February 10, 2025 • 20 mins
How can LGBTIQ+ spaces be more inclusive and welcoming to everyone in our community – not just the most privileged?
Follow The JOIN Project team as they explain how to better support homeless and migrant queer people seeking community, opportunities and joy.
Co-produced by Ahed, Aiden, Casey, Charlie, Mazen, Sophrane, Tulsi, Violet, Wura, Xolisani and Zarith. Facilitation and Podcast Design Support: Siobhán McGuirk and Liv Wynter. Host: Anne Onwusiri. Production and Editing: Sam Whelan-Curtin. Podcast Artwork/Illustrations: BOE (@boestudio.s)
For more information on the JOIN Project and our Toolkit, as well as on the Friends of the Joiners Arms Campaign, please visit www.friendsjoinerarms.com
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Episode Transcript
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Content warning (00:00):
In this episode, we will discuss topics including racism,
homophobia and transphobia,as well as experiences of stigma,
discrimination,threatening behavior and exclusion
within queer spaces.
Welcome to the JOIN podcastfrom Friends of the Joiners Arms.
(00:21):
My name is Anne Onwusiri,a member of the campaign,
and we're here to share the voicesand insights of members
of our LGBTIQ+ communitywho are oo often sidelined
as we discuss building queer spacesthat are accessible and affirming for all.
We are here to focus on the experiencesof trans and queer people
who are homeless, and those who have movedto the UK from elsewhere.
(00:44):
People who have experiencedBritain's hostile state policies
and environments first hand, andwho know what it takes to end exclusion.
Throughout the series, we'll discusssome of the challenges
they have faced and how this shapestheir experience of queer spaces.
We'll talk about what needs to changeso that LGBTIQ+ spaces
can be for everyone, not just privilegedmembers of our communities.
(01:08):
And how we can work to ensurethat all queer people can live safe,
fulfilling lives with secureaccommodation, money in our pockets,
access to opportunities and places to gowhere we feel safe,
loved and powerful.
These conversations have emergedfrom a project run
by Friends of the Joiners Arms,with community partners
(01:28):
the Outside Project,African Rainbow Family, MicroRainbow,
Mosaic LGBT+ Young PersonsTrust and Revoke.
Together, we have been working overthe past year to explore how queer spaces
can be more inclusive and welcoming,and in particular, how they can offer
more people opportunities to get involved,develop new skills and build community.
(01:50):
We're doing this workbecause queer spaces are under threat.
Between 2006 to 2022,
3 in 5 of London'sLGBTIQ+ venues closed their doors,
and those that stayed openare mostly catering to white, cisgender
gay men and other wealthiersections of the community.
Accessible queer spaces are criticalto our community.
(02:10):
Without them, people lose the abilityto form social connection,
share experiences,support each other, and access affirming
and rewarding employment,training and volunteering opportunities.
Queerpeople are also facing increased threats.
Across the UK, we’reseeing rising anti LGBTIQ+
hate crime, hate speech,discrimination and racism,
(02:31):
xenophobia and Islamophobia,including in our own queer spaces.
At the same time,the experience of low wages, insecure work
and rising living costsoverwhelmingly impacts LGBTIQ+ people,
particularly those who are trans, women,
disabled, neurodiverse,homeless, migrating,
(02:51):
people of color, or peopleat the intersections of those identities.
In this first episode, we will hearfrom Sophrane, who also goes by Sophie
(she/her), Wura (they/them) acommunity
organiser and musician at Tribe,
Charlie (he/him),Aiden (he/him) and Violet (she/her).
They'll tell us about the JOIN projectitself, some of the key barriers
(03:15):
to queer spaces that they have identifiedand what can come next.
Welcome everyone.
And to start with Sophie,can you tell us about the JOIN project?
Like, what are we doing here?
The JOIN project has been a project
about opening a new venue for LGBTQ+.
But this time,they're planning to do something different
(03:36):
because they’ve been workingwith different organizations,
and they want it to be very inclusive.
And breaking downall the barriers, discrimination.
You want certain facilities,but they are not there.
You feel likeyou can't really express like who you are.
While they say it's a queervenue, is a centre for...
