April 16, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down workplace information dynamics, exploring why some people cling to knowledge, others freely share it, and some strategically keep certain details close to the chest. They unpack the motivations behind each approach, the impact on team dynamics, and how to find a balance that fosters trust while maintaining healthy boundaries.
Plus, they finally explain their matching sweatshirts. Spoiler alert: It’s all about setting limits when you’re the go-to person for answers.
Tune in to reflect on your own information-sharing style and learn small shifts that can lead to big workplace improvements.
Useful Links:
- Don't Make Me Regret Sweatshirts, etc.: shop.themessymiddlematters.com/collections/dont-make-me-regret
- Lucy van Pelt - Peanuts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Van_Pelt
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Hi, I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?I'm great. How are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
Indra, I'm good. I'm good.
Indra Klavins (00:22):
You know, I was thinking, have you ever met a
librarian who doesn't want totell you about their library?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:27):
No, I and I've met librarians. I've just never
met a librarian who doesn't wantto talk about their library.
100% I follow a couple ofdifferent librarians on Tiktok
and the things that they I findthem fascinating. But they share
everything they share. They wantto share everything. They want
to share everything. And it's solike, there's just this, there's
(00:48):
this generosity that that likeexudes from them, that exudes
from them. So like they they'rereally, you know, they seem like
they're trying to just create acommunity. Make sure you feel
supported, make sure that you'reloved, make sure that you you
get what you need to, I don'tknow, right? Make sure you have
the information that you wantand need. Make sure that your
you know your curiosity is beingsatisfied,
Indra Klavins (01:11):
and they'll tell you things that you didn't even
know. They're like, Hey, did youknow that our library also rents
out jello molds, so you need tobuy all your own or whatever.
Each library has got its ownthing.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:21):
That's awesome. I didn't know that libraries
rental too.
Indra Klavins (01:25):
They do, they do. They like, it's nothing that
I've taken advantage of. Butsome of them have, like, some of
my favorite ones are like thatI've heard about is where they
have, like, even maker spacesthat you can actually go and do
things in. And like, you can,you can do all sorts. And you
rent out puzzles. You can do alot of stuff, like talk to your
if you want to know a lot ofstuff about a lot of things,
(01:46):
talk to your local librarian.But then we've got on the other
end of the spectrum, theinformation hoarders, the people
who will not let go of a singlething. Do you know they? They
won't. They hold on to it all.Doesn't matter what it is. They
just won't talk to you about it.I don't know. Have you ever
found anyone like that, whetherit's in your personal life or
the professional life,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:06):
yeah, um, just people who go around collecting
information and, like, donothing to share that
information with anyone. It'stheirs. It's it's my my mind.
Indra Klavins (02:18):
You know it's the worst because, like, I think
that the worst moments are,you're in a meeting and, you
know, you've been trying to findX, Y and Z piece of material for
like, weeks. You've spoken toeverybody that you can in the
entire company. And then you'rein a meeting and you're talking
to your boss, you know, andyou're like, Hey, I'm completely
blocked because I can't find X,Y and or z, I can't find any of
(02:41):
these things. And your colleaguewho's been sitting at a desk
next to you for all these threeweeks, much longer than that,
says, Oh, I know where to findthat. You're like, Dude,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:51):
I know where to find that. Like, thanks for
sharing that information. Canyou tell me where to find it?
Oh, well,
Indra Klavins (03:00):
they are so I'll say selfish. They're so selfish,
but, you know, I don't know. Idon't know. That's my impression
most, not always, but
Amanda Jane Lee (03:09):
not always. Yeah, I think I've run into
people who are unintentionalhoarders.
Indra Klavins (03:17):
There's that too.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:18):
Yeah, of just like, oh, I have this
information. I encountered thisinformation, or I did this thing
and, like, I just did it and Ididn't document it, and, like,
I'm just moving on, like I I'mjust so busy and I don't have
the time or capacity, or evenjust the thought of, oh, maybe
someone else could benefit fromthis
Indra Klavins (03:35):
100% like, they're, you know, I think that
that's, I think that last thingis, what was coming to mind as
you're talking is that theydon't I sometimes have
information. I don't evenrealize that that's useful. I
thought everybody knew, like,it's not, it's not a I'm not
trying to protect it. I justdidn't. I just didn't think that
others didn't know that. Cool.Now
Unknown (03:56):
I know right? Like, Didn't everyone get that email?
I thought everyone did.
Indra Klavins (04:00):
The answer, yeah, the answer is often enough, no,
but you know. And then there'sfolks that land somewhere in the
middle. There's folks that youknow tend to, they love to tell
you about everything that's intheir library, so to speak, but
they may not tell you about allthe things. Actually, it's not
everything. It's they'll tellyou about enough of it. They'll
tell you about the publicprogramming. They'll tell you
about, like, what's going on inthe in they'll tell you what's
(04:23):
going on over the next few days,and maybe they wins the next
town hall, but there might besome stuff that they hold back.
So,
Unknown (04:29):
right, like here, you know, I have a collection of
rare books, right, that I'm justgonna keep to myself because
that's mine, and I'll bust itout for for someone who's really
interested or who will askdirectly about it? Yeah, just
there's, there's a piece of thatlibrary that isn't like, here
you go, here is everything.
Indra Klavins (04:50):
And that totally makes sense, because you know,
if you're talking aboutsomething like a precious book,
like, if everybody wanted to seethe first edition of whatever.
Your favorite book is, I don'tknow what's popular these days,
but then, then, then that bookcould get damaged, that book
could get frayed, that book, alot of things could happen to
(05:11):
that book. So you totally youknow, there is something so
beautiful about the thatlibrarian who wants to share
everything. There is somethingthat can be really frustrating
with a person who's hoardinginformation and is keeping their
secret stash of their Jr tokenfirst editions all to
themselves, and don't let themout for you know, to see the
date light of day. And thenthere's like the folks who you
(05:32):
know will share something likethey might share the most recent
publication of the Tolkienbooks, but might keep that
secret one to the side. I mean,I have not read a lot of token
books, but I know there's a lotof collectors of those out
there,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:45):
right? Yeah, there's just something to be
appreciated and acknowledgedabout the people who are in that
middle space. And I think, Imean, I said middle this is the
messy middle matters. It's thatmiddle space of you have
information, but you're nothoarding it for yourself, right?
But you're also not like, here'severything, here's my entire
(06:07):
library. And did you know it'severything and
Indra Klavins (06:10):
100% and, you know, like we've mostly spoken
about, you know, books andlibraries and things like that.
But this also applies at work. Imean, we did use some work
references in there, but, youknow, I think that this, this
behavior in the workplace. Can,you know, can be super.Knowledge
is power. Knowledge is power,right, you know, and some people
(06:31):
try and wield that power, likethe hoarders, I think sometimes
do. Or, you know, some peoplecan be constantly sharing
information or collectinginformation, and there is a tax
to that, so I don't know, whydon't we talk a little bit about
our information hoarders andsome of the experiences that
we've had in the workplace? Imean, I've got, I've got some
examples. I've got one from manymoons ago that just like sticks
(06:54):
with me to this day.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:56):
Yeah, but yeah, I've got an example in mine too.
There's, there's a and this hashappened a few times, right?
There's a person we'll, we'llcall them a lead, right? There's
a lead of a team who demands tobe included on every meeting,
demands to be included on everyemail, copied on every
(07:17):
communication, who, like, needsto have all of the information
about what we'll call it aproject, right? All of the
information, all of the details.And I think that that form of
micromanagement comes from aplace of fear, of like, oh, I
need this information. And if Idon't have this information, I
(07:39):
don't have that power, right? Idon't have that, that
information currency to to hold,to hold my position, or, like,
to keep my job.
