April 23, 2025 • 29 mins
n this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the world of self-assessments. Whether they’re assigned to us by HR or are one of those eerily specific online quizzes we can’t help but take, they explore the pros and cons of personality and performance evaluations, sharing personal stories and asking: When do these tools help us grow? And when do they box us in?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I'm good. How are you
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm good. I'm good. Today's topic is self
assessment.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:25):
It's gonna be a fun one.
Indra Klavins (00:27):
It is it is it is it is. So just to make sure we
level set with everyone, selfassessments are tools that are
an evaluation of oneself orone's action and attitudes, in
particular, one's performance atjob or learning a task. So it's
really intended to for anobjective standard. So just so
(00:47):
everyone has just like, aworking definition that we're
working about working with. ButAmanda, when you think of self
assessments, what comes to mind?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:54):
So I'm a millennial, and there was a time
where buzzfeed quizzes were allthe rage. You share, you know,
you take the quiz, you shareyour results on social media. It
was all for fun. What DisneyPrincess Are you? What cup of
coffee are you like? What pizzatoppings you know fit your
personality? And yeah, likethat. That is what comes to mind
(01:17):
when it comes when I think ofself assessments and like
personality like personalityquizzes, yeah, also, you know,
again, millennial authors,viewpoints aside. Harry Potter,
Indra Klavins (01:32):
which house are you?
Amanda Jane Lee (01:33):
Which house are you? Potter, more quiz, you
know, which Hogwarts house areyou? What did the Sorting Hat
put you in and, yeah, it wasjust all for fun. You know, you
tell your friends and you talkabout it.
Indra Klavins (01:48):
Yeah, I think that the sorting hat is actually
a really interesting because,you know, you see people, and it
reminds me of one of my, one ofmy when I think of assessments,
the scenario that comes up in mymind, like the sorting hat. For
those of you not familiar withHarry Potter lore, the Sorting
Hat helps the students decidewhich house they're going to be
in at this boarding school. Andsome of the students are
(02:10):
thrilled with their selections,and some of the students are
like, the Sorting Hat put mewhere
Amanda Jane Lee (02:16):
I know the categories are like, good, evil,
smart and other,
Indra Klavins (02:20):
right, right? That's how it feels when you're
getting sorted, right? And youknow when I think of self
assessments, my scenario is, Iwas working at TD Ameritrade. We
had, it was our first yearhaving some interns from the
teak Fellowship, which is aprogram that helps people with
great potential findopportunities, whether it's
through school or the workplaceor whatever it might be. And one
(02:44):
of the tools we were using atTDA was Strengths Finder. So
talked to HR, and I said, Hey,you know, thinking about doing
Strengths Finder with thesefolks, you know, any concerns,
like, no, that's great. Do youwant my support in the
conversation? I'm like, Sure,great. I would love to. I could
totally facilitate it on my own,but you know, would love your
support. Gave this to to thesestudents or these young, young
(03:08):
adults. Rather, they some ofthem were students. Some of them
were young adults. They were allin different, different
scenarios, and the despondencyfrom some of them. So Strengths
Finder is a tool that helps youselect your top five strengths,
and like the hypothesis aroundthings Strengths Finder is
you're, you know, if you're notsix foot six, it's unlikely that
(03:31):
you're going to be an NBA star.So why don't you capitalize on
your strengths and try and worktowards something that aligns
with your strengths? Right? Soall these folks really wanted, I
don't remember exactly whichstrength it was, but they all
wanted one particular strength,and most of them didn't get it.
And they were so devastated,because they were so most of
these folks are very communitydriven, wanting to uplift their
(03:53):
community as they were upliftingthemselves. And the one
attribute, or the one, the onestrength, that they all aligned
with that. They're like theywanted it. And the HR person
said to them, he said, Justbecause you didn't get that as
one of your top five strengthsdoes not mean that it is a
strength. You know, it's one ofyour top five. But, you know, in
(04:17):
that scenario, like I alwaysthink of it and my chiming, and
she gave a very professionalanswer. And mine was, all of
these assessments are like aCosmo quiz,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:26):
right?
Indra Klavins (04:26):
Don't take it too seriously, like it's, you know,
like Cosmo quizzes can beanything, including which
lipstick shade, where, whichlooks lips shape is your
personality. Like it's, youknow, it can get
Amanda Jane Lee (04:37):
it's like a Buzzfeed quiz. It's like, What
pizza topping Are you a pizza,
Indra Klavins (04:42):
right? And it's kind of, it's kind of fun. And
I, you know when, anytime Itake, anytime we would take
those buzzfeed quizzes, or evena Cosmo quiz, I try and see,
like, if I change, how manyanswers do I need to change to
get the one that I really want?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:55):
Oh, same, same. Like, everybody wants to be in
Gryffindor, right?
Indra Klavins (04:59):
It, because that's where the hero is, right.
Amanda Jane Lee (05:02):
That's where the hero is. So, you know, you
just change all of your youranswers to brave, and you know
valor, and you know doing theright thing, and you're going to
be a Gryffindor, all
Yeah, I mean, I recently met a bunch of people
Indra Klavins (05:12):
right, but you know, it's, it's, you know, but
the question, it begs thequestion, like, why are we
seeing so many personalityassessments in the workplace,
like, it's fine. On Buzzfeed,it's fine. And Cosmo, like,
that's sort of entertainment,you know. And you know, it's
clearly pseudoscience. You know,it's not, if you even include
the word science at all, themeaning of a Buzzfeed quiz or a
(05:35):
Cosmo quiz, but, but why? Whyare they showing up? And, like,
when are they useful and whatare they useful for? Because,
you know, these young adults hadwore their heart on their
sleeves so you could see theirdisappointment. But, you know,
in the workplace, you may notalways see everyone's
disappointment and when theydidn't get the thing that they wanted.
(06:00):
who, I'll call them newcolleagues, right? Like, met
them for the first time inperson, and yeah, we got to talk
about things that weren'tspecifically work related, yep,
um. And one of the things thatcame up without even knowing
that we were going to do apodcast episode about this,
without even knowing one of thethings that came up was the
(06:23):
Myers, Briggs Personality,
the most famous of workplace, or infamous of
workplace,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:31):
famous, infamous, the most well known, I
think. And you know, everybodyled with their personality type.
