November 5, 2025 • 45 mins
Claire Pedrick and Karen Foy have been around in the coaching world for decades. Today they are at The Coaching Inn for a catch up and to celebrate the launch of Karen’s book 'Breaking the Coaching Code'. Lots of learning. Lots of laughter.
The first person to email Karen and tell her how many times we mentioned the book title through the episode will win a free signed copy. To win or to order your signed copy of Breaking The Coaching Code, email info@thecoachtribe.com
Contact:
- Contact Karen through Linked In
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
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Keywords:
coaching, authenticity, personal growth, Karen Foy, Claire Pedrick, Breaking the Coaching Code, coaching journey, personal wisdom, coaching myths, evolving coaching, NHS, coaching practices, AI in coaching, coaching authenticity, coaching stories, coaching evolution, coaching insights, coaching transformation, coaching innovation, coaching wisdom
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
And just a reminder, as you're listening, it would be lovely for us to know where in theworld you are.
So do pop us a note in comments on whatever app, whatever thing you're listening to on, orsend us an email to info@3dcoaching.com and say, I listen to The Coaching Inn and I live
(00:37):
in wherever.
It'd be lovely to hear that.
Today we have a guest from the UK who is a friend of mine and who honoured me, us, by uhhosting the launch of the last book, The Human Behind the Coach, in the virtual Coaching
Inn didn't you, Karen?
(00:58):
I did, yes, it was lovely.
So, uh welcome Karen Foy, who finally, and you've finally written the book when I keptwriting the book you wanted to write.
I was saying that to somebody the other day every time Claire wrote about it I was likethat's the book I wanted to write so I thought I'd better get off my backside and do one.
(01:21):
m
And what a great book it is, because I've read a version of it and it's delightful.
So Karen, just what got you into coaching?
And then we'll talk about.
Yeah, what got me into coaching?
I was saying to somebody recently, it was by accident.
(01:41):
don't know whether a lot people do that, but it was by accident.
I was working in the NHS, working nationally for the NHS.
I went on this programme, Creativity, Innovation and Change with Open University.
I went on a summer school.
You had to choose which tutors and things.
There were these two guys who were talking about this thing called coaching.
(02:03):
But as I was listening I thought, that's what I do when I'm supposed to be working.
sneaking and having conversations with my co-workers and you know they'd ring, oh I'mstruggling with this so I thought oh that's interesting.
So I went, I asked them well where did you learn this stuff and they told me so I went offand did my first coaching.
(02:27):
So I stayed, I stayed in my job or different jobs within NHS but was doing that on theside and absolutely loved it.
So for a while it took me before I
jumped and thought I'll do this full time.
Yeah, so that's how I got into it purely by accident.
didn't know what the heck it was what it was supposed to be and what it was called.
(02:50):
thinking something inside and I don't know whether to say it or not.
go on.
Why don't you?
oh
I really get that and you have de-institutionalised yourself.
Ooh, tell me more.
Well, I didn't know what sector you'd come from.
(03:15):
And there's a way people, you know, in lots of organisational sectors, there are wayspeople lead and you can kind of get a sense this person comes from, you know, the
not-for-profit or the corporate or the multinational or the small or the public sector orwhatever.
But I would not have had you down for the NHS.
How interesting.
(03:37):
And you know what's interesting as well, when you said the not-for-profit, I spent a lotof time working in as a community action.
So I worked in a lot in the voluntary sector and interestingly, although eons ago, whenFlo Nightingale was a girl, I was working as a nurse, but that was many, many years ago.
(04:00):
And I think I'd be, well, I think I was dangerous then, I think I'd be even more dangerousnow, but.
I, when I sort of broke out from that, I went off and did a psychology degree and cameback and then I started working in community action.
So I led a team and we worked very much in getting patient voices in NHS, em in policy.
(04:25):
And so that's what I was doing in the NHS, out of the clinical role, keeping everybodysafe, but just getting patients' voices into the NHS.
So, yeah, so that was...
So I did both, so non-government did some time advising in the Department of Health as acomment, but NHS, yeah.
(04:46):
So yeah, there's a surprise,
Yeah, but you're talking there about lots of listening, aren't you?
Listening to patients, listening to co-workers, ah all of those things.
So I apologize for writing your first two books.
Well, I'm glad you did, because you did a marvellous job.
(05:08):
I loved both of them and still, you know, still been looking, as you know, at one of yournew editions.
Yeah.
thank you so much.
So, tell us about your third book then.
Yes, because I do own those as well, you know, I feel like I co-own those.
uh Yeah.
(05:30):
Yeah.
I like the rebellion in there.
Yeah, or cracking the code, who knows?
em Yeah, there is, well, you know, I'm a little bit nervous and thinking, is it asrebellious as it could be?
Because it doesn't feel it now to me, it doesn't feel rebellious.
It feels like where you and I have been talking a long time around, you know what it'slike.
(05:53):
I started writing this book thinking about all of the people that I mentor or work withwho...
I've got this idea that, a phrase I hear a lot is, well, is that all right?
What would the ICF police think?
And you know, I thought, my gosh, this is just getting in everybody's way of being thegreat coaches I can hear behind that.
(06:17):
How can we free them up?
So it was a bit, you know, I worried when I first started writing it, is this just arepeat of the Gilman behind the coach?
Because it's kind of the same idea of.
How can we just free up people's internal wisdom?
And it doesn't mean rebellious as in, you know, breaking the codes not about, or let'sjust trash those.
(06:44):
It's just, let's stop thinking of them as these rules that so many myths have grown uparound them.
I don't know whether you've noticed that.
This is not allowed, that's not allowed.
Who says?
It's not allowed.
And I listened to a recording the other day with someone and they said, I want to get myMCC.
(07:07):
So for those of you who are not, who come from no coaching tribe or other coaching tribes,that's the top, see the International Coaching Federation, it's the top credential.
And they said, I don't think my coaching style will fit.
So I said, okay, let's listen.
Of it fitted.
(07:28):
They need to do some, they need to tighten some things up, but the tightening up is themdoing what they're doing even better, rather than them doing what they think someone else
is doing.
Can we just stay with Rebel for a bit?
Because as you're talking, I'm thinking, you and I have had these conversations for anumber of years now.
(07:52):
And I think that we are...
When we're together, I observe that we actually see how we perceive stuff as being quitenormal and therefore it doesn't feel very rebellious.
But I also notice that when you or I...
talk simply to groups of people or to individuals, it's quite radical.
(08:18):
Yes!
Yeah.
And that makes me sad, actually.
Where do you think the sadness is coming from?
Because I agree and I'm just wondering where yours comes from.
(08:38):
I think there's a huge pressure to tell people they need to know a lot.
teach it to them very fast.
dot not leave time for them to embed it.
and then tell them that they're coaching at a certain level.
(09:00):
So I'm thinking about accredited programs.
So they push people out, accreditation ready for the level, for the second level ofaccreditation, when actually they probably haven't done a huge amount of work and they
haven't integrated it.
So it's like, you and I both have interesting ways of processing things.
(09:22):
Yes.
But there's something about, you know, teaching somebody to do something and then whenthey start implementing it over time, they can't remember because they learned so much.
And the sadness is the myth that you need a lot and you need it quickly.
(09:47):
And I would say for me, you need a little bit and you need it slowly.
Yeah.
And then you can add things in when they are really going to be useful.
Yeah, that's really, uh it's really interesting because it's something you and I spokequite a few years ago and you said something that's kind of one of the seeds of this book.
