October 29, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of The Coaching Inn, Claire Pedrick hosts Laura Steckley, Sarah Deeley, and Gemma Watson from CELCIS (Centre for Excellence for Children's Care and Protection) to discuss the RALF project. RALF is the Reflective and Action Learning Forum. They explore how Action Learning and reflective practice are transforming residential childcare in Scotland and its impact on reducing physical restraint. Reflective practice benefits both practitioners and children. A deep dive into the importance of creating reflective spaces for practitioners, hear insights about the challenges and successes of implementing RALF and its potential to become a self-sustaining model within the sector.
Here’s the report: https://pureportal.strath.ac.uk/en/publications/the-reflection-and-action-learning-forum-ralf-full-report
Find out more about training with 3D Coaching to be an Action Learning Set Facilitator
Contact:
- Contact CELCIS https://www.celcis.org/contact-us
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Coming Up:
- Open Table - Remember those new coaches we first met in Series 3? They are back - 2 years on
Keywords:
RALF, Action Learning, reflective practice, residential childcare, Scotland, physical restraint, support, collaboration, self-sustaining model, childcare transformation, reflective spaces, practitioner support, cultural shift, positive impacts, sustainability, empowerment, co-production, emotional wellbeing, facilitation, leadership buy-in
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, I'm very excited about this week's podcast.
Su has been telling me forever and a day that I needed to talk to the team in Scotland whoorganized RALF about Action Learning.
So Action Learning is a form of many to one coaching where a group of people get togetherand everyone in the group asks,
(00:26):
insightful questions of the person who's brought a thing to think about.
So it's kind of upside down coaching.
So many people noticing asking the questions offering one person bringing the thing and itabsolutely escalates the capacity for us to learn new things because we're being listened
to times six or five or eight or whatever, however many other people are in the room.
(00:50):
And there's a coaching style used.
You
to hold the group, to facilitate the group.
And you may have been on our Action Learning Set Facilitator training.
And if you haven't, have a look because it teaches you in the equivalent of a day to beable to do that.
And it's great development and training.
And Su is fabulous at running it.
(01:13):
So.
In this week's episode, I finally managed to get them all in the room together with me andtell us a bit about what they're doing at RALF using Action Learning to support people in
residential childcare.
And it's absolutely fascinating and it's just fascinating and a really useful thing andsome really deep learning from these lovely people who are trying to make a difference.
(01:42):
around using restraint with children.
So it's a different kind of episode today.
And I am really looking forward to hearing your insights, comments and questions.
So do email us at info at 3Dcoaching.com.
And also give us a shout if you'd love to join the next Action Learning Set FacilitatorTraining hosted by the inimitable Su who trained Laura, Sarah and Gemma who are guests
(02:09):
today.
So over to you.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
(02:31):
Su Blanch did some work with Strathclyde University around RALF and kept saying to me, youmust have the RALF team in to come and have a podcast.
So here they are, Laura Steckley, Sarah Deeley.
and Gemma Watson, welcome to The Coaching Inn
Thank you, Claire.
(02:51):
lovely to have you here.
So in a minute we're going to find all about RALF and what you're doing but first of alljust tell us a little bit about who you are.
Why don't we start with you Laura?
Okay, my name is Laura Steckley and I teach and do research at the University ofStrathclyde in Glasgow in Scotland.
(03:14):
Thank you, and you come from somewhere else in the world, I think.
I do.
come from um the western part of the United States, which my whole country's in meltdownat the moment.
Yeah, yeah, so quite a lot of our listeners come from the States, so they'll be happy tohear you.
(03:36):
Sarah!
Thanks for having us, Claire.
em I'm Sarah Deeley.
I'm the Residential Child Care Lead at CELCIS which is based at the University ofStrathclyde.
Nice, well you're very welcome Sarah and hello Gemma!
Hello Claire, thank you for having us.
My name is Gemma Watson, I'm an Improving Care Experiences Consultant and I work in SarahDeeley's team in the residential childcare sector in Scotland.
(04:03):
Nice, well it's such a delight to have you all here.
So what is RALF?
I've kept seeing RALF in Su's diary.
What is RALF?
I'll start because I started a conversation with Sarah and Gemma last week about we needto make sure that we explain that RALF has Action Learning in it, but it also has more.
(04:27):
so um RALF came about when the Scottish Physical Restraint Action Group was in its earlystages and we identified the need for
for supporting reflective space.
so we um came together and co-produced the model, which is part Action Learning and part amore unstructured, um free flowing space for people to digest the really profound impacts
(05:03):
that the work has on them um and kind of make sense of especially the emotional componentof the work.
So RALF stands for Reflection and Action Learning Forum.
So this is around physical restraint in residential child care, but RALF supports the workmore widely, which is caring for children and young people who, for a variety of reasons,
(05:28):
are no longer living with their families of origin.
They're living in residential child care either for temporary periods or much longer term.
And many of these children have
experience some of the most significant adversities in Scotland, often including trauma.
And so the work can be very intense and very challenging for the children, young people,as well as for the adults who care for them.
(05:51):
Thank you, so you're putting in some support.
Thank you, that's so interesting to hear.
So Sarah, what's your role in this?
So RALF, we love an acronym.
So RALF is born from SPRAG, which Laura mentioned, the Scottish Physical Restraint ActionGroup.
(06:14):
And I'm one of the facilitators alongside Laura, Gemma and one of our other colleagues,Craig.
We facilitate the Scottish Physical Restraint Action Group.
It was members of SPRAG who
came up with the idea and said wouldn't it be great if we could offer a space forreflection.
SPRAGS is a group where we have lots of representation from lots of key partners allacross Scotland.
(06:39):
So a lot of the conversations can be quite strategic, we can try to influence policy, wesit in quite a balcony view when we're looking out across Scotland and the changes that
we're trying to make.
in that journey towards restraint reduction.
But there also needs to be a space for talking about practice issues, talking about thechallenges that the sector are grappling with, talking about the real life day in, day
(07:08):
out, what's happening in residential childcare.
So my role was to help members of SPRAG who were interested in co-designing something cometogether.
We very much work in partnership though, Laura, Gemma and I.
It's very much a team effort, but m we all bring slightly different things.