You know, I know that I'm anINTJ. I take it for fun every
few years. I'm consistently anINTJ, right? And I think it's
like introverted, forget whatthe end
Indra Klavins (06:52):
I've got. I'm an INTJ or an ENTJ, depending on
the day of the week. And I can,I looked up, I've been digging
out all my old self assessmentover right? I can, yeah, it's
like,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:02):
I'm introverted. I'm whatever the n
is, I'm thinking versus feeling,and the J is judging versus
perceiving. Anyway, like it's agood tool and framework. Like,
when you're talking to someonenew, you it's a it's a socially
acceptable way to be like, Yeah,I'm introverted,
Indra Klavins (07:28):
and it's a common language. I mean, I've also seen
where it becomes weaponized,like, what, what? What is your
Myers, Briggs. It's like, whoa.Human beings don't go into
boxes. Like we have this desireto want to categorize and
automate everything, because ithelps with a lot of different
things. But no, I'm a humanbeing. I'm dynamic in this part
(07:50):
of my life. I might be one thingin that part of my life, I might
be another. But, yeah, yeah. Soyou know,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:56):
and depending on like, where you take like,
which site you take, the quiz onthat too. There's some give you
a scale, right? It's just like,yes, we put you in introverted,
but you're only like 60%introverted, as opposed to 90%
introverted. And you know it, itframes you like on the spectrum,
(08:24):
as opposed to like, everythingis black or white,
Indra Klavins (08:26):
100% 100% so, you know, I think that, you know, I
shared one of my examples that Ihave for my past. But, you know,
is there anything, whether it'sa good example or a bad example,
you know, Amanda's choice. Youknow, do you have a scenario of
another scenario? Excited, we'vebeen through a lot of these
(08:46):
different things in differentworkplaces that you want to
share it with everyone?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
Yeah, I don't know if it's a good or a bad
scenario, positive or negative,but it's a scenario that comes
to mind. So I worked at acompany that asked us to do the
DISC assessment, which is also acommon corporate one, right?
It's four quadrants. It's discs.The D is dominance, the i is
(09:13):
influence, the S is, I think,steadiness, and the C is
conscientiousness. I've gotclarity. I don't know they're
all I took I took it yesterday,so right. Anyway, you know, it
was a half day workshop. We tookthe quiz before the workshop,
and we use the workshop to talkabout our results and have have
(09:35):
the discussion that's actuallyvaluable. And one person on the
team got a result that we wereall surprised by, including
herself.
Indra Klavins (09:45):
Okay, okay,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:47):
she read the results and was like, I don't
think this is right. I want tosay that the test put her in
steadiness, which is, you know,like the even temper. Her the
patient, the accommodating, thedemocratic. And she was
definitely more the oppositeend, which is dominance, right?
(10:11):
So, you know, direct and resultsoriented and firm. And this
comes to mind because, I thinkit highlighted one of the
potential flaws of these selfassessments, right? Like, it's a
self assessment, so maybe shejust wasn't that self aware, or
(10:34):
maybe she was just in a sharing,collaborative mood when she took
the test, like, who knows? Andlike, there are many reasons the
test results were the way theywere. And I think it's just
going back to your, yourstatement of it shouldn't be
used to identify you. It's, it'sjust a tool to start
(10:58):
conversation
Indra Klavins (10:59):
100% and you know, I've been in in
conversations or organizationswhere, and we alluded to it a
little bit earlier, like, wherethese things get weaponized,
it's like, oh, but you're that,like, you don't get to do this
because you were categorized asa that, whoa. Like, again. Back
to that, that, that basketballanalogy. Maybe if I am, you
(11:22):
know, three foot two, I'm notthe one who you should be
putting on your basketball team.But, you know, there's, there's
a lot of gray in the world.Usually things aren't that
abundantly clear.
Amanda Jane Lee (11:33):
Right, right?
Indra Klavins (11:35):
And there might be reasons that this might
belong into that, or youshouldn't automatically exclude
things. Or, you know, I thinkthat when we're talking about
this as a potential topic, youwere talking about teams that
use this as a vetting criteriafor hiring decisions or
promotion decisions for thatmatter, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (11:55):
And again, like it's a tool, it shouldn't be,
you know, I think that adirector of whatever needs to be
needs to have an INTJpersonality type, and if you
don't fit that box, sorry, likeyou don't have the
qualifications, it shouldn't beas rigid as that,
Indra Klavins (12:16):
right? And, you know, and I love a good theme.
So today, I'm using my astrologymug that a dear friend of mine
gave me. But, you know, I thinkof it the same way that I think
of the way that I react to myhoroscope or tarot cards, like
it's a as much as what the toolis giving me, it's my reaction
to the results that's sometimeslike, if I'm working with myself
(12:39):
like, you know, we can, we'll gointo how working with teams,
these are useful, but, like,working with myself is so much
fun. Like, that's, that's wherethe juice is. Like, how did I
feel about that? Ooh, like, youknow, hmm. Like, is that true?
Is that not true? Why might thathave come up, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:56):
right? And I think, you know, we talk a lot
about self reflection, right?Sitting with yourself and and
really thinking about who youare, how you are, how you feel,
and this is just another toolfor self reflection and
understanding how you like tocommunicate or be communicated
(13:17):
with. Right is a really helpfuldetail to have about yourself
and to be able to put yourselfin one of these frameworks and
talk about it with the peopleyou you interact with, the
people you work with, I thinkallows better collaboration, and
(13:39):
it allows a better understandingof you, and you know, the way
you work with others, and viceversa, right? Hearing other
people's DISC personality typesallowed me to understand them
better and how to better workwith them. Yeah, no, I think
(13:59):
that there's,
Indra Klavins (14:01):
I love what you hit on there, like I love, I
love any tool or resource orwhatever that gives me language
for something that i iinherently understand but may
not be able to convey to others.And this is just another one of
those tools that allows us to dothat, and, you know, one of the
(14:23):
other ways. So my deepestexperience, you know, I
mentioned it earlier, isStrengths Finder. You know, I
spent seven years at TDAmeritrade, so I learned
StrengthsFinder there, and I'veapplied it in other places too,
but where it's been useful istaking the results. And each of
these frameworks, like disc hasits four Strengths Finder has
(14:44):
its I think it's got fivedifferent master categories that
these strengths land in, rightand taking a look at an entire
team, having everybody in theteam take that assessment, and
then mapping the results on aspreadsheet and see like, Are
you over constant? And I'll usethe language that's in Strengths
Finder. Are you overconcentrated in strategic
thinking, relationship,building, influencing,
(15:07):
executing, you know, oh, there'sonly four there too. They've got
four. But are they? Are you overindexed somewhere or under
indexed somewhere? And that'llexplain so much. You're like,
oh, you know, we are, you know,I've been part of teams where we
had little to no influencing,and we were wondering why we
couldn't get the rest of thecompany to understand our our
(15:30):
objectives and why we want to dosomething. Because we had no
influence. We had, like, it wasone of our weaker strengths. And
like, what we did then was to,you know, when we were
interviewing people for to roundout the team, not only were we
looking for those practicalskills of, can they do the job?
