May 7, 2025 • 20 mins
"I know what that word means… but what do you mean by it?"
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into the surprisingly powerful skill of asking clarifying questions. Whether it's untangling workplace jargon, bridging communication gaps, or just making sure everyone’s on the same page, asking for context can transform how teams collaborate.
We explore the importance of shared understanding, the art of curiosity without judgment, and the sneaky barriers that keep people from speaking up. From why writing things down can make ideas more accessible to how fear of being wrong stops us from asking for clarity, this episode is a reminder that meaning isn’t universal and questions aren’t weakness, they’re wisdom.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I am good. How are you today?
Indra Klavins (00:21):
I'm good. I'm good. You know, I know we
decided that this episode wasabout context. But what did you
mean by that?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:30):
What did you mean by that? Indra, yeah,
Indra Klavins (00:33):
I tell you, you know, the amount of times that
Amanda and I are we so arehaving a prep calls? We have
prep calls on different daysthan we do our recording days
and on our prep calls, it'slike, Okay, our next hop is
gonna be x, and then we starttalking about, like, hold on.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:48):
Like, we both know what this word means, but
we both go a slightly differentdirection,
Indra Klavins (00:54):
different facets of it, different facets of what
that word means. And, you know,I think that that's the what's
important in all of this islike, and that's why we have
this episode, is like, theimportance and value of asking
clarifying questions, because weknow each other, we understand
each other. We have very similarworking styles, you know, very
similar backgrounds. But evenwith us, like, on a regular
(01:16):
basis, we're on a regular basis,like, every few weeks.
Consistent. We are consistent.We are consistent. But yeah, it
happens all the time. Happensall the damn time. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:29):
and I think that that's really what we want
to talk about, right? Like, justwhat kinds of questions should
you ask to ensure thateveryone's on the same page
about what we're supposed to donext, what we're what we're
aiming toward, like whatever thegoal of this conversation is.
(01:50):
Let's ensure that we're on thesame page before we start
Indra Klavins (01:54):
100% and I think that, you know, the thing that
comes to mind, actually, for me,is the word design. So I'm going
to rewind. I'm going to rewindthe hands of time. You know, I
spent seven years at TDAmeritrade, so I got a lot of
reference points from there. Soforgive me, folks, but it's,
yeah, it's where, you know, Iremember when we were bringing
(02:14):
in Agile, the time that it wassuccessful. Because, you know,
anyone has been on an agilejourney, agile is a program
management methodology, any onour there was a successful time,
and we were doing every singletime we would do backlog
grooming, which is an activityto figure out what work you're
going to be doing for the nextperiod of time. Somebody would
say, we need to do the design ofit. I'm like, what design, what
(02:38):
design I we need to addqualifiers, clarifiers, whatever
it is like. Are you talkingabout architectural design? Are
you talking about logicaldesign? Are you talking about
the, you know, just the businessdesign of it? Are you talking
about the UX design? Are youtalking about the UI design?
Like this is jargon suit for alot of people, if you're not in
in that particular space. Butthe whole point of it is, is
(03:00):
that you know, within every subteam, everyone could maybe
understand, like when you'retalking about the design, if
you're exposed to the project,if you're exposed to the
process, if you're supposed toeverything, you know what the
word design means, but you knowin that particular context, but
if you put it on a board andother people start to see it.
(03:22):
They may not understand whatthat is. And you know, that's
where in Agile, there is thiswhole idea of shared
understanding and, like, being alittle bit more explicit around
things. But design is one of my,one of my little bugaboos in my
life, regardless of whether I'vesupported an engineering team or
a design team or a product team,I'm like, You need to tell me
what kind of design we'retalking about here.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:41):
What's really funny is, when you said design,
I was like, What do you mean bydesign? Like, is it UX? Is it
UI? Is it like actual, like,design of a page, or is it
architecture? Is it design of adocument? Is it design of a
process? Like, design of what,
Indra Klavins (03:58):
design of what marketing design could be
anything you can design,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:02):
anything you could design anything. And
anyone who sees the word designlike you go into you know your
your weekly status update callwith a cross functional team,
and you're like, Okay, this weekwe're working on design,
Indra Klavins (04:18):
and there's a guest there, and it's an
executive who knows nothingabout the day to day. They're
like, Oh, they're doing thedesign, fantastic. When will I
see that? And you say, Oh, it'llbe ready next week, and you have
not clarified. What does thatexecutive mean by design?
Because I bet my bottom dollarthat the odds are against you
that you have the same thing inmind.