(10:14):
You said something to me about at 3D Coaching we teach mastery from the start and
really challenged me for a while because I was thinking what is this teaching, what'sdifferent about teaching mastery from the start and so it really made me, you know, I
really had to think about it and really reflect on it for a long time and like you're justsaying now it's not just teaching stuff from the start it's the way of being from the
(10:49):
start and I think you're right
We teach the stuff, whatever the stuff is, we teach the competencies and when you do itlike this and you do it like that.
But I think there's something about the being from the start and that's part of what I'mdoing in this book is the first part of it is not about, particularly about coaching, but
(11:13):
about yourself and who you are.
Again, the human behind the coach, but just from a different take about just reflecting onwhat is it that you're bringing.
Because one of the things that I see in mentoring quite a lot is when people are trying tostick to these rules and trying to implement the stuff they've been learned, they forget
(11:36):
their unique gift and who they are.
And we're all different, aren't we?
You you and I are different coaches, but it's what we bring.
So it's almost like I know for a long time, I tried to rub out what I was.
to be what I thought was a good coach.
And I think of our mutual friend Aboudi in this where he says, you know, give up trying tobe a good coach to be a great one.
(12:03):
And I was trying and I even remember and I've used this when I've been doing coacheducation and used it as an example and said, I remember somebody saying to me a long time
ago on a programme that I was working on, well, we all love you, you're everybody'sfavourite auntie but...
You know, I can't really put you in front of the big guys, can I?
(12:24):
Because you're not like one of those, you know, what the implication was.
I wasn't one of those tough go-get-em coaches, which around me, everybody seemed to be.
And I know I wasn't, but it sent me into a spin for a couple of years about I'm not goodenough.
You know, you've been there, you were there with me going through that.
(12:47):
I'm not good enough.
I've just got to get tougher.
I've got to start challenging.
And then somebody said to me about, I just see you with these, you know, these big guysthat they just melt because you kind of disarm them.
And so I had to lose this idea that I've got to try and be like that coach and be the bestcoach I could be.
(13:12):
It feels like a bit of a ramble, but it's the back to
Get to know who you are, then you'll be a good coach.
you're describing there, isn't it funny that what we know now that we didn't know then?
exactly.
Because I've heard you tell that story before and as you're telling it today, it makes, itreminds me of the thinking that I'm doing around status.
(13:38):
And I've just written a, in the inside the coaching and sub stack, I've just written apost about status introductions.
And I wonder whether in those spaces you weren't doing status introductions either.
And other people were.
And I observe that if status introductions are important to you, when we don't do them, welook small.
(14:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But actually, it's the...
Hahaha
If we want the people we work with to show up to be themselves then we have to beourselves.
that reminds me, Alison Hodges gave me a great phrase when she was teaching on thesupervision programme and that we run.
(14:28):
And um I've taken it, I've stolen it like a magpie.
It's that how dare we ask anybody else to show themselves, to be vulnerable to do that, ifwe're not willing to do it ourselves.
If I roll up.
with what I think of as my spanks on, you know, all the armour that says, here I am, thisis my background, this is what I've done, this is how clever I am, then that's what I'm
(14:53):
going to be, that's what I'm going to be met with.
I'm not going to see the human.
I was in a, I have to be careful about this story.
I was in a situation a few months ago where...
There were a number of people in the room.
I was not leading, so I was a participant.
(15:17):
Yeah.
one person didn't arrive as a human and everyone else did arrive as a human.
And it was really interesting to be on the, because you can kind of make yourself anobserver there, can't you?
So I was engaged and I was, you know, I was fully joining in, but I was also observingwhat was going on.
(15:39):
And it was just very interesting to observe what was going on from the sidelines as itwere, and to notice how that didn't work with the other people.
um And I was doing a little secret cheer inside.
Going, oh, my little thought experiment is right.
(16:00):
It doesn't work.
exactly.
Exactly.
Karen, Breaking The Coaching Code.
I'm thinking, I was thinking about an egg actually, I just happen to have one here, so I'mgoing to show it to prove that I have weird things on my desk.
(16:21):
You know, if you say breaking an egg, the egg becomes itself by breaking, doesn't it?
Mmm, yeah.
Yeah.
So Breaking The Coaching Code is kind of we get inside.
Exactly, exactly.
And you know what, it was all too much for my spiky brain to get the permission and thecopyright permission to put Leonard Cohen's words in there.
(16:54):
But really, know, from Anthem about ring the bells that still can ring, you know, there'sa crack in everything and that's where the light gets in.
I really wanted to put that in there because it's such an important thing, I think, about,like I say, we're trying to polish up the impurities in ourselves and not realizing that's
(17:24):
the gift, that's the gold, that's what we bring.
So, you know, I know what I bring.
and I've seen it for so long as a, I don't know, something to be overcome instead ofactually that, there you go, that's the thing you bring in and working with Lawrence
(17:47):
Barrett in supervision, he, you know, I love Lawrence's work and how he looks at things,but he just really helped me to see, but that's why people come to you, because they see,
you know,
People are going, I go around with a not good enough constantly.
(18:07):
But for people to be able to say, yeah, I've got that as well.
And I'm still doing stuff.
I'm still having a great life.
I'm still loving life.
All of that, still doing great work.
Work that I love.
Whether I'm doing great work for somebody else, but what I mean is work that's great forme.
I'm doing.
I'm still think I'm not good enough.
(18:28):
So, but that's what.
I thought about it and said, do I want to go to a coach that's perfect and got it allsorted?
And it's like, gosh no, no, I don't want to be there.
I want somebody who can give me some hope that yeah, it's tough.
Yeah.
My last supervisor, Fiona Adamson, we were talking about my imposter syndrome.
(18:54):
And she said to me, so, Claire, would you like to work with somebody who didn't haveimposter syndrome?
And I really made me think about what is it like?
I'm not criticizing people who don't have embolster syndrome, by the way, but for me...
I can't, I need to be with somebody who's not fully formed, sorted, perfect.
(19:23):
And we're not.
And yeah.
So coming back to your lovely...
I'm loving that you're giving me so many plugs for my book!
Lovely listeners, we couldn't get the title right before we started this but anyway it'scalled I've got it written down Breaking The Coaching Code.
So what did you learn as you were writing Karen?
(19:49):
I think the biggest thing I learnt was how much I still have to learn.
The more I started writing, the more I thought, gosh, I want to look at that.
I need to look at that in more depth.
And I was uncovering things, things that I wanted to go off and research and think about.
I still have this little niggle in the back of my mind, a little dream still of doing adoctorate, not for any career aspirations, but just so I could do one.
(20:18):
em But always thinking, well, what's the question that I'd be asking?
But so many questions came up from from doing that to doing that writing.
The other thing I learned was and you know this because you were there.
em I have that lovely spiky ADHD brain that means I can procrastinate until I get the crapenergy.
(20:42):
And em what was really great was when we had our little session of em
Body doubling.
Yeah, I love that.
just you being there, me being here, both writing, both doing, having a little chat andthen back to it.
How much that helped me to actually write down.
(21:03):
I mean, I love writing, but getting to it is really hard.
I've got another book in my, well, more than one, but one in my mind that's there.
I've even put some notes down about what it wants to be.
I need another body doubling session to actually write something down.
oh
words you wrote on that day are now in a final manuscript with the publisher.
(21:25):
The words I wrote on that day are in the bin.
