Episode 51: What a Top Leader has to Say about Positive Cultures (wtih Phil Willott)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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if you're going to make a change to anything, just listen to where it's coming from, makeit informed.

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Don't make a rash decision, make an informed decision.
Alchemists, welcome to the Elemental Educator podcast.

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I'm your host Tyler, and thank you so much for joining our community for anotherincredible connection.
If you're listening for the first time, welcome to a place where we redefine leadershipand challenge the status quo.
Take a minute before continuing the episode to follow our Instagram at Elementalunderscore educator.
And for those returning alchemists, take some time to expand our community and share thisplatform with one other person today.

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I'm so thankful for your passion and dedication to being better together.
Now get ready to let the alchemy of education ignite your passion for learning.
Today we have the incredible honor of speaking with a leader who embodies the very heartof education and inclusion.
Phil Willett, as the Director of Education for Rally Education Trust, Phil's career spansover 18 years of transformative work, championing trauma-informed practices, inclusive

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education, and the development of the whole child.
Phil's leadership has not only driven school improvement,
leading institutions out of special measures, but has also fostered environments of careand kindness, recognized by both local and national press.
From earning the prestigious Trauma-Informed Schools Award to opening alternativeacademy-free schools, Phil's work is a testament to the power of education as a force for

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positive change.
Beyond his professional achievements, Phil's passion for early intervention, safeguarding,and lifelong learning
combined with his unwavering belief in schools as the heart of their communities shinesthrough in all that he does.
It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, Phil.
Welcome to the Elemental Educator Podcast.
Thank you very much for having me Tyler, appreciate that.

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the pleasure is all mine.
Absolutely.
I want to jump in right away by just unpacking, reading your intro and reading everyone'sintro that I get to do.
I love to hear the journey, but I don't get the full picture.
So how did you get to where you are now?
It's yeah probably it was I say it's not a traditional route.
I never thought I would be a teacher.
It wasn't something that I considered when I was younger.

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I was very much of the wanted to be a pilot actually an RAF pilot but I think that wasprobably to do with the film Top Gun and it probably was a bit of a misguided view of what
it would be like to be a pilot in the Royal Air Force.
And then I actually thought I'd be a police officer and work in that sort of field.
And I think that's what led me to my degree choice.

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Because at that point, I wasn't sure if I was going to go to university or not.
And it was actually a radio station that I seeked advice on in terms of next steps, interms of I knew I thought I wanted to go into the police force.
And they said, well, what have you thought about going to university?
And I actually went through in the UK clearing.
to go to university.
it wasn't, I wouldn't say it wasn't, didn't, I hadn't ruled it out going to universitywhen I was at school, but it probably wasn't a thing I even thought I was definitely going

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to do.
So I was very fortunate to obviously go to a university, started studying criminology,psychology, subjects like that.
And it was actually a lecturer, professor of criminology, Professor David Wilson, who
remember having a conversation with him and he asked me what I was doing next and I talkedabout going into the police force but I also shared a frustration that whilst I think they

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do a wonderful job it was some of these challenges or young people or adults they wereworking with what could we do earlier to prevent it from becoming criminalised behaviour
and so he said what about education?
And it was that, and I was then very fortunate to get a school that offered me theopportunity to train as a teacher.

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I was teaching IT.
I then went to another school that was closer to my home where I was living.
because of my degree, I was asked to teach law.
So I taught law with IT, became a head of year, so very much focused on the pastoral sideand that care of young people.
And I was there for about nine years, but I always...
gravitated to children that might have had special educational needs, may have sufferedwith trauma, even though I think back then, whilst trauma was a thing, it wasn't spoken

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about in the same way as it is now.
And I thought then I was looking for myself in terms of the opportunity to become a seniorleader.
I'd worked with some fantastic leaders and I just thought that was a route I wanted to godown to test myself at least.
But I also wanted to look at special educational settings, alternative settings.
So I was fortunate to get a senior leadership role in a more specialist setting that tookme outside my comfort zone actually because whilst I'd gravitated towards more pastoral

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care, this was a role that was a leader working with head to department, very muchcurriculum focus and assessment.
And at that point in my career, it was probably timely.
But actually, the reason I applied for the job was the school.
Whilst the role, if I was to design my ideal role at that point, it probably wouldn't havebeen that, around curriculum assessment.

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But actually, on hindsight, was probably one of the best things I did.
It took me outside my comfort zone, it made me a more rounded professional leader, I hope.
And that's, I suppose, I think that was a real turning point in terms of a notchpigeonholing myself in a certain type of leadership and giving me a bit more rounded.
I then was then very fortunate to, obviously again, carry on my career, became a specialeducational needs coordinator in a mainstream secondary school.

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Absolutely loved that role.
And then I was very privileged to have the opportunity to be an executive leader andexecutive principal of two alternative free schools.
And with that was to open up a brand new school.
That was in a different local authority for where I currently live and my family live,which is in Nottingham.
I always said if an opportunity came back, because this is where my children live, I wasborn and bred in Nottingham, that I would take it because I was really passionate to make

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a difference to more local community.
And that opportunity arose with the Raleigh Education Trust and I became the Director ofEducation and I've not looked back.
I absolutely love the role I've got.
It's very varied, which I also love.
And I get to work with some fantastic colleagues, but more importantly, some fantasticyoung people and families.

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Often some families and children that probably always have the best start.
But they are part of our community.
And for me, it's about wrapping around those families and children at the times where theyneed it.
Because I think from if I was to ever need it, I'd hope that my community would wraparound me.
Well, thank you so much for sharing, Phil.
And congratulations on the journey.