Amanda Jane Lee (04:39):
Yeah, it's the, what do you mean by that? Or of
what, I think those are our twolike go to clarifying questions
you and I,
Indra Klavins (04:51):
I think you're right. It's so it's so funny,
because I, as I'm looking at thetranscripts from any of our past
episodes. Like we have certainword patterns that you and I
both have, and that's exactlyit. That's some of them. That's
some of them. But you know, Ithink that you know when you're
looking for let's and let'sjust, we're riffing on design.
(05:13):
So let's go with that one. Likewhen you're trying to understand
what the person means by design,asking them in a way that won't
make them freak out. Is reallyan art and a skill unto itself.
Like it seems like such ainnocuous question, but if you
don't ask it in the right tone,in the right way, with the right
(05:36):
intention, it could actuallyderail the whole thing, right? I
feel like
Amanda Jane Lee (05:42):
more than two things, but two things can
happen, right? Like one, you askthe question and you make them
feel like they didn't explain itproperly, like you make them
feel dumb, for
Unknown (05:56):
lack of better word, right? Or the opposite
Amanda Jane Lee (06:00):
can happen. You ask the question and you make
them think that you're dumb andlike, you don't want that
either. And so you're right.There is an art, there is a
balance. There is a way to askthese questions that are just
neutral and like, tell me moreabout that, right? I think
Indra Klavins (06:19):
you use one of the you use one of them
actually, in the intro of this,right? It's, I know what that
word means for me. I just wantto make sure I'm 100% clear,
because I want to deliver on thething that you're expecting me
to deliver on. Can you just makesure and re tell me what the
definition of that is like, andthey'll be like, it's blah,
blah, blah. And what inevitablyhappens is that, you know, let's
(06:43):
assume there's a third person inthat conversation. The third
person says, Oh, I was thinkingit meant something altogether
different. So now you have threedifferent understandings of the
word design,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:53):
right? And so as you were saying that, it
just, it just reminded me,because, you know, we love a
good metaphor, right? Oh, we do.So you're so you're at a
restaurant, and you tell theserver, this is what I want
right here. Here are the fourthings that I want for dinner.
And the server repeats back toyou, hey, you wanted this, this,
this, and this is it cool, if Icourse it out. Do you want them
(07:16):
all at once? And it's, it'ssitting in that server mentality
of just like I heard the thing,let me just make sure I
understand the thing and maybeask a few more questions to make
sure that I'm going to deliverthe thing that you are
expecting, right?
Indra Klavins (07:32):
And what that also does is because, guess
what? We're all human beings,and we can make mistakes, and
sometimes the words that comeout of our mouth are not the
ones that we think we said. Whatthat does is it invites the
opportunity for there to be acorrection, right? You know,
like, oh yeah, no, I know I saidthat, you know, like, I'm sure
that I said that I wanted Cola,but, you know, what I really
(07:57):
wanted was ginger ale. I'm sosorry I said that, and you get
to make that correction. Like,everybody gets a say. I think
it's, it's about saving facetoo, right? You know? Like,
because nobody wants to feelfoolish. Nobody wants to feel
foolish,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:10):
yeah, yeah. And, you know, and because we're
all human, right? Like,sometimes we do change our
minds, right? And we're justthinking about the time, all the
times that I'm at a restaurant,back to the server mentality,
the restaurant metaphor, right?All of the times that matter.
Restaurant I order first, and,you know, whoever I'm eating
(08:31):
with, order something. I'm like,Oh, I actually, I want that side
instead. Exactly, and then theserver has an opportunity to be
like, okay, just so we're allclear, like, this is what you
all wanted, right? Let me repeatthat back to you,
Indra Klavins (08:49):
yeah. And I think a different version that I you
know, a different version, Ithink the workplace version of
repeating it back is writing itdown, yeah, yes, writing it
Amanda Jane Lee (08:58):
down, right? So what, yeah, what I like to do
during meetings is, if I'm ifI'm the designated note taker,
right? Usually, if I'm the onerunning the meeting, I will open
up a note stock, and I willshare my screen, and I will give
everyone the opportunity to seewhat I am writing down. And just
(09:21):
give everyone that opportunityto react to it or correct it, or
just like, hey, Amanda. Like,actually what what I said and
what you wrote down, not thesame,
Indra Klavins (09:30):
cool, yeah. And I'm being said, thank you. Thank
you. Like, I'm glad, I'm glad Iwrote it down then Right, right?
