Episode 48: Fostering Collaboration and Storytelling in Leadership to Action Change (With Meghan Lawson)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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I think we're really hard on ourselves.

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think also we don't have to have all the answers or have some big plan.
We just need to figure out what's the next best move to make and to make that move andlearn from it.

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Alchemists, welcome to the Elemental Educator podcast.
I'm your host, Tyler, and thank you so much for joining our community for anotherincredible connection.
If you're listening for the first time, welcome to a place where we redefine leadershipand challenge the status quo.
Take a minute before continuing the episode to follow our Instagram or subscribe to ourYouTube channel.
Links in the descriptions.

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And for those returning alchemists, take some time to expand our community and share thisplatform with one other person today.
I'm so thankful for your passion and dedication.
to being better together.
Now get ready to let the alchemy of education ignite your passion for learning.
Today, I'm thrilled to have Meghan Lawson with us.
Meghan is a kindness ambassador, a passionate advocate for collaboration, and someone whodeeply believes in the power of story to connect people and create transformational

(01:15):
change.
With a background that spans nearly two decades in education, starting in the Englishlanguage arts classroom, Meghan has since become a voice of hope and inspiration for
educators.
Her book,
Legacy of Learning, offers practical strategies for educators to focus on what trulymatters with relatable stories and small moves that make big impact.

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Beyond her writing, Meghan has a remarkable ability to cultivate environments that promotestorytelling, collaboration, and meaningful change, creating magic in schools every single
day.
Meghan, it's such an honor to have you on the show.
Welcome to the Elemental Educator podcast.
Thank so much for having me.
It's such an honor to be here.
Wow, quite an intro.

(01:57):
just feel I'm sitting taller listening to all of that.
So thank you.
It's my favorite thing to actually probably do on the show because as I read them and Icome back and I get to talk about these people, I watch the video and I watch people get
to light up as I share all of these amazing things people do.
And people don't realize how many things they actually accomplish until something likethat's read of them.
So I love it.

(02:17):
Thanks so much for taking time to join me.
And I want to jump right into the biggest question that I ask people, which is how did youget to where you are now?
So I had a fairly humbling start to education.
I know so many people who have these beautiful stories about my mom was a teacher or bothmy parents were educators and I always knew I wanted to be a teacher.

(02:38):
I didn't want to be a teacher.
I actually...
was a competitive dancer and I thought I was gonna move to New York and live out of abackpack and dance on Broadway.
And my mom, a very practical single parent said, you you don't need a college degree toperform in shows.
Why don't you get a college degree first?
I remember feeling like, she's such a dream killer.

(03:00):
But I did.
So then I was like, well, I'm gonna study television broadcasting.
And she was like, they're gonna, you know, have you sweeping the newsroom for a decadebefore they put you behind a camera.
And I was like, wow, another dream killed.
But the truth is, she, I have a lot to thank her for because she led me to this path of,okay, well, what else though?
And I did not start my career loving teaching.

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I actually learned how to love teaching through experience.
And I only tell that story because I think so often people think that you are a kid andyou just discover your passion and you go off and you live this passion.
But really, our students need experiences in order to develop passion.
and so do we, and I have grown to deeply love both this profession and the impact that wecan make in it.

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And so I've been a middle school teacher, I've been a high school teacher, I've been anassistant principal at a middle school, an elementary principal, I've held various
district office roles, I've been educational consultant, and I'm currently serving in myfirst year as an assistant superintendent of teaching and learning.
What an amazing journey and you know, same as me.

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didn't wake up.
in kindergarten and say I wanted to be a teacher and the path that I took to get here isquite unique as well.
So I appreciate those people that didn't feel called to it.
But I also love connecting with people that do feel called to it.
It's one of those professions that people just end up finding their way into.
And it's usually rooted around an earth element or a core value that brings back to thebedrock of why people want to do the things they do.

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And
Your work celebrates kindness, connection, and storytelling, that's rooted in somethingmuch deeper than just those words, which is probably why we are where we are in having the
conversation we're having.
But what life experiences or moments helped shape the values that you have.
So I would say...
I have a core memory that I often come back to and that's from my first grade year.

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So when I was in kindergarten, to take it back even one more year, my dad was diagnosedwith chronic myeloid leukemia.
And in February, February 12th actually of my first grade year, he was supposed to comehome.
My mom was supposed to walk through the door with my dad because they had done everythingthat they could for him.
But she walked through the door without him and had to break the news to me like only

(05:27):
someone can to a first grader that my dad wasn't coming home, he would never be cominghome.
And I can remember sitting on my canopy bed, brown shag carpet, it was the 80s, and I flewoff my bed and in a fit of grief, I run to the window and I pull the blinds actually off
the window, I'm just so overcome with emotion, and I turn to my mom and my first questionfor her is, are we gonna have enough food to eat?

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And...
I tell this story so many times, but every time I tell that part, that part really...
is the only part I feel emotional about.
Like I feel I can tell the other story part of the story and stay fairly composed.
But I think it's because that's such a hard thing for someone so young to have to worryabout.
And yet there's many kids who worry about that and more.