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sounds busy.
It sounds like it was tough, but it also sounds like it's incredible and definitelyrewarding.
You know, let's be honest for a sec though.
Becoming a pilot would be pretty cool.
I resonate with you.
Yeah, I know.
And I'm not sure it's the same as well, but I remember growing up as well thinking, man,becoming a fighter pilot would be pretty cool.

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But I needed glasses growing up and then I got laser eye and I don't think I would havequalified.
Funny enough though, I always talk all the time that if I was not a, if I was not ineducation, I would be pursuing the route of police officer to some extent or military
officer to some extent.
So very, very similar.
And I think that's rooted in a value of service or rooted in a value of care, right?

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And you know, Phil, the earth element that I talk about, it really embodies these corevalues and what we stand for.
And so it's actually not a surprising shift to see you go from
that idea of pilot to police to education because they all have that similar theme.
And you often speak about kindness, courage, relationships as the foundation of yourapproach.

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Are these in fact values you've intentionally rooted yourself in?
And if not, what values are you using to guide leadership and make your decisions?
I think in terms of where they came from, suppose they've come over, obviously I've beeninfluenced by some fantastic leaders, absolutely fantastic leaders and the ones that
probably had the most impact on me, if I look back whilst they may have never said myvalues of kindness and courage, they portrayed those values, they lived those values and I

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think over time I suppose if you were to write them down and there has been like sayleadership courses that they go on, they talk about your values and I suppose that's where
those words actually came from.
But they weren't just words I thought of, they were words that I've been influenced by.
And when people said, who's the most influential leader and you've worked with, whilstthere is people, I think actually it was the values that influenced me, the times of when

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they were kind and they demonstrate kindness, not just as me as a person, but tocolleagues, but also the children and families and everything they all serve.
And I think when we talk around leadership, kindness can be often misinterpreted as beinga sign of weakness.
And I actually think it's quite the opposite when we're talking about leadership.
I think when you're being kind, you're honest, you show empathy, you're compassionate.

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And I think they are key values that stem from being kind.
And I think it's really important.
So when you are honest, when you have to have, I don't like the word difficultconversations.
I think it's more about developmental conversations.
When you have to have a conversation with a colleague where maybe something wasn't okay, Ithink it's kind to do it.
You can do it in a kind way because you're being honest.
And I think you have to be honest to help people develop and become.

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And if they're not aware of a situation, then how would they have the opportunity todevelop and grow as a person, as a leader?
So I think it was more where the kindness came from was how I've been influenced.
I was very fortunate in terms of, think, my family, how they were with me as a child, inparticular my dad.
When he was with us, just...

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how he was as a person, very, very much working class.
Probably went across some at that point, I was, I'm quite, my parents had me quite late.
So from his generation and I suppose his period of upbringing, his role probably wentagainst the norm and probably how you describe somebody in his role, the work he was
doing.
But I just remember him being unbelievably kind, listening to people and giving peopletime.

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And I was influenced by that, but like I say, just then having some fantastic leaders andwhilst some of them become a blur, it was moments I remember that I think that's how it
should be done.
And the impact it not just had on me, but on others.
I think, like I said, when even I came into education, I've never had a set goal to be ahead teacher.
I never had that.
I never had anything like that.
was more, it came about because of a circumstance or because of I was influenced and Ithought, why not?

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But was never when I came into school by this age, I want to be ahead or want to be thisnever had that ever.
The courage aspect, think again, I think for it's really important that we again, some ofthe most influential leaders have been courageous in decisions they've made.
And they've thought a little bit differently rather than just following the norm.
They've challenged things and not in a unprofessional way or an argumentative way.

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they've challenged norms and they've said, actually, why should that be the norm?
Why should that be the thing that some of our children experience?
I want them to experience this.
So when I've seen leaders take children on different residential trips, and we've stillgot our leaders now that do things, and for some of the children that we're talking about
and some of them with quite complex special education needs, when we've talked about someof the residential trips that have gone, they'll say, really?

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And the surprise, absolutely.
absolutely they should have these opportunities that every children have.
Now you have to have a level of courage and leadership to make that because it'snerve-wracking.
Taking children on a residential trip abroad is nerve-wracking for all children as aleader but when they've got complex needs it's even more nerve-wracking but actually being
courage and actually they should have that opportunity.

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So I think the values that I've just picked up over time and I suppose the reason whythey're written down is
when you've been on leadership courses and tried to develop and they tried to establish,it's really important what are your values?
And I suppose that's the two things that stuck out to me in terms of what I suppose I'vebeen influenced by and how I would hope others can be influenced by me, if that makes

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sense.
Yeah.
And you know what, Phil, there are so many things we can unpack and what you just saidthat in its own could be an entire episode of just diving into this question.
I like that you came at it through an appreciative lens in the way that you're not talkingnecessarily about it being difficult conversations either that leaders have to have, but
they're, they're opportunity conversations as well.
it's, it's about, Hey,

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things are okay, but they can be better.
And you're not coming at it from a negative lens.
You're just saying, let's optimize what we're doing.
Let's make it best practice.
Let's truly dive in and unpack what we can do.
It's interesting hearing you unpack what kindness means to you, because for me, it's alittle different.
you borderline for me the definition between transparency as well, and the idea of justthat honest conversation.

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And when you brought that moment up, was sitting here thinking.
Man, this sounds to me like my value of being transparent with people and upfront withpeople and not withholding truths that I know that are truths.
Now, transparency doesn't mean sharing everything all at once.
It means people know what they need to know when they need to know it.
But adding kindness in there is a nice little element to touch on as well.