And I think you set up onescenario, and I know that who
should take notes and why theyshould take notes is probably a
topic of of its own, and it'sits own episode. But if you are
in a position where you don'twant to be the official note
(09:52):
taker, or you're not theofficial note taker, or no one's
taking notes, or whatever itmight be like if I if I'm by
myself in those. Arrows. WhatI'll often say is, Hey guys, you
guys know that I just love towrite things down for myself. I
just want to make sure that whatI'm taking for myself, or what
I'm sketching on thiswhiteboard, or what I'm doing is
(10:13):
what you guys have in mind. JustJust, just make sure that my
work is right, you know, right.And I'll share my screen, or
I'll get up to the whiteboard.Now, literally write on the
whiteboard what I'm thinking,and that's the opportunity to to
be there. And I often, in thesescenarios, my approach for
better, where sometimes there'spros and cons to it, is a very
(10:34):
like, hey, it's just me, youknow, like, I'm just trying to
do this. A very selfdeprecating, which, again, has
got a downside to it, but theupside of it is like, hey, it
softens the blow. It letseverybody react to it. And I
think that also the reason thatI often do find myself being the
person writing things down, itgoes back to something that you
(10:57):
said earlier. People are afraidof being wrong, you know, and
when you write it down, they andthey're the ones doing the
writing or the typing or thewhatever, and people are judging
their spelling or theirhandwriting or whatever. If you
can take that, if you're in aposition to take that and just
like, hey, let me write it downfor you. Like, let me, let me do
(11:18):
this. Like, I'm going to do youthe favor so that it doesn't
become an expectation, right?But, like, let me do everybody a
favor. I'm going to write thisdown,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:26):
yeah? And I think that opens the
opportunity, like, it opens thedoor for collaboration, yeah,
shared understanding, yes,
Indra Klavins (11:34):
right? Yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:36):
yes. Oh, it gives something to something for
people to react to.
Indra Klavins (11:41):
And it focus. It strangely, it focuses the darn
conversation too. Because whenthere is a literal focus of the
vision, people tend to stay ontopic more and you tend to get
to decisions more quickly.
Amanda Jane Lee (11:59):
Yeah, and I think, and we might have talked
about this in our words matterepisode, right? But I think it's
important to start off with thatshared understanding, otherwise,
that divergence andunderstanding can snowball as
the conversation goes on. Ifyou're let's go back to the word
(12:20):
design. If there's three peoplein the room and they all they
all three of them have adifferent understanding of what
we mean by design, the contextof the rest of the conversation
changes. I
Indra Klavins (12:32):
think what I'm going to add to show notes is
the Jeff Patton photos from likefrom agile. He's one of the
famous agile trainers that's outthere. He's got this photo of
different people havingdifferent people having
different things in theirthought bubbles. They write it
down, and then they come to aconclusion of what it should be,
because it's it is important.Like you're you're minimizing
your risk, you're minimizingyour risk and your waste, if you
(12:54):
do that sooner rather thanlater. So, yeah, totally. And
I'd say the the last thing thatI think that, like, why people
also love keeping things likeverbal, is two things, like,
they but they both, they're bothrooted in a fear of commitment.
Like, they want to be able tochange their mind and let me
just, like, if you don't writeit down, then like, I can, like,
(13:15):
I can tell you, like, whetherthey're conscious of it or not.
Like, I can tell you tomorrowthat I actually didn't ask for
that. Like, no, I wrote it down.We all saw it right, and it lets
you move forward, but, but, youknow, but at the end of the day,
it all starts with just likeasking for clarity, asking for
things in a really skillful way,you find, I mean, we've shared,
(13:36):
so I've shared some of this, mytools in tactics, Amanda shared
some of hers. But you need tofind your own, your own path
towards, towards getting theasking those questions and
getting the answers that are outthere, like experiment with it.
Yeah, I, you
Amanda Jane Lee (13:51):
know, just going back to your self
deprecation as a strategy, I'm abit of the same way of just
like, You know what? I'm justgoing to assume that I am not
the smartest person in thisroom. I'm going to raise my hand
and I'm going to ask, What doyou mean by that, Indra?
Because, like, I don't quiteunderstand. Can you explain that
(14:13):
to me in different words, justso that we're all just so that
I'm on the same page as you?
Indra Klavins (14:19):
And then what inevitably happens is someone
else in the room over like chatmessage, whether using Slack or
something else. Oh, my God, Iwas wondering the same thing
that I was afraid. You'rewelcome. You're welcome. You can
always count on me for that.You're welcome,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:34):
right? Of just like I'm I'm going to pretend
that I don't know what whatwe're talking about here. I'm
pretty sure your definition ofdesign here, in this context is,
you know, the design of we'llcall it the web page, sure. But
could it mean the design of thearchitecture? There's an
engineer here, so they might,they might interpret it as that.