In this case, it was a designteam. Can they do the things
that are necessary for platformX, Y or Z, but do they have a
(15:53):
little bit of like, and wedidn't have them take the
assessment, but you get a sensefor certain things, like, did
they have a little bit of woothere? You know, do they have
somebody who has that that andWoo is a Strengths Finder
category. It's probably one ofmy favorite ones to say woo but,
and I have no but do can we findsomebody with some woo that can
(16:14):
help us out and round out thatskill set and round out our
team?
Amanda Jane Lee (16:18):
Yeah, I like what you touched upon there
about rounding out a team,right? I, I find this to be most
interesting, most helpful whenit comes to cross functional
teams. So not just a team ofprogram managers or not just a
team of engineers, but the crossfunctional team of somewhat of
(16:43):
people in, you know, inengineering, people in program
management, people on themarketing side, people on the
sales side, and just rallyingaround this, this common
language, this framework, andusing it To better understand
each other and each other'smotivations,
Indra Klavins (17:03):
yeah, and as you're talking, it also makes me
think that it gives it wouldgive me the language. It does
give me the language. When I'mtrying to explain to my team,
why do we care about how thesales team feels? Right, right?
It's like, hey, you know, theseare all the skills that are
necessary. Like they're low insome of the things are really
strong at but they're high insome of the things, like I said,
(17:25):
woo. I'm sure that most salespeople have got a little bit of
woo in them, right? You know, toto be able to to sell that
thing, and just understandingthat it's we want to be well
rounded as a as an organization,and some of our client base will
be also towards some of thosethings too. And wouldn't it be
nice if they were represented inthe room? In these business
discussions, I get designerslike that, all that kind of
(17:47):
stuff. But yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:50):
right. And I think, you know, it touches on
the empathy piece, right? It'slike, once you understand that
there's this, there are othercategories other than your own.
And truly understanding, youknow, how these people think,
how these people operate, howthese people like to
communicate. I think it justleads to better collaboration
(18:15):
across the board,
Indra Klavins (18:17):
right? And you know, the way that these the
frameworks lay things out. Theydon't the best ones don't call
one attribute better or worsethan the others. They're just
different. Yeah, they're justdifferent. And so it, it, it
(18:37):
gets a little bit of the it getsa little bit of the, oh gosh, I
can't think of a better phrase.It's a little bit of the pissing
match, like we're better thanthey are. They're better than we
like, we're just different.We're just different, not
better, not worse different.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:53):
Yeah, that. That reminds me of, you know, we
were talking about one of thesetests. It's called True Colors.
And I forget the actual categorythat this person was in, but the
conversation went somethinglike, I'm primarily a blue,
which means, you know, I valuerelationships and collaboration,
(19:16):
and I'm really low on gold,which, which which means, you
know, gold values structure andorganization and goals, and
that's probably a bad thing,right? And, and it's like, no,
I'm sure you can value goals andresponsibilities and all of
(19:40):
those things that make a goldpersonality a gold but those
just aren't the traits that younaturally are inclined to.
Indra Klavins (19:50):
Right? And you know, the more I work with
humans, the more I realize,Isn't it lovely that there's
someone who is the opposite ofme I may. I may they may not
ever be my best friend. Let's beclear. I might need to take them
in small doses, but I am sograteful. I'm going to go back
to sales teams. Sales teams,they have so much energy to talk
(20:13):
to people that I don't I can'tpeople as much as sales people
do, but I also know that mypaycheck doesn't come through if
they don't sell and if my teamsdon't deliver the thing that
they sell. So both of us arenecessary, you know, but I value
them. I value them, even if Idon't want to spend tons of time
(20:34):
with some of them.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:35):
Yeah, when you said that, what came to my mind
was, isn't it nice that thereare people who are really good
at maths.
Indra Klavins (20:43):
I love a good finance team too. Oh, my
goodness, I love a good lawyer.I mean, there's, there's certain
things that people compliance.People, they it's you. Some
people will have, like, anallergic reaction, as I'm
saying, some of these, thesefunctions, right? But I'm like,
No, I love them. I love them. Ilove that. They love to do the
thing that they do. And, youknow, I love the fact that
(21:05):
that's not my job,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:07):
right? I love the fact I love the fact that
they're that they do what theydo, and they love to do what
they do, and they're good atdoing what they do, because I'm
not those things
Indra Klavins (21:19):
100% 100% so I think that, you know, you said
empathy, I think that the otherpiece is curiosity, to me, that
goes hand in hand with empathy,like entering into, entering
into a conversation around theseassessments, with curiosity and
but I think that what we haven'ttouched on is, you know, some of
These tests and taking thesetests are mandatory, and
(21:42):
sometimes they come from ourpeople leader, which has a
certain weight to it. You know,our people manager, the leader
of our department. Sometimesthey come from human resources
or the people team that comeswith a different kind of weight,
right? And it can feel, it canfeel a little bit daunting. It
can feel like they're trying tostick you into a into a little
(22:03):
cubby hole, because I don't. Inmost cases, I haven't found that
that's the case. Like in mostscenarios, I have found that
that's the case because I, in myexperience, HR brings these
assess rolls these assessmentsout as a tool to help people
managers understand their peoplebetter, like that is generally
(22:25):
their motivation around thesethings. And again, that common
language, that common referencepoint, so the whole organization
is using a shared vocabularyaround things. But you know, it
can be a little bit scary, andit can be really frustrating
when you don't get your resultsthat you wanted. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:41):
yeah, yeah. And I think that takeaway there is
don't attach yourself tooclosely to your results,
because, like the example Ishared, maybe you were just
clicking the wrong buttons, oryou were just having a different
kind of day, or, you know, justthinking about the the DISC
(23:03):
assessment in particular, um,you know, dominance is a loaded
word, but that's one of thecategories, right? And, yeah,
and so, like, it's been a whilesince I've taken it, but I'm
sure the the statements on thequiz that identify with that
personality type read somethinglike, I have a strong
(23:27):
personality, and like wordsmatter, like that is a strong
statement. And like for you toidentify with that that that
might not feel good orcomfortable, even though that it
actually is you.
