tool to detect not just breast cancer, but other conditions that can be treated in real time.
(30:04):
If someone is having inflammations, let's say, maybe it hasn't developed into anything yet.
It sounds like those conditions can be treated immediately, so it doesn't develop, let's say, into carpal tunnel or a tendonitis or anything like that.
Is that is, am I right? Oh, absolutely.
Okay.
One of the applications that really took off over in Spain is the idea of screening athletes.
(30:30):
They're screening the athletes and they're looking and seeing where are, is the heat building up? Where are the areas that are not getting enough circulation or abnormally cold? And then they're building that into the training program.
I remember doing an imaging on a 17-year-old shot putter who was heading to the Olympics, and I saw a streak of heat on the upper part of her shoulder, which matched one of the small muscles of the rotator cuff.
(30:57):
She had no pain.
She wasn't complaining of everything, but once we found that, we did an orthopedic test on her and found that, yeah, she had a little bit of an impingement up there.
I gave that information to the trainer and he was so grateful because he was able to strengthen her in a way and potentially prevent the injury from happening.
Is it used in professional football, like in Spain? Do you know? I believe that they're starting to make inroads.
(31:22):
The particular company that's been pioneering it Has started to make some inroads.
Okay.
But he does have contacts with some of the professional teams.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's all fascinating.
And, I would love to get more into that as well.
Looking at athletes I did open water swimming for many years.
And swimmers and shoulder problems just go hand in hand.
They haven't mastered how to, the body rotation versus the shoulder pole.
(31:44):
And to be able to show that feedback even when they're not even feeling pain so that their stroke could be adjusted, could save a lot of injuries, especially with people swimming 20, 30 miles at a time.
Aside from sports, where else do you see, and we've talked about patients medicine.
One of the areas I'm getting really fascinated with too is the effect of diabetes on the hands and the feet.
(32:06):
Okay? Because we know that neuropathy is a problem especially the feet.
They get ulcers.
This could, sometimes result in amputations.
This circulations altered.
Now thermography doesn't diagnose diabetes, but what it can do is look at how well is the circulation in the hands and the feet.
Okay, and how is the neurological control of those types of things? And based upon how well that's functioning, we could start to get some impressions as to how much these areas are affected and put that into the treatment protocols.
(32:39):
Interesting.
So this would be looking at.
The real time imaging of patients who have neuropathy, Would it pick up stuff earlier than an EMG would? It's possible.
I wouldn't say that it does across the board.
Okay.
But depending on how much the injury affected, the sympathetic nervous system, which is where circulation lives that's where the potential is.
(33:06):
And that certainly there's been times when the EMG has been normal and the thermography has been the test that picked it up.
For conditions like chronic fibromyalgia, would this have any kind of benefit for those types of patients? Yeah, great question because I actually just spoke to a researcher out of Brazil that did his doctoral thesis in thermal imaging and fibromyalgia.
(33:30):
Okay.
So very timely question for me 'cause I just got this information over the last few weeks.
Okay.
But there are several markers that we look for in fibromyalgia.
One is alterations of.
The general blood flow that show that the sympathetic nervous system is being affected, the sympathetic nervous system can be intimately involved with how a person experiences pain.
(33:53):
If that system's altered a small amount of stimulus can cause a lot of pain.
and I know a lot of fibromyalgia patients have been told, oh, you're just sensitive.
Yeah, Neurologically there's a reason for it, and we can map that out with a thermography.
They also tend to have different changes in their overall metabolic state, there's something called the brain thermal tunnel where we measure the inner eyes and we look at the temperature there to see if they're having an increased metabolism or decreased metabolism.
(34:22):
Okay.
Between using that, some of the thermal markers for the sympathetic nervous system function the hands, the feet, we get a lot of data.
I don't have too many fibromyalgia patients, but the ones that I do I feel very badly for them because they're often told that it's in their head.
I see a lot of women in their midwives, so a lot of perimenopause, menopause, and a lot of that you see.
(34:48):
Joint aches, muscle aches obviously irritability hot flashes, night sweats.
Those kind of things.
Do you see thermal imaging having any role in something like that? First of all, during menopause, obviously the hormonal balance is shifting very rapidly, and that produces a lot of the symptoms With thermography, we can look at the actual effects of those shifts on the breast tissue and see number one, how.
(35:15):
quickly are things changing, how things are shifting, and could that be explaining their problem, especially if part of their problem is breast pain or breast cysts.
We can also look and see if and you probably see patients like this.
They you're thinking they might be a hormone replacement candidate.
Perhaps you've tried to recommend biodentical hormones, but they're scared.
(35:36):
They've heard things like the women's health initiative and they haven't learned to separate bioidentical from synthetic, right? With a thermography, you can sit there and look at their breast tissue and see are we seeing any trends towards worse? And I've seen patients where they start bioidentical hormones in their asymmetries, get better.
Okay.
(35:56):
Because certain types of bioidentical hormones are actually breast protective.
They just don't talk about it in mainstream news.
You're not gonna see that headline on the New York Times.
So you have something to give them visual feedback to let them know that no, what we're doing here is safe and effective.
Wow.
I actually just gave a lecture yesterday about bio-identical hormones.
(36:17):
And how it can be for some women protective towards breast cancer.
So I hope you're listening.
Yeah.
And I've got there's a Brazilian doctor I had I got her to present at a local association conference.
And her basic model is she does thermography on everybody before she does hormones.
(36:37):
She only uses bioidentical hormones, but what she does is that if she sees any increase in the asymmetries, the negative signs during the hormones.
she'll actually change the delivery system.
So she might go from oral to vaginal or topical.
But she'll play around with those as different levers to see if that will change the effect.
(36:58):
Yeah, I think, these are all things that, are missing from my practice, but I find it fascinating.
So is this something that only maybe a handful of practitioners do in Brazil, or is it more popular there versus here? Brazil actually has a training program in one of the local hospital, in one of the universities.
Okay.
(37:18):
And I'm colleagues and friends with one of the doctors that actually created that program.
Brazil seems to be at the forefront.
He's just done tremendous work.
He's just okay, one of these personalities that had the drive and decided to go against the odds and make something happen.
I do hope that we see more patients using thermal imaging, and now that I've learned from you about how it's used I'm gonna encourage my patients to get more thermal imaging done in addition to their traditional screenings as well.
(37:50):
Great.
Thanks.
It's been a fun interview.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for the education.
No, absolutely.
Feel free to reach out.
Thank you so much.
this podcast is for informational purposes only and isn't intended as medical advice.
Always consult with your doctor before making any changes to your diet, exercise, or health regimen.
And don't forget to like, share and review my podcast.
(38:14):
Remember, it's always ladies first on Soma Says.
Let's make a difference one conversation at a time.
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