(14:56):
But just so we're on the samepage Indra. What. Do you mean by
that, database
Indra Klavins (15:02):
design something altogether different? What? Not
an architecture designerdatabase, but you know, I'd say
the other thing, you know, noteveryone has, and not every
scenario will afford itself toyou be to everyone being able to
ask those clarifying questions.So like the thing, few tools and
tips for if you are in that thatpower dynamic where you can't or
(15:27):
it's in that situation whereit's not graceful for you to be
able to ask the question, I'dsay, you know, two things come
to mind. One is, hey, messageyour friend who does have that,
you know, does have thatsituational power or ability to
ask the question on your behalf,or they might be able to answer
(15:49):
for you. Hey, they mean blah,blah, blah. I'll just say it out
loud so everyone can say, okay,so great. We have this defined
for the database design. Whatare we doing for the whatever
and that will that's actuallyanother way to ask the question
without, you know, asking thequestions. Just make an explicit
answer be like, Okay, great. Iheard you. And what I heard is,
we're doing database design. Youjust use the word design, but I
(16:09):
heard database design. That'sone way find a friend, find a
friend who can say it, oractually, in some scenarios, you
may not be able to ask thatquestion in that room, like I'm
thinking of like, you know,let's say you're in a town hall
and you know, your CEO is sayingsomething. You're like, what are
they talking about? Or, youknow, like, I have no idea. Keep
(16:33):
it to yourself and have aconversation on the side
afterwards to get thatclarification. If there needs to
be a correction that's madeafterwards because a co misspoke
or, or you know that can bemade, or if you know, after
having an outside conversation,let's say the comms person for
that organization, thatcommunications person that
(16:53):
organization say, oh, I can seehow people get confused. I'll
include that in the meetingrecap, right? There's, there's
other ways like that are not inthe moment. I don't know if
anything comes to mind for
Amanda Jane Lee (17:05):
you as you were going through those things. What
came to mind for me was ifyou're in a meeting. I think
setting the ground rules of themeeting would be helpful, right?
Like if you're the one runningthe meeting, or if you know
someone, if you know the personrunning the meeting right, the
person setting the stage, maybejust, hey, Indra, like you're
(17:29):
running this meeting. Could youexplicitly say, like, if there
are questions that come up alongthe way, like, please raise your
hand and we'll, you know, andwe'll address them. Or, you
know, you could just say, ifthere are questions along the
way, like, keep them for theend, right? But just like
setting those rules for for howto ask those questions, and like
(17:51):
it creating that space to askthose questions,
Indra Klavins (17:54):
I think the creation of the space, I think,
is the best, the most importantthing of all the all the things
you said are great. I think thatthe creation of space for the
invitation for questions, Ithink, is really important. It
also, it also democratizesthings. It also gives everybody
a chance to to expressthemselves, you know, and you
know, don't worry about like, Ithink that some people might
(18:18):
hear that like, oh my gosh, thisperson X, Y and Z is always
asking questions. Or, oh mygosh, I'm afraid that my intern
is going to ask an inappropriatequestion. Or, oh my gosh, you
know, like, there's so manydifferent, you know, scenarios
like there, you can handle thosein a different way with
different tools and tactics. Andif that's something that our
listeners really want to listento, you know, listen some as a
(18:38):
topic. Let us know through ourfeedback for in the messy middle
matters.com/feedback, you know,let us know if that's something
to explore. But you know, that'snot just because fear should not
stop you from creating thatinvitation. There are tools,
strategies, techniques, to keepit from being a dumping ground
of inappropriate questions,conversation, noise, whatever it
(19:02):
might be, so Right? And, I
Amanda Jane Lee (19:03):
mean, we don't have to get into it, but the
most simple is like, well, let'stable that.
Indra Klavins (19:08):
Let's table it. Oh, I love a parking lot. Yeah,
I love a parking lot, yeah.Parking lot, for those listening
who are not familiar, isliterally a piece of paper on
the wall or a notes document ofa bulleted list of the things
that we somebody brought up, butwe're literally not talking
about right now. And I thinkactually that might be a good
topic, is parking lots and thevalue of them. But anyway, any
(19:31):
other final closing thoughts orthings that we haven't explored,
Amanda, that you wanted to makesure we got to not a
Amanda Jane Lee (19:37):
closing thought, but just the thought,
yeah, like when you when youwhen you said, I'm afraid that
so and so's gonna ask so manyquestions. I had to stop myself
from laughing, because anyonewho's ever worked with me knows
that I asked so many questions.So yes, create the space to ask
questions for people like me.