But it was just to get into it.
just yeah, just doing that writing.
know, it's interesting when you were saying about how different we are now from a fewyears ago.
And even I don't know whether you experienced this, but even this book now ready to goout, I'm thinking, oh, now.
(21:54):
I want to put this other stuff I want to put in here.
Did you get that?
Yeah.
I got it.
It's so funny, isn't it?
Because there's a line and you have to submit.
And actually my discipline now is to draw the line before that because my colleagues aregoing to me.
(22:16):
You've got to say anything I learn after today is not going in the book.
And you have to do, so I have to do that now.
So I'm having to do that about the next book kind of now.
Nothing I learned now is going in the book unless it's really, really, really important.
Otherwise I just never kind of can get the flow right.
(22:37):
But the day you submit the manuscript before the type setting, you go, oh, I think that'sjust complete enough.
And then it comes back from the type setting and they go, you can only make this, youcan't hardly make any changes.
And you go, well, I don't think that anymore.
I know, I know, exactly.
(23:00):
And then when it comes back in the box opening ceremony, you go, oh, but I wouldn't havehad that chapter.
I'd have had a different one.
So, Karen, what's the different chapter you'd have had?
I'm not sure if it's a different chapter or just more depth in the ones that I've put inand newer learning to add in and extend the thinking.
(23:31):
I think it's more that than a brand new chapter.
I mean there might be other chapters but it's interesting.
I've got the book and yet I have the box.
I haven't done any of the box opening ceremony because I just think, I don't know what Idon't, anyway.
But where was I going with that?
Yeah, I haven't actually looked in it.
(23:53):
feel it.
I don't know.
I feel a bit nervous about it all.
And I happened to be on, when it arrived, my husband was bringing it into the kitchen andwhere I'm sitting here at the bottom of the garden, I've got windows all across so I can
see what's happening in the kitchen.
I saw these boxes arrive and I was on my own group supervision and I noticed and...
(24:16):
saw them come and I could feel a reaction, I could feel tears and it wasn't a oh what ajoy it was a oh crap I'm actually going to put this out in the world am I now it is that
so I was so scared when it came so I'm a bit scared of it opening it up and seeing likeyou say oh what would I have put in different now feels a bit like
(24:41):
got some webinars lined up to share your new learning, Karen.
The only thing at the moment I've got lined up is we've got a day at Henry Business Schoolwhich you're obviously watching for the weather and whether you can come or not eh but is
a book launch there and before the book launch we're doing a day of because there's threeof us launching our books at the same time so I've just a session there taken from the
(25:06):
book eh but up to now that's all I've got planned.
You and I need to have a different conversation about this.
Awesome tips.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
I've got all sorts of ideas bubbling up that I'd love to offer you.
I won't offer you them here, but I will offer them to you.
(25:28):
Thank you.
I will appreciate that, I'm the world's worst at promoting myself.
I'll promote anybody else to the, you know, to the nth degree, but for myself it's a bit,hmm, hold back.
Because yeah, and the book world is interesting because we have to talk about it.
(25:50):
So today as we're recording, it was the Business Book Awards last night.
And only one of them has told me what happened.
We had five people from The Coaching Inn, five guests at The Coaching Inn wereshortlisted.
And I'm...
All I want to know, I really, really want to know, but what I learned when I went to theBusiness Book Awards last year was just how much promotion we need to do for our own
(26:21):
books.
Because even if they're in bookshops, you know, we need to talk about them and we need totalk to people who are going to talk about them.
Yeah.
Because you're saying something really important because I would love next time somebodysays to me, I love your books because they're the only coaching books I understand.
(26:44):
I'd love them to say there are only three coaching books I understand.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
yours and Breaking The Coaching Code because because what I love about what you've writtenis it's really easy to read and it's got some really fantastic nuggets all the way through
(27:07):
and nuggets are what change the world aren't they not I mean I'm not saying I'm notdissing theory
But if I read a book that's really theoretical, I'll go, that's really interesting, or,oh, that's really challenging, or, that's something to think about.
But actually, if I read a nugget, I can use that today.
(27:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that will change things for me and it will change things for the person I'm workingwith.
So what a wonderful thing.
Keep going.
Yeah, think that's so true and I love, I've always loved stories.
(27:51):
In fact, fairy stories saved me when I was feeling really scared and vulnerable when I wasyoung and I'd just put a fairy book in front of me, know, so I couldn't see anything else,
could just see the book.
So books have been so important.
yes, of course, like you, can read the theory, I can read the academic books, but theydon't grip me.
(28:12):
what grips me is a story em and so that's what I wanted to write in this book, more of astory of this, kind of the story of how we do this thing that we do or how we live it
because it's not really a doing is it, how we live this thing that we do and I thinkyou're right, absolutely, you and I went, I mean you took me through my MCC mentoring and
(28:39):
which was fab and em
I still remember and still repeat little stories or little nuggets that you gave me.
And other people, you know, it's just that nugget that comes and I think, oh yeah, that'sthe thing.
And I can hold on to that where, you know, I'll lose interest.
(29:00):
My brain will not hang on to the deep stuff.
And I've always thought of that as a, again, as a failing.
because I know a lot about a lot of stuff, a little bit about a lot of stuff.
And I know that, but don't test me right underneath the, well, somebody said this isright, know, theory says this is right.
(29:21):
There were some theories, of course, that I remember really well, but others, I justthink, no, but that's the nugget of it.
That's the spirit of it.
You know, and even, go on.
because the real question is...
what difference is this going to make or how can this be useful?
(29:42):
or not.
Somebody told me a lovely story in the last few days about in supervision they'd sharedwith the person they were coaching their latest favourite piece of learning.
because they're on a course.
And this person is self-aware enough to have laughed at themselves and gone.
(30:06):
So they just stared at me.
Mm.
then jumped into making meaning from their own learning, which is a much better place tobe.
But you know, there are so many myths, aren't there, in the coaching profession about youdon't need any training at all.
(30:29):
It's just a conversation.
Well, that's very expensive.
It's not going to make any difference.
Or you've got to do it this way and you've got to add value by showing how knowledgeableyou are.
And that's so much pressure on coaches and I notice that coaches are so busy trying torecall the thing they're trying to demonstrate they are going to add value with that they
(30:54):
completely lose.
It's like of everything.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't know whether it's something new.
Well, I'm sure you'll have seen it such a lot.
I mean, I consider myself a really hard worker in life.
I mean, I procrastinate all of that stuff, but I work hard.
(31:15):
I have worked hard all my life.
But the one thing I don't work hard in is coaching.
And what I see is people working really hard.
And I think that's the thing I say more than anything, you're working too hard, you'redoing too much.
And I think it is like you say, looking for the powerful question.
(31:35):
And somebody reminded me the day, you know, what I've written in the book is, the questionwill find you.
If you're present, if you're listening with curiosity, the question appears.
You don't have to go looking for a powerful question.
And that is one of the...
One of the little stories I always share when I'm doing mentoring groups from our timetogether, when I was being mentored by you, and I said, you know, don't worry about the
(32:06):
question.
I remember so well, we were listening to my recording and we'd got the chat box open and Iasked some questions, I don't know what the question was, and you put in the chat box,
terrible question.
And I put in, yeah, I know I'm really embarrassed.
And you said,
but mastery because you just left it and that was really helpful because it was a terriblequestion and there was no oh let me just give you a better question let me do it was just
(32:36):
crap that was rubbish in my mind let it go yeah
but they picked up all the terrible bits and made them into something really very, verygolden.