(07:30):
I've brought some knowledge of implementation and improvement work that I've done inprevious roles in previous projects, and I was able to bring that into the design process.
So what does it look like the work that you do with RALF?
(07:53):
Gemma?
So we were really intentional.
There was a pilot of RALF around four years ago, a small scale pilot.
There was a few facilitators trained who supported the facilitation of a few groups acrossScotland.
And we received some funding through the Promise Partnership around two and a half yearsago that allowed us to really pay attention to how we scale and spread the work across
(08:19):
Scotland to a larger group and number of people.
um And I came in at that point when the funding was allocated um and joined such anenthusiastic group of people who um it was infectious.
The enthusiasm for RALF and the impact that RALF could have on people's direct practicewas infectious.
(08:39):
um And I got to experience a RALF session really early in my journey.
And it was a light bulb moment for me, Claire, in terms of, now I understand.
why people are so enthusiastic about this, but also why people need RALF in terms of theirown practice and the space to reflect at depth and learn from each other.
(09:01):
So we put together a group, we asked for volunteers from SPRAG to help us think about theco-design of the rollout of RALF at a national level.
And we were overwhelmed with how responsive the SPRAG membership was.
People who are already incredibly busy, people caring for children every day.
gave up almost a whole day across three sessions to come together and think with us abouthow we roll this out to make it most impactful across the sector.
(09:30):
And we really paid attention to some of the principles of co-design about shared power inthe room and shared decision making and paying attention to relationships, being really
relational to allow people to be honest about what would work for them, being reallyrelational in our approach to how we co-designed something that
was fit for purpose.
(09:51):
And we really paid attention to how the scaling spread.
We trained people in small cohorts of five or six people and we learned from that cohortto train the next group of people to allow it to be as slick, suppose, and as fit for
purpose as it could be for the facilitators.
(10:14):
Wow.
So Laura, what impact has it had?
m Well, wondered if listeners might be interested in, the impacts that maybe relate moreclosely to the Action Learning part of RALF.
So we collected data in a number of different ways from participants, both facilitators ofthe RALF.
(10:43):
forums and group members.
And the changes to thinking was the strongest, like the thing that people talked aboutmost.
And there were some changes to their thinking that really looked like the Action Learningpart of RALF had really influenced that.
(11:05):
uh I mean, generally people talked about most that they thought more and they reflectedmore as a result of their experiences.
um as part of the RALF project.
But the more specific changes to their thinking had to do with one of the reallyoverriding themes was around like, I don't just rush in and feel like I have to fix.
(11:26):
Now, part of that will come also from the space to be able to lean into and notice whatyou're feeling and what that might be telling you.
And that comes from the second half of the model.
But people did talk about like,
really empowering other people or feeling empowered to find their own solutions and to umor to be a supervisor or manager who goes into a situation now thinking about what
(11:56):
questions am I going to ask this person to support them rather than just going in androlling out my sleeves and fixing things myself.
And so that definitely feels like it had a big impact.
I think
um The impacts on relationships was another strong thing that people talked about andimpacts on service culture.
(12:18):
So um the data spoke to individual impacts more strongly, impacts on the way people feltand they felt more confident, the way people were in relationship with children, young
people, um more empathetic with difficult behaviour and
(12:39):
than changes to service culture around um just people feeling more safe, peopleunderstanding each other better.
And a couple of participants talked about reduction in incidents and they felt like theirinvolvement in the RALF project had a part in that.
Like we would never want to claim that RALF or SPRAG more widely, single-handedly doesanything.
(13:02):
We're there to enhance the already existing efforts that are happening in an organizationand
uh Also, organisations already existing efforts are enhancing the work of RALF, like it'sa two-way process.
So we were really delighted and there's a link to the report and a shortened version ofthe report with uh those impacts and the learning as well.
(13:31):
So uh I think there's also learning related to implementation theory that I'd like to handover to Sarah and Gemma
So we'll put a link to the report in the show notes so listeners if you want to have aread of that just check out the show notes and it's there.
So Sarah, Gemma, what else?
Well, jump in and start off, Gem, and then you can pick up.
(13:55):
So when we paid lots of attention to training alone is not enough, we didn't want to trainour facilitators and let them go and deal with really difficult, tricky situations or
emotional subjects or potentially difficult
(14:18):
groups, RALF groups and RALF sessions and not give them the support that they need.
So we've put a whole scaffolding of support in for our facilitators as they move forward.
being trained as a RALF facilitators only one part of the project.
It's only one part of the bigger process.
Our facilitators over the two year funding period, they were given a link person.
(14:42):
So we had an oversight group made up.
of people who wanted to be involved in the RALF project.
They had specific knowledge and skills and qualities that made them em the right people tobe on our oversight group.
And they would volunteer to link in with our facilitator.
So every facilitator would get a hot debrief within 48 hours of facilitating a RALFsession.
(15:04):
Just that emotional wellbeing check in, how are you, how are you doing, em that type ofthing.
Our facilitators all became part of a facilitator community of practice.
So at the community practice, it was almost a session of two halves.
would have one of the people Su and one of our other trainers who trained our facilitatorswould come along and take part.
(15:28):
So it was that access to ongoing support, coaching, training, mentoring, know, that anopportunity to test out.
tried this, I'm not very sure.
Can I ask you a question about, it was a space that.
Our facilitators never had to wait too long to get access to somebody who was able to givethem a bit of advice and support.
(15:50):
And the second half of the community of practice sessions was open, reflective spacebecause we know we need emotional containment, particularly if you're in the role of
facilitator, you're taking on the emotions and the feelings and the energies of everybodyin your group that needs to go somewhere for you to be protected and looked after.
(16:12):
We would have space for peer to peer support.
Laura, Gemma and I would loosely facilitate those sessions for the second half.
um And we had a handbook that our facilitators could link in with.
We had a teams tile, so there was opportunity for facilitators to chat and connect.
(16:33):
If we'd seen a linked a podcast, we would pop it on the teams chat.
People could connect that way.
So we were growing that community.
round about and it wasn't just training.
Such a beautiful description of the building of the scaffolding, isn't it?
Because as you're talking, you can feel the scaffolding being built up and the person kindof being held in the middle in a really uh beautiful way.
(17:01):
Thank you, Sarah.