Indra Klavins (19:57):
Create the space so. So thank you so much again
for being being my partner inthis and thank you to everyone
for listening. We look forwardto you joining us next time when
we discuss another topic for themessy middle Bye, everyone.
Bye. .
I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I am good. How are you today?
Indra Klavins (00:21):
I'm good. I'm good. You know, I know we
decided that this episode wasabout context. But what did you
mean by that?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:30):
What did you mean by that? Indra, yeah,
Indra Klavins (00:33):
I tell you, you know, the amount of times that
Amanda and I are we so arehaving a prep calls? We have
prep calls on different daysthan we do our recording days
and on our prep calls, it'slike, Okay, our next hop is
gonna be x, and then we starttalking about, like, hold on.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:48):
Like, we both know what this word means, but
we both go a slightly differentdirection,
Indra Klavins (00:54):
different facets of it, different facets of what
that word means. And, you know,I think that that's the what's
important in all of this islike, and that's why we have
this episode, is like, theimportance and value of asking
clarifying questions, because weknow each other, we understand
each other. We have very similarworking styles, you know, very
similar backgrounds. But evenwith us, like, on a regular
(01:16):
basis, we're on a regular basis,like, every few weeks.
Consistent. We are consistent.We are consistent. But yeah, it
happens all the time. Happensall the damn time. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:29):
and I think that that's really what we want
to talk about, right? Like, justwhat kinds of questions should
you ask to ensure thateveryone's on the same page
about what we're supposed to donext, what we're what we're
aiming toward, like whatever thegoal of this conversation is.
(01:50):
Let's ensure that we're on thesame page before we start
Indra Klavins (01:54):
100% and I think that, you know, the thing that
comes to mind, actually, for me,is the word design. So I'm going
to rewind. I'm going to rewindthe hands of time. You know, I
spent seven years at TDAmeritrade, so I got a lot of
reference points from there. Soforgive me, folks, but it's,
yeah, it's where, you know, Iremember when we were bringing
(02:14):
in Agile, the time that it wassuccessful. Because, you know,
anyone has been on an agilejourney, agile is a program
management methodology, any onour there was a successful time,
and we were doing every singletime we would do backlog
grooming, which is an activityto figure out what work you're
going to be doing for the nextperiod of time. Somebody would
say, we need to do the design ofit. I'm like, what design, what
(02:38):
design I we need to addqualifiers, clarifiers, whatever
it is like. Are you talkingabout architectural design? Are
you talking about logicaldesign? Are you talking about
the, you know, just the businessdesign of it? Are you talking
about the UX design? Are youtalking about the UI design?
Like this is jargon suit for alot of people, if you're not in
in that particular space. Butthe whole point of it is, is
(03:00):
that you know, within every subteam, everyone could maybe
understand, like when you'retalking about the design, if
you're exposed to the project,if you're exposed to the
process, if you're supposed toeverything, you know what the
word design means, but you knowin that particular context, but
if you put it on a board andother people start to see it.
(03:22):
They may not understand whatthat is. And you know, that's
where in Agile, there is thiswhole idea of shared
understanding and, like, being alittle bit more explicit around
things. But design is one of my,one of my little bugaboos in my
life, regardless of whether I'vesupported an engineering team or
a design team or a product team,I'm like, You need to tell me
what kind of design we'retalking about here.
Amanda Jane Lee (03:41):
What's really funny is, when you said design,
I was like, What do you mean bydesign? Like, is it UX? Is it
UI? Is it like actual, like,design of a page, or is it
architecture? Is it design of adocument? Is it design of a
process? Like, design of what,
Indra Klavins (03:58):
design of what marketing design could be
anything you can design,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:02):
anything you could design anything. And
anyone who sees the word designlike you go into you know your
your weekly status update callwith a cross functional team,
and you're like, Okay, this weekwe're working on design,
Indra Klavins (04:18):
and there's a guest there, and it's an
executive who knows nothingabout the day to day. They're
like, Oh, they're doing thedesign, fantastic. When will I
see that? And you say, Oh, it'llbe ready next week, and you have
not clarified. What does thatexecutive mean by design?
Because I bet my bottom dollarthat the odds are against you
that you have the same thing inmind.
Amanda Jane Lee (04:39):
Yeah, it's the, what do you mean by that? Or of
what, I think those are our twolike go to clarifying questions
you and I,
Indra Klavins (04:51):
I think you're right. It's so it's so funny,
because I, as I'm looking at thetranscripts from any of our past
episodes. Like we have certainword patterns that you and I
both have, and that's exactlyit. That's some of them. That's
some of them. But you know, Ithink that you know when you're
looking for let's and let'sjust, we're riffing on design.
