February 7, 2024 • 38 mins
At our last mentors meeting we thought it would be fun to invite you into our conversation from time to time. Today, Claire Pedrick is in conversation with Ruth Bennett PCC and Zoe Dickinson PCC about what we are learning from technical check ins with coaches - looking at and listening to recordings of their work. We talk about
• Making the rightsizing questions normal
• The Importance of Asking 'How Will You Know'
• Connecting with what people are saying so we don’t sound like a tennis ball machine
• Adapting tone in different parts of the conversation
If you like this episode, we’d love you to share it with one other coach. And if you’d like to talk more about any of the things you heard in the podcast, we are on LinkedIn and at the end of info@3dcoaching.com
If you like this episode, subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform to hear new episodes as they drop. You can watch this episode, with subtitles on our YouTube Channel
Coming Up:
Next: Personal Development Coaching in Sport with Elizabeth Egan
Soon: Coaching - Soul or Mastery with Kay Young
Key Words
coaching, Stokers method, coaching conversation, beginning, middle, end, coaching skills, technical check-ins, rightsizing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're at the Coaching Inn 3d Coaching Virtual Pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching.
Welcome to the Coaching Inn.
Uh,
I'm your host,
Claire Pedrick.
And this week I'm in conversation with two of 3d coaching s marvelous mentors,
(00:23):
uh Ruth Bennett and Zoe Dickinson and Zoe.
Hello.
Hi,
nice to be here.
So let's just hear about your coaching journeys and then we'll,
we're gonna think about today,
aren't we?
Um,
what we're learning from mental coaching groups,
um about where coaches are strong and where they can develop.
(00:44):
So,
Ruth,
tell us a little bit about your journey.
Oh,
my journey uh was kind of from youth work,
working with youth workers and hr learning and development through to coaching and having great conversations with people.
And probably about,
uh,
I don't know,
(01:05):
89 years ago,
now I kind of came into the formal world of coaching and I just loved it and particularly seeing people develop in their skills and their kind of um but seeing their development and light bulbs going on because they can do something a bit more simply.
So I really love that side of things.
(01:28):
Fabulous.
Thank you,
Zoe.
Hello.
Hello.
Um I spent a large part of my life and career working for relief and development charity.
Um,
and that's where I'm uh first met Claire and 3D coaching.
So I was in that uh charity working and 3d came in and run a what's now transforming conversations.
(01:48):
And I was thinking about what next?
And I was like,
wow,
this is just,
yeah,
it was a pivotal moment for me,
a turning point of just making space for people to think and have great conversations.
And from then on went on retrained and um self employed for a number of years before joining the 3D team.
(02:09):
Um and yeah,
love,
you know,
being part of that journey with other coaches so experienced it and now get to,
to accompany others on that.
And um and it's exciting.
Yeah,
and you didn't learn Stokers,
did you Zoe?
Because you were in the room on the day.
It was created.
I did not.
So in the moment it didn't exist.
(02:29):
No,
no,
it's amazing.
Yeah.
Uh I have got,
I can't remember his name.
I have got,
I did manage to get in touch with him.
Adrian,
oh Hawthorne,
yes,
Adrian Hawthorne said I need a word to be able to do the practice that you've just told me to do.
There we go.
(02:49):
I've never known who it was.
I know it because Adrian Hawthorne and,
and,
and,
and then it was born and then the next week I took it out and somebody said that's the name of the person on the back of a tandem.
That's amazing.
And,
and that's what unlocked all of this even more simplicity in the way that we do what we do.
(03:11):
Thanks to him and thanks to somebody else the following week in Wales.
Isn't it lovely?
How things just kind of emerge and happen sometimes and kind of a combination of different people?
Yeah.
And you know,
we say,
don't we,
that the people we work with are our best teachers.
But actually,
that's a really good example.
Cos you could sit,
you could sit trying to come up with a framework for,
(03:34):
for ever and ever and not come up with something sensible or come up with something that's a bit convoluted.
Yeah.
But on that day,
he only said that word because that happened to be the random order in which I'd asked the questions or,
or the random order in which the group had said it and that they were randomly on the flip chart.
(03:55):
But the thing that was most extraordinary about the whole process was that on that day,
the time question was second.
Hm.
It wasn't always,
it wasn't always.
But,
but then,
so I,
I used,
I used to write the questions in the,
so I'd do the coaching demo and then I'd say so what were the questions?
(04:16):
I used to frame the conversation and people won't always say it in the order.
You said it.
So I just randomly write them on the flip chart.
And I'm not sure.
I used to ask the time question first.
I think I used to say we've got 15 minutes.
What would you like to think about?
But on that day it said,
what would you like to think about?
(04:36):
And then the second question was so in this 15 minutes and then when it became a word,
everybody did it in that order.
And then I couldn't understand for ages why they were doing so much better.
Why do you think it is better to have that time?
Second?
(04:57):
Because,
because you're actually saying which bit of it cos if so if I say uh what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace?
So if I say we've got 15 minutes,
what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace,
I go inside,
I go,
that's very big.
(05:18):
Whereas if I say,
what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace?
And I just normally say so in the 15 minutes,
we have the automatic sentence completes with which bit of world peace do you want to think about?
And suddenly that's where the right sizing begins to.
Nobody think Claire Petrick came up with Stokers,
(05:39):
Adrian Hawthorne came up with Stokers and somebody else came up with the word,
right?
Sizing.
I was just listening.
Yeah,
I love that.
But,
but that begins to talk about flow,
doesn't it?
Because,
because actually the,
the,
the whole of that Stokers thing,
the question for me is how do I,
(06:00):
how do I ask those questions?
So,
I don't sound like a machine gun.
And how does it have a flow that makes it sound like a normal conversation and not something weird that I'm doing to somebody else?
Hm.
Something about it feeling natural for them and for us isn't there.
Yeah.
And there's a difference between who it feels na uh how it is received and how it is felt,
(06:24):
isn't it?
Because often when people start asking questions that are not necessarily in their own words,
they feel really awkward about it and it feels really clunky that comes up a lot,
doesn't it?
With people saying I can't say that it's not my words and people listening to it go,
oh,
that felt really weird.
But the person on the receiving end is almost always made no difference to me or actually they go.
(06:49):
That was amazing because it really helped me get to the point.
It was really useful.
What it's all about.
I think that's my biggest learning as a mentor is that people hate asking them.
Hm.
And yet they love receiving them with what was coming up for me as you were speaking with is that it's so important.
(07:11):
A reminder that it's really important to sit in both seats.
You know,
it's,
it's not something you just give to someone and to use that in that thinking space.
You suddenly have that,
aha.
Moment of this is,
I haven't noticed particularly what you said exactly what is helping me.
Yeah.
So if you're new to listening to the Coaching Inn and you're going,
what are they talking about?
(07:31):
I'll put a link in the show notes,
but basically these are the questions that we ask at the beginning of a conversation so that we're absolutely clear.
What are we doing today?
How are we going to do it?
And how are we going to know we've done it?
And our little acronym for those questions is Stokers cos that's once upon a time that was the letters that began the questions.
(07:52):
But I think we have changed a bit since then.
So,
so Zoe and Ruth and me when we're listening to recordings,
what do we notice works well in that beginning bit?
And what are we noticing makes us that people struggle with more?
(08:17):
I think that,
I think people,
hm,
what am I saying?
Asking that initial question?
What do you want to think about?