Gemma.
Our facilitators also had the opportunity to be group members and were facilitated um bythe wonderful Su.
So they were held in that way where they could bring any dilemmas or practice challengesfrom facilitating RALF groups into their group that was facilitated by Su as a group
(17:23):
member.
And something else we put in terms of support for our facilitators was within their ownorganisations at the point of sign up.
loose application form for people to apply to become facilitators and we asked for someendorsement from a senior manager within the organisation who could offer some support and
(17:43):
just some understanding around the time that was required for training and to be a realfacilitator and support the person within their own organisation also.
Wow.
And it's really interesting as you're talking, you've kind of said but haven't saiddirectly.
There's something here about the support for people that's beyond the case.
(18:08):
Because I'm sure they get support on the case locally, but you're talking about adifferent level of looking, aren't you?
Does anyone want to say a little bit more about that?
I think there's layers and they match the layers that we know.
if we're gonna help adult, like if adults are gonna be able to metaphorically holdchildren more effectively through relationship, through provision of nurturing processes
(18:40):
and environments, then they need their own parallel version of that.
And the people who are holding adults through the tricky bits and through the rough timesalso need to be
held, if you will, psychologically, um intellectually, cognitively, because it's all verychallenging and sometimes very disturbing work.
(19:03):
Really painful stuff has happened to these kids.
And a lot of the adults as well have painful things in their histories, some of whichmaybe send them on the path of wanting to help other people.
And so all of that could be in a really pressure cooker type environment.
And so the RALF
project has those layers in mind.
(19:25):
And it worked really well in some services and other services.
I think it was really hard for the facilitators to um bring it back and implement it.
And I think some of it is practical how the competing demands just feel like impossible.
And I think some of it is you're asking people to go to a really painful place.
(19:47):
mentally, psychologically and spend time reflecting and talking about things likevulnerability, people's willingness to be and ability to be vulnerable was another impact
that the participants talked about.
But it's experiential and people will resist going there until they start to have positiveexperiences of that.
(20:07):
so, um yeah, so it's very challenging to take that away and implement it.
And some services, I think,
the facilitators were able to do that much more effectively and others, uh it was morechallenging for them.
And in some, think they just weren't able to embed it in an ongoing way in their service.
(20:32):
there's learning from that too going forward because the need for it is still there evenif the uptake wasn't.
How interesting.
So a lot about safety and vulnerability.
I'm just wondering, whoever wants to take this question, what do you know even more nowabout safety and vulnerability that you didn't know when you started this project?
(20:56):
Yeah, I can jump in.
um In terms of safety and vulnerability.
I think our workforce are so important for uh residential childcare to make a differencein the lives of children and young people.
We need to look after our workforce.
(21:18):
um They are one of the key levers and the key drivers and for them to be looked after.
They need to be able to bring safety.
They need to experience safety.
A space where they can bring a level of vulnerability that they're OK with.
um And it will look different at different times.
(21:38):
So the vulnerability you show in your one to one with your direct line manager isdifferent to the vulnerability you would show maybe in your team meetings or in direct
work with children and young people.
But to be able to pivot.
and adapt and flex and bring the appropriate level of vulnerable self to these differentspaces, you need to have a good understanding of yourself.
(22:04):
And that comes from coaching and support and good spaces and good people around about youwho are able to help you make sense of that.
um that comes from your senior management and your leadership teams.
and it comes from the systems and structures that are in place.
we need organisations to be providing the workforce with spaces to reflect, with spaces tounpick the tricky stuff and to identify what's working well and how do we build on that.
(22:42):
We very much throughout RALF have came from an appreciative inquiry standpoint.
Laura's led other research around appreciative inquiry as well.
We could maybe put some links to that in as well if that was okay, Claire.
But we absolutely try and come from a what's working well and how can we build on that.
(23:03):
So that needs to happen within organisations, but there also needs to be bigger systemsand structures in place to support the organisations to do that as well.
What beautiful thing you've said there about supporting people to be clear what supportthey can get where.
(23:25):
and how to use them differently.
Because I think one of the things I observe in lots of supporting professions is thatoften we have more than one thing available to us and that clarity that you're describing
there of actually this is for this and this is for that is so important isn't it in orderto get that scaffolding robust.
(23:51):
in the same way that it needs to be.
Gemma you were nodding.
Yeah, I think something that we collectively realised, Laura, Sarah and I, alongside thefacilitators who were trained, was that when people are busy and the days are busy caring
for children and doing that job well every day, that spaces for reflection and coachingand mentoring are sometimes put in the back burner because the priority is the day job and
(24:19):
caring for children.
But it's when people need it most, that we've heard that it's when you really need to digdeep.
and prioritise that space for each other as colleagues, as managers, to ensure that peopleget the time to reflect and be coached and mentored.
Yeah, because you can't give from an empty cup, as they say.
(24:40):
Yeah.
What an extraordinary piece of work that you're involved in.
What's next?
Well, we were facing like the end of the funding period, which it ended in the spring.
(25:01):
And the funding period was to roll out the model and that rollout was co-produced justlike the model was co-produced.
And Sarah and Gemma spoke to that a bit.
And so we're at this place where there has been quite a lot of interest from services thathaven't
(25:22):
that weren't involved in the rollout.
And from those services that were, that want more facilitators, um the Care Inspectorateand the Scottish Government have also been interested in, apparently the Care Inspectorate
has been um with some of their services when they're doing their inspection, recommendingthat they get involved with SPRY again, but also with REL specifically.
(25:50):
because of the way that other services had talked about its impacts.
But we know that like training isn't enough and all the scaffolding requires resources.
And so we're figuring out how to make RALF more self-sustaining for the sector in a waythat it, yeah, it's not reliant on short-term periods of funding, although we may need a
(26:15):
short, you know, time limited.
period of funding in order to find a way to make RALF something that the sector itself cansustain.
So that's what we're hoping to do in the coming months.
In the meantime, we're just kind of stretching.
It's like what had just said, like with the busyness of everything, it can get pushed tothe background.
(26:38):
And it was the two years of Promise funding that enabled us to put it front and center anddo the rollout.
um And so
We're kind of stretching our diaries and our workloads to fit in, kind of continuedsupport for those facilitators.
