What happens when your publisher goes into administration the week before your book launch? Dr. Paul Taylor-Pitt joins Claire Pedrick at The Coaching Inn. Instead of our plan to talk about the launch of his book Still Here Still Queer Now What?, Paul shares his journey of embracing vulnerability and authenticity, sharing the unexpected twists in his book journey and the importance of staying true to yourself.
If you’d like to join save our stories, sign the petition here https://stillherestillqueernowwhat.com/sos
Paul’s podcasts are
- Still Here, Still Queer, Now What?
- Hopecast
- Exploring the Heart of Change
Contact:
- Contact Paul through Linked In
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
- Find out more about 3D Coaching and get new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Transforming Care - The Impact of using Action Learning in Residential Childcare
Keywords:
vulnerability, authenticity, book journey, Dr. Paul Taylor-Pitt, coaching, personal growth, storytelling, resilience, change, LGBTQ, self-help, inspiration, life lessons, podcast, leadership, personal development, unexpected challenges, embracing change, authenticity in coaching, navigating uncertainty
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello.
Mostly when we hear stories of people's ups and downs and not knowing and tricky things,they're telling them in the past tense.
So it's an absolute delight and privilege to introduce you to today's episode, wheresomebody is talking about not knowing and vulnerability and is absolutely right bang stuck
in the middle of it.
(00:21):
I've been talking to Paul Taylor Pitt for a long time about his upcoming book,
Still Here Still Queer Now What?
And this episode has been lined up for this week because it's launch week, Except itisn't, because the publisher has gone into administration.
(00:42):
So listen up to find out about Paul's book, find out about his magic string of paperclips, and listen to the story of somebody who is right there in the not knowing zone.
and so much to learn and I didn't ask him any of the questions that I had lined up becausewhat we talked about seemed more important in the moment so I'd love to hear what you
(01:09):
think send us an email info@3dcoaching.com and if you like like this episode do share itand subscribe or follow where you download your podcasts.
Over to you.
(01:36):
Welcome to The Coaching Inn.
I am your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with a coach, OD consultant,author, lovely person, uh Paul Taylor-Pitt.
Welcome to The Coaching Inn, Paul.
Thank you for having me.
On karaoke night in The Coaching Inn.
(01:56):
Well, that was a surprise.
Watch out listeners, here it comes.
So in the music of your choice, you better be careful because I've been to seeShowstoppers the musical.
Wow, okay.
And would you have like a go-to track if someone like, don't, I can't sing, but if yousuddenly found yourself in a karaoke night and someone said, okay, Claire, you're up next.
(02:24):
Would you be like, hit it?
Well, it would have to be something I could remember the words.
But the words are there, that's karaoke.
That's true.
it would be eighties.
Do you know, we have a family birthday thing once a year and we have, all of us have ourbirthdays quite close together and we go away for a weekend and, and each person organises
(02:48):
a surprise.
And last year they organised a karaoke.
11 o'clock on a Sunday morning, which was really weird.
And such fun, such fun.
So it would be uh School Bag in Hand by ABBA from the musical Mamma Mia.
(03:10):
Okay, I don't know that one, I'll have to check it out.
I like the idea of doing it at 11 in the morning.
It's a bit like having a bath in the daytime, it feels really exotic.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, recommend.
uh So I would have asked you, you just said you couldn't sing, which got you out of thatone.
But I could have said, introduce yourself to the tune of your favourite musical.
(03:34):
Wow, no, mean, I can't sing.
It doesn't stop me.
My husband does say I sing like Kermit being kicked down a slide, which I think is thebest metaphor ever.
Kermit, the frog, the muppet, which gives you a sense of my level of ability.
But yeah, don't let it stop me.
(03:54):
Introducing myself, so my name's Paul.
I am a fan of yours.
I'm a
coach, mentor, OD strategist, I've started calling myself rather than a practitionerbecause it's kind of shifted a little bit.
I'm an author, podcaster.
Like I just love adding hyphens and just going, this, and this, and this.
(04:18):
The only downside is like no one in my family has a clue what I do for a living.
They've never understood, but I quite like it.
I like having the freedom just to add more and more and more.
So tell us a little bit about your journey through those hyphens.
I it started when I left employment.
(04:39):
So those hyphens, I guess I would have always described myself as this is my job.
And so my job was always in organization development for a long time.
And I created a role which didn't exist in the National Health Service.
So I was leading a national uh organization development community because it didn't existand I was looking for one myself and it wasn't there.
(05:05):
And then I was given the opportunity to create one.
And then I spent the next almost 10 years building that community from a bunch ofinterested people who were looking for each other to a place where people could come and
invent stuff and learn and grow.
And, and I was just coming up from my 10th anniversary and I thought, I have to leavebecause I've peaked.
(05:25):
This is it.
It's not going to get any better than this.
I'll never get another job this good.
And so I left and started my own business.
And through that.
was more deliberate about coaching in a way that I'd been doing it as part of my work, butI wanted to do it as an actual offer.
And then through that came more mentoring around OD practice.
(05:47):
And then I started to discover a bit more freedom of not being employed.
And so there, that came an opportunity to write a book and have a podcast.
So all of those things, I feel like they've, they've sparked from a place of possibility,a place of freedom.
but built on, I mean, essentially like a 20 year career of doing that, but inorganizations.
(06:13):
And actually I know one of your previous guests, I was just listening to Jackie Lawler'sepisode and Jackie and I knew each other from our NHS days.
So it was really lovely to hear her story as well, because Jackie's amazing.
That's fantastic.
So this journey of hyphens.
(06:36):
And then the book.
It sounds as though you've done a whole load of things, mini experiments, and most of themhave succeeded.
And then you've done another one and that's succeeded.
Yes.
Yes, I'm not good with failure.
So I like doing stuff that succeeds.
(06:57):
But I do, go through, like I know that you've talked about it in the podcast.
I don't think I have ADHD.
I know a lot of people who do.
And I think everyone has some kind of neurodiversity to some degree.
So I'm probably like, like maybe at the very, very blurred boundary of it.
But I do get a bit hyper-focused on stuff.
(07:20):
So I went through my marathon running phase and did like seven marathons in two years.
And then it was like, I'm going to do a doctorate now and did that for a few years.
So I tend to find something, do it, and then I'm done.
I usually don't repeat stuff.
(07:40):
So a friend of mine, when I was writing my book, sent me a quote about
even remember the quote now, so this is going to be a bad story.
But it was a quote that was like, you just have to write something every day.
I was, because I love stationery, I was sitting there with a bunch of stationery.
So every day I wrote something, I just added a paperclip to a chain of paperclips so thatI could see this thing growing every day.
(08:08):
And I think that's how I see my career and my life, I guess, just adding another paperclipwhen I've
experimented with something, tried something and gone.
Either I enjoyed it or I didn't enjoy it or it worked or it didn't work.
But yeah, it makes me appreciative and grateful that I'm not just stuck in one paperclip.
(08:31):
Because the opposite of my family not knowing what I do for a living is to go, oh,wouldn't it be nice just to say like, I'm an accountant.
And you know, nothing against accountants, but I wouldn't want to just say I'm anaccountant because that's just one paperclip.
So you're a man of many paper clips.
Yes, I'll add that to my LinkedIn profile.