(03:58):
but you still feel likeyou cannot be yourself.
So this time the Joiner Arms is differentbecause they've been asking
different people what will be likethe experience of the queer venue.
And we all came with thissame sort of things that were lacking in
the actual venues.
(04:18):
And Wura,
how could we help break down the barriers?
I guessnumber one, these kinds of conversations.
Number two, like putting more
effort towards like workshopping,like your ways of working,
like just because one wayof working in an organization
or like amongst a collective is working,doesn't mean that it can't be better.
(04:40):
I think there's so many experiencesthat in this like
queer landscape that need platforming.
And I think that in the same way
that they need platforming,they need listening to.
So I think, like queer peoplefrom different backgrounds
and intentionally listen,don't just consume queer voices,
really just take time to listen to thembecause it's like, if you listen now,
(05:04):
you don't have to like,grieve in the future.
To draw my experience,like something I find within queer
communities is that they definitelycan be quite hierarchal,
in terms of thinking
about race and gender and abilityand that sort of thing.
And I think a lot of thatis to do with education
and like people understandingkind of their place and their privilege.
(05:28):
Like, yes, we are all queer, but there islike intersectionality within that.
Could you maybe speak about like whatmaybe like intersectionality means to you?
And in terms of when it comes to likeeducation and understanding
one's place in an environment.
So say it's like on a night outor like in a cafe or something.
Yeah.
(05:48):
I think that if people want to claimrevolution and claim revolutionary
politics, they have to understand thatrevolution comes from like the bottom up.
And so you really have to
prioritize the voices and the experiencesthat are not given enough space
so that everybody could benefit from this,
specifically thosewho have been marginalized the most.
But I think that in relation to queerspace is it's like, I don't know,
(06:11):
you really have to prioritizethose voices is all I really feel like.
You can't really have a white gay
man leading the whole of like, a space
and like having agency overother people's experiences,
but not having people like black, trans,
dark skinnedspecifically queer people, people of like,
(06:36):
like from the global Southor just from like colonized places.
You need to have those voices in the room
whenever you're making decisionsabout queer life.
When people gather together
to make like spaces,like you really just need to realize that,
yes, you're queer,but there's different levels of queerness
and there's different levelsof marginalization,
and it's not a bad thing to acknowledgethat you have privilege in a space.
(06:59):
It literally gives you the toolsto like, learn more
and to make sure that everyone is heardand feel safe and feels,
you know.
And Sophiewhat's your experience of queer venues
and nightlife at the moment,like how do you engage with those spaces.
The nightlife - some of them are good,some of them are...
(07:19):
Bear in mind, when you are new somewhere,
you'll arrive to a placeyou don't really know the people.
If you don't have someone to say hi,welcome,
you feel like sitting in your cornerand okay, I hope they won't see me,
I hope and I've been going out sometimesbut coming back I do feel quite scared.
(07:39):
As long as you're in the venue, it’syour bubble, you're safe,
but once you have to go somewhereand you have to come back
home, coming back home, how do you feel?
Do you feel safe?
So that has been the big problem for me.
I always say this and I,
I kind of get tired of saying this,but why don't people have Uber funds
whenever or transport fundswhenever they have like night events?
(08:04):
Just knowing how dangerouseven a lot of these party districts,
whether it be Dalston or Hackneyor any of these places,
when like they're a lot of the timethere's just danger around the corner.
Even though Dalston is like mad
gentrified right now, it's still like,isn't that safe for queer people
at night and things like that.
And I think that, like, peoplereally need to put more effort towards
(08:26):
materially supporting the queer peoplethat they say that they care about.
Thanks Wura.
And I just want to bring in Aidenand Charlie.
What would you like to see in termsof being able to tackle stigma and that
feeling of threat or something happeningwhen you do go out and socialize,
what would you like to seeput in place by venues?
Yeah, I mean, we go out a lot.
(08:47):
We're like definitely social people.
We go to like clubs and stuff like that.
I think a lot of alternative placeswe have felt quite comfortable,
but there's been multiple instanceswhere we've been like
dragged out of bathroomsand like screamed out
and just verbally harassed and stufflike that for doing essentially nothing.