We're not taking on any new facilitators, new services, even though there's an appetitefor it, but at least a bare minimum level of sustaining support for those people who've
(27:09):
already been part of the project and who are still going with it.
uh
But yeah, it requires a similar amount of resources to be able to put it front and centerand going forward.
So that's what we're working on.
We have some avenues for funding that we're looking to, but also some partners that we'rehoping to bring together to create something for the sector together that then the sector
(27:35):
we collectively do rather than it being
a Celcis Strathclyde thing, is what it's been up to now.
Celcis Strathclyde Promise thing for the two-year rollout, but from start until now, it'sbeen Celcis Strathclyde, and we still want to be involved, but yeah, it needs to be more
(27:59):
sustaining more broadly.
And you've raised such an interesting point there Laura about things that take cash andalso take enormous amounts of goodwill and resources and release of people which is just
as complicated isn't it and you describe beautifully there you know they're working on thefront line and so making the decision to release people is a tricky one but then if you
(28:30):
don't it has consequences.
So Sarah, Gemma, what else do you notice?
What are your hopes?
So at the minute we are continuing to offer, like Laura said, we're not training any morefacilitators, but we are continuing to offer a support to the facilitators who are
pre-existing and have completed their training and have chosen to facilitate their groupsin this interim period.
(28:54):
So we're continuing with the community of practice and I offer some one-to-one space toour facilitators to allow them to, it's not quite the debrief we offered before, but to
allow, to give them a space to come and talk about.
some of the challenges and some of the highlights, some of the wonderful things aboutfacilitating groups as well.
It's a real joy just to spend time with our facilitators and hear how their groups aregoing.
(29:20):
And I think we would really like to accredit something for our facilitators going forward,maybe offer them something more robust in terms of their training.
But again, that takes people and cash and all sorts of things.
Yeah.
Sarah, what are your hopes?
(29:44):
I would love to see RALF adopted nationally and residential childcare across Scotland.
That's my blue sky ambition.
um I have to take a slight step down from my blue sky ambition.
I'd love to see reflective practice prioritized um more greatly.
It takes resource, it does, and it takes time.
(30:08):
But I genuinely believe it's the thing that can make the difference.
um
for our workforce and for children and young people.
So it doesn't need to be RALF but there should be some form of reflective practiceavailable to the workforce.
So as we begin to come to an end, think my question to you is, our listeners are from allkinds of different sectors and I just am really curious to find out what would you like to
(30:38):
say to somebody who's wondering about Action Learning and reflective practice in theirorganisation?
What would be your top offer?
You're smiling Laura.
I'd like this message to get across anyway, so this is a good place to do it.
um So in our little professional bubble of residential child care and the promise is a bigpiece um of social policy around how care should be in Scotland for children and young
(31:11):
people.
And there's a big emphasis on reflective practice.
And a lot of the participants in RALF and a lot of our own experiences of not just RALF,the practice learning part of RALF was once you experience it, and I kind of touched on
this at the beginning, it's very experiential.
(31:32):
And so em understanding really what in-depth reflective practice looks like.
and feels like you can't know what you don't know, right?
And if you've never experienced that and you've never worked in a place that the cultureand practices of the place naturally afford that kind of development and those kinds of
(31:57):
conversations, um then a lot of our participants were like, I had no idea until I was partof the RALF Project.
I had no idea what like
in-depth reflection was really.
And so I guess my take home is that the scaffolding that RALF provides, we talked aboutthe scaffolding around RALF and around the facilitators, but RALF itself is really
(32:23):
important scaffolding that enables people to reflect at depth because like we've allworked with people who they kind of think they're reflective, but they're really not.
And maybe we've had our moments where we're not really reflective, but we're not veryself-aware.
requires something more than just the intention of being reflective, to be reflective atthe level of depth necessary for this kind of work and maybe, well, definitely other kinds
(32:51):
of work as well.
So if people are thinking about like Action Learning or if they're in residential childcare in Scotland and thinking about RALF, then um I would say, yeah, it's experiencing
that and really takes you to a depth that
unless you are working in a place that has extraordinary levels of culture aroundreflection, uh you'll need Action Learning or some other form of scaffolding to really be
(33:20):
able to do that kind of thinking, feeling work that integrates the two well, is my sense.
And that's something I've learned from the whole RALF journey.
Thank you.
Extraordinary levels of culture around reflection.
a beautiful thing.
(33:41):
think for me it takes practice.
I think we can be reflective, but the more you practice it, the more it's a skill you canhone.
I think being part of RALF and speaking to others who have been part of RALF, it's hardfor it not to seep out into other spaces.
(34:01):
So that nurturing of reflective practice and being reflective as a group within anorganisation.
seeps into other conversations and to supervision and team meetings and it's infectiousand the more it's practiced the more it will seep into the corners of organisations and
the different spaces that are created and just taking time to prioritize people and givepeople what they need to be the very best version of themselves that can show up for
(34:32):
children every day I think has been really key.
Thank you.
Isn't it interesting that when we work deeply and simply, people can copy it if they likeit?
We notice that in so many places across the organisations that we work with, that if it'ssimple, people go, oh yeah, I can do that.
And yes, you need to be trained and all of those other things, but actually there's plentyin this to borrow.
(35:00):
uh and it's borrowing that changes cultures.
Sarah, you have the final word.
Goodness.
I think for me, I agree with what Laura and Gemma have said as well.
So I'm going to try and come in with a slightly different lens here and it's round aboutthe implementation of change.
(35:23):
So introducing RALF, some organisations had high levels of reflective practice or ActionLearning set models or Action Learning.
You know, they had systems and structures in place, others didn't.
But no matter what level we were coming in at, we were still introducing a change in howwe were asking the workforce to reflect and spend time together.
(35:48):
And change is difficult and scary and hard and messy, but it can lead to the mostwonderful things.
And any form of change, any form of introduction or tweaks or adaptations that you'remaking to your systems and
structures for reflective practice, they need to be handled carefully and thoughtfully.
(36:14):
And it needs to be more than just that moment for reflection.
You need to think about how you implement it.
So what supports are you given?
What's your, what's your anticipatory guidance for the staff?
What's the check-ins?
What's the supports?