(08:53):
That could be a great title for this episode but nobody's going to listen to it becausethey're not...
well they might be intrigued!
They might be intrigued!
Exactly, and if they are, then they're the kind of people that would probably have theirown string of paper clips.
Listen up if you have a string of paper clips.
Excellent.
So one of your paper clips turned into a book.
(09:17):
Hmm.
And you and I have been in dialogue for a long time and you've been going, I'm writing mybook, I'm writing my book, I'm writing my book.
So tell us about the book.
The book has its own life story already, and actually, as of today, it's not even alive,technically.
(09:41):
The book was due to come out yesterday, and so I was really excited when you said that wewere recording today because I thought, fantastic, it'll be my first post-publication
interview.
And then a week before the book was due to come out, the publisher went intoadministration very unexpectedly, and so the book hasn't come out.
(10:02):
And so I'm kind of sitting with it going, oh, okay.
This thing that I put essentially like three years of energy into is now just sort offrozen in time for a little bit.
And the path that I expected it to be taking has ended.
And I'm at a place where I'm going, okay, what's the next step of the journey for thisbook?
(10:26):
Because I think in the time that we've been talking about it, went from an idea to
something that I worked on a proposal with my agent, Abby, who's amazing, and thenrefining that proposal and then Abby sending it to publishers and rejections and all of
that.
That's a long, long process.
(10:46):
The actual process of writing the book itself was fast.
I wrote it in like two months and that was the easy part.
The rest of the publishing process is the difficult bit.
So yeah, I'm kind of sitting with this book that is almost
in the world and not quite.
So it feels like it's just not ready yet, like its time is not right and it needs to findits own way into the world.
(11:15):
One of the things, so Dan, my husband has ADHD and often he'll go through a process like,you know, if he's, I don't know, trying to decide on buying a new pair of shoes or
something, he'll have 75 different options and narrow them down and narrow them down andnarrow them down.
Get to the one he wants.
And then just as he's about to buy it, he changes his mind and goes back to the 75options.
(11:39):
And so we call it the Dan maneuver.
It's like changing your mind just at the last moment.
And I feel like the book has done a bit of a down maneuver.
We've been on this path and everything was planned and the launch party was planned and abook tour, all those things.
And then it did a down maneuver and said, oh no, I'm not coming out yet.
So I'm excited to see what happens to it.
(12:00):
It's been difficult and unexpected.
And it's helped me learn an awful lot about myself and remember a lot of things aboutmyself, about how despite
having worked in the field of change for 20 odd years, I don't like it.
I don't like it when it happens to me.
(12:20):
And I've had some very strange conversations with myself about how I'm responding tochange.
But ultimately, like I think happens with all change, I've come through this phase of itand gone, oh, I've learned something about myself through this that I didn't know.
And
know, the book is a self-help book for middle-aged LGBTQ people, which is all about how dowe, how do we claim our stories?
(12:46):
How do we rewrite our narratives and how do we live the rest of our lives in a moredeliberate way?
And so part of me thought, well, who am I to write a book like that if I fall apart at onehurdle?
And so this has been a really interesting experience to get to the stage of going, it'shere.
no, it's not.
How do I deal with that?
How do I talk about it?
(13:07):
How do I show the vulnerability that comes with?
Initially, what I saw as a failure on me, even though it was nothing to do with, you know,the publisher went into administration, not my fault, just because it happened a week
before my book, it felt a bit personal.
And so I've had to deal with all those feelings of failure and shame of saying to people,actually, my book's not coming out.
(13:31):
And being with those things and then appreciating them.
acknowledging them and turning them into a place where I can go, actually, this is allpart of this unfolding of what it means to be in midlife, in this place of thinking we
understand ourselves and then going, oh, there's still stuff there.
(13:53):
There's still things to recognise.
So that's a very long history of the book when really I could have just said, it's calledStill Here, Still Queer, Now What?
It will come out at some point.
Please buy it.
So just while we remember, how do people register their interest if they want to buy it itarrives?
(14:16):
so one of the things that Abby said to me when we were developing the proposal and puttingout for submission, and she didn't say it until after we had a book deal, she said, you
know, the thing that I really admire about you is you never said it, but you have thisspirit of we're not taking no for an answer.
And it was really lovely to hear that because I hadn't realized that that's the energy I'dbeen taking into it.
(14:40):
And so yesterday, rather than launching the book, I launched a petition.
which is a demand for a publisher to pick up this book.
And so actually the best thing people could do right now is to sign that petition, is it'sstillherestillqueernowwhat.com / SOS So I'm calling it Save Our Stories because I
(15:00):
interviewed a hundred people for the book and for many of them, they had never told anyonetheir story.
And there was this
urgency.
I put one post on Instagram when I was researching the book and I was flooded with peoplewho wanted to talk.
I remember saying to some of them, like, this feels urgent.
What brought you here?
(15:21):
And so many of them said, well, no one's ever asked us before.
And so I guess the premise of the book is that for people like me in my fifties, I'm partof a generation that has never existed before.
There's been no generation of us who can live legally.
in our midlife with pretty much the same rights in this country as everyone else.
(15:45):
And yet for many of us, we're still struggling with demons of what it was like to grow upin a time when actually for the first seven years of my life, I was illegal and growing up
through section 28 in the UK, surviving the AIDS pandemic, the unequal age of consent.
(16:07):
the fight for equal marriage, and all of these things have happened in my lifetime.
that illegal six-year-old would never have imagined that I could be living in a 25-yearrelationship with my husband, even the fact that he's my husband.
Being as successful in what I do as myself, that would have been unimaginable to thatyoungster.
(16:32):
And yet,
We're still struggling a bit.
One of the people I interviewed, and it's the quote that starts the book, just talks abouthow we're a bit of a lost generation because the people who came before us couldn't be
themselves.
They couldn't live openly.
And just as they were beginning to, AIDS came along.
And so we lost a generation of people who would have been our role models or our elders.
(16:55):
And so we find ourselves in this position of being the emerging elders of our community,but we're
we're making it up as we go along.
We don't know what we're doing either.
So the book was an attempt to try and bring some structure to that and to weave all ofthose stories throughout the book.
So launching the petition was less about, you know, the book needs to be published, butactually these stories can't be silenced.
(17:20):
They've been unheard for so long.
And so, yeah, I'm just encouraging people to sign the petition.
Who knows what will happen with it, but
It's a way of then staying in touch with people to let them know what's happening aboutthe process as well.
So if you want to read the book when it comes out, I'll put the link in the show notes.
You can go straight there and connect.
(17:44):
amazing and thank you because you said when it comes out because for a while I've beengoing if it comes out and I'm starting to then
It's written.
It's typeset.
Yes.
But I don't own the copyright to the typeset.
That's the thing.
This is the whole thing that I'm like, I know too much about the publishing industry now.
I own the rights to the work, but I don't own the rights to the book.
(18:06):
So in finding a new publisher, start almost not from scratch because the book is done, buta publisher will then have to decide what they do with that book.
because the typesetter hasn't been paid.
Because the publisher owns the copyright to the layout, the cover design, the font, all ofthose things.
(18:28):
Who knew?
And this is the thing.
When they say, see how a sausage is made, never see how a book is made, you will neverwant to read another one again.
How fascinating.
There are so many ways to go here, right, Paul?