And that, I mean, that'sthe main issue, I would say, is threat
(09:09):
I think, yes, those kind of examples
have kind of driven us tomaybe want to share,
like our lived experiences and point outsome of the issues
that we kind ofwant to see spaces tackle more.
In terms of clubbingis pretty much been the exact same.
Yeah, for my experience just hasn't beenvery safe, hasn't been very pleasant.
There's always that,
(09:31):
there's always a chancethat something could happen,
like something unpleasant could happenand just make the night
not feel really not really safeor not really comfortable.
That's why we're sharing our thoughts.
To stop it from happening to other people.
This future space. That would be nice.
What would you like to see in terms of,like being able to tackle stigma
and that feeling of like threator something happening when you do go out
(09:55):
and socialize, like, what would you liketo see put in place by venues.
Just more educated stafffor sure would be really good.
They're usually the ones, I’dsay probably ones have the most
like uncomfortable experiences with,they just don't know,
when it comesto different people's identities and like
how people like dressor look it just for some reason, sends off
(10:18):
like warning signals
to them being like,
oh, this personshould not be in this place
or something like that, and it justmakes them react like such a strange way.
So just more staffeducation would be nice,
I'd say like in all spacesthat's very important.
I would say as well, open support.
There's a few pubs and bars and stuffwe've been to where they have
(10:39):
like a gay flagor trans stickers about and,
you know, you know, in those spacesyou're safe and you can do what
you wantthe same way that a cis person can.
The same way that you should be able to.
Yeah. You just don't feel, as much...
it’s the question - amI going to have a good night?
Can I go out and can I have a good timewhile doing that within my presence and
(11:02):
the people around me?
Really important
things to think about Charlieand tell me what's the impact of
not having a safe space or even signifiersthat a place is a safe space?
What can the impact of that be?
Thinking about going on a night outor even day to day?
How does that make you feel?
There's definitely this, like,
(11:22):
air of intensity, you know,it's like you can't, like, relax,
going to certain settingsbecause you don't know how,
what kind of nightyou're going to be having or
what's going to be the end resultof going out and everything like that,
or what peopleyou're going to come across.
It's it'slike you want to be able to go to a place,
it could be any sort of social eventor any sort of gathering,
(11:44):
and you want to knowthat you're going to be welcomed.
Like people are going to feel like opento bringing new people in.
But yeah, it just it's not it's not funalways having this like caution.
Whenever you step into a new place,you want to be able to walk in being like,
this is going to be a good timerather than being, so aware
and, just on your toesas soon as you walk into a place.
(12:06):
Yeah.
Before we had Mosaic we had each other.
And that was the only trans
friend or influence either of us had.
It's nice to have that,but it's it's dangerous as well.
Not knowingyour people are out there and not having
some safe outside influences.
(12:27):
It really does make a difference.
It doesn't...
you know,everything feels so much less dramatic.
Essentially, you just you can just be.
Spaces like thatthey are just fully so welcoming.
Definitely feel very lucky
knowing at least one personwho can share experiences similar to mine.
(12:48):
And I can't imagine, like,there's definitely people
who can't say the same,and I can't imagine how like lonely it is.
I definitely felt that waywhen I was like younger, trying to
to find peoplewho shared a similar experience to me.
But I definitely I'm happier, like now,and I definitely want to see
that happening for more peopletrying to find like a person
(13:08):
they can relate toand like a place they can talk about,
the things that they're feeling.
And Violet, when we were chattingbefore we started recording,
you mentioned having a discussionaround making spaces accessible.
What does accessibility mean to you?
And for a queer space?
First off, accessibilityof being able to get there,
(13:28):
with monetary restrictions
and just general problems of travel
and a lot of places have like,you have to pay to get in
or you have to payto do anything in there,
which makes it inaccessiblefor anyone who is homeless, can't work,
or is just struggling financially,
(13:51):
but also for accessibility has to besomewhere where, like someone who is
wheelchair bound can get to, or someone
who just generally struggles to walk
but also needs to focuson neurodivergency.
Some neurodivergenciescause aversions to loud noises.