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That's probably why I'm so easily triggered when we talk about, know, preparing these kidsfor the real world.
Because in doing so, we really minimize the experiences that they're having in their livesinside and outside of the schoolhouse.
So a couple of weeks pass and it's time for me to go back to school.
mom drove her powder blue 1986 Camry through the front of the schoolhouse and I rememberfeeling like it was going to take a Herculean level of strength to open that car door and

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walk away from her until my gaze meets the front of the school and my teacher, Mrs.
Bogus, had all of my friends smiling, waving, faces pressed against the glass, beckoningme into the school and it was as if she had turned something terribly hard into a
celebration of life and my return and life after loss.

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and she had my back countless times that school year.
And so I think when I think about her and that school year and the many other educatorsand friends and people that have been there for me in my lifetime, it's made me realize
just that there are no small moves in a school or really in our lives.

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And so I think that's where my interest and kindness and small moves and the power we canhave in each other's lives probably began.
Thanks for being vulnerable and sharing that story.
I just had a presentation from Dr.
Allison, who has done worldwide studies on being values driven and what people are rootedin.

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And he talks so strongly about the value of experience.
And the biggest part of that value is...
is usually the disconnect that teachers have with the general population where we don'trealize how much the general population actually values experience.
And to connect with them on that level in education and through learning and beingcreative through experience can actually help bridge the connection between teaching and

(08:12):
the education world and then the rest of the world that's not involved in education.
And it can make a huge difference in the support, your classroom, your community, yourschool, whatever you're even leading.
sees because people do value experience still.
It's a very strong core value.
Now with that, you've written about the importance of these small practical moves forlasting change.

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What's one small action rooted in your values that's had a major impact on your work or acommunity you've served?
deeply in small moves and I love anytime somebody quotes research or the voices of otherprofessionals.
So my interest in small moves began when I stumbled into the book A Billion Hours of Goodby Chris Field and essentially he says that if everybody spent 15 minutes a day trying to

(09:00):
make the world better in some way that's personally meaningful to them, imagine how theworld would change.
And so then that got me thinking, okay well what
does that look like in the span of a school day?
So, you know, if you have a seven and a half hour work day, that's roughly four and a halfminutes in a day.

(09:20):
That's like 1 % of your day.
Just like 15 minutes would be 1 % of the 24 hour day.
And so then I was like, okay, well, what if you had a 50 minute bell?
That's about 30 seconds.
And so there's something about being so overwhelmed in this profession that I think drivesus to think about, what can I do and what can I manage right now?

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And so it's very appealing to me to think in terms of small moves.
So for me, one move that I make is simply just moving myself closer.
start to where the work is happening every day, proximity.
So I wear my sneakers most of the time, unless I have some meeting where I need to lookmore adult and I wear more grown-up shoes.

(10:02):
And I just go where the people are.
I go where educators are.
I go into classrooms.
I go into the buildings.
And as somebody in a district office, it keeps me rooted in the realities of what it takesevery day.
And then I'm also inspired by the amazing things I see kids doing, amazing things I seeteachers and principals do.
And so that's a value that I hold.

(10:23):
And then when I can, I offer to jump in, Like lend a helping hand when you can.
there's just something satisfying about that when there's other complex, big problems thatI'm still stuck figuring out how we're going to move forward.
and to model it for them and to walk arm in arm with them.
through the struggles they're going through is a huge testament to a value onrelationships and a value on togetherness.

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And Dr.
Rick Gilson says this really well, and I might butcher what he's saying, but he talkedabout how when you want to see something take action, you have to consider the motivations
behind it, the behaviors behind it and the prompt behind it.
And they all multiply off of each other.
And so if one of those factors is a factor of zero, you're not going to see the response.

(11:11):
And so he talks
when working with change you really need to focus on at least getting them to a factor ofone one prompt one motivation one behavior and More often than not he used the analogy of
when people set these New Year's resolutions they try to have that motivation factor at 3040 50 and Sure, the prompt at the start is is maybe five to ten But then it starts to drop

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and by the time you hit March that prompt is zero that behavior zero Or that motivation isgone to zero and now you're not reaching your new year's revolution
because you haven't stayed at a factor of one for those categories and it's theconsistency behind it.
So I appreciate the story shared there as well.
Speaking of values, they're often tested during times of adversity.

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Overcoming challenges requires grit and determination.
How has your commitment to kindness and transformational change carried you through toughmoments?
Well, I'm still thinking about that research.
It's reminding me of, I think I'm making some connections to John Acuff's work.
I don't know if you're familiar with any of his work around perfectionism and if you havea big goal, cut it in half, because you're more likely to continue to persevere.

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And the most important day is the first day that you don't reach your goal for the day onhow you respond the next day.
I think that I can make lot of connections to what I just said there and probably beinggritty in the work.
But I would say, I think it's really easy to...
judge ourselves harshly and others harshly when the going gets tough.

(12:40):
And so for me, I think I just am really focused on centering my own humanity and that ofother people and remembering that everybody is somebody else's entire world.
Somebody else's, you know, even the adults are someone else's kid, right?
And that we're whole people and there's a lot of reasons why we bring different behaviorsor reactions into school.

