April 2, 2025 • 34 mins
These days, feedback is everywhere. But are we benefiting from it, or are we just drowning in a sea of unsolicited opinions and HR-driven surveys?
In this episode, Indra and Amanda dive into the feedback frenzy: how social media and corporate feedback tools have fueled a culture of constant evaluation, the unintended consequences of feedback overload, and the real cost of all these mandatory feedback programs.
They also break down practical ways to filter out the noise, differentiate between helpful and unhelpful feedback, and give feedback in a way that supports growth.
If you’ve ever rolled your eyes at yet another feedback request, this episode is for you!
Useful Links
- Five questions to ensure your feedback is a gift https://medium.com/@indrapendence/five-questions-to-ensure-your-feedback-is-a-gift-11063f69c925
- Brené Brown’s talk featuring Teddy Roosevelt’s Man In the Arena quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-JXOnFOXQk
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Hi, I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well, but Ihave to say something. Can I
give you some feedback? I mean,I think there are a few words
(00:30):
that I don't like hearing like,depending on the context, those
words can just like, be likemales on a chalkboard.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:37):
Oh yeah, that just like dampers your entire
day, because the immediatethought is like, Oh, she's gonna
tell me, like, this is gonna benegative feedback
Indra Klavins (00:47):
always, for sure, every single time, every single
time. And like, we're in a worldthat is so obsessed about giving
and receiving feedback, like, weeven have a feedback form for
our podcast, like, but like,it's just wild. It's wild. So
the doctor's office, you have tohit the buttons to see what kind
of mood you're kind of moodyou're in and what it was. Like
supermarket, like, everyeverybody, it feels like
(01:07):
everybody's either giving youunsolicited feedback or asking
for it. I mean,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:12):
yeah, like, anytime I do anything, I get a
survey in my inbox. Like, howwas your flight? How was your
meal? How? Like, how was this?How was your experience on our
app? And it's just, like, I justopened it and, like, clicked a
button. Like, what experience?
Indra Klavins (01:28):
And so often, like, I'm just want to hit,
like, Okay, I'm ready to giveyou my feedback. I go and I
answer, like, two, threequestions. I think I'm done, and
then I'm in this massive survey.I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
abandoned survey. Abandonedsurvey.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:43):
No, the number of surveys I have abandoned
because, yeah, you're right.Like, it starts off with a few,
like, multiple choice questions,and then it throws you into open
ended text boxes, and they'reall mandatory. And I'm just
like, close window, close
Indra Klavins (01:59):
window, close window. I mean, I think we've
got some good things that we'regoing to talk about later, about
some of these, like, why are youmake me do your job for you,
right? You know? But like,before we go into, before we get
into our feelings about surveys,what I wanted to talk about was,
like, the, like, you and I, Ithink we've come up with, like,
two things that really have ledto the proliferation or the,
(02:22):
it's like the root causeanalysis of feedback fatigue, I
think you got one. Like, you'relike, you're like, it's, it's,
it's, it's this keyboardwarriors. I mean, that's one of
them. I mean, I don't know, likeeverybody, everybody's got a
darn keyboard so,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:38):
yeah, it's the keyboard warriors. It's the it's
the keyboard warriors on theinternet, right? Like everyone
on social media, um, I think,you know, social media has
democratized feedback, whichisn't a bad thing, right? Like
anyone with a keyboard doesn'tneed to be invited to a formal
(03:00):
feedback process, right or orform, right? If you have an
opinion, if you had a badexperience at whatever store,
you can go, you know, on theirsocial media page and be like,
hey, the cashier cost me outtoday, right? Like this is do
something about this. You'd wantto know. She cussed me out. She
(03:21):
cussed out the three peoplebehind me too. So it wasn't just
me thought you might want toknow, right? But I think the
format of of social mediafeedback invites and like
encourages the quick takes, thenot thinking about feedback
before you you fire somethingoff. It's just like I had
(03:45):
something bad happened to me, orI think something bad about you.
And in addition, like the socialmedia thing, because it's on the
internet and the Internetrewards attention, an easier way
to gain attention is to bashsomeone to bad mouth, someone to
(04:05):
have a hot take that's negativeand you know, like, you're not
going to go viral if you givesomeone glowing feedback or
something positive and sunshineand roses like, that's not going
to get
Indra Klavins (04:18):
so rare. It happens every once in a while,
usually involves a puppy or ababy. But, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:23):
oh, yeah, usually, right? Puppies, babies,
you know, yeah, yeah.
Indra Klavins (04:31):
But like the one, the one thing that, as you're
talking about, like, it's, italso, the way the platforms
encourage us, ask us to whateverengage it's, sort of, it's the
cost of doing business like, I'ma, I'm a Tiktok person, right?
I've, you know, I've been for afew years now, just really
obsessed with just like I loveit as a platform to learn so
(04:51):
many different things aboutpeople that I just wouldn't
encounter on an everyday basis.And there, everything is
algorithm driven. So either ayou're trying. To train your
algorithm. Or B, you see a videothat you like, and you know, you
want to make sure that thepeople who have done the work to
do the posting get rewarded, andsome of that is based on and
they keep on changing theirroute, their algorithm and their
(05:13):
monetization and whatever. Butlike you want to add a you want
to add a comment, because youwant to reward the person. But
then, like, that can lead. Imean, it's gone sideways in some
cases or something. Like, I'mlike, I was just trying to help
them with their engagementnumbers so they could get more
money out of the Creator fund,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:31):
right? And that's what it is, right? Like,
we've built this system like,the greater we, we've built this
system the
Indra Klavins (05:37):
royal we, yes, we the American Royal. We
Amanda Jane Lee (05:40):
the royal we built the system based on
engagement, yeah, and any again,like anyone with a keyboard, and
then anyone with a keyboard or asmartphone, right? Like a
virtual keyboard on your phone100%
Indra Klavins (05:55):
and they don't. And we don't always think about
the consequences of the wordsthat we're leaving like, and we
also don't think about thecontext of the other people that
might be ingesting those words,whether it's the original
creator, original poster, or,you know, just the audience as a
whole, is just, it creates alsoproblems like, that's, that's
(06:16):
like, root cause number one, andlike it is, there's a there's, I
think, root cause number Twothat we came up with, which is
interrelated, is all of thesefeedback platforms there are. So
the ability to elicit and andcollect feedback from people is
so darn easy. Google Forms isfree, right? The only free
platform is just happens to bethe one that we're using for the
(06:38):
pod. But like, can't believe Ijust said the pod, whatever,
anyway. But you know, like allthese forms, and I think the
ones that, the ones that, sincethis is our podcast, is really
focused more on the workplace,the ones that drive me the most
crazy are actually, and let's bevery, very clear, I have worked
with some incredible HR teammembers. I work with some really
(07:01):
incredible people, team members,all the different functions
within but the systems that havebeen created to help HR function
more effectively and try andensure that all of the all of
their team members with it,across the entire company, are
well supported, and all thepeople, managers and leaders are
doing a good job. Those systemsare infuriating. As a person
(07:28):
like the intent of them iswonderful, the implementation in
conceptually fantastic, but inpractice, it's exhausting. It is
absolutely exhausting. And Iknow you've got some stories,
I've got some stories. You know,I know that you've come across
some, some juicy ones, so whydon't you start?