(14:13):
So if it's constantly blaring loud music,
the moment you step through the door,that's going to turn a lot of people away.
If there aren't safe spacesthat are accessible,
then all the peoplewho will struggle to access them
will not have a sense of community,so they'll start feeling alone.
(14:33):
If anything happens like, say,
they experienced some form of homophobia,transphobia.
They have no one to talk toand relate their experiences
to and feel like they aren'tthe only one going through this
and also say for a lot of trans people,
it's very important to the trans community
to work with each other,
(14:54):
and if they can't access the places,
they're justthey just end up alone basically.
Thanks Violet.
I think it can have a huge impactfor lots of people
not having accessto these spaces at the moment.
And it's so important to recognizethat many disabilities aren’t visible
and that people are not always comfortabledisclosing personal information.
(15:16):
So we have to make sure
that there are ways for peopleto feel recognized and supported.
We also need to be inclusiveof people of all ages.
Some people in our communityonly get to come out later on in life
and have had a hard journeygetting to that point.
They deserve to see themselvesas belonging in that space too.
Sophie what do you think
not having safe and accessiblequeer spaces means the people?
(15:39):
All the issuewe've been talking about lately,
like they mentioned the homelessnesssituation.
Amongst people, like queerpeople, are so much at risk
of being homeless any time.
Very hidden homelessness.
From my own experience,
I couldn’t get...
(16:01):
it was so much hassle to be in the
Home Office accommodation,so I surf from couch to couch.
If I had a big news I could even be...
because I'm like,where am I going to be in two days?
Sure, like you have two days.
You live literally off your backpack.
So you make sure you have to make sure
you cannot have too much excess,because this is the space you have given.
(16:24):
I happen to sleep on
a chair like this.
Maybe I wasn't on the street,but I was homeless.
It's an emotional experience and I'mglad you feel okay to talk about that.
But yeah, I think
these venues really doneed to get like a lot better
(16:45):
with understanding, like the complexitiesof many queer people, like prioritizing
folks at the bottom, like people who like
even just like in terms of elitism...
You never knowwhere you're going to fit in.
You never know where people thinkyou're going to fit in with them.
It's just it's it's always a thoughtand that's, that's I feel like
(17:06):
people don't understand the privilegethat they have to not have a thought.
You're totally right.
And these are privilegesthat most people have.
And with the JOIN project,I guess we're trying to open people's eyes
to these privilegesand do better for everyone.
Tell me how you found itto be like part of the JOIN project.
The best part is...
for the first timeever, I’ve raised my voice on something.
(17:30):
I've been part of a project,I've been working on it.
And I saw it taking shape
and form and today we are heretalking about it.
I was able to express myself,to express my...
coming out from my comfort zonelike for once I left my bed,
not being so feelingsorry about why is my life so miserable.
(17:51):
Having to expressthat which was a big deal
and from what I took fromthere is - I'm capable.
I want to be ableto be a part of something that's like,
well organizedand really has like the best interests
of different types of queer peopleand migrants and asylum seekers at heart.
(18:14):
Seeing people who look like youin these spaces, like even, for example,
like right now, having, a blacknon-binary person interviewing me,
it does really helpwith like the experience and helping me
feel like a lot more like open
and like this is a place forme and like other folks. But
yeah, I
thinkit's just important on so many levels.
(18:37):
And I love a queer space thatacknowledges, like pain and like turmoil
and the complexities of livingand how it can affect your daily life.
Yeah,I love a place that prioritizes dreaming,
that gives, that makes dreamingnot feel like frivolous or naive,
(18:58):
but makes it feel like a necessityfor existence.
Thank you Wura.
And yeah, dreams are centralto this project, envisioning queer
utopian spaces and the changes neededin those that already exist
so that everyone can succeed and belongand be themselves.
Now we've set the scenein the coming episodes
(19:18):
we'll go deeper into our collaboratorsexperience of the asylum system
and migration, of homelessnessand housing insecurity,
of the importance of spacesthat support community and wellbeing,
the need for accessible educationand employment opportunities,
and finally arrive
at the dreams that we hold forwhat inclusive queer spaces can look like.
