November 12, 2025 • 36 mins
Carmen Sederino joins Claire Pedrick to share her journey from a shy child to someone who trains leaders to do brilliant keynotes. This episode is for you if you’re thinking about how you use storytelling in spoken and written word. Hear about her own career shift from a corporate role to founding Illuminated Story, where she helps leaders and professionals enhance their public speaking skills through staging.
- Storytelling can transform both the audience and the storyteller.
- Public speaking is a skill anyone can learn.
- Theatrical elements enhance public speaking.
- Pauses in speech can create impact.
- Tailor your energy to the audience size.
- Sales and coaching require different approaches.
- Your story is your unique selling point.
- Filming yourself can improve public speaking skills.
Check out
https://www.youtube.com/@illuminatedstory1665
https://www.instagram.com/illuminatedstory/
Contact:
- Contact Carmen through Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/public-speaking-coach-presentation-skills/
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
Further Information:
- Subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
- Find out more about 3D Coaching and get new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Quiet Catalyst - Embracing Introversion
- And watch out for an episode in December : The Power of Eldership in Coaching with Bob Singha
Keywords:
Carmen Sederino, storytelling, public speaking, leadership, transformation, stage performance, corporate career, Illuminated Story, theatrical elements, audience engagement, personal growth, professional development, communication skills, keynote speaking, public speaking tips, storytelling techniques, leadership coaching, presentation skills, audience connection, storytelling power
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
One of the things that I hear from you most often is the pain of having to talk about yourwork as well as doing it, as well as doing the coaching and how there seems to be this
dissonance between what we do in the coaching room and what we do in the selling,marketing, pitching space.
(00:26):
So absolutely delighted today to have someone who knows all about those things and we'regoing to listen to her talking about how we communicate our message so people hear and
respond.
We're going to hear Carmen's take on whether you coach from the sales pitch or whether youdon't and how we stand out in a crowded marketplace because I know one of the things I
(00:49):
hear every single day from you is the market is saturated.
So, listen in and there's lots to learn as Carmen Sederino talks about her way of tellingstories and there's some really good stuff in here.
So if you're on dog walk, make sure, well you've got your phone with you, make sure you'reready to put some notes on your phone and we'd love to hear what you think.
(01:17):
So do ping us an email at info@3dcoaching.com and share your learning.
(01:37):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
Today I'm joined by Carmen Sederino from Melbourne, Australia, ah who does all sorts offun things with stories.
Carmen, welcome!
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here Claire.
That's great to have you.
So let's dive straight in.
(01:58):
How did you get to do what you do now?
well, it's a big story.
Let me tell you, it started, if I pair it all together, it started when I was very little,so bear with me.
I was a very shy child, uh but surprisingly loved being on stage.
So that all started when my mum enrolled me in a calisthenics class when I was about fiveyears old.
(02:24):
and I really enjoyed going each week and learning dance routines and all the rest of it.
And then there was an interview concept and my mum thought there is no way that Carmen isgoing to get up on that stage.
And if she does, I'm probably gonna have to catch her side stage as she runs off crying.
But that is not what happened.
I got up there and just shone and loved every moment.
(02:47):
I was waving and smiling at the audience and just felt completely at home.
So a few years later, I think I was about eight years old, we actually moved towns and Ienrolled in a local theater company and we would do a couple of productions a year.
Sorry, my voice is going on me.
em We would do a couple of productions a year and my teachers would sometimes see the showbecause we would travel it to local schools.
(03:15):
And they would say to my parents, my goodness, I cannot believe that is Carmen up on thestage.
She's the quiet child.
back of the classroom and yet get her up here and she's this big character with a bigvoice.
Just excuse me for a minute.
Luckily we're in the pub because I need to take a drink of water.
(03:45):
Goodness me.
Sorry about that everybody.
Okay, so let me go back.
So I'm up on stage and my teachers cannot believe it's me because I'm the shy child at theback of the classroom.
I just, had this love of theater and I went on to study formally.
(04:06):
So I studied at Monash University in Melbourne, which is one of our major universitieshere in Australia.
And I did a bachelor of performing arts with honors.
and we learnt all about acting, studied theatre, studied the writers.
We learnt backstage, the lighting, the sound, all the things.
And I ended up staying on after I finished my bachelor's degree and did my honours year.
(04:31):
And in my honours year for my thesis, I wrote a theatre show and then produced it,directed it, put it on, acted in it, all the things, cast it.
And then for my thesis report, I had to write about all the decisions I'd made.
So why were the characters the way they were?
Why was it written that way?
(04:51):
Why was the lighting that way at that moment?
Why did you design the set that way?
Why did you bring sound in?
Why did you have multimedia elements?
And I got a high distinction for that thesis.
So was very happy with myself and absolutely loved the project in general.
Now, if I park that for a moment,
At the same time, I had a part-time job just to earn money.
(05:14):
And I also had studied acting for camera and got myself an agent and was trying to getacting work.
And when I finished my degree, my boss in the retail shop said, can you work for us fulltime?
And I said, no, no, I can't do that.
I need to keep my day free for auditions.
And she said, well, what about if...
(05:35):
I let you go on auditions when your agent gets them and other than that, you can work forus full time.
So I said, okay, great deal.
It means I don't have to keep my days free and waitress at nighttime or anything likethat.
So I did that.
And 18 and a half years later, I was still at that corporate company.
I'd worked my way up into a head office role, into a state role where I looked after allof the, we called them showrooms in Victoria.
(06:03):
I would teach customer service, I would teach sales and basically coach and make sure thatall of our shops were consistent and at a high standard for customers.
And then I went on and became the national manager of that team.
So I would coach staff to do the job I was doing and looked after the whole of Australiaand into New Zealand.
(06:24):
And now the company is also actually in America.
So while I was there for 18 and a half years and I was running the national team, I alsostudied marketing because my role, even though the company was quite large, it had a
separate training department that I worked very closely with, my role actually fell undermarketing.
So I became the brand manager of their bathroom portfolio near the end of my career, whichwas about a $300 million portfolio.
(06:51):
and had the experience of traveling to China and visiting factories with our buyers.
We would create our own brands with our creative agency and we would pitch overseas forbrands to distribute exclusively in the Australian marketplace, as well as a lot of
companies would pitch to us to distribute their products.