Can I just say that I talk a lot, we talk a lot about vulnerability and coaching and whata privilege it is to be in your story the day after the wake for your book.
(19:00):
where what you've shared is real, raw, vulnerable and current because you'll be tellingthis story in a year.
because it's important, it's part of your story, but I really appreciate the liveness ofwhat you've been willing to say.
(19:22):
And lovely listeners, we had a little bit of a chat before we started recording and I saidto Paul, anything off limits?
And he went, no, everything's on the table.
So thank you.
think that it's the only way to be.
I don't like it.
Like I hate vulnerability.
I hate the feelings that I've had of, you know, I spend my life talking about change andthen I go to the gym in the morning and someone's using my locker and I absolutely freak
(19:52):
out and it's not even my locker.
I just like that one.
And so I know that we are irrational, emotional.
unpredictable human beings, essentially.
And yet, I tried to behave as if it's rational.
I tried to go, okay, well, I'll just go through this change curve now, when actually itdoesn't work like that.
(20:15):
And so I'm really trying to practice, and this has been a great experiment, this has beena great test of this practice, to not just deal with it as if it's a problem to be solved,
but be with it as
the weirdness of this kind of emotional, it's not even a roller coaster, it's just life.
(20:39):
But I think there's something in the practice of this that for me wouldn't have happenedif this hadn't happened to the book.
I would have just been going on this kind of linear wrote a proposal, got a book deal,wrote a book, published a book.
And it would have, in a way, it would have been quite a traditional story.
So I think this adds a really interesting plot twist, which was
(21:01):
book didn't happen because initially, you know, I talk about the vulnerability side of it.
Initially, my first reaction was, well, I'll just start my own publishing company then.
And had a wild two day, mean, wild at all.
I was wild in my head where I was like, okay, I'll just, I'll have to do it myself.
No other way to it.
(21:21):
And spoke to a friend and was like, would you invest in this company?
And she was like, yeah, absolutely.
Let's do it.
We, you know, we almost had a business plan by the end of Sunday.
then I stopped and went hang on I'm supermanning again I'm trying to rescue this whenactually it's not my job and it's not my gift to rescue this and you know Dan is very good
(21:45):
when he notices me doing that he'll just kind of do that gentle thing of going yeah you'redoing it again and he said you just you need to let Abby drive for a while she's your
agent let her take the wheel she knows what she's doing
And so my initial response to that kind of vulnerability is just to do the, on thesuperhero costume.
I can fix this.
I can do it.
(22:06):
I should probably have done it myself in the first place.
And I'm, learning to just stop and actually take that off and go, Oh no, I'm just going tobe with the sadness for a while.
And I'm going to be with the anger for a while.
And I'm going to be with the disappointment and I'm going to be with the, also the hopethat then comes.
None of that's possible when I'm in Superman mode because I'm just saving the world, butI'm not.
(22:34):
I'm trying to practice that, guess.
It's really nice being here actually the morning after the wake because I don't think Icould have imagined myself saying those words two weeks ago to say, I'm glad this
happened.
I'm lucky it has happened.
And this is a reminder to myself to not resist those things happening.
(23:00):
I'm just thinking about the William Bridges who I love his stuff about transitions.
You're right bang in the middle of what he calls the neutral zone, aren't you?
What I would call the wilderness.
I often talk about it as the dead zone, which is like, we've all got our own metaphors.
I like the wilderness that came up in a coaching session for me, cause I see my coach Joonce a week, we do a bit of peer coaching, which again is an amazing resource and has been
(23:28):
for the last few years.
And that image came up when I was right in the middle of this.
was like sitting in the middle of a forest with all of these different paths ahead and notknowing that any of them are right.
or even how to know which one might be right.
So that image of the wilderness, you know, feels very resonant because I feel like I'vestarted to maybe stand up.
(23:54):
still don't know which path is available, but I feel like I'm not just sitting theredazed, looking around going, you know, like there's kind of choose your own adventure
books.
Like you see a clearing, which path do you take?
Yeah.
Are you okay if I share something about the wilderness?
Absolutely.
(24:14):
So I walked across the wilderness in 2002.
What do you mean by wilderness?
Because to me, I'm not a very big fan of nature.
So when you say wilderness, in my head, I'm picturing desert.
So in the Old Testament, the Jewish Christian book, there's a story of people crossing thewilderness.
(24:39):
And that's what it describes it at.
And it's somewhere in Egypt, Egypt-Israel border.
And we started from Mount Sinai, which is a place in the Bible, and we walked for fivedays.
And that is...
traditionally, there are many things that are wildernesses, which is stark, big, whatever.
(25:04):
But I learnt so many things walking across that.
One was it was absolutely terrifying.
And when somebody collapsed, one of the, there were the same number of support team asthere were walkers.
one-to-one just in case.
we're all in Marvelous.
Somebody collapses.
(25:24):
One of the guys opens his rucksack.
He's got five IV drips in his rucksack.
You think, OK, this is a little bit more serious than we thought.
You didn't tell us there was an IV involved.
No!
And then somebody went, well if she's really ill somebody will come in by helicopter.
No they won't.
If we have to get her out on a camel and then a truck.
(25:49):
So it turned out his IV worked.
But the thing I learned about being in the wilderness, and we slept at night under thestars, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been, and it's the most terrifying place
I've ever been.
And...
(26:09):
both exact about the same of both.
and there was a sun storm.
uh which was like being in a sandblaster and of course nobody was expecting it to come andthen the guide shouted, cover your faces, cover your faces.
(26:31):
It pretty much shaved our legs this sandstorm
nature's exfoliator.
Yes, it was like being in an exfoliating machine and you couldn't see while the sandstormwas coming because you had to cover up.
And when the sandstorm arrived, you know, the desert was barren.
(26:53):
It was probably two minutes when we took our head coverings off to, you know, to see whatwas happening.
There were green plants everywhere and they were huge.
Like one of them was like a metre wide.
I want to go, well, how did that happen?
And I just want to offer you that that was my experience of the wilderness, that there wasnothing and then boom, and it was all the feelings, the good, the bad, the ugly.
(27:20):
What was going on for you in those two minutes of being isolated from vision and theworld?
Well, we weren't expecting it.
That sounds familiar.
And in that moment, you've just got to do what you're told.
you don't know how long it's going to be for, but you just do what you're told.
(27:46):
Of course, we couldn't hear because it was loud.
It was really loud.
Really?
I would imagine a sandstorm to be quiet.
Yeah, but remember it was silent before the sandstorm came.
Like silent.
What was changed in you as a result of that experience?
(28:16):
think it was a really good learn that some things take a long time to change and somethings can change instantly.
And I think the thing that still surprises me and I've got some photographs of what wasafter.
But of course you haven't taken a photograph of, here is the spot where in one minute'stime there is going to be an enormous plant.
(28:41):
So you can't, so you don't know what the before looked like because you weren't payingthat level of attention.
But you know what the after was because the after is these, these plants just appear fromnowhere.
And I think that was a real, yeah, it was a real.
lesson that things can change quickly either way.
(29:03):
You know, it was all fine and then it wasn't.
And then, and then suddenly you get all these bonus features.
There's something and I love that story.
I mean, it sounds horrendous and I'm glad you survived it, but I love the story.
love the imagery of it.
And it reminds me of, of something of your work that I, I quote a lot where you say, if Iknow where the conversation's going, I'm not coaching.