(19:39):
Join uson this journey, learn from these stories
and long live queer spaces.
Thank you to the City Bridge Trust,the funding arm of the City of London
Corporations charity Bridge House Estatesfor making this podcast possible.
And thanks to Siobhán McGuirkand Liv Wynter for helping us design
the series, to Sam Whelan-Curtinfor production, and to the Outside Project
(20:02):
for providing uswith space to come together.
In this episode, we will discuss topics including racism,
homophobia and transphobia,as well as experiences of stigma,
discrimination,threatening behavior and exclusion
within queer spaces.
Welcome to the JOIN podcastfrom Friends of the Joiners Arms.
(00:21):
My name is Anne Onwusiri,a member of the campaign,
and we're here to share the voicesand insights of members
of our LGBTIQ+ communitywho are oo often sidelined
as we discuss building queer spacesthat are accessible and affirming for all.
We are here to focus on the experiencesof trans and queer people
who are homeless, and those who have movedto the UK from elsewhere.
(00:44):
People who have experiencedBritain's hostile state policies
and environments first hand, andwho know what it takes to end exclusion.
Throughout the series, we'll discusssome of the challenges
they have faced and how this shapestheir experience of queer spaces.
We'll talk about what needs to changeso that LGBTIQ+ spaces
can be for everyone, not just privilegedmembers of our communities.
(01:08):
And how we can work to ensurethat all queer people can live safe,
fulfilling lives with secureaccommodation, money in our pockets,
access to opportunities and places to gowhere we feel safe,
loved and powerful.
These conversations have emergedfrom a project run
by Friends of the Joiners Arms,with community partners
(01:28):
the Outside Project,African Rainbow Family, MicroRainbow,
Mosaic LGBT+ Young PersonsTrust and Revoke.
Together, we have been working overthe past year to explore how queer spaces
can be more inclusive and welcoming,and in particular, how they can offer
more people opportunities to get involved,develop new skills and build community.
(01:50):
We're doing this workbecause queer spaces are under threat.
Between 2006 to 2022,
3 in 5 of London'sLGBTIQ+ venues closed their doors,
and those that stayed openare mostly catering to white, cisgender
gay men and other wealthiersections of the community.
Accessible queer spaces are criticalto our community.
(02:10):
Without them, people lose the abilityto form social connection,
share experiences,support each other, and access affirming
and rewarding employment,training and volunteering opportunities.
Queerpeople are also facing increased threats.
Across the UK, we’reseeing rising anti LGBTIQ+
hate crime, hate speech,discrimination and racism,
(02:31):
xenophobia and Islamophobia,including in our own queer spaces.
At the same time,the experience of low wages, insecure work
and rising living costsoverwhelmingly impacts LGBTIQ+ people,
particularly those who are trans, women,
disabled, neurodiverse,homeless, migrating,
(02:51):
people of color, or peopleat the intersections of those identities.
In this first episode, we will hearfrom Sophrane, who also goes by Sophie
(she/her), Wura (they/them) acommunity
organiser and musician at Tribe,
Charlie (he/him),Aiden (he/him) and Violet (she/her).
They'll tell us about the JOIN projectitself, some of the key barriers
(03:15):
to queer spaces that they have identifiedand what can come next.
Welcome everyone.
And to start with Sophie,can you tell us about the JOIN project?
Like, what are we doing here?
The JOIN project has been a project
about opening a new venue for LGBTQ+.
But this time,they're planning to do something different
(03:36):
because they’ve been workingwith different organizations,
and they want it to be very inclusive.
And breaking downall the barriers, discrimination.
You want certain facilities,but they are not there.
You feel likeyou can't really express like who you are.
While they say it's a queervenue, is a centre for...
(03:58):
but you still feel likeyou cannot be yourself.
So this time the Joiner Arms is differentbecause they've been asking
different people what will be likethe experience of the queer venue.
And we all came with thissame sort of things that were lacking in
the actual venues.
(04:18):
And Wura,
how could we help break down the barriers?
I guessnumber one, these kinds of conversations.