Amanda Jane Lee (07:48):
Yeah, I mean, not, not so much juicy. But I've
worked at multiple organizationsthat have have implemented this
formal HR feedback managementtool. Yep. And the reminders
email slack every meeting, likethe reminders to get to 100%
(08:11):
engagement every day, multipletimes a day and there, because
I'm human right. I'm sure I'mnot the only one who feels this
way, there was a there's alwaysa part of me that's just like,
if they remind me one more time,I'm just not going to do it at a
spike
Indra Klavins (08:29):
the engagement surveys. I totally forgot about
this. I was at a workplace wherethe people leader, and I think
it's probably in all mycompanies I work for, but like,
there's one in particular thatstands out the all the people
leaders were competing with eachother to see who could get the
most, the most number of surveycompletions. And just to be
very, very clear, for in mostorganizations, or at least the
(08:51):
ones that I've been a part of,your engagement, your
engagement, your employeeengagement score, is exclusively
based on whether or not youfilled out that survey? Yes,
which is, which is, like, how Iengage at work, is how I talk to
people every single day, andwhether I give a hoot about
them. Like, to me, that's,that's like, the meaningful
(09:12):
engagement. But the metric thatyou know, all the, all the
benchmarking studies, at leastthe most recent ones that I've
worked with, is, like, how manypeople completed the survey, and
so they would compete with eachother and the team that one got
to wear jeans. This shows howlong ago that was. You got to
wear jeans to work,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:29):
and it's not even at the workplace, right?
Like I have applied to jobs andgotten an automated you know.
Sorry, we're moving forward withanother candidate, whatever the
automated rejection email Sure,and a few days later, got a
survey from a company. I don'teven work for them. Have you
(09:53):
even right? I didn't even talkto them. I didn't engage with
them, but they sent me a survey.Asking how the recruitment
process was, and I'm like, Areyou hitting me? So of course, I
ignored it, deleted. A few dayslater, they would send me a
reminder email saying, Hey, youdidn't fill out this survey
(10:14):
about our recruitment process.And I'm like, what recruitment
process? I didn't engage withanyone other than your automated
like sending my resume off intothe ether,
Indra Klavins (10:24):
wild, completely like it's and like you're making
the intent is good, because theydo want to make sure that, you
know, all candidates are havinga good experience. And you know,
the recruiting process iscomplex. There's lots of people
involved. There's the trainingon how to engage as on the
(10:47):
employee side is mixed, right,you know, and the in candidates
can also be mixed in all theirdifferent backgrounds. So like,
the intent to make sure that anexperience is good for everyone,
and that people leave thatprocess feeling good about the
company is is admirable. Butlike, why are you I'm not on
your payroll? Why are youhounding me to fill this thing
(11:08):
out? And why is it so much darnwork? Like, I don't get paid for
this,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:15):
right? It's not just a, you know, click a few
buttons and and it's off. It'susually back to what we were
talking about. It's, it'susually a trap, like it starts
off with the few click a fewbuttons, and then it takes you
into a mandatory open ended textbox, right where you have to
like, think about what the wordsthat you want to say, instead of
(11:37):
just clicking a number fromlike, one to five, how happy
were you, right
Indra Klavins (11:41):
and like, and the thing is, is that not a lot of
these forms are not anonymous.They're actually tied to you.
And if they're not tied to you,like, if the person can't figure
it out, they usually have someopen ended field where you know
the person interpreting thisstuff is going to be trying to
figure out who said what totallyleave me alone. I mean, I've
(12:04):
learned how to write over thecourse of my career. I've
learned how to write in acompletely different tone of
voice and everything forcompleting these surveys.
Because, like, afterwards,actually, at that same workplace
I was talking about earlier withthe engagement scores, one of
the people was part of theaction team who was reading the
consolidated feedback monitor,she's like, I found yours. You
said I'm like, nope, not me,legitimately, not me. Like,
(12:25):
because I've learned this skill.Like, because it's Why are you
asking me for this? Because Iknow I'm going to get
repercussions for it. But like,beyond that, forget about the
repercussions. I'm exhausted.
Amanda Jane Lee (12:35):
It's funny. You say that because I, too have,
have learned how to do thatlike, I add some typos, some
misspellings in there,
Indra Klavins (12:45):
strip out all your favorite words. Like, yep,
I'm now, nope, not me, not me.Somebody else heard that from
me, not me. I'm very, verycareful. But like, you know, and
then the other thing that that,when these systems are being
deployed, like, so I was I wasat, I was at, I'll tell you,
Rose, I was at WeWork. I was atWeWork. And there was a we had
(13:06):
quarterly reviews every quarter,every employee, 1000s of us,
1000s of us would go through 360reviews. And just for anyone who
doesn't know what a 360 reviewis, it's where you elicit
feedback from. Like, I think wewere saying five people. So you
want to get feedback from fivepeople to give you a well
rounded perspective. You wantedpeople who were your peers. You
(13:27):
wanted people who were moresenior than you were, and in
some cases, you wanted peoplewho were more junior than you
are in the organization to getthat 360 degree feedback. What
happened was, like we wouldspend at least a day like, I
still, I still remember whenDavid Lee the first time that
they did it, like all of us weresitting on the sixth floor,
(13:49):
which is where, like the big,the big lounge area, each of us
with, like, a glass of beer, aglass of wine, something, I
mean, not again. It was, it wasa particular workplace and
trying to crank through all ofthis feedback, because like, in
certain roles like you, theroles that you hold like or the
roles that I hold like you,interact with lots of people,
and people, when they like you,they ask you for their feedback.
(14:10):
So so it's all this time to getthis, all this time to sift
through it, if you're a peoplemanager, trying to figure out
what you're going to share withyour employee, as far as like
their performance, and then it'sthe it's all the hours that are
spent after the person receivestheir feedback, and them having
to interpret it, react to it,and that's a whole nother
episode, but like, it's so timeconsuming. And I don't think
(14:34):
that people always recognize thecost, the hidden costs. We're
all on the hidden stuff lately,right? The hidden costs to the
company of doing all this stuff?
Amanda Jane Lee (14:45):
Oh, yeah. Like, I, again, have worked at
multiple workplaces wheresimilar I'm, you know, might not
have called it a formal 360review, but like, short review
time, whether that's annualreview or semi annual comments,
whatever. Or, you know, everyquarter, like whatever you're
asked to provide peer feedback.Yes, and you and I interact with
(15:10):
a lot of people and and so a lotof people have asked me to write
their peer review. And ofcourse, you know, I'm not going
to be like, no, sorry, nottoday. But there was one time I
had to write, I think, six peerreviews, and each one took me at
(15:32):
least an hour, because I I haveto comb through, you know, the
projects we worked on together,the interactions that we've had,
I've had to, you know, recollectand collate that information,
yep, and then put it in this,you know, digestible format for
for this person, or for HR. AndI worked at, I worked somewhere
(15:57):
where there was a characterlimit in the system, or like a
word, like a word limit,because, because they good
intentions. Right back to whatyou said about you know, it
takes time for a manager to combthrough all this feedback and
and digest it and figure outwhat to share they were thinking
(16:19):
from a manager's perspective andthinking from from a peer
reviewer perspective as well,right? Like, oh, you only have
to write 200 words. Like, not abig deal. Me, I find it harder
to write something brief than towrite lots of words.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
I think there's that, there's that Churchill,
there's, I don't, I don't thinkI've ever found the actual
original quote, but there's aquote that's attributed to
Churchill where he's like, ifyou want me to talk and you, if
there's no time limit, I can doit right now. If you want me and
I've got two hours, I just needa couple of I need a couple of
hours of preparation. I'll begood on that one or like, but
the shorter you go, he's like,if you want me to do it in 15
(17:00):
minutes. I need a week. I needtwo weeks, or whatever it is,
like, it's true. And to onceyou've gone through these
processes, you're like, Oh, Iget it now. I get it somebody
short thing is not easy. It'snot easy. And,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:13):
you know, a similar quote I I don't know who
it's attributed to, either, butit's like, I, I would have
written you a shorter letter,but I didn't have the time
Exactly,
Indra Klavins (17:23):
exactly, exactly. I mean, it's, it's just so hard.