Indra Klavins (07:50):
Yeah, totally. Like, it's, it's, it's so funny
that you say that, like, and itcan be, it can be a complicated
thing. Like, I think about, youknow, I'm trying to think about
I have an example, but I'mriffing off of what you said.
Like, I try and think of my owntendencies, like when I'm
leading a team, especially in aworkplace where knowledge is
constantly power. Like, I thinkmy favorite line to try and
(08:12):
avoid being that person who'strying to avoid being that
person is just really say, Hey,can you CC me on everything? I
promise you I'm not going tolurk. I just need to be able to
search it when I need to find itin my inbox. It in my inbox,
when somebody asks about it. Butthat's not what you're talking
about. You're talking about theperson who really just wants to
be in the middle of it all, likethey feel the need to be in the
(08:33):
middle of it all. And, and,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:36):
right. They have to control. They have to
gate, keep that information and,and I think there's a piece of
it just going back to the theterm of hoarder, right? Like you
have this information and you'realso not doing anything to share
this information. It's you'rekeeping it to yourself. You're
you're being selfish about itbecause of reasons, right,
(08:58):
whatever your motivations mightbe, yeah.
Indra Klavins (09:01):
And I think that the I think that the other
behavior that I often see inthis scenario is where the
person, like, let's say theyhave a team of five people, just
for the sake of illustration,they they make sure that those
five people aren't reallysharing information with each
other and are only sharinginformation with lead, right? So
lead person doesn't want theteam to talk to each other. They
(09:24):
want to be the only person whohas eyes on all five different
streams, right? Which is its ownversion of like they're
compartmentalizing for the sakeof it. And it's not. It's Guess
what. Neither Amanda nor I haveworked in a place where nuclear
secrets are being shared, so wedidn't need to be able to fork
all that, you know, divide allthat information in that sort of
way. But, yeah, yeah, there is
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
right that person in this scenario that you
just described is a bottleneck,right there, the bottleneck they
it's not, it's not healthy. It'snot productive. It's it's just,
why are you being thisgatekeeper? Why are you being
the only person who's wieldingthis information?
Indra Klavins (10:11):
And I think you know that it's fear, it's fear
and the perception of power,which leads to my example, like
years and years ago, it was theearly, early aughts, and I was
working as a programmer, andwe're doing automated
publishing, of all things, butthe company that I was working
for was struggling. It was afterthe.com bust right there.
(10:32):
They're struggling to make endsmeet. And the lead of the team,
he was courting some informationspecifically on how to compile
and deploy the code, right andjob security. He thought it was
job security Heath, and thatwas, that was his Express
(10:53):
motivation. Was job security,and we did inevitably have team
cuts. And guess what? It didn'thelp him with his job security.
You know, it was, he may havebeen super talented, he may have
been really capable. He may havebeen a lot of different things.
But, you know, I would guess. Iwould guess I was not in the
(11:14):
decision making process. But Iwould guess that, you know, in
addition to him being probably ahigher paid employee, right?
That might have been a factor inthis, I don't know. But the fact
is, is that when you have anemployee who is feel that, you
feel like they're holding yourcode and your release is
hostage, it's not a greatfeeling for a leadership so, so,
(11:35):
like, I don't know if it's agreat way to ingratiate yourself
to the people who actually makethe decisions about who stays
and who goes? So,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:41):
yeah, and I think, you know, it's that job
security and that coming from aplace of fear you're not
actually protecting yourself. Ithink that's a really hard fact
to come to, come to terms withif you're that person,
Indra Klavins (12:03):
yeah. I mean, it's, it's like, what comes the
term that comes to mind is ascarcity mindset, right? Yes,
you know, I think that thatmight be a topic that we add to
our backlog of scarcity versusan abundance mindset, right? But
when you think that there's onlyso much to go around, you're
more likely to lead into thosehoarding activities, but not
(12:24):
something I aspire to, somethingthat I clearly avoid. I know,
Amanda, you actively avoidtrying to get into that kind of
space too. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:31):
yeah, I mean, you know, I, I like information.
I need information, like, justthe nature of what I've done as
a career, like, I needinformation, but I'm not going
to be the one to keep all thatinformation and be the only one
who has that information. I,again, like we talked about
earlier middle space of like, Ihave this information, but I'm
(12:54):
going to be, you know, I'm, I'mgoing to keep my my rare books
in the corner for like, when Ineed it,
Indra Klavins (13:01):
totally, totally, totally, totally, totally, I
love that. You and I, we alwayswind it back in the middle. We
always wind it back in themiddle. Um, so, but let's over
the other end of this extreme.Like, there are, you know,
sometimes I refer to myself as ascavenger of information. Like,
I'm the person who's like, like,I will seek out every possible
corner of every intranet,extranet, whatever we can find,
(13:23):
to figure out what somethingmeans. And, you know, a
librarian might do the same typeof thing, make sure everything
that that's that's in theircollection, like I want to
understand, so that I can helpeveryone else, you know, just
just running, you know, runningaround and scurrying around.
It's not a the intention, theenergy that I'm thinking of when
I think of like this librarianarchetype, isn't, you know,
(13:45):
somebody who's trying toscavenge just for themselves, or
collect for themselves, or, youknow they're they're really just
collecting because they want tobe able to help others with this
knowledge and information,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (13:55):
Going back to the librarian metaphor, right?
Like building that community,like building that space with
the things that are useful toall,
Indra Klavins (14:04):
yes, and there is, there's, there's more of
like this, we kind of thinkinglike, it's we, W, E, I don't
know, sometimes I don'tenunciate as clearly as I'd like
to, but like, yeah, it's about,it's about the greater good.
It's about the greater good,because libraries serve
communities. I mean, that's sortof why we were thinking of this
metaphor. Like, libraries arethere. They're the cornerstone
(14:26):
of communities, and, you know,they're more likely to share
information if you're in alibrary, versus, let's say, a
bookstore. We need to buy theinformation, right? That's sort
of another version ofgatekeeping, right? But I love,
I love a metaphor, folks, you'llhave to apologize. I like, I
have so sorry, but they're morelikely to share. There's a
generosity thing, you know, andI think that my favorite thing
(14:48):
that I so there's a couple ofthings that come to mind, you
know, when, when I'm thinkingabout being in librarian mode,
like the reality of it is, isthat most of my career has not.
Had a lot of authority. It's hada lot of influence. And, you
know, early on, somebody taughtme the lesson, like, Indra,
you're in the business offavors. You have no control over
(15:09):
anyone else. You need to collecta bunch of favors. I'm like,
okay, and one of the ways that Icollect favors, not as a, you
know, not as a mobster, who'slike, you owe me one. I'm from
New Jersey, but, you know, not,I don't, I don't live up to that
stereotype. I live up to a lotof other ones, but, but, you
(15:29):
know, it's really aboutcollecting that so that someday,
maybe you can get that person tohelp you, and they're more
likely to help you in the futurewhen you need help. So there is
this, you know, building,building of goodwill, building
of camaraderie, building oftrust. That happens when you do
share information, when peoplereally need it,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:47):
yeah, the building of goodwill, like the,
those were the words that poppedinto my brain. It's that good
will. It's that, that community,the feeling of trust. And it's
modeling. It's modeling goodbehavior, right? Like, I'm gonna
share this with you because Ithink it's useful to you and to
us and to we the community. Andby doing that, I'm showing you
(16:12):
that it's okay and encouragedfor you to do the same. Like, if
you come across information thatyou think is helpful for the
team, yeah, please share it.