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And I think sometimes it's easy to get frustrated with
adults when it feels like people are getting in the way of change, but there's good reasonwhy the behaviors look the way that they do and if we can not judge and instead listen and
foster some more curiosity inside of the reactions and behaviors, there's some kind oftruth there that's important in figuring out how to move forward.

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So I'm just really focused on trying to be softer, myself and other people, soft on thepeople and harder on the problems.
would be a quote that I've gotten from the guys who wrote Otherful.
But that requires a lot of self-awareness and self-discipline and self-work and that canget pretty exhausting.

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I think it's amazing how much self-work goes into leadership.
I used to be somebody who read a lot of practitioner books.
I was reading cover to cover every Marzano and Hattie and DeFore book that I could findand those are still really important books.
roles that I'm in now I need to read more books, self-help books probably honestly likeself-development books because there's nothing more dangerous I think than a leader who

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lacks self-awareness.
I love that statement because I also love the statement that the best leaders are alwaysstill learning how to lead.
And so what you're sharing is a testament to your leadership qualities and what you'reable to strive for and do.
And in doing what you're doing, we're really trying to disrupt a current status quo ofexpectations of leaders and expectations of followers and what that dynamic looks like.

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And it's about creating
that alignment not to the person, but to the problem, which is what you talked about.
We can all be aligned towards the same problem we're trying to solve.
And once we have that alignment, we actually start to work more as a team.
We start to collaborate.
And once you collaborate through the work of Hathi, we know the impact of collectiveefficacy.
It's huge.
It's through the roof.
So with that, though, in mind, what's one of the significant challenges you faced intrying to drive this change and how did you persevere through it?

(15:05):
I'm in a new role, so I'll start with my new role, actually.
I think my title gets in the way of the work sometimes, right?
Like, the assistant superintendent's here, like, the assistant superintendent's in theroom, I don't if you've seen the Barbie movie, but like, I'm just Ken, like, I'm just
Meghan, right?
And so I keep saying that in rooms that I'm in, and I also keep trying to cultivate spacesfor...

(15:28):
Vulnerability and usually leaders have to go first in order for others to feel safe to dothe same like we They're not saying we need our hands in the in our hair and in the air
like What will we ever do and we're never going to figure this out?
But admitting when we don't know admitting when we're struggling with something Share justa little bit of self-disclosure So that people can see that I'm a person beyond my title

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and then making space for others to do the same tends to create more space forvulnerability and that
for problem solving and let's figure this out together.
I also just try really hard to, and I heard someone say this once, that when you're tryingto pursue change, people really benefit from also being rooted in what's not gonna change,

(16:14):
right?
Like what's gonna stay the same that I can hold to so I have some steady ground as I tryto.
be open to something that will feel different.
And then finally, people want to be part of building something together and people aremore likely to embrace change that they were a part of creating.
So creating space for people to do that is really my process for leading transformationalchange.

(16:37):
A lot of, you know, and also defining people's role in the work.
So I want people to feel like they have more leverage to make a final decision if that'slike not appropriate for a particular situation, but also naming for people how they're
voice shaped the work, I think allows people to see, this is a little bit about somethingthat I've been talking about that was a struggle, or this little part of my idea.

(17:01):
Like I can see it unfolding in this piece, and that I think generates some momentum forpeople to feel like there was collective impact, to go back to what you were mentioning
about, Hattie.
There's so many tangents within what you just shared.
We could go down these forever.
We could go down the tangent of there's a difference between transparency andvulnerability and just offloading all of your feelings.

(17:22):
The ability to come in and be transparent with people and say.
Sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that's okay.
I'm going to figure it out though.
That's, that's my job to figure it out.
That's why I'm here is because I'm really good at figuring out what I need to do.
some people don't fully have that understanding when you come into that moment, which onceyou can establish that it's, it's, it's very powerful.

(17:42):
We could also jump to, you know, the Simon Sinek of people don't buy what you do.
They buy why you do it and, and teaching people the why behind things to build thatcollective efficacy, to establish a sense of ownership to.
have those people want to dive in and really kind of root back to their earth and bringthem back to the core value.
And this is why we're doing what we're doing.
This is how you're a part of doing what we're doing.

(18:04):
We need to do this together or it's not going to work.
It's actually going to be the opposite and completely fail.
And it's going to turn into, you know, a trend or a fad or something that somebody triedto impose on you.
And you're going to have, you're going to have misalignment and we're not going to get towhere we go.
And the whole important part of that is how things are delivered to people and how we saythings to people and how we interact with people.

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And that kind of goes with your mantra of words matter.
So can you share a moment where your words or someone else's made a transformativedifference in a difficult time?
And how did the mantra words matter come to you?
Well, I was an English teacher, so I've always loved words.
And I think probably some of my best writing or my best work comes from my own pain.

(18:51):
And I think there's some quote out there, right?
Like nothing bad can happen to an author or a writer because they use it for theircontent.
But the truth is, the things that I've written or said like words matter.
I used to say, know, words matter, our actions matter, you we matter.
And it was so sad that I have to remind us how deeply we matter, but I just feel likethere was a period of time in education and maybe still today where people weren't feeling

(19:18):
like what they were doing was making any kind of difference.
so...
I think I probably was in a little bit of a dark place when I came up with this mantrabecause I think I wasn't feeling either seen or valued or like what I was doing was making
any kind of difference.
And so I started testing out different things on Twitter to see if other people werefeeling the same.
I put a quote, well, I first started with other people's words.