And, you know, we're committedto not just complaining about
things. Here, I'm doing a lot oflaughing. I promise. I'm going
to edit my left so they're notquite so loud, so nobody gets
their ears blown up. But I'm aboomer of a laugher, or my left
booms, Boomer doesn't meananyway, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:44):
that's not what you meant Indra, no, my
Indra Klavins (17:46):
last booms, um, but the we want to give people
solutions. So I think that youknow there, there are a few
different things, depending onwhere you are the the first one
that comes to mind for me, likeI started at an organization,
really large corporation, wassupporting a rather large team.
They hadn't had anyone in an opsrole, or they had, they had a
(18:09):
very small ops team. And so thebacklog of things that needed to
be cared for was pretty darnbig. Backlog is a list of things
to be done, folks. And so everysingle time I would see someone,
somebody would say, can you dothis thing? I'm like, okay, like
I created, I think there Icreated a spreadsheet, because
(18:31):
that's what worked for in thatscenario. But like a feedback
form goes a really long way, orlike a spreadsheet where they
can dump their thing and see it.You know why I love a
spreadsheet is because when youput it in a spreadsheet, that
people can see it. They can seehow many other things that
you're dealing with. Becausesomebody was complaining about a
particular door, like, wouldn'tthat door be great if I had, if
it had a window in it so that wecould see when it opens, so that
(18:54):
you wouldn't accidentally openit on to someone? I'm like,
That's great. I'm like, Itotally agree with you.
Wonderful thing. I've got thesefour other things I have to do
with facilities. I gave them.They're I'm like, these. Feel
like they're more important, arethey? And they're like, yes,
those are so much moreimportant. I'm like, Great,
fantastic. So it took thefeedback. It wasn't about me, it
(19:15):
was about what I should do,right? Put it in a form. I love
a good form. I love a goodspreadsheet. So that's one of my
favorites, yeah, I you touchedon something really important
about collecting feedback, andthese feedback forms, the
feedback culture, and it's doingsomething with that feedback,
like showing what that feedbackis and committing to acting on
(19:40):
that feedback.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:42):
You know, I've worked at organizations where,
you know, they ask you to do theengagement survey, the the
feedback survey, the this, thator the other survey, and nothing
gets done with that feedback.Why did I it just go time?
Right? It just goes into a blackhole, and nothing changes 100%
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (20:00):
I mean, which makes that scenario of a
prospective employer asking youfor feedback that you'll never
know if they ever implemented.And so that's, that's one of my
favorite tools, that and areally good call out on if
you're the person collectingfeedback, tell people. Tell
people what you're doing withit, even if, and if you collect
it, you're like, oh my gosh, isthis too much? Tell them it's
too much. I couldn't. I didn't.I requested it in good faith. I
(20:23):
thought it would take me x, it'staking it would take me Y. And
I've got these 10 other thingsto do. So I heard it, I have it.
I will do something. I can't doit right now. That's a perfect
out, perfect out on that one.And perfectly, I've been like,
oh, been there, done that, sure,sure, I've had scenarios like
that. I get it. I get it. Youcan't deal with it right now,
(20:44):
but I'm glad that it's stillvaluable and you'll get to it at
some point.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:49):
I also like Google Forms for what it's
worth. I like the option ofmaking the feedback anonymous,
if you need to, because forevery keyboard warrior out
there, there's someone whodoesn't want you to know that it
was you giving that feedback. Ijust going back to our
conversation. Yeah, we'vechanged the way we write on
(21:10):
these surveys because we don'twant anyone to know it was us.
Indra Klavins (21:15):
Yeah, 100% like and that's Yes. I my brain wants
a spiral. I will not. I willnot. We're gonna go because
that's such a good little rabbithole to go down. Spiral was the
wrong rabbit hole. I think thatthe other thing so that's on,
like, the requesting we weretalking about, like, ways to
channel feedback that's comingat you. One of my other things
(21:40):
is that I've got a little bit ofa bugaboo about her, like a
process that I use is, how do Ievaluate if this feedback is
even worth my time, right? So Ithink Brene Brown, when I first
when she came across to me likeshe was, she was quoting the
Teddy Roosevelt quote, whichI'll probably put a link on in
our in our show notes when weposted the Teddy Rizzo quote,
(22:02):
but it's the crux of it is, isthat I don't take feedback from
people in the cheap seats. Yep,you're up there, you know, like
Monday morning quarterbacking.You're not in the arena with me.
It's the Man in the Arena quote,like, I don't take your
feedback. It's not, it's it'snot for me, I mean, but like
asking yourself, this is thequestions I came up with. Were
(22:22):
really around giving feedback,but they you can apply the same
ones to see. Did they go throughthese steps? So like, the ones I
have like, is the persongenuinely providing feedback to
help me grow, or am I, you know,that's question number one, are
they really trying to like, Doesthis help? This this feedback?
Would this help feedback help meachieve my career aspirations,
or is it something that wouldhelp them achieve theirs? You
(22:45):
know, is it they're looking atfrom their perspective? Am I in
a position to apply thatfeedback? This one's kind of
like my favorite, because I havereceived so many bits of
feedback from really good peopleleaders, but there happen to be
men, and these men give mefeedback, and they the
(23:05):
suggestions that they give meare tools and tips and things
that work really well for themto get to where they are in
their career. But what theydon't realize is that that
feedback, I've applied itbefore, before in my life, and
it backfires every single time,and it's just not something that
I can apply. It's like, so that,to me, is one. I mean, we can
(23:28):
dig into that one, and then,yeah, I'd say that those are the
ones, if you're receivingfeedback, those are the ones are
like, they like, you look at itthrough those, those three,
right? Because is it worth it?And I think that maybe there's a
fourth one, like, is thissomething that I really need to
take, even though I don't likeit, because it's going to be
something that chaotic happensif I don't take this feedback?
Okay, fine, you know. But yeah,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:49):
what you said about the feedback given by men?
Like, I'm sure it's great. It'sgreat feedback. It's great
advice for other someone, forother people who are in a
similar situation, demographicas you, however, Chad, if I went
(24:09):
ahead and I did that, I wouldcome off as bossy and rude and
all of the negative B word,
Indra Klavins (24:17):
the B word, haul all
Amanda Jane Lee (24:19):
the words, and that's that's not helpful. No, I
know you gave me that feedbackwith the best of intentions.
However, it's not going to helpme. It's not going
Indra Klavins (24:31):
to help me. And you know, having that crucial
conversation, you know, youchose Chad, so like, having that
crucial conversation with Chadcan be really hard. So whether
or not I explained to Chad that,that there's a reason why I'm
not applying to his feedback.That's that's a judgment for you
to make. Like, sometimes Ifrankly, don't have the energy
to explain to Chad, right? Like,I don't I'm like, I hear him.
(24:52):
He'll keep on saying to me, Hey,I told you. I'm like, I know. I
know, I know. Like, sometimes Iwill explain it to him, and
sometimes I won't, andsometimes. There's a question
of, like, whether you get thepower, like, the situational,
contextual power to have thatconversation with somebody who
might have societal or or, like,literal power over you within
(25:12):
that workplace. So yeah, and Ithink that that echoes our
Amanda Jane Lee (25:17):
transparency about the feedback that you're
getting and how that's helpful,which is, like, this is all the
feedback I've been getting here.Here is all these other things
that I can implement, that I canactually, that I have the time
to the capacity to whatever itis. And like, here it is, this
is, this is, these are thereasons why I'm not implementing
(25:39):
your specific feedback 100%
Indra Klavins (25:42):
and I think that the other thing, and I haven't
found the perfect one, too, Ithink that this asking for
permission to give feedback, Ithink, is an important thing to
do, right like I think that, butdoing it in a way that's
skillful and be and ask it. Whenyou ask the question, hey,
Amanda, are you open to somefeedback? Or, like, are you in
(26:03):
the headspace for feedback? Orlike, you know, or is this
something you want to navigateon your own? It would probably
be a route that I would go.Like, and if Amanda says, No, I
can't do it. I'm like, okay,cool, not now or not ever, not
ever. Okay, great. I don't needto. It's not unless there's
unless I'm her people manager,and I literally need to do this
for some sort of reason, or, youknow, there's something that's
gonna be irreparable harm. I cantake that feedback, write it
(26:28):
down in a notebook, write in theemail and send it to myself, not
to her. Send it to myself if Ineed to get it out of my system.