Indra Klavins (16:22):
Yeah, well, and that's the thing is, like, it's,
it is that it's, I'm glad thatyou went there. It's the, you
know, I'm going to share it withyou. My expectations that you
share it with somebody else,and, or contribute to the
knowledge when you have it, youknow, and, and just like
fostering it, or even in ameeting being like, somebody
brings up a good piece.Fantastic. Thank you for sharing
(16:43):
that bit of information. Can youplease add it to the team wiki
or the team Slack channel or theteam whatever the knowledge
repository is for that team andmodeling that behavior, I think,
is so important and encouraging,that behavior is so important.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:59):
Yeah, I think that was a callback to our words
matter episode of like, creatingthis glossary, creating the
glossary for the benefit of thecommunity, like this is
important for others, and we'regoing to share it with you,
Indra Klavins (17:13):
yeah, but I'd say, you know, one of the things
that I've experienced when I'mtoo far into librarian mode,
right? Is that my proverbialdoorbell never stops ringing.
Everyone's like, hey Indra.Where is this? Hey Indra.
Where's the that? Hey Indra,where's the this? How Indra?
Like it can be exhausting wheneverybody thinks of you as that
(17:37):
center of knowledge, and youbecome a bottleneck, which is
even besides being exhausted,you feel like you're a choke
point on communication, whichfeels even worse than that,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:47):
right? It's, it's the other side. It's, I was
gonna say dark side, but it'snot the really the side, right?
It's the other side of havinginformation. It's when you, when
you model yourself to to to bethat person, to be the
librarian, right? Like you showothers that you are the
librarian, that you haveinformation that may cause
(18:09):
people to expect thatinformation from you, and that's
not always the case. Or maybeyou do have that information,
but you're not open. 24/7 toshare everything. Hey, Indra.
Hey Indra. About this? Do youknow anything about that? It's
exhausting.
Indra Klavins (18:25):
It's exhausting. And some of the stuff doesn't
even require like knowledge.They just want to talk to
someone.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:34):
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (18:36):
they'll, they'll be like, Hey, I was just
thinking, you know, you becomethat. Well, maybe, maybe being
colleagues pseudo therapists isanother topic for another day,
but you kind of feel that way.But you know which, which
actually brings, brings us tothe middle, you know, there's,
there's somewhere there is ahappy medium you're talking
about a little bit earlier.There's a happy medium hoarding
(18:57):
information and being the personthat everyone turns to for
absolutely bit of knowledgethat's out there. Right for the
most extreme verse in thelibrarian, you know, you know, I
love invoking the like 80, someversion of the 8020 rule. It's a
very, you know, common ratiothat that gets thrown around in
life and in business. But, youknow, I I've worked really hard
(19:22):
to figure out, like, how do Icreate the boundaries so that I
don't get exhausted? Because Ihave been that person, like I,
if I look back at my performancereviews, which I'm sure I have
on some drive somewhere, likeIndra, boundaries, you're really
helpful, but you need someboundaries. So, yeah, I don't
know. You're, you're Amanda,you've been, you're, you're
fantastic at drawing boundariesaround things.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:44):
I try to be. It's a work in progress, but,
but, yeah, I try to be, becausewithout boundaries, you just
burn yourself out. Yeah, and Ithink it's a good segue to if
you're watching the video, wehave matching sweatshirts. So
that say, "Don't make me regrettrying to be helpful."
Indra Klavins (20:05):
Yeah, yeah. This is, this is, this is evidence of
a time and place when Amanda andI were like, we need to draw
more boundaries and we need aphysical reminder.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:17):
Do you want to tell the story Indra? These were
your words.
Indra Klavins (20:22):
These are my words. These are my words. I'll
I can tell this story, but well,you'll tell me if I got it right
or wrong, because memoriesaround these things can be a
little bit fuzzy, but
Amanda Jane Lee (20:31):
yeah, I don't even remember what the specifics
were, and maybe you do. I justremember that these were your
words, and our whole team waslike, that needs to go on a
shirt, yeah?
Indra Klavins (20:40):
And I made sure my whole team had got this
sweatshirt that says, Don't makeme regret trying to be helpful.
So we were going through. It wasa challenging time in the
company that we're working at.You know, it was a challenging
time, but this scenario, if I'mremembering correctly, it was
like November, Decembertimeframe, I think that it had
to do with getting, like, yearend reviews or year end
(21:03):
reflections, or something aroundyear end processes into a
system. And anyone who's workedin a company with HR who has
these review processes knowsthat there's, like, really hard
deadlines. You know, it's kindof the same as, like, open
enrollment for health benefits,like there's a hard deadline you
need to get it done. And if youdon't get it done, you're going
(21:24):
to have some problems that,right? You're going to be locked
out of the system, like youactually cannot do anything
after the deadline, right? And,you know, let's say it was, I
mean, let's say it's with selfreflections for a year end
review, which is what I think itwas like you you won't be able
to use your words to advocatefor your year end bonus or a
(21:44):
potential promotion, or anythingelse like so there is a reason
that, you know, everybody mightwant to get their thing in
right. And so we'd receivedmultiple email, I think I saw
there was an email, and theremay have even been a Slack
message in one of the big, giantchannels for the all the
employees in the company thatwent out. And because I've
(22:04):
worked with human beings longenough to know that I you know,
they don't always catcheverything. I took the message,
I took a snippet of it, and Iposted it in our teams are we
were working for an engine, wewere supporting an engineering
team. We posted in the slash.I'm like, Hey folks, by the way,
don't know if you notice thatyou know your emails or you were
(22:25):
paying attention to Slackchannel, but the deadline for X,
Y and Z is next Wednesday,and Iand I have and because I've been
around the block a few times, Isaid I don't have any further
answers to any questions relatedto this. It's not my process. I
don't know anything. Check youremail. Check in with our HR
partner to find out if you haveany sort of questions. If you do
(22:47):
read the email first, check withthem. Second, the number of at
Indra, direct messages that Igot or like in thread in the
thing. Indra, how do I do it?Indra, why is it this way?
Indra, why I hate that formfield? Indra, Indra. Indra. I
was like, folks, right? I wastrying to be helpful here. I was
trying to make sure that you allsaw there was a deadline, and I
(23:07):
told you I don't know anythingmore about this than is written
in that email,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:13):
right? Like, I'm just the messenger. I'm I'm
so sorry I don't have theinformation for you, but I told
you this,
Indra Klavins (23:20):
oh my gosh, but it was, it was, it was actually
evidence that they were lookingfor the librarian who's going to
sit them down, give them acookie, make sure, make sure
that they eat their vegetablesfor them, right? Not even make a
smoothie for them. Eat theirvegetables for like, I can't do
this, and I don't have anyanswers, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (23:42):
You were trying to be the helpful librarian and
say, Hey, this is importantinformation for you all to know.
Not sure if you saw it and inthe stacks and stacks of books
we have, but I'm calling it outfor you. I don't know anything
else about this, but you know,like there's action to be taken.
There are other ways to findthis information. If you like. I
(24:07):
don't know anything. Pleasedon't ask me. I don't make me
regret trying to be helpful.Don't make me regret trying to
be helpful.
Indra Klavins (24:13):
And one thing I do not regret is having
sweatshirts made for the entireteam. Everyone got to choose
their particular cut andwhatever, but, and maybe someday
when we do merch, if peoplereally have a desire for Don't
make me regret trying to behelpful, we might do that, you
know. Have have them up forpeople, so everyone else can
join in on the silliness fun.But it's so true every workplace
(24:34):
that I've worn it at, like, on ameeting, you know. So they're
like, Oh, that's funny. I'mlike, yeah. They're like, I see
why you wear it? I'm like, Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:41):
Yeah, same. I think every meeting I I've worn
this sweatshirt too. When I'm oncamera, there have been people
either messaging me or evensaying on the B day, wow. You're
sure it's great. Where can I getone?
Indra Klavins (24:55):
Get one. So, I mean, you know, I'd love to talk
about, like, the things thathelp you, that work for you to
get back into that middle.Because I think, you know,
extreme on anything never reallyworks, right? It's it. Life is
mostly spent in the middle. Lifeis mostly spent in the gray.