Feels like that that becomes quite natural for people.
They quite like that as a starting point that,
you know,
OK,
great.
This is over to you kind of thing that starting in that way asking that question feels like quite a natural question to ask and even actually asking time people find relatively easy.
(08:50):
I think at that moment in the conversation.
So those first two questions feel like they flow quite well for a lot of people in the recordings I listen to.
Anyway.
What do you think,
Zoe?
I would agree.
The start feels the easy,
the easy end.
I,
I think,
you know,
asking what you want to think about or what's your question for?
(09:11):
Very comfortable?
I think it's when you get to the middle to the end,
the last few questions where I've,
I've noticed on my journey and for those,
you know,
we're listening to,
that's where it feels,
particularly the role question.
Um I think people sometimes get stuck with.
Yeah.
And I think often people abandon after the time question.
(09:36):
So in the time we've got,
which bit of that do you want to think about?
And the thinker starts talking and then the coach dives into the stuff that's coming up.
But the thing is that we don't know where we're heading.
So I had a conversation with Pernell who's,
um for listeners.
She's one of our mentors who you may well have met.
Um And Pernell says that one of the things that she notices is weakest in most coaching recordings is the end.
(10:03):
And we had a conversation this morning actually about it and we were talking about the fact that the end is weak when the beginning is weak because the end begins at the beginning.
So unless we say,
what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation,
which is the outcome question.
So that's the O and Stokers.
Unless we ask that we aren't,
(10:23):
we haven't agreed together what direction we're going in.
But I just want to give her a free pass to everybody.
It honestly doesn't matter if the person that we're talking to doesn't know the answer to any of these.
And absolutely,
we have to not make them answer them,
but we do still have to ask them.
(10:44):
So if I say,
what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation?
And they say,
I don't know what's the matter,
then I'll ask the no question.
How will you know that we've moved this forward a bit?
Mm.
It's about putting the power in the right place,
isn't it about?
(11:04):
This is not about me and about what I'm gonna tell you,
we're gonna do.
This is about us doing something together and it's all,
it's all gonna come from you and also being ok with that relaxed,
you know,
so if they don't know the answer or if they're not sure yet that there's more that in a panic of it's that presence,
(11:25):
you know,
in the IC F com companies,
isn't it?
Of there's an ease about this.
No one's freaking out.
If no one knows the answer,
we're just having a conversation and yeah,
and,
and I think that that how will,
you know,
is the most important question in the whole of that beginning bit apart from which bit.
(11:50):
And what's of what often happens with people is they maybe,
maybe ask the outcome question and they assume the rest,
well,
they've said,
what,
what is gonna be different.
So,
of course,
that's how they all know although,
and then they,
and then they start,
whereas actually it misses a big bit because the no question tends to kind of go deeper internally,
(12:11):
doesn't it kind of brings this thing into me?
And I think most coaches know that what we end up doing isn't what we agreed to do.
Yeah.
And that's fine.
But the thing that's really interesting is I don't think the,
how will,
you know,
changes.
(12:32):
So if you say to somebody,
how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward,
which is my preferred way of asking it.
So,
the books and the website are always behind the learning,
aren't they?
But how will,
how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward a bit that really takes the pressure off.
Cos,
of course,
we don't need to find a fully formed solution,
but they'll go,
I'll feel a bit less sick.
(12:56):
Yeah.
And,
and,
and the no question for me is the one that is easiest to check in on.
Mhm.
Cos then I can say five minutes later,
how sick are you feeling now?
And they'll go almost always.
They go.
Oh,
I'm feeling act.
Actually,
I'm feeling a little less sick now.
(13:18):
They really can see and feel and experience that they've moved forward.
And now the rest of the conversation becomes much more fluid and easy and fluent.
Mhm.
And I join you.
But I miss,
when we ask the,
no question that's often where that's the longest pause as in they're going.
Hm.
Whereas,
not always,
but up until that point it's like I want to talk about this and da da da and,
(13:40):
and there's this,
oh,
I,
no,
no one's asked me that.
I,
I don't know how I know and,
and that,
as we often say,
when there's the pause,
that's when there's the new thinking.
And absolutely,
and I think we need to soften the questions.
So how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward a bit is received in a completely different way from a question that has a version of how will you know that we've formed a fully formed solution at which point they go,
(14:03):
I've come for coaching cos I haven't got a solution.
Now.
You've told me we've got to know we've got a fully formed solution and I don't know that we're gonna get there.
I,
I love that.
I love that phrase forward a bit.
That's really nice.
I,
I might start trying it like that,
I think,
can I just tell you a bit is my absolutely top most favorite coaching phrase ever.
(14:29):
It just makes everything easier.
Isn't it very human and normal.
It's like stuff.
You just don't have to find complicated words for things.
So,
so sometimes you'll say to somebody what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation?
And they go world peace or whatever their version is of that?
At which point you go,
(14:50):
oh no.
And then you go,
how will,
you know,
we've got world peace at which point?
Everybody's panicking.
So how will,
you know,
we've moved that forward a bit.
It's just so much lighter,
it's more relaxed as you were saying it,
there's just an ease about it,
(15:11):
you know,
it's like we can all breathe.
We've only got to move forward a bit like you said,
we're not gonna have a fo we're not gonna wrap it up with a bow by the end of this.
And I think that sometimes I think certainly in newer coaches,
it's like we've gotta fix this in whatever time we've got.
Whereas if we've only got to move it forward a bit,
then we could all just chill out a bit.
(15:32):
Yeah.
And that makes me think Zoe is something that,
um,
observing recordings.
I think I see quite a lot.
Is that kind of anxiety to,
to do the thing?
Yeah.
Um Yeah,
(15:52):
and coming back to your point,
Claire is I,
I think that's what makes it sometimes rushed.
Do you mean it's like I've got to ask my questions and we've got to know the answers and I think it,
that anxiety creates that rushing of just cos once we've done those,
surely I'll know what I'm doing.
And,
you know,
when you're relaxed,
when you ask there,
yeah,
it makes a difference to the pace of the whole conversation.
(16:13):
But sometimes the work is happening in the right sizing and sometimes the right sizing will take 20 minutes.
Yeah.
But I think the art is,
this isn't about me getting completely clear in my mind that I know what you want to do.
It's actually about us getting clear about what's going to help you to move forward on this.
(16:35):
And often the right sizing questions begin to br to move the thing forward.
But I think one of the things that makes it more normal and makes it sound less like a machine gun is to,
is to find a way of not asking the questions in isolation.
(16:55):
So I'm,
I imagine when you're listening to a,
to,
to recordings of beginner coaches and growing coaches,
you'll find that they know that they need to ask the question.
So the thinker will say something,
the coach will pause and then they'll ask the next right sizing question.
So they'll say,
I wanna think about all these things and then the coach will pause and they'll go.
(17:20):
So in the 15 minutes we have,
which bit of that do you wanna think about?
But actually,
this is a conversation we need to make some kind of connection with what they've just said otherwise it feels like we're not listening.
So,
so that might be,
ah,
so there's a lot of stuff there.
Which bit of that would you like us to think about in this 15 minutes or?
(17:44):
Ah,
so something about strategy and something about joy,
which bit of that would you like us to think about in the,
in this 15 minutes?
Just making some kind of,
of sound that connects what we're saying with what they're saying,
(18:05):
stops us sounding like a bot or artificial intelligence.