(07:11):
So I saw a lot of bad, good, in between pitches and I would coach my team on
how to train new staff, how to stand up, deliver two weeks worth of classroom trainingback then, it was before e-learning existed, to stand up at state meetings, to speak in
(07:31):
front of people that were more senior than them.
And what I saw was that over time, they became so much more confident within themselves,they were seen as a leader in their role, and they often progressed into senior management
within the organization because of this skill of public speaking.
that they'd learnt.
(07:52):
So I told you it was a long story.
About seven years ago, I decided to leave that very, very safe corporate job and jump intomy own business.
And that's when Illuminated Story was born.
So at Illuminated Story, we've always had the mission of helping people light up from theinside.
So I saw so many smart people who were so incredible and capable, but they just couldn't.
(08:18):
express their message to groups of people in a way that had people buying in and made themwant to follow.
So that's what I've been doing for the last seven years.
I've been helping some corporate groups, a lot of leaders, CEOs, MDs, GMs, who haveactually been asked to move from the boardroom to the stage, I call it, because they're
(08:39):
being asked to speak at industry events and conferences.
normally kicking and screaming because they don't want to do it, but they want to lookgood if they are going to do it and they want to be good if they are going to do it.
And most recently, I've started partnering with keynote speakers and thought leaders whoreally want to be on the world stage.
And we're pairing traditional keynote speaking with theatrical elements to really create aheightened performance that just gives the audience an incredible experience.
(09:10):
So that's the story.
Where do we go?
Let's start with the end and then work backwards.
What does that look like?
What does the keynote and the theatrical combined look like?
Well, to be honest, it's different for different clients.
(09:31):
It's completely bespoke.
So let me give you a couple of examples.
There's a man I'm working with at the moment from Miami and he has run Miami's largestluxury catering company for over 50 years now.
He has a book called Plating Up Profits and we are taking that book to the stage.
(09:51):
So for his concept,
after working with him for a little while and interviewing him, I decided to create a fivecourse meal where we share the five course meal with the audience.
And it's metaphorical.
Of course, each meal is a different lesson in business because he has incredible storiesand an incredible experience to share with his audiences.
(10:15):
So there'll be a course on sales and marketing, for instance, and then there'll be acourse on leadership and a course on risk.
and we tell different stories from his lifetime and he's got some pretty amazing storiesbecause his company had the pleasure of serving four US presidents, John Paul Pope II,
(10:35):
copious amounts of celebrities from movie stars to sports stars like Michael Jordan andTiger Woods and um Reese Witherspoon, Jerry Seinfeld, the list just continues to go on.
So we've had lots of great content to play with.
um And so for him, the theatrics, I guess you'd say come in, in extremely richstorytelling.
(10:59):
I think in corporate land, people that learn presentation skills are told you need to tellstories and they do inject some stories into their talk.
The stories that we're crafting, I would say it's like a Hollywood movie or a Broadwayshow in terms of the crafting of the story and the emotions that we want the audience to
(11:19):
feel.
And then depending on the venue, we're bringing in elements like lighting that can make adifference to how you feel as an audience member, how the mood is set.
uh We might bring in music or an underscore every now and then that again does somethingsimilar.
And of course the theatrics are also in the fact that he's like, all right, so for courseone, know, get your napkins out and we're about to do this and have a little bit of fun
(11:48):
with it.
On the other end of the scale, I'm coaching a professional rugby coach who's based inSouth Africa and he is still practicing.
So he's still a professional rugby coach.
He was a professional rugby player.
He's also incredibly smart.
He's studied organizational psychology and has a master's in it.
(12:08):
And he's already working with corporates on topics like um cohesive teams and highperformance.
So we actually have three keynotes we're going to write, but the one we've nearly finishedthat he's about to launch is about high performance.
And he has a tragic story where his father was murdered in apartheid South Africa when hewas only seven years old.
(12:30):
And that really set the scene for him being what we call an A player where adversityhappens to you.
And it happened to him multiple times through his life to date.
He's not really old or anything right now, but so far.
um
and how he's overcome that and how he's continued to thrive and create this incrediblecareer for himself and now his family.
(12:55):
So again, we're using very rich storytelling and I know you said it was all about storiesat the very beginning of our discussion today.
And to put people, for instance, in the town back in 1980s South Africa,
we'll use rather than just straight PowerPoint for instance, it might be a cinematic stylevideo with again, an underscore that sort of brings you back to that feeling of what the
(13:26):
town in, I'm doing italics now for anyone that's not watching us and is just listening tous back in black South Africa.
They call it black, color or white over there.
And yeah, which was very different to
white South Africa.
being able to immerse the audience in the scene, I guess you'd say, in a more heightenedway than what I would call a standard keynote is what we're trying to achieve at
(13:55):
Eliminated Story.
Nice.
So that, I'm guessing, obviously not everyone that is listening is going to do a talkwhere they're going to have a tech team uh and all those other nice things.
But, but as you're, as you're speaking, one of the things I observe is that actuallyknowing why you're telling the story and which bits of the story are the bits of the story
(14:19):
that need to be heard sounds like it's really important.
It's so important and look, I do still work with people in corporate land.
um And one of the things that's really interesting because normally I'll only take a smallgroup because I really, I'm just so passionate about people getting a transformation.
And with public speaking, you need to actually do it to experience the transformation.
(14:44):
So I can teach all the theory in the world and it can actually sound really easy, all thetheory to be honest.
When you try and execute it, that's when the rubber hits the road.
I'll be working with a leadership team, for instance, I'll only take a group of six.
And some of the leaders that come through will say to me, ah, because nowadays to get intoleadership roles, you often have to go through an interview process that includes a
(15:09):
presentation.
And they might ask you to present on why are you going to be a great leader?
You know, what does leadership mean to you?
Topics like that.
And
I'll have people that will come through who may be just missed out and the company'sputting them through to help them so they can get the role next time because they see a
lot of opportunity in that person still.
(15:31):
They see that they're going to be great in the future.
And I'll always remember one man that came through said, I was going to tell a story aboutmy nonna because I really saw her as the leader of the family.
And I thought her leadership style was beautiful.
because of the way she would bring people together, but she'd be strong when she needs to.
(15:51):
And he just started talking.
I said, yes, tell us that, include that in your presentation.