Indra Klavins (23:41):
So agreed, like I took a, I took a DISC assessment
yesterday, as I mentionedearlier, just to, just to you,
see what that one was like,right? See what the experience
is like. And it reminded me ofthe advice that I give to people
when they start to take thestrengths finder. The Strengths
Finder, I think it takes about15 minutes to complete. It's one
of the longer ones to complete,the questions feel redundant,
(24:06):
but I think that's part of thedesign of it. But like taking
the test, my advice everyone is,just plow through it. Don't
think, don't think too hard,don't judge too hard. Just plow
through it. It'll be what it'llbe, and it's going to be fine
because it is a Cosmo quiz. Itdoes not define you, you know.
And whatever comes back is anopportunity for me to look at
(24:26):
and, you know, like, if theywant to call me, there's this,
there's an assessment thatcalled me an avant garde. And
I've got very strong feelingsaround the words avant garde,
but I'm like avant garde, like,I don't identify myself as that,
like I think of art and fashionand flim, like they again,
anyway, I've digressed. Don't,don't attach yourself. Take that
avant garde thing. Okay, so theysaid, I'm an avant garde fine
(24:49):
like that. Doesn't define me. Idefine me, you know. And if it
is something that is being usedin a way that's. Disadvantaging
at you. That's your opportunityto talk to your people manager,
talk to your mentor, talk toyour partner in HR, or your
people team, differentorganizations. Call them
(25:09):
different things and say, Hey,this is my experience of what's
going on. Can I get a new oneand maybe take a new assessment,
or is there a differentassessment that would help me
better understand because a toolis not serving me?
Amanda Jane Lee (25:22):
Yeah, totally. And we mentioned this before,
but I think it's important tocall out that it's the
discussion that this sparks,that's the value, right? Like
Indra Klavins (25:34):
100%
Amanda Jane Lee (25:35):
just coming to the table and being like, I'm
primarily, you know, a dominanttype, or I'm an INTJ, and then
just leaving it at that. That'snot,
Indra Klavins (25:45):
what does that mean?
Amanda Jane Lee (25:48):
Helpful? I think you know, just leading
with curiosity, talking aboutit. And I'm sure all you know, I
keep on using INTJ becausethat's the type that I am. And
those are, those are the lettersthat flow like roll off the
tongue for me, yeah. But thereare others who are in T, J's,
and they're different from me.Like, you know, your your score,
(26:11):
on each of the the categoriescan be different. And so I think
it's just important tounderstand that it, it's just a
framework. It's not, you know,it's not a an assignment of what
kind of person you are. It'snot, not a value, no, it's not a
value. It's just something tospark conversation and to get to
(26:34):
know each other better,
Indra Klavins (26:35):
yeah, and I like that little bit of advice that
you had there, like embedded inthere, when someone says, and
I'm an INTJ and just, like,leaves, like, what does that?
Tell me more about that. Tell memore about that, because they
clearly wear that as anidentity. You know, I might
choose not to use my INTJ as anidentity, right? Like, I and E
depending on the day, like Isaid, but like, I don't use that
(26:58):
as my identity. They do. Whatdoes that mean to you? Like, how
does that how does that changehow you work? What does that
mean and how I should work withyou? What does that mean when it
comes to the things that you'rereally good at? You know, just
invite create it as a dooropening, and even if they just
put the door up with a doorlabel, you know, use it. Use it
(27:19):
as a vehicle to open up thatdoor and get to know them a
little bit better,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:23):
right? If they're an eye you know, that
means they're introverted. Whatdoes that mean? Does that mean,
you know, don't talk to me atthe team dinner, like, what does
that mean in terms to you, how Iwork with you, how I communicate
with you, what how you feelabout yourself?
Indra Klavins (27:41):
Yeah, yeah. I think we, we will someday have a
topic of introverts, extrovertsand ambiverts, because that's a
whole another type of thosepersonality types. But, yeah,
what does that mean? But, butthrough that work, through Susan
Cain's work, it is like, it islike, what does that mean to
you? Is really important. How,how do you like to how do you
(28:02):
like to recharge? How do youlike to work? You know, should I
be stopping by your desk everyfive seconds? Right? Introverts,
not so much. Extroverts, theywould love that, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:12):
right? Love the water cooler chat.
Indra Klavins (28:15):
Love it. Any other thoughts or anything else
that you want to add, I knowthat we like I said, we both
love and hate. I've mixedemotions around self
assessments, but find themoverall, rather valuable
anything else you want to add toshare with everyone before we
say goodbye to everyone for today,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:33):
not really. Yeah, I too find them valuable
if they're used the way they'reintended to be used just as a
tool again, and I just thinkthey're fun.
Indra Klavins (28:44):
They can be fun. Yes, they're fun. They help me
unlock my inner child. Of like,again, I feel like I'm sitting
in a dorm room fillingoutup myCosmo quiz. What's it gonna be?
Amanda Jane Lee (28:55):
Right? I yeah, I'm kind of inspired to go on
Buzzfeed right now and take abunch of silly quizzes.
Indra Klavins (29:02):
I like it. I like it. Let's do it anyway. Thank
you, Amanda, for being with us,for being with us, being with me
today and exploring the selfassessments. I'm going to figure
out how to do my closings alittle more cleanly in the
future, but I hope that everyonewho's listening joins us next
time. For another topic, for themessy middle, Bye, everyone.
