April 30, 2025 • 25 mins
What happens when life outside the office becomes impossible to ignore? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, we explore what it means to be human at work, particularly during personal, local, or global crises.
From the ongoing effects of the pandemic to sudden personal emergencies, Indra and Amanda explore how leaders and employees alike can demonstrate empathy, set realistic expectations, and foster cultures that prioritize people over productivity.
This is a conversation about acknowledging reality, embracing flexibility, and navigating that murky space between personal and professional life without losing sight of our humanity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra, and I'm Amanda,
and we'd like to welcome you tothe messy middle matters. Hey,
Amanda, how are you today? I'mgood. How are you Indra? I'm
good. I'm good. Um, today is atopic that's near and dear to I
think both of our hearts likebecause, you know, what's so
(00:29):
interesting about the worldthese days is, especially the
work world, there's this,there's this, um, mandate,
almost, to compartmentalize yourlife. And sometimes what that
does, it doesn't allow you toacknowledge that you're human
beings first, and you know,like, and workers second, and so
like, that's one of thechallenges that I think I face
in the workplace, and I face asa, as a, as an employee, and
(00:52):
also as a people manager. It'sjust really, it can be a really,
really challenging thing for tonavigate. And shout out to my
friend Jay, who suggested thistopic for us for today.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, same, near and dear to our
hearts. I mean, we bothconstantly acknowledge that we
are human beings. We are what doyou say? We are not automatons?
Indra Klavins (01:16):
We are not automatons, yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:17):
yeah, we are not automatons. And it's
especially difficult to navigatewhen there's just crap going on
in someone's personal life,
Indra Klavins (01:28):
Personal life. And sometimes we're going to
talk about that when it's goingdown with one person, and then
when it's going down foreveryone all at the same time,
very, very, very different,different scenario. But, you
know, finding, how do youbalance your life of obligations
and your work obligations andand and stay sane at the same
(01:50):
time? I mean, I think that, youknow, that's really an art form.
That's really an art form and ahard thing for for everyone to
navigate. So should we startwith personal, or should we
start with the the ones that arehitting all of us? Because I
think that we can go, we haveboth topics to cover or sub
topics.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:08):
Yeah, we, um, we can start with personal,
because I saw it on top of mind.I mean that you know that the
last few years for me have notbeen the best personally, one of
one of, one of the personalthings that has happened was I
lost my dad in 2019 and this wasa, this was, I think, a week
(02:32):
into starting a new job, and so,like, I didn't know anybody at
the company, like my managerbarely knew my name. And you
know, I showed up for that firstweek, like, excited, ready to
go, setting up my laptop,meeting the team. And then the
next week, I had to be gone. Andyou know, I reached out to my
(02:57):
manager, I explained thesituation. I was like, hey, it's
also cool that, like, I'm atransparent person. If you could
just do me a favor and just leteverybody know that this is
what's happening. I didn't justghost everyone after meeting
them, he was just, like, ofcourse, like anything you need
take all the time, like, herecognized me as a human being.
And like, even that small thingof just, like, don't even worry
(03:20):
about work right now, like just,just go handle your business.
And you know, just that littlegesture is nice. It's just a
human thing to do. And a fewweeks later, after, you know, I
got back to Denver, the head ofthe department so my skip level,
my grand boss was in town for sohe was in the New York office.
(03:46):
He was in town in Denver formeetings and whatever, and he
stopped by my desk. I didn'thave a relationship with this
man, like we just knew eachother's names, and he made it a
point to stop by my desk,introduce himself and offer his
condolences,
Indra Klavins (04:04):
wow,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:05):
yeah, and like, I will never forget him,
Indra Klavins (04:07):
yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:09):
just like that piece of humanity, yeah, just
helped me through that difficulttime at work.
Indra Klavins (04:17):
Yeah. What is it? It's making me think of the
quote it's attributed to MayaAngelou, and I'm not gonna get
it exactly right. People won'tremember the things that you
said. They won't remember thethings that you did. They will
remember what how you made themfeel, and you will forever. I
mean, it's the thing that hedid, but it's how he felt about
it.
Amanda Jane Lee (04:36):
Oh, totally. And, you know, I think just the
the mere recognition that, yeah,yeah, we're Work is work. Work
is important, but it's not themost important thing, like, how
are you?
Unknown (04:54):
And that's not as common, as we would like for it
to. Be across all organizationsand all companies. You know,
it's,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:04):
It sounds so obvious, but it's not as you're
right? It's not as common as youwould hope it is,
Indra Klavins (05:11):
yeah, like it's, you know, I think I'm gonna wind
up bouncing back and forth, butit's making me think of the
pandemic a little bit likebecause there we saw… This was
happening. This collectiveexperience was happening to
everyone, not on your team, notin your company, not in your
state, not in your country, thewhole darn globe. It was
(05:31):
happening to everyone, all atonce, and none of us were even
the most prepared. Person wasnot prepared for this, right?
You got to see how everyonereacted to this in mass and at
scale. And you know, you got tosee which are the companies that
(05:51):
are more attuned to people'slike understanding that people
are humans and being so hyperfocused on your bottom line or
like, but we have a meetingtoday,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:06):
right? But we have a meeting today, and it's
really important.
Indra Klavins (06:11):
It's really important like, and I was, I'll
say I was at Verizon at thetime, and you can look it up on
my LinkedIn, it's not a statesecret, right? And I will say
like I was one of the lastpeople who showed up in the
office on that last day beforewe before New York City went in
on lockdown. And to me, that wasjust a demonstration of what the
(06:33):
company was like in response tothat. Because, you know, if you
think about Verizon, Verizon wasan interest, an extremely
interesting place to be at theat the top of the pandemic,
because it was facing everythingthat everyone else was facing.