(05:13):
So let's go with that one. Likewhen you're trying to understand
what the person means by design,asking them in a way that won't
make them freak out. Is reallyan art and a skill unto itself.
Like it seems like such ainnocuous question, but if you
don't ask it in the right tone,in the right way, with the right
(05:36):
intention, it could actuallyderail the whole thing, right? I
feel like
Amanda Jane Lee (05:42):
more than two things, but two things can
happen, right? Like one, you askthe question and you make them
feel like they didn't explain itproperly, like you make them
feel dumb, for
Unknown (05:56):
lack of better word, right? Or the opposite
Amanda Jane Lee (06:00):
can happen. You ask the question and you make
them think that you're dumb andlike, you don't want that
either. And so you're right.There is an art, there is a
balance. There is a way to askthese questions that are just
neutral and like, tell me moreabout that, right? I think
Indra Klavins (06:19):
you use one of the you use one of them
actually, in the intro of this,right? It's, I know what that
word means for me. I just wantto make sure I'm 100% clear,
because I want to deliver on thething that you're expecting me
to deliver on. Can you just makesure and re tell me what the
definition of that is like, andthey'll be like, it's blah,
blah, blah. And what inevitablyhappens is that, you know, let's
(06:43):
assume there's a third person inthat conversation. The third
person says, Oh, I was thinkingit meant something altogether
different. So now you have threedifferent understandings of the
word design,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:53):
right? And so as you were saying that, it
just, it just reminded me,because, you know, we love a
good metaphor, right? Oh, we do.So you're so you're at a
restaurant, and you tell theserver, this is what I want
right here. Here are the fourthings that I want for dinner.
And the server repeats back toyou, hey, you wanted this, this,
this, and this is it cool, if Icourse it out. Do you want them
(07:16):
all at once? And it's, it'ssitting in that server mentality
of just like I heard the thing,let me just make sure I
understand the thing and maybeask a few more questions to make
sure that I'm going to deliverthe thing that you are
expecting, right?
Indra Klavins (07:32):
And what that also does is because, guess
what? We're all human beings,and we can make mistakes, and
sometimes the words that comeout of our mouth are not the
ones that we think we said. Whatthat does is it invites the
opportunity for there to be acorrection, right? You know,
like, oh yeah, no, I know I saidthat, you know, like, I'm sure
that I said that I wanted Cola,but, you know, what I really
(07:57):
wanted was ginger ale. I'm sosorry I said that, and you get
to make that correction. Like,everybody gets a say. I think
it's, it's about saving facetoo, right? You know? Like,
because nobody wants to feelfoolish. Nobody wants to feel
foolish,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:10):
yeah, yeah. And, you know, and because we're
all human, right? Like,sometimes we do change our
minds, right? And we're justthinking about the time, all the
times that I'm at a restaurant,back to the server mentality,
the restaurant metaphor, right?All of the times that matter.
Restaurant I order first, and,you know, whoever I'm eating
(08:31):
with, order something. I'm like,Oh, I actually, I want that side
instead. Exactly, and then theserver has an opportunity to be
like, okay, just so we're allclear, like, this is what you
all wanted, right? Let me repeatthat back to you,
Indra Klavins (08:49):
yeah. And I think a different version that I you
know, a different version, Ithink the workplace version of
repeating it back is writing itdown, yeah, yes, writing it
Amanda Jane Lee (08:58):
down, right? So what, yeah, what I like to do
during meetings is, if I'm ifI'm the designated note taker,
right? Usually, if I'm the onerunning the meeting, I will open
up a note stock, and I willshare my screen, and I will give
everyone the opportunity to seewhat I am writing down. And just
(09:21):
give everyone that opportunityto react to it or correct it, or
just like, hey, Amanda. Like,actually what what I said and
what you wrote down, not thesame,
Indra Klavins (09:30):
cool, yeah. And I'm being said, thank you. Thank
you. Like, I'm glad, I'm glad Iwrote it down then Right, right?