Exactly.
And I think that's it.
Like you say, these myths that people think that's not allowed.
This is needed.
(32:58):
That's needed.
I mean, I, I don't know.
Sometimes my coaching, yeah, sometimes it's not, it wouldn't fit into those barriers, butis it what the person needs that's opposite with me, whatever?
Yeah, seems to be.
But know, Karen, I think that often the recordings that I listen to of the people who saythis can't be even vaguely in the rails, they usually are, but they're just not dot to
(33:29):
dot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
their freeform art, but they're still in the style of, and I was with a group this week, Ican't remember the context, but I said to them, if you're going to coach like that, you
(33:53):
might as well let somebody have a bot.
They might as well go to an AI bot.
Yeah.
because it's technically perfect and it's not connecting enough and you're not saying whatyou notice and it just all feels a bit duly diligent.
(34:19):
Yeah, and that's something I'd briefly talk about in the book that exactly that, you know,there's all this talk in the coaching profession about AI and what AI is going to do and
all of that.
And my honest view on that, Claire, is a lot of coaches will lose their business and losebecause if you're not doing something beyond what the bots can do, we're already seeing
(34:46):
they can do it better.
Yeah they can!
go into the performance coaching, like, this is what you want, where are you now, how areyou going to get there, the bots will do it better, cheaper, more conveniently, lots
better.
So a lot of coaches will fall out, I think, that's just my prediction.
(35:08):
They'll fall out of this if they're not doing something beyond that, because why wouldanybody pay for coaching from a human?
If it's just, need to do this, how am going to do it?
They'll find a way.
So I think there's that.
something I just, something you said earlier that just comes back to me around this ideaof you can't learn this stuff quickly.
(35:35):
And, know, when you were saying to me about mastery, why it started really making mereflect on it, I started thinking about...
how do I do that?
How do I, you know, because I was leading the programs at the time at Henley, how do I dothat and make it more mastery from the beginning?
So I really had to think about it and I came to a place of, do you know, there is a timeand a place at the beginning of coaching where you do have to learn the rules, if you
(36:04):
like.
We have to learn the rules.
I know it always gets, it's misquoted, I don't think it was the Dalai Lama that says it,but about learn...
rules effectively, know, so you can break them effectively.
But you do need to, there is a time of learning the rules, but there's got to be a timewhere you step beyond that.
(36:25):
And one of the influences in this, from this book was Richard Rohr.
And I know you and I have talked about him before, how much I love, we love Richard Rohr.
But when Richard Rohr talked about it from a spiritual point of view, he was saying, youknow, first half of life, like young
eh first half of life, yeah of course you learn the rules, you learn how to be successful,you learn how to do whatever.
(36:47):
But in his book Falling Upwards, there's a fall, there's something that happens and thatmight be in life, might be redundancy and loss or whatever.
In coaching I'd start to think what would be the fall and I thought there's got to be atime where you go, is this it?
Is this as much as I can do?
I'm not getting any further or you might start losing clients because they all go to theAI.
(37:11):
whatever the fault is, and I'm not sure what it is yet, but there's a point where we haveto make a decision.
Am I going to just do follow these rules as they say?
And like you say, you can do a technically sound coaching conversation.
And I'm not saying that's wrong.
I'm just saying it's not going to take you any deeper.
(37:33):
Yeah.
So yeah.
so many things.
You and I need to have another conversation in a year's time.
Now you've surfaced that question.
Because I think that now you've said that, because I've never thought about that, becauseI love that bit about falling over in Richard Raw.
But I've always thought about it in as about being in life.
(37:54):
But now you've said it can be about being in coaching that that's that is a reallyinteresting thing just to observe.
Can I just pick up on the it has to be more than the box?
Yeah.
That doesn't mean more stuff.
Just, I know you mean that, I'm just saying that for our lovely audience.
It doesn't mean more stuff.
(38:15):
It doesn't mean another tool, another technique.
No, absolutely not.
It's being, I would say, just off the top of my head, it's being more present.
Being more present.
Being open to, like you were saying about, open to noticing, open to trusting yourself.
(38:38):
There's something else I always say to people about, you know, this idea of cultivatingtrust and safety, it's how do you cultivate trust in yourself as a coach?
to trust that I'm feeling something here or I'm noticing something and having the courageto offer that.
Yeah, I've just written a little note below the line.
(39:04):
Say more.
It's this can't go into the current book.
or I'll be shocked.
eh It's the difference between I see and this is what I think about what I see.
Yeah.
or this is what I'm curious about.
(39:26):
Sorry, I do hate that word.
um Because we want them to be curious, So Karen, as people read your lovely book, Breakingthe Coaching Code.
Or cracking it, we don't care!
I feel like it's like we're getting points, so we're mentioning the title.
(39:47):
Oh, look, we've done it 10 times.
Lovely listeners.
Maybe we'll award a prize for the people who can say how many times we've done it.
How about, are you willing to send a copy to the person who can tell us how many times yousaid it?
(40:08):
the thought, oh we're so synced, that's the thought that went through my mind.
The first person that comes to you and says it was this many times gets the book.
But that means somebody's got to count them.
I can get AI to count them because sometimes AI is useful.
hahahaha
So the question is, lovely people, how many times have we said Breaking The Coaching Codein this podcast in full?
(40:38):
Email your answer.
Karen, how can they contact you?
at info@thecoachtribe.com
info@thecoachtribe.com how many times have we said by the end of this episode Breaking TheCoaching Code and the first person with the answer gets a free copy of the book i can't
(40:59):
remember what now we've finished that game what were we uh
you were going to come out with something really profound.
You said, now that you've completed the Breaking The Coaching Code.
What is the number one thing you want to be different for people when they read it?
(41:22):
I want them to acknowledge or what's the right word or see their own wisdom, notice theirown or their own unique coaching.
Yeah, because it's different.
(41:43):
I've always thought I can't be a second rate Claire.
I want to be a first rate me.
And so what's the first rate you?
as a coach is what I'd really love that people by the end think, oh, that's me, becausethere's reflections as you go through to help you do that.
And I'd really like them to get to that place so that, you know, I think there's somethingabout this coaching profession of ours, it cannot be stagnant.
(42:09):
We've got to evolve.
You know, the other question I'm asking myself at the moment and want to actually exploreeven more is what's this, what's the space between
coaching and these other interventions, for example therapy.
What's that space?
Because I think there's a space there that we haven't got a name for.
(42:30):
Well, that's a completely different conversation, isn't it?
Because I'm really bothered about some things at the moment.
So lots of coaches are investing in parts work, for example, so that they can chargepeople coaching rates to do parts work when they haven't many of coaches who are learning
to do parts work haven't got the underpinning underpinning of that.
(42:55):
to charge more than a therapist who's had many, years of depth of training in using thesethings and is much more able to be artful about using them, who charges a lot less.
Yeah, yeah, whole, whole of the host of stories and conversations in there.
(43:17):
So Breaking The Coaching Code out now.
If you'd like a signed copy, I recommend a signed copy because it's so lovely, I think, tohave a human write something.
I love signing copies.
We sell signed copies of all our books from the office and I've got a signing pen and...
(43:39):
invested in one of those.
It always feels like I'm just joining in somebody's journey a little bit as I write thething.
I love it.
So if you'd like a signed copy of Breaking the Coaching Code, then go to Karen's website.
TheCoachTribe.com but it's not up yet so info@TheCoachTribe.com is the place for now.