(29:33):
And, and I think of that a lot, not just in my coaching, but in life.
And if someone had said to me, you're going to write a book and then a week
it comes out the publisher is going to go bust.
I would have probably said, oh no, I'm not going to put myself through that.
If you know what's coming, it just spoils everything.
(29:55):
And yet I know that I, I was going to say people, actually I, like certainty, I'm not goodin ambiguity.
I'm not good with not knowing.
And that's a constant practice.
But actually I don't want to know.
It's like if someone said, would you want to know the date of your death?
(30:17):
No, thank you.
I'd rather just be in the storm and just see how long it lasts and come out of it theother side.
So I love that story.
feels, yeah, I think I'm still in the sandstorm, but I'm actually okay in it.
(30:38):
What gift you are to the world, Paul, because you have been so out that the book wascoming.
That so often, I think, we experience a disappointment and we can keep it a secret.
Hmm.
So all of us experience disappointments.
I know yours is a big, one, but often when we experience a disappointment, a few peopleknow.
(31:05):
But you're having to manage this in the public domain.
choice.
And that also came from the experience.
The publishing journey itself is a bit of a wilderness, or it has been, because so much ofit is secret.
(31:25):
And so, you know, writing a proposal, it's like, it's a very intimate, you know, justbetween me and my agent, we're kind of hunkering down.
And then it goes off to publishers, but you can't talk about it.
And you can't tell which publisher is looking at it and who doesn't.
And I remember Abby saying at the beginning, cause I said, you know, should I tell peopleabout this?
And she was like, it's totally up to you, but just be careful that people will startasking you, how's the book going?
(31:47):
What's happening?
And she's like, you know, this is a long process.
And so I, I told a few people that it was happening, but I, I waited until the deal wassigned and there was a press release, which is probably about 18 months of a journey.
before I then went public about it because I didn't want to keep saying, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know what's happening.
(32:12):
I think that what I noticed in that time was I wasn't doing well with keeping it a secret.
And the word that you used there was so unbelievably right when you said you've beenreally out about this.
Because what I realized through the process of keeping it secret was it was like beingback in the closet.
(32:35):
It was like there's something that I'm doing or something, know, something that's reallyimportant, something that's like a part of me that I am hiding from the world.
And, you I came out when I was 15.
So I've spent 37 years almost being myself and the, the jobs I've done, the work I'vedone, you know, the, the presence that I tried to have in the world is about being myself,
(33:01):
being in the world as myself.
And suddenly there was this big thing, this big important thing that I couldn't talkabout.
And so it felt like going back in the closet.
And so when the press release came out and I was able to talk about it, I was like, I'vecome out again.
And so when this happened and there was this bad news, I thought I'm not going back in thecloset again.
(33:22):
I'm not doing it.
Actually, I need to be with this and be visible with it.
And
And the response I've had from people has been, I mean, to me, really surprising.
Cause I think I'm just dealing with it as I would.
I've had some really lovely messages from people saying, you've dealt with this with a lotof dignity and a lot of integrity.
(33:45):
And, and I'm really grateful for that because I don't, I can't think of any other way thatI would do it.
I've had my private moments of, you know, murderous thoughts, but you know, there's,there's something about
that my refusal to go back in the closet again, it's just not going to happen.
And so, you know, what comes with that is having to show some of that vulnerability andthat disappointment.
(34:11):
But what comes back in return is like 10 million times the joy compared to that slight bitof pain and discomfort, because it's what people respond to and react to and
If I was saying, this has happened and it's all fine.
It's like, no one would believe that anyway.
(34:31):
that's, you know, one of the qualities that came through from the people I interviewed isit's authenticity or nothing at this stage of our lives.
We are tired of pretending we are not going to go and be someone we're not.
And so what came with that for me was just being in that uncomfortable space of going,yeah, this has happened.
(34:57):
Thank you for coming in your not knowing space.
I mean, I hate it.
This is the thing.
uh I love it and I hate it.
It's always going to be both.
It's always the beautiful and the dangerous.
It's the bit of going, oh yeah, I talk about beginner's mind all the time.
It's like, yeah, but not me.
It's fine for other people.
(35:17):
And yet when it happens, I realize this is why I talk about it because it's important.
Wow.
So what would you want to say to listeners who are a little bit averse to not knowing?
you're my people.
I am you.
(35:38):
I don't like not knowing.
I don't like uncertainty.
don't like ambiguity.
And yet, how boring would it be to be certain about everything?
Look at the world we're living in at the moment with so many people who sound so certainabout things that are so complex and unknowable.
It's theatre.
(36:00):
It's fiction.
And
I'd much rather be in that place of not knowing and be open about not knowing than pretendthat there is some solution to this wildness of life.
So yeah, they're my people.
I feel it.
not, I wouldn't persuade anyone to change.
(36:21):
wouldn't try and, I wouldn't dream of saying, don't be like that.
Because if someone said to me, don't be like that, I'd be like, whatever.
I'm quite okay being like that.
That's such a beautiful message that says, you know, it's hard for all of us and we are init.
(36:41):
And for coaches, you know, we are in it every day.
Or not.
Yeah.
I think the times when I'm at my worst as a coach is when I go, no, what's going on here?
And I have to go, Oh, stop it.
That may or may not be true, but it doesn't matter.
It's that spot, it, between being not being out of control, but also not being in control.
(37:06):
And I think that's where the work happens.
I could talk to you all day.
I've got so many things I want to ask you.
And our lovely listeners need to move on.
And you what I love as much as knowing an ending is also a bit of a cliffhanger.
So I quite like leaving unfinished.
(37:26):
I quite like going, yeah, we could just keep talking and knowing that that potential isstill there and that we will keep talking maybe in different places, but that that to be
continued, which I guess is the theme for me at the moment.
Nice.
So what's your podcast Paul?
So my podcast is called Still Here, Still Queer, Now What?
(37:49):
after the book.
And it's a combination of me rambling about the world and then interviews with peopleeither who feature in the book or who I didn't have time to interview in the book.
So I've got some amazing interviews with all kinds of fantastic people.
I also have a couple of other podcasts, which are now like archive podcasts, but I stillgo back and listen to them.
(38:10):
Actually, the first one that I did in lockdown was called Hopecast.
which was a podcast on spirituality and sexuality with a very diverse group of people.
Someone who was raised Christian, someone who was raised Muslim, someone who was raisedBuddhist, a drag queen, and me in the middle of it all going, I don't make sense of any of
(38:34):
this.
And so we did Hopecast, we did about 80 episodes over that time.
And there were six of us all around the world.
Four of us got together last night at the launch at the wake.
which was lovely.
So we were thinking we might do a reunion of Hopecast because we felt like actually maybeit's about time for a bit more hope.
And I did another podcast just as a bit of a side project once when I was a bit quiet,which was called Exploring the Heart of Change.
(39:01):
And that was about having conversations with people who'd either made a change happen or achange had happened to them to see if they could find some art at the heart of it.
So that was just a short series, I think of about eight episodes.
So yeah, I like podcasting and I love being a podcast guest.
very honored to be part of your story as well.
(39:22):
Well, thank you for coming.
lots of podcast places to find Paul.
I'll put his website in the show notes.