Number two, like putting more
effort towards like workshopping,like your ways of working,
like just because one wayof working in an organization
or like amongst a collective is working,doesn't mean that it can't be better.
(04:40):
I think there's so many experiencesthat in this like
queer landscape that need platforming.
And I think that in the same way
that they need platforming,they need listening to.
So I think, like queer peoplefrom different backgrounds
and intentionally listen,don't just consume queer voices,
really just take time to listen to thembecause it's like, if you listen now,
(05:04):
you don't have to like,grieve in the future.
To draw my experience,like something I find within queer
communities is that they definitelycan be quite hierarchal,
in terms of thinking
about race and gender and abilityand that sort of thing.
And I think a lot of thatis to do with education
and like people understandingkind of their place and their privilege.
(05:28):
Like, yes, we are all queer, but there islike intersectionality within that.
Could you maybe speak about like whatmaybe like intersectionality means to you?
And in terms of when it comes to likeeducation and understanding
one's place in an environment.
So say it's like on a night outor like in a cafe or something.
Yeah.
(05:48):
I think that if people want to claimrevolution and claim revolutionary
politics, they have to understand thatrevolution comes from like the bottom up.
And so you really have to
prioritize the voices and the experiencesthat are not given enough space
so that everybody could benefit from this,
specifically thosewho have been marginalized the most.
But I think that in relation to queerspace is it's like, I don't know,
(06:11):
you really have to prioritizethose voices is all I really feel like.
You can't really have a white gay
man leading the whole of like, a space
and like having agency overother people's experiences,
but not having people like black, trans,
dark skinnedspecifically queer people, people of like,
(06:36):
like from the global Southor just from like colonized places.
You need to have those voices in the room
whenever you're making decisionsabout queer life.
When people gather together
to make like spaces,like you really just need to realize that,
yes, you're queer,but there's different levels of queerness
and there's different levelsof marginalization,
and it's not a bad thing to acknowledgethat you have privilege in a space.
(06:59):
It literally gives you the toolsto like, learn more
and to make sure that everyone is heardand feel safe and feels,
you know.
And Sophiewhat's your experience of queer venues
and nightlife at the moment,like how do you engage with those spaces.
The nightlife - some of them are good,some of them are...
(07:19):
Bear in mind, when you are new somewhere,
you'll arrive to a placeyou don't really know the people.
If you don't have someone to say hi,welcome,
you feel like sitting in your cornerand okay, I hope they won't see me,
I hope and I've been going out sometimesbut coming back I do feel quite scared.
(07:39):
As long as you're in the venue, it’syour bubble, you're safe,
but once you have to go somewhereand you have to come back
home, coming back home, how do you feel?
Do you feel safe?
So that has been the big problem for me.
I always say this and I,
I kind of get tired of saying this,but why don't people have Uber funds
whenever or transport fundswhenever they have like night events?
(08:04):
Just knowing how dangerouseven a lot of these party districts,
whether it be Dalston or Hackneyor any of these places,
when like they're a lot of the timethere's just danger around the corner.
Even though Dalston is like mad
gentrified right now, it's still like,isn't that safe for queer people
at night and things like that.
And I think that, like, peoplereally need to put more effort towards
(08:26):
materially supporting the queer peoplethat they say that they care about.
Thanks Wura.
And I just want to bring in Aidenand Charlie.
What would you like to see in termsof being able to tackle stigma and that
feeling of threat or something happeningwhen you do go out and socialize,
what would you like to seeput in place by venues?
Yeah, I mean, we go out a lot.
(08:47):
We're like definitely social people.
We go to like clubs and stuff like that.
I think a lot of alternative placeswe have felt quite comfortable,
but there's been multiple instanceswhere we've been like
dragged out of bathroomsand like screamed out
and just verbally harassed and stufflike that for doing essentially nothing.
And that, I mean, that'sthe main issue, I would say, is threat
(09:09):
I think, yes, those kind of examples
have kind of driven us tomaybe want to share,
like our lived experiences and point outsome of the issues
that we kind ofwant to see spaces tackle more.
In terms of clubbingis pretty much been the exact same.
Yeah, for my experience just hasn't beenvery safe, hasn't been very pleasant.