And at the same time, the entirebusiness model needed to totally
(06:55):
tilt. I'm going to say tilt. Iwon't say business model. Maybe
it's too strong a word, buteverything the operations or
what we're doing on a dailybasis, needed to shift to the
way the world was shifting from,you know, prioritizing, you
know, let's say, and I don'tknow exactly the priorities.
That wasn't my role, but likeyou can imagine, I was just
imagining, like, prioritization,making sure that, you know, the
(07:18):
cable running to the, you know,the largest pieces of
infrastructure in our in ournation, specifically, I'm
thinking of office buildings,was that that traffic was
prioritized, right, you know,and that that makes sense,
because things need to run andso on and so forth. But now it's
shifted to everyone's houses,which was totally distributed
(07:39):
across everything, and, youknow, focusing in on making sure
that people in low access areasactually had access to, you
know, wireless, or, like I said,cable Fios is a product of
horizons, all these differentthings. And like, trying to
navigate all of this complexityat the same time was really,
(08:01):
really challenging. I will saythat that the company did a
really great job, but there arecompanies out there that didn't
do such a great job, like Ihave, you know, friends and
family that were in situationsthat were being forced to go
into offices when no one wasthere, because, and this is
maybe not the absolute tippy topof the pandemic, but you know,
as things went on, but beforevaccines were available, you
(08:23):
know, they were forced to gointo offices for what reason?
Not quite sure. You know, it wasreally, you know, it was
reminding me, like in thedot-com era, it was like
counting eyeballs was a metricof success for the early dot-com
companies. Like, were you justcounting eyeballs in the office
just to prove the fact thatyou're using the real estate,
because that's a metric youdecided you're gonna hit. I
(08:45):
don't know. Like, it
Amanda Jane Lee (08:46):
right, it's the butt-in-seat metric, yeah. Like,
who's at their desk?
Indra Klavins (08:51):
It's just so, it was so, like, like, what do you
care about? Like, this, they'resitting in front of a computer
all day long, but they, and halfof your staff it's okay for them
to be at home, and half of yourstaff that does the exact same
job has to go into the officelike I don't understand. And
it's yeah. Anyway, I've rambleda little bit, but that was
Amanda Jane Lee (09:12):
Yeah. I mean, it's navigating the complexity
specifically about the pandemic,right? Like navigating the
complexity that the entireworld, yeah, had to navigate,
yeah, plus navigating thecomplexity of, you know, working
at Verizon of, oh, this isactually critical, critical
(09:33):
structure, yeah, criticalinfrastructure. And it's just
like, well, you can't, you can'tjust be like, Well, I'm not
going to show up to work today?No, but you also have to
acknowledge that there is awhole world outside of the
Verizon virtual office.
Indra Klavins (09:49):
Yes, 100% and like I said, I think we struck
the beautiful ballads, becauseif people didn't have
connection, they couldn't zoomtheir loved ones and make sure.
They were okay and check onthem, and hospitals wouldn't get
the things that they need. Like,there's a lot of stuff like,
it's, it's, but at the same timeas individual people, you know,
(10:10):
I would, I think, like I said,what I like my sign up with,
"stay safe, stay sane and begentle with yourselves". I think
for every single zoom call, itwas whether it was like, what
two people that were on thecall, or if it was the entire
team, where it was like 500plus, right? You know, like,
stay safe. Stay safe.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:28):
Do you remember, like, the height of
the pandemic, where everyone wasjust, like, almost pretending
like everything was fine atwork? But
Indra Klavins (10:39):
I think that was, that was a collective denial,
like it was, like, it was, itwas like, a sure, this is
normal, right? But, you know,and I think that I will say it
like, right now in in the world,the world is going through a lot
Amanda Jane Lee (10:51):
Yeah, I was gonna say a lot of it varies
of different changes, you know,like, over the recent years, and
I think that the one thing thatmade me feel okay during the
pandemic. And I think isimportant for any leader,
regardless of what challengesare going on, whether it's a
hurricane or, you know,something else that's going on,
is to acknowledge that it'shappening. When you acknowledge
(11:14):
it, you name it, and you itgives everyone. They're like,
Oh, okay. They know that this ishard. Okay, cool. We will not
discuss it at all, but we willacknowledge that it's hard at
the very least, it's the bareminimum, right? Agreed, yeah.
And I think the best case iswhere you create the right kinds
of spaces for people to do alittle bit more than that very
(11:36):
just basic acknowledgement,right? And I don't know that can
take lots of different shapesand forms depending on the
organization scenario, depth ofyour relationship with that
person, you know?
based on the the context and thethe relationships that you have,
(11:57):
right? Just going back to thepersonal challenges there were,
there were co workers who, youknow, as they got to know me,
would would check in on me, justbe like, Hey, how are you doing?
Because a lot of things aren'tjust a one time event, right?
(12:19):
And I think it's easy to kind offorget that, because it's not
top of mind, yep, and as peoplegot to know me, they would check
in and be like, how are youdoing today? And just the
understanding that, like, notevery day is going to be a good
day. I mean, regardless ofwhat's going on in your personal
(12:39):
life, right? Like, even ifeverything is 100% like,
perfect, like, you're livingyour best life, you could wake
up one morning and just be like,today's not a good day.
Indra Klavins (12:50):
Yeah, I think life's lifeiness and grief comes
in waves and in unexpectedthings and whatever. You know, I
think that that's where one ofthe tools that I've seen, I've
seen it pre pandemic, but, youknow, really, it really took
hold at the during the pandemic,like, at the beginning of a
meeting, just doing a roundrobin, check in to everyone.