Unknown (29:21):
Bye, you.
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I'm good. How are you
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm good. I'm good. Today's topic is self
assessment.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:25):
It's gonna be a fun one.
Indra Klavins (00:27):
It is it is it is it is. So just to make sure we
level set with everyone, selfassessments are tools that are
an evaluation of oneself orone's action and attitudes, in
particular, one's performance atjob or learning a task. So it's
really intended to for anobjective standard. So just so
(00:47):
everyone has just like, aworking definition that we're
working about working with. ButAmanda, when you think of self
assessments, what comes to mind?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:54):
So I'm a millennial, and there was a time
where buzzfeed quizzes were allthe rage. You share, you know,
you take the quiz, you shareyour results on social media. It
was all for fun. What DisneyPrincess Are you? What cup of
coffee are you like? What pizzatoppings you know fit your
personality? And yeah, likethat. That is what comes to mind
(01:17):
when it comes when I think ofself assessments and like
personality like personalityquizzes, yeah, also, you know,
again, millennial authors,viewpoints aside. Harry Potter,
Indra Klavins (01:32):
which house are you?
Amanda Jane Lee (01:33):
Which house are you? Potter, more quiz, you
know, which Hogwarts house areyou? What did the Sorting Hat
put you in and, yeah, it wasjust all for fun. You know, you
tell your friends and you talkabout it.
Indra Klavins (01:48):
Yeah, I think that the sorting hat is actually
a really interesting because,you know, you see people, and it
reminds me of one of my, one ofmy when I think of assessments,
the scenario that comes up in mymind, like the sorting hat. For
those of you not familiar withHarry Potter lore, the Sorting
Hat helps the students decidewhich house they're going to be
in at this boarding school. Andsome of the students are
(02:10):
thrilled with their selections,and some of the students are
like, the Sorting Hat put mewhere
Amanda Jane Lee (02:16):
I know the categories are like, good, evil,
smart and other,
Indra Klavins (02:20):
right, right? That's how it feels when you're
getting sorted, right? And youknow when I think of self
assessments, my scenario is, Iwas working at TD Ameritrade. We
had, it was our first yearhaving some interns from the
teak Fellowship, which is aprogram that helps people with
great potential findopportunities, whether it's
through school or the workplaceor whatever it might be. And one
(02:44):
of the tools we were using atTDA was Strengths Finder. So
talked to HR, and I said, Hey,you know, thinking about doing
Strengths Finder with thesefolks, you know, any concerns,
like, no, that's great. Do youwant my support in the
conversation? I'm like, Sure,great. I would love to. I could
totally facilitate it on my own,but you know, would love your
support. Gave this to to thesestudents or these young, young
(03:08):
adults. Rather, they some ofthem were students. Some of them
were young adults. They were allin different, different
scenarios, and the despondencyfrom some of them. So Strengths
Finder is a tool that helps youselect your top five strengths,
and like the hypothesis aroundthings Strengths Finder is
you're, you know, if you're notsix foot six, it's unlikely that
(03:31):
you're going to be an NBA star.So why don't you capitalize on
your strengths and try and worktowards something that aligns
with your strengths? Right? Soall these folks really wanted, I
don't remember exactly whichstrength it was, but they all
wanted one particular strength,and most of them didn't get it.
And they were so devastated,because they were so most of
these folks are very communitydriven, wanting to uplift their
(03:53):
community as they were upliftingthemselves. And the one
attribute, or the one, the onestrength, that they all aligned
with that. They're like theywanted it. And the HR person
said to them, he said, Justbecause you didn't get that as
one of your top five strengthsdoes not mean that it is a
strength. You know, it's one ofyour top five. But, you know, in
(04:17):
that scenario, like I alwaysthink of it and my chiming, and
she gave a very professionalanswer. And mine was, all of
these assessments are like aCosmo quiz,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:26):
right?
Indra Klavins (04:26):
Don't take it too seriously, like it's, you know,
like Cosmo quizzes can beanything, including which
lipstick shade, where, whichlooks lips shape is your
personality. Like it's, youknow, it can get
Amanda Jane Lee (04:37):
it's like a Buzzfeed quiz. It's like, What
pizza topping Are you a pizza,
Indra Klavins (04:42):
right? And it's kind of, it's kind of fun. And
I, you know when, anytime Itake, anytime we would take
those buzzfeed quizzes, or evena Cosmo quiz, I try and see,
like, if I change, how manyanswers do I need to change to
get the one that I really want?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:55):
Oh, same, same. Like, everybody wants to be in
Gryffindor, right?
Indra Klavins (04:59):
It, because that's where the hero is, right.
Amanda Jane Lee (05:02):
That's where the hero is. So, you know, you
just change all of your youranswers to brave, and you know
valor, and you know doing theright thing, and you're going to
be a Gryffindor, all
Yeah, I mean, I recently met a bunch of people
Indra Klavins (05:12):
right, but you know, it's, it's, you know, but
the question, it begs thequestion, like, why are we
seeing so many personalityassessments in the workplace,
like, it's fine. On Buzzfeed,it's fine. And Cosmo, like,
that's sort of entertainment,you know. And you know, it's
clearly pseudoscience. You know,it's not, if you even include
the word science at all, themeaning of a Buzzfeed quiz or a
(05:35):
Cosmo quiz, but, but why? Whyare they showing up? And, like,
when are they useful and whatare they useful for? Because,
you know, these young adults hadwore their heart on their
sleeves so you could see theirdisappointment. But, you know,
in the workplace, you may notalways see everyone's
disappointment and when theydidn't get the thing that they wanted.
(06:00):
who, I'll call them newcolleagues, right? Like, met
them for the first time inperson, and yeah, we got to talk
about things that weren'tspecifically work related, yep,
um. And one of the things thatcame up without even knowing
that we were going to do apodcast episode about this,
without even knowing one of thethings that came up was the
(06:23):
Myers, Briggs Personality,
the most famous of workplace, or infamous of
workplace,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:31):
famous, infamous, the most well known, I
think. And you know, everybodyled with their personality type.