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So I appreciate the story and thank you so much for sharing.
Now...
Within that and within the intro that I got to read and celebrate with you for here, wetalked a little bit about trauma-informed practices and we talked a little bit about
special education that you're a part of.
And these are both central things that are home to you and you really resonate yourselfand dive into these topics.

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Can you share how these have aligned with these core values of kindness and courage andwhy it's vital in today's educational landscape?
I think when we're talking about trauma-informed practice, it's like I said earlier on,trauma has obviously always been there, it impacts everyone, absolutely everyone, and I
think it's very personal as well.

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Because my trauma, how it impacts me, might impact you very differently because there'slots of other factors that surround that, support networks and everything.
So it's really, it's one of those things that is so important to have an understanding of.
I think it's more than just being trauma-informed, think it's being person-informed.
It's recognising and spending time to understand a person and actually where they've comefrom.

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And I think when you align with kindness, think is, kindness has given people time aswell.
And I think you need to give people time to understand their story, where they've comefrom, what they're experiencing and how that could impact decisions or conversations you
have with people.
It doesn't mean you always get it right.
And I think that's the other thing, that's where that courage aspect comes from becauseactually sometimes you just have to take a moment and it doesn't mean you get it right but

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then I think it's being courageous enough to recognise and reflect on yourself andactually, and sometimes you do hold your hands up and I think that's okay as well, we're
all learning and actually it's just about being self-aware, reflective practice.
Like I said, with trauma-informed approaches.
It is recognising how somebody's experience can impact them now, but also have an impacton their future.

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And I think it's being courageous enough to recognise, like say, everyone's different,which is a fantastic thing, because the world would be boring if we weren't.
And actually not seeing that as a negative, that's a really positive.
But with that means sometimes we have to apply different approaches.
So when we talk about things like behaviour policies, actually the level of consistency, Idon't think that word, the consistency, where does that come from?

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Really it's probably ourselves if we're talking about in a school setting is how weapproach children being calm all the time, listening to what the child's telling us,
whether or not that's verbally or listening through the behaviour they are displaying.
What's it trying to tell us?
That's where I think consistency comes from.
Because I think when you then apply different approaches, if it is a punitive approach,for example,

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That can't be the same for one child for another because actually you've got lots ofthings going on for that child.
So I think it's sometimes being courage and having the courage to, again, not to break thenorm, but explain the why, why you're doing something a certain way.
And I think a lot of that is because you're understanding a child's journey or a person'sjourney, understanding if there's been any trauma there, how that trauma may have affected

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them.
It's really complex, so I've probably gone off on a tangent, so apologies Tyler.
No, it's great.
And, you know, I'm not as well equipped in that area.
have taken, we call them violent threat risk assessment trainings, and I've takentraumatic event systems trainings.
And the biggest takeaway I get from it is everybody experiences it differently andeverybody will respond differently, even if it's the same event.

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we're so unique and because we're individuals, everything that's led us up to that pointwill be the reason we have a different experience.
And it's recognizing that and it's embracing that.
it's sometimes just being there and sitting with people through their tough moments andbeing present is what they need.
Because you can't fully comprehend what somebody else is going through in those moments.

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And unless they're willing to share, it's a very difficult thing to unpack.
And that's where the empathy and compassion comes from because I think if you try to applysympathy, that's when you're trying to play things down a little bit.
And actually it's about feeling with and that's where your empathy and compassion comesfrom.
Because like you say, can't, whilst you might be able to imagine, you can't feel howthey're feeling necessarily.

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Because like you said, there's so many different factors.
It's sometimes just being there with people.
It's not always about
trying to fix things because you can't always.
It's about giving that person time and trying to show that empathy of that situation.
I think for young people it's also there's times it's understanding when their bucketsfull and things like so there might be something small in isolation if you see an incident

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may happen that's relatively small that you and I might say well actually how has a childgot upset?
But actually what we're not recognizing, that is the last drip within their bucket tooverflow their bucket.
Because all the other stuff that's happening.
So whilst in isolation, it might seem quite a small incident, might seem moreinsignificant to say somebody whose buckets either empty or only half full, because they

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can deal with it.
For somebody that's their buckets full, that one little last drip, it's got to overflow atsome point.
And it could be that's the bit.
And I think it's recognizing
when that is the case for the young people and adults as well.
I think it's important to recognise that in adults.
And two things for people to understand here, and this is from the beach for training thatI was talking about earlier.

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People don't just snap like you're alluding to.
It's a, it's a series of events that we have no idea until we go back and actually analyzethe situation.
And the next thing is, is people hate.
the one up story.
When somebody is going through trauma, people hate the approach where you come in and say,well, this is the story that happened to me.
So I understand where you're coming from.

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People, people hate that.
And that needs to stop because it's totally inaccurate.
And sure, don't get me wrong.
Maybe, maybe five to 15 % of the time you might be spot on.
And that person might say, wow, okay, that's good to know.
But 90 % of the time
It's a totally different story to them.
They're going to approach it completely differently because like we just said earlier,trauma is unique to each individual and it's about understanding that to move forward to

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work with trauma.
Now segueing a little bit here to these values that they're so important with you and howyou speak.
It's so apparent that these values are so important with you as a leader of school systemsor a system of schools.
How are you bringing these values into this system?
I think a lot of it is you try to, if I think about how others have done it to me, it'sabout role modelling it.

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I think that's one of the important things.
So it's okay having a set of values, but it's about living and breathing them.
Otherwise they're just a set of words and anyone can write a set of words on a piece ofpaper.
And we talk about within our organisation, within the Raleigh Education Trust, we've gotfive C's, which are our values, which is creativity, confidence, character, curiosity and
challenge.