(13:11):
Like, thumbs up, thumbs to theside, thumbs down, right. Like,
that's a very basic like, howare you today? So I know how to
engage with you, you know, like,I know I'm like, oh, today's not
the day. I'm gonna push Amanda'sbuttons. She didn't sleep last
night. Cool, cool. You know, shedid. She slept fine last night,
by the way, folks. But you know,just as, just as one of the
basic examples of when I when Itell people, like, Hey, folks, I
(13:33):
didn't sleep well last night,like, just no button pushing
today. Like, you can give me thechallenges, but no button
pushing.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:39):
Yeah, that actually just reminded me of, I
think this was when we workedtogether. Our team meetings were
like, red, yellow, green. Howare you feeling today? And
instead of, we made it a littlefun, right? We were like, what?
We pulled up the the Pantonecolor. So
Indra Klavins (13:52):
I love, and that's, you know, I think that
that's, I think, making things alittle bit lighter and a little
bit not, not to not be, not notin a dismissive way. You want to
acknowledge that the life'slifeiness, but bringing in a
little bit of levity and makingit, you know, one of my
favorite, my one of my favoritequotes is from Steel Magnolias.
(14:14):
"Laughter through tears is myfavorite emotion", right? You
know, bringing that kind of, youknow, like, Yeah, I know it's
really tough, but like, can wedo just one little thing to just
make it not hurt quite so much?Pantone colors can be the way to
do it, or red, amber, green, orlike, you know, like, whatever,
like, I'm feeling, what kind ofanimal am I today? I don't know,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:36):
right?bJust going back to the acknowledging
that people are human,
Indra Klavins (14:41):
very much. So, very much. So there's, there's,
I don't think that there's, Idon't think there's enough of
that always. I mean, you don'twant to over lean in on that,
because we're not, we're not. Idon't care what anybody says,
unless there's some sort ofother, unless a true
relationship has been forgedoutside of the. Workplace, we're
not family, we're not trainedtherapists, we're not a lot of
(15:04):
things, but, but we are humanbeings who are in community,
whether we realize it or not,with our work colleagues, like
any time that more than,actually, maybe more than one
person gets together, right?It's a version of community. So,
yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:21):
yeah. So, you know, we talked about just
baseline, acknowledging thatwe're all humans, right. Have
you like do other examples cometo mind of tactics that people
can use to just tangible,actionable things that people
tools people can use to navigatethese kinds of scenarios.
Indra Klavins (15:46):
Yeah, I think you actually highlighted one of them
at the beginning. You know? Ithink it is about finding, like,
if you are the person who'shaving a tough day, finding that
one person that you can say to,hey, BT, Dubs, I'm having a
tough day, you know, and just sothat they know, so that you know
if a and you don't need to be,because sometimes you won't want
(16:10):
to disclose what's going on,right, for one reason or
another, I'd say, you know, justfind that one person you can
trust, so that they can Be youreyes, ears and be part of your
when I
Amanda Jane Lee (16:24):
say communication,
Indra Klavins (16:25):
yeah, because, like, what will happen is, like,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:25):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and I love
you know, it showed up from it.This has showed up for me more
when I've been a people manager,where somebody would say
something like, and then, youknow, another team member weave
any Oh, such and such as justnot doing like, hey, hey, hey,
they've got something going on.Like, oh, okay, I didn't know.
(16:45):
Yeah, yeah. Like, they're notbeing their typical selves
because they've got somethinggoing on, I've got, I've got,
and then then it flips theconversation. Like, oh my gosh.
How can I have like, no, no, Igot it covered. They've got it
covered. You know, we're incommunication. Just, you know,
just have a little patience. Ithink that that, to me, is one
(17:06):
of the as a person, tell thatone person that you trust so
they can help to protect you andkeep those raw parts of
yourself, you know, clear, I'dsay. But the other piece, which
goes hand in hand, is, don'tkeep it to yourself. Like, don't
keep it to yourself. Find thatperson because, you know, giving
it language always helps, butyou know, if you keep it to
(17:27):
yourself, no one will know, andthen that can backfire on you in
some other sort of way, in waysthat you couldn't have even
imagined, right which could, inthe worst case scenarios, lead
to a severing of thatrelationship. And nobody needs
that. So, you know, find theright way to find that right
person, even in the toughestorganization, I You can usually
(17:48):
find that person. That would bemy number one piece of advice as
a as a person, as an employee ofan organization or a member of a
team.
the way you articulated thatbecause as you were telling that
story, I thought of all thetimes where I knew that someone,
even not as a people manager, Ijust knew because of the
(18:11):
relationships I had with peopleat work, I knew that someone was
having a bad day, or there wassomething going on in someone's
life. And I've heard the like,you know, the chatter sometimes
after a meeting of just, like,what was this person thinking?
Like, when, when they said this,and it's just like, well, like,
just, so, you know, they're,it's not typical. They're in the
(18:33):
mug, yeah, yeah. It's fine.Like, just let that roll. It's
fine, yeah.
Indra Klavins (18:41):
And it's another one that came in and it left,
but yeah, I think that, likethat, to me, is number one, do
you have anything that comes tomind while I'm trying to
remember what, what popped inand popped
Amanda Jane Lee (18:51):
out? I think your second point was, what I
wanted to Yeah, was the was theadvice that I would give to
people, right? You don't have tobe an open book. Like, I just
happen to be one of thosepeople, right? Like, I'm an open
book. I whatever you want toknow about my personal life,
that's fine. I'll let you knowall the details of the crap
(19:14):
that's going on in my life. Butyeah, to as a person who's going
through a hard time, whetherthat's personally or, like,
pandemic related, or whatever itis, right? Like a hurricane is
coming your way, and yeah, andyou need to just take the day
off to prepare, I think, justletting people know that so that
(19:40):
you give them the permission togive you permission to take care
of your stuff once, once youacknowledge it, once you you let
someone know that this is what'shappening.