Life is rarely black and white,you know. And for folks who are
(25:18):
on one end of the spectrum orthe other, you know, I think
that our audience is less likelyto actually be on that hoarder
side. They're probably morelikely to be on the librarian
side, and they're gettingoverwhelmed. They feel like they
feel like they feel like theimage that always comes to mind
is like Lucy, Lucy from thePeanuts, like, I love her advice
(25:40):
for five cents, thing, you know,but, you know, it's like, but,
you know, Lucy, sometimes I feltlike Lucy without a booth,
without any sort of hours, likeit was just a boot that was
expected to always be open. But
Amanda Jane Lee (25:55):
right, right, this isn't 7-11 we're not open.
You know, 24 hours a day in themiddle of the night for you to
come in and get whatever youneed. There's, yeah, I love that
you brought up Lucy, becausethere's a just immediate image
in my brain, right, of Lucy ather booth, like, you know, five
(26:15):
cents, and this is when she's ather booth, and this is when she
she's available for to giveadvice, and when she's not at
her booth, that's it. You don'tget advice. And if you don't
have the five cents, you don'tget advice either, right?
There's have to be, yeah, yeah.I think it's just setting that
boundary and an expectation foryourself and for others.
Indra Klavins (26:38):
And it can be exhausting. You know, sometimes
one of the things that I've Istill remember exactly my people
manager at the time, when I was,I was learning the skill the
hard way was, you know, I wouldsay that he's like, Indra, you
need to set more boundaries. I'mlike, Yeah, but it's, it's
easier for me to do it for themthan it is for me to teach that
(27:00):
like to constantly have toremind them to go to the wiki to
get the information themselves.He's like Indra. He's like, I on
a per transaction basis, you'reright, but over the course of
time, you're never going tothat. You're never going to
stop. The only way you can stopit is to put in that little bit
of extra effort now so that theyactually start doing it
(27:22):
themselves.
Amanda Jane Lee (27:23):
Yep, yeah. I think, I think that's great
advice for the librarians of theworld who either are exhausted
or on their way to gettingexhausted and burnt out by by
being the keeper of information,and by, whether intentionally or
unintentionally, building thatreputation for themselves, that
(27:45):
they are the InformationLibrary. I also think there's,
there's some guidance that wecan give for like you said, you
know, are the people who listento this probably aren't
hoarders, at least notintentionally, right? Exactly?
Yeah, at the beginning of ourconversation, I talked about the
(28:07):
unintentional hoarding. So youknow, if you if you feel like
maybe you are a bit of anunintentional hoarder, where you
don't share information, eitherbecause you're too busy or
whatever the reason may be, Iwould invite everyone to just do
a little bit of self reflectionand and figure out, like, Is
(28:29):
there information that I comeacross or like, are there things
that I do that others canbenefit from, for, for the
greater good to To be a littlebit more of a librarian.
Indra Klavins (28:42):
Yeah. And as you're talking I was also
thinking about, like a lot ofyou know, when I'm an onboarding
a new team member who is in aprogram management or an
operations role, like thedefault behavior for a large
chunk of those folks tends to beI want to prove myself to be
useful. So people come to mebecause I know I'm in the
(29:03):
business of favors, right? So,like, that's, that's the that's
the energy that you lead with,and that is the way that you
often get you ingratiateyourself to the teams that
you're supporting. So they doinvite you to meetings. They do
see the value in you. But youknow, I think that asking
yourself, doing that reflection.You're talking about Amanda on a
(29:23):
periodic basis. Like, you know,let's say you are brand new to
the organization, like, youknow, maybe every, every month,
like, Okay, I'm being thatperson to get pulled in. Is it
too far yet? Right? Is it toofar yet? Like, create these.
They put something on yourcalendar that like, has you do
that self reflection to say,hey, is this the moment in time
(29:46):
where I back off? And, you know,it can be scary to back off,
because, you know, will theystill love you? Will they still
invite you if you're notconstantly answering the
questions? Spoiler, yes,probably the odds are good if
you're doing your job well,probably, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I you know there's,
there's a part of what you youjust said that struck the the
idea of, again, a scarcitymindset, right? And that fear,
that motivation, being motivatedby fear, and it's like, no, you
(30:21):
can let go of some of that, youcan let go of some of that, or
you can pull back. It'll befine.
Indra Klavins (30:27):
It'll be fine. And at where, if it's not fine,
this is probably not the reasonwhy it's not fine. Because, you
know, I think that when you'rewhen you were just talking about
fear and scarcity, I'm thinkingabout a lot of people are
looking for roles right now, youknow, or they're or they watched
a lot of friends exit or beexited from their organization,
(30:48):
and you feel like, oh my gosh, Igotta. Need to prove myself.
Even more. Like, take a breath.You need to take care of
yourself. And, you know, nothaving the answer for everyone
at every single moment, that'snot the thing that's going to
make that decision. Like I wassaying that person who was
trying to hold on to that codeso tightly, like there's no one
(31:09):
behavior that leads in. I mean,sometimes there's something
terribly egregious, butgenerally speaking, for most
human beings, there isn't onebehavior that goes into deciding
whether or not you know you arethe person who retains their
role or doesn't retain theirrole. So I just want to
acknowledge this moment in timethat we're living in right now,
because some of our listenersmight be in that scenario. And I
(31:29):
just want to you know you stillneed to you still need to
protect yourself. That's thethere are things that matter
much more than than anythingelse, and your well being, which
is, what can happen if you aretoo generous, yeah, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (31:44):
What can happen when you're too generous and you
you burn yourself out. Burnoutis real. Burnout is really real,
really. That's a whole othertopic.
Indra Klavins (31:55):
That's a glass of wine topic we have. We have a
whole we have, you know, weshould actually start adding
glasses of wine next to thetopics, you're like, Oh, those
are the ones that we might youknow, those are the harder ones.
Those are the big feelingtopics, any other thoughts and
things and suggestions that youcan offer some of our listeners,
Amanda Jane Lee (32:16):
no, I think we covered we covered it well, I
like that. We came up with thismetaphor and stuck with it. Of
the library and the library. Weworked hard on that metaphor. We
worked hard on that metaphor.And, you know, we love a good
metaphor.
Indra Klavins (32:31):
Love a good metaphor. Metaphors are useful
as long as everyone else learnsknows what they are. You know,
maybe that's a hot topic foranother day too, when to use
metaphors. But they're so usefulfor explaining something that's
really complicated. The onething, as you're saying, hadn't
thought of this before, thelast, the last, last little bit
of advice, laughter. Have alittle humor with it all. Like,
(32:54):
you know, when I'm setting aboundary, if I make it funny,
people will start laughing,like, oh yeah, that's really so
I'm like, I'm like, did you ask?You? Ask, you ask me this every
single time I send, I have anautomated email that send you
the information every singlemonth, because I know what time
you're doing this, you don'tneed to ask me anymore. Like,
you laugh a little bit like,like laughter will get through a
lot of this too. It helps withthe letting go. So
Amanda Jane Lee (33:16):
right, the Don't make me regret. How to be
trying to be helpful.Sweatshirts. I think everyone
who sees this laughs at first.They're just like, Oh, haha,
that's, that's actually reallygood.
Indra Klavins (33:28):
Even the people who are frustrating me at that
moment, they look they're like,I know why you've got, I know
why you got that. So I'm like, Iknow. I'm like, right? Like, you
should get, you should get,like, you know, some credit for
this.