And where's your organisational buy-in, your leadership buy-in to make sure that that'sgoing to happen?
(36:35):
Because that's
we've seen through RALF and it comes up in the research as well, quite often that's whereit will fall down.
If you don't have your leader saying this is a priority and I want you to prioritise it,then that's quite often where the whole thinking falls.
Thank you so much.
So links in the show notes, lovely listeners.
(36:57):
uh Laura, Sarah, Gemma, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching Inn to talk aboutRALF.
uh If anyone has questions about using it in their organisations, I'll put links how tocontact you in the show notes.
So thank you for coming.
Thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
(37:18):
Bye bye.
Hello, I'm very excited about this week's podcast.
Su has been telling me forever and a day that I needed to talk to the team in Scotland whoorganized RALF about Action Learning.
So Action Learning is a form of many to one coaching where a group of people get togetherand everyone in the group asks,
(00:26):
insightful questions of the person who's brought a thing to think about.
So it's kind of upside down coaching.
So many people noticing asking the questions offering one person bringing the thing and itabsolutely escalates the capacity for us to learn new things because we're being listened
to times six or five or eight or whatever, however many other people are in the room.
(00:50):
And there's a coaching style used.
You
to hold the group, to facilitate the group.
And you may have been on our Action Learning Set Facilitator training.
And if you haven't, have a look because it teaches you in the equivalent of a day to beable to do that.
And it's great development and training.
And Su is fabulous at running it.
(01:13):
So.
In this week's episode, I finally managed to get them all in the room together with me andtell us a bit about what they're doing at RALF using Action Learning to support people in
residential childcare.
And it's absolutely fascinating and it's just fascinating and a really useful thing andsome really deep learning from these lovely people who are trying to make a difference.
(01:42):
around using restraint with children.
So it's a different kind of episode today.
And I am really looking forward to hearing your insights, comments and questions.
So do email us at info at 3Dcoaching.com.
And also give us a shout if you'd love to join the next Action Learning Set FacilitatorTraining hosted by the inimitable Su who trained Laura, Sarah and Gemma who are guests
(02:09):
today.
So over to you.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
(02:31):
Su Blanch did some work with Strathclyde University around RALF and kept saying to me, youmust have the RALF team in to come and have a podcast.
So here they are, Laura Steckley, Sarah Deeley.
and Gemma Watson, welcome to The Coaching Inn
Thank you, Claire.
(02:51):
lovely to have you here.
So in a minute we're going to find all about RALF and what you're doing but first of alljust tell us a little bit about who you are.
Why don't we start with you Laura?
Okay, my name is Laura Steckley and I teach and do research at the University ofStrathclyde in Glasgow in Scotland.
(03:14):
Thank you, and you come from somewhere else in the world, I think.
I do.
come from um the western part of the United States, which my whole country's in meltdownat the moment.
Yeah, yeah, so quite a lot of our listeners come from the States, so they'll be happy tohear you.
(03:36):
Sarah!
Thanks for having us, Claire.
em I'm Sarah Deeley.
I'm the Residential Child Care Lead at CELCIS which is based at the University ofStrathclyde.
Nice, well you're very welcome Sarah and hello Gemma!
Hello Claire, thank you for having us.
My name is Gemma Watson, I'm an Improving Care Experiences Consultant and I work in SarahDeeley's team in the residential childcare sector in Scotland.
(04:03):
Nice, well it's such a delight to have you all here.
So what is RALF?
I've kept seeing RALF in Su's diary.
What is RALF?
I'll start because I started a conversation with Sarah and Gemma last week about we needto make sure that we explain that RALF has Action Learning in it, but it also has more.
(04:27):
so um RALF came about when the Scottish Physical Restraint Action Group was in its earlystages and we identified the need for
for supporting reflective space.
so we um came together and co-produced the model, which is part Action Learning and part amore unstructured, um free flowing space for people to digest the really profound impacts
(05:03):
that the work has on them um and kind of make sense of especially the emotional componentof the work.
So RALF stands for Reflection and Action Learning Forum.
So this is around physical restraint in residential child care, but RALF supports the workmore widely, which is caring for children and young people who, for a variety of reasons,
(05:28):
are no longer living with their families of origin.
They're living in residential child care either for temporary periods or much longer term.
And many of these children have
experience some of the most significant adversities in Scotland, often including trauma.
And so the work can be very intense and very challenging for the children, young people,as well as for the adults who care for them.
(05:51):
Thank you, so you're putting in some support.
Thank you, that's so interesting to hear.
So Sarah, what's your role in this?
So RALF, we love an acronym.
So RALF is born from SPRAG, which Laura mentioned, the Scottish Physical Restraint ActionGroup.
(06:14):
And I'm one of the facilitators alongside Laura, Gemma and one of our other colleagues,Craig.
We facilitate the Scottish Physical Restraint Action Group.
It was members of SPRAG who
came up with the idea and said wouldn't it be great if we could offer a space forreflection.
SPRAGS is a group where we have lots of representation from lots of key partners allacross Scotland.
(06:39):
So a lot of the conversations can be quite strategic, we can try to influence policy, wesit in quite a balcony view when we're looking out across Scotland and the changes that
we're trying to make.
in that journey towards restraint reduction.
But there also needs to be a space for talking about practice issues, talking about thechallenges that the sector are grappling with, talking about the real life day in, day
(07:08):
out, what's happening in residential childcare.
So my role was to help members of SPRAG who were interested in co-designing something cometogether.
We very much work in partnership though, Laura, Gemma and I.
It's very much a team effort, but m we all bring slightly different things.
(07:30):
I've brought some knowledge of implementation and improvement work that I've done inprevious roles in previous projects, and I was able to bring that into the design process.
So what does it look like the work that you do with RALF?
(07:53):
Gemma?
So we were really intentional.
There was a pilot of RALF around four years ago, a small scale pilot.
There was a few facilitators trained who supported the facilitation of a few groups acrossScotland.
And we received some funding through the Promise Partnership around two and a half yearsago that allowed us to really pay attention to how we scale and spread the work across
(08:19):
Scotland to a larger group and number of people.
um And I came in at that point when the funding was allocated um and joined such anenthusiastic group of people who um it was infectious.