Indra Klavins (19:54):
And you led me right into the thing. As I was
writing, I'm like, oh, that'sthe thing I was thinking. I
think that so now, from the.People manager perspective, you
know, model the behaviors youwant to see, right? And it's
which, for me, is a lot moreexplicit than I would if I
wasn't necessarily a peoplemanager or more senior member of
the team, right? But it's like,Hey, I will, I'll tell everyone.
(20:15):
I'm like, Hey, I'm going throughthis today so that it gives
permission, like it givesimplicit permission. And then
the other thing, which is thecompanion, if you are in any
sort of leadership position,whether it's literally people
manager, or you're more senioror a more senior person in that
room, give people permission tobe humans explicitly. Say, Hey,
(20:35):
you know, I know that thehelicopter crashed in the
Hudson. That's our recent eventthat, you know, that was on the
national news right. Helicoptercrashed in the Hudson, and our
workplace is three blocks awayfrom there. I know you're all
distracted. You know, do yourbest to try and stay focused.
It's not impacting any of us.I've checked to make sure
(20:56):
there's no nobody knows thepeople that were involved in
that. But I also acknowledgethat, you know, this is a very
human experience, and ithappened very close to us. So,
like, I think that, you know,giving people that permission
and giving them the knowledge toactually, or giving that, giving
them the the method, or to to behumans, I think, is really
important when you have aposition of, I'm going to call
(21:17):
it power, because it is power.But, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:19):
yeah, yeah. You know, what came to mind for me
was, you know, as a peoplemanager, you know, if, if my dog
needed to go to the vet, I'mjust, like, I gotta go. Like,
she's not well, like, I gotta goand just modeling that behavior,
right? Just, you know, justdropping a note in the team
(21:41):
Slack channel, like, Hey, I'mgonna be offline for a few
hours, sorry. Like, I, you know,can someone cover this meeting
for me? I've, I've got somethings to take care of, and you
know that that gives people justmodeling that behavior, that
that makes it okay for people todo the same, right if something
comes up, if they need to pickup their sick kid from work,
(22:03):
from school, like, if they ifsomething just comes up, you you
give people, I keep on using theword permission, but it's like,
you don't permission, it'spermission, right? But you give
people the permission to belike, oh yeah, this, this thing
in my life, is more importantthan this meeting. Like, I've
(22:23):
got to go and like, I'm justgoing to tell you that I'm going
to go like, I'm not going to askyou. Like, hey, you know, my kid
needs to be picked up because ofwhatever. And like, can I go?
Like, No, I'm just going to goand like, I'm telling I'm
informing you.
I'm laughing because I'mthinking of a story. It was, it
was, it was many, many, manymoons ago, so over 15 years ago,
(22:48):
and trigger warning, so foreverybody. So I 15 years ago, I
wound up having cancer, kidneycancer, and as as we after it
was I identified, and before Iwas having surgery to have it
removed. You know, there was alitany of tests, which I won't
(23:09):
go into, but, you know, Iremember one day I just went
into or I emailed, I emailed HR,and I said, Hey, I'm taking this
date off. And they came back tome. They're like, you know,
usually the practices that youactually ask for the day off. I
said, I understand what thepractice is usually, but I'm
(23:32):
taking the day off. This is aday that they can schedule me. I
think in every other scenario, Itotally understand that. But
right now, for this moment oftime, I am taking the first
things that I can get when I canget them right, and I, you know,
I was, this is much earlier inmy career, and I unders, I
inherently understood the risksof breaking protocol and how
(23:55):
that could be. You know that thebacklash or the repercussions
that could come from that, butyou know, sometimes there are
things that matter more. Thereare things that matter more than
my paycheck. And I understandthat that's comes from a
tremendous place of privilegelike and I thank my lucky stars
every single day for theadvantages that I do have, you
(24:17):
know, and I don't take them forgranted. So I know that this is
not something that everybody cando. But you know, there are,
everyone will have theirscenario where it's like, I
don't care what the rules are.There are things that matter
more. I think that, you know,actually, I forgot when we were
talking about, when we wereidentifying this topic, I
brought up one of my favoritecore values from my time when I
(24:38):
was at TD Ameritrade, was peoplematter. And whenever somebody
would say, Hey, I can't come inbecause XYZ, I'm like, people
matter priorities. We'll see youtomorrow. No problem, right? But
sometimes you just need to dothat for yourself and say, Hey,
consequences be damned. My childmatters more. My pet matters
more. My spouse matters more. Imatter more, right? I
(24:59):
matter. Matter more, so I'm taking a mental
health day today. I matter more.I'm
Indra Klavins (25:04):
going to break I recognize this. I will be a
mess, and I will go beyondwhatever I can do. You know,
like I will, I will cause otherpeople to be miserable. I
understand this is zero notice,and I understand there will be
repercussions. I need to have amental health day today and a
conversation reprimand metomorrow.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:23):
Yeah, I think, I think that core value of
people matter sums up thisadvice. We'll call it of this
episode, right?