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And what that is, is we want to give children opportunities and adults to develop those.
Because we think if you've got confident learners, they're more likely to do well.
I think if you've got people that are curious, they're going to ask questions, which whatwe want for our young people.
If they've got the character so they can show empathy to other, they can show kindness toother, I think that's a great set of skills for them to take them beyond education into

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adulthood.
and that's what really changes the community.
So it is about how we live and breathe all those values.
So we've got those as an organization and what we say to our schools is, how do we givechildren opportunities to develop those?
And a lot of it is about how we role model ourselves.
So our policies, we try to reflect those sort of things.
And in terms of like with kindness and courage, I think a lot of it is around rolemodeling.

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And it's not about me, have I done it?
I may have done when we've done like any...
things where I've talked about where I've asked them to think about their own values, Imight have shared my values then.
But beyond that, I don't think it again, it's about just sharing a set of words.
I think it's through action.
And I think that's the important thing that it is about given through action.
I think it's recognizing, like you say, how everyone is impacted, everyone's different,which is fantastic, but how everything impacts everyone else.

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The importance of things like supervision, giving people time.
So there's little models that we've started to roll out across our organisation, thingslike with supervision, because in social care and in counselling, it's always been a thing
to have supervision.
Within education, it wasn't like that external supervision, because supervision's termsbanded around a lot, but proper supervision from a trained practitioner.

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is quite significant.
So it's something that we've been investing in our safeguarding teams, that they havesupervision, so they have that time because we recognize they will be supporting children
that have had traumatic experiences, but the impact that can have on them.
Likewise with our head teachers, we want a culture where people are looking out for eachother.
So we've tried to create mechanisms.
Another thing that in the UK there's around mental health first aid trainers and

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and there's different models of doing that.
So it's been rolled out into schools and some schools may have a champion, a mental healthfirst aid champions, for example.
What we've decided is to have the ambition that everyone's trained because actuallylooking after mental health starts with yourself.
So actually you need to have your own knowledge to look at those early signs of if you'renot feeling okay.
But then also having everyone else looking out for everyone.

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So that's the ambition.
It's difficult because obviously you can't just train everyone in one go.
be with you a big organization but so it's on a rolling program and I think by doingthings like that I'm hoping that will then those values without even saying it people
start to recognize it if that makes sense
it does.
So two things here.

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It's also important to note, one-time PD doesn't work.
And so the idea of supervision and revisiting and the continuity behind it, that's what'sgoing to really drive home the change effort that you're trying to put forward.
Now, I'm curious here, Phil, does your division on top of these five values have a missionstatement?
Yeah, one of the biggest mission is we want every young person to be seen and to feelspecial.

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And I think if we talk about that, we want to empower children through education.
That's one thing that we really want to do.
important, not just children, but families.
We know education, whilst it can't do everything, but when you talk education to thebroadest sense, that's beyond academic learning.
That's why we're looking at our five Cs.
It's about developing the whole child.
So when we talk about education, we talk about everything.

(23:26):
We don't just talk about academic learning.
So we try to do it.
But it is really important for us that our children all feel our seen and our heard.
For some of our children that go to our special schools and pupil referral units, not justour children, but nationally, there's sadly there's sometimes a negative stigma going to
accessing a different type of educational provision.

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And actually what we want to do is...
we want all our children to be seen.
So whether you go to a special school, you want that to be celebrated because that's okay,because that's what you need.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
There's nothing wrong with you going to a different setting.
So it's really important that all our children feel seen and feel heard and arecelebrated, but also they all feel special.
We want them to feel special.
We want them to feel like a sense of belonging within our schools.

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want them to feel, one thing we've done as an organization is we're really investing inenvironments.
So it's on a rolling program again.
But over the last few years, we're constantly revisiting each of our schools, whether ornot it's developing outside spaces, internal spaces.
And that will keep evolving because we keep learning and we keep working with differentprofessionals like sensory OTs, because actually how do we develop our sensory rooms to be

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the best they must be be?
And I think when our children see the value that we've put into them because we'vedeveloped environmental spaces for them, they start to feel special.
And that sounds horrible because every child should feel that.
But actually we really want them to feel, doesn't matter what school you go to, what typeof school, it doesn't matter.
You've gone to the right school for you and we want you to feel special.

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We don't want any negative stigma attached because you go to a special school.
We don't want that.
So we want you to be seen, we want you to feel special.
And so they're all really important to us.
So I suppose with our five Cs, that's something that again, it's quite on the forefront ofour website.
But if I look at it,
the words, but actually if you were to walk around our schools, people do say that.

(25:16):
They say, well, I didn't realize this, especially for one of our alternative provisionschools where children have been put in excluded, for example, they'll say, I didn't
realize it would look like this.
And it is changing those perceptions of what it is.
And we want our children and families to feel like they're valued.
And one of the things that we talk a lot about in, at least where I'm in, which isAlberta, Canada, is living your mission, vision and values and how do you live them and

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how do you action them?
Now, as as a teacher, as a, as a school principal, I could probably look at these five C'sthat you've shared and I can probably look at this mission you've shared and I can find
ways to live that and action that when you're in a central role or a role that you'retaking on yourself, you're not directly in front of students teaching.
How do you.

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take this mission and these values that are very heavily geared towards kids?
And how are you able to say, hey, I'm aligned to these, I'm living these, I'm actioningthese?
Or do you think that you should go to a point where central services has their own set ofvalues or their own mission to then support those that are in front of the kids?

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I think in terms of if we think about the five C's, so whilst they were very muchdeveloped, and I was with our CEO only the other day and we talking about them, and where
they came from and everything like that, the forefront of a school is the children.
Like I say, you can have a lovely building, but it's actually the children that bring aschool to life.
And so when the five C's were developed, it was very much around the children.