The enthusiasm for RALF and the impact that RALF could have on people's direct practicewas infectious.
(08:39):
um And I got to experience a RALF session really early in my journey.
And it was a light bulb moment for me, Claire, in terms of, now I understand.
why people are so enthusiastic about this, but also why people need RALF in terms of theirown practice and the space to reflect at depth and learn from each other.
(09:01):
So we put together a group, we asked for volunteers from SPRAG to help us think about theco-design of the rollout of RALF at a national level.
And we were overwhelmed with how responsive the SPRAG membership was.
People who are already incredibly busy, people caring for children every day.
gave up almost a whole day across three sessions to come together and think with us abouthow we roll this out to make it most impactful across the sector.
(09:30):
And we really paid attention to some of the principles of co-design about shared power inthe room and shared decision making and paying attention to relationships, being really
relational to allow people to be honest about what would work for them, being reallyrelational in our approach to how we co-designed something that
was fit for purpose.
(09:51):
And we really paid attention to how the scaling spread.
We trained people in small cohorts of five or six people and we learned from that cohortto train the next group of people to allow it to be as slick, suppose, and as fit for
purpose as it could be for the facilitators.
(10:14):
Wow.
So Laura, what impact has it had?
m Well, wondered if listeners might be interested in, the impacts that maybe relate moreclosely to the Action Learning part of RALF.
So we collected data in a number of different ways from participants, both facilitators ofthe RALF.
(10:43):
forums and group members.
And the changes to thinking was the strongest, like the thing that people talked aboutmost.
And there were some changes to their thinking that really looked like the Action Learningpart of RALF had really influenced that.
(11:05):
uh I mean, generally people talked about most that they thought more and they reflectedmore as a result of their experiences.
um as part of the RALF project.
But the more specific changes to their thinking had to do with one of the reallyoverriding themes was around like, I don't just rush in and feel like I have to fix.
(11:26):
Now, part of that will come also from the space to be able to lean into and notice whatyou're feeling and what that might be telling you.
And that comes from the second half of the model.
But people did talk about like,
really empowering other people or feeling empowered to find their own solutions and to umor to be a supervisor or manager who goes into a situation now thinking about what
(11:56):
questions am I going to ask this person to support them rather than just going in androlling out my sleeves and fixing things myself.
And so that definitely feels like it had a big impact.
I think
um The impacts on relationships was another strong thing that people talked about andimpacts on service culture.
(12:18):
So um the data spoke to individual impacts more strongly, impacts on the way people feltand they felt more confident, the way people were in relationship with children, young
people, um more empathetic with difficult behaviour and
(12:39):
than changes to service culture around um just people feeling more safe, peopleunderstanding each other better.
And a couple of participants talked about reduction in incidents and they felt like theirinvolvement in the RALF project had a part in that.
Like we would never want to claim that RALF or SPRAG more widely, single-handedly doesanything.
(13:02):
We're there to enhance the already existing efforts that are happening in an organizationand
uh Also, organisations already existing efforts are enhancing the work of RALF, like it'sa two-way process.
So we were really delighted and there's a link to the report and a shortened version ofthe report with uh those impacts and the learning as well.
(13:31):
So uh I think there's also learning related to implementation theory that I'd like to handover to Sarah and Gemma
So we'll put a link to the report in the show notes so listeners if you want to have aread of that just check out the show notes and it's there.
So Sarah, Gemma, what else?
Well, jump in and start off, Gem, and then you can pick up.
(13:55):
So when we paid lots of attention to training alone is not enough, we didn't want to trainour facilitators and let them go and deal with really difficult, tricky situations or
emotional subjects or potentially difficult
(14:18):
groups, RALF groups and RALF sessions and not give them the support that they need.
So we've put a whole scaffolding of support in for our facilitators as they move forward.
being trained as a RALF facilitators only one part of the project.
It's only one part of the bigger process.
Our facilitators over the two year funding period, they were given a link person.
(14:42):
So we had an oversight group made up.
of people who wanted to be involved in the RALF project.
They had specific knowledge and skills and qualities that made them em the right people tobe on our oversight group.
And they would volunteer to link in with our facilitator.
So every facilitator would get a hot debrief within 48 hours of facilitating a RALFsession.
(15:04):
Just that emotional wellbeing check in, how are you, how are you doing, em that type ofthing.
Our facilitators all became part of a facilitator community of practice.
So at the community practice, it was almost a session of two halves.
would have one of the people Su and one of our other trainers who trained our facilitatorswould come along and take part.
(15:28):
So it was that access to ongoing support, coaching, training, mentoring, know, that anopportunity to test out.
tried this, I'm not very sure.
Can I ask you a question about, it was a space that.
Our facilitators never had to wait too long to get access to somebody who was able to givethem a bit of advice and support.
(15:50):
And the second half of the community of practice sessions was open, reflective spacebecause we know we need emotional containment, particularly if you're in the role of
facilitator, you're taking on the emotions and the feelings and the energies of everybodyin your group that needs to go somewhere for you to be protected and looked after.
(16:12):
We would have space for peer to peer support.
Laura, Gemma and I would loosely facilitate those sessions for the second half.
um And we had a handbook that our facilitators could link in with.
We had a teams tile, so there was opportunity for facilitators to chat and connect.
(16:33):
If we'd seen a linked a podcast, we would pop it on the teams chat.
People could connect that way.
So we were growing that community.
round about and it wasn't just training.
Such a beautiful description of the building of the scaffolding, isn't it?
Because as you're talking, you can feel the scaffolding being built up and the person kindof being held in the middle in a really uh beautiful way.
(17:01):
Thank you, Sarah.
Gemma.
Our facilitators also had the opportunity to be group members and were facilitated um bythe wonderful Su.
So they were held in that way where they could bring any dilemmas or practice challengesfrom facilitating RALF groups into their group that was facilitated by Su as a group
(17:23):
member.
And something else we put in terms of support for our facilitators was within their ownorganisations at the point of sign up.
loose application form for people to apply to become facilitators and we asked for someendorsement from a senior manager within the organisation who could offer some support and
(17:43):
just some understanding around the time that was required for training and to be a realfacilitator and support the person within their own organisation also.
Wow.
And it's really interesting as you're talking, you've kind of said but haven't saiddirectly.