You know, I know that I'm anINTJ. I take it for fun every
few years. I'm consistently anINTJ, right? And I think it's
like introverted, forget whatthe end
Indra Klavins (06:52):
I've got. I'm an INTJ or an ENTJ, depending on
the day of the week. And I can,I looked up, I've been digging
out all my old self assessmentover right? I can, yeah, it's
like,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:02):
I'm introverted. I'm whatever the n
is, I'm thinking versus feeling,and the J is judging versus
perceiving. Anyway, like it's agood tool and framework. Like,
when you're talking to someonenew, you it's a it's a socially
acceptable way to be like, Yeah,I'm introverted,
Indra Klavins (07:28):
and it's a common language. I mean, I've also seen
where it becomes weaponized,like, what, what? What is your
Myers, Briggs. It's like, whoa.Human beings don't go into
boxes. Like we have this desireto want to categorize and
automate everything, because ithelps with a lot of different
things. But no, I'm a humanbeing. I'm dynamic in this part
(07:50):
of my life. I might be one thingin that part of my life, I might
be another. But, yeah, yeah. Soyou know,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:56):
and depending on like, where you take like,
which site you take, the quiz onthat too. There's some give you
a scale, right? It's just like,yes, we put you in introverted,
but you're only like 60%introverted, as opposed to 90%
introverted. And you know it, itframes you like on the spectrum,
(08:24):
as opposed to like, everythingis black or white,
Indra Klavins (08:26):
100% 100% so, you know, I think that, you know, I
shared one of my examples that Ihave for my past. But, you know,
is there anything, whether it'sa good example or a bad example,
you know, Amanda's choice. Youknow, do you have a scenario of
another scenario? Excited, we'vebeen through a lot of these
(08:46):
different things in differentworkplaces that you want to
share it with everyone?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:50):
Yeah, I don't know if it's a good or a bad
scenario, positive or negative,but it's a scenario that comes
to mind. So I worked at acompany that asked us to do the
DISC assessment, which is also acommon corporate one, right?
It's four quadrants. It's discs.The D is dominance, the i is
(09:13):
influence, the S is, I think,steadiness, and the C is
conscientiousness. I've gotclarity. I don't know they're
all I took I took it yesterday,so right. Anyway, you know, it
was a half day workshop. We tookthe quiz before the workshop,
and we use the workshop to talkabout our results and have have
(09:35):
the discussion that's actuallyvaluable. And one person on the
team got a result that we wereall surprised by, including
herself.
Indra Klavins (09:45):
Okay, okay,
Amanda Jane Lee (09:47):
she read the results and was like, I don't
think this is right. I want tosay that the test put her in
steadiness, which is, you know,like the even temper. Her the
patient, the accommodating, thedemocratic. And she was
definitely more the oppositeend, which is dominance, right?
(10:11):
So, you know, direct and resultsoriented and firm. And this
comes to mind because, I thinkit highlighted one of the
potential flaws of these selfassessments, right? Like, it's a
self assessment, so maybe shejust wasn't that self aware, or
(10:34):
maybe she was just in a sharing,collaborative mood when she took
the test, like, who knows? Andlike, there are many reasons the
test results were the way theywere. And I think it's just
going back to your, yourstatement of it shouldn't be
used to identify you. It's, it'sjust a tool to start
(10:58):
conversation
Indra Klavins (10:59):
100% and you know, I've been in in
conversations or organizationswhere, and we alluded to it a
little bit earlier, like, wherethese things get weaponized,
it's like, oh, but you're that,like, you don't get to do this
because you were categorized asa that, whoa. Like, again. Back
to that, that, that basketballanalogy. Maybe if I am, you
(11:22):
know, three foot two, I'm notthe one who you should be
putting on your basketball team.But, you know, there's, there's
a lot of gray in the world.Usually things aren't that
abundantly clear.
Amanda Jane Lee (11:33):
Right, right?
Indra Klavins (11:35):
And there might be reasons that this might
belong into that, or youshouldn't automatically exclude
things. Or, you know, I thinkthat when we're talking about
this as a potential topic, youwere talking about teams that
use this as a vetting criteriafor hiring decisions or
promotion decisions for thatmatter, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (11:55):
And again, like it's a tool, it shouldn't be,
you know, I think that adirector of whatever needs to be
needs to have an INTJpersonality type, and if you
don't fit that box, sorry, likeyou don't have the
qualifications, it shouldn't beas rigid as that,
Indra Klavins (12:16):
right? And, you know, and I love a good theme.
So today, I'm using my astrologymug that a dear friend of mine
gave me. But, you know, I thinkof it the same way that I think
of the way that I react to myhoroscope or tarot cards, like
it's a as much as what the toolis giving me, it's my reaction
to the results that's sometimeslike, if I'm working with myself
(12:39):
like, you know, we can, we'll gointo how working with teams,
these are useful, but, like,working with myself is so much
fun. Like, that's, that's wherethe juice is. Like, how did I
feel about that? Ooh, like, youknow, hmm. Like, is that true?
Is that not true? Why might thathave come up, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (12:56):
right? And I think, you know, we talk a lot
about self reflection, right?Sitting with yourself and and
really thinking about who youare, how you are, how you feel,
and this is just another toolfor self reflection and
understanding how you like tocommunicate or be communicated
(13:17):
with. Right is a really helpfuldetail to have about yourself
and to be able to put yourselfin one of these frameworks and
talk about it with the peopleyou you interact with, the
people you work with, I thinkallows better collaboration, and
(13:39):
it allows a better understandingof you, and you know, the way
you work with others, and viceversa, right? Hearing other
people's DISC personality typesallowed me to understand them
better and how to better workwith them. Yeah, no, I think
(13:59):
that there's,
Indra Klavins (14:01):
I love what you hit on there, like I love, I
love any tool or resource orwhatever that gives me language
for something that i iinherently understand but may
not be able to convey to others.And this is just another one of
those tools that allows us to dothat, and, you know, one of the
(14:23):
other ways. So my deepestexperience, you know, I
mentioned it earlier, isStrengths Finder. You know, I
spent seven years at TDAmeritrade, so I learned
StrengthsFinder there, and I'veapplied it in other places too,
but where it's been useful istaking the results. And each of
these frameworks, like disc hasits four Strengths Finder has
(14:44):
its I think it's got fivedifferent master categories that
these strengths land in, rightand taking a look at an entire
team, having everybody in theteam take that assessment, and
then mapping the results on aspreadsheet and see like, Are
you over constant? And I'll usethe language that's in Strengths
Finder. Are you overconcentrated in strategic
thinking, relationship,building, influencing,
(15:07):
executing, you know, oh, there'sonly four there too. They've got
four. But are they? Are you overindexed somewhere or under
indexed somewhere? And that'llexplain so much. You're like,
oh, you know, we are, you know,I've been part of teams where we
had little to no influencing,and we were wondering why we
couldn't get the rest of thecompany to understand our our
(15:30):
objectives and why we want to dosomething. Because we had no
influence. We had, like, it wasone of our weaker strengths. And
like, what we did then was to,you know, when we were
interviewing people for to roundout the team, not only were we
looking for those practicalskills of, can they do the job?