Unknown (25:34):
People matter. People matter. And I think that's a
lovely place for us to to endthings.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Indra Klavins (25:40):
Yeah. Amanda, thank you so much as always for
being my partner in all of thisin the messy middle as we
navigate yet another topic. AndI hope that everyone joins us
next time when we when weexplore something else. Bye,
everyone. Thanks.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:54):
Bye.
I'm Indra, and I'm Amanda,
and we'd like to welcome you tothe messy middle matters. Hey,
Amanda, how are you today? I'mgood. How are you Indra? I'm
good. I'm good. Um, today is atopic that's near and dear to I
think both of our hearts likebecause, you know, what's so
(00:29):
interesting about the worldthese days is, especially the
work world, there's this,there's this, um, mandate,
almost, to compartmentalize yourlife. And sometimes what that
does, it doesn't allow you toacknowledge that you're human
beings first, and you know,like, and workers second, and so
like, that's one of thechallenges that I think I face
in the workplace, and I face asa, as a, as an employee, and
(00:52):
also as a people manager. It'sjust really, it can be a really,
really challenging thing for tonavigate. And shout out to my
friend Jay, who suggested thistopic for us for today.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, same, near and dear to our
hearts. I mean, we bothconstantly acknowledge that we
are human beings. We are what doyou say? We are not automatons?
Indra Klavins (01:16):
We are not automatons, yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:17):
yeah, we are not automatons. And it's
especially difficult to navigatewhen there's just crap going on
in someone's personal life,
Indra Klavins (01:28):
Personal life. And sometimes we're going to
talk about that when it's goingdown with one person, and then
when it's going down foreveryone all at the same time,
very, very, very different,different scenario. But, you
know, finding, how do youbalance your life of obligations
and your work obligations andand and stay sane at the same
(01:50):
time? I mean, I think that, youknow, that's really an art form.
That's really an art form and ahard thing for for everyone to
navigate. So should we startwith personal, or should we
start with the the ones that arehitting all of us? Because I
think that we can go, we haveboth topics to cover or sub
topics.
Amanda Jane Lee (02:08):
Yeah, we, um, we can start with personal,
because I saw it on top of mind.I mean that you know that the
last few years for me have notbeen the best personally, one of
one of, one of the personalthings that has happened was I
lost my dad in 2019 and this wasa, this was, I think, a week
(02:32):
into starting a new job, and so,like, I didn't know anybody at
the company, like my managerbarely knew my name. And you
know, I showed up for that firstweek, like, excited, ready to
go, setting up my laptop,meeting the team. And then the
next week, I had to be gone. Andyou know, I reached out to my
(02:57):
manager, I explained thesituation. I was like, hey, it's
also cool that, like, I'm atransparent person. If you could
just do me a favor and just leteverybody know that this is
what's happening. I didn't justghost everyone after meeting
them, he was just, like, ofcourse, like anything you need
take all the time, like, herecognized me as a human being.
And like, even that small thingof just, like, don't even worry
(03:20):
about work right now, like just,just go handle your business.
And you know, just that littlegesture is nice. It's just a
human thing to do. And a fewweeks later, after, you know, I
got back to Denver, the head ofthe department so my skip level,
my grand boss was in town for sohe was in the New York office.
(03:46):
He was in town in Denver formeetings and whatever, and he
stopped by my desk. I didn'thave a relationship with this
man, like we just knew eachother's names, and he made it a
point to stop by my desk,introduce himself and offer his
condolences,
Indra Klavins (04:04):
wow,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:05):
yeah, and like, I will never forget him,
Indra Klavins (04:07):
yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:09):
just like that piece of humanity, yeah, just
helped me through that difficulttime at work.
Indra Klavins (04:17):
Yeah. What is it? It's making me think of the
quote it's attributed to MayaAngelou, and I'm not gonna get
it exactly right. People won'tremember the things that you
said. They won't remember thethings that you did. They will
remember what how you made themfeel, and you will forever. I
mean, it's the thing that hedid, but it's how he felt about
it.
Amanda Jane Lee (04:36):
Oh, totally. And, you know, I think just the
the mere recognition that, yeah,yeah, we're Work is work. Work
is important, but it's not themost important thing, like, how
are you?
Unknown (04:54):
And that's not as common, as we would like for it
to. Be across all organizationsand all companies. You know,
it's,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:04):
It sounds so obvious, but it's not as you're
right? It's not as common as youwould hope it is,
Indra Klavins (05:11):
yeah, like it's, you know, I think I'm gonna wind
up bouncing back and forth, butit's making me think of the
pandemic a little bit likebecause there we saw… This was
happening. This collectiveexperience was happening to
everyone, not on your team, notin your company, not in your
state, not in your country, thewhole darn globe. It was
(05:31):
happening to everyone, all atonce, and none of us were even
the most prepared. Person wasnot prepared for this, right?
You got to see how everyonereacted to this in mass and at
scale. And you know, you got tosee which are the companies that
(05:51):
are more attuned to people'slike understanding that people
are humans and being so hyperfocused on your bottom line or
like, but we have a meetingtoday,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:06):
right? But we have a meeting today, and it's
really important.
Indra Klavins (06:11):
It's really important like, and I was, I'll
say I was at Verizon at thetime, and you can look it up on
my LinkedIn, it's not a statesecret, right? And I will say
like I was one of the lastpeople who showed up in the
office on that last day beforewe before New York City went in
on lockdown. And to me, that wasjust a demonstration of what the
(06:33):
company was like in response tothat. Because, you know, if you
think about Verizon, Verizon wasan interest, an extremely
interesting place to be at theat the top of the pandemic,
because it was facing everythingthat everyone else was facing.