That's just throwing out the next question.
It's more of a conversation then rather than I'm doing something to you and I'm just gonna keep spitting questions at you.
And that,
that doesn't,
yeah,
feel helpful,
does it?
Um I think one of the most helpful things someone said to me very early on,
(18:28):
I,
I don't know what training it was.
And so I said it might the right sizing what Stokers might take the,
you know,
nearly all of the session.
But if you have helped them clarify their question,
you know,
they could get an insight in the last five minutes.
So don't,
don't feel it's like you've got to get it done and then we'll do the real work.
Actually,
the,
the work can sometimes be just getting really clear on the question.
And yeah,
(18:48):
cos if I'm overwhelmed with something and by the end of the session,
I understand what the thing is,
then I can find the answer much more easily or find the next thing.
One of the things that makes one of the things that I notice sometimes people say is they'll say,
what question would you like us to answer today?
(19:08):
Because it says question,
I hear that a lot in recordings.
So instead of saying,
what's your question,
which if you haven't read,
simplifying,
coaching,
lovely listeners,
gets people thinking much and moving forward much more easily than what's your problem or what's your issue?
But you say,
what's your question?
But they feel as though they need to make it their own and in making it their own,
(19:31):
they say so,
what's your question that you'd like us to answer today?
Mm.
And that gets us into the world of fully formed solutions and then that can make the rest of the conversation a bit more tricky.
So,
yeah,
just say,
say that again.
What's the phrase that you prefer?
What's the question you'd like to think about today?
(19:53):
What's the question you'd like to think about today?
Instead of what's the question you'd like to answer today?
You'd like to?
Ah,
ok.
So it's think about not answer.
And I love,
what is your question?
And it sometimes,
you know,
II,
I think I've seen you Ruth once,
check in with and our questions like,
you know,
you're,
you're part way through it and our question because we go back in you know,
(20:14):
think it might go back into the whole,
you know,
world of what they were bringing and I think it just brings them and it's another one where I think there's a pause afterwards,
you know.
So I know I want to think about but what's my question about it?
Oh,
no,
it's another,
oh,
no one's asked me that.
Um,
it really sharpens it.
I think that one,
I love those pauses.
(20:35):
Yes.
They,
they show us,
don't they?
That the think is starting to think and if that's the only thing that's happening,
that's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zoe,
you said something about the hating of the roll question,
but name the elephant.
Will you please?
(20:56):
We just,
I feel in my experience being on as a coach and mentoring people,
it's the one people find hardest to answer and,
and so there's that fear of I'm gonna ask,
they're not gonna answer.
Oh pads.
That's when it just gets awkward and it looks like I don't know what I'm doing.
Um And so,
(21:17):
and it's something I found helpful is just finding different language of the,
seeing other coaches in different stages,
just find the way of,
you know,
heard someone say,
I think it was paranal,
you know,
how,
how can I get the best out of your heart and mind today?
You know,
and I thought that's a lovely way of adapting,
you know,
but,
and it's her,
her brilliant self,
but it's just different ways of saying,
(21:38):
how can I help you in your thinking or?
But it's,
I think it's an important one but it's the easiest to skip because we don't want an awkwardness.
That's so interesting because I absolutely love that.
And that's,
I,
how can I help you?
And actually,
so it says roll cos,
(21:59):
that's what I used to ask.
And that's where Stokers came from.
But now there's no r in anything I ever say.
So,
what do you say?
How do you say it now?
I,
I say,
what's the best way for us to do this?
Oh,
so that's like us,
isn't it?
Yeah,
us.
So that's us.
And 99 times out of 100 they say,
(22:20):
I don't know.
But what I want to say to everybody is it doesn't matter.
But what you've said is what's the best way for us to do this because that's for us to decide,
not for me to decide.
So,
what you're doing is you're planting the seed that this is a different kind of conversation because,
(22:45):
mm,
almost.
I would think probably no other professional in a DTIC.
1 to 1 conversation is going to be that ignorant.
What's the best way for us to do this?
They wanna go.
I don't know.
That's why I'm paying you.
But actually what we're saying is what's the best way for us to do this?
(23:07):
Let's work it out.
But,
and then they go,
I don't know.
And I'll then immediately go.
That's fine.
So,
where should we start?
I think I've heard quite a lot of recordings in mental sessions where there's been an assumption that we need to have the answer to that before we can move on and then it gets really awkward,
(23:27):
embarrassing,
uncomfortable,
difficult and stopping.
Mm So,
so for me,
the whole of the right sizing process,
all of those questions are about getting the person in flow and getting a bit of a sense of where we're heading probably although we might change our minds on the way.
(23:48):
Yeah.
So it's about movement more than it is about specific answers.
There's a lovely theme to what we're saying about just being light about everything.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think in mentoring and again,
having received mentoring,
I think one of my biggest takeaways was just relax and,
(24:08):
and it,
I think it just sets the tone for the conversation and that's important that if we are relaxed as we ask those questions,
it it helps them ease and relax into a conversation.
I think one of the things I noticed is that those that the Stoker questions or the right sizing piece tends to be a lot,
(24:28):
generally,
not all the time,
a lot pacier than the rest of the conversation.
There's a,
there's a sense of momentum through that.
And then we kind of go into the,
the,
the,
the,
the slightly different pace of the rest of the conversation.
I don't know if that's just me but that it,
it feels like it's a bit more,
(24:52):
there's a bit more energy there and then we go,
OK,
now we know right space.
I just gonna say,
yeah,
it ends up.
Yeah.
Uh Dorothy Strachan and other people.
This is,
this is often allocated to different people so that there are three phases in a conversation.
What?
So what now what?
(25:14):
Yeah,
so what we're describing is the right sizing is the what bit,
isn't it?
What are we doing?
And then the,
so what is where you're describing?
Ruth the slowing down.
And I,
one of the things I'm playing with is the sound of the beginning,
the middle and the end cos I think that the you describe there the pace,
yes and the place is going to be different in the beginning,
(25:36):
the middle and the end and also the tone probably is going to be different.
And one of the arts of artful coaching I think is making that is,
is being more clear about the different sound and pace of the beginning,
the middle and the end cos one of the reasons we don't end well is that we stay with the middle pace right up to one minute to the end and then we go,
(26:03):
oh no,
we've run out of time.
Oh dear,
never mind.
In fact,
when you say sound,
what do you mean?
So um if I use the question.
So I like that question.
I probably over like it,
I probably need therapy about how much I like that question.
(26:23):
So in the middle,
if I use it as a sense making question,
I might go.
So cos that's got an exploring sound to it.
Whereas in the end phase in the now what,
which is the kind of action phase of the conversation?
I say to you um what insights have you had?
(26:48):
And you go,
actually,
I really need to do this thing then I might go.
So,
so my soul will sound different.
So it will be shorter and probably higher in tone because it's evoking action.
Whereas in the middle,
it's evoking exploration.
So how we u use noises,
(27:11):
I need to write that down cos I don't think I knew that before but how well I did but not quite as clearly as that.
Um how we use noises to evoke exploration and evoke action are different.
That's really interesting,
isn't it?
No,
I haven't.
I mean,
we talk about town quite a bit of mentoring,
(27:33):
but that's,
yeah.
Hm.
It is in chapter 10 of the new book,
but actually,
I was much more articulate in the last two minutes and I've now written it down excellent in the book.
(27:54):
I it in the book literally.