(19:40):
And before that I had my Twitter locked down because I was like, my gosh, scary Twitter.
Someone might find something I wrote on here.
And then I was like, someone might find something I wrote on here.
And it became a positive thing, right?
Yeah.
So when I was finally brave enough to start sharing my own thoughts on Twitter, which wasprobably sadly a year after opening my account to the public, I started to see that other

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people were connecting with this idea that our words matter.
And I think it's because we've all been on either side of that.
Like we've either experienced the power of somebody saying something that made us feellike we could try again tomorrow and that we were seen and valued.
We've also experienced things that people have said and probably unbeknownst to them havereally torn us down, unintentionally even have really made us question ourselves.

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So.
Just this past week.
I've just so appreciated people who are willing to take a moment to send a text And remindyou of something that you're doing that's making a difference I think it's easy to assume
for people who are superintendents or and have you know big scary district office titlesthat we don't need that because you know, we must get that all the time or we must just

(20:50):
know that like if that's something we're doing is making a difference and I got two two orthree texts this past week and two
of them were from previous places I worked telling me that things that we worked ontogether are making a big difference and they're still in motion and for me to know that
like I was a part of that story still even though I don't work in that district anymorethat meant a lot to me and then someone who I'm new to the team

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who said to me that I was what I represented in my interview and that I truly make peoplefeel seen and valued and that I was the real deal, essentially, and that made me feel
really valued and seen myself.
So I would just say, there's no small word, there's no small actions in a school, no smallwords in a school, and I just experienced that for myself this past week.

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And you know listeners, your motivation and your attitude towards this is probably lowerone right now, but this is your prompt that's at least that one or two.
We've all been in that PD where somebody says.
pull out your phone and text somebody you haven't texted in a while, just check in and seehow they're doing and let them know.
And you know what?
I'm actually gonna push you to do something different.
I mentioned this earlier in an episode.

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I'm gonna ask you, instead of that prompt, I want you to email yourself and I want you toschedule it two months from now and I want you to write a quick email to yourself that
says, hey, at the time of writing this, this is where you're at, this is how things aregoing, this is what you're hoping to have achieved within those two months.
And then two months from now when you open that email, that's your reminder to writeanother one two months from now and to keep checking in on yourself as well because as
much as we check in on other people,

(22:25):
we often forget the self-reflection too.
So take a moment, schedule that.
I try that every two months and it's what keeps me aligned to what I'm trying to do aswell.
It might work a little bit.
I don't have the research to back it up, so hopefully one day I do and we'll go fromthere.
But what these do, what these reminders do, what these check-ins do is they actually buildour ability to build that grit, to build that perseverance.

(22:48):
You know, I have to share, actually, I have to go off track here a little bit and say,when we say words matter and we matter and you matter, the science nerd in me always makes
the pun of you matter.
I talk about, you're not dark matter, you're matter.
And so you have to remember that there's not a darkness in you.
It's just matter.
It's who you are.
And we're meant to shine as we all are.

(23:10):
it's about sharing those shining moments because none of us are made of the opposite ofthe anti-matter or the dark matter.
No one's here to bring darkness.
But that being said,
Persevering through adversity often paves the way for recognizing the need for change.
And when you think about creating environments for storytelling and collaboration, what'sthe first change you believe needs to happen to make these spaces thrive?

(23:31):
think proximity builds trust.
And so when I talked about being around people, simply being together in the work or sideby side in the work, we start to slowly get more comfortable self-disclosing or talking
about problems or socializing solutions.
And I'm a big fan of also the sacrificial draft, putting sacrificial drafts in front ofpeople so people know this isn't done.
This isn't something that I'm asking for your feedback, but it's already how perfectlypackaged it is.

(23:54):
You know that if you say something not great about it, you've just completely torn downwhat's supposed to move forward.
I'm really big on showing.
the messy process part and letting people be on the inside of that part of it.
But I'm also trying to just create space for less focus on our to-do list and more focuson our to-be list.

(24:17):
So I have this culture and climate team that I lead and this past week we use this acronymfrom actually from again from Otherfull but it's FIRE so it's every letter stands for
something you that you
self-disclose about yourself and you talk about your interests or you talk about yourresponsibilities or your experiences or your fears that's what the F stands for and I was

(24:43):
shocked and amazed at how quickly people were getting into some really vulnerable thingsbut I also had to make small moves to cultivate a space where that could be true so like I
you know share a little bit of myself first I also let people sit with people that theyknow first you know so often like in
we jump right into icebreakers.
Ugh, we jump right into like, talk to somebody you don't know.

(25:05):
And it's like, okay, hang on a second.
you know, let's give people the safety of people that they know.
And then let's give them space to like self-reflect a little bit.
And then we might move them in that experience into randomized groupings, you know, andbuilding thinking classrooms in mathematics.
There's a big thing there about, you randomized groups and groups of three, if the kidsare in third grade or higher.
So I try to model that for the adults too, groups of three and randomized, but I don't doit right at the jump.