If you want to find out about the book, sign the petition and we'll change the show noteswhen the book comes out.
you.
Thank you for having me and thank you for just your brilliant, inspiring self.
(39:45):
Your work has made such a difference to my work and I will always be grateful for that.
So thank you.
Well, thank you and thank you for, yeah, for bringing to the world a story that needs tobe told, which is coming soon somewhere, probably.
(40:06):
Thank you, everyone, definitely.
Thank you, everyone, for listening.
Thank you, Paul, for coming to The Coaching Inn.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye-bye.
Hello.
Mostly when we hear stories of people's ups and downs and not knowing and tricky things,they're telling them in the past tense.
So it's an absolute delight and privilege to introduce you to today's episode, wheresomebody is talking about not knowing and vulnerability and is absolutely right bang stuck
in the middle of it.
(00:21):
I've been talking to Paul Taylor Pitt for a long time about his upcoming book,
Still Here Still Queer Now What?
And this episode has been lined up for this week because it's launch week, Except itisn't, because the publisher has gone into administration.
(00:42):
So listen up to find out about Paul's book, find out about his magic string of paperclips, and listen to the story of somebody who is right there in the not knowing zone.
and so much to learn and I didn't ask him any of the questions that I had lined up becausewhat we talked about seemed more important in the moment so I'd love to hear what you
(01:09):
think send us an email info@3dcoaching.com and if you like like this episode do share itand subscribe or follow where you download your podcasts.
Over to you.
(01:36):
Welcome to The Coaching Inn.
I am your host, Claire Pedrick, and today I'm in conversation with a coach, OD consultant,author, lovely person, uh Paul Taylor-Pitt.
Welcome to The Coaching Inn, Paul.
Thank you for having me.
On karaoke night in The Coaching Inn.
(01:56):
Well, that was a surprise.
Watch out listeners, here it comes.
So in the music of your choice, you better be careful because I've been to seeShowstoppers the musical.
Wow, okay.
And would you have like a go-to track if someone like, don't, I can't sing, but if yousuddenly found yourself in a karaoke night and someone said, okay, Claire, you're up next.
(02:24):
Would you be like, hit it?
Well, it would have to be something I could remember the words.
But the words are there, that's karaoke.
That's true.
it would be eighties.
Do you know, we have a family birthday thing once a year and we have, all of us have ourbirthdays quite close together and we go away for a weekend and, and each person organises
(02:48):
a surprise.
And last year they organised a karaoke.
11 o'clock on a Sunday morning, which was really weird.
And such fun, such fun.
So it would be uh School Bag in Hand by ABBA from the musical Mamma Mia.
(03:10):
Okay, I don't know that one, I'll have to check it out.
I like the idea of doing it at 11 in the morning.
It's a bit like having a bath in the daytime, it feels really exotic.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So yeah, recommend.
uh So I would have asked you, you just said you couldn't sing, which got you out of thatone.
But I could have said, introduce yourself to the tune of your favourite musical.
(03:34):
Wow, no, mean, I can't sing.
It doesn't stop me.
My husband does say I sing like Kermit being kicked down a slide, which I think is thebest metaphor ever.
Kermit, the frog, the muppet, which gives you a sense of my level of ability.
But yeah, don't let it stop me.
(03:54):
Introducing myself, so my name's Paul.
I am a fan of yours.
I'm a
coach, mentor, OD strategist, I've started calling myself rather than a practitionerbecause it's kind of shifted a little bit.
I'm an author, podcaster.
Like I just love adding hyphens and just going, this, and this, and this.
(04:18):
The only downside is like no one in my family has a clue what I do for a living.
They've never understood, but I quite like it.
I like having the freedom just to add more and more and more.
So tell us a little bit about your journey through those hyphens.
I it started when I left employment.
(04:39):
So those hyphens, I guess I would have always described myself as this is my job.
And so my job was always in organization development for a long time.
And I created a role which didn't exist in the National Health Service.
So I was leading a national uh organization development community because it didn't existand I was looking for one myself and it wasn't there.
(05:05):
And then I was given the opportunity to create one.
And then I spent the next almost 10 years building that community from a bunch ofinterested people who were looking for each other to a place where people could come and
invent stuff and learn and grow.
And, and I was just coming up from my 10th anniversary and I thought, I have to leavebecause I've peaked.
(05:25):
This is it.
It's not going to get any better than this.
I'll never get another job this good.
And so I left and started my own business.
And through that.
was more deliberate about coaching in a way that I'd been doing it as part of my work, butI wanted to do it as an actual offer.
And then through that came more mentoring around OD practice.
(05:47):
And then I started to discover a bit more freedom of not being employed.
And so there, that came an opportunity to write a book and have a podcast.
So all of those things, I feel like they've, they've sparked from a place of possibility,a place of freedom.
but built on, I mean, essentially like a 20 year career of doing that, but inorganizations.
(06:13):
And actually I know one of your previous guests, I was just listening to Jackie Lawler'sepisode and Jackie and I knew each other from our NHS days.
So it was really lovely to hear her story as well, because Jackie's amazing.
That's fantastic.
So this journey of hyphens.
(06:36):
And then the book.
It sounds as though you've done a whole load of things, mini experiments, and most of themhave succeeded.
And then you've done another one and that's succeeded.
Yes.
Yes, I'm not good with failure.
So I like doing stuff that succeeds.
(06:57):
But I do, go through, like I know that you've talked about it in the podcast.
I don't think I have ADHD.
I know a lot of people who do.
And I think everyone has some kind of neurodiversity to some degree.
So I'm probably like, like maybe at the very, very blurred boundary of it.
But I do get a bit hyper-focused on stuff.
(07:20):
So I went through my marathon running phase and did like seven marathons in two years.
And then it was like, I'm going to do a doctorate now and did that for a few years.
So I tend to find something, do it, and then I'm done.
I usually don't repeat stuff.
(07:40):
So a friend of mine, when I was writing my book, sent me a quote about
even remember the quote now, so this is going to be a bad story.
But it was a quote that was like, you just have to write something every day.
I was, because I love stationery, I was sitting there with a bunch of stationery.
So every day I wrote something, I just added a paperclip to a chain of paperclips so thatI could see this thing growing every day.
(08:08):
And I think that's how I see my career and my life, I guess, just adding another paperclipwhen I've
experimented with something, tried something and gone.
Either I enjoyed it or I didn't enjoy it or it worked or it didn't work.
But yeah, it makes me appreciative and grateful that I'm not just stuck in one paperclip.
(08:31):
Because the opposite of my family not knowing what I do for a living is to go, oh,wouldn't it be nice just to say like, I'm an accountant.
And you know, nothing against accountants, but I wouldn't want to just say I'm anaccountant because that's just one paperclip.
So you're a man of many paper clips.
Yes, I'll add that to my LinkedIn profile.
(08:53):
That could be a great title for this episode but nobody's going to listen to it becausethey're not...
well they might be intrigued!
They might be intrigued!
Exactly, and if they are, then they're the kind of people that would probably have theirown string of paper clips.
Listen up if you have a string of paper clips.
Excellent.
So one of your paper clips turned into a book.
(09:17):
Hmm.
And you and I have been in dialogue for a long time and you've been going, I'm writing mybook, I'm writing my book, I'm writing my book.
So tell us about the book.
The book has its own life story already, and actually, as of today, it's not even alive,technically.