There's something here about the support for people that's beyond the case.
(18:08):
Because I'm sure they get support on the case locally, but you're talking about adifferent level of looking, aren't you?
Does anyone want to say a little bit more about that?
I think there's layers and they match the layers that we know.
if we're gonna help adult, like if adults are gonna be able to metaphorically holdchildren more effectively through relationship, through provision of nurturing processes
(18:40):
and environments, then they need their own parallel version of that.
And the people who are holding adults through the tricky bits and through the rough timesalso need to be
held, if you will, psychologically, um intellectually, cognitively, because it's all verychallenging and sometimes very disturbing work.
(19:03):
Really painful stuff has happened to these kids.
And a lot of the adults as well have painful things in their histories, some of whichmaybe send them on the path of wanting to help other people.
And so all of that could be in a really pressure cooker type environment.
And so the RALF
project has those layers in mind.
(19:25):
And it worked really well in some services and other services.
I think it was really hard for the facilitators to um bring it back and implement it.
And I think some of it is practical how the competing demands just feel like impossible.
And I think some of it is you're asking people to go to a really painful place.
(19:47):
mentally, psychologically and spend time reflecting and talking about things likevulnerability, people's willingness to be and ability to be vulnerable was another impact
that the participants talked about.
But it's experiential and people will resist going there until they start to have positiveexperiences of that.
(20:07):
so, um yeah, so it's very challenging to take that away and implement it.
And some services, I think,
the facilitators were able to do that much more effectively and others, uh it was morechallenging for them.
And in some, think they just weren't able to embed it in an ongoing way in their service.
(20:32):
there's learning from that too going forward because the need for it is still there evenif the uptake wasn't.
How interesting.
So a lot about safety and vulnerability.
I'm just wondering, whoever wants to take this question, what do you know even more nowabout safety and vulnerability that you didn't know when you started this project?
(20:56):
Yeah, I can jump in.
um In terms of safety and vulnerability.
I think our workforce are so important for uh residential childcare to make a differencein the lives of children and young people.
We need to look after our workforce.
(21:18):
um They are one of the key levers and the key drivers and for them to be looked after.
They need to be able to bring safety.
They need to experience safety.
A space where they can bring a level of vulnerability that they're OK with.
um And it will look different at different times.
(21:38):
So the vulnerability you show in your one to one with your direct line manager isdifferent to the vulnerability you would show maybe in your team meetings or in direct
work with children and young people.
But to be able to pivot.
and adapt and flex and bring the appropriate level of vulnerable self to these differentspaces, you need to have a good understanding of yourself.
(22:04):
And that comes from coaching and support and good spaces and good people around about youwho are able to help you make sense of that.
um that comes from your senior management and your leadership teams.
and it comes from the systems and structures that are in place.
we need organisations to be providing the workforce with spaces to reflect, with spaces tounpick the tricky stuff and to identify what's working well and how do we build on that.
(22:42):
We very much throughout RALF have came from an appreciative inquiry standpoint.
Laura's led other research around appreciative inquiry as well.
We could maybe put some links to that in as well if that was okay, Claire.
But we absolutely try and come from a what's working well and how can we build on that.
(23:03):
So that needs to happen within organisations, but there also needs to be bigger systemsand structures in place to support the organisations to do that as well.
What beautiful thing you've said there about supporting people to be clear what supportthey can get where.
(23:25):
and how to use them differently.
Because I think one of the things I observe in lots of supporting professions is thatoften we have more than one thing available to us and that clarity that you're describing
there of actually this is for this and this is for that is so important isn't it in orderto get that scaffolding robust.
(23:51):
in the same way that it needs to be.
Gemma you were nodding.
Yeah, I think something that we collectively realised, Laura, Sarah and I, alongside thefacilitators who were trained, was that when people are busy and the days are busy caring
for children and doing that job well every day, that spaces for reflection and coachingand mentoring are sometimes put in the back burner because the priority is the day job and
(24:19):
caring for children.
But it's when people need it most, that we've heard that it's when you really need to digdeep.
and prioritise that space for each other as colleagues, as managers, to ensure that peopleget the time to reflect and be coached and mentored.
Yeah, because you can't give from an empty cup, as they say.
(24:40):
Yeah.
What an extraordinary piece of work that you're involved in.
What's next?
Well, we were facing like the end of the funding period, which it ended in the spring.
(25:01):
And the funding period was to roll out the model and that rollout was co-produced justlike the model was co-produced.
And Sarah and Gemma spoke to that a bit.
And so we're at this place where there has been quite a lot of interest from services thathaven't
(25:22):
that weren't involved in the rollout.
And from those services that were, that want more facilitators, um the Care Inspectorateand the Scottish Government have also been interested in, apparently the Care Inspectorate
has been um with some of their services when they're doing their inspection, recommendingthat they get involved with SPRY again, but also with REL specifically.
(25:50):
because of the way that other services had talked about its impacts.
But we know that like training isn't enough and all the scaffolding requires resources.
And so we're figuring out how to make RALF more self-sustaining for the sector in a waythat it, yeah, it's not reliant on short-term periods of funding, although we may need a
(26:15):
short, you know, time limited.
period of funding in order to find a way to make RALF something that the sector itself cansustain.
So that's what we're hoping to do in the coming months.
In the meantime, we're just kind of stretching.
It's like what had just said, like with the busyness of everything, it can get pushed tothe background.
(26:38):
And it was the two years of Promise funding that enabled us to put it front and center anddo the rollout.
um And so
We're kind of stretching our diaries and our workloads to fit in, kind of continuedsupport for those facilitators.
We're not taking on any new facilitators, new services, even though there's an appetitefor it, but at least a bare minimum level of sustaining support for those people who've
(27:09):
already been part of the project and who are still going with it.
uh
But yeah, it requires a similar amount of resources to be able to put it front and centerand going forward.
So that's what we're working on.
We have some avenues for funding that we're looking to, but also some partners that we'rehoping to bring together to create something for the sector together that then the sector
(27:35):
we collectively do rather than it being
a Celcis Strathclyde thing, is what it's been up to now.
Celcis Strathclyde Promise thing for the two-year rollout, but from start until now, it'sbeen Celcis Strathclyde, and we still want to be involved, but yeah, it needs to be more
(27:59):
sustaining more broadly.