And I think you set up onescenario, and I know that who
should take notes and why theyshould take notes is probably a
topic of of its own, and it'sits own episode. But if you are
in a position where you don'twant to be the official note
(09:52):
taker, or you're not theofficial note taker, or no one's
taking notes, or whatever itmight be like if I if I'm by
myself in those. Arrows. WhatI'll often say is, Hey guys, you
guys know that I just love towrite things down for myself. I
just want to make sure that whatI'm taking for myself, or what
I'm sketching on thiswhiteboard, or what I'm doing is
(10:13):
what you guys have in mind. JustJust, just make sure that my
work is right, you know, right.And I'll share my screen, or
I'll get up to the whiteboard.Now, literally write on the
whiteboard what I'm thinking,and that's the opportunity to to
be there. And I often, in thesescenarios, my approach for
better, where sometimes there'spros and cons to it, is a very
(10:34):
like, hey, it's just me, youknow, like, I'm just trying to
do this. A very selfdeprecating, which, again, has
got a downside to it, but theupside of it is like, hey, it
softens the blow. It letseverybody react to it. And I
think that also the reason thatI often do find myself being the
person writing things down, itgoes back to something that you
(10:57):
said earlier. People are afraidof being wrong, you know, and
when you write it down, they andthey're the ones doing the
writing or the typing or thewhatever, and people are judging
their spelling or theirhandwriting or whatever. If you
can take that, if you're in aposition to take that and just
like, hey, let me write it downfor you. Like, let me, let me do
(11:18):
this. Like, I'm going to do youthe favor so that it doesn't
become an expectation, right?But, like, let me do everybody a
favor. I'm going to write thisdown,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:26):
yeah? And I think that opens the
opportunity, like, it opens thedoor for collaboration, yeah,
shared understanding, yes,
Indra Klavins (11:34):
right? Yes,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:36):
yes. Oh, it gives something to something for
people to react to.
Indra Klavins (11:41):
And it focus. It strangely, it focuses the darn
conversation too. Because whenthere is a literal focus of the
vision, people tend to stay ontopic more and you tend to get
to decisions more quickly.
Amanda Jane Lee (11:59):
Yeah, and I think, and we might have talked
about this in our words matterepisode, right? But I think it's
important to start off with thatshared understanding, otherwise,
that divergence andunderstanding can snowball as
the conversation goes on. Ifyou're let's go back to the word
(12:20):
design. If there's three peoplein the room and they all they
all three of them have adifferent understanding of what
we mean by design, the contextof the rest of the conversation
changes. I
Indra Klavins (12:32):
think what I'm going to add to show notes is
the Jeff Patton photos from likefrom agile. He's one of the
famous agile trainers that's outthere. He's got this photo of
different people havingdifferent people having
different things in theirthought bubbles. They write it
down, and then they come to aconclusion of what it should be,
because it's it is important.Like you're you're minimizing
your risk, you're minimizingyour risk and your waste, if you
(12:54):
do that sooner rather thanlater. So, yeah, totally. And
I'd say the the last thing thatI think that, like, why people
also love keeping things likeverbal, is two things, like,
they but they both, they're bothrooted in a fear of commitment.
Like, they want to be able tochange their mind and let me
just, like, if you don't writeit down, then like, I can, like,
(13:15):
I can tell you, like, whetherthey're conscious of it or not.
Like, I can tell you tomorrowthat I actually didn't ask for
that. Like, no, I wrote it down.We all saw it right, and it lets
you move forward, but, but, youknow, but at the end of the day,
it all starts with just likeasking for clarity, asking for
things in a really skillful way,you find, I mean, we've shared,
(13:36):
so I've shared some of this, mytools in tactics, Amanda shared
some of hers. But you need tofind your own, your own path
towards, towards getting theasking those questions and
getting the answers that are outthere, like experiment with it.
Yeah, I, you
Amanda Jane Lee (13:51):
know, just going back to your self
deprecation as a strategy, I'm abit of the same way of just
like, You know what? I'm justgoing to assume that I am not
the smartest person in thisroom. I'm going to raise my hand
and I'm going to ask, What doyou mean by that, Indra?
Because, like, I don't quiteunderstand. Can you explain that
(14:13):
to me in different words, justso that we're all just so that
I'm on the same page as you?
Indra Klavins (14:19):
And then what inevitably happens is someone
else in the room over like chatmessage, whether using Slack or
something else. Oh, my God, Iwas wondering the same thing
that I was afraid. You'rewelcome. You're welcome. You can
always count on me for that.You're welcome,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:34):
right? Of just like I'm I'm going to pretend
that I don't know what whatwe're talking about here. I'm
pretty sure your definition ofdesign here, in this context is,
you know, the design of we'llcall it the web page, sure. But
could it mean the design of thearchitecture? There's an
engineer here, so they might,they might interpret it as that.