And what he'd done was a very standard, this is why I should get the job.
This is my experience in the role.
These are the people I've managed.
This is what they've said about me.
But as soon as he started talking about his noner and what leadership meant to him and howit just...
(16:14):
came through his veins in that way in some sense.
Everyone in the room was captivated and you could have heard a pin drop because everyonewas so in.
And of course he had to add some of the other elements into the uh presentation as well.
But this was the hook.
This was the bit that was going to set him apart against anyone else because no one elsehas that story.
(16:37):
Your story is completely yours.
It doesn't matter that you that's how you can become unique in those sorts of situationsby really diving in and telling your story.
And I think there's so many people that just think their story is boring, uh not thatinteresting.
But human stories are interesting.
(16:58):
We just find them fascinating.
And so don't underestimate your story is what I would say to your audience.
Yeah, and when we tell them in an interesting way and people get enough of the story toconnect.
Yes, absolutely.
You really need to set the scene.
So you need to put us in the scenario before the event happens is the way I'd describe it.
(17:20):
Put us in the scenario and describe enough for us to be in.
So you might describe what something was smelling like, or you might describe, you know, Iwas at the beach and I could smell the salt air and the wind was really cold and crisp.
And so put us in the scene.
(17:41):
and describe what's happening before you describe the moment or the thing or the eventthat you wanna take us to.
And then make sure you tell us what happens after that.
Cause normally the event is sort of the transformation or the core reason why you'retelling the story.
And then we need to know what comes after that.
(18:01):
So from a very simple framework point of view, that helps a lot of clients.
Nice because one of the things that I noticed with coaches, so a lot of our listeners arecoaches, is two things.
One is how do I stand out in a crowded marketplace, which you've sort of talked about, andthe other one is selling myself or talking about myself or pitching and doing the work are
(18:31):
like two completely different people.
Haha, yes.
and how do we manage those two together?
I wonder what your thoughts are on that Carmen?
Well, uh so I did a lot of sales training actually when I was in my corporate role for 18years.
I learned from an amazing man from Scotland actually, and who's based in the UK, Scottishbased in the UK.
(18:58):
And he had this incredible sense of humor and Scottish accent, which he got away with alot of things because of, anyway, I digress.
uh So yes, I did sales for a long time and now running my own business, which includes alot of
coaching, I realized that I was lucky that I had had to learn sales and that I had to sellwhen I was in that corporate business because I think as a coach, your natural, your
(19:27):
strongest abilities are to make people feel really comfortable and to then help themtransform through whatever system it is that you're taking them through.
and that
type of behavior is often quite different to the behavior type of an extremely greatsalesperson.
(19:47):
uh Because the extremely great salesperson normally has that more do or die type behavior.
uh They will jump over anyone to get the sale type behavior, but the coach wants to makeeveryone feel good.
So they've got completely different behavior styles.
So I would say
(20:08):
The other thing that coaches, so the coaches need to stop coaching on sales calls.
And I've been guilty of this as well in the past for sure.
Instead of coaching on the sales call, you need to show them what's going to be possibleor what is life going to look like when you finished coaching them.
So what is the transformation thereafter?
(20:31):
What do you know you can get them because you've done it so many times before with yourclients?
Stick to that.
in the sales call and don't be afraid to ask for the sale.
Don't beat around the bush and um wait for them to buy because buyers like being asked tobuy.
And I think about myself shopping sometimes and especially retail shopping when it'sprobably something I don't need, but I want, I want the salesperson to talk me into it
(21:00):
because it's how I justify that it's okay for me to buy it.
Hahaha
So it's okay for you to sell and to try and talk people into it.
And if we loop back to stories again, a story is a really powerful way for you to sell ina less direct way and more powerful often than direct selling.
(21:21):
So if you can even talk through a case study of someone else that's similar, you youremind me of Joe, who I coached through X, Y, Z, and he really struggled with ABC to start
with, but after going through
my framework called Blah, he got these results.
I really believe that that's what could happen for you.
(21:43):
So I think definitely taking off your coaching hat, but telling stories through casestudies can be powerful for coaches when they're selling.
interesting because we've had other guests on who've said the opposite they've said use itlike a you know like show them what it feels like to be coached yeah
(22:08):
okay.
Yeah, I think, well, I mean, it's just my opinion and I'm sure that there's examples ofboth working.
Yeah, I think sometimes you can give too much coaching away and then the person doesn'tthink they need to buy from you because they've already got what they wanted or needed.
Yeah.
(22:28):
So there's a risk of how far you go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really interested because there's an ethical thing, isn't there?
In in culture we can't guarantee results.
And you dropped a really interesting line into the end of the ABC Joe thing that you justsaid.
Because you said, and that could be, you said something like, that could be what you get.
(22:54):
what you could achieve.
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, as you said, you can't guarantee the future because the other part of coaching isthe effort that the coachee puts in and you're not in control of that.
That used to frustrate me.
One of my mentors and coaches said to me once, cause I was um really digging in and tryingto give people extra free sessions and all sorts of stuff to try and get them the results.
(23:24):
because I was so focused on them getting the result and I knew they could get it.
But what was happening is they weren't doing the work in between sessions.
And my coach said to me one day, Carmen, it is not your responsibility to get them theresult if they are not putting in the work.
You're giving them everything they need and you're there for them.
But if they're not going to put in the work in between, that is not your responsibility.
(23:49):
And that was really hard for me to take on board.
I knew it was right, but I so wanted them to get the result.
can't, so yeah, you can't guarantee it because you can't control what they will or won'tdo with what you're advising.
So there's something about dropping them in the story or telling them rather than justtelling them the story and of course that's exactly what you've done with us today.
(24:21):
I have noticed!
We travelled with you, didn't we, from 5 to 21.
So by the time you got to the next bit, we knew you a bit.
So, yeah, thank you for that beautiful example.
(24:42):
That's okay.
And I think it's nice for people to know that I was shy as a child and I was introvertedbecause most people that watch others on stage that are highly effective up on the stage
would just assume that they're an extrovert or that they like being the center ofattention.
And that was completely the opposite to me.
(25:04):
I loved being on stage, but I did not ever want to be the center of attention off stageand I wasn't an extrovert.