But it's not Amanda doesn't oweme anything. You don't owe me
anything about feedback, unless,again, unless it's literally
part of the job relationship,and it's something that I really
need to do, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (26:46):
Yeah, I think that opting in to feedback so to
both giving and receiving bothback,
Indra Klavins (26:52):
both, yes, both and in, there will be scenarios,
again, where you have to justtake it on the chin and be like,
Okay, I'm not in the headspaceright now, can we do this in an
hour? So I just want to take adeep breath I can see where this
is going. And I just want to beprepared for and I want to have
the mindset where I can actuallyreceive it like that's a nice
way to deflect and still knowthat you need to receive, you
(27:14):
know. But gosh, this world, thisworld and this feedback, I don't
owe anyone anything in general,as far as feedback goes. Remind
yourselves of that, folks, Ithink that I'm a people pleaser.
I like to make people, like,really happy. I like to say
that, like Amanda was saying,you like to take the time to
give the feedback, and, youknow, help people improve. But
you know, you got to protectyourself first. Like, protect
(27:34):
yourself first. And sometimesthat's putting out a set of
headphones, even if no music isplaying.
Amanda Jane Lee (27:41):
Yeah. And, you know, these aren't hard and fast
rules of black and white, right?Like, there are going to be
exceptions. There are going tobe scenarios where, like, you
have to give feedback. Like, Idon't have time to ask you if
you're ready for feedback. Like,I need to give you this feedback
right, right now,
Indra Klavins (27:56):
right now, because, I mean, you're leading
a team, and you've got torelease in, you got a software
release in two hours. And you'relike, I need you to get your
stuff together, figure this out.These are the three things I
see, where you want to go. Wewill talk about that in four
hours, because in three hourswe're going to do this, and then
I will talk to you about that infour hours. I promise you like
but like, get this done, first,hear the feedback, get it done,
(28:16):
and then we'll talk about it.There's there's ways around it,
you know. So totally love it. Soany last, any, do you have any
feedback on our feedbackepisode? Amanda,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:28):
I don't have feedback on our feedback
episode, but something that didcome to mind, yeah, just as an
afterthought of the of ourGoogle Forms and and ways to
collect feedback, yeah, um, isthe idea of a retrospective? Oh,
Indra Klavins (28:46):
I love a good retro. I have a meaning to add
that to our potential episodeslist. I think a good what's a
for those who don't know, like,what's a retrospective and what
might be some of the other namesthat people might know it as I
might throw in some names inthere, but tell us
Amanda Jane Lee (28:59):
a retrospective or a retro, for short, is a
ceremony or a meeting thatregularly occurs. This is common
in the software developmentwhere you work in iterations or
sprints, and there's, there'sjust a set of regular sprint
(29:20):
ceremonies or meetings, checkins, so to speak, and a
retrospective is at the end ofan iteration where the team gets
together and talks about whatwent well the last iteration.
Whether that's two weeks, it'stypically two weeks, I think,
what went well in the last twoweeks, what could have been
(29:41):
better in the last two weeks,with the intention of continuous
improvement and and just makingthings better, right? Like
hearing what the team has tosay, both positive and negative,
yes, and then making thatcommitment to to doing things.
Things better, like, forexample, you know, a common one
(30:02):
is we get interrupted too much,too many times, by people, by
leadership, by whomever,someone, someone higher up,
keeps on messaging me with likenew tasks to do. And that's why
I couldn't get things done inthe last two weeks. And so you
would hear that the people wouldtalk about it and say, Me too.
(30:25):
Me too. Um, and oftentimes itwould be me, or there are people
manager saying, Okay, goingforward, I like. I will be the
buffer. I'll talk to leadership.I'll ensure that all all new
requests, all new requests gothrough proper channels so that
you're not interrupted fromdoing what you said that you
(30:49):
were going to do in the last twoweeks. And the these are just
ways to just get a real timepulse check on how the team is
doing and like, get their ideasfor how to make things better.
Indra Klavins (31:06):
I'm glad that you said that. I love a good
retrospective, Sunset Review,after action, meeting, whatever.
There's lots of different namesfor I love them because they
also, if you do have Amanda,used the word Ceremony. Ceremony
in this context is like ithappens on a regular basis,
right? Like it's something, it'san important I'll use the word
(31:28):
ritual. They sound likereligious things. They're not.
But like these rituals that youdo, and because you do them
consistently, and because it isa practice unto itself, going
through this, this conversation,which can be a challenging one
or can be a good one, dependson, depends on the cycle, right,
on that really scheduledcadence. What happens is that
(31:49):
you can, everyone knows there'llbe a place where they can say
what they need to say, right?And then, you know, if somebody
feels the need to expressthemselves between these rituals
like say, Hey, I love it. Writeit down and bring it to the
sunset review, bring it to theretrospective. Like, this is
really important, and I thinkthat it's important for us to
dialog about it. So, like,that's a great way to channel
(32:10):
that energy, because people wantto express themselves. Like
Heck, I like expressing my welike to express ourselves. How
do you guys wouldn't exist if wedidn't like to express
ourselves, but I love that. Ilove that I love Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (32:25):
and is it's one setting the expectation that we
are going to collect yourfeedback, yes, that you should
have feedback to share, that youlike express yourself, right?
That there is a place, there isa forum to do it and we're going
to do some something about it,right? We're going to try to do
(32:45):
something about it. We're we'regoing to acknowledge that you
have this feedback, and thenwe're going to talk about it,
and then we're going to figureout how to action that feedback,
or if that feedback needs to beactioned. Maybe it's just a
venting session, like neversometimes,
Indra Klavins (33:01):
sometimes that's necessary. So and So, yeah, I
think we'll have a full episodeon on these. Because, I mean,
there's different approaches.Like, yeah, probably have more
than one. There's lots of funways to do these. I enjoy good
sunset. Any other thoughts? Anyother feedback on our feedback?
Amanda Jane Lee (33:18):
No, no feedback on our feedback. So
Indra Klavins (33:21):
let me, let me list out some things we're going
to make sure we put them in theshow notes so that they're
available to y'all. But what wehave is a glossary of
terminology. We throw out a lotof jargon that may or may not be
familiar to folks. We arecommitted to creating a
glossary. It's a spreadsheetwith terms and terminologies. If
you're wondering, like, what dothey mean by that? Like, we're
well, well, we get most words.We may not get every single one
(33:42):
of them, but we get most words,and we throw in the definition
there we have listed byepisodes. So that'll be there.
That's at the messy middlematters.com/glossary, same thing
for feedback, the messy middlematters.com/feedback I'll add a
link to my blog post aroundthose questions. It's framed as
(34:03):
like making sure that whenyou're giving feedback it's
useful, but again, you canreinterpret it and look at it
from the other side with just alittle bit of time. We'll put
that in there, and I'll throw ina link to Bernays, the quote
that Brene talks about the TeddyRoosevelt quote about the Man in
the Arena. I just I embody thatquote. Some days I'm like, No,
you're in the cheap seats.You're in the cheap seats. I
(34:24):
respect you for giving feedback,but I will not internalize it.