In this case, it was a designteam. Can they do the things
that are necessary for platformX, Y or Z, but do they have a
(15:53):
little bit of like, and wedidn't have them take the
assessment, but you get a sensefor certain things, like, did
they have a little bit of woothere? You know, do they have
somebody who has that that andWoo is a Strengths Finder
category. It's probably one ofmy favorite ones to say woo but,
and I have no but do can we findsomebody with some woo that can
(16:14):
help us out and round out thatskill set and round out our
team?
Amanda Jane Lee (16:18):
Yeah, I like what you touched upon there
about rounding out a team,right? I, I find this to be most
interesting, most helpful whenit comes to cross functional
teams. So not just a team ofprogram managers or not just a
team of engineers, but the crossfunctional team of somewhat of
(16:43):
people in, you know, inengineering, people in program
management, people on themarketing side, people on the
sales side, and just rallyingaround this, this common
language, this framework, andusing it To better understand
each other and each other'smotivations,
Indra Klavins (17:03):
yeah, and as you're talking, it also makes me
think that it gives it wouldgive me the language. It does
give me the language. When I'mtrying to explain to my team,
why do we care about how thesales team feels? Right, right?
It's like, hey, you know, theseare all the skills that are
necessary. Like they're low insome of the things are really
strong at but they're high insome of the things, like I said,
(17:25):
woo. I'm sure that most salespeople have got a little bit of
woo in them, right? You know, toto be able to to sell that
thing, and just understandingthat it's we want to be well
rounded as a as an organization,and some of our client base will
be also towards some of thosethings too. And wouldn't it be
nice if they were represented inthe room? In these business
discussions, I get designerslike that, all that kind of
(17:47):
stuff. But yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (17:50):
right. And I think, you know, it touches on
the empathy piece, right? It'slike, once you understand that
there's this, there are othercategories other than your own.
And truly understanding, youknow, how these people think,
how these people operate, howthese people like to
communicate. I think it justleads to better collaboration
(18:15):
across the board,
Indra Klavins (18:17):
right? And you know, the way that these the
frameworks lay things out. Theydon't the best ones don't call
one attribute better or worsethan the others. They're just
different. Yeah, they're justdifferent. And so it, it, it
(18:37):
gets a little bit of the it getsa little bit of the, oh gosh, I
can't think of a better phrase.It's a little bit of the pissing
match, like we're better thanthey are. They're better than we
like, we're just different.We're just different, not
better, not worse different.
Amanda Jane Lee (18:53):
Yeah, that. That reminds me of, you know, we
were talking about one of thesetests. It's called True Colors.
And I forget the actual categorythat this person was in, but the
conversation went somethinglike, I'm primarily a blue,
which means, you know, I valuerelationships and collaboration,
(19:16):
and I'm really low on gold,which, which which means, you
know, gold values structure andorganization and goals, and
that's probably a bad thing,right? And, and it's like, no,
I'm sure you can value goals andresponsibilities and all of
(19:40):
those things that make a goldpersonality a gold but those
just aren't the traits that younaturally are inclined to.
Indra Klavins (19:50):
Right? And you know, the more I work with
humans, the more I realize,Isn't it lovely that there's
someone who is the opposite ofme I may. I may they may not
ever be my best friend. Let's beclear. I might need to take them
in small doses, but I am sograteful. I'm going to go back
to sales teams. Sales teams,they have so much energy to talk
(20:13):
to people that I don't I can'tpeople as much as sales people
do, but I also know that mypaycheck doesn't come through if
they don't sell and if my teamsdon't deliver the thing that
they sell. So both of us arenecessary, you know, but I value
them. I value them, even if Idon't want to spend tons of time
(20:34):
with some of them.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:35):
Yeah, when you said that, what came to my mind
was, isn't it nice that thereare people who are really good
at maths.
Indra Klavins (20:43):
I love a good finance team too. Oh, my
goodness, I love a good lawyer.I mean, there's, there's certain
things that people compliance.People, they it's you. Some
people will have, like, anallergic reaction, as I'm
saying, some of these, thesefunctions, right? But I'm like,
No, I love them. I love them. Ilove that. They love to do the
thing that they do. And, youknow, I love the fact that
(21:05):
that's not my job,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:07):
right? I love the fact I love the fact that
they're that they do what theydo, and they love to do what
they do, and they're good atdoing what they do, because I'm
not those things
Indra Klavins (21:19):
100% 100% so I think that, you know, you said
empathy, I think that the otherpiece is curiosity, to me, that
goes hand in hand with empathy,like entering into, entering
into a conversation around theseassessments, with curiosity and
but I think that what we haven'ttouched on is, you know, some of
These tests and taking thesetests are mandatory, and
(21:42):
sometimes they come from ourpeople leader, which has a
certain weight to it. You know,our people manager, the leader
of our department. Sometimesthey come from human resources
or the people team that comeswith a different kind of weight,
right? And it can feel, it canfeel a little bit daunting. It
can feel like they're trying tostick you into a into a little
(22:03):
cubby hole, because I don't. Inmost cases, I haven't found that
that's the case. Like in mostscenarios, I have found that
that's the case because I, in myexperience, HR brings these
assess rolls these assessmentsout as a tool to help people
managers understand their peoplebetter, like that is generally
(22:25):
their motivation around thesethings. And again, that common
language, that common referencepoint, so the whole organization
is using a shared vocabularyaround things. But you know, it
can be a little bit scary, andit can be really frustrating
when you don't get your resultsthat you wanted. So,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:41):
yeah, yeah. And I think that takeaway there is
don't attach yourself tooclosely to your results,
because, like the example Ishared, maybe you were just
clicking the wrong buttons, oryou were just having a different
kind of day, or, you know, justthinking about the the DISC
(23:03):
assessment in particular, um,you know, dominance is a loaded
word, but that's one of thecategories, right? And, yeah,
and so, like, it's been a whilesince I've taken it, but I'm
sure the the statements on thequiz that identify with that
personality type read somethinglike, I have a strong
(23:27):
personality, and like wordsmatter, like that is a strong
statement. And like for you toidentify with that that that
might not feel good orcomfortable, even though that it
actually is you.