So it does, and I've coached so many people who are not extroverts and that are in quitetechnical roles and are absolute geniuses, but their genius is not in how they get up and
speak naturally in front of people.
What I would say though is this is absolutely a skillset that you can learn.
(25:28):
And if you're smart enough to be an engineer or an accountant or whatever it is you mightbe, you're smart enough to learn how to be an amazing public speaker.
It's just gonna take.
time and effort like anything does that you're learning and conviction and a want from youto want to do it.
(25:49):
and you could do it on your own or you could do it with somebody else.
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
I think it depends how fast you want to go.
So obviously, if you do it with someone else that knows what they're doing, they can guideyou faster and identify things quicker that are going to shift where you're at.
If you're going to do it by yourself, please film yourself.
(26:10):
You need to actually watch yourself and see what's happening.
And when I film clients, for instance, even in the group corporate programs that I do,
They get so surprised and I'll say to them, because I just filmed them on their phones nowand they get the footage and no one else has to see it.
I'll say, please watch it because the way you feel right now and the way you're comingacross the two different things, people in the room that have just watched you are telling
(26:37):
you that was incredible and you're feeling like you've been way too big for, you know,whatever it is you're saying.
But at the moment for us, you're so engaging.
So I need you to watch what you were doing beforehand and what you're doing now and seehow powerful it is.
And then keep practicing to get comfortable with how that feels for you when you're upthere.
(26:59):
So yes, if you're going to do it yourself, film yourself, watch it back.
I always say watch it once to get over yourself and then watch it again to actually learn.
Cause none of us like watching ourselves on camera, which is fair enough.
But we say that to coaches as well because we don't know what's happening unless we see itbecause otherwise we only get the feedback from the other person, which is confusing.
(27:21):
uh Real observable data matters, doesn't it?
It absolutely does, yes.
It can be quite different to what you think it is in the moment.
Yeah, yeah, as you were talking about introverts, it reminded me, have you seen the SusanCain Ted video?
No, I don't think I have.
I'll have to write that down.
(27:41):
What does she talk about?
Kane wrote the book Quiet, so she's an introvert and she writes about being an introvert.
And if you watch the video on TED, I think it's called Quiet or something like that.
She, she is out there.
(28:02):
And then there's a second in the middle, just a second where she pauses and you can kindof see her going inside herself, regrouping and coming back out for part two.
Wow, okay, interesting.
And it's just a tiny, tiny moment.
(28:23):
And I think that's just a beautiful symbol really of humanity and how we can do what weneed to do personally, as I don't want to be out there so much.
can regroup ourselves and we can do that storytelling thing at the same time.
(28:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the pause was probably, I'll have to watch the video, a really great moment for theaudience as well, whether they picked up on what you'd picked up on or not.
A lot of clients will think that their pauses are too long or that they're doing enoughpauses when they're not, because it can feel like, you know, five minutes to you when it's
(29:13):
30 seconds for the audience and
And it actually gives really lovely brain breaks for the audience to just reflect on whatyou've said and um really take it in before the next moment.
And it also, it bookmarks, I call it moments that you're speaking about rather thaneverything just sort of blending into one.
(29:35):
We need to take the audience on a journey and pauses can really help with thatbookmarking.
I'll have to check out that Ted talk though, it sounds amazing.
Yeah, it was was hardly any time at all, but I'm interested about longer breaks and I'mgoing back to your your story about the five course man.
Yes.
(29:57):
So what were you interested in with the...
sure that he has breaks.
You said a lot of different things, all of which I thought were really interesting.
So one of them was the thing about almost marking the chapters of what you're saying.
And that made me think about him doing that.
(30:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, I call them signature moments when when I'm talking about the keynote shows, the bigones that we were talking about.
Yeah, creating signature moments in the show because your audience can only remember somuch at once as well.
So if you can find, as you said, little chapters or little bookmarks within the overallshow, and obviously it all flows together in some way, shape or form, then
(30:42):
that's a really digestible way for people to remember what was said in the keynote.
So it's almost like we've got little mini Netflix episodes in the one live show and yousee, you know, course one, as we said, and we are calling it, okay, so for your entree, da
(31:02):
da da da da, now course one too, and we do dessert for the finale.
And yes, he absolutely,
we're actually rehearsing it at the moment.
So there is absolutely longer pauses between each course or signature moment.
And then of course there's pauses within stories within those signature moments as well.
(31:25):
So yes, the pause, this is a great way to think about it actually for your audience.
Think about music.
So I always think about epic songs like Whitney Houston's, Will Always Love You forinstance.
There's this huge pause in the middle of the song.
where it crescendos and then it's pause, drum beat, and then she does the really big noteafter it.
(31:49):
If that pause wasn't there, it would sound completely different to how it does now.
And classical music, if you played a piece of classical music on the piano and didn't addthe pauses, the whole melody would be different.
And speaking's the same.
If we think about
(32:10):
adding those pauses in at the right moments, it can absolutely highlight a key point andthat goes for executives in boardrooms and small presentations as well.
And um it can add drama and suspense and then also help audiences reflect on what you'vesaid.
Absolutely and actually all the things you've just said about music and pausing andcadence also apply in a coaching conversation as much as they do in a presentation.
(32:40):
And we talk about that in the Human Behind the Coach book because there's something about,I think there's a lot to be learned about conversations.
You're talking about big conversations with an audience but also conversations one-to-one.
We can learn a lot from music.
Hmm.
That's so interesting that that's in your book.
(33:02):
I love that.
Yes.
And you definitely can.
And I think, even when it comes to presenting, if we think about presentations can be tojust a couple of people in a small meeting room, up to hundreds of thousands of people in
big stadiums.
And the moments that you have to create all the
(33:24):
pauses or cadence that you need can be quite dramatically different based on the scenarioand the proximity that you are to the audience.
So I always talk about energy in those instances and I'll say to a client, if youperformed the same, presented the same in a small meeting with a couple of people as you
(33:49):
did in front of 15,000 on a large stage, you'd be
really boring on that large stage.
And vice versa, if you did what's required on the large stage in the small meeting roomwith the board or with a couple of people, they'd think you're crazy.
uh It's not gonna work in that setting.
(34:09):
So you've got to match your energy to the size of the space and the size of the audienceto make it fit wherever you are.
Wise words.
Thank you Carmen so much for coming and sharing about stories.