(09:41):
The book was due to come out yesterday, and so I was really excited when you said that wewere recording today because I thought, fantastic, it'll be my first post-publication
interview.
And then a week before the book was due to come out, the publisher went intoadministration very unexpectedly, and so the book hasn't come out.
(10:02):
And so I'm kind of sitting with it going, oh, okay.
This thing that I put essentially like three years of energy into is now just sort offrozen in time for a little bit.
And the path that I expected it to be taking has ended.
And I'm at a place where I'm going, okay, what's the next step of the journey for thisbook?
(10:26):
Because I think in the time that we've been talking about it, went from an idea to
something that I worked on a proposal with my agent, Abby, who's amazing, and thenrefining that proposal and then Abby sending it to publishers and rejections and all of
that.
That's a long, long process.
(10:46):
The actual process of writing the book itself was fast.
I wrote it in like two months and that was the easy part.
The rest of the publishing process is the difficult bit.
So yeah, I'm kind of sitting with this book that is almost
in the world and not quite.
So it feels like it's just not ready yet, like its time is not right and it needs to findits own way into the world.
(11:15):
One of the things, so Dan, my husband has ADHD and often he'll go through a process like,you know, if he's, I don't know, trying to decide on buying a new pair of shoes or
something, he'll have 75 different options and narrow them down and narrow them down andnarrow them down.
Get to the one he wants.
And then just as he's about to buy it, he changes his mind and goes back to the 75options.
(11:39):
And so we call it the Dan maneuver.
It's like changing your mind just at the last moment.
And I feel like the book has done a bit of a down maneuver.
We've been on this path and everything was planned and the launch party was planned and abook tour, all those things.
And then it did a down maneuver and said, oh no, I'm not coming out yet.
So I'm excited to see what happens to it.
(12:00):
It's been difficult and unexpected.
And it's helped me learn an awful lot about myself and remember a lot of things aboutmyself, about how despite
having worked in the field of change for 20 odd years, I don't like it.
I don't like it when it happens to me.
(12:20):
And I've had some very strange conversations with myself about how I'm responding tochange.
But ultimately, like I think happens with all change, I've come through this phase of itand gone, oh, I've learned something about myself through this that I didn't know.
And
know, the book is a self-help book for middle-aged LGBTQ people, which is all about how dowe, how do we claim our stories?
(12:46):
How do we rewrite our narratives and how do we live the rest of our lives in a moredeliberate way?
And so part of me thought, well, who am I to write a book like that if I fall apart at onehurdle?
And so this has been a really interesting experience to get to the stage of going, it'shere.
no, it's not.
How do I deal with that?
How do I talk about it?
(13:07):
How do I show the vulnerability that comes with?
Initially, what I saw as a failure on me, even though it was nothing to do with, you know,the publisher went into administration, not my fault, just because it happened a week
before my book, it felt a bit personal.
And so I've had to deal with all those feelings of failure and shame of saying to people,actually, my book's not coming out.
(13:31):
And being with those things and then appreciating them.
acknowledging them and turning them into a place where I can go, actually, this is allpart of this unfolding of what it means to be in midlife, in this place of thinking we
understand ourselves and then going, oh, there's still stuff there.
(13:53):
There's still things to recognise.
So that's a very long history of the book when really I could have just said, it's calledStill Here, Still Queer, Now What?
It will come out at some point.
Please buy it.
So just while we remember, how do people register their interest if they want to buy it itarrives?
(14:16):
so one of the things that Abby said to me when we were developing the proposal and puttingout for submission, and she didn't say it until after we had a book deal, she said, you
know, the thing that I really admire about you is you never said it, but you have thisspirit of we're not taking no for an answer.
And it was really lovely to hear that because I hadn't realized that that's the energy I'dbeen taking into it.
(14:40):
And so yesterday, rather than launching the book, I launched a petition.
which is a demand for a publisher to pick up this book.
And so actually the best thing people could do right now is to sign that petition, is it'sstillherestillqueernowwhat.com / SOS So I'm calling it Save Our Stories because I
(15:00):
interviewed a hundred people for the book and for many of them, they had never told anyonetheir story.
And there was this
urgency.
I put one post on Instagram when I was researching the book and I was flooded with peoplewho wanted to talk.
I remember saying to some of them, like, this feels urgent.
What brought you here?
(15:21):
And so many of them said, well, no one's ever asked us before.
And so I guess the premise of the book is that for people like me in my fifties, I'm partof a generation that has never existed before.
There's been no generation of us who can live legally.
in our midlife with pretty much the same rights in this country as everyone else.
(15:45):
And yet for many of us, we're still struggling with demons of what it was like to grow upin a time when actually for the first seven years of my life, I was illegal and growing up
through section 28 in the UK, surviving the AIDS pandemic, the unequal age of consent.
(16:07):
the fight for equal marriage, and all of these things have happened in my lifetime.
that illegal six-year-old would never have imagined that I could be living in a 25-yearrelationship with my husband, even the fact that he's my husband.
Being as successful in what I do as myself, that would have been unimaginable to thatyoungster.
(16:32):
And yet,
We're still struggling a bit.
One of the people I interviewed, and it's the quote that starts the book, just talks abouthow we're a bit of a lost generation because the people who came before us couldn't be
themselves.
They couldn't live openly.
And just as they were beginning to, AIDS came along.
And so we lost a generation of people who would have been our role models or our elders.
(16:55):
And so we find ourselves in this position of being the emerging elders of our community,but we're
we're making it up as we go along.
We don't know what we're doing either.
So the book was an attempt to try and bring some structure to that and to weave all ofthose stories throughout the book.
So launching the petition was less about, you know, the book needs to be published, butactually these stories can't be silenced.
(17:20):
They've been unheard for so long.
And so, yeah, I'm just encouraging people to sign the petition.
Who knows what will happen with it, but
It's a way of then staying in touch with people to let them know what's happening aboutthe process as well.
So if you want to read the book when it comes out, I'll put the link in the show notes.
You can go straight there and connect.
(17:44):
amazing and thank you because you said when it comes out because for a while I've beengoing if it comes out and I'm starting to then
It's written.
It's typeset.
Yes.
But I don't own the copyright to the typeset.
That's the thing.
This is the whole thing that I'm like, I know too much about the publishing industry now.
I own the rights to the work, but I don't own the rights to the book.
(18:06):
So in finding a new publisher, start almost not from scratch because the book is done, buta publisher will then have to decide what they do with that book.
because the typesetter hasn't been paid.
Because the publisher owns the copyright to the layout, the cover design, the font, all ofthose things.
(18:28):
Who knew?
And this is the thing.
When they say, see how a sausage is made, never see how a book is made, you will neverwant to read another one again.
How fascinating.
There are so many ways to go here, right, Paul?
Can I just say that I talk a lot, we talk a lot about vulnerability and coaching and whata privilege it is to be in your story the day after the wake for your book.
(19:00):
where what you've shared is real, raw, vulnerable and current because you'll be tellingthis story in a year.
because it's important, it's part of your story, but I really appreciate the liveness ofwhat you've been willing to say.
(19:22):
And lovely listeners, we had a little bit of a chat before we started recording and I saidto Paul, anything off limits?
And he went, no, everything's on the table.
So thank you.
think that it's the only way to be.