Good for good for you, not forme, as Amy Poehler says, as Amy
Poehler says, anyway, thankseveryone for listening. Thank
you, Amanda, as always, forbeing my partner in crime on
this. And we'll see you nexttime when we talk about another
topic from the messy middle bye,
Amanda Jane Lee (34:43):
bye,
Hi, I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm doing well, but Ihave to say something. Can I
give you some feedback? I mean,I think there are a few words
(00:30):
that I don't like hearing like,depending on the context, those
words can just like, be likemales on a chalkboard.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:37):
Oh yeah, that just like dampers your entire
day, because the immediatethought is like, Oh, she's gonna
tell me, like, this is gonna benegative feedback
Indra Klavins (00:47):
always, for sure, every single time, every single
time. And like, we're in a worldthat is so obsessed about giving
and receiving feedback, like, weeven have a feedback form for
our podcast, like, but like,it's just wild. It's wild. So
the doctor's office, you have tohit the buttons to see what kind
of mood you're kind of moodyou're in and what it was. Like
supermarket, like, everyeverybody, it feels like
(01:07):
everybody's either giving youunsolicited feedback or asking
for it. I mean,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:12):
yeah, like, anytime I do anything, I get a
survey in my inbox. Like, howwas your flight? How was your
meal? How? Like, how was this?How was your experience on our
app? And it's just, like, I justopened it and, like, clicked a
button. Like, what experience?
Indra Klavins (01:28):
And so often, like, I'm just want to hit,
like, Okay, I'm ready to giveyou my feedback. I go and I
answer, like, two, threequestions. I think I'm done, and
then I'm in this massive survey.I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
abandoned survey. Abandonedsurvey.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:43):
No, the number of surveys I have abandoned
because, yeah, you're right.Like, it starts off with a few,
like, multiple choice questions,and then it throws you into open
ended text boxes, and they'reall mandatory. And I'm just
like, close window, close
Indra Klavins (01:59):
window, close window. I mean, I think we've
got some good things that we'regoing to talk about later, about
some of these, like, why are youmake me do your job for you,
right? You know? But like,before we go into, before we get
into our feelings about surveys,what I wanted to talk about was,
like, the, like, you and I, Ithink we've come up with, like,
two things that really have ledto the proliferation or the,
(02:22):
it's like the root causeanalysis of feedback fatigue, I
think you got one. Like, you'relike, you're like, it's, it's,
it's, it's this keyboardwarriors. I mean, that's one of
them. I mean, I don't know, likeeverybody, everybody's got a
darn keyboard so,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:38):
yeah, it's the keyboard warriors. It's the it's
the keyboard warriors on theinternet, right? Like everyone
on social media, um, I think,you know, social media has
democratized feedback, whichisn't a bad thing, right? Like
anyone with a keyboard doesn'tneed to be invited to a formal
(03:00):
feedback process, right or orform, right? If you have an
opinion, if you had a badexperience at whatever store,
you can go, you know, on theirsocial media page and be like,
hey, the cashier cost me outtoday, right? Like this is do
something about this. You'd wantto know. She cussed me out. She
(03:21):
cussed out the three peoplebehind me too. So it wasn't just
me thought you might want toknow, right? But I think the
format of of social mediafeedback invites and like
encourages the quick takes, thenot thinking about feedback
before you you fire somethingoff. It's just like I had
(03:45):
something bad happened to me, orI think something bad about you.
And in addition, like the socialmedia thing, because it's on the
internet and the Internetrewards attention, an easier way
to gain attention is to bashsomeone to bad mouth, someone to
(04:05):
have a hot take that's negativeand you know, like, you're not
going to go viral if you givesomeone glowing feedback or
something positive and sunshineand roses like, that's not going
to get
Indra Klavins (04:18):
so rare. It happens every once in a while,
usually involves a puppy or ababy. But, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:23):
oh, yeah, usually, right? Puppies, babies,
you know, yeah, yeah.
Indra Klavins (04:31):
But like the one, the one thing that, as you're
talking about, like, it's, italso, the way the platforms
encourage us, ask us to whateverengage it's, sort of, it's the
cost of doing business like, I'ma, I'm a Tiktok person, right?
I've, you know, I've been for afew years now, just really
obsessed with just like I loveit as a platform to learn so
(04:51):
many different things aboutpeople that I just wouldn't
encounter on an everyday basis.And there, everything is
algorithm driven. So either ayou're trying. To train your
algorithm. Or B, you see a videothat you like, and you know, you
want to make sure that thepeople who have done the work to
do the posting get rewarded, andsome of that is based on and
they keep on changing theirroute, their algorithm and their
(05:13):
monetization and whatever. Butlike you want to add a you want
to add a comment, because youwant to reward the person. But
then, like, that can lead. Imean, it's gone sideways in some
cases or something. Like, I'mlike, I was just trying to help
them with their engagementnumbers so they could get more
money out of the Creator fund,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:31):
right? And that's what it is, right? Like,
we've built this system like,the greater we, we've built this
system the
Indra Klavins (05:37):
royal we, yes, we the American Royal. We
Amanda Jane Lee (05:40):
the royal we built the system based on
engagement, yeah, and any again,like anyone with a keyboard, and
then anyone with a keyboard or asmartphone, right? Like a
virtual keyboard on your phone100%
Indra Klavins (05:55):
and they don't. And we don't always think about
the consequences of the wordsthat we're leaving like, and we
also don't think about thecontext of the other people that
might be ingesting those words,whether it's the original
creator, original poster, or,you know, just the audience as a
whole, is just, it creates alsoproblems like, that's, that's
(06:16):
like, root cause number one, andlike it is, there's a there's, I
think, root cause number Twothat we came up with, which is
interrelated, is all of thesefeedback platforms there are. So
the ability to elicit and andcollect feedback from people is
so darn easy. Google Forms isfree, right? The only free
platform is just happens to bethe one that we're using for the
(06:38):
pod. But like, can't believe Ijust said the pod, whatever,
anyway. But you know, like allthese forms, and I think the
ones that, the ones that, sincethis is our podcast, is really
focused more on the workplace,the ones that drive me the most
crazy are actually, and let's bevery, very clear, I have worked
with some incredible HR teammembers. I work with some really
(07:01):
incredible people, team members,all the different functions
within but the systems that havebeen created to help HR function
more effectively and try andensure that all of the all of
their team members with it,across the entire company, are
well supported, and all thepeople, managers and leaders are
doing a good job. Those systemsare infuriating. As a person
(07:28):
like the intent of them iswonderful, the implementation in
conceptually fantastic, but inpractice, it's exhausting. It is
absolutely exhausting. And Iknow you've got some stories,
I've got some stories. You know,I know that you've come across
some, some juicy ones, so whydon't you start?
Amanda Jane Lee (07:48):
Yeah, I mean, not, not so much juicy. But I've
worked at multiple organizationsthat have have implemented this
formal HR feedback managementtool. Yep. And the reminders
email slack every meeting, likethe reminders to get to 100%
(08:11):
engagement every day, multipletimes a day and there, because
I'm human right. I'm sure I'mnot the only one who feels this
way, there was a there's alwaysa part of me that's just like,
if they remind me one more time,I'm just not going to do it at a
spike
Indra Klavins (08:29):
the engagement surveys. I totally forgot about
this. I was at a workplace wherethe people leader, and I think
it's probably in all mycompanies I work for, but like,
there's one in particular thatstands out the all the people
leaders were competing with eachother to see who could get the
most, the most number of surveycompletions. And just to be
very, very clear, for in mostorganizations, or at least the
(08:51):
ones that I've been a part of,your engagement, your
engagement, your employeeengagement score, is exclusively
based on whether or not youfilled out that survey? Yes,
which is, which is, like, how Iengage at work, is how I talk to
people every single day, andwhether I give a hoot about
them. Like, to me, that's,that's like, the meaningful
(09:12):
engagement. But the metric thatyou know, all the, all the
benchmarking studies, at leastthe most recent ones that I've
worked with, is, like, how manypeople completed the survey, and
so they would compete with eachother and the team that one got
to wear jeans. This shows howlong ago that was. You got to
wear jeans to work,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:29):
and it's not even at the workplace, right?