Oh yeah,
you should see it.
Nobody,
nobody will want to buy the book when they see how many corrections I've got in my coffee,
don't say it like that.
Say it like this.
Hm.
And,
and that must be true for the whole conversation.
Then there's different,
(28:18):
uh,
a different tone,
different sounds and different parts.
And it's probably really important that we don't see that as a formula.
Completely normal and natural.
And in the moment,
but I've learned it because of course,
I think we do our best learning from listening to other people's recordings.
(28:38):
I've learned it particularly from the,
um,
sound is that you'll hear.
C can I just say it's a really privileged place to listen to a recording,
cos you can do all the learning and none of the work.
But the coach will say the coach will come to the recording and say something was a bit weird about this recording.
(29:00):
And often what will happen is that the,
is that the thinker will have had an in a really massive insight in the middle.
Mhm.
When they're deep in exploring and the thinker will have had an insight and the coach responds.
Mhm.
And neither the thinker nor the coach.
Mhm.
(29:22):
Nail the insight and then they'll keep getting lost and then 15 minutes later,
they'll come back to the same insight that we actually heard on the recording they had 15 minutes ago.
And the reason for that is that the coach is using an exploring sound to respond to the insight rather than going.
(29:42):
Ah,
so,
so the thinker will say,
um,
Oh,
it's so difficult and it's really hard and I'm very stuck with this and it's been stuck for a long time.
But actually I wonder whether it's something to do with,
with how I begin every day.
And maybe,
actually that's what it is.
It's about how I begin every day.
(30:04):
And the coach goes.
Hm.
As in,
keep talking and then the thinker goes.
Yeah,
cos it's been going on for all,
every day of my life.
It's been like this and it's really been awful and now I'm going to get myself stuck.
Whereas if the coach was really listening,
there was an insight there.
But if you respond to an insight with,
(30:24):
mm,
the person will keep exploring whereas if they go.
Oh,
yeah,
I think maybe that was a bit,
you know,
maybe I,
maybe I do understand that a bit.
Ah,
that says,
look at what you just said,
something just happened there.
Hm.
And if you watch the music of conversations you can often see that that's where the loop happens and,
(30:47):
and,
and it,
and they get stuck and sometimes they unstuck themselves and sometimes they don't.
I'm,
I'm really glad you said that because I,
uh,
I've heard you say,
ah,
quite a lot in conversations and I've sometimes thought is that,
(31:07):
uh,
it,
it,
is that a helpful interjection right now?
And now I'm hearing you talk about it,
I can hear it differently.
It's,
it,
it's kind of like a,
a bit of punctuation.
That is,
it is like an asterisk,
isn't it?
I'm like,
just notice that bit there.
(31:29):
Yeah.
And I had such a big insight which I need to write in my book cos I haven't written it down and I had such a big insight when I was working with somebody the other day because they said,
isn't it leading?
And it isn't,
I think that was my feeling a little bit.
So,
go on,
speak about that.
Yeah,
same more.
I'm just writing it down just one moment.
(31:53):
It isn't leading because I am making the noise after I wonder whether they've had the insight.
So I'm not going,
ah,
you're about to have an insight,
I'm going,
ah,
was that an insight which was,
like,
reflecting back as opposed to it?
Is,
it is cos you might not have noticed you've had an insight.
(32:14):
But if I say,
ah,
that,
for me,
that's another way of saying it with just that.
So it is saying,
have you just had an insight there almost?
Oh,
yeah.
But if you say that then they've lost it.
I realize that that's kind of what you're saying by saying,
ah,
it's very short.
Yeah.
And,
and it often doesn't have any impact,
(32:37):
but on the time because a lot of what we do is useless.
It does a lot of what we do,
an offer doesn't have any impact.
But actually when it has an impact,
it has a massive impact.
So you go,
ah,
and they go,
uh,
yes.
(32:57):
Ok.
We are not in a completely new territory.
So,
I mean,
I have longer versions of that.
Like,
was that an insight?
Yeah.
Or what do you know now that you didn't know before?
But the longer the thing we say is the further it distances them from what they just said.
(33:18):
So I would always start short.
But the,
but the thing that I learned last week,
so thank you for asking,
cos saying it again helps cement it.
Is that,
is that ethically,
those noises need to follow them and not lead them.
Why not leave like that?
I really want to play with that now.
(33:38):
So that's what I was just thinking.
Ah,
ah,
watch out that a little bit before.
Bit less scary.
If you wanna be coached by Zoe or Ruth,
watch out cos they're gonna use these noises with you.
Sounds like crows as we do it.
I do recommend them as thinking partners and now you get a new value for money noise.
(34:03):
So,
yeah,
but if,
and for me,
that's one of the things that I'm playing with in people who are aspiring to be M CCS is,
is really,
and,
you know,
all your,
your people can do this as well is to watch the recording,
see who's leading,
who's following cos the coach needs to be following all the time just behind.
(34:27):
Yeah,
I mean,
in all that we're saying,
one of the things that's coming up for me and I just wish someone had drilled this into me earlier on in my journey was the value of listening back to yourself and watching yourself.
You know,
I remember so clearly the moment I first watched myself and it was video and with slight horror but very rich learning,
(34:48):
you know,
from facial expressions to tone to posture.
And none of that I would have known till that moment.
And that was quite late on in my coaching journey and you know,
to listen and to watch yourself and others is there's so much gold though.
That's why now um quite a lot of people are coming from my supervision groups into what I would call a technical check in which is to say a couple of times a year,
(35:16):
let's get together.
It doesn't matter if you're going for accreditation or not,
but let's just get together.
Let's have a look at a video and let's talk together about the things that are going brilliantly and the things that you might develop to be even better.
Cos actually one of the things I think that does and maybe this is another podcast that we need to record is that really gives us a sense of therefore,
(35:38):
what's the development that I need to do over the next year?
Yes.
Yeah.
So rather than that being an abstract,
what do I fancy doing?
It's kind of coming from the data.
And I,
I wonder so at the moment,
I'm the only one who's doing tech technical check ins.
But I wonder whether we should be offering them to people at any stage.
(36:03):
Um,
it just a one off kind of thing and it's great to,
to watch a recording on your own,
but just a little caveat listeners.
When you're watching the recording,
you don't need to watch yourself and get really self conscious about the fact that you slightly raise your left eyebrow a little bit.
Every time you say,
whatever you say,
what you're watching is the passing the conversation between from screen to screen.
(36:26):
So record gallery view uh really notice that there's a whole chapter in the human behind the coach on how to watch recordings that's not try,
but it's not about professional accreditation.
It's about some really simple basic stuff that can transform the quality of our work.
Mm Brilliant.
(36:49):
So maybe our next mentor co I think we should do this again.
Cos I think it was fun,
a regular little garden.
I love it.
So I have some ideas of what we could do next time.
But listeners,
if you have a convers conversation,
if you want to listen to the three of us having a conversation about something else,
please put in the comments,
what you'd like us to hear us talking about.
(37:10):
We'll make a decision about whether we think we can do what we want to.
Um,
so,
uh thank you everybody for listening.
Thank you,
Ruth and Zoe.
Thank you coming.
Uh If you want to contact any of us,
lovely people.
Info at 3d coaching.com is our address that gets you into our world and we'd love to have a conversation with you if you think there are things that we can do to support you to become even better at what you do.
(37:44):
So,
you've been listening to the Coaching Inn,
I'm Claire Petrick and I've been with Ruth Bennett and Zoe Dickinson.