And at the same time, the entirebusiness model needed to totally
(06:55):
tilt. I'm going to say tilt. Iwon't say business model. Maybe
it's too strong a word, buteverything the operations or
what we're doing on a dailybasis, needed to shift to the
way the world was shifting from,you know, prioritizing, you
know, let's say, and I don'tknow exactly the priorities.
That wasn't my role, but likeyou can imagine, I was just
imagining, like, prioritization,making sure that, you know, the
(07:18):
cable running to the, you know,the largest pieces of
infrastructure in our in ournation, specifically, I'm
thinking of office buildings,was that that traffic was
prioritized, right, you know,and that that makes sense,
because things need to run andso on and so forth. But now it's
shifted to everyone's houses,which was totally distributed
(07:39):
across everything, and, youknow, focusing in on making sure
that people in low access areasactually had access to, you
know, wireless, or, like I said,cable Fios is a product of
horizons, all these differentthings. And like, trying to
navigate all of this complexityat the same time was really,
(08:01):
really challenging. I will saythat that the company did a
really great job, but there arecompanies out there that didn't
do such a great job, like Ihave, you know, friends and
family that were in situationsthat were being forced to go
into offices when no one wasthere, because, and this is
maybe not the absolute tippy topof the pandemic, but you know,
as things went on, but beforevaccines were available, you
(08:23):
know, they were forced to gointo offices for what reason?
Not quite sure. You know, it wasreally, you know, it was
reminding me, like in thedot-com era, it was like
counting eyeballs was a metricof success for the early dot-com
companies. Like, were you justcounting eyeballs in the office
just to prove the fact thatyou're using the real estate,
because that's a metric youdecided you're gonna hit. I
(08:45):
don't know. Like, it
Amanda Jane Lee (08:46):
right, it's the butt-in-seat metric, yeah. Like,
who's at their desk?
Indra Klavins (08:51):
It's just so, it was so, like, like, what do you
care about? Like, this, they'resitting in front of a computer
all day long, but they, and halfof your staff it's okay for them
to be at home, and half of yourstaff that does the exact same
job has to go into the officelike I don't understand. And
it's yeah. Anyway, I've rambleda little bit, but that was
Amanda Jane Lee (09:12):
Yeah. I mean, it's navigating the complexity
specifically about the pandemic,right? Like navigating the
complexity that the entireworld, yeah, had to navigate,
yeah, plus navigating thecomplexity of, you know, working
at Verizon of, oh, this isactually critical, critical
(09:33):
structure, yeah, criticalinfrastructure. And it's just
like, well, you can't, you can'tjust be like, Well, I'm not
going to show up to work today?No, but you also have to
acknowledge that there is awhole world outside of the
Verizon virtual office.
Indra Klavins (09:49):
Yes, 100% and like I said, I think we struck
the beautiful ballads, becauseif people didn't have
connection, they couldn't zoomtheir loved ones and make sure.
They were okay and check onthem, and hospitals wouldn't get
the things that they need. Like,there's a lot of stuff like,
it's, it's, but at the same timeas individual people, you know,
(10:10):
I would, I think, like I said,what I like my sign up with,
"stay safe, stay sane and begentle with yourselves". I think
for every single zoom call, itwas whether it was like, what
two people that were on thecall, or if it was the entire
team, where it was like 500plus, right? You know, like,
stay safe. Stay safe.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:28):
Do you remember, like, the height of
the pandemic, where everyone wasjust, like, almost pretending
like everything was fine atwork? But
Indra Klavins (10:39):
I think that was, that was a collective denial,
like it was, like, it was, itwas like, a sure, this is
normal, right? But, you know,and I think that I will say it
like, right now in in the world,the world is going through a lot
Amanda Jane Lee (10:51):
Yeah, I was gonna say a lot of it varies
of different changes, you know,like, over the recent years, and
I think that the one thing thatmade me feel okay during the
pandemic. And I think isimportant for any leader,
regardless of what challengesare going on, whether it's a
hurricane or, you know,something else that's going on,
is to acknowledge that it'shappening. When you acknowledge
(11:14):
it, you name it, and you itgives everyone. They're like,
Oh, okay. They know that this ishard. Okay, cool. We will not
discuss it at all, but we willacknowledge that it's hard at
the very least, it's the bareminimum, right? Agreed, yeah.
And I think the best case iswhere you create the right kinds
of spaces for people to do alittle bit more than that very
(11:36):
just basic acknowledgement,right? And I don't know that can
take lots of different shapesand forms depending on the
organization scenario, depth ofyour relationship with that
person, you know?
based on the the context and thethe relationships that you have,
(11:57):
right? Just going back to thepersonal challenges there were,
there were co workers who, youknow, as they got to know me,
would would check in on me, justbe like, Hey, how are you doing?
Because a lot of things aren'tjust a one time event, right?
(12:19):
And I think it's easy to kind offorget that, because it's not
top of mind, yep, and as peoplegot to know me, they would check
in and be like, how are youdoing today? And just the
understanding that, like, notevery day is going to be a good
day. I mean, regardless ofwhat's going on in your personal
(12:39):
life, right? Like, even ifeverything is 100% like,
perfect, like, you're livingyour best life, you could wake
up one morning and just be like,today's not a good day.
Indra Klavins (12:50):
Yeah, I think life's lifeiness and grief comes
in waves and in unexpectedthings and whatever. You know, I
think that that's where one ofthe tools that I've seen, I've
seen it pre pandemic, but, youknow, really, it really took
hold at the during the pandemic,like, at the beginning of a
meeting, just doing a roundrobin, check in to everyone.