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But actually then if we take a step back, it's actually also about
developing us and following those things.
So having teachers that are confident means they're more likely to take some risks interms of their learning.
And when I say risks, if you're teaching maths, we want maths to be brought to life.
So if you feel confident about delivering maths, you might take it outside becauseactually you make it then more real life for that child and more tangible.

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actually, whilst as a central team, you're right.
And I think what we've done is everything we thought about is
is around 5C.
So one thing we've got is every year we have annual trust conference.
Every single year we focus on a theme.
So last year we were thinking about curiosity.
That was our theme where we wanted colleagues to ask themselves questions of themselvesthat would then in turn support their children in school.

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So it's how we live them at different levels.
So how we live them with our colleagues and across the organization for them to help.
that they can, I suppose, indirectly support the children.
So we're talking about, okay, so we want all our staff to feel, have that character, to bekind to each other, to show empathy to each other, and all that sort of thing.

(27:49):
So we have to do it to them and show what we mean by it how we do it.
And if there's any misunderstanding, how do we develop that?
So this is what empathy is.
So there's sympathy, but then what is empathy?
And there's really a real difference.
So we show them that sort of thing and we work with them.
So.
The Trust Conference Center is, the Trust Conference that we have every year is quitepinnacle because we live, try for at least, and it sounds, it's not just for one day, but

(28:14):
for one day we really highlight one of those values.
And that's what we keep revisiting.
this, yeah, so this year, think, yeah, thank you.
This year it is, well, next year it will be 2025.
It is around creativity.
No, it's not a challenge.
Forgive me, it creativity the other year.
So it's around challenge.
So what we'll do is we'll challenge ourselves as colleagues, as adults, and then we'llobviously then with that, that will roll into the classroom.

(28:41):
And I know that I have you kind of fly in there a little off script trying to read intothe future on what's next, but it's nice to see how these values are also created for
everyone in your system, right?
Because now you're a...
getting into that inclusive setting where, you know, inclusion isn't just about the kids,it's about the teachers, it's about the principals, it's about the support staff, it's

(29:03):
about the custodians and the bus drivers.
You have these five C's that everyone can be embodying and it's about how do we embody itbecause these are what we believe are the most important things to develop the child,
right?
And if we can develop these five C's into the child, we're going to have some pretty goodchildren coming out of our system.
And so I love where that's coming from.
And what you're actually doing is you're teaching them

(29:25):
You're teaching your leadership team how to model these five C's so that when they returnto their buildings, they're actioning these five C's in front of the people where it's
most important.
So I love that.
Now, all of these are incredible stories, which kind of brings me to the error element,which goes kind of the opposite direction.
It's the adversity we face.
And, you know, there are challenges in the work that we do, and there are pushback in someof the things that we try to do that we might think are incredible and realize, well,

(29:51):
maybe it's not or
Maybe it is and people are just reluctant to change because it's inevitable and peoplehate it.
Now, from a personal side of it, what are some lessons you've learned when dealing withadversity as a leader?
I think like say the change is a good one actually because like say you can go intodifferent settings.

(30:12):
So if I think about settings I've gone in that may have not been in where we'd want themto be and I think it's about when I first went into that opportunity that when I had that
opportunity to go into a school to support I suppose school improvement my biggestlearning curve was actually there was a recognition that actually those colleagues were
doing actually a really really good job actually.

(30:32):
It was just sometimes it just needed redirecting.
It wasn't going in and rewriting everything and saying everything you did was previouslywasn't good enough.
I think it was going in with the intention.
Everyone had best intentions and I really believe that.
And whether or not that's naive, I don't know.
But I really believe that anyone that's come into education has done it for all the rightreasons.

(30:53):
They all want to make the difference to these children.
I think sometimes things can get lost along the way and it is about just
creating those pathways again and sometimes just making it bit clearer in terms of theroute to it.
And I think bringing in change, learning and sometimes you learn the hard ways.
I think in an ideal world when you go into any school improvement, unless it's anything inrelation to say safeguarding, I think what it is is it's about giving an opportunity to

(31:18):
listen, hear of what's going on and understand why decisions may have been madepreviously.
and being respectful of them.
It doesn't mean you don't end up changing them.
I think it's very much an understanding and being respectful where they've come from.
And then it's about working with colleagues to show the why.
And there's times where I've probably gone in as a school leader more in the earlier days.

(31:38):
And again, this is why I think we're always learning and that's okay and beingself-reflective that I've gone in where I've tried to make change too quick or I've not
given the why and I've not explained it well enough.
And then somebody's spoken to me and I'm thinking, yeah, I get that.
I get where you're coming from now, why you feel a bit upset by me bringing that change.
And I understand the impact that would have had on you and how I could have done itdifferent.

(32:00):
And again, like I said, I'm very open.
I've had conversations where I've recognized it.
I remember bringing in a new way of into one of my schools in terms of quality assuring,like teaching and learning, what was going on.
And the idea was it was a very different model.
like it's through an inquiry approach where you have a certain lens.
So the quicker lesson visits are a lot quicker, but the more intense.

(32:20):
But actually what it is is you're there for not very long, but you've got a real clearfocus what you're looking for.
And it was all about best practice.
So it's actually very much rooted in development rather than trying to look for thingsthat aren't right.
It was looking for best practice, then you could share with colleagues.
And when we bought it in, I had a new member of staff who was working with me.
And this is in a previous role.
And I remember a fantastic teacher, but I remember him getting incredibly nervous andanxious about it.

(32:45):
And when we went in, was what we saw wasn't what we saw every day.
And I remember then talking to him after about it, and he just said, based on his ownprevious experiences, it just made him so incredibly nervous.
And then when I explained the purpose behind this change of how we're doing it, he said,now I get it.
And I said to them, I own that.
And I apologized to them.