Thank you all for listening.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Bye,
bye.
If you've enjoyed what you've heard today,
we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
And if you'd like to become a regular at the Coaching Inn,
(38:05):
you can subscribe on pod bean and all major podcast channels,
we look forward to welcoming you next time you've been listening to the Coaching Inn 3D Coaching S virtual pub.
For more information,
check out 3D coaching.com.
You're at the Coaching Inn 3d Coaching Virtual Pub where we enjoy conversations with people who are engaged in the world of coaching.
Welcome to the Coaching Inn.
Uh,
I'm your host,
Claire Pedrick.
And this week I'm in conversation with two of 3d coaching s marvelous mentors,
(00:23):
uh Ruth Bennett and Zoe Dickinson and Zoe.
Hello.
Hi,
nice to be here.
So let's just hear about your coaching journeys and then we'll,
we're gonna think about today,
aren't we?
Um,
what we're learning from mental coaching groups,
um about where coaches are strong and where they can develop.
(00:44):
So,
Ruth,
tell us a little bit about your journey.
Oh,
my journey uh was kind of from youth work,
working with youth workers and hr learning and development through to coaching and having great conversations with people.
And probably about,
uh,
I don't know,
(01:05):
89 years ago,
now I kind of came into the formal world of coaching and I just loved it and particularly seeing people develop in their skills and their kind of um but seeing their development and light bulbs going on because they can do something a bit more simply.
So I really love that side of things.
(01:28):
Fabulous.
Thank you,
Zoe.
Hello.
Hello.
Um I spent a large part of my life and career working for relief and development charity.
Um,
and that's where I'm uh first met Claire and 3D coaching.
So I was in that uh charity working and 3d came in and run a what's now transforming conversations.
(01:48):
And I was thinking about what next?
And I was like,
wow,
this is just,
yeah,
it was a pivotal moment for me,
a turning point of just making space for people to think and have great conversations.
And from then on went on retrained and um self employed for a number of years before joining the 3D team.
(02:09):
Um and yeah,
love,
you know,
being part of that journey with other coaches so experienced it and now get to,
to accompany others on that.
And um and it's exciting.
Yeah,
and you didn't learn Stokers,
did you Zoe?
Because you were in the room on the day.
It was created.
I did not.
So in the moment it didn't exist.
(02:29):
No,
no,
it's amazing.
Yeah.
Uh I have got,
I can't remember his name.
I have got,
I did manage to get in touch with him.
Adrian,
oh Hawthorne,
yes,
Adrian Hawthorne said I need a word to be able to do the practice that you've just told me to do.
There we go.
(02:49):
I've never known who it was.
I know it because Adrian Hawthorne and,
and,
and,
and then it was born and then the next week I took it out and somebody said that's the name of the person on the back of a tandem.
That's amazing.
And,
and that's what unlocked all of this even more simplicity in the way that we do what we do.
(03:11):
Thanks to him and thanks to somebody else the following week in Wales.
Isn't it lovely?
How things just kind of emerge and happen sometimes and kind of a combination of different people?
Yeah.
And you know,
we say,
don't we,
that the people we work with are our best teachers.
But actually,
that's a really good example.
Cos you could sit,
you could sit trying to come up with a framework for,
(03:34):
for ever and ever and not come up with something sensible or come up with something that's a bit convoluted.
Yeah.
But on that day,
he only said that word because that happened to be the random order in which I'd asked the questions or,
or the random order in which the group had said it and that they were randomly on the flip chart.
(03:55):
But the thing that was most extraordinary about the whole process was that on that day,
the time question was second.
Hm.
It wasn't always,
it wasn't always.
But,
but then,
so I,
I used,
I used to write the questions in the,
so I'd do the coaching demo and then I'd say so what were the questions?
(04:16):
I used to frame the conversation and people won't always say it in the order.
You said it.
So I just randomly write them on the flip chart.
And I'm not sure.
I used to ask the time question first.
I think I used to say we've got 15 minutes.
What would you like to think about?
But on that day it said,
what would you like to think about?
(04:36):
And then the second question was so in this 15 minutes and then when it became a word,
everybody did it in that order.
And then I couldn't understand for ages why they were doing so much better.
Why do you think it is better to have that time?
Second?
(04:57):
Because,
because you're actually saying which bit of it cos if so if I say uh what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace?
So if I say we've got 15 minutes,
what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace,
I go inside,
I go,
that's very big.
(05:18):
Whereas if I say,
what do you want to think about?
And you say world peace?
And I just normally say so in the 15 minutes,
we have the automatic sentence completes with which bit of world peace do you want to think about?
And suddenly that's where the right sizing begins to.
Nobody think Claire Petrick came up with Stokers,
(05:39):
Adrian Hawthorne came up with Stokers and somebody else came up with the word,
right?
Sizing.
I was just listening.
Yeah,
I love that.
But,
but that begins to talk about flow,
doesn't it?
Because,
because actually the,
the,
the whole of that Stokers thing,
the question for me is how do I,
(06:00):
how do I ask those questions?
So,
I don't sound like a machine gun.
And how does it have a flow that makes it sound like a normal conversation and not something weird that I'm doing to somebody else?
Hm.
Something about it feeling natural for them and for us isn't there.
Yeah.
And there's a difference between who it feels na uh how it is received and how it is felt,
(06:24):
isn't it?
Because often when people start asking questions that are not necessarily in their own words,
they feel really awkward about it and it feels really clunky that comes up a lot,
doesn't it?
With people saying I can't say that it's not my words and people listening to it go,
oh,
that felt really weird.
But the person on the receiving end is almost always made no difference to me or actually they go.
(06:49):
That was amazing because it really helped me get to the point.
It was really useful.
What it's all about.
I think that's my biggest learning as a mentor is that people hate asking them.
Hm.
And yet they love receiving them with what was coming up for me as you were speaking with is that it's so important.
(07:11):
A reminder that it's really important to sit in both seats.
You know,
it's,
it's not something you just give to someone and to use that in that thinking space.
You suddenly have that,
aha.
Moment of this is,
I haven't noticed particularly what you said exactly what is helping me.
Yeah.
So if you're new to listening to the Coaching Inn and you're going,
what are they talking about?
(07:31):
I'll put a link in the show notes,
but basically these are the questions that we ask at the beginning of a conversation so that we're absolutely clear.
What are we doing today?
How are we going to do it?
And how are we going to know we've done it?
And our little acronym for those questions is Stokers cos that's once upon a time that was the letters that began the questions.
(07:52):
But I think we have changed a bit since then.
So,
so Zoe and Ruth and me when we're listening to recordings,
what do we notice works well in that beginning bit?
And what are we noticing makes us that people struggle with more?
(08:17):
I think that,
I think people,
hm,
what am I saying?
Asking that initial question?
What do you want to think about?
Feels like that that becomes quite natural for people.
They quite like that as a starting point that,
you know,
OK,
great.
This is over to you kind of thing that starting in that way asking that question feels like quite a natural question to ask and even actually asking time people find relatively easy.
(08:50):
I think at that moment in the conversation.
So those first two questions feel like they flow quite well for a lot of people in the recordings I listen to.
Anyway.
What do you think,
Zoe?
I would agree.
The start feels the easy,
the easy end.
I,
I think,
you know,
asking what you want to think about or what's your question for?
(09:11):
Very comfortable?