And they laugh because we needto learn how to laugh at
ourselves. We need to learn howto laugh at ourselves more in
life. But anyway, yeah, Amanda,as always, I am grateful to have
(33:51):
you as a partner in crime inthis. This is This is fun. This
is fun for us. Hopefully it'sfun for our listeners. Hopefully
everybody gets a littlesomething out of it. I know I
get something out of everysingle episode, so thank you to
you. Thank you to everyone wholistened, and I hope you all
join us again next time when wevisit another topic from the
messy middle bye, everyone
Amanda Jane Lee (34:12):
bye, everyone .
Hi, I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?I'm great. How are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
Indra, I'm good. I'm good.
Indra Klavins (00:22):
You know, I was thinking, have you ever met a
librarian who doesn't want totell you about their library?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:27):
No, I and I've met librarians. I've just never
met a librarian who doesn't wantto talk about their library.
100% I follow a couple ofdifferent librarians on Tiktok
and the things that they I findthem fascinating. But they share
everything they share. They wantto share everything. They want
to share everything. And it's solike, there's just this, there's
(00:48):
this generosity that that likeexudes from them, that exudes
from them. So like they they'rereally, you know, they seem like
they're trying to just create acommunity. Make sure you feel
supported, make sure that you'reloved, make sure that you you
get what you need to, I don'tknow, right? Make sure you have
the information that you wantand need. Make sure that your
you know your curiosity is beingsatisfied,
Indra Klavins (01:11):
and they'll tell you things that you didn't even
know. They're like, Hey, did youknow that our library also rents
out jello molds, so you need tobuy all your own or whatever.
Each library has got its ownthing.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:21):
That's awesome. I didn't know that libraries
rental too.
Indra Klavins (01:25):
They do, they do. They like, it's nothing that
I've taken advantage of. Butsome of them have, like, some of
my favorite ones are like thatI've heard about is where they
have, like, even maker spacesthat you can actually go and do
things in. And like, you can,you can do all sorts. And you
rent out puzzles. You can do alot of stuff, like talk to your
if you want to know a lot ofstuff about a lot of things,
(01:46):
talk to your local librarian.But then we've got on the other
end of the spectrum, theinformation hoarders, the people
who will not let go of a singlething. Do you know they? They
won't. They hold on to it all.Doesn't matter what it is. They
just won't talk to you about it.I don't know. Have you ever
found anyone like that, whetherit's in your personal life or
the professional life,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:06):
yeah, um, just people who go around collecting
information and, like, donothing to share that
information with anyone. It'stheirs. It's it's my my mind.
Indra Klavins (02:18):
You know it's the worst because, like, I think
that the worst moments are,you're in a meeting and, you
know, you've been trying to findX, Y and Z piece of material for
like, weeks. You've spoken toeverybody that you can in the
entire company. And then you'rein a meeting and you're talking
to your boss, you know, andyou're like, Hey, I'm completely
blocked because I can't find X,Y and or z, I can't find any of
(02:41):
these things. And your colleaguewho's been sitting at a desk
next to you for all these threeweeks, much longer than that,
says, Oh, I know where to findthat. You're like, Dude,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:51):
I know where to find that. Like, thanks for
sharing that information. Canyou tell me where to find it?
Oh, well,
Indra Klavins (03:00):
they are so I'll say selfish. They're so selfish,
but, you know, I don't know. Idon't know. That's my impression
most, not always, but
Amanda Jane Lee (03:09):
not always. Yeah, I think I've run into
people who are unintentionalhoarders.
Indra Klavins (03:17):
There's that too.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:18):
Yeah, of just like, oh, I have this
information. I encountered thisinformation, or I did this thing
and, like, I just did it and Ididn't document it, and, like,
I'm just moving on, like I I'mjust so busy and I don't have
the time or capacity, or evenjust the thought of, oh, maybe
someone else could benefit fromthis
Indra Klavins (03:35):
100% like, they're, you know, I think that
that's, I think that last thingis, what was coming to mind as
you're talking is that theydon't I sometimes have
information. I don't evenrealize that that's useful. I
thought everybody knew, like,it's not, it's not a I'm not
trying to protect it. I justdidn't. I just didn't think that
others didn't know that. Cool.Now
Unknown (03:56):
I know right? Like, Didn't everyone get that email?
I thought everyone did.
Indra Klavins (04:00):
The answer, yeah, the answer is often enough, no,
but you know. And then there'sfolks that land somewhere in the
middle. There's folks that youknow tend to, they love to tell
you about everything that's intheir library, so to speak, but
they may not tell you about allthe things. Actually, it's not
everything. It's they'll tellyou about enough of it. They'll
tell you about the publicprogramming. They'll tell you
about, like, what's going on inthe in they'll tell you what's
(04:23):
going on over the next few days,and maybe they wins the next
town hall, but there might besome stuff that they hold back.
So,
Unknown (04:29):
right, like here, you know, I have a collection of
rare books, right, that I'm justgonna keep to myself because
that's mine, and I'll bust itout for for someone who's really
interested or who will askdirectly about it? Yeah, just
there's, there's a piece of thatlibrary that isn't like, here
you go, here is everything.
Indra Klavins (04:50):
And that totally makes sense, because you know,
if you're talking aboutsomething like a precious book,
like, if everybody wanted to seethe first edition of whatever.
Your favorite book is, I don'tknow what's popular these days,
but then, then, then that bookcould get damaged, that book
could get frayed, that book, alot of things could happen to
(05:11):
that book. So you totally youknow, there is something so
beautiful about the thatlibrarian who wants to share
everything. There is somethingthat can be really frustrating
with a person who's hoardinginformation and is keeping their
secret stash of their Jr tokenfirst editions all to
themselves, and don't let themout for you know, to see the
date light of day. And thenthere's like the folks who you
(05:32):
know will share something likethey might share the most recent
publication of the Tolkienbooks, but might keep that
secret one to the side. I mean,I have not read a lot of token
books, but I know there's a lotof collectors of those out
there,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:45):
right? Yeah, there's just something to be
appreciated and acknowledgedabout the people who are in that
middle space. And I think, Imean, I said middle this is the
messy middle matters. It's thatmiddle space of you have
information, but you're nothoarding it for yourself, right?
But you're also not like, here'severything, here's my entire
(06:07):
library. And did you know it'severything and
Indra Klavins (06:10):
100% and, you know, like we've mostly spoken
about, you know, books andlibraries and things like that.
But this also applies at work. Imean, we did use some work
references in there, but, youknow, I think that this, this
behavior in the workplace. Can,you know, can be super.Knowledge
is power. Knowledge is power,right, you know, and some people
(06:31):
try and wield that power, likethe hoarders, I think sometimes
do. Or, you know, some peoplecan be constantly sharing
information or collectinginformation, and there is a tax
to that, so I don't know, whydon't we talk a little bit about
our information hoarders andsome of the experiences that
we've had in the workplace? Imean, I've got, I've got some
examples. I've got one from manymoons ago that just like sticks
(06:54):
with me to this day.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:56):
Yeah, but yeah, I've got an example in mine too.
There's, there's a and this hashappened a few times, right?
There's a person we'll, we'llcall them a lead, right? There's
a lead of a team who demands tobe included on every meeting,
demands to be included on everyemail, copied on every
(07:17):
communication, who, like, needsto have all of the information
about what we'll call it aproject, right? All of the
information, all of the details.And I think that that form of
micromanagement comes from aplace of fear, of like, oh, I
need this information. And if Idon't have this information, I
(07:39):
don't have that power, right? Idon't have that, that
information currency to to hold,to hold my position, or, like,
to keep my job.
Indra Klavins (07:50):
Yeah, totally. Like, it's, it's, it's so funny
that you say that, like, and itcan be, it can be a complicated
thing. Like, I think about, youknow, I'm trying to think about
I have an example, but I'mriffing off of what you said.