(25:31):
And so, and then I unpack and I name the moves that I've made so that not just the workwe're working on, but then the teachers are affirmed about things that they might already
be doing or might take back in their classroom the very next day.
So it's a yes and two-fer situation when we're building together.
Busy teachers have like ideas that they could take right into their classroom the nextday.
And because I'm naming the moves that we're making to get the work done while we'regetting the work done.

(25:56):
And you're heavily rooting that in.
In research behind almost every psychologist that's out there.
I know one specifically, Dr.
Don Castaldi, who talks about the fight, flight or freeze response.
And you know, the, the brain loop of going through is this safe?
Is this not safe?
Can I think critically to make a decision?
And we can't think critically to make a decision if we don't feel safe.

(26:17):
And what's the best way to make people not feel safe is put them in a room with a bunch ofpeople they don't know and ask them to talk to each other.
you'll never, you'll never make any progress with there until you can create that impactof safety and comfort.
So.
you're doing is actually very heavily rooted in research too that says you need to createthe safe space before you push people out of their comfort zone.
So I really appreciate that.

(26:38):
Now in the intro I mentioned your book a little bit.
I want to give you some time to to do it justice and more than what I could probably shareabout the book.
So I want to give you a second to just maybe open up about where it came from, what peoplecan expect if they were to buy your book, and then in it you empower educators to focus on
what matters most.
What would be an example

(26:59):
from the book that's a small move that led to a ripple effect of a positive change.
Yeah, so Legacy of Learning came out about a year ago and it's really, I wrote a book thatI just personally needed and it kind of was inspired by threads that, know, themes that
continued to emerge in my blog and that I would...

(27:19):
safely crowdsource in a blog kind of way and like, you know, see if it resonated withanybody.
And then I started to see that there were some patterns of things that I was talking aboutthat were getting more momentum.
And I wondered if maybe there was a book there for people.
So I've heard other people call my book like SEL for adults, which is not really what Imeant to write, but that's cool that people see that.

(27:39):
I know that's kind of a politicized term anymore.
And so I'm not really trying to be anything other than just a practical support.
educators and I think sometimes we in service of learning and kids we leave over theadults and focus on you know that phrase what's best for kids but in my experience one of

(28:01):
the best ways to take great care of kids and their learning is to take great care ofadults and their learning.
So that's a big part of the book is managing the workload and managing and taking greatcare of ourselves so that we can take great care of other people and practical moves for
doing both.
I often say, you my expectations for learning are high, but my expectations for how wetreat each other are even higher.

(28:27):
And so small moves in the book, you know, we start with a more self-reflective.
in self-management practices space, how do we manage all this work that we have coming inand how do we decide what matters most, place into what are the moves that we all know are
good and true that require little to no planning that probably the noise of our professionhave maybe caused us to question or forget about and how do we get back into some of those

(28:57):
moves and as an example simply greeting students at the door.
greeting students at the door.
There's a Edutopia article.
The research shows that kids have 20 % higher engagement time to task when a teacher justis excited to see them, uses their name, greets them at the door.
Discipline goes down by 9 % and you had no extra planning, but you did have to beintentional and you did have to commit to that small move.

(29:21):
But that can do a lot for student learning in the classroom and required no lessonplanning on our part.
And so those are just examples of some of the moves that we get into when we talk aboutactual classroom practices.
things that teachers know their teacher got is good that I just want to affirm and bringback to the forefront of their mind.
That can make a big impact for themselves and for kids.

(29:44):
and
Alchemists, I talk about this all the time when we talk about the air element and thewater element and the impact of change and resilience.
Change is the only constant that we'll face throughout our lives.
And you have the ability through small acts to influence change and drive change.
And it's the small acts like greeting somebody at a door.

(30:06):
doesn't need to even be in a school setting.
It can be in whatever workplace or organization setting you're in.
Greeting people creates that collective efficacy movement
that we know is effective no matter where you are.
So why not try to drive the change in a positive direction versus responding to changesthat happen in negative directions, right?
And the perfect thing that you just shared is the Edutopia article that alludes to, youknow, a 9 % decrease in discipline.

(30:34):
Well, guess what?
If you're not greeting people and you're not doing those things, discipline's probablygoing up, right?
And now you're dealing with the change and the resilience of discipline and behavior.
So it's the pro, it's the proactive movement and high expectations are an act of lovewhere low expectations are an act of apathy.
So if you love where you are, keep setting those high expectations because it shows thatyou love the people around you.

(30:59):
And you know, more often than not as a school principal, the conversations that I havewith kids, we do this because we love you guys.
We do this because we care and we expect so much of...
of you because we believe in you, right?
If we didn't believe in you, we wouldn't be pushing, we wouldn't be questioning, wewouldn't be driving.
So thank you so much for taking a minute to share that.