I think it's when you get to the middle to the end,
the last few questions where I've,
I've noticed on my journey and for those,
you know,
we're listening to,
that's where it feels,
particularly the role question.
Um I think people sometimes get stuck with.
Yeah.
And I think often people abandon after the time question.
(09:36):
So in the time we've got,
which bit of that do you want to think about?
And the thinker starts talking and then the coach dives into the stuff that's coming up.
But the thing is that we don't know where we're heading.
So I had a conversation with Pernell who's,
um for listeners.
She's one of our mentors who you may well have met.
Um And Pernell says that one of the things that she notices is weakest in most coaching recordings is the end.
(10:03):
And we had a conversation this morning actually about it and we were talking about the fact that the end is weak when the beginning is weak because the end begins at the beginning.
So unless we say,
what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation,
which is the outcome question.
So that's the O and Stokers.
Unless we ask that we aren't,
(10:23):
we haven't agreed together what direction we're going in.
But I just want to give her a free pass to everybody.
It honestly doesn't matter if the person that we're talking to doesn't know the answer to any of these.
And absolutely,
we have to not make them answer them,
but we do still have to ask them.
(10:44):
So if I say,
what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation?
And they say,
I don't know what's the matter,
then I'll ask the no question.
How will you know that we've moved this forward a bit?
Mm.
It's about putting the power in the right place,
isn't it about?
(11:04):
This is not about me and about what I'm gonna tell you,
we're gonna do.
This is about us doing something together and it's all,
it's all gonna come from you and also being ok with that relaxed,
you know,
so if they don't know the answer or if they're not sure yet that there's more that in a panic of it's that presence,
(11:25):
you know,
in the IC F com companies,
isn't it?
Of there's an ease about this.
No one's freaking out.
If no one knows the answer,
we're just having a conversation and yeah,
and,
and I think that that how will,
you know,
is the most important question in the whole of that beginning bit apart from which bit.
(11:50):
And what's of what often happens with people is they maybe,
maybe ask the outcome question and they assume the rest,
well,
they've said,
what,
what is gonna be different.
So,
of course,
that's how they all know although,
and then they,
and then they start,
whereas actually it misses a big bit because the no question tends to kind of go deeper internally,
(12:11):
doesn't it kind of brings this thing into me?
And I think most coaches know that what we end up doing isn't what we agreed to do.
Yeah.
And that's fine.
But the thing that's really interesting is I don't think the,
how will,
you know,
changes.
(12:32):
So if you say to somebody,
how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward,
which is my preferred way of asking it.
So,
the books and the website are always behind the learning,
aren't they?
But how will,
how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward a bit that really takes the pressure off.
Cos,
of course,
we don't need to find a fully formed solution,
but they'll go,
I'll feel a bit less sick.
(12:56):
Yeah.
And,
and,
and the no question for me is the one that is easiest to check in on.
Mhm.
Cos then I can say five minutes later,
how sick are you feeling now?
And they'll go almost always.
They go.
Oh,
I'm feeling act.
Actually,
I'm feeling a little less sick now.
(13:18):
They really can see and feel and experience that they've moved forward.
And now the rest of the conversation becomes much more fluid and easy and fluent.
Mhm.
And I join you.
But I miss,
when we ask the,
no question that's often where that's the longest pause as in they're going.
Hm.
Whereas,
not always,
but up until that point it's like I want to talk about this and da da da and,
(13:40):
and there's this,
oh,
I,
no,
no one's asked me that.
I,
I don't know how I know and,
and that,
as we often say,
when there's the pause,
that's when there's the new thinking.
And absolutely,
and I think we need to soften the questions.
So how will,
you know,
we've moved this forward a bit is received in a completely different way from a question that has a version of how will you know that we've formed a fully formed solution at which point they go,
(14:03):
I've come for coaching cos I haven't got a solution.
Now.
You've told me we've got to know we've got a fully formed solution and I don't know that we're gonna get there.
I,
I love that.
I love that phrase forward a bit.
That's really nice.
I,
I might start trying it like that,
I think,
can I just tell you a bit is my absolutely top most favorite coaching phrase ever.
(14:29):
It just makes everything easier.
Isn't it very human and normal.
It's like stuff.
You just don't have to find complicated words for things.
So,
so sometimes you'll say to somebody what would you like to be different by the end of this conversation?
And they go world peace or whatever their version is of that?
At which point you go,
(14:50):
oh no.
And then you go,
how will,
you know,
we've got world peace at which point?
Everybody's panicking.
So how will,
you know,
we've moved that forward a bit.
It's just so much lighter,
it's more relaxed as you were saying it,
there's just an ease about it,
(15:11):
you know,
it's like we can all breathe.
We've only got to move forward a bit like you said,
we're not gonna have a fo we're not gonna wrap it up with a bow by the end of this.
And I think that sometimes I think certainly in newer coaches,
it's like we've gotta fix this in whatever time we've got.
Whereas if we've only got to move it forward a bit,
then we could all just chill out a bit.
(15:32):
Yeah.
And that makes me think Zoe is something that,
um,
observing recordings.
I think I see quite a lot.
Is that kind of anxiety to,
to do the thing?
Yeah.
Um Yeah,
(15:52):
and coming back to your point,
Claire is I,
I think that's what makes it sometimes rushed.
Do you mean it's like I've got to ask my questions and we've got to know the answers and I think it,
that anxiety creates that rushing of just cos once we've done those,
surely I'll know what I'm doing.
And,
you know,
when you're relaxed,
when you ask there,
yeah,
it makes a difference to the pace of the whole conversation.
(16:13):
But sometimes the work is happening in the right sizing and sometimes the right sizing will take 20 minutes.
Yeah.
But I think the art is,
this isn't about me getting completely clear in my mind that I know what you want to do.
It's actually about us getting clear about what's going to help you to move forward on this.
(16:35):
And often the right sizing questions begin to br to move the thing forward.
But I think one of the things that makes it more normal and makes it sound less like a machine gun is to,
is to find a way of not asking the questions in isolation.
(16:55):
So I'm,
I imagine when you're listening to a,
to,
to recordings of beginner coaches and growing coaches,
you'll find that they know that they need to ask the question.
So the thinker will say something,
the coach will pause and then they'll ask the next right sizing question.
So they'll say,
I wanna think about all these things and then the coach will pause and they'll go.
(17:20):
So in the 15 minutes we have,
which bit of that do you wanna think about?
But actually,
this is a conversation we need to make some kind of connection with what they've just said otherwise it feels like we're not listening.
So,
so that might be,
ah,
so there's a lot of stuff there.
Which bit of that would you like us to think about in this 15 minutes or?
(17:44):
Ah,
so something about strategy and something about joy,
which bit of that would you like us to think about in the,
in this 15 minutes?
Just making some kind of,
of sound that connects what we're saying with what they're saying,
(18:05):
stops us sounding like a bot or artificial intelligence.
That's just throwing out the next question.
It's more of a conversation then rather than I'm doing something to you and I'm just gonna keep spitting questions at you.
And that,
that doesn't,
yeah,
feel helpful,
does it?
Um I think one of the most helpful things someone said to me very early on,
(18:28):
I,
I don't know what training it was.
And so I said it might the right sizing what Stokers might take the,
you know,
nearly all of the session.
But if you have helped them clarify their question,
you know,
they could get an insight in the last five minutes.