And you've raised such an interesting point there Laura about things that take cash andalso take enormous amounts of goodwill and resources and release of people which is just
as complicated isn't it and you describe beautifully there you know they're working on thefront line and so making the decision to release people is a tricky one but then if you
(28:30):
don't it has consequences.
So Sarah, Gemma, what else do you notice?
What are your hopes?
So at the minute we are continuing to offer, like Laura said, we're not training any morefacilitators, but we are continuing to offer a support to the facilitators who are
pre-existing and have completed their training and have chosen to facilitate their groupsin this interim period.
(28:54):
So we're continuing with the community of practice and I offer some one-to-one space toour facilitators to allow them to, it's not quite the debrief we offered before, but to
allow, to give them a space to come and talk about.
some of the challenges and some of the highlights, some of the wonderful things aboutfacilitating groups as well.
It's a real joy just to spend time with our facilitators and hear how their groups aregoing.
(29:20):
And I think we would really like to accredit something for our facilitators going forward,maybe offer them something more robust in terms of their training.
But again, that takes people and cash and all sorts of things.
Yeah.
Sarah, what are your hopes?
(29:44):
I would love to see RALF adopted nationally and residential childcare across Scotland.
That's my blue sky ambition.
um I have to take a slight step down from my blue sky ambition.
I'd love to see reflective practice prioritized um more greatly.
It takes resource, it does, and it takes time.
(30:08):
But I genuinely believe it's the thing that can make the difference.
um
for our workforce and for children and young people.
So it doesn't need to be RALF but there should be some form of reflective practiceavailable to the workforce.
So as we begin to come to an end, think my question to you is, our listeners are from allkinds of different sectors and I just am really curious to find out what would you like to
(30:38):
say to somebody who's wondering about Action Learning and reflective practice in theirorganisation?
What would be your top offer?
You're smiling Laura.
I'd like this message to get across anyway, so this is a good place to do it.
um So in our little professional bubble of residential child care and the promise is a bigpiece um of social policy around how care should be in Scotland for children and young
(31:11):
people.
And there's a big emphasis on reflective practice.
And a lot of the participants in RALF and a lot of our own experiences of not just RALF,the practice learning part of RALF was once you experience it, and I kind of touched on
this at the beginning, it's very experiential.
(31:32):
And so em understanding really what in-depth reflective practice looks like.
and feels like you can't know what you don't know, right?
And if you've never experienced that and you've never worked in a place that the cultureand practices of the place naturally afford that kind of development and those kinds of
(31:57):
conversations, um then a lot of our participants were like, I had no idea until I was partof the RALF Project.
I had no idea what like
in-depth reflection was really.
And so I guess my take home is that the scaffolding that RALF provides, we talked aboutthe scaffolding around RALF and around the facilitators, but RALF itself is really
(32:23):
important scaffolding that enables people to reflect at depth because like we've allworked with people who they kind of think they're reflective, but they're really not.
And maybe we've had our moments where we're not really reflective, but we're not veryself-aware.
requires something more than just the intention of being reflective, to be reflective atthe level of depth necessary for this kind of work and maybe, well, definitely other kinds
(32:51):
of work as well.
So if people are thinking about like Action Learning or if they're in residential childcare in Scotland and thinking about RALF, then um I would say, yeah, it's experiencing
that and really takes you to a depth that
unless you are working in a place that has extraordinary levels of culture aroundreflection, uh you'll need Action Learning or some other form of scaffolding to really be
(33:20):
able to do that kind of thinking, feeling work that integrates the two well, is my sense.
And that's something I've learned from the whole RALF journey.
Thank you.
Extraordinary levels of culture around reflection.
a beautiful thing.
(33:41):
think for me it takes practice.
I think we can be reflective, but the more you practice it, the more it's a skill you canhone.
I think being part of RALF and speaking to others who have been part of RALF, it's hardfor it not to seep out into other spaces.
(34:01):
So that nurturing of reflective practice and being reflective as a group within anorganisation.
seeps into other conversations and to supervision and team meetings and it's infectiousand the more it's practiced the more it will seep into the corners of organisations and
the different spaces that are created and just taking time to prioritize people and givepeople what they need to be the very best version of themselves that can show up for
(34:32):
children every day I think has been really key.
Thank you.
Isn't it interesting that when we work deeply and simply, people can copy it if they likeit?
We notice that in so many places across the organisations that we work with, that if it'ssimple, people go, oh yeah, I can do that.
And yes, you need to be trained and all of those other things, but actually there's plentyin this to borrow.
(35:00):
uh and it's borrowing that changes cultures.
Sarah, you have the final word.
Goodness.
I think for me, I agree with what Laura and Gemma have said as well.
So I'm going to try and come in with a slightly different lens here and it's round aboutthe implementation of change.
(35:23):
So introducing RALF, some organisations had high levels of reflective practice or ActionLearning set models or Action Learning.
You know, they had systems and structures in place, others didn't.
But no matter what level we were coming in at, we were still introducing a change in howwe were asking the workforce to reflect and spend time together.
(35:48):
And change is difficult and scary and hard and messy, but it can lead to the mostwonderful things.
And any form of change, any form of introduction or tweaks or adaptations that you'remaking to your systems and
structures for reflective practice, they need to be handled carefully and thoughtfully.
(36:14):
And it needs to be more than just that moment for reflection.
You need to think about how you implement it.
So what supports are you given?
What's your, what's your anticipatory guidance for the staff?
What's the check-ins?
What's the supports?
And where's your organisational buy-in, your leadership buy-in to make sure that that'sgoing to happen?
(36:35):
Because that's
we've seen through RALF and it comes up in the research as well, quite often that's whereit will fall down.
If you don't have your leader saying this is a priority and I want you to prioritise it,then that's quite often where the whole thinking falls.
Thank you so much.
So links in the show notes, lovely listeners.
(36:57):
uh Laura, Sarah, Gemma, thank you so much for coming to The Coaching Inn to talk aboutRALF.
uh If anyone has questions about using it in their organisations, I'll put links how tocontact you in the show notes.
So thank you for coming.
Thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
(37:18):
Bye bye.
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Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com