Like I have applied to jobs andgotten an automated you know.
Sorry, we're moving forward withanother candidate, whatever the
automated rejection email Sure,and a few days later, got a
survey from a company. I don'teven work for them. Have you
(09:53):
even right? I didn't even talkto them. I didn't engage with
them, but they sent me a survey.Asking how the recruitment
process was, and I'm like, Areyou hitting me? So of course, I
ignored it, deleted. A few dayslater, they would send me a
reminder email saying, Hey, youdidn't fill out this survey
(10:14):
about our recruitment process.And I'm like, what recruitment
process? I didn't engage withanyone other than your automated
like sending my resume off intothe ether,
Indra Klavins (10:24):
wild, completely like it's and like you're making
the intent is good, because theydo want to make sure that, you
know, all candidates are havinga good experience. And you know,
the recruiting process iscomplex. There's lots of people
involved. There's the trainingon how to engage as on the
(10:47):
employee side is mixed, right,you know, and the in candidates
can also be mixed in all theirdifferent backgrounds. So like,
the intent to make sure that anexperience is good for everyone,
and that people leave thatprocess feeling good about the
company is is admirable. Butlike, why are you I'm not on
your payroll? Why are youhounding me to fill this thing
(11:08):
out? And why is it so much darnwork? Like, I don't get paid for
this,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:15):
right? It's not just a, you know, click a few
buttons and and it's off. It'susually back to what we were
talking about. It's, it'susually a trap, like it starts
off with the few click a fewbuttons, and then it takes you
into a mandatory open ended textbox, right where you have to
like, think about what the wordsthat you want to say, instead of
(11:37):
just clicking a number fromlike, one to five, how happy
were you, right
Indra Klavins (11:41):
and like, and the thing is, is that not a lot of
these forms are not anonymous.They're actually tied to you.
And if they're not tied to you,like, if the person can't figure
it out, they usually have someopen ended field where you know
the person interpreting thisstuff is going to be trying to
figure out who said what totallyleave me alone. I mean, I've
(12:04):
learned how to write over thecourse of my career. I've
learned how to write in acompletely different tone of
voice and everything forcompleting these surveys.
Because, like, afterwards,actually, at that same workplace
I was talking about earlier withthe engagement scores, one of
the people was part of theaction team who was reading the
consolidated feedback monitor,she's like, I found yours. You
said I'm like, nope, not me,legitimately, not me. Like,
(12:25):
because I've learned this skill.Like, because it's Why are you
asking me for this? Because Iknow I'm going to get
repercussions for it. But like,beyond that, forget about the
repercussions. I'm exhausted.
Amanda Jane Lee (12:35):
It's funny. You say that because I, too have,
have learned how to do thatlike, I add some typos, some
misspellings in there,
Indra Klavins (12:45):
strip out all your favorite words. Like, yep,
I'm now, nope, not me, not me.Somebody else heard that from
me, not me. I'm very, verycareful. But like, you know, and
then the other thing that that,when these systems are being
deployed, like, so I was I wasat, I was at, I'll tell you,
Rose, I was at WeWork. I was atWeWork. And there was a we had
(13:06):
quarterly reviews every quarter,every employee, 1000s of us,
1000s of us would go through 360reviews. And just for anyone who
doesn't know what a 360 reviewis, it's where you elicit
feedback from. Like, I think wewere saying five people. So you
want to get feedback from fivepeople to give you a well
rounded perspective. You wantedpeople who were your peers. You
(13:27):
wanted people who were moresenior than you were, and in
some cases, you wanted peoplewho were more junior than you
are in the organization to getthat 360 degree feedback. What
happened was, like we wouldspend at least a day like, I
still, I still remember whenDavid Lee the first time that
they did it, like all of us weresitting on the sixth floor,
(13:49):
which is where, like the big,the big lounge area, each of us
with, like, a glass of beer, aglass of wine, something, I
mean, not again. It was, it wasa particular workplace and
trying to crank through all ofthis feedback, because like, in
certain roles like you, theroles that you hold like or the
roles that I hold like you,interact with lots of people,
and people, when they like you,they ask you for their feedback.
(14:10):
So so it's all this time to getthis, all this time to sift
through it, if you're a peoplemanager, trying to figure out
what you're going to share withyour employee, as far as like
their performance, and then it'sthe it's all the hours that are
spent after the person receivestheir feedback, and them having
to interpret it, react to it,and that's a whole nother
episode, but like, it's so timeconsuming. And I don't think
(14:34):
that people always recognize thecost, the hidden costs. We're
all on the hidden stuff lately,right? The hidden costs to the
company of doing all this stuff?
Amanda Jane Lee (14:45):
Oh, yeah. Like, I, again, have worked at
multiple workplaces wheresimilar I'm, you know, might not
have called it a formal 360review, but like, short review
time, whether that's annualreview or semi annual comments,
whatever. Or, you know, everyquarter, like whatever you're
asked to provide peer feedback.Yes, and you and I interact with
(15:10):
a lot of people and and so a lotof people have asked me to write
their peer review. And ofcourse, you know, I'm not going
to be like, no, sorry, nottoday. But there was one time I
had to write, I think, six peerreviews, and each one took me at
(15:32):
least an hour, because I I haveto comb through, you know, the
projects we worked on together,the interactions that we've had,
I've had to, you know, recollectand collate that information,
yep, and then put it in this,you know, digestible format for
for this person, or for HR. AndI worked at, I worked somewhere
(15:57):
where there was a characterlimit in the system, or like a
word, like a word limit,because, because they good
intentions. Right back to whatyou said about you know, it
takes time for a manager to combthrough all this feedback and
and digest it and figure outwhat to share they were thinking
(16:19):
from a manager's perspective andthinking from from a peer
reviewer perspective as well,right? Like, oh, you only have
to write 200 words. Like, not abig deal. Me, I find it harder
to write something brief than towrite lots of words.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
I think there's that, there's that Churchill,
there's, I don't, I don't thinkI've ever found the actual
original quote, but there's aquote that's attributed to
Churchill where he's like, ifyou want me to talk and you, if
there's no time limit, I can doit right now. If you want me and
I've got two hours, I just needa couple of I need a couple of
hours of preparation. I'll begood on that one or like, but
the shorter you go, he's like,if you want me to do it in 15
(17:00):
minutes. I need a week. I needtwo weeks, or whatever it is,
like, it's true. And to onceyou've gone through these
processes, you're like, Oh, Iget it now. I get it somebody
short thing is not easy. It'snot easy. And,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:13):
you know, a similar quote I I don't know who
it's attributed to, either, butit's like, I, I would have
written you a shorter letter,but I didn't have the time
Exactly,
Indra Klavins (17:23):
exactly, exactly. I mean, it's, it's just so hard.
And, you know, we're committedto not just complaining about
things. Here, I'm doing a lot oflaughing. I promise. I'm going
to edit my left so they're notquite so loud, so nobody gets
their ears blown up. But I'm aboomer of a laugher, or my left
booms, Boomer doesn't meananyway, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:44):
that's not what you meant Indra, no, my
Indra Klavins (17:46):
last booms, um, but the we want to give people
solutions. So I think that youknow there, there are a few
different things, depending onwhere you are the the first one
that comes to mind for me, likeI started at an organization,
really large corporation, wassupporting a rather large team.