Absolute pleasure.
(34:30):
It's been such a lovely conversation.
I feel very calm.
It's actually uh after 5pm in Australia.
as I said to you earlier, I could have had my wine sitting here and that would have beenlovely.
But you needed your cup of tea.
It's too early for you.
We have had a guest bring their wine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(34:52):
I wasn't quick enough with that.
Didn't bring my prop.
See, I should have brought my prop.
Yeah I should have warned you in advance.
So how do people get in touch with you to find out more Carmen?
They can go to illuminatedstory.com and I am also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
um LinkedIn is probably the one I'm on the most, all under Illuminated Story.
(35:19):
Brilliant and we'll put those in the show notes.
So thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn and thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
One of the things that I hear from you most often is the pain of having to talk about yourwork as well as doing it, as well as doing the coaching and how there seems to be this
dissonance between what we do in the coaching room and what we do in the selling,marketing, pitching space.
(00:26):
So absolutely delighted today to have someone who knows all about those things and we'regoing to listen to her talking about how we communicate our message so people hear and
respond.
We're going to hear Carmen's take on whether you coach from the sales pitch or whether youdon't and how we stand out in a crowded marketplace because I know one of the things I
(00:49):
hear every single day from you is the market is saturated.
So, listen in and there's lots to learn as Carmen Sederino talks about her way of tellingstories and there's some really good stuff in here.
So if you're on dog walk, make sure, well you've got your phone with you, make sure you'reready to put some notes on your phone and we'd love to hear what you think.
(01:17):
So do ping us an email at info@3dcoaching.com and share your learning.
(01:37):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
Today I'm joined by Carmen Sederino from Melbourne, Australia, ah who does all sorts offun things with stories.
Carmen, welcome!
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here Claire.
That's great to have you.
So let's dive straight in.
(01:58):
How did you get to do what you do now?
well, it's a big story.
Let me tell you, it started, if I pair it all together, it started when I was very little,so bear with me.
I was a very shy child, uh but surprisingly loved being on stage.
So that all started when my mum enrolled me in a calisthenics class when I was about fiveyears old.
(02:24):
and I really enjoyed going each week and learning dance routines and all the rest of it.
And then there was an interview concept and my mum thought there is no way that Carmen isgoing to get up on that stage.
And if she does, I'm probably gonna have to catch her side stage as she runs off crying.
But that is not what happened.
I got up there and just shone and loved every moment.
(02:47):
I was waving and smiling at the audience and just felt completely at home.
So a few years later, I think I was about eight years old, we actually moved towns and Ienrolled in a local theater company and we would do a couple of productions a year.
Sorry, my voice is going on me.
em We would do a couple of productions a year and my teachers would sometimes see the showbecause we would travel it to local schools.
(03:15):
And they would say to my parents, my goodness, I cannot believe that is Carmen up on thestage.
She's the quiet child.
back of the classroom and yet get her up here and she's this big character with a bigvoice.
Just excuse me for a minute.
Luckily we're in the pub because I need to take a drink of water.
(03:45):
Goodness me.
Sorry about that everybody.
Okay, so let me go back.
So I'm up on stage and my teachers cannot believe it's me because I'm the shy child at theback of the classroom.
I just, had this love of theater and I went on to study formally.
(04:06):
So I studied at Monash University in Melbourne, which is one of our major universitieshere in Australia.
And I did a bachelor of performing arts with honors.
and we learnt all about acting, studied theatre, studied the writers.
We learnt backstage, the lighting, the sound, all the things.
And I ended up staying on after I finished my bachelor's degree and did my honours year.
(04:31):
And in my honours year for my thesis, I wrote a theatre show and then produced it,directed it, put it on, acted in it, all the things, cast it.
And then for my thesis report, I had to write about all the decisions I'd made.
So why were the characters the way they were?
Why was it written that way?
(04:51):
Why was the lighting that way at that moment?
Why did you design the set that way?
Why did you bring sound in?
Why did you have multimedia elements?
And I got a high distinction for that thesis.
So was very happy with myself and absolutely loved the project in general.
Now, if I park that for a moment,
At the same time, I had a part-time job just to earn money.
(05:14):
And I also had studied acting for camera and got myself an agent and was trying to getacting work.
And when I finished my degree, my boss in the retail shop said, can you work for us fulltime?
And I said, no, no, I can't do that.
I need to keep my day free for auditions.
And she said, well, what about if...
(05:35):
I let you go on auditions when your agent gets them and other than that, you can work forus full time.
So I said, okay, great deal.
It means I don't have to keep my days free and waitress at nighttime or anything likethat.
So I did that.
And 18 and a half years later, I was still at that corporate company.
I'd worked my way up into a head office role, into a state role where I looked after allof the, we called them showrooms in Victoria.
(06:03):
I would teach customer service, I would teach sales and basically coach and make sure thatall of our shops were consistent and at a high standard for customers.
And then I went on and became the national manager of that team.
So I would coach staff to do the job I was doing and looked after the whole of Australiaand into New Zealand.
(06:24):
And now the company is also actually in America.
So while I was there for 18 and a half years and I was running the national team, I alsostudied marketing because my role, even though the company was quite large, it had a
separate training department that I worked very closely with, my role actually fell undermarketing.
So I became the brand manager of their bathroom portfolio near the end of my career, whichwas about a $300 million portfolio.
(06:51):
and had the experience of traveling to China and visiting factories with our buyers.
We would create our own brands with our creative agency and we would pitch overseas forbrands to distribute exclusively in the Australian marketplace, as well as a lot of
companies would pitch to us to distribute their products.
(07:11):
So I saw a lot of bad, good, in between pitches and I would coach my team on
how to train new staff, how to stand up, deliver two weeks worth of classroom trainingback then, it was before e-learning existed, to stand up at state meetings, to speak in
(07:31):
front of people that were more senior than them.
And what I saw was that over time, they became so much more confident within themselves,they were seen as a leader in their role, and they often progressed into senior management
within the organization because of this skill of public speaking.
that they'd learnt.
(07:52):
So I told you it was a long story.
About seven years ago, I decided to leave that very, very safe corporate job and jump intomy own business.
And that's when Illuminated Story was born.
So at Illuminated Story, we've always had the mission of helping people light up from theinside.
So I saw so many smart people who were so incredible and capable, but they just couldn't.