Indra Klavins (23:41):
So agreed, like I took a, I took a DISC assessment
yesterday, as I mentionedearlier, just to, just to you,
see what that one was like,right? See what the experience
is like. And it reminded me ofthe advice that I give to people
when they start to take thestrengths finder. The Strengths
Finder, I think it takes about15 minutes to complete. It's one
of the longer ones to complete,the questions feel redundant,
(24:06):
but I think that's part of thedesign of it. But like taking
the test, my advice everyone is,just plow through it. Don't
think, don't think too hard,don't judge too hard. Just plow
through it. It'll be what it'llbe, and it's going to be fine
because it is a Cosmo quiz. Itdoes not define you, you know.
And whatever comes back is anopportunity for me to look at
(24:26):
and, you know, like, if theywant to call me, there's this,
there's an assessment thatcalled me an avant garde. And
I've got very strong feelingsaround the words avant garde,
but I'm like avant garde, like,I don't identify myself as that,
like I think of art and fashionand flim, like they again,
anyway, I've digressed. Don't,don't attach yourself. Take that
avant garde thing. Okay, so theysaid, I'm an avant garde fine
(24:49):
like that. Doesn't define me. Idefine me, you know. And if it
is something that is being usedin a way that's. Disadvantaging
at you. That's your opportunityto talk to your people manager,
talk to your mentor, talk toyour partner in HR, or your
people team, differentorganizations. Call them
(25:09):
different things and say, Hey,this is my experience of what's
going on. Can I get a new oneand maybe take a new assessment,
or is there a differentassessment that would help me
better understand because a toolis not serving me?
Amanda Jane Lee (25:22):
Yeah, totally. And we mentioned this before,
but I think it's important tocall out that it's the
discussion that this sparks,that's the value, right? Like
Indra Klavins (25:34):
100%
Amanda Jane Lee (25:35):
just coming to the table and being like, I'm
primarily, you know, a dominanttype, or I'm an INTJ, and then
just leaving it at that. That'snot,
Indra Klavins (25:45):
what does that mean?
Amanda Jane Lee (25:48):
Helpful? I think you know, just leading
with curiosity, talking aboutit. And I'm sure all you know, I
keep on using INTJ becausethat's the type that I am. And
those are, those are the lettersthat flow like roll off the
tongue for me, yeah. But thereare others who are in T, J's,
and they're different from me.Like, you know, your your score,
(26:11):
on each of the the categoriescan be different. And so I think
it's just important tounderstand that it, it's just a
framework. It's not, you know,it's not a an assignment of what
kind of person you are. It'snot, not a value, no, it's not a
value. It's just something tospark conversation and to get to
(26:34):
know each other better,
Indra Klavins (26:35):
yeah, and I like that little bit of advice that
you had there, like embedded inthere, when someone says, and
I'm an INTJ and just, like,leaves, like, what does that?
Tell me more about that. Tell memore about that, because they
clearly wear that as anidentity. You know, I might
choose not to use my INTJ as anidentity, right? Like, I and E
depending on the day, like Isaid, but like, I don't use that
(26:58):
as my identity. They do. Whatdoes that mean to you? Like, how
does that how does that changehow you work? What does that
mean and how I should work withyou? What does that mean when it
comes to the things that you'rereally good at? You know, just
invite create it as a dooropening, and even if they just
put the door up with a doorlabel, you know, use it. Use it
(27:19):
as a vehicle to open up thatdoor and get to know them a
little bit better,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:23):
right? If they're an eye you know, that
means they're introverted. Whatdoes that mean? Does that mean,
you know, don't talk to me atthe team dinner, like, what does
that mean in terms to you, how Iwork with you, how I communicate
with you, what how you feelabout yourself?
Indra Klavins (27:41):
Yeah, yeah. I think we, we will someday have a
topic of introverts, extrovertsand ambiverts, because that's a
whole another type of thosepersonality types. But, yeah,
what does that mean? But, butthrough that work, through Susan
Cain's work, it is like, it islike, what does that mean to
you? Is really important. How,how do you like to how do you
(28:02):
like to recharge? How do youlike to work? You know, should I
be stopping by your desk everyfive seconds? Right? Introverts,
not so much. Extroverts, theywould love that, you know,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:12):
right? Love the water cooler chat.
Indra Klavins (28:15):
Love it. Any other thoughts or anything else
that you want to add, I knowthat we like I said, we both
love and hate. I've mixedemotions around self
assessments, but find themoverall, rather valuable
anything else you want to add toshare with everyone before we
say goodbye to everyone for today,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:33):
not really. Yeah, I too find them valuable
if they're used the way they'reintended to be used just as a
tool again, and I just thinkthey're fun.
Indra Klavins (28:44):
They can be fun. Yes, they're fun. They help me
unlock my inner child. Of like,again, I feel like I'm sitting
in a dorm room fillingoutup myCosmo quiz. What's it gonna be?
Amanda Jane Lee (28:55):
Right? I yeah, I'm kind of inspired to go on
Buzzfeed right now and take abunch of silly quizzes.
Indra Klavins (29:02):
I like it. I like it. Let's do it anyway. Thank
you, Amanda, for being with us,for being with us, being with me
today and exploring the selfassessments. I'm going to figure
out how to do my closings alittle more cleanly in the
future, but I hope that everyonewho's listening joins us next
time. For another topic, for themessy middle, Bye, everyone.
Unknown (29:21):
Bye, you.
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