So don't,
don't feel it's like you've got to get it done and then we'll do the real work.
Actually,
the,
the work can sometimes be just getting really clear on the question.
And yeah,
(18:48):
cos if I'm overwhelmed with something and by the end of the session,
I understand what the thing is,
then I can find the answer much more easily or find the next thing.
One of the things that makes one of the things that I notice sometimes people say is they'll say,
what question would you like us to answer today?
(19:08):
Because it says question,
I hear that a lot in recordings.
So instead of saying,
what's your question,
which if you haven't read,
simplifying,
coaching,
lovely listeners,
gets people thinking much and moving forward much more easily than what's your problem or what's your issue?
But you say,
what's your question?
But they feel as though they need to make it their own and in making it their own,
(19:31):
they say so,
what's your question that you'd like us to answer today?
Mm.
And that gets us into the world of fully formed solutions and then that can make the rest of the conversation a bit more tricky.
So,
yeah,
just say,
say that again.
What's the phrase that you prefer?
What's the question you'd like to think about today?
(19:53):
What's the question you'd like to think about today?
Instead of what's the question you'd like to answer today?
You'd like to?
Ah,
ok.
So it's think about not answer.
And I love,
what is your question?
And it sometimes,
you know,
II,
I think I've seen you Ruth once,
check in with and our questions like,
you know,
you're,
you're part way through it and our question because we go back in you know,
(20:14):
think it might go back into the whole,
you know,
world of what they were bringing and I think it just brings them and it's another one where I think there's a pause afterwards,
you know.
So I know I want to think about but what's my question about it?
Oh,
no,
it's another,
oh,
no one's asked me that.
Um,
it really sharpens it.
I think that one,
I love those pauses.
(20:35):
Yes.
They,
they show us,
don't they?
That the think is starting to think and if that's the only thing that's happening,
that's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zoe,
you said something about the hating of the roll question,
but name the elephant.
Will you please?
(20:56):
We just,
I feel in my experience being on as a coach and mentoring people,
it's the one people find hardest to answer and,
and so there's that fear of I'm gonna ask,
they're not gonna answer.
Oh pads.
That's when it just gets awkward and it looks like I don't know what I'm doing.
Um And so,
(21:17):
and it's something I found helpful is just finding different language of the,
seeing other coaches in different stages,
just find the way of,
you know,
heard someone say,
I think it was paranal,
you know,
how,
how can I get the best out of your heart and mind today?
You know,
and I thought that's a lovely way of adapting,
you know,
but,
and it's her,
her brilliant self,
but it's just different ways of saying,
(21:38):
how can I help you in your thinking or?
But it's,
I think it's an important one but it's the easiest to skip because we don't want an awkwardness.
That's so interesting because I absolutely love that.
And that's,
I,
how can I help you?
And actually,
so it says roll cos,
(21:59):
that's what I used to ask.
And that's where Stokers came from.
But now there's no r in anything I ever say.
So,
what do you say?
How do you say it now?
I,
I say,
what's the best way for us to do this?
Oh,
so that's like us,
isn't it?
Yeah,
us.
So that's us.
And 99 times out of 100 they say,
(22:20):
I don't know.
But what I want to say to everybody is it doesn't matter.
But what you've said is what's the best way for us to do this because that's for us to decide,
not for me to decide.
So,
what you're doing is you're planting the seed that this is a different kind of conversation because,
(22:45):
mm,
almost.
I would think probably no other professional in a DTIC.
1 to 1 conversation is going to be that ignorant.
What's the best way for us to do this?
They wanna go.
I don't know.
That's why I'm paying you.
But actually what we're saying is what's the best way for us to do this?
(23:07):
Let's work it out.
But,
and then they go,
I don't know.
And I'll then immediately go.
That's fine.
So,
where should we start?
I think I've heard quite a lot of recordings in mental sessions where there's been an assumption that we need to have the answer to that before we can move on and then it gets really awkward,
(23:27):
embarrassing,
uncomfortable,
difficult and stopping.
Mm So,
so for me,
the whole of the right sizing process,
all of those questions are about getting the person in flow and getting a bit of a sense of where we're heading probably although we might change our minds on the way.
(23:48):
Yeah.
So it's about movement more than it is about specific answers.
There's a lovely theme to what we're saying about just being light about everything.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think in mentoring and again,
having received mentoring,
I think one of my biggest takeaways was just relax and,
(24:08):
and it,
I think it just sets the tone for the conversation and that's important that if we are relaxed as we ask those questions,
it it helps them ease and relax into a conversation.
I think one of the things I noticed is that those that the Stoker questions or the right sizing piece tends to be a lot,
(24:28):
generally,
not all the time,
a lot pacier than the rest of the conversation.
There's a,
there's a sense of momentum through that.
And then we kind of go into the,
the,
the,
the,
the slightly different pace of the rest of the conversation.
I don't know if that's just me but that it,
it feels like it's a bit more,
(24:52):
there's a bit more energy there and then we go,
OK,
now we know right space.
I just gonna say,
yeah,
it ends up.
Yeah.
Uh Dorothy Strachan and other people.
This is,
this is often allocated to different people so that there are three phases in a conversation.
What?
So what now what?
(25:14):
Yeah,
so what we're describing is the right sizing is the what bit,
isn't it?
What are we doing?
And then the,
so what is where you're describing?
Ruth the slowing down.
And I,
one of the things I'm playing with is the sound of the beginning,
the middle and the end cos I think that the you describe there the pace,
yes and the place is going to be different in the beginning,
(25:36):
the middle and the end and also the tone probably is going to be different.
And one of the arts of artful coaching I think is making that is,
is being more clear about the different sound and pace of the beginning,
the middle and the end cos one of the reasons we don't end well is that we stay with the middle pace right up to one minute to the end and then we go,
(26:03):
oh no,
we've run out of time.
Oh dear,
never mind.
In fact,
when you say sound,
what do you mean?
So um if I use the question.
So I like that question.
I probably over like it,
I probably need therapy about how much I like that question.
(26:23):
So in the middle,
if I use it as a sense making question,
I might go.
So cos that's got an exploring sound to it.
Whereas in the end phase in the now what,
which is the kind of action phase of the conversation?
I say to you um what insights have you had?
(26:48):
And you go,
actually,
I really need to do this thing then I might go.
So,
so my soul will sound different.
So it will be shorter and probably higher in tone because it's evoking action.
Whereas in the middle,
it's evoking exploration.
So how we u use noises,
(27:11):
I need to write that down cos I don't think I knew that before but how well I did but not quite as clearly as that.
Um how we use noises to evoke exploration and evoke action are different.
That's really interesting,
isn't it?
No,
I haven't.
I mean,
we talk about town quite a bit of mentoring,
(27:33):
but that's,
yeah.
Hm.
It is in chapter 10 of the new book,
but actually,
I was much more articulate in the last two minutes and I've now written it down excellent in the book.
(27:54):
I it in the book literally.
Oh yeah,
you should see it.
Nobody,
nobody will want to buy the book when they see how many corrections I've got in my coffee,
don't say it like that.
Say it like this.
Hm.
And,
and that must be true for the whole conversation.
Then there's different,
(28:18):
uh,
a different tone,
different sounds and different parts.
And it's probably really important that we don't see that as a formula.
Completely normal and natural.
And in the moment,
but I've learned it because of course,
I think we do our best learning from listening to other people's recordings.
(28:38):
I've learned it particularly from the,
um,
sound is that you'll hear.