(44:07):
okay.
If you'd like a signed copy of the book, email info@thecoachtribe.com.
uh And Karen will work out how you can do that.
And that's where you can talk to Karen about stuff.
So thank you so much, Karen.
Thank you, this has just been a delight for early morning delight.
(44:31):
a lovely early morning chat, dive deep and you know, really good luck with the book andenjoy reading it, lovely listeners.
And we will be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
And just a reminder, as you're listening, it would be lovely for us to know where in theworld you are.
So do pop us a note in comments on whatever app, whatever thing you're listening to on, orsend us an email to info@3dcoaching.com and say, I listen to The Coaching Inn and I live
(00:37):
in wherever.
It'd be lovely to hear that.
Today we have a guest from the UK who is a friend of mine and who honoured me, us, by uhhosting the launch of the last book, The Human Behind the Coach, in the virtual Coaching
Inn didn't you, Karen?
(00:58):
I did, yes, it was lovely.
So, uh welcome Karen Foy, who finally, and you've finally written the book when I keptwriting the book you wanted to write.
I was saying that to somebody the other day every time Claire wrote about it I was likethat's the book I wanted to write so I thought I'd better get off my backside and do one.
(01:21):
m
And what a great book it is, because I've read a version of it and it's delightful.
So Karen, just what got you into coaching?
And then we'll talk about.
Yeah, what got me into coaching?
I was saying to somebody recently, it was by accident.
(01:41):
don't know whether a lot people do that, but it was by accident.
I was working in the NHS, working nationally for the NHS.
I went on this programme, Creativity, Innovation and Change with Open University.
I went on a summer school.
You had to choose which tutors and things.
There were these two guys who were talking about this thing called coaching.
(02:03):
But as I was listening I thought, that's what I do when I'm supposed to be working.
sneaking and having conversations with my co-workers and you know they'd ring, oh I'mstruggling with this so I thought oh that's interesting.
So I went, I asked them well where did you learn this stuff and they told me so I went offand did my first coaching.
(02:27):
So I stayed, I stayed in my job or different jobs within NHS but was doing that on theside and absolutely loved it.
So for a while it took me before I
jumped and thought I'll do this full time.
Yeah, so that's how I got into it purely by accident.
didn't know what the heck it was what it was supposed to be and what it was called.
(02:50):
thinking something inside and I don't know whether to say it or not.
go on.
Why don't you?
oh
I really get that and you have de-institutionalised yourself.
Ooh, tell me more.
Well, I didn't know what sector you'd come from.
(03:15):
And there's a way people, you know, in lots of organisational sectors, there are wayspeople lead and you can kind of get a sense this person comes from, you know, the
not-for-profit or the corporate or the multinational or the small or the public sector orwhatever.
But I would not have had you down for the NHS.
How interesting.
(03:37):
And you know what's interesting as well, when you said the not-for-profit, I spent a lotof time working in as a community action.
So I worked in a lot in the voluntary sector and interestingly, although eons ago, whenFlo Nightingale was a girl, I was working as a nurse, but that was many, many years ago.
(04:00):
And I think I'd be, well, I think I was dangerous then, I think I'd be even more dangerousnow, but.
I, when I sort of broke out from that, I went off and did a psychology degree and cameback and then I started working in community action.
So I led a team and we worked very much in getting patient voices in NHS, em in policy.
(04:25):
And so that's what I was doing in the NHS, out of the clinical role, keeping everybodysafe, but just getting patients' voices into the NHS.
So, yeah, so that was...
So I did both, so non-government did some time advising in the Department of Health as acomment, but NHS, yeah.
(04:46):
So yeah, there's a surprise,
Yeah, but you're talking there about lots of listening, aren't you?
Listening to patients, listening to co-workers, ah all of those things.
So I apologize for writing your first two books.
Well, I'm glad you did, because you did a marvellous job.
(05:08):
I loved both of them and still, you know, still been looking, as you know, at one of yournew editions.
Yeah.
thank you so much.
So, tell us about your third book then.
Yes, because I do own those as well, you know, I feel like I co-own those.
uh Yeah.
(05:30):
Yeah.
I like the rebellion in there.
Yeah, or cracking the code, who knows?
em Yeah, there is, well, you know, I'm a little bit nervous and thinking, is it asrebellious as it could be?
Because it doesn't feel it now to me, it doesn't feel rebellious.
It feels like where you and I have been talking a long time around, you know what it'slike.
(05:53):
I started writing this book thinking about all of the people that I mentor or work withwho...
I've got this idea that, a phrase I hear a lot is, well, is that all right?
What would the ICF police think?
And you know, I thought, my gosh, this is just getting in everybody's way of being thegreat coaches I can hear behind that.
(06:17):
How can we free them up?
So it was a bit, you know, I worried when I first started writing it, is this just arepeat of the Gilman behind the coach?
Because it's kind of the same idea of.
How can we just free up people's internal wisdom?
And it doesn't mean rebellious as in, you know, breaking the codes not about, or let'sjust trash those.
(06:44):
It's just, let's stop thinking of them as these rules that so many myths have grown uparound them.
I don't know whether you've noticed that.
This is not allowed, that's not allowed.
Who says?
It's not allowed.
And I listened to a recording the other day with someone and they said, I want to get myMCC.
(07:07):
So for those of you who are not, who come from no coaching tribe or other coaching tribes,that's the top, see the International Coaching Federation, it's the top credential.
And they said, I don't think my coaching style will fit.
So I said, okay, let's listen.
Of it fitted.
(07:28):
They need to do some, they need to tighten some things up, but the tightening up is themdoing what they're doing even better, rather than them doing what they think someone else
is doing.
Can we just stay with Rebel for a bit?
Because as you're talking, I'm thinking, you and I have had these conversations for anumber of years now.
(07:52):
And I think that we are...
When we're together, I observe that we actually see how we perceive stuff as being quitenormal and therefore it doesn't feel very rebellious.
But I also notice that when you or I...
talk simply to groups of people or to individuals, it's quite radical.
(08:18):
Yes!
Yeah.
And that makes me sad, actually.
Where do you think the sadness is coming from?
Because I agree and I'm just wondering where yours comes from.
(08:38):
I think there's a huge pressure to tell people they need to know a lot.
teach it to them very fast.
dot not leave time for them to embed it.
and then tell them that they're coaching at a certain level.
(09:00):
So I'm thinking about accredited programs.
So they push people out, accreditation ready for the level, for the second level ofaccreditation, when actually they probably haven't done a huge amount of work and they
haven't integrated it.
So it's like, you and I both have interesting ways of processing things.
(09:22):
Yes.
But there's something about, you know, teaching somebody to do something and then whenthey start implementing it over time, they can't remember because they learned so much.
And the sadness is the myth that you need a lot and you need it quickly.
(09:47):
And I would say for me, you need a little bit and you need it slowly.
Yeah.
And then you can add things in when they are really going to be useful.
Yeah, that's really, uh it's really interesting because it's something you and I spokequite a few years ago and you said something that's kind of one of the seeds of this book.
(10:14):
You said something to me about at 3D Coaching we teach mastery from the start and
really challenged me for a while because I was thinking what is this teaching, what'sdifferent about teaching mastery from the start and so it really made me, you know, I
really had to think about it and really reflect on it for a long time and like you're justsaying now it's not just teaching stuff from the start it's the way of being from the
(10:49):
start and I think you're right
We teach the stuff, whatever the stuff is, we teach the competencies and when you do itlike this and you do it like that.