(33:06):
I said, as a leader, I needed to spend more time with the preparation and recognizingprevious experiences of others.
Because in my head, when I heard the model, sounded great.
thought, staff are going to love that.
less, it's not, I'm actually thankful we've moved around, moved away from more that, Isuppose, graded learning, looking at lessons and saying that wasn't good enough.
And it's more about what was great.

(33:26):
And then that coaching sort of model to develop people.
And I think I thought as that model, this is a great step, everyone will love it.
But what I didn't recognize was because it was more intense and there was more peoplegoing into a room to look for this real focused element that the nervous that created for
that colleague.
And I then I recognized that and I took that on board thinking, right next time, if I doanything like this, I have to spend that time with that change.

(33:49):
So it's sometimes I think changes can be difficult because like you say, not everyonewants to change.
Sometimes people don't recognise the changes needed.
So again, it's helping them see that.
And you can sometimes do that by getting a few people on board with trailblazers and thenyou start rolling it out.
Again, I think it's about being very honest in terms of setting a vision where you want itto go.
Because I think that's okay as well.

(34:10):
think that's okay.
And some people, and it does happen, I've worked with schools where some people have said,well, you've set a vision where you've come in and this is what I believe.
They have different beliefs.
So they might want something slightly differently.
And they've said, look, I'm going to leave.
I said, that's okay.
But it's all done in a kind way.
It doesn't need to be done in any other way.
They've made a choice, but you've been very clear of where you want a school or a visionto head.

(34:32):
That comes back to an old saying of surround yourself with friends that are going to bringyou up, not bring you down.
Right.
And so when you're clear about what you stand for and you're clear about what that valueis, it's easy to make sure you're surrounding yourself by people that are aligned to that.
And it's very easy to see people that aren't aligned with those.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Everybody's different.
That's what we come back to, but it's recognizing that sometimes

(34:54):
places aren't best fits and you have to part ways and move on and that's okay.
And that's, that's, that's okay.
And both parties will end up being okay.
They just have to find, they just have to find where their values are aligned and youknow, very, we're doing something very similar in art and as well in terms of implementing
a, it's kind of a supervision.
It's kind of just a, Hey, let's make sure we're doing best practices type of thing and inmodeling and walking around and checking and connecting with each other.

(35:18):
And very, very similar to your story.
You hear about this thing that's so exciting and you know is impactful and you know, ifyou just roll it out right now, it's, it should in theory be the best thing ever for
people.
But the reality is, is those past experiences bring people anxiety, bring peoplenervousness, bring people resistance and everyone will respond differently.

(35:41):
I, know, I can think of 10 changes that I could go back to my building with and say, Hey,we're going to do this.
And I'm going to have one staff member gung ho excited because they.
are aligned with where my head is at and they've had a similar story and I'm going to havea teacher that's been under evaluation in the past and they're going to look at this and
go, my god, this is this is them coming after me now they're ready for it, right?
And everyone's going to respond differently.

(36:02):
So it's important as you're mentioning to think about what are the past experiences of thestory I'm bringing in, which is very like seven habits ish of of you know, the seek first
to understand then to be understood type of mindset.
So thank you for sharing that.
Now,
In your role as well, we talked to Aaron Element here and you facing adversity throughthese changes you're trying to bring in.

(36:24):
But a large part of your role is also helping people that you lead overcome their ownadversities.
And so what steps are you taking or how are you actioning, supporting people through theirown adversity?
And again, like I say, as an organisation, the first thing is that we're trying to createa culture where sometimes it's okay to not be okay.

(36:46):
And I think that stems through everything.
If somebody needs something, whether that's a child or an adult, that's okay.
That's all right.
We'll support you.
Because I think that's, again, trying to how we want to wrap around our children, ourcommunities, then as when we talk about communities, that's also the adult community.
And that's very different to say that everyone can have what they want.

(37:07):
That's very different, isn't it?
I think it's very much around, if there's something happening for you, we'll support youas best we can.
If there's reasonable adjustments we need to make, we'll make those reasonable adjustmentsfor you.
Because again, we recognize that whilst education is a significant part of somebody'slife, they've also got lives outside of the working life.

(37:28):
And again, you have to recognise that and those challenges for them and you work throughit.
And I say, think the element of where we've brought in the supervision model, we'vebrought in collaborative networks, can we give people opportunity to talk and communicate
and share challenges that they may be facing, whether they're personal challenges orwhether or not they're work-related challenges.

(37:48):
because it's about opportunity to work through those problems together so you don't feellike you're on your own.
And I think over the years I've been at the Trust, one thing I've seen is terms of thatlevel of collaboration between our schools, whilst from a distance point of view, they're
not massively far between each other, but there are different types of setting andpreviously they probably wouldn't have worked together, even though they're part of the

(38:10):
Trust.
What we wanted is one big passion of our CEO.
he really wanted to bring that level of collaboration together.
We're all in this together.
We're a family of schools.
We're not on our own.
So the head teachers meet on a regular basis in our extended leadership.
So they come together where we share best practice.
We talk about the challenge and we work it through.
Like I said earlier, they have a supervision model where they working together.