(14:56):
But just so we're on the samepage Indra. What. Do you mean by
that, database
Indra Klavins (15:02):
design something altogether different? What? Not
an architecture designerdatabase, but you know, I'd say
the other thing, you know, noteveryone has, and not every
scenario will afford itself toyou be to everyone being able to
ask those clarifying questions.So like the thing, few tools and
tips for if you are in that thatpower dynamic where you can't or
(15:27):
it's in that situation whereit's not graceful for you to be
able to ask the question, I'dsay, you know, two things come
to mind. One is, hey, messageyour friend who does have that,
you know, does have thatsituational power or ability to
ask the question on your behalf,or they might be able to answer
(15:49):
for you. Hey, they mean blah,blah, blah. I'll just say it out
loud so everyone can say, okay,so great. We have this defined
for the database design. Whatare we doing for the whatever
and that will that's actuallyanother way to ask the question
without, you know, asking thequestions. Just make an explicit
answer be like, Okay, great. Iheard you. And what I heard is,
we're doing database design. Youjust use the word design, but I
(16:09):
heard database design. That'sone way find a friend, find a
friend who can say it, oractually, in some scenarios, you
may not be able to ask thatquestion in that room, like I'm
thinking of like, you know,let's say you're in a town hall
and you know, your CEO is sayingsomething. You're like, what are
they talking about? Or, youknow, like, I have no idea. Keep
(16:33):
it to yourself and have aconversation on the side
afterwards to get thatclarification. If there needs to
be a correction that's madeafterwards because a co misspoke
or, or you know that can bemade, or if you know, after
having an outside conversation,let's say the comms person for
that organization, thatcommunications person that
(16:53):
organization say, oh, I can seehow people get confused. I'll
include that in the meetingrecap, right? There's, there's
other ways like that are not inthe moment. I don't know if
anything comes to mind for
Amanda Jane Lee (17:05):
you as you were going through those things. What
came to mind for me was ifyou're in a meeting. I think
setting the ground rules of themeeting would be helpful, right?
Like if you're the one runningthe meeting, or if you know
someone, if you know the personrunning the meeting right, the
person setting the stage, maybejust, hey, Indra, like you're
(17:29):
running this meeting. Could youexplicitly say, like, if there
are questions that come up alongthe way, like, please raise your
hand and we'll, you know, andwe'll address them. Or, you
know, you could just say, ifthere are questions along the
way, like, keep them for theend, right? But just like
setting those rules for for howto ask those questions, and like
(17:51):
it creating that space to askthose questions,
Indra Klavins (17:54):
I think the creation of the space, I think,
is the best, the most importantthing of all the all the things
you said are great. I think thatthe creation of space for the
invitation for questions, Ithink, is really important. It
also, it also democratizesthings. It also gives everybody
a chance to to expressthemselves, you know, and you
know, don't worry about like, Ithink that some people might
(18:18):
hear that like, oh my gosh, thisperson X, Y and Z is always
asking questions. Or, oh mygosh, I'm afraid that my intern
is going to ask an inappropriatequestion. Or, oh my gosh, you
know, like, there's so manydifferent, you know, scenarios
like there, you can handle thosein a different way with
different tools and tactics. Andif that's something that our
listeners really want to listento, you know, listen some as a
(18:38):
topic. Let us know through ourfeedback for in the messy middle
matters.com/feedback, you know,let us know if that's something
to explore. But you know, that'snot just because fear should not
stop you from creating thatinvitation. There are tools,
strategies, techniques, to keepit from being a dumping ground
of inappropriate questions,conversation, noise, whatever it
(19:02):
might be, so Right? And, I
Amanda Jane Lee (19:03):
mean, we don't have to get into it, but the
most simple is like, well, let'stable that.
Indra Klavins (19:08):
Let's table it. Oh, I love a parking lot. Yeah,
I love a parking lot, yeah.Parking lot, for those listening
who are not familiar, isliterally a piece of paper on
the wall or a notes document ofa bulleted list of the things
that we somebody brought up, butwe're literally not talking
about right now. And I thinkactually that might be a good
topic, is parking lots and thevalue of them. But anyway, any
(19:31):
other final closing thoughts orthings that we haven't explored,
Amanda, that you wanted to makesure we got to not a
Amanda Jane Lee (19:37):
closing thought, but just the thought,
yeah, like when you when youwhen you said, I'm afraid that
so and so's gonna ask so manyquestions. I had to stop myself
from laughing, because anyonewho's ever worked with me knows
that I asked so many questions.So yes, create the space to ask
questions for people like me.
Indra Klavins (19:57):
Create the space so. So thank you so much again
for being being my partner inthis and thank you to everyone
for listening. We look forwardto you joining us next time when
we discuss another topic for themessy middle Bye, everyone.
Bye. .
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