They hadn't had anyone in an opsrole, or they had, they had a
(18:09):
very small ops team. And so thebacklog of things that needed to
be cared for was pretty darnbig. Backlog is a list of things
to be done, folks. And so everysingle time I would see someone,
somebody would say, can you dothis thing? I'm like, okay, like
I created, I think there Icreated a spreadsheet, because
(18:31):
that's what worked for in thatscenario. But like a feedback
form goes a really long way, orlike a spreadsheet where they
can dump their thing and see it.You know why I love a
spreadsheet is because when youput it in a spreadsheet, that
people can see it. They can seehow many other things that
you're dealing with. Becausesomebody was complaining about a
particular door, like, wouldn'tthat door be great if I had, if
it had a window in it so that wecould see when it opens, so that
(18:54):
you wouldn't accidentally openit on to someone? I'm like,
That's great. I'm like, Itotally agree with you.
Wonderful thing. I've got thesefour other things I have to do
with facilities. I gave them.They're I'm like, these. Feel
like they're more important, arethey? And they're like, yes,
those are so much moreimportant. I'm like, Great,
fantastic. So it took thefeedback. It wasn't about me, it
(19:15):
was about what I should do,right? Put it in a form. I love
a good form. I love a goodspreadsheet. So that's one of my
favorites, yeah, I you touchedon something really important
about collecting feedback, andthese feedback forms, the
feedback culture, and it's doingsomething with that feedback,
like showing what that feedbackis and committing to acting on
(19:40):
that feedback.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:42):
You know, I've worked at organizations where,
you know, they ask you to do theengagement survey, the the
feedback survey, the this, thator the other survey, and nothing
gets done with that feedback.Why did I it just go time?
Right? It just goes into a blackhole, and nothing changes 100%
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (20:00):
I mean, which makes that scenario of a
prospective employer asking youfor feedback that you'll never
know if they ever implemented.And so that's, that's one of my
favorite tools, that and areally good call out on if
you're the person collectingfeedback, tell people. Tell
people what you're doing withit, even if, and if you collect
it, you're like, oh my gosh, isthis too much? Tell them it's
too much. I couldn't. I didn't.I requested it in good faith. I
(20:23):
thought it would take me x, it'staking it would take me Y. And
I've got these 10 other thingsto do. So I heard it, I have it.
I will do something. I can't doit right now. That's a perfect
out, perfect out on that one.And perfectly, I've been like,
oh, been there, done that, sure,sure, I've had scenarios like
that. I get it. I get it. Youcan't deal with it right now,
(20:44):
but I'm glad that it's stillvaluable and you'll get to it at
some point.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:49):
I also like Google Forms for what it's
worth. I like the option ofmaking the feedback anonymous,
if you need to, because forevery keyboard warrior out
there, there's someone whodoesn't want you to know that it
was you giving that feedback. Ijust going back to our
conversation. Yeah, we'vechanged the way we write on
(21:10):
these surveys because we don'twant anyone to know it was us.
Indra Klavins (21:15):
Yeah, 100% like and that's Yes. I my brain wants
a spiral. I will not. I willnot. We're gonna go because
that's such a good little rabbithole to go down. Spiral was the
wrong rabbit hole. I think thatthe other thing so that's on,
like, the requesting we weretalking about, like, ways to
channel feedback that's comingat you. One of my other things
(21:40):
is that I've got a little bit ofa bugaboo about her, like a
process that I use is, how do Ievaluate if this feedback is
even worth my time, right? So Ithink Brene Brown, when I first
when she came across to me likeshe was, she was quoting the
Teddy Roosevelt quote, whichI'll probably put a link on in
our in our show notes when weposted the Teddy Rizzo quote,
(22:02):
but it's the crux of it is, isthat I don't take feedback from
people in the cheap seats. Yep,you're up there, you know, like
Monday morning quarterbacking.You're not in the arena with me.
It's the Man in the Arena quote,like, I don't take your
feedback. It's not, it's it'snot for me, I mean, but like
asking yourself, this is thequestions I came up with. Were
(22:22):
really around giving feedback,but they you can apply the same
ones to see. Did they go throughthese steps? So like, the ones I
have like, is the persongenuinely providing feedback to
help me grow, or am I, you know,that's question number one, are
they really trying to like, Doesthis help? This this feedback?
Would this help feedback help meachieve my career aspirations,
or is it something that wouldhelp them achieve theirs? You
(22:45):
know, is it they're looking atfrom their perspective? Am I in
a position to apply thatfeedback? This one's kind of
like my favorite, because I havereceived so many bits of
feedback from really good peopleleaders, but there happen to be
men, and these men give mefeedback, and they the
(23:05):
suggestions that they give meare tools and tips and things
that work really well for themto get to where they are in
their career. But what theydon't realize is that that
feedback, I've applied itbefore, before in my life, and
it backfires every single time,and it's just not something that
I can apply. It's like, so that,to me, is one. I mean, we can
(23:28):
dig into that one, and then,yeah, I'd say that those are the
ones, if you're receivingfeedback, those are the ones are
like, they like, you look at itthrough those, those three,
right? Because is it worth it?And I think that maybe there's a
fourth one, like, is thissomething that I really need to
take, even though I don't likeit, because it's going to be
something that chaotic happensif I don't take this feedback?
Okay, fine, you know. But yeah,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:49):
what you said about the feedback given by men?
Like, I'm sure it's great. It'sgreat feedback. It's great
advice for other someone, forother people who are in a
similar situation, demographicas you, however, Chad, if I went
(24:09):
ahead and I did that, I wouldcome off as bossy and rude and
all of the negative B word,
Indra Klavins (24:17):
the B word, haul all
Amanda Jane Lee (24:19):
the words, and that's that's not helpful. No, I
know you gave me that feedbackwith the best of intentions.
However, it's not going to helpme. It's not going
Indra Klavins (24:31):
to help me. And you know, having that crucial
conversation, you know, youchose Chad, so like, having that
crucial conversation with Chadcan be really hard. So whether
or not I explained to Chad that,that there's a reason why I'm
not applying to his feedback.That's that's a judgment for you
to make. Like, sometimes Ifrankly, don't have the energy
to explain to Chad, right? Like,I don't I'm like, I hear him.
(24:52):
He'll keep on saying to me, Hey,I told you. I'm like, I know. I
know, I know. Like, sometimes Iwill explain it to him, and
sometimes I won't, andsometimes. There's a question
of, like, whether you get thepower, like, the situational,
contextual power to have thatconversation with somebody who
might have societal or or, like,literal power over you within
(25:12):
that workplace. So yeah, and Ithink that that echoes our
Amanda Jane Lee (25:17):
transparency about the feedback that you're
getting and how that's helpful,which is, like, this is all the
feedback I've been getting here.Here is all these other things
that I can implement, that I canactually, that I have the time
to the capacity to whatever itis. And like, here it is, this
is, this is, these are thereasons why I'm not implementing
(25:39):
your specific feedback 100%
Indra Klavins (25:42):
and I think that the other thing, and I haven't
found the perfect one, too, Ithink that this asking for
permission to give feedback, Ithink, is an important thing to
do, right like I think that, butdoing it in a way that's
skillful and be and ask it. Whenyou ask the question, hey,
Amanda, are you open to somefeedback? Or, like, are you in
(26:03):
the headspace for feedback? Orlike, you know, or is this
something you want to navigateon your own? It would probably
be a route that I would go.Like, and if Amanda says, No, I
can't do it. I'm like, okay,cool, not now or not ever, not
ever. Okay, great. I don't needto. It's not unless there's
unless I'm her people manager,and I literally need to do this
for some sort of reason, or, youknow, there's something that's
gonna be irreparable harm. I cantake that feedback, write it
(26:28):
down in a notebook, write in theemail and send it to myself, not
to her. Send it to myself if Ineed to get it out of my system.