(38:33):
Doesn't matter in completely different settings from mainstream to special to alternativeprovision.
They're all talking about the challenge you've got.
We've got a series of collaborative networks, so where our literacy leads will cometogether, where our maths leads will come together, science.
We've got a wellbeing group where they come together and they talk about the challengesthat's faced within school, but also the good stuff that's happening, that's supporting

(38:55):
wellbeing.
So we're learning from that.
we don't want anyone to feel on their own.
And that's really important.
So there's a sense of belonging.
We hope they feel it at their school.
but we actually want them to feel part of the Raleigh Education Trust.
And that's why the big thing around the conference we have together is so important to us,it's that one day a year, as well as other opportunities, but that one day a year that

(39:19):
everyone, from every single role, is together.
And we have a ward ceremony at the end where the children have nominated and we celebratewith everyone, and they're all together.
And what I've noticed over the years is we've done that, probably in the early days,schools would sit with their own schools.
but now people are sitting on the tables when they arrive and mingling together and havingconversations.

(39:40):
And then so I saw the So-and-so Collaborative Network, how's it going with you?
And I think that's really helped people not to feel alone.
And I think then there's greater opportunity if there's somebody, even if it's a privatematter, they feel like they've probably got somebody they can go to.
It's not just the one person, they feel like they've got a family to go to outside oftheir actual family.

(40:01):
And you have to be the bad guy that comes in after and says, don't sit on the tables.
We have chairs for a reason.
We eat on those things.
No.
you know what, Phil, you took the words kind of out of my mouth.
was going to segue here to talk about the need of collaboration and to talk about, youknow, people never having to do things on their own and the importance of seeking out that
community.
So I'm going to take a moment here and say, you know what, alchemists, if you're listeningto this and you're thinking change is hard, adversity is hard.

(40:24):
I have a YouTube video out there.
It's five and a half minutes long.
It's called adversity to opportunity.
Go give it a look.
give it a watch, it talks about how to make that transition on how, when you're beingfaced with this adversity, how to take it and turn it around to an opportunity as well.
And Phil, we have unpacked so many things in just this conversation.
I usually go from an earth element of talking core values to an air element of talkingabout the adversity to the water element, which brings about change.

(40:48):
But we've talked so much about how that change process can already come forward that I'mgoing to skip ahead and get into the fire element, which talks about
our decision-making and the risks and those bold moves.
And I'll jump to, you know, opening a new school and leading institutions throughtransformation.
It does involve bold risks and doing the things you do.
We talked about that, that value of courage.

(41:11):
So what are some of the most significant risks you've taken in your career where you hadto lean on courage and what did it teach you?
I'd say you touch on the opening of the two schools, I think.
Whilst obviously I was very much supported by the multi-admitra, I was working with at thetime in terms of that, was some throughout was unbelievably exciting.

(41:33):
I feel incredibly privileged to be able to have that opportunity, have a brand newbuilding, design it with the children in terms of what that would look like.
I think the one thing that I recognize very quickly was difficult was around thecommunity.
So when we opened one school in particular, because it was a brand new building, you hadto do like a consultation.
with the local community and what I realised was when I thought when we were opening thesefantastic schools I thought everyone would welcome it and what I found was because of I

(42:01):
suppose the type of school it was and some of the young people that we were working withthat wasn't always the case early on and we had quite a
challenging and it probably surprised me and I remember that you're doing a consultationwhere some of the local community didn't probably want us there and it was really hard as
a leader to stand there and I'm thinking wow I probably wasn't expecting that and it wasthen about okay so whilst the school was going to happen what I thought I wanted to do is

(42:29):
I didn't want to just sit back and just go through the process and near enough be atloggerheads with a local community I wanted to understand
where that was coming from.
And I suppose I took, I'm not took a risk, I tried to, I suppose I took a step tounderstand a little bit more around the community and go again.
So we did a followup consultation where we invited them again, but this time I wasprepared.

(42:50):
I knew what I was expecting.
Cause when we, cause we were doing it for two schools, one was completely different to theother.
And what I found very quickly was it wasn't they were opposed to us.
They just didn't know.
And the, it was anxiety.
There was anxiety in terms of because of the children we working with who had beenpermanently excluded because of way I suppose sometimes children like that are portrayed
in the media and things like that and that stigma attached to them sadly.

(43:15):
People were worried and they were worried about what it was and so I invited the communityin again and I thought this time it was more around showing them what our children can do
and do achieve and who our children are and
what some of their life experiences have been like.
So it was very much trying to embrace that.

(43:36):
Now it could have gone wrong again, it could have been they still didn't embrace us, butvery quickly I recognized it was just they didn't know.
And we opened their doors to the community throughout the build so they could come andlook around.
We opened them to our open day where there was children there and that could havebackfired because again, there could have been comments made, but they weren't.

(43:57):
was very different and one.
gentleman who was, I won't share his name, but he was probably an older generation.
He, when he first came, he was quite vocal about us going there, talked about things, itwasn't like this in my day, all those sort of comments.
And then I said to him, but it was, I'd say it was just very different.
It was just very different in terms of where these children were educated.

(44:17):
They probably weren't educated in your local community.
They are your community children though.
And actually what they felt was probably even further sense of rejection.
because actually they were educated in a different community miles away.
And actually how that may have made them feel.
And then guess what?
They became adults and how they would have seen your local community, a community thatmaybe rejected them.

(44:39):
And he goes, I never thought of it like that.
And I said, what, these are your children.
He actually became one of our biggest advocates from, and it was more about just spending,again, spending time with people and being, I suppose, trying to show the courage to...
pushed back a little bit, being respectful, but challenged some of their norms because itwas more, they just didn't know.

(45:01):
It wasn't they were being oppositional to us, they just didn't know.
And I think what happened was that the community then did wrap around us and like I say,this particular gentleman was fantastic, became one of our biggest advocates and he wanted
to know more and he sat on different forums that he invited myself and colleagues to goand talk about our children because he says, I think it's really important messages

(45:21):
because I don't think others know.
So yeah.