(13:11):
Like, thumbs up, thumbs to theside, thumbs down, right. Like,
that's a very basic like, howare you today? So I know how to
engage with you, you know, like,I know I'm like, oh, today's not
the day. I'm gonna push Amanda'sbuttons. She didn't sleep last
night. Cool, cool. You know, shedid. She slept fine last night,
by the way, folks. But you know,just as, just as one of the
basic examples of when I when Itell people, like, Hey, folks, I
(13:33):
didn't sleep well last night,like, just no button pushing
today. Like, you can give me thechallenges, but no button
pushing.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:39):
Yeah, that actually just reminded me of, I
think this was when we workedtogether. Our team meetings were
like, red, yellow, green. Howare you feeling today? And
instead of, we made it a littlefun, right? We were like, what?
We pulled up the the Pantonecolor. So
Indra Klavins (13:52):
I love, and that's, you know, I think that
that's, I think, making things alittle bit lighter and a little
bit not, not to not be, not notin a dismissive way. You want to
acknowledge that the life'slifeiness, but bringing in a
little bit of levity and makingit, you know, one of my
favorite, my one of my favoritequotes is from Steel Magnolias.
(14:14):
"Laughter through tears is myfavorite emotion", right? You
know, bringing that kind of, youknow, like, Yeah, I know it's
really tough, but like, can wedo just one little thing to just
make it not hurt quite so much?Pantone colors can be the way to
do it, or red, amber, green, orlike, you know, like, whatever,
like, I'm feeling, what kind ofanimal am I today? I don't know,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:36):
right?bJust going back to the acknowledging
that people are human,
Indra Klavins (14:41):
very much. So, very much. So there's, there's,
I don't think that there's, Idon't think there's enough of
that always. I mean, you don'twant to over lean in on that,
because we're not, we're not. Idon't care what anybody says,
unless there's some sort ofother, unless a true
relationship has been forgedoutside of the. Workplace, we're
not family, we're not trainedtherapists, we're not a lot of
(15:04):
things, but, but we are humanbeings who are in community,
whether we realize it or not,with our work colleagues, like
any time that more than,actually, maybe more than one
person gets together, right?It's a version of community. So,
yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:21):
yeah. So, you know, we talked about just
baseline, acknowledging thatwe're all humans, right. Have
you like do other examples cometo mind of tactics that people
can use to just tangible,actionable things that people
tools people can use to navigatethese kinds of scenarios.
Indra Klavins (15:46):
Yeah, I think you actually highlighted one of them
at the beginning. You know? Ithink it is about finding, like,
if you are the person who'shaving a tough day, finding that
one person that you can say to,hey, BT, Dubs, I'm having a
tough day, you know, and just sothat they know, so that you know
if a and you don't need to be,because sometimes you won't want
(16:10):
to disclose what's going on,right, for one reason or
another, I'd say, you know, justfind that one person you can
trust, so that they can Be youreyes, ears and be part of your
when I
Amanda Jane Lee (16:24):
say communication,
Indra Klavins (16:25):
yeah, because, like, what will happen is, like,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:25):
Yeah, that's a really good point, and I love
you know, it showed up from it.This has showed up for me more
when I've been a people manager,where somebody would say
something like, and then, youknow, another team member weave
any Oh, such and such as justnot doing like, hey, hey, hey,
they've got something going on.Like, oh, okay, I didn't know.
(16:45):
Yeah, yeah. Like, they're notbeing their typical selves
because they've got somethinggoing on, I've got, I've got,
and then then it flips theconversation. Like, oh my gosh.
How can I have like, no, no, Igot it covered. They've got it
covered. You know, we're incommunication. Just, you know,
just have a little patience. Ithink that that, to me, is one
(17:06):
of the as a person, tell thatone person that you trust so
they can help to protect you andkeep those raw parts of
yourself, you know, clear, I'dsay. But the other piece, which
goes hand in hand, is, don'tkeep it to yourself. Like, don't
keep it to yourself. Find thatperson because, you know, giving
it language always helps, butyou know, if you keep it to
(17:27):
yourself, no one will know, andthen that can backfire on you in
some other sort of way, in waysthat you couldn't have even
imagined, right which could, inthe worst case scenarios, lead
to a severing of thatrelationship. And nobody needs
that. So, you know, find theright way to find that right
person, even in the toughestorganization, I You can usually
(17:48):
find that person. That would bemy number one piece of advice as
a as a person, as an employee ofan organization or a member of a
team.
the way you articulated thatbecause as you were telling that
story, I thought of all thetimes where I knew that someone,
even not as a people manager, Ijust knew because of the
(18:11):
relationships I had with peopleat work, I knew that someone was
having a bad day, or there wassomething going on in someone's
life. And I've heard the like,you know, the chatter sometimes
after a meeting of just, like,what was this person thinking?
Like, when, when they said this,and it's just like, well, like,
just, so, you know, they're,it's not typical. They're in the
(18:33):
mug, yeah, yeah. It's fine.Like, just let that roll. It's
fine, yeah.
Indra Klavins (18:41):
And it's another one that came in and it left,
but yeah, I think that, likethat, to me, is number one, do
you have anything that comes tomind while I'm trying to
remember what, what popped inand popped
Amanda Jane Lee (18:51):
out? I think your second point was, what I
wanted to Yeah, was the was theadvice that I would give to
people, right? You don't have tobe an open book. Like, I just
happen to be one of thosepeople, right? Like, I'm an open
book. I whatever you want toknow about my personal life,
that's fine. I'll let you knowall the details of the crap
(19:14):
that's going on in my life. Butyeah, to as a person who's going
through a hard time, whetherthat's personally or, like,
pandemic related, or whatever itis, right? Like a hurricane is
coming your way, and yeah, andyou need to just take the day
off to prepare, I think, justletting people know that so that
(19:40):
you give them the permission togive you permission to take care
of your stuff once, once youacknowledge it, once you you let
someone know that this is what'shappening.