C can I just say it's a really privileged place to listen to a recording,
cos you can do all the learning and none of the work.
But the coach will say the coach will come to the recording and say something was a bit weird about this recording.
(29:00):
And often what will happen is that the,
is that the thinker will have had an in a really massive insight in the middle.
Mhm.
When they're deep in exploring and the thinker will have had an insight and the coach responds.
Mhm.
And neither the thinker nor the coach.
Mhm.
(29:22):
Nail the insight and then they'll keep getting lost and then 15 minutes later,
they'll come back to the same insight that we actually heard on the recording they had 15 minutes ago.
And the reason for that is that the coach is using an exploring sound to respond to the insight rather than going.
(29:42):
Ah,
so,
so the thinker will say,
um,
Oh,
it's so difficult and it's really hard and I'm very stuck with this and it's been stuck for a long time.
But actually I wonder whether it's something to do with,
with how I begin every day.
And maybe,
actually that's what it is.
It's about how I begin every day.
(30:04):
And the coach goes.
Hm.
As in,
keep talking and then the thinker goes.
Yeah,
cos it's been going on for all,
every day of my life.
It's been like this and it's really been awful and now I'm going to get myself stuck.
Whereas if the coach was really listening,
there was an insight there.
But if you respond to an insight with,
(30:24):
mm,
the person will keep exploring whereas if they go.
Oh,
yeah,
I think maybe that was a bit,
you know,
maybe I,
maybe I do understand that a bit.
Ah,
that says,
look at what you just said,
something just happened there.
Hm.
And if you watch the music of conversations you can often see that that's where the loop happens and,
(30:47):
and,
and it,
and they get stuck and sometimes they unstuck themselves and sometimes they don't.
I'm,
I'm really glad you said that because I,
uh,
I've heard you say,
ah,
quite a lot in conversations and I've sometimes thought is that,
(31:07):
uh,
it,
it,
is that a helpful interjection right now?
And now I'm hearing you talk about it,
I can hear it differently.
It's,
it,
it's kind of like a,
a bit of punctuation.
That is,
it is like an asterisk,
isn't it?
I'm like,
just notice that bit there.
(31:29):
Yeah.
And I had such a big insight which I need to write in my book cos I haven't written it down and I had such a big insight when I was working with somebody the other day because they said,
isn't it leading?
And it isn't,
I think that was my feeling a little bit.
So,
go on,
speak about that.
Yeah,
same more.
I'm just writing it down just one moment.
(31:53):
It isn't leading because I am making the noise after I wonder whether they've had the insight.
So I'm not going,
ah,
you're about to have an insight,
I'm going,
ah,
was that an insight which was,
like,
reflecting back as opposed to it?
Is,
it is cos you might not have noticed you've had an insight.
(32:14):
But if I say,
ah,
that,
for me,
that's another way of saying it with just that.
So it is saying,
have you just had an insight there almost?
Oh,
yeah.
But if you say that then they've lost it.
I realize that that's kind of what you're saying by saying,
ah,
it's very short.
Yeah.
And,
and it often doesn't have any impact,
(32:37):
but on the time because a lot of what we do is useless.
It does a lot of what we do,
an offer doesn't have any impact.
But actually when it has an impact,
it has a massive impact.
So you go,
ah,
and they go,
uh,
yes.
(32:57):
Ok.
We are not in a completely new territory.
So,
I mean,
I have longer versions of that.
Like,
was that an insight?
Yeah.
Or what do you know now that you didn't know before?
But the longer the thing we say is the further it distances them from what they just said.
(33:18):
So I would always start short.
But the,
but the thing that I learned last week,
so thank you for asking,
cos saying it again helps cement it.
Is that,
is that ethically,
those noises need to follow them and not lead them.
Why not leave like that?
I really want to play with that now.
(33:38):
So that's what I was just thinking.
Ah,
ah,
watch out that a little bit before.
Bit less scary.
If you wanna be coached by Zoe or Ruth,
watch out cos they're gonna use these noises with you.
Sounds like crows as we do it.
I do recommend them as thinking partners and now you get a new value for money noise.
(34:03):
So,
yeah,
but if,
and for me,
that's one of the things that I'm playing with in people who are aspiring to be M CCS is,
is really,
and,
you know,
all your,
your people can do this as well is to watch the recording,
see who's leading,
who's following cos the coach needs to be following all the time just behind.
(34:27):
Yeah,
I mean,
in all that we're saying,
one of the things that's coming up for me and I just wish someone had drilled this into me earlier on in my journey was the value of listening back to yourself and watching yourself.
You know,
I remember so clearly the moment I first watched myself and it was video and with slight horror but very rich learning,
(34:48):
you know,
from facial expressions to tone to posture.
And none of that I would have known till that moment.
And that was quite late on in my coaching journey and you know,
to listen and to watch yourself and others is there's so much gold though.
That's why now um quite a lot of people are coming from my supervision groups into what I would call a technical check in which is to say a couple of times a year,
(35:16):
let's get together.
It doesn't matter if you're going for accreditation or not,
but let's just get together.
Let's have a look at a video and let's talk together about the things that are going brilliantly and the things that you might develop to be even better.
Cos actually one of the things I think that does and maybe this is another podcast that we need to record is that really gives us a sense of therefore,
(35:38):
what's the development that I need to do over the next year?
Yes.
Yeah.
So rather than that being an abstract,
what do I fancy doing?
It's kind of coming from the data.
And I,
I wonder so at the moment,
I'm the only one who's doing tech technical check ins.
But I wonder whether we should be offering them to people at any stage.
(36:03):
Um,
it just a one off kind of thing and it's great to,
to watch a recording on your own,
but just a little caveat listeners.
When you're watching the recording,
you don't need to watch yourself and get really self conscious about the fact that you slightly raise your left eyebrow a little bit.
Every time you say,
whatever you say,
what you're watching is the passing the conversation between from screen to screen.
(36:26):
So record gallery view uh really notice that there's a whole chapter in the human behind the coach on how to watch recordings that's not try,
but it's not about professional accreditation.
It's about some really simple basic stuff that can transform the quality of our work.
Mm Brilliant.
(36:49):
So maybe our next mentor co I think we should do this again.
Cos I think it was fun,
a regular little garden.
I love it.
So I have some ideas of what we could do next time.
But listeners,
if you have a convers conversation,
if you want to listen to the three of us having a conversation about something else,
please put in the comments,
what you'd like us to hear us talking about.
(37:10):
We'll make a decision about whether we think we can do what we want to.
Um,
so,
uh thank you everybody for listening.
Thank you,
Ruth and Zoe.
Thank you coming.
Uh If you want to contact any of us,
lovely people.
Info at 3d coaching.com is our address that gets you into our world and we'd love to have a conversation with you if you think there are things that we can do to support you to become even better at what you do.
(37:44):
So,
you've been listening to the Coaching Inn,
I'm Claire Petrick and I've been with Ruth Bennett and Zoe Dickinson.
Thank you all for listening.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Bye,
bye.
If you've enjoyed what you've heard today,
we'd love you to share the podcast with a friend or leave a comment on social media.
And if you'd like to become a regular at the Coaching Inn,
(38:05):
you can subscribe on pod bean and all major podcast channels,
we look forward to welcoming you next time you've been listening to the Coaching Inn 3D Coaching S virtual pub.
For more information,
check out 3D coaching.com.
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