There's always that,
(09:31):
there's always a chancethat something could happen,
like something unpleasant could happenand just make the night
not feel really not really safeor not really comfortable.
That's why we're sharing our thoughts.
To stop it from happening to other people.
This future space. That would be nice.
What would you like to see in terms of,like being able to tackle stigma
and that feeling of like threator something happening when you do go out
(09:55):
and socialize, like, what would you liketo see put in place by venues.
Just more educated stafffor sure would be really good.
They're usually the ones, I’dsay probably ones have the most
like uncomfortable experiences with,they just don't know,
when it comesto different people's identities and like
how people like dressor look it just for some reason, sends off
(10:18):
like warning signals
to them being like,
oh, this personshould not be in this place
or something like that, and it justmakes them react like such a strange way.
So just more staffeducation would be nice,
I'd say like in all spacesthat's very important.
I would say as well, open support.
There's a few pubs and bars and stuffwe've been to where they have
(10:39):
like a gay flagor trans stickers about and,
you know, you know, in those spacesyou're safe and you can do what
you wantthe same way that a cis person can.
The same way that you should be able to.
Yeah. You just don't feel, as much...
it’s the question - amI going to have a good night?
Can I go out and can I have a good timewhile doing that within my presence and
(11:02):
the people around me?
Really important
things to think about Charlieand tell me what's the impact of
not having a safe space or even signifiersthat a place is a safe space?
What can the impact of that be?
Thinking about going on a night outor even day to day?
How does that make you feel?
There's definitely this, like,
(11:22):
air of intensity, you know,it's like you can't, like, relax,
going to certain settingsbecause you don't know how,
what kind of nightyou're going to be having or
what's going to be the end resultof going out and everything like that,
or what peopleyou're going to come across.
It's it'slike you want to be able to go to a place,
it could be any sort of social eventor any sort of gathering,
(11:44):
and you want to knowthat you're going to be welcomed.
Like people are going to feel like opento bringing new people in.
But yeah, it just it's not it's not funalways having this like caution.
Whenever you step into a new place,you want to be able to walk in being like,
this is going to be a good timerather than being, so aware
and, just on your toesas soon as you walk into a place.
(12:06):
Yeah.
Before we had Mosaic we had each other.
And that was the only trans
friend or influence either of us had.
It's nice to have that,but it's it's dangerous as well.
Not knowingyour people are out there and not having
some safe outside influences.
(12:27):
It really does make a difference.
It doesn't...
you know,everything feels so much less dramatic.
Essentially, you just you can just be.
Spaces like thatthey are just fully so welcoming.
Definitely feel very lucky
knowing at least one personwho can share experiences similar to mine.
(12:48):
And I can't imagine, like,there's definitely people
who can't say the same,and I can't imagine how like lonely it is.
I definitely felt that waywhen I was like younger, trying to
to find peoplewho shared a similar experience to me.
But I definitely I'm happier, like now,and I definitely want to see
that happening for more peopletrying to find like a person
(13:08):
they can relate toand like a place they can talk about,
the things that they're feeling.
And Violet, when we were chattingbefore we started recording,
you mentioned having a discussionaround making spaces accessible.
What does accessibility mean to you?
And for a queer space?
First off, accessibilityof being able to get there,
(13:28):
with monetary restrictions
and just general problems of travel
and a lot of places have like,you have to pay to get in
or you have to payto do anything in there,
which makes it inaccessiblefor anyone who is homeless, can't work,
or is just struggling financially,
(13:51):
but also for accessibility has to besomewhere where, like someone who is
wheelchair bound can get to, or someone
who just generally struggles to walk
but also needs to focuson neurodivergency.
Some neurodivergenciescause aversions to loud noises.
(14:13):
So if it's constantly blaring loud music,
the moment you step through the door,that's going to turn a lot of people away.
If there aren't safe spacesthat are accessible,
then all the peoplewho will struggle to access them
will not have a sense of community,so they'll start feeling alone.
(14:33):
If anything happens like, say,
they experienced some form of homophobia,transphobia.