(46:28):
I don't know if I can.
It's interesting, like I said, I've not done this before, up until this morning, like Isaid to you earlier.
yeah, I suppose it's just like self-reflections and things like that, isn't it?
it's, yeah, it's when you get time, because oftentimes within education, let's be honest,it's difficult to get time and sometimes reflect.

(46:49):
And actually, I think that was one of reasons I was keen to
to it.
think again I wanted to an opportunity to talk about our community of schools and ourfamilies and our children and the challenges that some of our children have that or the
stigma attached to them and I think it was really important but yeah I've got no plans towrite a book I just like I enjoy what I'm doing not yet.

(47:28):
I think the first thing is, I think you touched on that, creating safety that they feellike they can.
So if we think from a teaching and learning point of view, it's ensuring that colleagueswho are delivering whatever subject it is, feel as confident as they possibly can and
we've supported that.
So they feel whether or not it's through CPD, whether or not that is by any differentresources.
I think that is the first point.

(47:48):
I think that's one of the first point.
But then also creating a culture where you want them to take risks and it's okay to takerisks.
So when we're talking about coming in, we want them to invite us in, come and have a look,we're gonna do maths in the playground.
We want them to feel like they can do that and do art and recognise it won't always goright, but actually it's amazing that you gave it a go.
so I think there's two things, making them feel confident in terms of what we're askingthem to teach and how do we support them.

(48:13):
So again, listening to them, because every member of staff is on their own journey attheir own stage.
I think it's recognizing the Hinks, Kim Scott sums it up brilliantly, recognizing theimportance of developing your superstars, but also your rock stars, because there'll be
people that are really ambitious and we launched our professional development revisedprogram only last summer.
And we wanted a program like our Grown Leaders program where people can work through it ifthey're ambitious to be a leader.

(48:38):
But we also wanted to recognize those people that if you want to do your role, but just doit really
well or do it better, we want to develop you, which are your rock stars.
And whether that's a support member of staff that's in the classroom, administrationsupport at the front of the school that are welcoming the families, how do we help them do
it best?
Because actually, if that's what they love doing and they're happy doing it, we don't wantto just say we only develop the ones who are ambitious to go through like a more of a

(49:04):
journey, because that's often where professional development is.
We want it to be aimed at everyone.
So I think the first thing is just making sure people feel confident to take risks.
And that sometimes takes time because again, you've got to respect previous experiences.
And I think that's part of it as well.
Being mindful that you'll have some that will take some great calculated risks withteaching and learning and others aren't confident yet.

(49:29):
And you can't just say, why aren't you doing that?
It's recognizing why they feel they can't do it at moment in time and then supporting themto get to that point.
whether that's doing some more peer work, peer observations, working with people so theycan see where it's possible.
But it is, think it's about creating those environments where people feel able to takerisks and they're not gonna be penalised if they take a risk, if it's a calculated

(49:51):
informed risk and especially around teaching and learning that they've taken anopportunity to help a child learn differently.
to bring it to a life more and it's not gone well.
I remember teaching loads of lessons that you think, I'll take a risk on that and that wasterrible, I won't do that again.
But I think that's okay.
I think that's all right.
You learn from it.

(51:15):
I think there isn't like so I've never had a plan in terms of from a career point of viewI haven't I love what I do and I think it's about just embracing everything every
challenge that comes our way and I'm trying to flip the narrative and whilst it might be adifficult situation actually what's the opportunities so I from a personal point of view I
don't have any like

(51:36):
Beyond that, I love what I do now.
just want, I want, I suppose I've got an ideal world of what I'd like the world to be likeor local communities.
And I think if I can contribute that or help in any way, then I'll try to seek thoseopportunities.
So I suppose it is just seeking opportunities that benefit our local communities, ourchildren, our families, but also beyond that as well.

(51:56):
Cause like I I think one thing the pandemic
did teach us that actually how it did in a weird way bring everyone together, everyone,because everyone was experiencing the same whilst the experience was different because
everyone interpreted it slightly different and there was differences.
It did bring people together and I think it's so important that we continue to look outfor each other and the communities, respect everyone's experiences.

(52:23):
But like I say, just, yeah.
Just look at any challenge and try and find the opportunity to try and improve.
Probably too old now at 45.
So yeah, probably a bit old.
Probably I haven't got the...

(52:44):
Yeah, yeah, never know.
Yeah, thickness levels probably aren't there now as well.
So yeah.
Over LinkedIn, think LinkedIn is how you and I obviously connected.
think LinkedIn is a good platform.
I think it's a great platform from professional point of view and connections.

(53:08):
So I'd say LinkedIn, yes please.

(53:34):
Wow, actionable advice.
I think the first thing is I would listen and try to make informed decisions.
just listen to, especially if you're going to make a change to anything, just listen towhere it's coming from, make it informed.
Don't make a rash decision, make an informed decision.
And then the other thing is I think the importance of recognising, especially for peopleearly in their career, every interaction is like an intervention.

(53:55):
and you don't realise the impact it has and you may never even see the impact when youwork with young people.
In the five, six, seven years that you're working with them, you might not think you'rehaving any impact whatsoever, but it's actually as you get throughout your career, you do
come across people that you used to teach and they remember an interaction that you mighthave thought was so incredibly small, but it had such a profound impact on them.

(54:19):
And that could have been just a smile, could have been just checking in that they're okaywhen it wasn't...
okay for them at that moment in time and they just remember that because you're the onlyperson that did check in with them.
So I think because it is a difficult working education, it's hard but you are making adifference every single day.

(55:24):
Thank you very much for having me Tyler, appreciate that.

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Episode 51: What a Top Leader has to Say about Positive Cultures (wtih Phil Willott)

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