Indra Klavins (19:54):
And you led me right into the thing. As I was
writing, I'm like, oh, that'sthe thing I was thinking. I
think that so now, from the.People manager perspective, you
know, model the behaviors youwant to see, right? And it's
which, for me, is a lot moreexplicit than I would if I
wasn't necessarily a peoplemanager or more senior member of
the team, right? But it's like,Hey, I will, I'll tell everyone.
(20:15):
I'm like, Hey, I'm going throughthis today so that it gives
permission, like it givesimplicit permission. And then
the other thing, which is thecompanion, if you are in any
sort of leadership position,whether it's literally people
manager, or you're more senioror a more senior person in that
room, give people permission tobe humans explicitly. Say, Hey,
(20:35):
you know, I know that thehelicopter crashed in the
Hudson. That's our recent eventthat, you know, that was on the
national news right. Helicoptercrashed in the Hudson, and our
workplace is three blocks awayfrom there. I know you're all
distracted. You know, do yourbest to try and stay focused.
It's not impacting any of us.I've checked to make sure
(20:56):
there's no nobody knows thepeople that were involved in
that. But I also acknowledgethat, you know, this is a very
human experience, and ithappened very close to us. So,
like, I think that, you know,giving people that permission
and giving them the knowledge toactually, or giving that, giving
them the the method, or to to behumans, I think, is really
important when you have aposition of, I'm going to call
(21:17):
it power, because it is power.But, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:19):
yeah, yeah. You know, what came to mind for me
was, you know, as a peoplemanager, you know, if, if my dog
needed to go to the vet, I'mjust, like, I gotta go. Like,
she's not well, like, I gotta goand just modeling that behavior,
right? Just, you know, justdropping a note in the team
(21:41):
Slack channel, like, Hey, I'mgonna be offline for a few
hours, sorry. Like, I, you know,can someone cover this meeting
for me? I've, I've got somethings to take care of, and you
know that that gives people justmodeling that behavior, that
that makes it okay for people todo the same, right if something
comes up, if they need to pickup their sick kid from work,
(22:03):
from school, like, if they ifsomething just comes up, you you
give people, I keep on using theword permission, but it's like,
you don't permission, it'spermission, right? But you give
people the permission to belike, oh yeah, this, this thing
in my life, is more importantthan this meeting. Like, I've
(22:23):
got to go and like, I'm justgoing to tell you that I'm going
to go like, I'm not going to askyou. Like, hey, you know, my kid
needs to be picked up because ofwhatever. And like, can I go?
Like, No, I'm just going to goand like, I'm telling I'm
informing you.
I'm laughing because I'mthinking of a story. It was, it
was, it was many, many, manymoons ago, so over 15 years ago,
(22:48):
and trigger warning, so foreverybody. So I 15 years ago, I
wound up having cancer, kidneycancer, and as as we after it
was I identified, and before Iwas having surgery to have it
removed. You know, there was alitany of tests, which I won't
(23:09):
go into, but, you know, Iremember one day I just went
into or I emailed, I emailed HR,and I said, Hey, I'm taking this
date off. And they came back tome. They're like, you know,
usually the practices that youactually ask for the day off. I
said, I understand what thepractice is usually, but I'm
(23:32):
taking the day off. This is aday that they can schedule me. I
think in every other scenario, Itotally understand that. But
right now, for this moment oftime, I am taking the first
things that I can get when I canget them right, and I, you know,
I was, this is much earlier inmy career, and I unders, I
inherently understood the risksof breaking protocol and how
(23:55):
that could be. You know that thebacklash or the repercussions
that could come from that, butyou know, sometimes there are
things that matter more. Thereare things that matter more than
my paycheck. And I understandthat that's comes from a
tremendous place of privilegelike and I thank my lucky stars
every single day for theadvantages that I do have, you
(24:17):
know, and I don't take them forgranted. So I know that this is
not something that everybody cando. But you know, there are,
everyone will have theirscenario where it's like, I
don't care what the rules are.There are things that matter
more. I think that, you know,actually, I forgot when we were
talking about, when we wereidentifying this topic, I
brought up one of my favoritecore values from my time when I
(24:38):
was at TD Ameritrade, was peoplematter. And whenever somebody
would say, Hey, I can't come inbecause XYZ, I'm like, people
matter priorities. We'll see youtomorrow. No problem, right? But
sometimes you just need to dothat for yourself and say, Hey,
consequences be damned. My childmatters more. My pet matters
more. My spouse matters more. Imatter more, right? I
(24:59):
matter. Matter more, so I'm taking a mental
health day today. I matter more.I'm
Indra Klavins (25:04):
going to break I recognize this. I will be a
mess, and I will go beyondwhatever I can do. You know,
like I will, I will cause otherpeople to be miserable. I
understand this is zero notice,and I understand there will be
repercussions. I need to have amental health day today and a
conversation reprimand metomorrow.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:23):
Yeah, I think, I think that core value of
people matter sums up thisadvice. We'll call it of this
episode, right?
Unknown (25:34):
People matter. People matter. And I think that's a
lovely place for us to to endthings.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Indra Klavins (25:40):
Yeah. Amanda, thank you so much as always for
being my partner in all of thisin the messy middle as we
navigate yet another topic. AndI hope that everyone joins us
next time when we when weexplore something else. Bye,
everyone. Thanks.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:54):
Bye.
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