But it's not Amanda doesn't oweme anything. You don't owe me
anything about feedback, unless,again, unless it's literally
part of the job relationship,and it's something that I really
need to do, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (26:46):
Yeah, I think that opting in to feedback so to
both giving and receiving bothback,
Indra Klavins (26:52):
both, yes, both and in, there will be scenarios,
again, where you have to justtake it on the chin and be like,
Okay, I'm not in the headspaceright now, can we do this in an
hour? So I just want to take adeep breath I can see where this
is going. And I just want to beprepared for and I want to have
the mindset where I can actuallyreceive it like that's a nice
way to deflect and still knowthat you need to receive, you
(27:14):
know. But gosh, this world, thisworld and this feedback, I don't
owe anyone anything in general,as far as feedback goes. Remind
yourselves of that, folks, Ithink that I'm a people pleaser.
I like to make people, like,really happy. I like to say
that, like Amanda was saying,you like to take the time to
give the feedback, and, youknow, help people improve. But
you know, you got to protectyourself first. Like, protect
(27:34):
yourself first. And sometimesthat's putting out a set of
headphones, even if no music isplaying.
Amanda Jane Lee (27:41):
Yeah. And, you know, these aren't hard and fast
rules of black and white, right?Like, there are going to be
exceptions. There are going tobe scenarios where, like, you
have to give feedback. Like, Idon't have time to ask you if
you're ready for feedback. Like,I need to give you this feedback
right, right now,
Indra Klavins (27:56):
right now, because, I mean, you're leading
a team, and you've got torelease in, you got a software
release in two hours. And you'relike, I need you to get your
stuff together, figure this out.These are the three things I
see, where you want to go. Wewill talk about that in four
hours, because in three hourswe're going to do this, and then
I will talk to you about that infour hours. I promise you like
but like, get this done, first,hear the feedback, get it done,
(28:16):
and then we'll talk about it.There's there's ways around it,
you know. So totally love it. Soany last, any, do you have any
feedback on our feedbackepisode? Amanda,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:28):
I don't have feedback on our feedback
episode, but something that didcome to mind, yeah, just as an
afterthought of the of ourGoogle Forms and and ways to
collect feedback, yeah, um, isthe idea of a retrospective? Oh,
Indra Klavins (28:46):
I love a good retro. I have a meaning to add
that to our potential episodeslist. I think a good what's a
for those who don't know, like,what's a retrospective and what
might be some of the other namesthat people might know it as I
might throw in some names inthere, but tell us
Amanda Jane Lee (28:59):
a retrospective or a retro, for short, is a
ceremony or a meeting thatregularly occurs. This is common
in the software developmentwhere you work in iterations or
sprints, and there's, there'sjust a set of regular sprint
(29:20):
ceremonies or meetings, checkins, so to speak, and a
retrospective is at the end ofan iteration where the team gets
together and talks about whatwent well the last iteration.
Whether that's two weeks, it'stypically two weeks, I think,
what went well in the last twoweeks, what could have been
(29:41):
better in the last two weeks,with the intention of continuous
improvement and and just makingthings better, right? Like
hearing what the team has tosay, both positive and negative,
yes, and then making thatcommitment to to doing things.
Things better, like, forexample, you know, a common one
(30:02):
is we get interrupted too much,too many times, by people, by
leadership, by whomever,someone, someone higher up,
keeps on messaging me with likenew tasks to do. And that's why
I couldn't get things done inthe last two weeks. And so you
would hear that the people wouldtalk about it and say, Me too.
(30:25):
Me too. Um, and oftentimes itwould be me, or there are people
manager saying, Okay, goingforward, I like. I will be the
buffer. I'll talk to leadership.I'll ensure that all all new
requests, all new requests gothrough proper channels so that
you're not interrupted fromdoing what you said that you
(30:49):
were going to do in the last twoweeks. And the these are just
ways to just get a real timepulse check on how the team is
doing and like, get their ideasfor how to make things better.
Indra Klavins (31:06):
I'm glad that you said that. I love a good
retrospective, Sunset Review,after action, meeting, whatever.
There's lots of different namesfor I love them because they
also, if you do have Amanda,used the word Ceremony. Ceremony
in this context is like ithappens on a regular basis,
right? Like it's something, it'san important I'll use the word
(31:28):
ritual. They sound likereligious things. They're not.
But like these rituals that youdo, and because you do them
consistently, and because it isa practice unto itself, going
through this, this conversation,which can be a challenging one
or can be a good one, dependson, depends on the cycle, right,
on that really scheduledcadence. What happens is that
(31:49):
you can, everyone knows there'llbe a place where they can say
what they need to say, right?And then, you know, if somebody
feels the need to expressthemselves between these rituals
like say, Hey, I love it. Writeit down and bring it to the
sunset review, bring it to theretrospective. Like, this is
really important, and I thinkthat it's important for us to
dialog about it. So, like,that's a great way to channel
(32:10):
that energy, because people wantto express themselves. Like
Heck, I like expressing my welike to express ourselves. How
do you guys wouldn't exist if wedidn't like to express
ourselves, but I love that. Ilove that I love Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (32:25):
and is it's one setting the expectation that we
are going to collect yourfeedback, yes, that you should
have feedback to share, that youlike express yourself, right?
That there is a place, there isa forum to do it and we're going
to do some something about it,right? We're going to try to do
(32:45):
something about it. We're we'regoing to acknowledge that you
have this feedback, and thenwe're going to talk about it,
and then we're going to figureout how to action that feedback,
or if that feedback needs to beactioned. Maybe it's just a
venting session, like neversometimes,
Indra Klavins (33:01):
sometimes that's necessary. So and So, yeah, I
think we'll have a full episodeon on these. Because, I mean,
there's different approaches.Like, yeah, probably have more
than one. There's lots of funways to do these. I enjoy good
sunset. Any other thoughts? Anyother feedback on our feedback?
Amanda Jane Lee (33:18):
No, no feedback on our feedback. So
Indra Klavins (33:21):
let me, let me list out some things we're going
to make sure we put them in theshow notes so that they're
available to y'all. But what wehave is a glossary of
terminology. We throw out a lotof jargon that may or may not be
familiar to folks. We arecommitted to creating a
glossary. It's a spreadsheetwith terms and terminologies. If
you're wondering, like, what dothey mean by that? Like, we're
well, well, we get most words.We may not get every single one
(33:42):
of them, but we get most words,and we throw in the definition
there we have listed byepisodes. So that'll be there.
That's at the messy middlematters.com/glossary, same thing
for feedback, the messy middlematters.com/feedback I'll add a
link to my blog post aroundthose questions. It's framed as
(34:03):
like making sure that whenyou're giving feedback it's
useful, but again, you canreinterpret it and look at it
from the other side with just alittle bit of time. We'll put
that in there, and I'll throw ina link to Bernays, the quote
that Brene talks about the TeddyRoosevelt quote about the Man in
the Arena. I just I embody thatquote. Some days I'm like, No,
you're in the cheap seats.You're in the cheap seats. I
(34:24):
respect you for giving feedback,but I will not internalize it.
Good for good for you, not forme, as Amy Poehler says, as Amy
Poehler says, anyway, thankseveryone for listening. Thank
you, Amanda, as always, forbeing my partner in crime on
this. And we'll see you nexttime when we talk about another
topic from the messy middle bye,
Amanda Jane Lee (34:43):
bye,
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