(08:18):
express their message to groups of people in a way that had people buying in and made themwant to follow.
So that's what I've been doing for the last seven years.
I've been helping some corporate groups, a lot of leaders, CEOs, MDs, GMs, who haveactually been asked to move from the boardroom to the stage, I call it, because they're
(08:39):
being asked to speak at industry events and conferences.
normally kicking and screaming because they don't want to do it, but they want to lookgood if they are going to do it and they want to be good if they are going to do it.
And most recently, I've started partnering with keynote speakers and thought leaders whoreally want to be on the world stage.
And we're pairing traditional keynote speaking with theatrical elements to really create aheightened performance that just gives the audience an incredible experience.
(09:10):
So that's the story.
Where do we go?
Let's start with the end and then work backwards.
What does that look like?
What does the keynote and the theatrical combined look like?
Well, to be honest, it's different for different clients.
(09:31):
It's completely bespoke.
So let me give you a couple of examples.
There's a man I'm working with at the moment from Miami and he has run Miami's largestluxury catering company for over 50 years now.
He has a book called Plating Up Profits and we are taking that book to the stage.
(09:51):
So for his concept,
after working with him for a little while and interviewing him, I decided to create a fivecourse meal where we share the five course meal with the audience.
And it's metaphorical.
Of course, each meal is a different lesson in business because he has incredible storiesand an incredible experience to share with his audiences.
(10:15):
So there'll be a course on sales and marketing, for instance, and then there'll be acourse on leadership and a course on risk.
and we tell different stories from his lifetime and he's got some pretty amazing storiesbecause his company had the pleasure of serving four US presidents, John Paul Pope II,
(10:35):
copious amounts of celebrities from movie stars to sports stars like Michael Jordan andTiger Woods and um Reese Witherspoon, Jerry Seinfeld, the list just continues to go on.
So we've had lots of great content to play with.
um And so for him, the theatrics, I guess you'd say come in, in extremely richstorytelling.
(10:59):
I think in corporate land, people that learn presentation skills are told you need to tellstories and they do inject some stories into their talk.
The stories that we're crafting, I would say it's like a Hollywood movie or a Broadwayshow in terms of the crafting of the story and the emotions that we want the audience to
(11:19):
feel.
And then depending on the venue, we're bringing in elements like lighting that can make adifference to how you feel as an audience member, how the mood is set.
uh We might bring in music or an underscore every now and then that again does somethingsimilar.
And of course the theatrics are also in the fact that he's like, all right, so for courseone, know, get your napkins out and we're about to do this and have a little bit of fun
(11:48):
with it.
On the other end of the scale, I'm coaching a professional rugby coach who's based inSouth Africa and he is still practicing.
So he's still a professional rugby coach.
He was a professional rugby player.
He's also incredibly smart.
He's studied organizational psychology and has a master's in it.
(12:08):
And he's already working with corporates on topics like um cohesive teams and highperformance.
So we actually have three keynotes we're going to write, but the one we've nearly finishedthat he's about to launch is about high performance.
And he has a tragic story where his father was murdered in apartheid South Africa when hewas only seven years old.
(12:30):
And that really set the scene for him being what we call an A player where adversityhappens to you.
And it happened to him multiple times through his life to date.
He's not really old or anything right now, but so far.
um
and how he's overcome that and how he's continued to thrive and create this incrediblecareer for himself and now his family.
(12:55):
So again, we're using very rich storytelling and I know you said it was all about storiesat the very beginning of our discussion today.
And to put people, for instance, in the town back in 1980s South Africa,
we'll use rather than just straight PowerPoint for instance, it might be a cinematic stylevideo with again, an underscore that sort of brings you back to that feeling of what the
(13:26):
town in, I'm doing italics now for anyone that's not watching us and is just listening tous back in black South Africa.
They call it black, color or white over there.
And yeah, which was very different to
white South Africa.
being able to immerse the audience in the scene, I guess you'd say, in a more heightenedway than what I would call a standard keynote is what we're trying to achieve at
(13:55):
Eliminated Story.
Nice.
So that, I'm guessing, obviously not everyone that is listening is going to do a talkwhere they're going to have a tech team uh and all those other nice things.
But, but as you're, as you're speaking, one of the things I observe is that actuallyknowing why you're telling the story and which bits of the story are the bits of the story
(14:19):
that need to be heard sounds like it's really important.
It's so important and look, I do still work with people in corporate land.
um And one of the things that's really interesting because normally I'll only take a smallgroup because I really, I'm just so passionate about people getting a transformation.
And with public speaking, you need to actually do it to experience the transformation.
(14:44):
So I can teach all the theory in the world and it can actually sound really easy, all thetheory to be honest.
When you try and execute it, that's when the rubber hits the road.
I'll be working with a leadership team, for instance, I'll only take a group of six.
And some of the leaders that come through will say to me, ah, because nowadays to get intoleadership roles, you often have to go through an interview process that includes a
(15:09):
presentation.
And they might ask you to present on why are you going to be a great leader?
You know, what does leadership mean to you?
Topics like that.
And
I'll have people that will come through who may be just missed out and the company'sputting them through to help them so they can get the role next time because they see a
lot of opportunity in that person still.
(15:31):
They see that they're going to be great in the future.
And I'll always remember one man that came through said, I was going to tell a story aboutmy nonna because I really saw her as the leader of the family.
And I thought her leadership style was beautiful.
because of the way she would bring people together, but she'd be strong when she needs to.
(15:51):
And he just started talking.
I said, yes, tell us that, include that in your presentation.
And what he'd done was a very standard, this is why I should get the job.
This is my experience in the role.
These are the people I've managed.
This is what they've said about me.
But as soon as he started talking about his noner and what leadership meant to him and howit just...
(16:14):
came through his veins in that way in some sense.
Everyone in the room was captivated and you could have heard a pin drop because everyonewas so in.
And of course he had to add some of the other elements into the uh presentation as well.
But this was the hook.
This was the bit that was going to set him apart against anyone else because no one elsehas that story.
(16:37):
Your story is completely yours.
It doesn't matter that you that's how you can become unique in those sorts of situationsby really diving in and telling your story.
And I think there's so many people that just think their story is boring, uh not thatinteresting.
But human stories are interesting.