Like, I try and think of my owntendencies, like when I'm
leading a team, especially in aworkplace where knowledge is
constantly power. Like, I thinkmy favorite line to try and
(08:12):
avoid being that person who'strying to avoid being that
person is just really say, Hey,can you CC me on everything? I
promise you I'm not going tolurk. I just need to be able to
search it when I need to find itin my inbox. It in my inbox,
when somebody asks about it. Butthat's not what you're talking
about. You're talking about theperson who really just wants to
be in the middle of it all, likethey feel the need to be in the
(08:33):
middle of it all. And, and,yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:36):
right. They have to control. They have to
gate, keep that information and,and I think there's a piece of
it just going back to the theterm of hoarder, right? Like you
have this information and you'realso not doing anything to share
this information. It's you'rekeeping it to yourself. You're
you're being selfish about itbecause of reasons, right,
(08:58):
whatever your motivations mightbe, yeah.
Indra Klavins (09:01):
And I think that the I think that the other
behavior that I often see inthis scenario is where the
person, like, let's say theyhave a team of five people, just
for the sake of illustration,they they make sure that those
five people aren't reallysharing information with each
other and are only sharinginformation with lead, right? So
lead person doesn't want theteam to talk to each other. They
(09:24):
want to be the only person whohas eyes on all five different
streams, right? Which is its ownversion of like they're
compartmentalizing for the sakeof it. And it's not. It's Guess
what. Neither Amanda nor I haveworked in a place where nuclear
secrets are being shared, so wedidn't need to be able to fork
all that, you know, divide allthat information in that sort of
way. But, yeah, yeah, there is
Amanda Jane Lee (09:48):
right that person in this scenario that you
just described is a bottleneck,right there, the bottleneck they
it's not, it's not healthy. It'snot productive. It's it's just,
why are you being thisgatekeeper? Why are you being
the only person who's wieldingthis information?
Indra Klavins (10:11):
And I think you know that it's fear, it's fear
and the perception of power,which leads to my example, like
years and years ago, it was theearly, early aughts, and I was
working as a programmer, andwe're doing automated
publishing, of all things, butthe company that I was working
for was struggling. It was afterthe.com bust right there.
(10:32):
They're struggling to make endsmeet. And the lead of the team,
he was courting some informationspecifically on how to compile
and deploy the code, right andjob security. He thought it was
job security Heath, and thatwas, that was his Express
(10:53):
motivation. Was job security,and we did inevitably have team
cuts. And guess what? It didn'thelp him with his job security.
You know, it was, he may havebeen super talented, he may have
been really capable. He may havebeen a lot of different things.
But, you know, I would guess. Iwould guess I was not in the
(11:14):
decision making process. But Iwould guess that, you know, in
addition to him being probably ahigher paid employee, right?
That might have been a factor inthis, I don't know. But the fact
is, is that when you have anemployee who is feel that, you
feel like they're holding yourcode and your release is
hostage, it's not a greatfeeling for a leadership so, so,
(11:35):
like, I don't know if it's agreat way to ingratiate yourself
to the people who actually makethe decisions about who stays
and who goes? So,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:41):
yeah, and I think, you know, it's that job
security and that coming from aplace of fear you're not
actually protecting yourself. Ithink that's a really hard fact
to come to, come to terms withif you're that person,
Indra Klavins (12:03):
yeah. I mean, it's, it's like, what comes the
term that comes to mind is ascarcity mindset, right? Yes,
you know, I think that thatmight be a topic that we add to
our backlog of scarcity versusan abundance mindset, right? But
when you think that there's onlyso much to go around, you're
more likely to lead into thosehoarding activities, but not
(12:24):
something I aspire to, somethingthat I clearly avoid. I know,
Amanda, you actively avoidtrying to get into that kind of
space too. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:31):
yeah, I mean, you know, I, I like information.
I need information, like, justthe nature of what I've done as
a career, like, I needinformation, but I'm not going
to be the one to keep all thatinformation and be the only one
who has that information. I,again, like we talked about
earlier middle space of like, Ihave this information, but I'm
(12:54):
going to be, you know, I'm, I'mgoing to keep my my rare books
in the corner for like, when Ineed it,
Indra Klavins (13:01):
totally, totally, totally, totally, totally, I
love that. You and I, we alwayswind it back in the middle. We
always wind it back in themiddle. Um, so, but let's over
the other end of this extreme.Like, there are, you know,
sometimes I refer to myself as ascavenger of information. Like,
I'm the person who's like, like,I will seek out every possible
corner of every intranet,extranet, whatever we can find,
(13:23):
to figure out what somethingmeans. And, you know, a
librarian might do the same typeof thing, make sure everything
that that's that's in theircollection, like I want to
understand, so that I can helpeveryone else, you know, just
just running, you know, runningaround and scurrying around.
It's not a the intention, theenergy that I'm thinking of when
I think of like this librarianarchetype, isn't, you know,
(13:45):
somebody who's trying toscavenge just for themselves, or
collect for themselves, or, youknow they're they're really just
collecting because they want tobe able to help others with this
knowledge and information,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (13:55):
Going back to the librarian metaphor, right?
Like building that community,like building that space with
the things that are useful toall,
Indra Klavins (14:04):
yes, and there is, there's, there's more of
like this, we kind of thinkinglike, it's we, W, E, I don't
know, sometimes I don'tenunciate as clearly as I'd like
to, but like, yeah, it's about,it's about the greater good.
It's about the greater good,because libraries serve
communities. I mean, that's sortof why we were thinking of this
metaphor. Like, libraries arethere. They're the cornerstone
(14:26):
of communities, and, you know,they're more likely to share
information if you're in alibrary, versus, let's say, a
bookstore. We need to buy theinformation, right? That's sort
of another version ofgatekeeping, right? But I love,
I love a metaphor, folks, you'llhave to apologize. I like, I
have so sorry, but they're morelikely to share. There's a
generosity thing, you know, andI think that my favorite thing
(14:48):
that I so there's a couple ofthings that come to mind, you
know, when, when I'm thinkingabout being in librarian mode,
like the reality of it is, isthat most of my career has not.
Had a lot of authority. It's hada lot of influence. And, you
know, early on, somebody taughtme the lesson, like, Indra,
you're in the business offavors. You have no control over
(15:09):
anyone else. You need to collecta bunch of favors. I'm like,
okay, and one of the ways that Icollect favors, not as a, you
know, not as a mobster, who'slike, you owe me one. I'm from
New Jersey, but, you know, not,I don't, I don't live up to that
stereotype. I live up to a lotof other ones, but, but, you
(15:29):
know, it's really aboutcollecting that so that someday,
maybe you can get that person tohelp you, and they're more
likely to help you in the futurewhen you need help. So there is
this, you know, building,building of goodwill, building
of camaraderie, building oftrust. That happens when you do
share information, when peoplereally need it,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:47):
yeah, the building of goodwill, like the,
those were the words that poppedinto my brain. It's that good
will. It's that, that community,the feeling of trust. And it's
modeling. It's modeling goodbehavior, right? Like, I'm gonna
share this with you because Ithink it's useful to you and to
us and to we the community. Andby doing that, I'm showing you
(16:12):
that it's okay and encouragedfor you to do the same. Like, if
you come across information thatyou think is helpful for the
team, yeah, please share it.
Indra Klavins (16:22):
Yeah, well, and that's the thing is, like, it's,
it is that it's, I'm glad thatyou went there. It's the, you
know, I'm going to share it withyou. My expectations that you
share it with somebody else,and, or contribute to the
knowledge when you have it, youknow, and, and just like
fostering it, or even in ameeting being like, somebody
brings up a good piece.Fantastic. Thank you for sharing
(16:43):
that bit of information. Can youplease add it to the team wiki
or the team Slack channel or theteam whatever the knowledge
repository is for that team andmodeling that behavior, I think,
is so important and encouraging,that behavior is so important.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:59):
Yeah, I think that was a callback to our words
matter episode of like, creatingthis glossary, creating the
glossary for the benefit of thecommunity, like this is
important for others, and we'regoing to share it with you,
Indra Klavins (17:13):
yeah, but I'd say, you know, one of the things
that I've experienced when I'mtoo far into librarian mode,
right? Is that my proverbialdoorbell never stops ringing.