(31:22):
Where can people get your book?
So my book's available on Amazon.
You can also find my book at Barnes & Noble.
So those are the two places that it's easiest to get my book.
And if you will get my book, first of all, I'll be so excited if you get my book.
That's such an honor.
If you read my book, I would love to connect with you just to hear more about whatresonated, because I'm finding the biggest surprise in writing that book is the sense of

(31:45):
community.
And with other people who read the book and said, wow, me too.
And I think I believe these things too.
and I'm working on similar things.
It's really brought some really special people into my life that I've had the opportunityto learn from.
And so I'd love to keep connecting with really smart, caring educators.
And I know that in a past role there was education consulting and there was some workbehind that.

(32:12):
Does your book get leveraged and utilized that way where organizations, people can bringyour book in and then bring you in potentially?
Yes, thank you for asking.
Yes, I've had some speaking engagements where I've done a keynote at some conferences orPD events that people have put on and then done some small group breakouts with those

(32:34):
groups.
I've also done some leadership development consulting and strategic planning consultingwith not just schools, but actually the mom and pop construction company, which was pretty
fun.
And it was fun to see that a lot of
that we're struggling with in education are not totally unique to the world and to otherindustries.

(32:58):
I know we don't love hearing that sometimes to educators.
We think that all of our problems are just education problems, but actually we have a lotto learn and share across industries and I think that that's really making my work
smarter.
And I actually so dislike that, that it's so when people say it's just unique to educationthing, it's not because we're all people.
And when you look at what education is about, it's about working with people.

(33:21):
And so then you look at every organization that requires you to work with people, which isa ton, right?
Any service industry that's out there, requires you to work with people, any organization.
And those problems can, can be quite similar.
And more often than not, education world actually pulls from like the business managementwork.
style and we we try to we try to take what's going well in business management and applyit in education settings.

(33:46):
And not often enough is does the reverse happen where business management styles arelooking at what educators are doing and pulling from there.
We talked about the work of collective efficacy and I stood on my pedestal and I said thisis an amazing thing that people need to consider.
That doesn't just stand for the unique little niche that you're in.

(34:06):
Niche, niche, you know, I've heard both actually.
I'm going to stay with niche.
that people are in.
It can be.
that community, right?
And you can establish collective efficacy, like you said, in branching outside of theeducational world and working with people that don't even think they have that tangent on
education because you're rooted back in your earth element of experience, which is, whichis a very cool value to have because that value of experience, everybody wants, everybody

(34:33):
wants experience and things.
That's not just education restricted.
So you talked about the mom and pop organization, which is very cool to go and work withas well.
Probably not rooted in necessarily
the education factor, but rooted in a similar connection to what your book's about.
So thank you very much for sharing that as well.
Now, with it as well, you speak very often about restoring hope, happiness, curiosity.

(34:57):
Can you share a story where you witnessed a community embrace and emerge stronger withthat concept of hope and curiosity?
Yeah, so I was a part of creating a teacher.
educator program, right, where kids who might be interested in being a teacher.
And my previous school district, and I got to hear, actually got to see some kids and thatteacher who started that educator program at a conference last week.

(35:25):
And it was just really inspiring to be reminded about the work that we did together andthe work that they're continuing to do.
And they reminded me of things that we did that I want to bring into my new district, justthings like, you know, student panels to make sure we're hearing from kids about the
experience.
that we're providing them in a program where kids might want to be teacher and they'redoing internships in elementary schools and their own school district and then coming back

(35:49):
and talking about the teaching practices that they're learning and trying.
is they're living in two worlds at a really unique time.
Like they're living the student experience and they're also trying to be teachers and nowthey're privy to the moves that their teachers might be making at the high school level or
not be making for that matter and it's like a really interesting like reflection thathappens for them.
And so they've started providing professional learning to teachers on PD days and that'sthe thing that I thought, that would be so, because we have a know future educators

(36:16):
program in my current school district too and I think it's really incredible when teacherslearn.
from kids and learning sessions.
Like they were telling me they led a session on movement, how important movement is to thebrain and in the classroom.
And then one of the students said that one of their teachers came to their session andthen the next week in class, having never used movement in the classroom, was using some

(36:38):
of the strategies that they learned from that student the very next week.
Which kudos to that teacher, right, to be so humble to say like, okay, this is cool, likeI should have maybe been doing this, I'm gonna try it.
And then for the kid to see that they did the thing that made a difference and thatteacher is now doing the thing that the
they learned from them.
I just thought that was a really beautiful story of impact and I'm trying to figure outhow do I cultivate more of that now in my new educational community.

(37:01):
I love that and my...
My head went instantly to one of my teachers who's modeling a new class that we've askedthem to do.
It's a fitness-based class.
They get a career and technology studies credit for the class.
It's just an exercise class.
And I say just because I'm trying to downplay what he's doing, but it's actually quiteincredible.

(37:23):
He has each kid learning about the foundations of training and the principles of training.
But the one task that he asks them to do is to build their own work.
And in building their workout, he then asks them to share their workout with the peoplethat are in the class.
And they get to lead the class for a bit.
And he said it's been the highest motivated classes.