(16:58):
We just find them fascinating.
And so don't underestimate your story is what I would say to your audience.
Yeah, and when we tell them in an interesting way and people get enough of the story toconnect.
Yes, absolutely.
You really need to set the scene.
So you need to put us in the scenario before the event happens is the way I'd describe it.
(17:20):
Put us in the scenario and describe enough for us to be in.
So you might describe what something was smelling like, or you might describe, you know, Iwas at the beach and I could smell the salt air and the wind was really cold and crisp.
And so put us in the scene.
(17:41):
and describe what's happening before you describe the moment or the thing or the eventthat you wanna take us to.
And then make sure you tell us what happens after that.
Cause normally the event is sort of the transformation or the core reason why you'retelling the story.
And then we need to know what comes after that.
(18:01):
So from a very simple framework point of view, that helps a lot of clients.
Nice because one of the things that I noticed with coaches, so a lot of our listeners arecoaches, is two things.
One is how do I stand out in a crowded marketplace, which you've sort of talked about, andthe other one is selling myself or talking about myself or pitching and doing the work are
(18:31):
like two completely different people.
Haha, yes.
and how do we manage those two together?
I wonder what your thoughts are on that Carmen?
Well, uh so I did a lot of sales training actually when I was in my corporate role for 18years.
I learned from an amazing man from Scotland actually, and who's based in the UK, Scottishbased in the UK.
(18:58):
And he had this incredible sense of humor and Scottish accent, which he got away with alot of things because of, anyway, I digress.
uh So yes, I did sales for a long time and now running my own business, which includes alot of
coaching, I realized that I was lucky that I had had to learn sales and that I had to sellwhen I was in that corporate business because I think as a coach, your natural, your
(19:27):
strongest abilities are to make people feel really comfortable and to then help themtransform through whatever system it is that you're taking them through.
and that
type of behavior is often quite different to the behavior type of an extremely greatsalesperson.
(19:47):
uh Because the extremely great salesperson normally has that more do or die type behavior.
uh They will jump over anyone to get the sale type behavior, but the coach wants to makeeveryone feel good.
So they've got completely different behavior styles.
So I would say
(20:08):
The other thing that coaches, so the coaches need to stop coaching on sales calls.
And I've been guilty of this as well in the past for sure.
Instead of coaching on the sales call, you need to show them what's going to be possibleor what is life going to look like when you finished coaching them.
So what is the transformation thereafter?
(20:31):
What do you know you can get them because you've done it so many times before with yourclients?
Stick to that.
in the sales call and don't be afraid to ask for the sale.
Don't beat around the bush and um wait for them to buy because buyers like being asked tobuy.
And I think about myself shopping sometimes and especially retail shopping when it'sprobably something I don't need, but I want, I want the salesperson to talk me into it
(21:00):
because it's how I justify that it's okay for me to buy it.
Hahaha
So it's okay for you to sell and to try and talk people into it.
And if we loop back to stories again, a story is a really powerful way for you to sell ina less direct way and more powerful often than direct selling.
(21:21):
So if you can even talk through a case study of someone else that's similar, you youremind me of Joe, who I coached through X, Y, Z, and he really struggled with ABC to start
with, but after going through
my framework called Blah, he got these results.
I really believe that that's what could happen for you.
(21:43):
So I think definitely taking off your coaching hat, but telling stories through casestudies can be powerful for coaches when they're selling.
interesting because we've had other guests on who've said the opposite they've said use itlike a you know like show them what it feels like to be coached yeah
(22:08):
okay.
Yeah, I think, well, I mean, it's just my opinion and I'm sure that there's examples ofboth working.
Yeah, I think sometimes you can give too much coaching away and then the person doesn'tthink they need to buy from you because they've already got what they wanted or needed.
Yeah.
(22:28):
So there's a risk of how far you go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm really interested because there's an ethical thing, isn't there?
In in culture we can't guarantee results.
And you dropped a really interesting line into the end of the ABC Joe thing that you justsaid.
Because you said, and that could be, you said something like, that could be what you get.
(22:54):
what you could achieve.
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, as you said, you can't guarantee the future because the other part of coaching isthe effort that the coachee puts in and you're not in control of that.
That used to frustrate me.
One of my mentors and coaches said to me once, cause I was um really digging in and tryingto give people extra free sessions and all sorts of stuff to try and get them the results.
(23:24):
because I was so focused on them getting the result and I knew they could get it.
But what was happening is they weren't doing the work in between sessions.
And my coach said to me one day, Carmen, it is not your responsibility to get them theresult if they are not putting in the work.
You're giving them everything they need and you're there for them.
But if they're not going to put in the work in between, that is not your responsibility.
(23:49):
And that was really hard for me to take on board.
I knew it was right, but I so wanted them to get the result.
can't, so yeah, you can't guarantee it because you can't control what they will or won'tdo with what you're advising.
So there's something about dropping them in the story or telling them rather than justtelling them the story and of course that's exactly what you've done with us today.
(24:21):
I have noticed!
We travelled with you, didn't we, from 5 to 21.
So by the time you got to the next bit, we knew you a bit.
So, yeah, thank you for that beautiful example.
(24:42):
That's okay.
And I think it's nice for people to know that I was shy as a child and I was introvertedbecause most people that watch others on stage that are highly effective up on the stage
would just assume that they're an extrovert or that they like being the center ofattention.
And that was completely the opposite to me.
(25:04):
I loved being on stage, but I did not ever want to be the center of attention off stageand I wasn't an extrovert.
So it does, and I've coached so many people who are not extroverts and that are in quitetechnical roles and are absolute geniuses, but their genius is not in how they get up and
speak naturally in front of people.
What I would say though is this is absolutely a skillset that you can learn.
(25:28):
And if you're smart enough to be an engineer or an accountant or whatever it is you mightbe, you're smart enough to learn how to be an amazing public speaker.
It's just gonna take.
time and effort like anything does that you're learning and conviction and a want from youto want to do it.
(25:49):
and you could do it on your own or you could do it with somebody else.
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
I think it depends how fast you want to go.
So obviously, if you do it with someone else that knows what they're doing, they can guideyou faster and identify things quicker that are going to shift where you're at.
If you're going to do it by yourself, please film yourself.
(26:10):
You need to actually watch yourself and see what's happening.