But I think there's something about the being from the start and that's part of what I'mdoing in this book is the first part of it is not about, particularly about coaching, but
(11:13):
about yourself and who you are.
Again, the human behind the coach, but just from a different take about just reflecting onwhat is it that you're bringing.
Because one of the things that I see in mentoring quite a lot is when people are trying tostick to these rules and trying to implement the stuff they've been learned, they forget
(11:36):
their unique gift and who they are.
And we're all different, aren't we?
You you and I are different coaches, but it's what we bring.
So it's almost like I know for a long time, I tried to rub out what I was.
to be what I thought was a good coach.
And I think of our mutual friend Aboudi in this where he says, you know, give up trying tobe a good coach to be a great one.
(12:03):
And I was trying and I even remember and I've used this when I've been doing coacheducation and used it as an example and said, I remember somebody saying to me a long time
ago on a programme that I was working on, well, we all love you, you're everybody'sfavourite auntie but...
You know, I can't really put you in front of the big guys, can I?
(12:24):
Because you're not like one of those, you know, what the implication was.
I wasn't one of those tough go-get-em coaches, which around me, everybody seemed to be.
And I know I wasn't, but it sent me into a spin for a couple of years about I'm not goodenough.
You know, you've been there, you were there with me going through that.
(12:47):
I'm not good enough.
I've just got to get tougher.
I've got to start challenging.
And then somebody said to me about, I just see you with these, you know, these big guysthat they just melt because you kind of disarm them.
And so I had to lose this idea that I've got to try and be like that coach and be the bestcoach I could be.
(13:12):
It feels like a bit of a ramble, but it's the back to
Get to know who you are, then you'll be a good coach.
you're describing there, isn't it funny that what we know now that we didn't know then?
exactly.
Because I've heard you tell that story before and as you're telling it today, it makes, itreminds me of the thinking that I'm doing around status.
(13:38):
And I've just written a, in the inside the coaching and sub stack, I've just written apost about status introductions.
And I wonder whether in those spaces you weren't doing status introductions either.
And other people were.
And I observe that if status introductions are important to you, when we don't do them, welook small.
(14:02):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But actually, it's the...
Hahaha
If we want the people we work with to show up to be themselves then we have to beourselves.
that reminds me, Alison Hodges gave me a great phrase when she was teaching on thesupervision programme and that we run.
(14:28):
And um I've taken it, I've stolen it like a magpie.
It's that how dare we ask anybody else to show themselves, to be vulnerable to do that, ifwe're not willing to do it ourselves.
If I roll up.
with what I think of as my spanks on, you know, all the armour that says, here I am, thisis my background, this is what I've done, this is how clever I am, then that's what I'm
(14:53):
going to be, that's what I'm going to be met with.
I'm not going to see the human.
I was in a, I have to be careful about this story.
I was in a situation a few months ago where...
There were a number of people in the room.
I was not leading, so I was a participant.
(15:17):
Yeah.
one person didn't arrive as a human and everyone else did arrive as a human.
And it was really interesting to be on the, because you can kind of make yourself anobserver there, can't you?
So I was engaged and I was, you know, I was fully joining in, but I was also observingwhat was going on.
(15:39):
And it was just very interesting to observe what was going on from the sidelines as itwere, and to notice how that didn't work with the other people.
um And I was doing a little secret cheer inside.
Going, oh, my little thought experiment is right.
(16:00):
It doesn't work.
exactly.
Exactly.
Karen, Breaking The Coaching Code.
I'm thinking, I was thinking about an egg actually, I just happen to have one here, so I'mgoing to show it to prove that I have weird things on my desk.
(16:21):
You know, if you say breaking an egg, the egg becomes itself by breaking, doesn't it?
Mmm, yeah.
Yeah.
So Breaking The Coaching Code is kind of we get inside.
Exactly, exactly.
And you know what, it was all too much for my spiky brain to get the permission and thecopyright permission to put Leonard Cohen's words in there.
(16:54):
But really, know, from Anthem about ring the bells that still can ring, you know, there'sa crack in everything and that's where the light gets in.
I really wanted to put that in there because it's such an important thing, I think, about,like I say, we're trying to polish up the impurities in ourselves and not realizing that's
(17:24):
the gift, that's the gold, that's what we bring.
So, you know, I know what I bring.
and I've seen it for so long as a, I don't know, something to be overcome instead ofactually that, there you go, that's the thing you bring in and working with Lawrence
(17:47):
Barrett in supervision, he, you know, I love Lawrence's work and how he looks at things,but he just really helped me to see, but that's why people come to you, because they see,
you know,
People are going, I go around with a not good enough constantly.
(18:07):
But for people to be able to say, yeah, I've got that as well.
And I'm still doing stuff.
I'm still having a great life.
I'm still loving life.
All of that, still doing great work.
Work that I love.
Whether I'm doing great work for somebody else, but what I mean is work that's great forme.
I'm doing.
I'm still think I'm not good enough.
(18:28):
So, but that's what.
I thought about it and said, do I want to go to a coach that's perfect and got it allsorted?
And it's like, gosh no, no, I don't want to be there.
I want somebody who can give me some hope that yeah, it's tough.
Yeah.
My last supervisor, Fiona Adamson, we were talking about my imposter syndrome.
(18:54):
And she said to me, so, Claire, would you like to work with somebody who didn't haveimposter syndrome?
And I really made me think about what is it like?
I'm not criticizing people who don't have embolster syndrome, by the way, but for me...
I can't, I need to be with somebody who's not fully formed, sorted, perfect.
(19:23):
And we're not.
And yeah.
So coming back to your lovely...
I'm loving that you're giving me so many plugs for my book!
Lovely listeners, we couldn't get the title right before we started this but anyway it'scalled I've got it written down Breaking The Coaching Code.
So what did you learn as you were writing Karen?
(19:49):
I think the biggest thing I learnt was how much I still have to learn.
The more I started writing, the more I thought, gosh, I want to look at that.
I need to look at that in more depth.
And I was uncovering things, things that I wanted to go off and research and think about.
I still have this little niggle in the back of my mind, a little dream still of doing adoctorate, not for any career aspirations, but just so I could do one.
(20:18):
em But always thinking, well, what's the question that I'd be asking?
But so many questions came up from from doing that to doing that writing.
The other thing I learned was and you know this because you were there.
em I have that lovely spiky ADHD brain that means I can procrastinate until I get the crapenergy.
(20:42):
And em what was really great was when we had our little session of em
Body doubling.
Yeah, I love that.
just you being there, me being here, both writing, both doing, having a little chat andthen back to it.
How much that helped me to actually write down.
(21:03):
I mean, I love writing, but getting to it is really hard.
I've got another book in my, well, more than one, but one in my mind that's there.
I've even put some notes down about what it wants to be.
I need another body doubling session to actually write something down.
oh
words you wrote on that day are now in a final manuscript with the publisher.
(21:25):
The words I wrote on that day are in the bin.
But it was just to get into it.
just yeah, just doing that writing.
know, it's interesting when you were saying about how different we are now from a fewyears ago.
And even I don't know whether you experienced this, but even this book now ready to goout, I'm thinking, oh, now.
(21:54):
I want to put this other stuff I want to put in here.
Did you get that?
Yeah.
I got it.
It's so funny, isn't it?
Because there's a line and you have to submit.
And actually my discipline now is to draw the line before that because my colleagues aregoing to me.