Everyone's like, hey Indra.Where is this? Hey Indra.
Where's the that? Hey Indra,where's the this? How Indra?
Like it can be exhausting wheneverybody thinks of you as that
(17:37):
center of knowledge, and youbecome a bottleneck, which is
even besides being exhausted,you feel like you're a choke
point on communication, whichfeels even worse than that,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:47):
right? It's, it's the other side. It's, I was
gonna say dark side, but it'snot the really the side, right?
It's the other side of havinginformation. It's when you, when
you model yourself to to to bethat person, to be the
librarian, right? Like you showothers that you are the
librarian, that you haveinformation that may cause
(18:09):
people to expect thatinformation from you, and that's
not always the case. Or maybeyou do have that information,
but you're not open. 24/7 toshare everything. Hey, Indra.
Hey Indra. About this? Do youknow anything about that? It's
exhausting.
Indra Klavins (18:25):
It's exhausting. And some of the stuff doesn't
even require like knowledge.They just want to talk to
someone.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:34):
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (18:36):
they'll, they'll be like, Hey, I was just
thinking, you know, you becomethat. Well, maybe, maybe being
colleagues pseudo therapists isanother topic for another day,
but you kind of feel that way.But you know which, which
actually brings, brings us tothe middle, you know, there's,
there's somewhere there is ahappy medium you're talking
about a little bit earlier.There's a happy medium hoarding
(18:57):
information and being the personthat everyone turns to for
absolutely bit of knowledgethat's out there. Right for the
most extreme verse in thelibrarian, you know, you know, I
love invoking the like 80, someversion of the 8020 rule. It's a
very, you know, common ratiothat that gets thrown around in
life and in business. But, youknow, I I've worked really hard
(19:22):
to figure out, like, how do Icreate the boundaries so that I
don't get exhausted? Because Ihave been that person, like I,
if I look back at my performancereviews, which I'm sure I have
on some drive somewhere, likeIndra, boundaries, you're really
helpful, but you need someboundaries. So, yeah, I don't
know. You're, you're Amanda,you've been, you're, you're
fantastic at drawing boundariesaround things.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:44):
I try to be. It's a work in progress, but,
but, yeah, I try to be, becausewithout boundaries, you just
burn yourself out. Yeah, and Ithink it's a good segue to if
you're watching the video, wehave matching sweatshirts. So
that say, "Don't make me regrettrying to be helpful."
Indra Klavins (20:05):
Yeah, yeah. This is, this is, this is evidence of
a time and place when Amanda andI were like, we need to draw
more boundaries and we need aphysical reminder.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:17):
Do you want to tell the story Indra? These were
your words.
Indra Klavins (20:22):
These are my words. These are my words. I'll
I can tell this story, but well,you'll tell me if I got it right
or wrong, because memoriesaround these things can be a
little bit fuzzy, but
Amanda Jane Lee (20:31):
yeah, I don't even remember what the specifics
were, and maybe you do. I justremember that these were your
words, and our whole team waslike, that needs to go on a
shirt, yeah?
Indra Klavins (20:40):
And I made sure my whole team had got this
sweatshirt that says, Don't makeme regret trying to be helpful.
So we were going through. It wasa challenging time in the
company that we're working at.You know, it was a challenging
time, but this scenario, if I'mremembering correctly, it was
like November, Decembertimeframe, I think that it had
to do with getting, like, yearend reviews or year end
(21:03):
reflections, or something aroundyear end processes into a
system. And anyone who's workedin a company with HR who has
these review processes knowsthat there's, like, really hard
deadlines. You know, it's kindof the same as, like, open
enrollment for health benefits,like there's a hard deadline you
need to get it done. And if youdon't get it done, you're going
(21:24):
to have some problems that,right? You're going to be locked
out of the system, like youactually cannot do anything
after the deadline, right? And,you know, let's say it was, I
mean, let's say it's with selfreflections for a year end
review, which is what I think itwas like you you won't be able
to use your words to advocatefor your year end bonus or a
(21:44):
potential promotion, or anythingelse like so there is a reason
that, you know, everybody mightwant to get their thing in
right. And so we'd receivedmultiple email, I think I saw
there was an email, and theremay have even been a Slack
message in one of the big, giantchannels for the all the
employees in the company thatwent out. And because I've
(22:04):
worked with human beings longenough to know that I you know,
they don't always catcheverything. I took the message,
I took a snippet of it, and Iposted it in our teams are we
were working for an engine, wewere supporting an engineering
team. We posted in the slash.I'm like, Hey folks, by the way,
don't know if you notice thatyou know your emails or you were
(22:25):
paying attention to Slackchannel, but the deadline for X,
Y and Z is next Wednesday,and Iand I have and because I've been
around the block a few times, Isaid I don't have any further
answers to any questions relatedto this. It's not my process. I
don't know anything. Check youremail. Check in with our HR
partner to find out if you haveany sort of questions. If you do
(22:47):
read the email first, check withthem. Second, the number of at
Indra, direct messages that Igot or like in thread in the
thing. Indra, how do I do it?Indra, why is it this way?
Indra, why I hate that formfield? Indra, Indra. Indra. I
was like, folks, right? I wastrying to be helpful here. I was
trying to make sure that you allsaw there was a deadline, and I
(23:07):
told you I don't know anythingmore about this than is written
in that email,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:13):
right? Like, I'm just the messenger. I'm I'm
so sorry I don't have theinformation for you, but I told
you this,
Indra Klavins (23:20):
oh my gosh, but it was, it was, it was actually
evidence that they were lookingfor the librarian who's going to
sit them down, give them acookie, make sure, make sure
that they eat their vegetablesfor them, right? Not even make a
smoothie for them. Eat theirvegetables for like, I can't do
this, and I don't have anyanswers, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (23:42):
You were trying to be the helpful librarian and
say, Hey, this is importantinformation for you all to know.
Not sure if you saw it and inthe stacks and stacks of books
we have, but I'm calling it outfor you. I don't know anything
else about this, but you know,like there's action to be taken.
There are other ways to findthis information. If you like. I
(24:07):
don't know anything. Pleasedon't ask me. I don't make me
regret trying to be helpful.Don't make me regret trying to
be helpful.
Indra Klavins (24:13):
And one thing I do not regret is having
sweatshirts made for the entireteam. Everyone got to choose
their particular cut andwhatever, but, and maybe someday
when we do merch, if peoplereally have a desire for Don't
make me regret trying to behelpful, we might do that, you
know. Have have them up forpeople, so everyone else can
join in on the silliness fun.But it's so true every workplace
(24:34):
that I've worn it at, like, on ameeting, you know. So they're
like, Oh, that's funny. I'mlike, yeah. They're like, I see
why you wear it? I'm like, Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:41):
Yeah, same. I think every meeting I I've worn
this sweatshirt too. When I'm oncamera, there have been people
either messaging me or evensaying on the B day, wow. You're
sure it's great. Where can I getone?
Indra Klavins (24:55):
Get one. So, I mean, you know, I'd love to talk
about, like, the things thathelp you, that work for you to
get back into that middle.Because I think, you know,
extreme on anything never reallyworks, right? It's it. Life is
mostly spent in the middle. Lifeis mostly spent in the gray.