And when I film clients, for instance, even in the group corporate programs that I do,
They get so surprised and I'll say to them, because I just filmed them on their phones nowand they get the footage and no one else has to see it.
I'll say, please watch it because the way you feel right now and the way you're comingacross the two different things, people in the room that have just watched you are telling
(26:37):
you that was incredible and you're feeling like you've been way too big for, you know,whatever it is you're saying.
But at the moment for us, you're so engaging.
So I need you to watch what you were doing beforehand and what you're doing now and seehow powerful it is.
And then keep practicing to get comfortable with how that feels for you when you're upthere.
(26:59):
So yes, if you're going to do it yourself, film yourself, watch it back.
I always say watch it once to get over yourself and then watch it again to actually learn.
Cause none of us like watching ourselves on camera, which is fair enough.
But we say that to coaches as well because we don't know what's happening unless we see itbecause otherwise we only get the feedback from the other person, which is confusing.
(27:21):
uh Real observable data matters, doesn't it?
It absolutely does, yes.
It can be quite different to what you think it is in the moment.
Yeah, yeah, as you were talking about introverts, it reminded me, have you seen the SusanCain Ted video?
No, I don't think I have.
I'll have to write that down.
(27:41):
What does she talk about?
Kane wrote the book Quiet, so she's an introvert and she writes about being an introvert.
And if you watch the video on TED, I think it's called Quiet or something like that.
She, she is out there.
(28:02):
And then there's a second in the middle, just a second where she pauses and you can kindof see her going inside herself, regrouping and coming back out for part two.
Wow, okay, interesting.
And it's just a tiny, tiny moment.
(28:23):
And I think that's just a beautiful symbol really of humanity and how we can do what weneed to do personally, as I don't want to be out there so much.
can regroup ourselves and we can do that storytelling thing at the same time.
(28:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And the pause was probably, I'll have to watch the video, a really great moment for theaudience as well, whether they picked up on what you'd picked up on or not.
A lot of clients will think that their pauses are too long or that they're doing enoughpauses when they're not, because it can feel like, you know, five minutes to you when it's
(29:13):
30 seconds for the audience and
And it actually gives really lovely brain breaks for the audience to just reflect on whatyou've said and um really take it in before the next moment.
And it also, it bookmarks, I call it moments that you're speaking about rather thaneverything just sort of blending into one.
(29:35):
We need to take the audience on a journey and pauses can really help with thatbookmarking.
I'll have to check out that Ted talk though, it sounds amazing.
Yeah, it was was hardly any time at all, but I'm interested about longer breaks and I'mgoing back to your your story about the five course man.
Yes.
(29:57):
So what were you interested in with the...
sure that he has breaks.
You said a lot of different things, all of which I thought were really interesting.
So one of them was the thing about almost marking the chapters of what you're saying.
And that made me think about him doing that.
(30:17):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, I call them signature moments when when I'm talking about the keynote shows, the bigones that we were talking about.
Yeah, creating signature moments in the show because your audience can only remember somuch at once as well.
So if you can find, as you said, little chapters or little bookmarks within the overallshow, and obviously it all flows together in some way, shape or form, then
(30:42):
that's a really digestible way for people to remember what was said in the keynote.
So it's almost like we've got little mini Netflix episodes in the one live show and yousee, you know, course one, as we said, and we are calling it, okay, so for your entree, da
(31:02):
da da da da, now course one too, and we do dessert for the finale.
And yes, he absolutely,
we're actually rehearsing it at the moment.
So there is absolutely longer pauses between each course or signature moment.
And then of course there's pauses within stories within those signature moments as well.
(31:25):
So yes, the pause, this is a great way to think about it actually for your audience.
Think about music.
So I always think about epic songs like Whitney Houston's, Will Always Love You forinstance.
There's this huge pause in the middle of the song.
where it crescendos and then it's pause, drum beat, and then she does the really big noteafter it.
(31:49):
If that pause wasn't there, it would sound completely different to how it does now.
And classical music, if you played a piece of classical music on the piano and didn't addthe pauses, the whole melody would be different.
And speaking's the same.
If we think about
(32:10):
adding those pauses in at the right moments, it can absolutely highlight a key point andthat goes for executives in boardrooms and small presentations as well.
And um it can add drama and suspense and then also help audiences reflect on what you'vesaid.
Absolutely and actually all the things you've just said about music and pausing andcadence also apply in a coaching conversation as much as they do in a presentation.
(32:40):
And we talk about that in the Human Behind the Coach book because there's something about,I think there's a lot to be learned about conversations.
You're talking about big conversations with an audience but also conversations one-to-one.
We can learn a lot from music.
Hmm.
That's so interesting that that's in your book.
(33:02):
I love that.
Yes.
And you definitely can.
And I think, even when it comes to presenting, if we think about presentations can be tojust a couple of people in a small meeting room, up to hundreds of thousands of people in
big stadiums.
And the moments that you have to create all the
(33:24):
pauses or cadence that you need can be quite dramatically different based on the scenarioand the proximity that you are to the audience.
So I always talk about energy in those instances and I'll say to a client, if youperformed the same, presented the same in a small meeting with a couple of people as you
(33:49):
did in front of 15,000 on a large stage, you'd be
really boring on that large stage.
And vice versa, if you did what's required on the large stage in the small meeting roomwith the board or with a couple of people, they'd think you're crazy.
uh It's not gonna work in that setting.
(34:09):
So you've got to match your energy to the size of the space and the size of the audienceto make it fit wherever you are.
Wise words.
Thank you Carmen so much for coming and sharing about stories.
Absolute pleasure.
(34:30):
It's been such a lovely conversation.
I feel very calm.
It's actually uh after 5pm in Australia.
as I said to you earlier, I could have had my wine sitting here and that would have beenlovely.
But you needed your cup of tea.
It's too early for you.
We have had a guest bring their wine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(34:52):
I wasn't quick enough with that.
Didn't bring my prop.
See, I should have brought my prop.
Yeah I should have warned you in advance.
So how do people get in touch with you to find out more Carmen?
They can go to illuminatedstory.com and I am also on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
um LinkedIn is probably the one I'm on the most, all under Illuminated Story.
(35:19):
Brilliant and we'll put those in the show notes.
So thank you for coming to The Coaching Inn and thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
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