(37:46):
The kids are into it, the person teaching it's into it.
They love what they're doing.
And...
The next conversation that we're building towards is how can you take what you're doingthere because you have this high prompt on motivation.
You have this high prompt on behavior and you have the high prompt on the prompt itselfbecause the kids are saying it too.
How can you take what you're doing in this class and translate it to your English class,translate it to your math class, translate it to your science, your social classes, or

(38:13):
your history class, wherever you may be and what core subjects you may have.
How do we bridge that gap between, you know, what's considered the fun
class and bring it to the core academic class and it's giving them charge in thatempowerment.
Going a whole step further and bringing up the realm of teacher development, that'ssomething that makes me nervous to try, but it's something that I want to try doing and

(38:36):
asking my students because they know what they need best and to give them time to sharethat gives them buy-in as well.
It creates not just that collective efficacy with the teachers, it brings it with thestudents as well and then you fully become aligned and driven.
With that, that's a big change.
And even talking that out loud, you know, there is some risk required in that, whichbrings us a bit to the fire element section here, which talks about risk and

(39:03):
decision-making.
And risk requires courage.
When you think about the work you've done in leadership development and strategicplanning, what's been the boldest decision or one that's required a lot of courage from
you to make?
And what did you learn from it?
I mean, I have learned a lot from doing work across industries because I think a lot of usundermine, or underestimate, I should say, underestimate the skills that we have and to be

(39:33):
confident that what we have to say can matter and that a different industry is somethingthat I've learned.
But I guess I would also say that I have done a lot of
that I was scared to do.
I think they're, you sometimes you can't outpace your community's readiness for change.
But you also have to be willing to make change even when...

(39:56):
when done well, even when other people disagree.
And so I mean, I've led some changes in some very traditionally successful communities,like, you know, changing, removing valedictorian, salutatorian in favor of a Latin honor
system at graduation to celebrate more students and finding more ways to celebrate morestudents.

(40:21):
because or moving class rank from transcripts or changing the way we weighted grades.
You know, I went through a process then when I brought this parent of a student in thenumber one spot, right, to say like, hey, I think the story we're telling ourselves is
that these things are important because this is what colleges are looking for.

(40:43):
But
Are those true stories?
I mean, I think we did this whole research where we realized colleges are actually undoingall of the way we weight grades, because everyone's doing that differently.
mean, having the parent alongside us calling the universities herself and asking thosequestions and then realizing that the things that we said we were doing in service of the

(41:05):
future for kids actually wasn't true anymore gave me the confidence to say we were ontosomething and that we're doing something that's making kids feel like they're like in this
rat race, right?
And that they need to take classes that they don't even get excited about just to getahead of the pack to build their future.
I remember feeling though, like before that board meeting,
of the kind of things that boards approve that I was going to throw up.

(41:27):
thought I was, you know, thought I was, people are going to come with pitchforks to thismeeting and I actually had hired a job coach to...
I thought she was going to help me figure out what I wanted to do in the future, butreally she just helped me get better at the job I was in.
And she said, okay, so what's the worst thing that can happen here?
And I said, well, people show up to this meeting really mad and they speak out against me.

(41:47):
And then she's like, okay, and then what happens?
And I'm like, and then I end up on the local news.
And she's like, okay, and then what happens?
And I'm like, and then I get fired.
And she's like, okay, and then what happens?
I'm like, okay, lady, I just got fired.
Like, did you not hear that part of the story?
Right?
And she was saying, but you would be okay, right?
Like on the other side of all of that, like you're a strong person with skills and you'redoing things for the right reasons.

(42:08):
Like do you believe in what you're doing?
And I said yes.
And you know, she said, okay, so you like you're doing the right thing.
So just lay your head on your pillow at night and go to sleep knowing that you're in itfor the right reasons.
You've done this the right way.
You believe in what you're doing.
And if something happens, you have enough skills to land on your feet and whateverhappens, it's going to happen.
And I know that sounds kind of crazy, but something about like fear setting,

(42:32):
allowed me to navigate change, big scary change.
And what she did is she rooted you back to your value and she brought you back to yourearth.
And she said,
Is this something you're rooted in?
Is this something that you truly believe in?
Is it a core value to you?
And if the answer is yes, then we need to remove the fear of living by our values andbeing values driven because then you could conform, but you're not going to feel

(43:00):
fulfillment.
And that's where burnout happens, right?
We talk about teacher burnout.
We talk about teacher retention.
We talk about even just workplace burnout and retention and how people dread going to workbecause more often than not, you're not, you're not bringing your values to
workplace and your workplace isn't letting your values come out as well.
And when those two can align and you can create that, you create a workplace system wherepeople enjoy going to where they're going.

(43:24):
And you know what, Meghan, we could go down this big tangent on universities as well.
When you bring it up, my head goes to wanting to talk about the massive disconnect betweenK-12 education and higher education.
And what people often don't realize is a lot of the people teaching higher education don'thave bachelor of education degrees.

(43:47):
They're doctors in their fields, they're masters in their fields, and they've been askedwhile they're doing their research to share what they're finding with the people to help
them bridge that gap on degrees.
And so that's an example where we take an educational institution and we don't actuallyrealize how much education and pedagogy that that institution is lacking.

(44:07):
And that's the bridge and the connect.
learn a lot from the things that post-secondary institutions do, but we need tocollaborate with them more because there's a lot they can learn from us as well and how we
deliver instruction and bring instruction.
Gone should be the days of sitting in a lecture hall of a thousand people scribbling notesfor two hours.
I failed my anatomy class the first time I took it because it was taught in the worstpossible way.