They have no one to talk toand relate their experiences
to and feel like they aren'tthe only one going through this
and also say for a lot of trans people,
it's very important to the trans community
to work with each other,
(14:54):
and if they can't access the places,
they're justthey just end up alone basically.
Thanks Violet.
I think it can have a huge impactfor lots of people
not having accessto these spaces at the moment.
And it's so important to recognizethat many disabilities aren’t visible
and that people are not always comfortabledisclosing personal information.
(15:16):
So we have to make sure
that there are ways for peopleto feel recognized and supported.
We also need to be inclusiveof people of all ages.
Some people in our communityonly get to come out later on in life
and have had a hard journeygetting to that point.
They deserve to see themselvesas belonging in that space too.
Sophie what do you think
not having safe and accessiblequeer spaces means the people?
(15:39):
All the issuewe've been talking about lately,
like they mentioned the homelessnesssituation.
Amongst people, like queerpeople, are so much at risk
of being homeless any time.
Very hidden homelessness.
From my own experience,
I couldn’t get...
(16:01):
it was so much hassle to be in the
Home Office accommodation,so I surf from couch to couch.
If I had a big news I could even be...
because I'm like,where am I going to be in two days?
Sure, like you have two days.
You live literally off your backpack.
So you make sure you have to make sure
you cannot have too much excess,because this is the space you have given.
(16:24):
I happen to sleep on
a chair like this.
Maybe I wasn't on the street,but I was homeless.
It's an emotional experience and I'mglad you feel okay to talk about that.
But yeah, I think
these venues really doneed to get like a lot better
(16:45):
with understanding, like the complexitiesof many queer people, like prioritizing
folks at the bottom, like people who like
even just like in terms of elitism...
You never knowwhere you're going to fit in.
You never know where people thinkyou're going to fit in with them.
It's just it's it's always a thoughtand that's, that's I feel like
(17:06):
people don't understand the privilegethat they have to not have a thought.
You're totally right.
And these are privilegesthat most people have.
And with the JOIN project,I guess we're trying to open people's eyes
to these privilegesand do better for everyone.
Tell me how you found itto be like part of the JOIN project.
The best part is...
for the first timeever, I’ve raised my voice on something.
(17:30):
I've been part of a project,I've been working on it.
And I saw it taking shape
and form and today we are heretalking about it.
I was able to express myself,to express my...
coming out from my comfort zonelike for once I left my bed,
not being so feelingsorry about why is my life so miserable.
(17:51):
Having to expressthat which was a big deal
and from what I took fromthere is - I'm capable.
I want to be ableto be a part of something that's like,
well organizedand really has like the best interests
of different types of queer peopleand migrants and asylum seekers at heart.
(18:14):
Seeing people who look like youin these spaces, like even, for example,
like right now, having, a blacknon-binary person interviewing me,
it does really helpwith like the experience and helping me
feel like a lot more like open
and like this is a place forme and like other folks. But
yeah, I
thinkit's just important on so many levels.
(18:37):
And I love a queer space thatacknowledges, like pain and like turmoil
and the complexities of livingand how it can affect your daily life.
Yeah,I love a place that prioritizes dreaming,
that gives, that makes dreamingnot feel like frivolous or naive,
(18:58):
but makes it feel like a necessityfor existence.
Thank you Wura.
And yeah, dreams are centralto this project, envisioning queer
utopian spaces and the changes neededin those that already exist
so that everyone can succeed and belongand be themselves.
Now we've set the scenein the coming episodes
(19:18):
we'll go deeper into our collaboratorsexperience of the asylum system
and migration, of homelessnessand housing insecurity,
of the importance of spacesthat support community and wellbeing,
the need for accessible educationand employment opportunities,
and finally arrive
at the dreams that we hold forwhat inclusive queer spaces can look like.
(19:39):
Join uson this journey, learn from these stories
and long live queer spaces.
Thank you to the City Bridge Trust,the funding arm of the City of London
Corporations charity Bridge House Estatesfor making this podcast possible.
And thanks to Siobhán McGuirkand Liv Wynter for helping us design
the series, to Sam Whelan-Curtinfor production, and to the Outside Project
(20:02):
for providing uswith space to come together.
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