Life is rarely black and white,you know. And for folks who are
(25:18):
on one end of the spectrum orthe other, you know, I think
that our audience is less likelyto actually be on that hoarder
side. They're probably morelikely to be on the librarian
side, and they're gettingoverwhelmed. They feel like they
feel like they feel like theimage that always comes to mind
is like Lucy, Lucy from thePeanuts, like, I love her advice
(25:40):
for five cents, thing, you know,but, you know, it's like, but,
you know, Lucy, sometimes I feltlike Lucy without a booth,
without any sort of hours, likeit was just a boot that was
expected to always be open. But
Amanda Jane Lee (25:55):
right, right, this isn't 7-11 we're not open.
You know, 24 hours a day in themiddle of the night for you to
come in and get whatever youneed. There's, yeah, I love that
you brought up Lucy, becausethere's a just immediate image
in my brain, right, of Lucy ather booth, like, you know, five
(26:15):
cents, and this is when she's ather booth, and this is when she
she's available for to giveadvice, and when she's not at
her booth, that's it. You don'tget advice. And if you don't
have the five cents, you don'tget advice either, right?
There's have to be, yeah, yeah.I think it's just setting that
boundary and an expectation foryourself and for others.
Indra Klavins (26:38):
And it can be exhausting. You know, sometimes
one of the things that I've Istill remember exactly my people
manager at the time, when I was,I was learning the skill the
hard way was, you know, I wouldsay that he's like, Indra, you
need to set more boundaries. I'mlike, Yeah, but it's, it's
easier for me to do it for themthan it is for me to teach that
(27:00):
like to constantly have toremind them to go to the wiki to
get the information themselves.He's like Indra. He's like, I on
a per transaction basis, you'reright, but over the course of
time, you're never going tothat. You're never going to
stop. The only way you can stopit is to put in that little bit
of extra effort now so that theyactually start doing it
(27:22):
themselves.
Amanda Jane Lee (27:23):
Yep, yeah. I think, I think that's great
advice for the librarians of theworld who either are exhausted
or on their way to gettingexhausted and burnt out by by
being the keeper of information,and by, whether intentionally or
unintentionally, building thatreputation for themselves, that
(27:45):
they are the InformationLibrary. I also think there's,
there's some guidance that wecan give for like you said, you
know, are the people who listento this probably aren't
hoarders, at least notintentionally, right? Exactly?
Yeah, at the beginning of ourconversation, I talked about the
(28:07):
unintentional hoarding. So youknow, if you if you feel like
maybe you are a bit of anunintentional hoarder, where you
don't share information, eitherbecause you're too busy or
whatever the reason may be, Iwould invite everyone to just do
a little bit of self reflectionand and figure out, like, Is
(28:29):
there information that I comeacross or like, are there things
that I do that others canbenefit from, for, for the
greater good to To be a littlebit more of a librarian.
Indra Klavins (28:42):
Yeah. And as you're talking I was also
thinking about, like a lot ofyou know, when I'm an onboarding
a new team member who is in aprogram management or an
operations role, like thedefault behavior for a large
chunk of those folks tends to beI want to prove myself to be
useful. So people come to mebecause I know I'm in the
(29:03):
business of favors, right? So,like, that's, that's the that's
the energy that you lead with,and that is the way that you
often get you ingratiateyourself to the teams that
you're supporting. So they doinvite you to meetings. They do
see the value in you. But youknow, I think that asking
yourself, doing that reflection.You're talking about Amanda on a
(29:23):
periodic basis. Like, you know,let's say you are brand new to
the organization, like, youknow, maybe every, every month,
like, Okay, I'm being thatperson to get pulled in. Is it
too far yet? Right? Is it toofar yet? Like, create these.
They put something on yourcalendar that like, has you do
that self reflection to say,hey, is this the moment in time
(29:46):
where I back off? And, you know,it can be scary to back off,
because, you know, will theystill love you? Will they still
invite you if you're notconstantly answering the
questions? Spoiler, yes,probably the odds are good if
you're doing your job well,probably, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (30:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I you know there's,
there's a part of what you youjust said that struck the the
idea of, again, a scarcitymindset, right? And that fear,
that motivation, being motivatedby fear, and it's like, no, you
(30:21):
can let go of some of that, youcan let go of some of that, or
you can pull back. It'll befine.
Indra Klavins (30:27):
It'll be fine. And at where, if it's not fine,
this is probably not the reasonwhy it's not fine. Because, you
know, I think that when you'rewhen you were just talking about
fear and scarcity, I'm thinkingabout a lot of people are
looking for roles right now, youknow, or they're or they watched
a lot of friends exit or beexited from their organization,
(30:48):
and you feel like, oh my gosh, Igotta. Need to prove myself.
Even more. Like, take a breath.You need to take care of
yourself. And, you know, nothaving the answer for everyone
at every single moment, that'snot the thing that's going to
make that decision. Like I wassaying that person who was
trying to hold on to that codeso tightly, like there's no one
(31:09):
behavior that leads in. I mean,sometimes there's something
terribly egregious, butgenerally speaking, for most
human beings, there isn't onebehavior that goes into deciding
whether or not you know you arethe person who retains their
role or doesn't retain theirrole. So I just want to
acknowledge this moment in timethat we're living in right now,
because some of our listenersmight be in that scenario. And I
(31:29):
just want to you know you stillneed to you still need to
protect yourself. That's thethere are things that matter
much more than than anythingelse, and your well being, which
is, what can happen if you aretoo generous, yeah, yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (31:44):
What can happen when you're too generous and you
you burn yourself out. Burnoutis real. Burnout is really real,
really. That's a whole othertopic.
Indra Klavins (31:55):
That's a glass of wine topic we have. We have a
whole we have, you know, weshould actually start adding
glasses of wine next to thetopics, you're like, Oh, those
are the ones that we might youknow, those are the harder ones.
Those are the big feelingtopics, any other thoughts and
things and suggestions that youcan offer some of our listeners,
Amanda Jane Lee (32:16):
no, I think we covered we covered it well, I
like that. We came up with thismetaphor and stuck with it. Of
the library and the library. Weworked hard on that metaphor. We
worked hard on that metaphor.And, you know, we love a good
metaphor.
Indra Klavins (32:31):
Love a good metaphor. Metaphors are useful
as long as everyone else learnsknows what they are. You know,
maybe that's a hot topic foranother day too, when to use
metaphors. But they're so usefulfor explaining something that's
really complicated. The onething, as you're saying, hadn't
thought of this before, thelast, the last, last little bit
of advice, laughter. Have alittle humor with it all. Like,
(32:54):
you know, when I'm setting aboundary, if I make it funny,
people will start laughing,like, oh yeah, that's really so
I'm like, I'm like, did you ask?You? Ask, you ask me this every
single time I send, I have anautomated email that send you
the information every singlemonth, because I know what time
you're doing this, you don'tneed to ask me anymore. Like,
you laugh a little bit like,like laughter will get through a
lot of this too. It helps withthe letting go. So
Amanda Jane Lee (33:16):
right, the Don't make me regret. How to be
trying to be helpful.Sweatshirts. I think everyone
who sees this laughs at first.They're just like, Oh, haha,
that's, that's actually reallygood.
Indra Klavins (33:28):
Even the people who are frustrating me at that
moment, they look they're like,I know why you've got, I know
why you got that. So I'm like, Iknow. I'm like, right? Like, you
should get, you should get,like, you know, some credit for
this.
And they laugh because we needto learn how to laugh at
ourselves. We need to learn howto laugh at ourselves more in
life. But anyway, yeah, Amanda,as always, I am grateful to have
(33:51):
you as a partner in crime inthis. This is This is fun. This
is fun for us. Hopefully it'sfun for our listeners. Hopefully
everybody gets a littlesomething out of it. I know I
get something out of everysingle episode, so thank you to
you. Thank you to everyone wholistened, and I hope you all
join us again next time when wevisit another topic from the
messy middle bye, everyone
Amanda Jane Lee (34:12):
bye, everyone .
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