(22:16):
You've got to say anything I learn after today is not going in the book.
And you have to do, so I have to do that now.
So I'm having to do that about the next book kind of now.
Nothing I learned now is going in the book unless it's really, really, really important.
Otherwise I just never kind of can get the flow right.
(22:37):
But the day you submit the manuscript before the type setting, you go, oh, I think that'sjust complete enough.
And then it comes back from the type setting and they go, you can only make this, youcan't hardly make any changes.
And you go, well, I don't think that anymore.
I know, I know, exactly.
(23:00):
And then when it comes back in the box opening ceremony, you go, oh, but I wouldn't havehad that chapter.
I'd have had a different one.
So, Karen, what's the different chapter you'd have had?
I'm not sure if it's a different chapter or just more depth in the ones that I've put inand newer learning to add in and extend the thinking.
(23:31):
I think it's more that than a brand new chapter.
I mean there might be other chapters but it's interesting.
I've got the book and yet I have the box.
I haven't done any of the box opening ceremony because I just think, I don't know what Idon't, anyway.
But where was I going with that?
Yeah, I haven't actually looked in it.
(23:53):
feel it.
I don't know.
I feel a bit nervous about it all.
And I happened to be on, when it arrived, my husband was bringing it into the kitchen andwhere I'm sitting here at the bottom of the garden, I've got windows all across so I can
see what's happening in the kitchen.
I saw these boxes arrive and I was on my own group supervision and I noticed and...
(24:16):
saw them come and I could feel a reaction, I could feel tears and it wasn't a oh what ajoy it was a oh crap I'm actually going to put this out in the world am I now it is that
so I was so scared when it came so I'm a bit scared of it opening it up and seeing likeyou say oh what would I have put in different now feels a bit like
(24:41):
got some webinars lined up to share your new learning, Karen.
The only thing at the moment I've got lined up is we've got a day at Henry Business Schoolwhich you're obviously watching for the weather and whether you can come or not eh but is
a book launch there and before the book launch we're doing a day of because there's threeof us launching our books at the same time so I've just a session there taken from the
(25:06):
book eh but up to now that's all I've got planned.
You and I need to have a different conversation about this.
Awesome tips.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
I've got all sorts of ideas bubbling up that I'd love to offer you.
I won't offer you them here, but I will offer them to you.
(25:28):
Thank you.
I will appreciate that, I'm the world's worst at promoting myself.
I'll promote anybody else to the, you know, to the nth degree, but for myself it's a bit,hmm, hold back.
Because yeah, and the book world is interesting because we have to talk about it.
(25:50):
So today as we're recording, it was the Business Book Awards last night.
And only one of them has told me what happened.
We had five people from The Coaching Inn, five guests at The Coaching Inn wereshortlisted.
And I'm...
All I want to know, I really, really want to know, but what I learned when I went to theBusiness Book Awards last year was just how much promotion we need to do for our own
(26:21):
books.
Because even if they're in bookshops, you know, we need to talk about them and we need totalk to people who are going to talk about them.
Yeah.
Because you're saying something really important because I would love next time somebodysays to me, I love your books because they're the only coaching books I understand.
(26:44):
I'd love them to say there are only three coaching books I understand.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
yours and Breaking The Coaching Code because because what I love about what you've writtenis it's really easy to read and it's got some really fantastic nuggets all the way through
(27:07):
and nuggets are what change the world aren't they not I mean I'm not saying I'm notdissing theory
But if I read a book that's really theoretical, I'll go, that's really interesting, or,oh, that's really challenging, or, that's something to think about.
But actually, if I read a nugget, I can use that today.
(27:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that will change things for me and it will change things for the person I'm workingwith.
So what a wonderful thing.
Keep going.
Yeah, think that's so true and I love, I've always loved stories.
(27:51):
In fact, fairy stories saved me when I was feeling really scared and vulnerable when I wasyoung and I'd just put a fairy book in front of me, know, so I couldn't see anything else,
could just see the book.
So books have been so important.
yes, of course, like you, can read the theory, I can read the academic books, but theydon't grip me.
(28:12):
what grips me is a story em and so that's what I wanted to write in this book, more of astory of this, kind of the story of how we do this thing that we do or how we live it
because it's not really a doing is it, how we live this thing that we do and I thinkyou're right, absolutely, you and I went, I mean you took me through my MCC mentoring and
(28:39):
which was fab and em
I still remember and still repeat little stories or little nuggets that you gave me.
And other people, you know, it's just that nugget that comes and I think, oh yeah, that'sthe thing.
And I can hold on to that where, you know, I'll lose interest.
(29:00):
My brain will not hang on to the deep stuff.
And I've always thought of that as a, again, as a failing.
because I know a lot about a lot of stuff, a little bit about a lot of stuff.
And I know that, but don't test me right underneath the, well, somebody said this isright, know, theory says this is right.
(29:21):
There were some theories, of course, that I remember really well, but others, I justthink, no, but that's the nugget of it.
That's the spirit of it.
You know, and even, go on.
because the real question is...
what difference is this going to make or how can this be useful?
(29:42):
or not.
Somebody told me a lovely story in the last few days about in supervision they'd sharedwith the person they were coaching their latest favourite piece of learning.
because they're on a course.
And this person is self-aware enough to have laughed at themselves and gone.
(30:06):
So they just stared at me.
Mm.
then jumped into making meaning from their own learning, which is a much better place tobe.
But you know, there are so many myths, aren't there, in the coaching profession about youdon't need any training at all.
(30:29):
It's just a conversation.
Well, that's very expensive.
It's not going to make any difference.
Or you've got to do it this way and you've got to add value by showing how knowledgeableyou are.
And that's so much pressure on coaches and I notice that coaches are so busy trying torecall the thing they're trying to demonstrate they are going to add value with that they
(30:54):
completely lose.
It's like of everything.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I don't know whether it's something new.
Well, I'm sure you'll have seen it such a lot.
I mean, I consider myself a really hard worker in life.
I mean, I procrastinate all of that stuff, but I work hard.
(31:15):
I have worked hard all my life.
But the one thing I don't work hard in is coaching.
And what I see is people working really hard.
And I think that's the thing I say more than anything, you're working too hard, you'redoing too much.
And I think it is like you say, looking for the powerful question.
(31:35):
And somebody reminded me the day, you know, what I've written in the book is, the questionwill find you.
If you're present, if you're listening with curiosity, the question appears.
You don't have to go looking for a powerful question.
And that is one of the...
One of the little stories I always share when I'm doing mentoring groups from our timetogether, when I was being mentored by you, and I said, you know, don't worry about the
(32:06):
question.
I remember so well, we were listening to my recording and we'd got the chat box open and Iasked some questions, I don't know what the question was, and you put in the chat box,
terrible question.
And I put in, yeah, I know I'm really embarrassed.
And you said,
but mastery because you just left it and that was really helpful because it was a terriblequestion and there was no oh let me just give you a better question let me do it was just
(32:36):
crap that was rubbish in my mind let it go yeah
but they picked up all the terrible bits and made them into something really very, verygolden.
Exactly.
And I think that's it.
Like you say, these myths that people think that's not allowed.
This is needed.
(32:58):
That's needed.
I mean, I, I don't know.
Sometimes my coaching, yeah, sometimes it's not, it wouldn't fit into those barriers, butis it what the person needs that's opposite with me, whatever?
Yeah, seems to be.