I don't like it.
Like I hate vulnerability.
I hate the feelings that I've had of, you know, I spend my life talking about change andthen I go to the gym in the morning and someone's using my locker and I absolutely freak
(19:52):
out and it's not even my locker.
I just like that one.
And so I know that we are irrational, emotional.
unpredictable human beings, essentially.
And yet, I tried to behave as if it's rational.
I tried to go, okay, well, I'll just go through this change curve now, when actually itdoesn't work like that.
(20:15):
And so I'm really trying to practice, and this has been a great experiment, this has beena great test of this practice, to not just deal with it as if it's a problem to be solved,
but be with it as
the weirdness of this kind of emotional, it's not even a roller coaster, it's just life.
(20:39):
But I think there's something in the practice of this that for me wouldn't have happenedif this hadn't happened to the book.
I would have just been going on this kind of linear wrote a proposal, got a book deal,wrote a book, published a book.
And it would have, in a way, it would have been quite a traditional story.
So I think this adds a really interesting plot twist, which was
(21:01):
book didn't happen because initially, you know, I talk about the vulnerability side of it.
Initially, my first reaction was, well, I'll just start my own publishing company then.
And had a wild two day, mean, wild at all.
I was wild in my head where I was like, okay, I'll just, I'll have to do it myself.
No other way to it.
(21:21):
And spoke to a friend and was like, would you invest in this company?
And she was like, yeah, absolutely.
Let's do it.
We, you know, we almost had a business plan by the end of Sunday.
then I stopped and went hang on I'm supermanning again I'm trying to rescue this whenactually it's not my job and it's not my gift to rescue this and you know Dan is very good
(21:45):
when he notices me doing that he'll just kind of do that gentle thing of going yeah you'redoing it again and he said you just you need to let Abby drive for a while she's your
agent let her take the wheel she knows what she's doing
And so my initial response to that kind of vulnerability is just to do the, on thesuperhero costume.
I can fix this.
I can do it.
(22:06):
I should probably have done it myself in the first place.
And I'm, learning to just stop and actually take that off and go, Oh no, I'm just going tobe with the sadness for a while.
And I'm going to be with the anger for a while.
And I'm going to be with the disappointment and I'm going to be with the, also the hopethat then comes.
None of that's possible when I'm in Superman mode because I'm just saving the world, butI'm not.
(22:34):
I'm trying to practice that, guess.
It's really nice being here actually the morning after the wake because I don't think Icould have imagined myself saying those words two weeks ago to say, I'm glad this
happened.
I'm lucky it has happened.
And this is a reminder to myself to not resist those things happening.
(23:00):
I'm just thinking about the William Bridges who I love his stuff about transitions.
You're right bang in the middle of what he calls the neutral zone, aren't you?
What I would call the wilderness.
I often talk about it as the dead zone, which is like, we've all got our own metaphors.
I like the wilderness that came up in a coaching session for me, cause I see my coach Joonce a week, we do a bit of peer coaching, which again is an amazing resource and has been
(23:28):
for the last few years.
And that image came up when I was right in the middle of this.
was like sitting in the middle of a forest with all of these different paths ahead and notknowing that any of them are right.
or even how to know which one might be right.
So that image of the wilderness, you know, feels very resonant because I feel like I'vestarted to maybe stand up.
(23:54):
still don't know which path is available, but I feel like I'm not just sitting theredazed, looking around going, you know, like there's kind of choose your own adventure
books.
Like you see a clearing, which path do you take?
Yeah.
Are you okay if I share something about the wilderness?
Absolutely.
(24:14):
So I walked across the wilderness in 2002.
What do you mean by wilderness?
Because to me, I'm not a very big fan of nature.
So when you say wilderness, in my head, I'm picturing desert.
So in the Old Testament, the Jewish Christian book, there's a story of people crossing thewilderness.
(24:39):
And that's what it describes it at.
And it's somewhere in Egypt, Egypt-Israel border.
And we started from Mount Sinai, which is a place in the Bible, and we walked for fivedays.
And that is...
traditionally, there are many things that are wildernesses, which is stark, big, whatever.
(25:04):
But I learnt so many things walking across that.
One was it was absolutely terrifying.
And when somebody collapsed, one of the, there were the same number of support team asthere were walkers.
one-to-one just in case.
we're all in Marvelous.
Somebody collapses.
(25:24):
One of the guys opens his rucksack.
He's got five IV drips in his rucksack.
You think, OK, this is a little bit more serious than we thought.
You didn't tell us there was an IV involved.
No!
And then somebody went, well if she's really ill somebody will come in by helicopter.
No they won't.
If we have to get her out on a camel and then a truck.
(25:49):
So it turned out his IV worked.
But the thing I learned about being in the wilderness, and we slept at night under thestars, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been, and it's the most terrifying place
I've ever been.
And...
(26:09):
both exact about the same of both.
and there was a sun storm.
uh which was like being in a sandblaster and of course nobody was expecting it to come andthen the guide shouted, cover your faces, cover your faces.
(26:31):
It pretty much shaved our legs this sandstorm
nature's exfoliator.
Yes, it was like being in an exfoliating machine and you couldn't see while the sandstormwas coming because you had to cover up.
And when the sandstorm arrived, you know, the desert was barren.
(26:53):
It was probably two minutes when we took our head coverings off to, you know, to see whatwas happening.
There were green plants everywhere and they were huge.
Like one of them was like a metre wide.
I want to go, well, how did that happen?
And I just want to offer you that that was my experience of the wilderness, that there wasnothing and then boom, and it was all the feelings, the good, the bad, the ugly.
(27:20):
What was going on for you in those two minutes of being isolated from vision and theworld?
Well, we weren't expecting it.
That sounds familiar.
And in that moment, you've just got to do what you're told.
you don't know how long it's going to be for, but you just do what you're told.
(27:46):
Of course, we couldn't hear because it was loud.
It was really loud.
Really?
I would imagine a sandstorm to be quiet.
Yeah, but remember it was silent before the sandstorm came.
Like silent.
What was changed in you as a result of that experience?
(28:16):
think it was a really good learn that some things take a long time to change and somethings can change instantly.
And I think the thing that still surprises me and I've got some photographs of what wasafter.
But of course you haven't taken a photograph of, here is the spot where in one minute'stime there is going to be an enormous plant.
(28:41):
So you can't, so you don't know what the before looked like because you weren't payingthat level of attention.
But you know what the after was because the after is these, these plants just appear fromnowhere.
And I think that was a real, yeah, it was a real.
lesson that things can change quickly either way.
(29:03):
You know, it was all fine and then it wasn't.
And then, and then suddenly you get all these bonus features.
There's something and I love that story.
I mean, it sounds horrendous and I'm glad you survived it, but I love the story.
love the imagery of it.
And it reminds me of, of something of your work that I, I quote a lot where you say, if Iknow where the conversation's going, I'm not coaching.
(29:33):
And, and I think of that a lot, not just in my coaching, but in life.
And if someone had said to me, you're going to write a book and then a week
it comes out the publisher is going to go bust.
I would have probably said, oh no, I'm not going to put myself through that.
If you know what's coming, it just spoils everything.
(29:55):
And yet I know that I, I was going to say people, actually I, like certainty, I'm not goodin ambiguity.
I'm not good with not knowing.
And that's a constant practice.