(44:32):
You know, I showed up to every class, worked as hard as I did.
And it wasn't until the pedagogy changed the next year that it was able to work for me.
because I was able to connect with it a bit better, but I had to work so hard to get thatfirst bachelor of science degree, the disconnect there.
Sorry, I can go on a tangent on that for a very long time, but I love the story and themessage you're sharing.

(44:55):
A very powerful one that risks are not risks if they're rooted in your core value.
Bringing it back to that, if you had to take one more risk today, which I know a new job,it might be a bold statement having you come out and say that.
So if we don't want to go down in that tangent, we don't have to.
But if you could make one big bold decision today, I know it's going to be somethingrooted in this core value of experience or this core value of relationships or this core

(45:21):
value of being better together.
What would it be?
I think a lot of us, if we could design school the way we know it can grow learning andgrow people, there's a lot of things that are currently true about the design of K-12
school that we've all inherited that have felt really difficult to challenge or change.

(45:45):
And so I think I would love to create space for a group of people to say, let's forgeteverything we ever knew and what actually makes sense for doing
right by kids and their learning.
Like what makes sense for our brains, the learning process, creating belonging in theschoolhouse and high engagement.
I imagine that there are certain things that we wouldn't be doing anymore.

(46:08):
We probably wouldn't be shuffling kids from class to class and have them learning inisolation and assign them letter grades.
and and and, right?
So I think if I could just be bold and brave, it would be to say, let's completely startover.
and
We don't have enough time to go down the rabbit hole of what does that dream fully looklike?

(46:28):
But, you know, I'll, I'll allude to, you know, if, we're talking about experience being ahuge value that the world believes in and that you believe in, it's probably going down to
what kind of exposures can we give these people at these young ages to help them determinewhat path they want to try and go on, right?
You brought it back to yourself saying you didn't grow up wanting to be a teacher.

(46:49):
and it wasn't until you had the experience of it that you
learned that, hey, this is something I kind of like doing.
And that's very similar to myself, is I didn't realize that I liked education until I hadthe experience and exposure to education.
So very, very cool thought.
I would love to see where that goes.
Now, this is a bit of a bigger question, but what are you hoping people action in theirlives tomorrow from your message today?

(47:13):
I hope people can feel encouraged.
think people are doing better than they think.
I think we're really hard on ourselves.
think also we don't have to have all the answers or have some big plan.
We just need to figure out what's the next best move to make and to make that move andlearn from it.
And then what comes next after that?
Like it's just day after day, like forward is forward.
What's one thing that we can do and continue doing if it's working.

(47:38):
And that that is a way to build sustainable change and it's okay to move small.
if you continue moving in the right
I love that.
And Meghan, I know a new role this year, but what does your future look like?
You know, I always struggle with that question.
I talked about hiring a job coach because I was trying to answer that question eight yearsago in my career.

(47:59):
I just really want to do work I believe in with people I enjoy.
And so if that's true, I can be very satisfied with that.
think life is too short to not enjoy the work.
You know, this doesn't mean we're going to enjoy every moment of the work and that therearen't going to be hard days.
But as someone who lost, you know, my dad was really young when he passed and he was 33.

(48:20):
I'm 42 now.
Every year that I live beyond what he got to experience is a gift to me and I'm reallyliving this life for both of us now.
And so I just don't want to take it for granted.
I want to live well and enjoy my work.
And so whatever that looks like is what it looks like.
I love the belief behind that.
Thank you so much for sharing that.

(48:40):
Now, it's probably in the book, but for those that want to bypass that for now, how canour listeners get in touch with you and connect?
Yeah, I would love to connect with people.
So you can find me on X.
It's Meghan underscore Lawson.
My first name has an H.
My mom had to make it hard for everybody.
So Meghan underscore Lawson.
And then Instagram, it's just Meghan Lawson blog.

(49:01):
Or you can find me on my website.
It's where I'm blogging every week.
I usually blog on Saturday or Sundays.
And that's just meganlawson.com.
And we'll link all of that in the description of our episode.
So alchemists, as we wrap up the episode, I also want to just take a moment and share myappreciation for you as a listenership.
You're the reason we're here.

(49:22):
You're the inspiration for the show.
I hope that our journey today sparked some points of interest for you to.
Dive deeper, make sure you subscribe to the monthly newsletter.
Make sure you check out the work of Meghan Lawson for these actionable strategies andin-depth analysis of not just our episodes, but the work that she's doing as well.
And reach out in our Instagram for any link you want.

(49:42):
Reach out to Meghan for any link you want.
And Meghan, thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to connect,collaborate, and empower us all through your lived experiences.
I'm so inspired by the storytelling you're doing on this podcast and the research thatyou're sharing.
So thank you to you and everybody who's listening and it's been a true honor and pleasuretoday.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 48: Fostering Collaboration and Storytelling in Leadership to Action Change (With Meghan Lawson)

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Are You A Charlotte?

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Episode 48: Fostering Collaboration and Storytelling in Leadership to Action Change (With Meghan Lawson)

Are You A Charlotte?