But know, Karen, I think that often the recordings that I listen to of the people who saythis can't be even vaguely in the rails, they usually are, but they're just not dot to
(33:29):
dot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
their freeform art, but they're still in the style of, and I was with a group this week, Ican't remember the context, but I said to them, if you're going to coach like that, you
(33:53):
might as well let somebody have a bot.
They might as well go to an AI bot.
Yeah.
because it's technically perfect and it's not connecting enough and you're not saying whatyou notice and it just all feels a bit duly diligent.
(34:19):
Yeah, and that's something I'd briefly talk about in the book that exactly that, you know,there's all this talk in the coaching profession about AI and what AI is going to do and
all of that.
And my honest view on that, Claire, is a lot of coaches will lose their business and losebecause if you're not doing something beyond what the bots can do, we're already seeing
(34:46):
they can do it better.
Yeah they can!
go into the performance coaching, like, this is what you want, where are you now, how areyou going to get there, the bots will do it better, cheaper, more conveniently, lots
better.
So a lot of coaches will fall out, I think, that's just my prediction.
(35:08):
They'll fall out of this if they're not doing something beyond that, because why wouldanybody pay for coaching from a human?
If it's just, need to do this, how am going to do it?
They'll find a way.
So I think there's that.
something I just, something you said earlier that just comes back to me around this ideaof you can't learn this stuff quickly.
(35:35):
And, know, when you were saying to me about mastery, why it started really making mereflect on it, I started thinking about...
how do I do that?
How do I, you know, because I was leading the programs at the time at Henley, how do I dothat and make it more mastery from the beginning?
So I really had to think about it and I came to a place of, do you know, there is a timeand a place at the beginning of coaching where you do have to learn the rules, if you
(36:04):
like.
We have to learn the rules.
I know it always gets, it's misquoted, I don't think it was the Dalai Lama that says it,but about learn...
rules effectively, know, so you can break them effectively.
But you do need to, there is a time of learning the rules, but there's got to be a timewhere you step beyond that.
(36:25):
And one of the influences in this, from this book was Richard Rohr.
And I know you and I have talked about him before, how much I love, we love Richard Rohr.
But when Richard Rohr talked about it from a spiritual point of view, he was saying, youknow, first half of life, like young
eh first half of life, yeah of course you learn the rules, you learn how to be successful,you learn how to do whatever.
(36:47):
But in his book Falling Upwards, there's a fall, there's something that happens and thatmight be in life, might be redundancy and loss or whatever.
In coaching I'd start to think what would be the fall and I thought there's got to be atime where you go, is this it?
Is this as much as I can do?
I'm not getting any further or you might start losing clients because they all go to theAI.
(37:11):
whatever the fault is, and I'm not sure what it is yet, but there's a point where we haveto make a decision.
Am I going to just do follow these rules as they say?
And like you say, you can do a technically sound coaching conversation.
And I'm not saying that's wrong.
I'm just saying it's not going to take you any deeper.
(37:33):
Yeah.
So yeah.
so many things.
You and I need to have another conversation in a year's time.
Now you've surfaced that question.
Because I think that now you've said that, because I've never thought about that, becauseI love that bit about falling over in Richard Raw.
But I've always thought about it in as about being in life.
(37:54):
But now you've said it can be about being in coaching that that's that is a reallyinteresting thing just to observe.
Can I just pick up on the it has to be more than the box?
Yeah.
That doesn't mean more stuff.
Just, I know you mean that, I'm just saying that for our lovely audience.
It doesn't mean more stuff.
(38:15):
It doesn't mean another tool, another technique.
No, absolutely not.
It's being, I would say, just off the top of my head, it's being more present.
Being more present.
Being open to, like you were saying about, open to noticing, open to trusting yourself.
(38:38):
There's something else I always say to people about, you know, this idea of cultivatingtrust and safety, it's how do you cultivate trust in yourself as a coach?
to trust that I'm feeling something here or I'm noticing something and having the courageto offer that.
Yeah, I've just written a little note below the line.
(39:04):
Say more.
It's this can't go into the current book.
or I'll be shocked.
eh It's the difference between I see and this is what I think about what I see.
Yeah.
or this is what I'm curious about.
(39:26):
Sorry, I do hate that word.
um Because we want them to be curious, So Karen, as people read your lovely book, Breakingthe Coaching Code.
Or cracking it, we don't care!
I feel like it's like we're getting points, so we're mentioning the title.
(39:47):
Oh, look, we've done it 10 times.
Lovely listeners.
Maybe we'll award a prize for the people who can say how many times we've done it.
How about, are you willing to send a copy to the person who can tell us how many times yousaid it?
(40:08):
the thought, oh we're so synced, that's the thought that went through my mind.
The first person that comes to you and says it was this many times gets the book.
But that means somebody's got to count them.
I can get AI to count them because sometimes AI is useful.
hahahaha
So the question is, lovely people, how many times have we said Breaking The Coaching Codein this podcast in full?
(40:38):
Email your answer.
Karen, how can they contact you?
at info@thecoachtribe.com
info@thecoachtribe.com how many times have we said by the end of this episode Breaking TheCoaching Code and the first person with the answer gets a free copy of the book i can't
(40:59):
remember what now we've finished that game what were we uh
you were going to come out with something really profound.
You said, now that you've completed the Breaking The Coaching Code.
What is the number one thing you want to be different for people when they read it?
(41:22):
I want them to acknowledge or what's the right word or see their own wisdom, notice theirown or their own unique coaching.
Yeah, because it's different.
(41:43):
I've always thought I can't be a second rate Claire.
I want to be a first rate me.
And so what's the first rate you?
as a coach is what I'd really love that people by the end think, oh, that's me, becausethere's reflections as you go through to help you do that.
And I'd really like them to get to that place so that, you know, I think there's somethingabout this coaching profession of ours, it cannot be stagnant.
(42:09):
We've got to evolve.
You know, the other question I'm asking myself at the moment and want to actually exploreeven more is what's this, what's the space between
coaching and these other interventions, for example therapy.
What's that space?
Because I think there's a space there that we haven't got a name for.
(42:30):
Well, that's a completely different conversation, isn't it?
Because I'm really bothered about some things at the moment.
So lots of coaches are investing in parts work, for example, so that they can chargepeople coaching rates to do parts work when they haven't many of coaches who are learning
to do parts work haven't got the underpinning underpinning of that.
(42:55):
to charge more than a therapist who's had many, years of depth of training in using thesethings and is much more able to be artful about using them, who charges a lot less.
Yeah, yeah, whole, whole of the host of stories and conversations in there.
(43:17):
So Breaking The Coaching Code out now.
If you'd like a signed copy, I recommend a signed copy because it's so lovely, I think, tohave a human write something.
I love signing copies.
We sell signed copies of all our books from the office and I've got a signing pen and...
(43:39):
invested in one of those.
It always feels like I'm just joining in somebody's journey a little bit as I write thething.
I love it.
So if you'd like a signed copy of Breaking the Coaching Code, then go to Karen's website.
TheCoachTribe.com but it's not up yet so info@TheCoachTribe.com is the place for now.
(44:07):
okay.
If you'd like a signed copy of the book, email info@thecoachtribe.com.
uh And Karen will work out how you can do that.
And that's where you can talk to Karen about stuff.
So thank you so much, Karen.
Thank you, this has just been a delight for early morning delight.
(44:31):
a lovely early morning chat, dive deep and you know, really good luck with the book andenjoy reading it, lovely listeners.
And we will be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
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