But actually I don't want to know.
It's like if someone said, would you want to know the date of your death?
(30:17):
No, thank you.
I'd rather just be in the storm and just see how long it lasts and come out of it theother side.
So I love that story.
feels, yeah, I think I'm still in the sandstorm, but I'm actually okay in it.
(30:38):
What gift you are to the world, Paul, because you have been so out that the book wascoming.
That so often, I think, we experience a disappointment and we can keep it a secret.
Hmm.
So all of us experience disappointments.
I know yours is a big, one, but often when we experience a disappointment, a few peopleknow.
(31:05):
But you're having to manage this in the public domain.
choice.
And that also came from the experience.
The publishing journey itself is a bit of a wilderness, or it has been, because so much ofit is secret.
(31:25):
And so, you know, writing a proposal, it's like, it's a very intimate, you know, justbetween me and my agent, we're kind of hunkering down.
And then it goes off to publishers, but you can't talk about it.
And you can't tell which publisher is looking at it and who doesn't.
And I remember Abby saying at the beginning, cause I said, you know, should I tell peopleabout this?
And she was like, it's totally up to you, but just be careful that people will startasking you, how's the book going?
(31:47):
What's happening?
And she's like, you know, this is a long process.
And so I, I told a few people that it was happening, but I, I waited until the deal wassigned and there was a press release, which is probably about 18 months of a journey.
before I then went public about it because I didn't want to keep saying, I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know what's happening.
(32:12):
I think that what I noticed in that time was I wasn't doing well with keeping it a secret.
And the word that you used there was so unbelievably right when you said you've beenreally out about this.
Because what I realized through the process of keeping it secret was it was like beingback in the closet.
(32:35):
It was like there's something that I'm doing or something, know, something that's reallyimportant, something that's like a part of me that I am hiding from the world.
And, you I came out when I was 15.
So I've spent 37 years almost being myself and the, the jobs I've done, the work I'vedone, you know, the, the presence that I tried to have in the world is about being myself,
(33:01):
being in the world as myself.
And suddenly there was this big thing, this big important thing that I couldn't talkabout.
And so it felt like going back in the closet.
And so when the press release came out and I was able to talk about it, I was like, I'vecome out again.
And so when this happened and there was this bad news, I thought I'm not going back in thecloset again.
(33:22):
I'm not doing it.
Actually, I need to be with this and be visible with it.
And
And the response I've had from people has been, I mean, to me, really surprising.
Cause I think I'm just dealing with it as I would.
I've had some really lovely messages from people saying, you've dealt with this with a lotof dignity and a lot of integrity.
(33:45):
And, and I'm really grateful for that because I don't, I can't think of any other way thatI would do it.
I've had my private moments of, you know, murderous thoughts, but you know, there's,there's something about
that my refusal to go back in the closet again, it's just not going to happen.
And so, you know, what comes with that is having to show some of that vulnerability andthat disappointment.
(34:11):
But what comes back in return is like 10 million times the joy compared to that slight bitof pain and discomfort, because it's what people respond to and react to and
If I was saying, this has happened and it's all fine.
It's like, no one would believe that anyway.
(34:31):
that's, you know, one of the qualities that came through from the people I interviewed isit's authenticity or nothing at this stage of our lives.
We are tired of pretending we are not going to go and be someone we're not.
And so what came with that for me was just being in that uncomfortable space of going,yeah, this has happened.
(34:57):
Thank you for coming in your not knowing space.
I mean, I hate it.
This is the thing.
uh I love it and I hate it.
It's always going to be both.
It's always the beautiful and the dangerous.
It's the bit of going, oh yeah, I talk about beginner's mind all the time.
It's like, yeah, but not me.
It's fine for other people.
(35:17):
And yet when it happens, I realize this is why I talk about it because it's important.
Wow.
So what would you want to say to listeners who are a little bit averse to not knowing?
you're my people.
I am you.
(35:38):
I don't like not knowing.
I don't like uncertainty.
don't like ambiguity.
And yet, how boring would it be to be certain about everything?
Look at the world we're living in at the moment with so many people who sound so certainabout things that are so complex and unknowable.
It's theatre.
(36:00):
It's fiction.
And
I'd much rather be in that place of not knowing and be open about not knowing than pretendthat there is some solution to this wildness of life.
So yeah, they're my people.
I feel it.
not, I wouldn't persuade anyone to change.
(36:21):
wouldn't try and, I wouldn't dream of saying, don't be like that.
Because if someone said to me, don't be like that, I'd be like, whatever.
I'm quite okay being like that.
That's such a beautiful message that says, you know, it's hard for all of us and we are init.
(36:41):
And for coaches, you know, we are in it every day.
Or not.
Yeah.
I think the times when I'm at my worst as a coach is when I go, no, what's going on here?
And I have to go, Oh, stop it.
That may or may not be true, but it doesn't matter.
It's that spot, it, between being not being out of control, but also not being in control.
(37:06):
And I think that's where the work happens.
I could talk to you all day.
I've got so many things I want to ask you.
And our lovely listeners need to move on.
And you what I love as much as knowing an ending is also a bit of a cliffhanger.
So I quite like leaving unfinished.
(37:26):
I quite like going, yeah, we could just keep talking and knowing that that potential isstill there and that we will keep talking maybe in different places, but that that to be
continued, which I guess is the theme for me at the moment.
Nice.
So what's your podcast Paul?
So my podcast is called Still Here, Still Queer, Now What?
(37:49):
after the book.
And it's a combination of me rambling about the world and then interviews with peopleeither who feature in the book or who I didn't have time to interview in the book.
So I've got some amazing interviews with all kinds of fantastic people.
I also have a couple of other podcasts, which are now like archive podcasts, but I stillgo back and listen to them.
(38:10):
Actually, the first one that I did in lockdown was called Hopecast.
which was a podcast on spirituality and sexuality with a very diverse group of people.
Someone who was raised Christian, someone who was raised Muslim, someone who was raisedBuddhist, a drag queen, and me in the middle of it all going, I don't make sense of any of
(38:34):
this.
And so we did Hopecast, we did about 80 episodes over that time.
And there were six of us all around the world.
Four of us got together last night at the launch at the wake.
which was lovely.
So we were thinking we might do a reunion of Hopecast because we felt like actually maybeit's about time for a bit more hope.
And I did another podcast just as a bit of a side project once when I was a bit quiet,which was called Exploring the Heart of Change.
(39:01):
And that was about having conversations with people who'd either made a change happen or achange had happened to them to see if they could find some art at the heart of it.
So that was just a short series, I think of about eight episodes.
So yeah, I like podcasting and I love being a podcast guest.
very honored to be part of your story as well.
(39:22):
Well, thank you for coming.
lots of podcast places to find Paul.
I'll put his website in the show notes.
If you want to find out about the book, sign the petition and we'll change the show noteswhen the book comes out.
you.
Thank you for having me and thank you for just your brilliant, inspiring self.
(39:45):
Your work has made such a difference to my work and I will always be grateful for that.
So thank you.
Well, thank you and thank you for, yeah, for bringing to the world a story that needs tobe told, which is coming soon somewhere, probably.
(40:06):
Thank you, everyone, definitely.
Thank you, everyone, for listening.
Thank you, Paul, for coming to The Coaching Inn.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye-bye.
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